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| Username | Post |
| oys_chill | Posted
on 12-Nov-03 08:17 PM
"Oyss Oyss!" My sister's exuberance drummed my ears. "La herr, Sai Baba ko prasad." She was going beserk.The evening before, everyone was worried bout her chronic cough that wouldn't stop. Suddenly, she came down and exclaimed to all of us that she had mixed Sai baba's bibhuti with honey, and drank it and the cough vanished. The very next day, my two sisters went for "Bhajan-Kirtan" in Sanepa to a house where Sai Baba made his appearance frequently. "Gadha! dekhis yo?" My sister went on. "La herr "OM" lekheko yo suntala ma." I observed it closely. Indeed, there was a sharply indented "OM" in Devanagari. Wow! I exclaimed. My sisters sweared that that it just appeared on the orange next to where they had been sitting. I gave a quizzical look at my younger sister to see her reaction. By now,she had turned into a devout "bhakta" herself. My older sister was going around the household, shouting to neighbors and people on the street about the presence of divinity in Kathmandu. "Dekhis Oyss! aaba ta biswas lagcha?" My sister came back. "La laga" she put the white bibhuti on my forehead. She seemed so happy and upbeat. With my sheer curiosity building up, I asked her "oiee didi, yo herr ta!" They came near me "hoina, yedi yo,sai baba le nai deko bhayo, yo kina yesto Sharp lined, kina tv ma dekhako jasto SMOOTH OM chaina?" My sister got enraged. "Gadha......tyai bhayera tero ahile samma America ma namileko!she snapped the orange from my hand and squealed a little as her words faded. I felt awfully bad. I had never questioned anyone's faith before.I was overcome with guilt. My sister was down but not out, she came back after a few minutes and blurted a single line at me "KUKUR! TERo LAGI BHANERA, SAI BABA le DINCHA NI SMOOTH SMOOTH OM" :) ********* I had games on Thursdays. Exhausted and hungry, I got off the bus in tangal ganesthan. Unusually, there was a huge crpwd buzzing with excitement. I was bewildered and amused. "Handidaon ko jatra ko time ta bhachaina" I thought to myself. There were also plenty of vendors selling icecream, chana chat pat and what not. The atmosphere was festive. "Oysss!" My sister's fading voice could be heard from the crowd. Soon, my two sisters along with Shivani emerged from the madding crowd."Oyss sunis, k bhayo yaha?" my sister stopped to catch a breath."K bhayo?" I asked indifferently with eyes transfixed on shivani, who looked dazzling in the evening. "Ganesh le doodh khayo!" my sister shouted enthusiastically. I was drawn towards the ganesthan where a large crowd had gathered to witness and be part of this divine moment of epic proportion. Everyone held their nerve as an old lady, held a tea spoon filled with milk and the milk disappeared in front of our very eyes. Everyone exclaimed and started shouting slogans "Ganesh bhagwan ko JAI JAI! My sister slightly brushed with her shoulders to me "Dekhis ta!" ********** Everyone was glued to tv' and radio as news poured in from all over the world of this unique phenomenon of ganesh's statue drinking milk. People were making all sorts of generalizations. Some believed that only holy ppl's milk would be consumed by the divine god. Some said that "bhagwan nepal ko dukha dekhna nasakera, sawari hoi baksyo". Everyone had their own version of what was going on.Some thought it was the end of mankind and were ready to go to pasupatinath to see the water level on kalki. My sister was determined to test her holiness herself. Though I didn't wanna tag along, I dragged myself perking up seeing that Shivani was gonna come with us. Those few fleeting moments of seeing her was far more important to me than seeing statue consume dairy milk.We bought a packet of milk in a store nearby and rushed towards the ganesthan in the fading light. The crowd had died out. We still had to wait another fifteen minutes or so, as people continued to prove they were holy. Finally our turn came. "Chamcha lyachas Oys?" "Huh?" I remembered suddenly that she had asked me to grab a spoon just before we left."Kaile bhanis chamcha bokk bhanera?" I tried to refute back. "Gadha, kata rahancha tero dhyan pani!" she slightly ran her eyes over me and shivani and got back to opening the packet. She tried to put little milk in her hand..but now Ganesh was hesitant. Nothing was happening. My sister was getting to blush. As more and more people continued to gather, she finally gave up,she opened the packet and let the entire packet flow from the top. "aaaa...sable khuwada khuwada, tanna bhayo hola" she was really into it. ************** (to be contd.) |
| oys_chill | Posted
on 12-Nov-03 08:18 PM
The next few days, the news made headlines in major newspapers. Some politicians like always believed that there was some kind of conspiracy going on in kathmandu, while others were just in bliss,that Kathmandu the city of gods, had finally held true to its name. Few more days and the enigma was solved abruptly much to the disappointment of my sister. By using simple laws of physics and surface tension, scientists were able to show how such statues can take up fluids. THis was broadcasted in NTV, so noone could really refute its credibility. So much for witnessing god's charm. The excitement was over. We had to concentrate back to our studies and mundane work. Guff Suffs in loadshedding about possible end of the world was over. It sucked. It sucked the most cause shivani stopped coming with her mom to discuss these possible tales. ************** Another week went by. My sister confined herself to posters of Sai Baba. I stopped questioning her practice and faith. It was helping her to be positive, happy and upbeat. That was more important than trying to distinguish between the right and the wrong. Placebo effect was doing wonders for my sister, especially her health which was big concern. That thursday night, I got off the bus, surprisingly to a deserted ganesthan. I wished there was another such spam. Shivani would then again be able to come to our house. I was lost in my dreamworld. As I walked past the "chata" of ganesh, my hands reached out unconsciously to the statue and I took a bow. Suddenly, I realized, there was a man sitting by Ganesh's statue mumbling. I went nearby and watched the man from behind. "oiee ganesh, dudh matra kati khanchas, laa laa beer pani kha" he was a drunkard playing with a bottle of iceberg. I was angry at first but at the same time very much fascinated by this guy's behaviour.To my amazement, he even had a spoon with him. Shaking back and forth, he put some beer in the spoon and and rested it at the trunk of the statue and waited. All of a sudden, he exclaimed "oieee M***, sanchikai piyo." His intoxication seemed to have vanished. He looked around for someone to share his piece of magic. At this moment, I turned around and took a brisk walk towards the "Gulli"i that led to my home. "oiee bhai oiee bhai",he called back at me "khayo bhanya sanchikai, beer khayo." I didn't dare to turn back again. After this, I eventually started to take a bow at Ganesh, in the mornings and in the evenings. |
| roc1432 | Posted
on 12-Nov-03 10:09 PM
Another one of ur never ending .... wonderful.... memory lanes...;) "aaaa...sable khuwada khuwada, tanna bhayo hola" she was really into it. ************** """ hehe found this one really funny... All of a sudden, he exclaimed "oieee M***, sanchikai piyo." haha nice one bru.. i remember that ganesh ley dudh khayeko incident. i was 12-13 barsha. i went to Baneshwor ko Ganesh ko mandir.. maile dida pani khayeko thiyo .i remember that .. never ending line.. tara bro.. tyo beer khayeko chahi first time suneko hai.. Nice one.. Kudos.. roc |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 12-Nov-03 10:18 PM
roc1432, sajha chat room ma patak patak bolna khojda pani kina tarsera naboli hindeko? |
| roc1432 | Posted
on 12-Nov-03 10:29 PM
bhunte hajur lai feri galat faemi bhayo jasto cha.. aba kohi napayera nachineko manchey sanga kun chahi murkha po daraucha ra? college ko byasta schedule bata break lina matra sajha chat ma aeencha. kaile kahi basincha kaile tyaam hunna. aba i dont know when u tried to talk to me in sajha pachi bhet bhayo bhane awasya kura garumla. ahile lai tareymam roc |
| KaLaNkIsThAn | Posted
on 13-Nov-03 03:03 AM
LOL oysssssssa! There you go again! eh! course LOAD ali kum bhaa jasto cha!! ;) Great piece!!! (sick and tired of the 'cut and paste' and the 'political analysis' threads in sajha) eh! Should I say, an original piece in sajha after a long time? -- well after Lekhak's Red Roulette? Feels good to be fresh again! eh. Bru, 'oys ko didi' character is funny as hell!! haha! Aba next stop is STOP? :D:D |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 13-Nov-03 05:54 AM
Oys bhai, So, this incident is from 95-96? 26 NO. KO BUS, Tangal Ganesh, Gansehthan ko Galli and Gahana Khojne Pokhari, however, no mention of Nan-Sekuwa corner? K ho, kina taysto? Anyways, as always enjoyed reading your walk down the memory lane. dai |
| rbaral | Posted
on 13-Nov-03 06:51 AM
>By using simple laws of physics and surface tension, scientists >were able to show how such statues can take up fluids. >THis was broadcasted in NTV, so noone could really >refute its credibility. How does the physics, or surface tension, explain the absorprtion of milk by a statue? Where will the milk be stored? On the pores of the statue? I have a hazy memory of those people explaining that on NTV, but I never quite understood. Could someone be kind enough to explain? Thanks and Namaste, Rishi |
| Deep | Posted
on 13-Nov-03 07:02 AM
Oys bro, Tangal Ganesh le hamro jamana ma chhata --itta--dhunga-danak sabai khanthe-- kunai din lekhamla.... Oys le garera malai ahile tyo Tangal Ganesh ko raato chhata ma ---Dhyaaang!--hanna man layo--saikal ko dandi ma basera ajha----tara ke garne Ganesh ooota ma yata achel--! khattam chha. good to be back in hadigau again. I can't type much these days. I am still having problem with my right hand. Dagdarsab says will be perfectly fine within a couple of weeks. Duita ghatana lekhnu chha malai--euta chai uhi bhawana ko ho. thanks again for taking me back in the place where I want to be, Oys. yeah! right by that ganeshthan but not inside that "sasastra prahari gan", though. :) |
| DWI | Posted
on 13-Nov-03 07:58 AM
Had to go over the TV Guide 10 times and couldn't find when the next Sajha-Wonder Years was coming. Finally arrived. Liked it, a humurous side of Oys eh? Enjoyed the narration. Isolated! I am pretty sure that guy with beer was either you or me. |
| DWI | Posted
on 13-Nov-03 08:04 AM
Deep My take, it is a combination of Surface tension and more importantly Capillary Action. Surface tension allows the milk to flow easily to a protrusion, here Ganesh's trunk. Capillary action, which is best explained by how plant gets its water from soil, allows the flow of milk in upward direction. Rest of the body works as syphon or a sink. Where did the milk go? I bet if a good experiment was done, you could verify the milk flew around the body, only not visible as the color matched most of the Ganesh's statues. When milk was going up it was concentrated in a small channel, thus visible. But when it reached the trunk and a little higher up, part of it got absorbed (in clay statues) and rest got distributed as a thin film. Hope that helps, that is my understanding. |
| Deep | Posted
on 13-Nov-03 08:06 AM
"Isolated! I am pretty sure that guy with beer was either you or me. " Not so fast, DWI. hami chai ke marya thim ra teti bela? |
| DWI | Posted
on 13-Nov-03 12:45 PM
Hatteri, Deep. Jhan Handigaon ko manchhe lai birsya. Haat lai ke bho? Oys, and the reason behind the title 'Pulp Fiction' is? (or is it Gulp Fiction, gulping the milk). |
| SITARA | Posted
on 13-Nov-03 03:23 PM
hehe! Beautiful narration! I second Kalanki, an original piece, finally whew! |
| Hiphop_shaggy | Posted
on 13-Nov-03 04:48 PM
Wow that was just amazing Oys Dear. Keep it up. I like that part where he drinks beer. Is it true ??? Must have been who know.......... O Roc CHUP ................... |
| roc1432 | Posted
on 13-Nov-03 05:54 PM
malai chup re. Hiphop shaggy who u be? .. mero ghetto ko keta ho ki keti ho? .. naam bhane hip hop shaggy .aba lekhaee chahi keti jasto .yo virtual world of the internet ma sex identify garna garho bhayera Kayal parcha ho.. tara malai chup kina bhannu bha ho kunni.. ma bhanda saano ho ki thulo ho pani tha bhayena.. Kaag karaudai garcha pinas sukdai garcha.. subol subol.. roc |
| south | Posted
on 13-Nov-03 07:39 PM
oys bhai, nice one. i thoroughly enjoyed. I think i know you, should i talk to your parents about shivani? do you really like her? is that her real name? i am not guessing, I think you are either junior or senior studying somewhere in east coast right? |
| oys_chill | Posted
on 13-Nov-03 08:30 PM
Thank you all for your kind words! Hey Rocie, glad u enjoyed it. Actually, beer ta mero sathi le ni try garya thiyo :) Tyai moro ashish, thanx for sharing your side of the story. You made my day by this line "....I asked a passer by and he told me that ganesh was drinking some milk." i asked Ko ganesh, hamro class ko ganesh". No idiot ganesh bhagwan" eheheh. Hey kalanki bru, computer problemo..can u call me? tonite or tomorrow if u r reading this! I had started STOP, but I just got lost in the way with lotta distractions ;) u know em. I think i lost all dem good files too :( Isolated Freak bru, yah the timeframe is right. Why so biggie bout naan sekuwa center ni? I thought u were supposed to advertise it with full description like u did on Mike's Breakfast :). On a side note, I wouldn't really be surprised if that guy was you :) Rishi jyu, I am sure your queries were answered by DWI. Actually, the milk didn't really vanish. The attractive forces caused the surface tension and it oozed like a thin film on the back, sometimes forming a small puddle at the back of the statue..now who would really bother bout the back side rite? Hey deep dai, long time no hear! I am sure everyone would be excited bout bhawana. iTs chilly chilly weather...jawos bholi samma ! cheura masu khadai padumla .. DWI bru, I must confess, this memory lane was due to the subtle push by you, kalankistan and few other sajhaites :). I guess sometimes u need that. ALso thanx for clarifying rishi's queries. and about pulp fiction.....I just guess its the damn CD that stopped working on my computer.....and ofcourse, how niny winy news get magnified thousandfold in a short time :) ....that it almost sounds true. Sitara jyu, Darshan! lonnggg tyam! How is autumn blooming down there? Hey hiphop shag, thanx hai! Now now south bru..........U almost got me there! Before you go about ....read this! ******* Signs ******* It started out as a pretty bad day. I got up late, and missed the work. So I slept some more and suddenly realized, I needed to take care of the cells I was growing. what a mess, the entire culture contaminated by bacteria. Another week of hardwork gone with the wind. Then it was her. yes, not shivani. but her..her her. Then, it was the god damn WIND, that almost blew me away. It would be sooo wonderful if it really did. Then, I realize that few things in our apartment had been stolen.....including coke. IT seems trivial but I really am craving for coke right now. Anyways, Then to relax, I put in the CD in the cd rom, oh yes. It gets stuck........so I open the damned computer and take the cd out..guess what next? The computer stops functioning :) YAY!....so I come down here to scribble few words of gratitude! now its SOUTH BRU :).....Shivani comes in many shapes and sizes....I read somewhere that, you cannot make anyone love you, the most you can do is make yourself be loved :). I have met dozen shivanis throughout my life, few suntalis and one or two sheetals :). Now, if u do decide to talk to my parents, just let me know beforehand which one u r talking bout ;). hai ta! goody nite! |
| chipledhunga | Posted
on 13-Nov-03 09:55 PM
Oys, amazing narration!! I do remember that it was a big news then, around 95-96 haina? Ganesh le beer khaeko chahi suneko theena..very interesting :) |
| south | Posted
on 14-Nov-03 09:09 AM
oys I agree with you. you can nt make someone love you. I also tried a lot for one but could nt succeed. i tried a lot to be loved but did nt work. |
| golkhandi | Posted
on 14-Nov-03 05:03 PM
Teti bela ka kura ta bhanu bhane hamlai pani katti kura thaha chha.Tara bhandina .Golkhandi kheleko. |
| roje | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 07:42 AM
Hello Oys_chill, Seems like the sajha Gods are not happy with me. I was in the middle of writing a message and my writing disappered so I am trying it one more time. I finally got a chance to read one of your infamous "memory lanes." Liked it. Pretty close to your heart I suppose. It takes a lot of courage and skill to open a part of you out infront of so many people and with such eager. Congrats dude... I think DWI summed it well when he explained the scientific phenomena behind the whole facade. You can also try this at home with a cup of milk and imagine the handle of your favorite coffee mug as the trunk of lord Ganesh. Pretty sleek eh? And then there you go you got a living cup :) It was quite refreshing to see the wonders of science do magic in your story Oys_chill. I still remember when that happenned back in Nepal. People were divided into two groups. Oys_chill's sister represented the first group of people, who tried to cash in the opportunity to impose religion on others. Others were still "religious" temple goers and tika bearers but were still hesitant to just accept this phenomena. I loved it. I didnt have any clue to what was going on. Everything was put into perspective when RONAST came up with the explanation saying that science was the culprit being this massive waste of milk in the capital. I even read at that time that we ran out of milk in the capital. That was hilarious. On the final note. Oys-chill I would really like to know about Shivani :). They say "blessed are those who are in love for they shall conquer the world." I think its true only if the love is science. Happy Sunday all y'll. |
| Nepe | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 08:02 PM
Very interesting story. I was in Kathmandu for a month when this episode (rightly named GULP FICTION by DWI ) happened. I do not have sisters to have such a lively moments like Oys was fortunate to have. Even my mother, who is the sole religious soul in our otherwise atheist family, did not believe it. Not that she did not have faith in Ganeshji, she simply did not find a logical reason for Ganesh to do such a silly thing. Anyway, it was very interesting episode and I think such events are valuable for the students of Social psychology to study the phenomenon of mass hysteria. On a related note, has anybody heard about 'chamatkar' Nepali Sai Bahini performed in some of Nepali's home in DC area during her recent visit ? There is one write-up about it in NepaliPost and today Sagarmatha TV showed some miniature statues she had 'materialied' and a clip of Sai Bahini producing a small, smooth, dark colored and almost round stone which they called 'Shiva Linga' from her mouth ! I have no intention to offend fellow Nepalis for their faith. So I am not making any comments. But I am of the opinion that con artistry should be separated from religious faith and anthropological works. Sai Baba is a successful combination of con artistry, religion and anthropological causes. For some interesting discussion, visit the following old thread, Thread: Satya Sai Baba: Authi, necklace .. and facts behind it Date: Dec. 2001 - http://www.sajha.com/archives/openthread.cfm?threadid=2832 |
| oys_chill | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 09:35 PM
Hey chipledhunga dai, south dai, golkhandi ji, and nepe dai thanx all for your praises and inputs. Nepe dai, that's a very interesting point you raise about sai baba and bahini. A couple of years ago, i got enrolled into this colloquoial class called science vs. pseudoscience. Though my project primilarily focused on tarot cards, me and my other compatriot nepali had long outside class discussion with our professor on Sai Baba. what was amazing was the fact that he was a devout sai baba bhakta himself..so what transpired? well, I confess that I haven't seen the video clip, but he told me during the eighties, some ppl documented this so called sai kuti in south india and shocks swept the disciples. The so called bibhuti was nothing more than a mixture of tablets made of sandalwood and something else..and when pressed against your fingers gives the ash. What was more interesting as he says is , at a certain point, the reverend baba drops one of these tablets, and his follower quickly picks it up and gulps it down. Even more fascinating is the news about the infamous MISSING KIDNEYS of the kids in the eighties has been subtly linked with the sai baba clinic. I am not trying to make any sweeping generalization here. I am sure Sai baba and bahini are devout and holy people. They might have helped many people lead and live spiritual life, but if its con artistry, noone has the right to play with peoples' emotions. I don't know about the thread nepe dai, but there was this movie I watched a long time ago called "JADUGAR" which was an obvious satire on sai baba, which had this central theme.......just because some people do magic, don't mean they are god....... and my theme in life has.......... just because some things haven't been explained, don't mean they are supernatural damn its late.........I hope my sister doesn't read this ;) |
| Rusty | Posted
on 18-Nov-03 08:56 AM
:) |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 23-Nov-03 06:09 PM
It is a very nice piece from Oys reflecting the dynamics of life and cultures among high and medium class people in Kathmandu and other satellite cities in Nepal. It is upto the people whether to believe or not. I am not too much devotee of any religion, but I also believe on Sai Baba or Shriddi Sai Baba. People may say it conic art or whatever they may want to label at their disposal. If it is such an art, why can't one disprove or replicate it?? I also want to learn that art. Any cook book? I have not seen Sai Baba, but have seen or heard of Sai Baini producing bivuti, honey, different kinds of gift like items, such as pendants, rings, chains, pens, shiva linga from mouth, and different kinds of fruits like dry coconut, orange, apple, etc. coming out of her hand. Morever, she heals some complicated diseases and addictions. I have been observing or hearing these little over 10 years. In one fine early morning I had an opportunity to see rays of lights from Sai Baini's palm while she was praying in Puja her room. She produced an orange, and a hand chain back in early 1990s. I feel extremely lucky to be cared by her in my early childhood as my cousin sister. Recently she visited many US cities in the last 4 months and had prayers with other sai bhaktajans in US. There are many other stories about what she have done in the past 14 yrs, but other witnesses may be better able to tell them...Had there been same miracles from Pope John Paul III or so, it would have been a big news in giant medias...But it is cone art when it is by an illeterate housewife in rural nepal......What a Justice! |
| nepe | Posted
on 23-Nov-03 08:44 PM
Bhunte ji, You might want to read about James Randy's one million Dollar Paranormal challange. - http://www.randi.org/research/index.html |
| oys_chill | Posted
on 23-Nov-03 09:53 PM
Hey nepe dai, I was about to say that..interesting, you know james randi.....I had the privilege of meeting him when he was in our univ :). Gave a wonderful presentation esp. on psychic surgery. Hey, nepe dai, i'd like to hear yor views on John Edwards too! Anyways, Bhunte dai, thanx for your inputs. As I have said earlier, my story and my views, have absolutely no intention to infringe on peoples' beliefs. I have found out the hard way that seeing is NOT believing"....now the only comeback line I can feel from the other side of the coin is "SHE"S NOT DOING THIS FOR MONEY" rite? now I wonder, why do they have donation boxes where they preach :). Now, if she/he can win a million bucks, wouldn't they able to help lotta poor in south asia? jus a thought! Again, I don't mean to offend or change peoples' faith and beliefs...but Interestingly, almost a decade ago, Sai Baba then, proclaimed that he had spent a weekend at the bottom of the pond. Noone refuted to that claim more than Jadugar PC Sarkar jnr. who proposed him to stay in a glass cube filled with water for mere seven hours or so. Of course, Sai Baba, quickly denied the challenge, giving spiritual implications! Hey, I did happen to see that PC sarkar's circus when he vanished the elephant by closing out all the lights..it was a pure chamatkar! now should we revere him as well? As for curing complicated diseases and addictions, errr.....Placebo Effect!? |
| Nepe | Posted
on 24-Nov-03 09:40 AM
Oys, It is a pleasure to know you as one of the few peoples who have not lost their rationalism over extremely powerful, influential and glamorous spiritual con artistry of our time. I think the later is a very vast subject which has philosophical, cultural and political dimentions. I just don't know where to start. I had anticipated a global surge of a rational spiritualism in a post communism world. But I am totally taken aback by a successful invasion of our society by irrational spiritualism. I don't know what's going on. May be we are testing the limit of our liberty by experimenting with a new kind of slavary. May be we have lost our direction in a non-polar (others call it unipolar, I prefer to call it non-polar) world. May be we are seeing a slow evolution of a new kind of bipolar world. I just don't know. In any case, something very interesting is going on in our time. However, it disturbs me a lot not to find a resolve about what responsibility I, as a responsible member of the society, have to the consumers (victims ) of irrational spirituality. Where should I draw a line between my right to uphold the rationality and their right to the choices they make. While I am struggling and probably will be doing so for ever to find that fine line, I am clear about one thing. Pro-choice is misleading. What about information ? Although it is ideal, we should always strive for a society where people can make INFORMED CHOICE. Information is everything. Spread the news. Nepe Not against irrationalilty, but for Informed Choice |
| confused | Posted
on 24-Nov-03 10:22 AM
lol oys i also have heard many incidents abt Sai baba and PC sarkar.i dont know if this one is true or not but well let me just shoot it out...: sai baba is walking around throwing kharani frm his hand to people hagi..then balla balla after 10 mins of 10 feet walk he comes up to pc sarkar...then he rotates his hand one for time ...like he does while taking out his gray kharani..tadaaaa...and to everybody's suprise..sai baba..takes out kharani frm his hand and gives it to pc sarkar..man.but.PC got pissed dude ..he was such a big magician and he didnt want to loose his pride with that silly kharani move..then damn he started doing his own THANG>>he stood up with an empty hand and reached sai baba's LIL JOHN's haristyle and just circled it around for few times...then guess what dude?? he got out a laddoo frm BABA"s hair..dammn kyaa achhaama.. But my personal opinion about Sai Baba is he is just a Baba just like all other baba's(pashupati ko baba or trikal baba from sajha).. the only differnce between him and other baba ji's are he just doesnt give out words of wisdom but gives out little action too..and ya action does speak louder than words..he has done a great deal for people living around his place..it really dont matter that he is roobing all the khaires out coz all that money is being used for better porposes..IT really is very easy to CONVINCE average group of people..but keeping that status is hard and he seems to be doing that by donating and helping others...I REALLY DONT meAN TO OFFEND ANY SAI BHAKTA'S THIS IS JUST MY OPINION ;) |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 30-Nov-03 03:47 PM
Nepe ji, do you think Sai or Sriddi Baba will apply in James Randi's organization for 1 million dollar prize? The proposal and website itself a very laughable one. Hope there is no laughing gas in the website. I read the web site, and the guy offers the prize in the form of some negotiable junk bond. That too he is expecting people to donate for the prize. I guess he is making a living from that donation and want to capitalize if some Alaukik charismatic personality like Sai Baba or Sriddi Baba teach or transfer that power. Remember that such supernatural power is not for money, but only for human well beings. If you visit Puttaparti (as my South Indian frens in Puttaparti in AndraPradesh india informed me) that there are top hospital, educational facilities, etc free of charge at the Sai Center there. There are millions who follow these Babas in India and overseas. The services it provide is itself can be valued in many korers. The self satisfaction one feels after meeting or getting blessed is indeed invaluable to anyone. Do you still think these Babas will apply for Randi's prize? Oys bro, well I also see the donation box in all religious centers, be it at church, makka, or mandir. Devi deuta lai bheti chadhaune ta hamro sanskar nai ho ankhir ma. Acutally their super natural power is not for manufacturing money, but for other purpose as I indicated earlier. However, I am not surprised when there r bhaktajan (fans) collecting donations to organize prayers ceremony, travel costs, etc. So far I know Sai Baini's travel to different cities was arranged by such bhaktajans on a personal basis and probably collecting donations!! |
| VincentBodega | Posted
on 30-Nov-03 04:37 PM
thought some people might find this interesting. Recently NIH passed a grant worth of $1.4 million dollars to a researcher named Dr. Elizabeth Targ, who is trying to find the connection between prayers and its healing power. More on this can be read here : http://www.time.com/time/columnist/jaroff/article/0,9565,193084,00.html below is a part of another article that talks about how prayers have healed people and still continue to. Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1844076.stm and whats my point in this pointless discussion. I believe that if you are trying to find logic in religion and faith then its the wrong field. Take up science and maths for logic. Faith and religion are based upon complete surrender to someone called God. I dont understand why its of concern to certain groups of people if following Sai baba or bahini works for their followers. I dont think they will complain if you dont follow as they will have more attention from their leader. faith is a personal thing and lets leave it that way. No one laughed at me when I put my head on a stone smeared with red vermillion back home. And the stone didnt even do any "magic" :) I dont see why people who consider other people as their Gods should be cautioned if they believe that their Gods and take care of them. ************************************* Crude methods Some of the first experiments to try to answer it came in the 1800s, when the worlds of science and religion began to eye each other uncomfortably. The tests used crude methods, concluding for instance that prayer was proved by the long lifespans of royals - people who were much prayed for. These methods have been superseded by more rigorous trials. But, remarkably, many modern tests have reached similar conclusions. Professor Leslie Francis of the University of Bangor has studied 31 experiments (conducted to the "highest professional standards") into the effectiveness of prayer. The trials would typically take a group of hundreds of patients recovering from heart surgery, randomly divided into two groups, one of which is prayed for. None of the patients would know they were or weren't being prayed for. It depends on God being an intervening God David Laws "The findings are quite staggering," he says. "Studies show that patients in hospital who are being prayed for (even when they do not know they are being prayed for) are more likely to recover." But according to Dr David Laws of the University of Manchester the kind of prayer which asks God to do something is only relevant if you have a particular understanding of God. "It depends on God being an intervening God who breaks into our world and mops up our mess whenever we make one." That is a kind of God that Professor Francis says he would be uncomfortable with, since it raises questions that if God can intervene, why does he not do so to avoid more human suffering? But former cancer patient Mary Ligertwood, from Milton Keynes, believes prayer did play a part in her recovery. When she was found to have cancer in her breast, kidney and lymph gland at the age of 50, she was given a year to live. And yet within six months, she walked away free of the disease. Mary Ligertwood Now 13 years on, she puts her recovery down to a combination of the power of surgery - she had five operations - and the prayers of her friends. But she does not consider herself to have experienced a "miracle cure". She does though consider it a miracle that the whole experience of diagnosis, surgery and recovery was for her such an enjoyable - and spiritual - one. "Again and again, people visiting me in hospital would say: 'Why are you so happy?' For me it really was a very wonderful time... There was no element of fear there at all." |
| Nepali Kanchi | Posted
on 30-Nov-03 04:41 PM
Oys ji , is this is for real? |
| Nepe | Posted
on 05-Dec-03 02:45 PM
Bhunte ji, When I saw you addressing me after my reply to Oys where I had kinda made a cryptic appeal for demystification of unsettling spread of fraudulent mysticism in current world, I was anticipating you're gonna start a scholarly debate on mysticism, faith and science (being aware of the level of your education and your interest in the field of natural sciences) However, I was disappointed after reading your posting. You found James Randi's one million dollar chanllage to paranormal claims as laughable. Well, what can I say ? All I can say is, Bhunte ji, you must have a 'alaukik' sense of humor to laugh at James Randi. I had read one of Saibaba's interviews some twenty years ago where he was repeating his claim of being the incarnation of God and refusing to undergo scientific tests for his paranormal power. It was about then. Now, you can find enormous amount of material on the web about his spiritual frauds. If you ask my views, Saibaba's miracles are fraud. As a matter of fact, anybody who claims to possess paranormal power is a fraud. There is no such thing as paranormal power. I admire James Randi for his contribution- to end the endless silly discussions about paranormal power with his publicly available one million dollar challange. Despite being a fraud, an enormous crowd worships Saibaba and are so many other Spiritual frauds. And there are good reasons for that. I was hoping to have a brainstorming on these reasons. As I said earlier, Saibaba is a popularly successful combination of Spiritualism, fraud and philanthropic causes. (A note of error from my earlier posting. I mistakably used the word 'Anthropological'. I meant philanthropic. -Nepe). Philanthropic causes and a secular-like religious preachings are what floats the boats of Saibaba's silly claims and fraudulent magic. People's vulnerability due to their emotional attachment to their dead loved ones is what keeps the boats of psychics like John Edwadrs afloat. Nothing less nothing more. Though we have reasons and sometimes some advantage to become victims of these spiritual frauds, it is the people like James Randi who makes these fraud make pee in their kattu (Pardon my French ! I am too much pissed off with these non-stop silly claims). So this is it, Bhunte ji. Had it been a conversation with an illiterate man, I would be very fearful of offending their emotions. However, you are a man with Ph.D. degree, so I am sure you will take my reply as what it actually is- an attempt of an intellectual debate. +++++++++++++++ On a related note on scientific research on medical usefulness of spiritual methods as posted by VincentBodega, it just happens that my boss is in a review committee of National Center for Complementry and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM), the same controversial institute which funded Elizabeth Targ's research on the healing power of prayer. A quick remark from me. NCCAM originated more as an economic and political decision than a scientific one, hence controversial among scientists and intellectuals. It was found that some 40% of Americans are using scientifically untested alternative medicine without letting their doctors know about it. It was a huge economic waste. It is imperative that we should be knowing what works and what does not and why. This is the very purpose of the funds NCCAM provides for research. I am personally supportive of money wasted on even a silly (my opinion) research like that on prayer. Because this is the only way to push the final nail on the coffin of illogical things like prayers for medical purpose. It is equivalent of James Randi's one million dollar challange. Anyway, I thank VincentBodega for bringing up interesting material. However, his following introduction surprised me. >below is a part of another article that talks about how >prayers have healed people and still continue to. >Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1844076.stm Because the piece is about quite the opposite- that is, how prayers did not heal the people. Anyway, let's pray that prayers could heal the people. And to increase its power exponentially, let's pray that the prayers that was made to make prayers for healing effective be effective too and let's go one level up and pray that the prayers that was made to make the prayers that was made to make the prayers effective effective and so on. Nepe For science and uncorrupted spiritualism |
| VincentBodega | Posted
on 05-Dec-03 03:42 PM
>>Because the piece is about quite the opposite- that is, how prayers did not heal the people. Nepeji, Please read under Crude Methods. "The findings are quite staggering," he says. "Studies show that patients in hospital who are being prayed for (even when they do not know they are being prayed for) are more likely to recover." Thanks |
| Nepe | Posted
on 05-Dec-03 06:08 PM
My bad VB ji. The BBC piece is indeed about healing power of prayer. I was reading the previous piece from the Time, where all such claims are questioned and possible explanations explored. In any case, the BBC piece is pretty poor in materials and discussion. I will have to check those *staggering* results to comment more authoritatively. However, I can say two things against it right away. First of all, statistics (prayer receivers were more likely to recover) is a completely absurd measurement of divine intervention (the logic of prayer). God should completely heal or just would not heal. He must be sick himself or drunkard to heal, let's say, 20% of the prayed patients ! Second, I don't believe, such results are always reproducible. Vast majority of researcher just would not give any damn to such illogical research. Otherwise I am sure a lot of them would get contradicting results. I will not be surprised at all if half of them reported that prayers had the opposite effect- patients being less likely to recover. Anyway, I think with scientific authority like NCCAM to handle such research, we will see more in future how such claims were just experimental artifacts. At the same time, we will also have scientific evaluation and understanding of many non-mainstream but logical medical practices. That is why I am with the idea of NCCAM. On a lighter note, I wonder, if prayers can affect medical procedure, would it be able to affect the scientific research (the results) too ? In that case, I just pray the Pope and the President Bush do not pray for the research on prayers to be on the favor of their profession and bias. |
| bhunte | Posted
on 05-Dec-03 08:14 PM
Nepe ji, First of all, neither of our participation in Kurakani has anything to do with our academic degree or academic background. So far I understand, Sajha's kurakani's chest is wide open to accomodate all sorts of formal, informal, causal, or even stupid (??) discussions, news, information, appeal, help, etc. I'm not obliged to fulfill your personal expectations. Or, can you fulfill my expectations? It may be useful for Nepe ji to have a look the thread "Sajha vs TND" where the differences are pointed by some other sajhites. Getting back to the topic, 1. If Sai Baba's activities have been fraudulent, is India a lawless country? 2. If you are so much engrossed into Science, remember there are many things or pehenomena which science hasn't been able to explain. 3. I am still laughing with that stupid Randi's begging bowl. Why that stupid seeking donation for his million dollar prize in the form of junk bond? Why can't risk his own money, but instead seeking money from others?? 4. Why can't Nepe ji convince or stop thousands other doctors and scientists following Sai Baba? I would like to see Nepe ji able to replicate what SaiBaba has been doing is believed to be a fraud, magic, or a trick? 5. When did Randi make Sai baba pee in his kattu? 6. Even a republican inclined people like Girija or King like Birendra followed Sai baba. What are their rational? What's wrong with them? 7. You said "....Had it been a conversation with an illiterate man, I would be very fearful of offending their emotions. However, you are a man with Ph.D. degree, so I am sure you will take my reply as what it actually is- an attempt of an intellectual debate....". Well, Bhunte is a representation of illeterate people, and I still consider your debate as an intellectual intercourse.... |
| Nepe | Posted
on 06-Dec-03 10:23 AM
Bhunteji, I will summarize all of your 7 points into a single point- that Saibaba does not have to prove anything because great many educated folks, celebrities and dignitaries are his devotees. If this is what you have to say, it pretty much concludes this discussion. If you are insisting that Saibaba indeed has paranormal power, or even sillier, believe that he is omnipotent and omnipresent like he claims about himself, let's talk about it. As for replicating the magic Saibaba performs, I am surprised you are asking this. I mean, have you never been to any Magic show in your life ? There are millions of professional magicians around the world, who perform magic more amazing than Saibaba producing tiny rings, necklace and stones. And unlike Saibaba, nobody have deceived people to believe they have paranormal power. I remember PC Sarkar Jr. telling the audience after his show in Kathmandu, that everything he did was some clever tricks, they were not performed with any paranormal power. As for me, I wish I had a chance to choose the profession of magician. Nevertheless I have learned a few tricks of magic with which I have amazed so many of my friends. Let me share an interesting anecdote. Once I was in Pokhara with a lot of my students and our local host who was a nice lady and an owner of a shop. I performed the magic in front of them. The lady believed that I indeed have a magical power, because I made her expensive watch, rings, necklaces disappear one by one in front of her. She was shocked to see how I made them disappear in front of her and then, half hour later I made them reappear again. Next day, the lady kept asking me the whole day if she can learn the mantra or whatever power I have from me. In the evening, I revealed the trick to her. Her reaction was an unforgettable fun for me. By the way, James Randi, whom you are despising for no good reason, is a magician himself. That is why he is in this mission of educating people about all the fraud, hoax and deception there are. He started the challange with his $ 10,000. It reached $ 10,000,00 with donations from people who understood the value of his mission. |
| SITARA | Posted
on 06-Dec-03 02:02 PM
My two cents worth on this topic: Sai Baba has been my mentor, like so many others: UG Krishnamurti, Dalai Lama, Kant, Descartes, Leo Buscalia, M. Scott Peck... the list is looooong. Does that mean I believe in the "magic" that Sai Baba performs? NO!!! But I am amazed at the the miraculous healings that have manifested out of the faith in Sai Baba. I believe the power of healing is inherent in mankind, but sometimes, it takes a prodding to trigger off that power. That is where mentors come in. Nepe ji, I value your thoughts and opinions and I would like to reiterate the concept of faith at the cost of sounding "silly", "siller" or "silliest". Whatever it may be, the "Sacredness" is not about the man, Sai Baba but what he is capable of inspiring in people. Call it blind faith, call it stupidity, or even ignorance but, if his mere words and/"magic" or what-have- yous have the capacity to inspire people to believe in themselves despite failours, believe in a better world despite tragedy/ies, therein lies the miracle. I began reading philosophy (moving away from fiction) at a sensitive period in my life when biliotherapy was my one and only source of inspiration. It was during this time that words attached to symbolisms and rituals were meaningless. Many authors, I found logical, many more I found illogical but all the while such readings triggered off my own sense of self, bringing into focus my existence in this world. No, I don't believe everything I read and neither do I read everything I see. However, I have dabbled into Osho's writings to understand "his" concept of human tendencies. Does that make me a believer or a follower, I don't think so. Having the ability to critique and consume theories (whether scientific or spiritual) with a rational mind is a privilege. To dictate that every human being possess a rational and/or a logical mind (of your brand) is dictatorship! You have mentioned "rational spiritualism", the term is an oxymoron in itself! How can anything associated with the "spirit" be rational. Which lab experiment has proved the existence of spirit, and under what controlled conditions, (ifsuch has been possible) can they recreate the same to prove the existence of spirit? Allow me to be bold enough to say that your concept of "rational spiritualism" versus "irrational spiritualism" is dubious at best! My mother used to gently chide me and say, not every human being can be a "Gyan Margi" because there are those so many exhausted beings who are simply happy to be a "Bhakti Margi". If, from both the margas, the end results into a kind, tolerant and compassionate society of people, then, so be it. Who are we to judge the irrationality of those who worship a stone image? Who alloted us such power to denounce people's faith in "Pantheism"?! As we grow older, we understand that "truth" is a scarce commodity. There are too many versions of truth out there, some kitchen brewed and others lab concocted, but in the final analysis, we stick to the so called "truth" that seems to help rationalize our life, life-style and actions with least discomfort. 'Rationalism" is only that which can be tweaked to give credibility to our thoughts/actions . The day, somebody can define with accuracy the concepts of "normal", "paranormal", "rational", "irrational".... all other abstracts, benchmarked, anchored and measured by the uncountable variations of human tendencies, such a day will forebode a doomsday for humanity! A world teeming with same DNAs, same thoughts, rationals, theories and beliefs will be little different than that aspired bythe NAZIs!!!! In Peace! |
| Nepe | Posted
on 06-Dec-03 09:15 PM
Sitara, Thank you for putting the thread on a much needed philosophical track. And as always, you make one feel serene with your disarmingly liberal acceptance to the quest of personal peace. While your emphasis on a liberal approach to accept diversity is very welcome, I was particularly impressed by your acknowledgement that faith comes with a price- price of being judged. As a matter of fact, all of my views can be conveniently put together and stored in that note. It was also a pleasure to be challenged by you to rationalize the notion of rational versus irrational spirituality that I have put forward. The only note that find disagreeable was what you termed 'dictatorship' or 'Nazism' if that was meant for what I would describe as scientific scrutiny of ideas. That said, let me share my views on some of your ideas. 1. Spiritual Gurus While it is inspiring to hear how you have benefited from the selective teachings of these great names, it is rather unsettling for me to see your reluctance to talk about their share of weakness, limitations and objectionable ideas. I understand that you don't look for negative things. So you may say that you don't see such things because you never looked for them in the first place. Fair enough. However, what about the left-over part after you *select* the good ones ? My intention is not to dismiss the good part of teachings of these Spiritual Gurus and, in case of UG, anti-Guru. Neither it is a pleasure for me to point out negative side of likes of Saibaba who you and, should I add, many of my loved ones revere as your mentor. But I can compile a long list of Saibaba's teachings which are not only *silly* and absurd, but also quite degrading. You may question my right to judge him. I accept the notion of questioning the right of judgment within the frame-work of personal freedom- like in choosing a life-style, in a quest of personal peace and comfort. But not in a quest for truth. When somebody starts to talk in terms of truth in place of personal freedom, he/she automatically gives others the right of scrutiny and judgment. You have made an interesting argument about truth. If I understood correctly, based on your emphasis on subjectivity, you are suggesting there is no 'truth'. There are different truths for different people. I disagree. When we are talking about 'different versions of truth', we are actually talking about the 'level of our understanding' or 'knowledge', we are not talking about the truth itself. There can not be two truths about the same thing. (If somebody would like to cite dualism as an counter argument, I say dualism is a single entity, not two different truths about the same thing). Particularly, when Saibaba takes out the necklace he is hiding in his pocket or sleeve and claims he 'materialized' it out of nothing, these two are not two versions of a truth. One of them is true and the other is a lie. You have made an interesting statement about rationalism. >'Rationalism" is only that which can be tweaked to give credibility to >our thoughts/actions . Rationalism, credibility and thought process are chained in a single string. A sense of a credible thought process is itself what we call rationalism. There is a logical chance that our thought and rationalism makes a loop and we are imprisoned in that loop. So our thoughts might not be 'seeing' the actual reality of the world or whatever there is instead of the world. This idea sometimes scares me. However, I comfort myself with another idea. First of all, this hypothetical loop should not have individual variations among men. Not only men, but among all living organisms which have 'brain'. This means we can always employ 'consistency' or 'reproducibility' as a criterion for an identifiable state which we will sense as the truth of that state. See ? I arrived at what we also call scientific method which deals with truth. It is getting heavier, so I will leave it here. 2. Rational spirituality I think I made a point about rationality already. I will not add anything more. Now about spirituality. Sitara, you modeled spirituality as something about 'spirit' - the 'aatmaa' which our scriptures describes as something that survives after death. I was not talking about that. I do not believe in such 'spirit'. Spirit to me is simply a consciousness, which dies with the death of all of our neurons when we die. Now, it is needless to explain that by spirituality, I meant exercise of conscience, reflection, quest of happiness and things like that. And these things, as I can see, easily go with rationalism. One does not have to think irrationally to practice these things. One does not have to believe that Satya Narayan Raju was actually who sent Jesus Christ to the earth in order to lead a spiritual life. I was thinking to write something about our misconception of science as some ism or what is written in the textbooks of science, as shown by Bhunte ji's note that science has not been able to explain many things in his earlier posting. That for some other time. |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 06-Dec-03 10:40 PM
Nepe ji, a humor filled note will follow from me after 72 hours, Ok? Then I hope to stop there... Till then carry on the discussion... |
| Gokul | Posted
on 07-Dec-03 07:56 AM
Let me share my opinions about this topic: (1)Sai Baba may be just a magician or a true yogi. There are enough arguments to support both sides. If we really like to know who he is, then we must take the personal trouble to investigate him. Otherwise we will just be carrying over others devotion or prejudices. In that sense, it does not matter what he is because his being does not change what we really are. Knowledge is the difference that makes the difference. I see a box full Tylenols. Some say it cures headache. Some say it deteriorates your health. If I am just looking at the Tylenol and not consuming it, it does not matter to me personally what it is. If I want to know, I must eat it. I have seen people relieved from headache, and some having more headache. Unlike science, religion is a personal matter. That is why it is so rich, so universal and ALSO so prone to hypocrisy and traps. Sai Baba is just an “instance variable” of a class called Religion or Spirituality. We should understand the class and not the instance to see the bigger picture. (2)What is truth? Is it obtained by just logic and objectivity (hence Science and mathematics) only? Heck, no. Truth is just a concept, a framework that helps us to survive in this universe. There is no such thing as pure truth. There are objective data but no objective truth because Truth = Data + Human Interpretation Since human interpretation is subjective, it is impossible to have purely objective truth. And you can not capture that truth through mathematics, science or language alone ( See Wittgenstein). The truth is by the people for the people from the people. We construct the truth to serve our purpose. (3)The purpose of human life is to be happy. Happiness is the archetype not the knowledge. We seek knowledge because it gives control which gives happiness. However, the more we know, the more we know that we do not know anything. Then we conceptualize it as wisdom or truth. But the goal is the same, to be happy. Now if you ask me which one is more useful to be happy: objectivity or subjectivity? The answer is clear: subjectivity. When we are sad, depressed, lonely – we listen to music, go to a club, drink beer or just chat with close friends. We do not start reading Feynman lectures in Physics or Russell’s Principia Mathematica. Nepeji, even you ( a scientist) said that God, Love, and Republicanism are the most engrossing topics for you. Why did not you say that you want to dream about ribosomes, RNA, DNA? What makes you write ghazals and poetry? Are not they stupid, irrational? Why feelings? They are just subjective shit. (4)Do we need religion? Absolutely YES. There are two reasons: (1) Objective truth does not exist. (2) Objective truth alone does not make human happy. As I am running short of time, I will write more later but let me quote Einstein who said something like this: I would rather be ignorant than be unhappy … (5)Religion is a tool created by mankind. If we use it properly, we can achieve our goal (happiness) much more quickly than Science. The wise thing is to get the best out of both. |
| Gokul | Posted
on 07-Dec-03 09:05 AM
(1)Why are there many frauds in spirituality and none in science? It is not because the spirituality itself is fraudulent. While the science has highways, traffic lights and road maps, the spirituality has none. That’s why the later is more challenging and profound. That’s why the later has so many frauds and cheaters. Introspection and meditation have been the primary tools in spirituality to communicate the uncommunicable. Even the science has realized the limit of human observation. That is why, quantum physicists sound like mystics. See how Dana Zohar dances! See how Schrodinger speaks the language of the Upanishads. See how beautiful is the discussion between Einstein and Tagore. See the sparks in Shivapuri baba’s eyes when he showed the Vedantic truth to Einstein. See the universal love in Yogananda’s eyes that was there even after 10 days of his death. Listen to the laughter of the Dalai Lama. If these are all false, I do not want to seek the truth. (2)“We thought the earth is hexagonal. It turned out to be spherical.” Dalai Lama said with the mischievous laughter. What is the big deal? Have we really become wiser, happier with this discovery? We may not be scared of the eclipse now. we may predict the weather well. But have we fundamentally changed? To speak Ashu’s language, is this the strategic knowledge or just operational knowledge? I have two books in my book shelf. One is about the design of a microprocessor other is about Buddhism. I am planning to throw the microprocessor book as it is outdated (though just 10 years old) and useless, while I like to preserve the other book (even though the content is 2500 years old). The former book just made me an engineer, the later made me a humane human. Spirituality is strategic, science is operational. Science can help us know when the outer asteroid will hit us. Religion helps us know when the inner asteroid hits us. And did I tell you that the chance of inner asteroid hitting us is far higher than the outer one? |
| Nepe | Posted
on 08-Dec-03 03:05 PM
Gokul ji, Those were mind blowing snippets from you ! Please do keep on serving us more of such savory foods for thought. Reading particularly the second posting feels like listening a great soul-enriching symphony by a great maestro. I think we do not have any disagreement regarding, let's say, the scope and possibility of human life to experience the supreme beauty, grandeur and richness of life and universe. If life has this potential, then it will be a great waste not to have a purpose. That is how, at least to me, life gets a purpose. As life evolved either spontaneously or accidentally on earth (Life as a designer's creation does not make sense to me, because, among other things, looking at the evolutionary time scale for the time it took to reach to human brain, the designer appears quite inefficient, lazy and an average Joe, which is hard to believe if there should be one) it is not responsible to any designer or master, so to speak. So we do not come with someone else's purpose on our shoulder. We invent our purpose. And because of the nature of the purpose (referring to beauty, grandeur and richness !), it is okay to say that we discover our purpose. Once we make the purpose of life free of someone else's game plan, we can safely say each individual should invent/discover his/her own purpose of life. Aren't there any condition/limitation for that ? I think the only condition is that it should be compatible with the sustenance and continuity of life on earth and wherever we can take it to. And it is always preferable to have a purpose that enriches life. However, the later, being highly subjective and desirable but not compulsory, should be left to each individual to decide. So, it is not easy to determine/define/decide the purpose of life. 'To be happy' sounds a reasonable purpose, because it fulfils both the obligatory and desirable criteria outlined above. The alternatives of it- to remain unhappy (makes no sense but suppressive regimes of the world is what makes it a reality) or feel nothing (Buddhist purpose) can not contest with the promise of the purpose of being happy. In any case, it is important to note that it is not necessary to assume that happiness is the ABSOLUTE purpose of life. Just to make a point, you may still have less desirable alternatives if you want. What is happiness ? Happiness is something that happens in our brain. It's basis is pleasure which in turn has a biochemical basis. Depending upon the level at which we observe, we can call it Physiological or biophysical bases too. We know very little about it. But with continued scientific research, we will know more and more about it as time goes by. Meditaion, sex, food, reward, beauty and mood elevating drugs look so different on the surface, but they become the same at biochemical or rather biophysical level. Pleasure is the central motivation of our voluntary decisions. So it makes sense to say that happiness is the purpose of life. But it is obvious that the sources of pleasure are diverse. Which is nobler/superior is an artificial distinction. I am not qualified to discuss about the meditation because except for the Bhavatit Dhyan in my high school and some my own brand of meditation which is rather some moments of refelection mostly when things I have done go wrong, I have not practiced meditation. However, I believe that, similar to how physical work-out strengthens our body, mediatation, which is a mental work-out should strenghten our mind. And similar to how over work-out damages our body, over meditation damages our mind too. It may be a temporary damage, it may be a parmanent damage. Hallucination like effect of intense meditation, in my humble view, are malfunctioning of mind rather than something mystic. It is in no way to trash the power of mind. Mind is definietly very powerful, not only in metaphoric sense, but in proper physical sense. What is mind ? It is simply a very complex biophysical activity of our brain. Although it sounds futuristic, I think as we understand more about our brain, we will discover or, if you like, rediscover the power of mind. However, there will always be physical explanation for that power. Because mind is a physics at the end of the day. Mind is not abstract. It is abstract to our mind only. In the brain, it is a mere matter and energy. There is no subjectivity as such. Subjectivity is a set of complex objectivities that we have no tool, knowledge and time to determine individually. The fluidity, beauty and magic of poetry is nothing but biophysics at the end of the day. Some day in future when we will have sophisticated brain scanner, we will able to watch a movie of Nepe's (or Nepe's grand grandson's) brain writing a ghazal and next day one critique analyzing the influence of another poets in his works by using digital fingerprints of poetrying of the other poet ! I know this version of life sounds boring as compared to the one of who believes in the existence of a higher consciousness independent of life and our potential to communicate with that power. But until the day I find reason to step in that version of the world, I will have to keep on living in my boring world and keep wondering what the purpose of my life should be or should have been. |
| Gokul | Posted
on 08-Dec-03 04:46 PM
”I think we do not have any disagreement regarding, let's say, the scope and possibility of human life to experience the supreme beauty, grandeur and richness of life and universe. If life has this potential, then it will be a great waste not to have a purpose. That is how, at least to me, life gets a purpose. “ The grandeur and richness of life comes from something that is sublime and subjective. ”Once we make the purpose of life free of someone else's game plan, we can safely say each individual should invent/discover his/her own purpose of life. “ Absolutely. But each individual’s purpose or goal cannot be arbitrary. We all are bound by the cosmic law of Karma. Karma should not be construed as fatalistic resignation. In fact, it is the psychosocial counterpart to the physical law of conservation of energy. ”I think the only condition is that it should be compatible with the sustenance and continuity of life on earth and wherever we can take it to. And it is always preferable to have a purpose that enriches life. “ Exactly, it is the greater goal for the humanity that gives each individual a purpose. Individuals act in their own way but all their actions are aligned toward the betterment for humanity. Like swarms of bees creating the elixir. “However, the later, being highly subjective and desirable but not compulsory, should be left to each individual to decide. “ This is completely wrong. Once you identify the goal and agree that we should strive for it, then we cannot just leave it. We may not have enough will power or resource. But at least we have to acknowledge our weakness. ”So, it is not easy to determine/define/decide the purpose of life. 'To be happy' sounds a reasonable purpose, because it fulfils both the obligatory and desirable criteria outlined above. The alternatives of it- to remain unhappy (makes no sense but suppressive regimes of the world is what makes it a reality) or feel nothing (Buddhist purpose) can not contest with the promise of the purpose of being happy. “ |
| Gokul | Posted
on 08-Dec-03 04:47 PM
Happiness is all we live for though it is always changing and we never stop. ¡¨In any case, it is important to note that it is not necessary to assume that happiness is the ABSOLUTE purpose of life. Just to make a point, you may still have less desirable alternatives if you want. ¡§ Ultimately it boils down to happiness. Our ambition, sacrifice, jealousy, hatred all geared toward giving us happiness. Of course, the nature of such happiness is quite different. ¡¨Happiness is something that happens in our brain. It's basis is pleasure which in turn has a biochemical basis. Depending upon the level at which we observe, we can call it Physiological or biophysical bases too. We know very little about it. But with continued scientific research, we will know more and more about it as time goes by. ¡§ Whatever is its root, it exists and we are driven by it. Do you believe one day we will discover a chemical called ¡§progesteronophoria ¡§ ƒº , that explains all our happiness? ¡¨Meditaion, sex, food, reward, beauty and mood elevating drugs look so different on the surface, but they become the same at biochemical or rather biophysical level. ¡§ I am so sorry for you and your reductionism. A wise man and a child are so similar. Does that mean they are the same? ¡¨Pleasure is the central motivation of our voluntary decisions. So it makes sense to say that happiness is the purpose of life. But it is obvious that the sources of pleasure are diverse. Which is nobler/superior is an artificial distinction. ¡§ Artificial it may very well be. But one is surely everlasting and law-abiding (Karmic) while the other is just a temporary escape. ¡¨I am not qualified to discuss about the meditation because except for the Bhavatit Dhyan in my high school and some my own brand of meditation which is rather some moments of refelection mostly when things I have done go wrong, I have not practiced meditation. ¡§ I have not practised it either though I intend to do. However, I know it exists from account of others¡¦ experience. ¡¨However, I believe that, similar to how physical work-out strengthens our body, mediatation, which is a mental work-out should strenghten our mind. And similar to how over work-out damages our body, over meditation damages our mind too. It may be a temporary damage, it may be a parmanent damage. Hallucination like effect of intense meditation, in my humble view, are malfunctioning of mind rather than something mystic. ¡§ There is no such thing as intense meditation. Meditation is letting things go, not holding things on. Intense is when you struggle. Meditation is being yourself. ¡¨It is in no way to trash the power of mind. Mind is definietly very powerful, not only in metaphoric sense, but in proper physical sense. What is mind ? It is simply a very complex biophysical activity of our brain. Although it sounds futuristic, I think as we understand more about our brain, we will discover or, if you like, rediscover the power of mind. However, there will always be physical explanation for that power. Because mind is a physics at the end of the day. ¡§ Researchers thought in the seventies that they would know almost everything about human brain with Artificial Neural Networks within a decade. However, they realized that it was not so easy. I don¡¦t want to discuss about it but let me ask you, If human mind is so simple, then can it understand itself? If human mind is so complex, then can it understand itself? ¡¨Mind is not abstract. It is abstract to our mind only. In the brain, it is a mere matter and energy.¡¨ I wish things are so simple! ¡¨There is no subjectivity as such. Subjectivity is a set of complex objectivities that we have no tool, knowledge and time to determine individually. ¡§ It is not only the matter of tool, knowledge, and time. It is the very nature of unknowability that distinguishes it from the objectivity. ¡¨The fluidity, beauty and magic of poetry is nothing but biophysics at the end of the day. Some day in future when we will have sophisticated brain scanner, we will able to watch a movie of Nepe's (or Nepe's grand grandson's) brain writing a ghazal and next day one critique analyzing the influence of another poets in his works by using digital fingerprints of poetrying of the other poet ! ¡§ First of all, I hope such day never comes. If it comes, then there will be no poetry and human beings that we know as of today. ¡¨I know this version of life sounds boring as compared to the one of who believes in the existence of a higher consciousness independent of life and our potential to communicate with that power. But until the day I find reason to step in that version of the world, I will have to keep on living in my boring world and keep wondering what the purpose of my life should be or should have been.¡¨ By your own admission, you find your present life boring. Does that indicate something to you? However, let me tell you: We shall not cease from exploration, And the end of all our exploring Will be to arrive where we started And know the place for the first time. ¡K In my end is my beginning. (T. S. Eliot) |
| Nepe | Posted
on 09-Dec-03 09:29 PM
Gokul ji, There is no doubt that an atheist's world is cold, lonely and scary as compared to a believer's world. Perhaps for this reason, human sought mysticism very early in his civilization. Deepak Chopra says human mind is hard-wired to believe in God. I think there is some truth in it. I think it derives from our fear, our need to feel safe and secure. And with this understanding, I am totally in peace with believer's God. As for myself, I am still in search for a good or rather a noble or at least an unselfish reason to surrender to God. I know surrendering is giving your 'self'. So, isn't it an unselfish act by definition ? No, it is not. The expectation or at least the anticipation of something good happening to myself when I do so makes it a selfish act. But before all that nitty-gritty I must know more about Him. And Gokul ji, you have been scaring me by using this word 'unknowability' whenever you talk about Divinity or it's manifestations, supposing human mind is one of them. I have some questions, doubt and curiosity about this notion of 'unknowability'. Let me try to put them here briefly. My first question is, is there any basis, apart from a hypothetical possibility, for the existence of the unknowables ? I know it is paradoxical question because if we *know* it exists or may exist, then it is already not any more unknowable. So, it appears to me that we will never ever know anything about the unknowables. I also speculate that among the unknowables, those who have consciousness, will never *know* about us too. As you should have noticed, I am using 'unknowable' not to mean 'undetectable' and certainly not 'unpredictable'. Undetectability would be tool-dependent whereas 'unknowability' is tool-independent. And 'unpredictable' goes to the realm of statistics. You had used Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle in similar context somewhere. But I suppose Heisenberg's uncertaninty which is about the precision does not lead to any notion of Unknowability. Or does it ? ****** >If human mind is so simple, then can it understand itself? >If human mind is so complex, then can it understand itself? You have asked a brain-teasing question, Gokul ji. My answer is Yes and No. No is straight forward. Because mind is not an independent entity, it is simply a data processing activity of an active brain. Yes in the sense of understanding about it by simulation, education etc., which I suppose you did not mean. Although you did not mean it, let me share an ordinary but interesting enough experience of mine about what I meant by understanding about one's mind by simulation of your own mind. Until I entered into the world of politics and got corrupted, I was the least aggressive boy among my friends. My maternal grandmother even called me a Buddha once ! Anyway, I never initiated fight with anybody. When I had to fight, argue or show my anger, my person used to get split into two- one used to be a mere observer while the other used to engage in the business at hand. So I used to see myself live doing things, my face, it's reaction, it's intensity etc. This often used to moderate my reaction, which was good, if I was doing less desirable things. However, this strange self-consciousness used to occur even when I was doing nicer things. I suppose this is more or less normal to everybody. Anyway, I learned a great deal about myself by this way. Back to mind, you mentioned Artificial Neural Network. I did not know much about it before, except that the little bioinformatics I use sometimes to analyze my DNA sequence employs this method among others. Now I am curious to learn more about it. Of course the researchers of the seventies that you mentioned hoped too much too soon. But wouldn't you agree, in every new decade we will be learning more and more about functioning of our brain and building smarter and smarter machines ? Never mind if we never ever be able to build a machine with a feeling and intellect of a human mind. In any case, nobody except we human being ourselves has told us what we can or can not do. Therefore, there is no reason to set a limit before knowing there is one. |