| Username |
Post |
| capital |
Posted
on 16-Sep-02 11:22 PM
KATHMANDU, NEPAL, 15-SEP-2002: An army soldier warns photographers not to take pictures as he and other security personnel were on patrol along a busy street in Kathmandu, Sept. 15, 2002. At least four bombs went off today in the capital, a day before a nationwide strike called by Maoist rebels, but no one was injured, police said. [Photo by Devendra M. Singh, copyright 2002 by AFP and ClariNet]
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 16-Sep-02 11:40 PM
I am tired of all these attempts to denigrate the army from our beloved intellectuals
whose soul is increasingly devoid of courage, and who fail to identify who is their
friend and who is their enemy.
I mean, come on, when hundreds ka hundreds army jawans are dying, people are
trying to ironically smile that 'army is not letting photograph us'. Army deserves
to be cautious. Especially when suicide bombers canard is floating around.
Not long ago, a fellow poster gleefully circulated a highly critical account of
RNA by a foreign reporter, though he wrote that he was not party to the
view of the reporter. And we have these weak intellectuals in Kathmandu
who criticise only those who countenance criticism, and army is an easy
target now.
Our liberalism is equally senseless these days: hundreds of armies slaughtered
by an odious anachronistic movement in the foothills of Himalayas, and liberals
in Europe would like our army to fight with fists with the rebels who smuggle
lethal weapons from the porous border of south under the watchful,meaningful
sanction of the neighbor regularly, not to mention the operatives of those mortars.
RNA is in the danger of meltdown: a revolution may not necessarily take long:
Taliban captured Afganistan quickly, so did Castro and Joseph Kabila.A principled
resistance is what we need all the time. Most and foremost, the intellentsia
and its feigned sagacity in Kathmandu let down the democracy of Nepal, because
of its lack of watchful eyes, and its lack of ability to descriminate between vice
and virtue.
Thanks to the decay and avarice of intelligentsia and leadership in Kathmandu,
people outside Kathmandu doesn't have difficulty in choosing who to support:
they support whoever is in power. No wonder villagers marched with rebels
to attack the fort of Sandhikharka. They were shepherded to attend the
rally of Nepali Congress and Panchayat in the past too.
Having seen the bane of cultural revolution in China, I shudder at the thought
that a group that so openly supports the fourth wife of Mao and a scheming
paranoid Lin Biao who led the cultural revolution is gaining the strengh in
the hinterland of Nepal. At this time, to smirk at a Jawan patrolling in the
petrified street of Tripureshwar or to ask ourselves some serious questions:
it is upto us.
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| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 17-Sep-02 03:36 AM
He should have shoot the F*ing photographer on the spot.
HG
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 17-Sep-02 04:01 AM
eh, launa...
ali selauna paryo Guru-ji...binti chha...goli chain nathoki halaun ki? :)
----
Some good, forceful remarks there Biswo -- the kind we expect from you!
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| Vijaya Khatri |
Posted
on 17-Sep-02 05:33 AM
That's why I don't like to army sasan. Army should be in their camp. Maobadi should come in to the barta and present leaders in to the jail. I have samthey to you.
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| praz |
Posted
on 17-Sep-02 05:40 AM
fully agree with biswo ji....
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| devils_prey |
Posted
on 17-Sep-02 05:59 AM
oo vijayaji!! k chala ho tyesto??
army r offering their life to save our country n u say u dont like them??
n wat the shit r maobadi doing?? ki!lling innocent people?? is tha good..???
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| ashu |
Posted
on 17-Sep-02 09:47 AM
Biswo wrote:
"Not long ago, a fellow poster gleefully circulated a highly critical account of
RNA by a foreign reporter, though he wrote that he was not party to the
view of the reporter."
I plead guilty to risking Biswo's wrath.
You see, I -- Ashutosh Tiwari -- was that "a fellow poster" who so "gleefully" [and I remain tone-deaf when it comes to reading others' Web postings!] had displayed that
brazen audacity or dastardly temerity (take your pick!) to circulate "a highly critical account of RNA by a foreign reporter" i.e. Lucia, a Dutch journalist living and
working in Nepal.
Maybe I should have asked for Biswo's permission before "gleefully" posting such material that gave a, well, different or unpatriotic perspective on the ongoing
war efforts in our Nepal!!
[See the discussion under the topic: Truth obscured]
Like Biswo, I detest the Maoists.
Period.
Like Biswo, I respect the Royal Nepal Army.
UNlike Biswo, however, I do NOT worship the Royal Nepal Army.
As a citizen, I'd rather have the RNA accountable to the checks and the balances
of our messy democratic processes, and NOT have a tidy carte blanche to do as it
pleases with no sense of accountability to anyone.
If Army jawans are killed -- and killed in numbers higher than 200 on one
week-end -- then, I, as a citizen, want to know just what the hell has the
Army been doing, apparently OBLIVIOUS to the scheming/planning and
approaching thousands of Maoists, as what seems to have happened recently
in Arghakhanci.
Surely, at the very least, somebody at the Defence or Home Ministry or at the relevant institution should lose his job over that many people being killed, right?
I mean, it's been nine months. Le's be realistic. Something's just NOT right with the
way the state is fighting this war.
Sure, I want to believe the Army.
Sure, I want the Army to succeed.
More than anybody else.
But, in return, I, as a citizen, want to be assured -- PUBLICLY through the media, at the very least -- that the Army did and is doing everything possible to crush the enemies, even if it was not successful at times.
And I want sensible reasons to believe the Army and not be fed another dose of some goddamn bullshit as though the Nepali janata were nothing but kindergarten kids.
It's the bullshit, it's the process of being treated like kindergarten kids time after time . . that's what treally gets you after a while: As a citizen, I find this sort of treatment deeply humiliating, offensive, insulting and corrosive to one's confidence on RNA.
And you can't blame me then, on account of all that, if I am begining to have occasional doubts about the RNA. [The pronoun 'I' here could be substituted for any other
Nepali person].
This is why, WITHOUT disrespecting the Army, we have to, in our fragile democracy, give space to alternative views -- NOT because we agree with them per se -- but because we acknowledge that they have a right to exist and that they do exist.
Anything less would be, well, Maoism itself.
*************************
Biswo wrote:
"Having seen the bane of cultural revolution in China, I shudder at the thought
that a group that so openly supports the fourth wife of Mao and a scheming
paranoid Lin Biao who led the cultural revolution is gaining the strengh in
the hinterland of Nepal."
I am quite puzzled by this historical reference, for a number of reasons.
With the exception that both (Maoism in China and in Nepal) were/are violent affairs, the parallels between China's Cultural Revolution and Nepal's Maoist war are tenuous.
First, from what little they have said, Nepal's Maoists have said that their Maoism is a home-grown one, with Prachanda even naming his philosophy as "Prachanda Path".
This does not square well with Biswo's claim that they are openly supporting and following in the steps of Lin Biao and Jiang Qing, who NEVER went on to take
command of the central administration.
Second, Cultural Revolution took place in China in part because Mao had the support
of the armed forces. In Nepal, neither the Maoists are calling their activities some
sort of a "Cultural Revolution" nor do they have the support of the Army.
Third, Mao started Cultural Revolution in part to get back to his own old colleagues
who were, in the mid-1960s, the elites of the Party. Mao encouraged the young
to rebel against their own elders, the very people that Mao had helped to rise in s
tature among the party cadres. In Nepal's Maoist wars, we are NOT seeing this sort
of younger generation turning against the older generation.
And, fourth, a minor point, even the Chinese Embassy in Nepal has issued statements saying that the People's Republic is displeasd with the way Nepal's rebels are misusing Mao's name. Both Lin Biao and Jiang Qing, let us not forget, went on to tarnish Mao's fame among ordinary Chinese people. The implication is clear. If anything, Nepal's rebels -- who proudly all themselves Maoists -- would have nothing to do with the likes of Lin Biao and Jiang Qing.
*********
Finally, in the interest of PULIC debate, in an interest to allow different views come to te fore, I apologize in advance for having "gleefully" suggested another perspective to look into some of these issues.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| _Apsara |
Posted
on 17-Sep-02 11:08 AM
Ashu, the Green-eyed Jealous "Peer." He cannot stand anybody coming up with
a good posting with an excellent arugument. He takes one word out
of a lengthy, thought provoking posting and feebly try to use
that against the poster. He might turn this poster into Ashu vs. Biswo.
Beware. That is not the purpose of Biswo's posting.
Hey, when was the last time Ashu came here with an original and
thought provoking posting?
|
| chill_fever |
Posted
on 17-Sep-02 12:06 PM
worship? is being a supporter of the RNA mean that u worship them??
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 17-Sep-02 05:27 PM
Dear Ashu,
> Nepal's Maoists have said that their Maoism is a home-grown one, with Prachanda
>even naming his philosophy as "Prachanda Path".
>This does not square well with Biswo's claim that they are openly supporting and
>following in the steps of Lin Biao and Jiang Qing, who NEVER went on to take
>command of the central administration.
Maoism can not be homegrown one, period.
Prachanda Path came AFTER the rebellion was started. I am surprised, my friend, that
now you are taking the claim of Maoists (if they have done so) so blindly.
The fact is Nepal's Maoists, and their preceding organization called Ne Ka Paa
(Mashaal), are supporter of "Mahaan Chiniyaa Sanskritik Kraanti", and the slogans
of that purpose could be seen around Tandi until the day I was there. I have
seen articles in Janaadesh and the then Yojanaa about how their beloved "Jiang
Qing" didn't commit suicide but was somehow 'killed' in custody. RIM (Revolutionary
International Movement?) of whom Maoists are members is an international organization
that has as its members the groups of the world that consider "Maoism" (as opposed
to Mao Zedong thought ) as its guiding principle, and takes cultural revolution as
indespensable process to consummate a communist revolution.(And to say Lin Biao
and Jiang Qing were not in central administration is untrue: Lin Biao was designated
heir apparent, and Jiang Qing was, if I remember it correctly, in central comittee,
and was madame Mao.)
So, now I am wondering at your claim that cultural revolution is not what
our "home grown" dudes are so fond of.
You don't even see any relevance of that historic fact right now.
Having met Lao Sanjie (those who were sent to rural China during cultural revolution)
people in China, I still shudder at the fanatics reshuffling the social system in the way
the whole nation has to regret for generations.
And intellectuals at KTM, to take you as example, have somehow , it seems, now
started to feel what is so notoriously called Stockholm Syndrome: the feeling
that hostages feel after living under the duress of hostage-takers for long:the
hostages,it is said,feel that the hostage takers are somehow their protectors.
After living under the constant threat of rebels, it sounds like KTM's intellectuals
have now somehow started to feel that the rebels are gonna be benign.
>Maybe I should have asked for Biswo's permission before "gleefully" posting such
>material that gave a, well, different or unpatriotic perspective on the ongoing
>war efforts in our Nepal!!
No. I never said that.Please put no words in my mouth.
However, what surprised me is this: you circulated that WITHOUT corroborating , if I am
not wrong.
I am saying that, this is what our courageous intellectuals do: they attack whichever
side they find is easy to attack.
Now take this photographer as example: he is trying to take a picture of the Jawaan
as if the Jawaan is in Laakhe Naach to amuse pedestrians. The Jawaan has not
manhandled him, he is just objecting the taking of picture.And the photographer
is trying to make this a (national) issue.
Just a week ago, a Jawaan was shot in Tandi while he was walking on the street
because he was not careful enough with bypassers. How the hell can this jawaan
know who is killer and who is not among the photographers?
This same photographer has probably no courage to go to Maoist area without getting
visa from the rebels, and whenever he goes there, he will be the first one to ask for
permission to take picture.
Take another example,even Al Gore got frisked in USA airport, but in Nepal, our
dear writer Khagendra Shangraula ,whom I respect a lot, whines in Kantipur that
a jawan asked him what kind of book he was carrying with him while checking
his luggage.
People feel free to disparage army. Some people say army was excessively checking.
And yet after the attack of Sandhikharka, it was said that army wasn't even bothering
the strange people who suddenly inundated the sadarmukaam before the attack. (See
Kantipur for comments.)
--
Our intellectuals are like the protagonist of Camus's famous novel "The stranger".
The protagonist was standing in the court, listening to the arguments of his lawyer
and of the prosecutor.While listening, he started to like the arguments of the
prosecutor, who was asking for his death sentence.
Our intellectuals are like that: they are supposed to preserve the pluralist society,
they are supposed to provide energy to this system by providing valuable
suggestion. But they are somehow enamored by the shibboleth of detestable
anachronistic fighters.Some of them even think that Maoists are homegrown
movement with their own ideology.
Ashu, you accuse me of worshipping RNA. But I have always been the one who
supports civilian infusion, reform and equitable representation of all ethnic groups
in RNA. At this moment, when RNA has to fight and organize requiem of lots of
its jawaans simultaneously, what kind of support are our intellectuals giving to RNA
by circulating propoganda about RNA excesses without even bothering to
corroborate the facts?
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 17-Sep-02 06:47 PM
Biswo, well said: In this posting, each paragraph has its own value,
and this posting is a very good analysis on Nepali Intellectuals in Nepal,
who are suffering from StockSyndrome.
e.g.
Our intellectuals are like the protagonist of Camus's famous novel "The stranger".
The protagonist was standing in the court, listening to the arguments of his lawyer
and of the prosecutor.While listening, he started to like the arguments of the
prosecutor, who was asking for his death sentence.
HG
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 17-Sep-02 07:03 PM
What Nepali intellectuals have forgotten is to calculate the extend of Maoist Plans.
In China too. Mao used his all opponents to hit their first enemy. He slowly got
support from public, and once he threw first enemy then, threw 2nd and ...
finally thrown all. Its phasing out of their enemies, by aligning with next stage
enemies ...
Yesterday, they(Maoists) asked Girija to quit, Then, Deoba was their preference.
Now, Deob is in power, Girija is given alliance with Maoists. Girija looks like Maoists
spokesman. Did you read the recent article by BRB (Sept. 2), where BRB does not
criticize Girija and his associates, except he mentions, Girija was for his chair....
So, Maoists supporters I meet around here tell that its a tricks given Mao that
you should not attack all enemies at the same time. Phase them out. It is
human psychology that you take action against one enemy, the enemies of that
enemy will become friendly with you. "Dusman ko Dusman is your Mitra" Syndrome.
It is what happening in Nepal. Last time Maoists (till now) separated NC cadres
and killed them as much as they could, UML was enjoying. Now, Maoists
are separating Deoba supporters, sparing UML and Girija Kangress, and I am so
much disappointed to hear from some Girija (from UML supporters its usual
enjoyment when a Kangressi is killed, they think its a death of their enemy too)
Kangressies, "khuchung, balla payou swad. Deoba ko pachi lage ko ma.".
If there was no Deoba Kangress, would MAoists be silent now? Of course no,
now they had made half, so that Girija kangressies are now in favor of fulfilling
Maoists demands .... .....When this process continues ... some more time,
we will find Nepal a hell like place, and all intellectuals will find their place either in
remote Nepal as physical laborer or escape to India, At that time, it will be too
late to realize that they were in fact suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.
K. Dixit is one of the front line journalist who is suffering Stockholm Syndrome.
...
HG
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| DWI |
Posted
on 17-Sep-02 07:46 PM
1st of all I want to say that I am considering joining Nepal Army after 2 years (U can't join after u're 27 yrs old), despite my College degree and 5 years extensive experience here in US. It has been my family profession since my great grand pa started it.
2nd, Army needs more respect than many of us give. I have 5 friends in Army, most of them stationed to remote area of Nepal. Every time I call their family and ask how each of them are, their relatives literally cry over the phone saying that they themselves don't know how they are. Even though they call their family almost everyday..well night,the entire day their family spend time worrying 'bout their son..hoping they will go through one more day and call their parents.
That is Army life and you should know that is going to happen if you want to be a part of it.But still it demands a lot of courage to join this noble profession, specially in days like these. The pay is bad, the demand is high..need I advertise more? "Be all u can be and don't ask much in return." That specially applies to lower ranks.
I hope you all realize it is not as easy as sitting behind a computer keyboard and triggering the verbal war through 'ASDF-LKJ.'
Please give some respect and consideration to them and their family. It shouldn't be a topic to discuss or debate, it should be an imperative acceptance. Hope u understand.
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| Vijaya Khatri |
Posted
on 17-Sep-02 09:12 PM
Dear Devils Pray
This is the fighting of Bhai Bhai. Only Nepalese are fighting. The Nepal army should not fight with Nepali. This is not the motto of Nepal Army.
I am aggree with you Nepal army shaving the country. It means they have authirity to misbehave with journalists, general people and others?? They should be civilized because they are the represetaive of HMG Nepal. I am not agree with Maobadi also. Their way is not good. That's why I am officring to them to come in the talk. Everything will be solved by the peace talk. This government people have mandate for dialogue but now they are hanging Bhote Talcha for the peace talk.
You are aggree with me or not, I don't believe royal nepal army only can solve this problems. The all political party's (might be King??)only can solve through the peace dialogue. The army is only means of the secruity. This is political movement. My advise is immideately start peace dilogue.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 17-Sep-02 09:16 PM
Apsara,
I welcome challenges to my thoughts.
That is why I post in my own name, taking full responsibilities for my ideas. I
don't expect everybody to agree with my views, but at least they know my views,
which-- in a manner of OPEN inquiry -- are always evolving in light of better
evidence.
And I like to present challenges to others' thoughts -- NOT as a "jealous peer" but as someone who cares about the ideas and likes to stretch them by trying to look at
them from other sides.
One result of doing is that is that it widens he scope of our learning, and learning is one thing I am passionate about.
If this -- the cut-and-thrust of public debate to stretch learning -- is hard for you to tolerate without hurling adjectives and characterizing others as this and that, then, maybe, this sort of public debate is simply NOT for you.
Biswo,
RNA:
Well, if people feel that way about the RNA, then, let's face it, then RNA has a serious public relations problem, a problem it has done very little to address. Rather
than blaming others for disparaging the Army, why not ask the RNA to take its PR exercise seriously and start winning people's trust by delivering CREDIBLE results?
I mean, to give an example, while jawaans with last names such as Gurung, Rai, Pun, Tamang and others were being killed in the field by the Maoists, the last Sena Pati
was busy publicly releasing an album with songs about "pirati". Earlier, he was busy
in a seven-day long pooja, when, agan, jawans were being killed in the field. Hardly
the sort of behavour that, you know, inspires trust and confidence in the Army leadership, much less in their war strategy.
You call that an exercise in winning people's trust? You know, incidents like the above -- ond and off the field -- have added up to the point now where the RNA needs to think serously about how it wants to start winning what's left of peopl's trust. Thankfully, there are still many of us who, despite our occasionally raised eye-brows, are still on
the RNA's side.
Maoism:
The simple fact that there now exists something called Prachanda Path must
tell you how the Maoists have veered AWAY from the tenets of "chiniya sanskritik
kranti". Sure, they did start with a bow toward the North, but look where they are in their thought process now. That is why, to still see them as followers of Lin Biao and Jiang Qing is to fail to see how Nepali Maoists have evolved themselves to exploit
strategic advantages to their favor. If anything's becoming clear: ideology means
less and less to the so-called Maoists these days.
This is why, to bring up Chna's Cultural Revolution ko kura is good for some historical prologue, but it fails to provide an analysis of why the Maoists are doing hat they are doing today.
[My understanding of recent Chinese history have come from reading and interpreting: "China Wakes" by Nicholas D. Kristof and Sheryl WuDunn, and "China: A New History" by Fairbank and Goldman. I am presently reading "Wild Swans: Three Daughters of China" by Jung Chang.]
Intellectuals:
Well, I am NOT a psychoanalyst to declare that those hold different views from me are suffering from some kind of syndrome.
Intellectuals and non-intellectuals in Kathmandu have many faults, but they ARE -- under fairly difficult, unsafe circumstances -- trying every effort to let peace prevail in the country so that we can all get on with their lives.
It's one thing to be critical of certain strategies and thoughts of others, it's completely another characterize others as suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. This sort of characterizaion kills the debate, and reduces ideas to the level of "he-is-like-this-and-no-he-is-not-like-that" sort of parlor-game.
For this kind of debate to go further and have some substance, the one thing we -- intellectuals and non-intellectuals in Kathmandu -- can do without is some sort of
unwarranted characterizaion from afar . . . the kind of characterization, which,
oddly enough, reminds one of Maoist tactics.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| Nepe |
Posted
on 17-Sep-02 09:20 PM
I do not know if I have a myopic vision or some mysterious syndrome, but Biswoji’s notes looks like from someone who is trying to extend the state of Emergency in Sajha too. I am not opposed to the state of emergency in Maoists-infested places, but in Sajha ? I will think twice about that.
Ashu, do what your conscience says. Just because you refuse to close your eyes does not make you a pinch less patriot than any of us.
I am sorry for being so blunt. I wish I could be more polite.
And Apsaraji, could you please refrain from calling names to Ashu ? And what is that complain about him not serving you with ‘thought-provoking’ postings anymore ? Is the fact that he is not *provoking your thoughts* anymore itself not thought-provoking enough ? Please ponder.
Taal taal ka hunchhan manchhe pani !
|
| Paschim |
Posted
on 18-Sep-02 02:21 AM
Biswo, just to digress; your mentioning of Lin Biao reminded me one of the most amusing statements which I must share…before Mao could purge him, and he would submit to Mao's schemes, Lin fled (in an incompletely fuelled aircraft to Mongolia that crashed). Apparently when Mao was informed of Lin’s escape after midnight -- he is said to have said, "Let them go. The skies will rain, and widows will remarry. These things are unstoppable"!
I wanted to ask you if this episode is well-known in China. It’s such a classic statement (I read it in Philip Short’s biography of Mao a while ago). Also, Mao is said to have gone into depression after this in 1972, just like he despaired in '45 after Stalin failed to back him against Chiang Kai-shek. Short argues that in both instances, it was the *Americans* who (accidentally) rescued Mao from his misery: Truman in 1945 and Nixon in 1972.
Now, we'd never have known this reading BRB in Janadesh, would we?!
------
Anyway folks, "skies will rain and widows will remarry" -- think about that :)
|
| ananta |
Posted
on 18-Sep-02 02:58 AM
In all official documents, Lin Biao's Death is plainly mentioned as a 'Death in an ACCIDENTAL Plane Crash'(In all chinese history books also), but There are also many writers(mainly foreigners) who have described this episode as a 'MYSTERIOUS Plane Crash' I think real truth has not been come out. We all know that such episodes just remain as a 'governemnt secret' for a long time in a country like China.
In many chinese books, he is just describred as a GADDAR.
Anyway, his death occured when his difference with Mao in solving internal matters/foreign policy(mainly for relation with USSR;some events of boundy line clashes happened at that time.1969) was in maximum height.
In 1958, One of the powerful leader PENG DE HUAI(Vice Premier at that time?) Had to resigned from post and later disappeared just coz' he did not fully agree with Mao's 'Great Leap Forward'.
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 18-Sep-02 04:00 AM
Lin Biao's official residence (until his death) in southern Peking, where I happened to stay for a week, I was surprised to hear a joke on Lin Biao. Of course, peoples said Lin used to live in this great house until before he died in plane crash. Peoples (with some chinese friends) told that Biao was so scared, asked to make house that can not dismantled in one blow of missile. In fact this joke, came when I asked my guru / boss why the wall in this building are so thick. So, they were not sure when evil will come. But, bottle neck was not the almost 1 m thick walled house, but, a few cm walled airplane. ....
HG.
Well, if Deoba or RNA wish, BRB, Prachanda are in similar thin walled place i.e. in India, not in the mass of maoist rebels with guns and ...............
|
| Poonte |
Posted
on 18-Sep-02 08:04 AM
100 % with Ashu!
Respect cannot be demanded--it is EARNED!
Although I do support, and fully respect, the individual jawans that are risking their own lives to save others', RNA as a whole, an organization that is also neck-deep in corruption, nepotism, caste-ism etc., has so far failed to earn any respect from me.
|
| 25 and under |
Posted
on 18-Sep-02 03:09 PM
word limit, that is.
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 18-Sep-02 04:53 PM
Dear Ashu,
>Biswo,
>RNA:
>Well, if people feel that way about the RNA, then, let's face it, then RNA has a
>serious public relations problem, a problem it has done very little to address. Rather
>than blaming others for disparaging the Army, why not ask the RNA to take its PR
>exercise seriously and start winning people's trust by delivering CREDIBLE results?
Let's put it this way, my case rightnow is not about RNA and its publicity
stunts, but about intellectuals and their easy way to show their flashes of
brilliance and courage by attacking whichever side is easy to attack.
After all,RNA is ,at least, less evil among the two party exchanging barrages in
battlefields rightnow. The victory of RNA is means status quo for intellectuals, and
its succumbing to rebels doesn't mean that.
There is no point for us to laugh out loud at the bad luck of RNAs, and try to
portray them in worse light unwarrantedly, like the photographer was doing.
>I mean, to give an example, while jawaans with last names such as Gurung, Rai, Pun,
>Tamang and others were being killed in the field by the Maoists, the last Sena Pati
>was busy publicly releasing an album with songs about "pirati". Earlier, he was busy
>in a seven-day long pooja, when, agan, jawans were being killed in the field. Hardly
>the sort of behavour that, you know, inspires trust and confidence in the Army
>leadership, much less in their war strategy.
I agree with you, and to remind you, Biswo condemned the Prajwal shamsher in
sajha at that time too.
Yes, army has problem, but our intellectuals too have problem, and often that
problem is so glaring, gaping that it doesn't behoove them to stand in the
pedestal of virtue and smirk piously and selfrighteously at the army.
>You call that an exercise in winning people's trust?
I didn't say that. And let's not overkill the matter by unnecessarily bringing everything
about army. The issue we are addressing now is : are our intellectuals right
in condemning army in everything, running gleefully at every chance to condemn
army, circulating propoganda without even bothering to corroborate them?
>You know, incidents like the above -- ond and off the field -- have added up to the
>point now where the RNA needs to think serously about how it wants to start winning
>what's left of peopl's trust. Thankfully, there are still many of us who, despite our
>occasionally raised eye-brows, are still on the RNA's side.
I agree with you on this.
>Maoism:
>The simple fact that there now exists something called Prachanda Path must
>tell you how the Maoists have veered AWAY from the tenets of "chiniya sanskritik
>kranti".
No. Unfortunately not.
The documents of CPN(Maoists) have amply shown (fortunately, I have read
most of party documents, along with Janadesh/Yojana/and Jhilko in the past)
that Prachanda Path is not veering away from Maoism, but sticking more firmly
to it. Any hardcore Maoist will slap you in face if you say their Prachanda Path
is 'veering away from Maoism'.
Maoism is enshrined in the documents of CPN(Maoists) and is like the Quran for
our rebels.Just ask a party person of CPN(Maoist) for that.
> Sure, they did start with a bow toward the North, but look where they are in their
>thought process now. That is why, to still see them as followers of Lin Biao and Jiang
>Qing is to fail to see how Nepali Maoists have evolved themselves to exploit
>strategic advantages to their favor. If anything's becoming clear: ideology means
>less and less to the so-called Maoists these days.
If you are trying to say that:
i) CPN(Maoists) have disavowed Jiang Qing and her fanatic form of revolution, then
will you please kindly tell me which is your source for this. Any Maoists related
newspaper, or party document will serve for this. Because I believe 'mahaan
saaskritik kraanti' remains the bedrock of CPN(Maoist) and RIM's idelogy.
ii) CPN(Maoists) are just opportunists, who care about power, not principle,and
will let status-quo after they come to power, then , well I think it is a merely
wishful thinking.
>This is why, to bring up China's Cultural Revolution ko kura is good for some historical
>prologue, but it fails to provide an analysis of why the Maoists are doing hat they are
>doing today.
I didn't bring that to provide 'analysis' of 'TODAY'S' activities of Maoists, I said
I shudder at the thought that once they are in the power, dejavu chaos of
cultural revolution and its attendant impact on nation's future will be felt in Nepal
too.
>[My understanding of recent Chinese history have come from reading and
>interpreting: "China Wakes" by Nicholas D. Kristof and Sheryl WuDunn, and "China: A
>New History" by Fairbank and Goldman. I am presently reading "Wild Swans: Three
>Daughters of China" by Jung Chang.]
Good luck in your understanding of China.
>Intellectuals:
>Well, I am NOT a psychoanalyst to declare that those hold different views from me
>are suffering from some kind of syndrome.
I have not said you are:-)
>Intellectuals and non-intellectuals in Kathmandu have many faults, but they ARE --
>under fairly difficult, unsafe circumstances -- trying every effort to let peace prevail
> in the country so that we can all get on with their lives.
I agree that there is hardship, but hardship can't be pretext for any kind of
opportunism. Targetting army unfairly and unnecessarily is as futile for the
restoration of peace as is targetting Maoists one-sidedly.
>It's one thing to be critical of certain strategies and thoughts of others, it's completely
> another characterize others as suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. This sort of >characterizaion kills the debate, and reduces ideas to the level of "he-is-like-this-and-
>no-he-is-not-like-that" sort of parlor-game.
No. It doesn't kill debate, unless debating party is devoid of modicum of tolerance
for analogy. This is pert analogy, and is found on other cases too.
It reminds me of present day India too. Someone said that while most of the
intellectuals shuddered at the thought of a communalist party ruling India in 1992s,
they slowly started feeling 'they can't be that bad' once BJP looked invincible.
And that's what is the case of present day Nepal too. It won't surprise me if some
of our intellectuals start buying and memorizing red books once they hear the
red-fatigued army is approaching Mugling bazaar.
Otherwise, how should I understand your 'four points' about why rebels are not
going to perform the replica of 'cultural revolution' in Nepal?
>For this kind of debate to go further and have some substance, the one thing we --
>intellectuals and non-intellectuals in Kathmandu -- can do without is some sort of
>unwarranted characterizaion from afar . . . the kind of characterization, which,
>oddly enough, reminds one of Maoist tactics.
Come on, from AFAR or WITHIN, I am still the one concerned with Nepal, and I have
right to do comment from AFAR in a website that also serves for people living AFAR
and WITHIN. And sorry to see you resorting to extreme comparison again.
>oohi
>ashu
>ktm,nepal
------------
Nepeji,
Well, I am sad to see you are trying to amplify the issue, ie to say that I am for
sankatkaal in sajha is blatantly wrong extrapolation. Because I didn't say that,
ever. I am for freedom to ventilate thoughts here. I was exercizing my freedom to
criticise others for what I saw as incorrect action. Let's not try to kill an ant with a
gun!
--------
Paschim and Guruji,
Lin Biao was an odd person. Two weeks ago, I was reading about him in New Yorker
and I found that this general who was hydrophobic had a 71-feet long indoor pool
in his mansion in Beidaihe. He was vice president at the time (sort of Hu Jintao of
today) and was fairly powerful a person.
There is this proverb in China which is fairly famous:
Tian yao xiayu.
Niang yao Gaijia.
(aakas baata pani parchha, (bidhawaa)aaimaile bihe garchhan nai. (rokna sakinna
bhayerai chhadchha bhanne artha maa))
But I am not sure if Mao said this in that particular moment. Even if Mao said that,
it wouldn't mean anything more than a comment. Lin Biao had long Russian
association, so may be Mao meant ' tyo moro Russia bhagchha nai '.
About Peng Dehuai: he was, it was said in China, hated by Mao because he
led the contingent comprised of Mao's son in Korea war, and returned with the
bodybag for Mao's son.
May be Ananta knows this better.
|
| Sipahi refuses |
Posted
on 18-Sep-02 08:19 PM
I think Bishow has taken the argument to the logical conclusion with a lot of honesty and courage...very rare quality among Nepali intellectual 'tappartuians.' To imply that because the jawan is holding his fore finger up, how do these intellectuals impute what he is saying? He could have raised the finger for any number of reasons...may be to say "just one shot, no more!" Does that mean that RNA is the monster?
Secondly, even if he meant to say "no photos", is that enogh to say RNA is despicable organization? Our intellectuals who have travelled around the world must no that security forces, even in "democratic country with civilian control over military" will not let you photograph if it jeopardizes their duty/operation. Try doing that a US military installation and you will end up in Camp X Ray in Cuba!
Why did the jawan asked not to be photographed? May be the intellectuals do not know, or wish to ignore, the army men and their families are being individually being identified and targeted by the Maoists. Have we read the reports in which dozens of retired soldiers, jawans on home leave and their families have been murdered by the Maoists? So if this particular soldier in the picture did not want to be identified, is that a big crime?
And these intellectuals who hold protest marches, bandhs, hadtals, and all sorts of moral and political sympathy for when one Maoists central committeed member Krishna Sen (he also worked as a journalist) is captured/killed by the government. The intellectulas think this is the higest moral crisis in Nepal.
But these same intellectuals do not raise an eye lid when a number of journalists working in the districts (Rolpa, Surkhet, Jumla etc) have been killed, abducted and disappeared. So for these intellectuals/human rights/civil society/ngo frauds, it becomes a tragedy only when the Maoists are killed...they laugh (some openly, many not so openly...like some of the postings here) when the police, army people and their families are murdered.
I personally think our intellectuals have very little moral capital left.
And these buddijibis never tire of complaining about the state of emergency as it is the biggest problem in Nepal. Do these intellectuals know that in two third of the country the Maoists are running their own emergency for the past seven years...they call it Mahakal (as opposed to sankatkal of the government). Under this maoist emergency, you can not perform your family rituals, you can not celebrate festivals and religious occasions, they search you and your house any time they want, you are forced to feed them all the time, villagers are forced to transport the maoists luggage for days. And then the Maoists control your movement, to go from one village to the next you have to apply to the local commander and you travel only when he gives you a 'pass' on a slip of paper.
I am sorry that the security personnel dared to ask poet Khagendra Sangraula to check his books, but can these intellectuals imagine what kind of life the villagers are being made to live by the Maoists?
I personally think these intellectuals who are quick to condemn the government/army/police but keep mum over Maoists atrocities are either vain and cowardly--they know they can get away criticizing the government side, because it has a certain moral high ground and you can appeal against it nationally and internationally.
Or, some of the intellectuals are the above ground part of the Maoist force...they fight the ideologcial/intellectual battle for the Maoists by discrediting and disparaging the government side so as to undermine its morale and to distance it from the people.
In Nepal, I think the most corrupt and debase are not the politicians (eve gpk,kbk etc) or the bureaucrats at the Tax Department, it is our intellectuals who hold this position...morally.
So the sipahi refuses to be photographed...how is that different from Mr. Sangraula refusing to disclose his books (theoretically, that could have been a bag of explosives; how can a sipahi, working under pressure, when five bombs have gone off in the city, know that this is a great intellectual and he should not be examined?
We intellectuals complain that the government is doing enough to provide security, but when a poor police jawan does his job by checking for explosives (risking his life in the process), we again claim an royal privilege of being exempt from rules meant for the common citizen? Our great intellectuals, how can one talk with them, they want to have it both ways, literally.
Peace,
buddujibi
|
| Sipahi refuses |
Posted
on 18-Sep-02 08:21 PM
I think Bishow has taken the argument to the logical conclusion with a lot of honesty and courage...very rare quality among Nepali intellectual 'tappartuians.' To imply that because the jawan is holding his fore finger up, how do these intellectuals impute what he is saying? He could have raised the finger for any number of reasons...may be to say "just one shot, no more!" Does that mean that RNA is the monster?
Secondly, even if he meant to say "no photos", is that enogh to say RNA is despicable organization? Our intellectuals who have travelled around the world must no that security forces, even in "democratic country with civilian control over military" will not let you photograph if it jeopardizes their duty/operation. Try doing that a US military installation and you will end up in Camp X Ray in Cuba!
Why did the jawan asked not to be photographed? May be the intellectuals do not know, or wish to ignore, the army men and their families are being individually being identified and targeted by the Maoists. Have we read the reports in which dozens of retired soldiers, jawans on home leave and their families have been murdered by the Maoists? So if this particular soldier in the picture did not want to be identified, is that a big crime?
And these intellectuals who hold protest marches, bandhs, hadtals, and all sorts of moral and political sympathy for when one Maoists central committeed member Krishna Sen (he also worked as a journalist) is captured/killed by the government. The intellectulas think this is the higest moral crisis in Nepal.
But these same intellectuals do not raise an eye lid when a number of journalists working in the districts (Rolpa, Surkhet, Jumla etc) have been killed, abducted and disappeared. So for these intellectuals/human rights/civil society/ngo frauds, it becomes a tragedy only when the Maoists are killed...they laugh (some openly, many not so openly...like some of the postings here) when the police, army people and their families are murdered.
I personally think our intellectuals have very little moral capital left.
And these buddijibis never tire of complaining about the state of emergency as it is the biggest problem in Nepal. Do these intellectuals know that in two third of the country the Maoists are running their own emergency for the past seven years...they call it Mahakal (as opposed to sankatkal of the government). Under this maoist emergency, you can not perform your family rituals, you can not celebrate festivals and religious occasions, they search you and your house any time they want, you are forced to feed them all the time, villagers are forced to transport the maoists luggage for days. And then the Maoists control your movement, to go from one village to the next you have to apply to the local commander and you travel only when he gives you a 'pass' on a slip of paper.
I am sorry that the security personnel dared to ask poet Khagendra Sangraula to check his books, but can these intellectuals imagine what kind of life the villagers are being made to live by the Maoists?
I personally think these intellectuals who are quick to condemn the government/army/police but keep mum over Maoists atrocities are either vain and cowardly--they know they can get away criticizing the government side, because it has a certain moral high ground and you can appeal against it nationally and internationally.
Or, some of the intellectuals are the above ground part of the Maoist force...they fight the ideologcial/intellectual battle for the Maoists by discrediting and disparaging the government side so as to undermine its morale and to distance it from the people.
In Nepal, I think the most corrupt and debase are not the politicians (eve gpk,kbk etc) or the bureaucrats at the Tax Department, it is our intellectuals who hold this position...morally.
So the sipahi refuses to be photographed...how is that different from Mr. Sangraula refusing to disclose his books (theoretically, that could have been a bag of explosives; how can a sipahi, working under pressure, when five bombs have gone off in the city, know that this is a great intellectual and he should not be examined?
We intellectuals complain that the government is doing enough to provide security, but when a poor police jawan does his job by checking for explosives (risking his life in the process), we again claim an royal privilege of being exempt from rules meant for the common citizen? Our great intellectuals, how can one talk with them, they want to have it both ways, literally.
Peace,
buddujibi
|
| Paschim |
Posted
on 18-Sep-02 08:57 PM
test...can't post for some reason...
|
| Paschim |
Posted
on 18-Sep-02 09:26 PM
Thanks for that new info on Mao and Lin, Biswo -- was long wondering about it...I mean, your defence minister who you once groomed as heir to the Empire suddenly defects to an enemy country (with god knows how many State secrets) and your first reaction at midnight is, "skies rain, widows remarry". I really was puzzled. But if it is a local proverb, then it makes *perfect* sense.
If not a proverb I'd have ranked this alongside the magic utterances of Henry Kissinger's "Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac" to our own Subarna Shumsher's appeal to Mahendra in 2024 that he wanted to end his exile in Calcutta in order to "bhakti-purbak sahayog takrayauna" to the Raja!
A pleasure to see Biswo in action. There's something in Chitwan ko paani :)
|
| SITARA |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 05:28 AM
Biswo ji;
There is something to be said about critical thought. If education serves us right, it will enable us to think, analyse, compare and contemplate situations and Not take things at face value. So, what is wrong with the "intelligentsia" in KTM? What is right with the "intelligentsia" outside KTM? You refer to the intelligentsia and the leadership as both decaying....Whose leadership are you refering to? The leadership of those in control of the public "kursies" or the leadership behind RNA? You say, "no wonder the villagers march with rebels...they were shepherded..." Either you do not give credit to the "villagers'" and or commoners' ability to think or you think they are decaying as well. Ok, you have covered 3 groups of Nepalese population; The decaying intelligentsia, leaders and the bheda jasto commoners (villagers) who are ignorant enough to be "shepherded" along. This line of reasoning leaves out those who are not "decaying"; like the RNA, those "intellectuals living outside of Kathmandu" and perhaps the "brave non-questioning intellectuals" like yourself! Hmmmmmmmm that is quite a food for thought hoina ra?
But here is a thought: How can the "weak intellectuals" be called so if their weakness leads them to question the weakness in the system instead of mainstreaming?? Does the term Jumbo shrimp come to mind??? An oxymoron! Now, if by your ommision, you are referring to the "brave intellectuals living outside Kathmandu", I am speculating on whether you mean "abroad" or outside KTM but within Nepal! If, you are refering to the "brave, abroad-living patriotic Nepalese", I could fall into the category of abroad-living but I am neither brave nor patriotic by your definition!
But, I could experiment with being "brave" as well as "Intellectual" by saying "GO RNA, "nuke" the Maoists, wipe the countryside off those bheda-like villagers and oh yes, save democracy in the process"!!!!!! But, guess who is left to enjoy the democracy; the RNA, RNA-supporters, intellectuals who don't question and oh yes the "brave intellectuals" living outside Kathmandu! Hmmmmmm.... so what happened to "freedom of speech"? "freedom of expression"? or is there another form of "democracy" we are unaware of? has democracy translated to "divine law", "military oppression" or "intellectual suppression"???????
Oh yes, and how dare Ashu post the article!!!! Such an attrocity committed on Sajha.com....a Boston based cyber nagar!!!!!! How dare he not corroborate before posting anything against the RNA!!! Did not know "your" brand of democracy extended upto Sajhapur of Boston! Were you self righteously questioning the heinous act of Ashu's queries or his audacity of having posted "without corroborating" with those, such as yourself?
As for the "weak intellectuals" being afflicted by THE "syndrome", you might want to watch out; it can be highly contagious.... and YES, CRITICAL THOUGHT can be a dangerous commodity to possess in the days of anarchy and unaccountability (misutilization...?)of Power!!!!! You and those, such as yourself are better off not possessing it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 05:59 AM
Siphai refuses wrote:
So the sipahi refuses to be photographed...how is that different from Mr. Sangraula refusing to disclose his books (theoretically, that could have been a bag of explosives; how can a sipahi, working under pressure, when five bombs have gone off in the city, know that this is a great intellectual and he should not be examined?
--
Well, said SR. I agree with you neither less nor more than 100%. Yes, "KATOji"
in kathmandu think that govt. should put them above normal citizens when it comes
liberal, freedom and legal issues. A intellectual in Kathmandu thinks that he should
be exempted from all security checks, KATOji thinks that he should be allowed
to drive a car or motobike even while on drink, KATOji in KTM thinks that he should
be allowed to ride motorbike without helmet, because he says he knows that its
dangerous, and he is careful enough to avoid those accidents, because of his
knowledge. ... KATOji always think that they are great intellectuals and should be
given special priveleges .. in every aspect....
HG
|
| kunjan |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 06:20 AM
well written, sipaahi refuses ji.
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 06:47 AM
Sitara wrote:
Biswo ji;
There is something to be said about critical thought. If education serves us right, it will enable us to think, analyse, compare and contemplate situations and Not take things at face value. So, what is wrong with the "intelligentsia" in KTM? What is right with the "intelligentsia" outside KTM? You refer to the intelligentsia and the leadership as both decaying....Whose leadership are you refering to? The leadership of those in control of the public "kursies" or the leadership behind RNA? You say, "no wonder the villagers march with rebels...they were shepherded..." Either you do not give credit to the "villagers'" and or commoners' ability to think or you think they are decaying as well. Ok, you have covered 3 groups of Nepalese population; The decaying intelligentsia, leaders and the bheda jasto commoners (villagers) who are ignorant enough to be "shepherded" along. This line of reasoning leaves out those who are not "decaying"; like the RNA, those "intellectuals living outside of Kathmandu" and perhaps the "brave non-questioning intellectuals" like yourself! Hmmmmmmmm that is quite a food for thought hoina ra?
But here is a thought: How can the "weak intellectuals" be called so if their weakness leads them to question the weakness in the system instead of mainstreaming?? Does the term Jumbo shrimp come to mind??? An oxymoron! Now, if by your ommision, you are referring to the "brave intellectuals living outside Kathmandu", I am speculating on whether you mean "abroad" or outside KTM but within Nepal! If, you are refering to the "brave, abroad-living patriotic Nepalese", I could fall into the category of abroad-living but I am neither brave nor patriotic by your definition!
But, I could experiment with being "brave" as well as "Intellectual" by saying "GO RNA, "nuke" the Maoists, wipe the countryside off those bheda-like villagers and oh yes, save democracy in the process"!!!!!! But, guess who is left to enjoy the democracy; the RNA, RNA-supporters, intellectuals who don't question and oh yes the "brave intellectuals" living outside Kathmandu! Hmmmmmm.... so what happened to "freedom of speech"? "freedom of expression"? or is there another form of "democracy" we are unaware of? has democracy translated to "divine law", "military oppression" or "intellectual suppression"???????
Oh yes, and how dare Ashu post the article!!!! Such an attrocity committed on Sajha.com....a Boston based cyber nagar!!!!!! How dare he not corroborate before posting anything against the RNA!!! Did not know "your" brand of democracy extended upto Sajhapur of Boston! Were you self righteously questioning the heinous act of Ashu's queries or his audacity of having posted "without corroborating" with those, such as yourself?
As for the "weak intellectuals" being afflicted by THE "syndrome", you might want to watch out; it can be highly contagious.... and YES, CRITICAL THOUGHT can be a dangerous commodity to possess in the days of anarchy and unaccountability (misutilization...?)of Power!!!!! You and those, such as yourself are better off not possessing it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--------------
Everything gone above my head.. hehehhhhhhhhhhhhh...ee
Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee............. What else shall i add......
for my inability to understand P. article.
P stands for:
paranoia
\Par`a*noi"a\, n. (Med.) A chronic form of insanity characterized by very gradual impairment of the intellect, systematized delusion, and usually by delusious of persecution or mandatory delusions producing homicidal tendency. In its mild form paranoia may consist in the well-marked crotchetiness exhibited in persons commonly called ``cranks.'' Paranoiacs usually show evidences of bodily and nervous degeneration, and many have hallucinations, esp. of sight and hearing.
|
| Paschim |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 09:32 AM
Okay, I was refraining from commenting on the "mainstream" debate of this thread, because this topic has been talked about with candor in the past -- and I'm not fond of reinventing wheels; but I see some remarks here that might portray Biswo-ji as this "mainstream" voice who is supporting RNA unconditionally, one who is being hostile to "dissenting" views and questioning people's efforts to question things, one who is disparagingly generalizing the rural populace, etc.
Frankly, if there is one person here on Sajha who has criticized the RNA most brutally *AND* offered some of the most imaginative suggestions to better that institution at the same time, it is him. And only him.
A subtle reader will note that I don't agree with all he is saying -- and we have had disagreements on many issues before. But I *do* share the thrust of his points here that the so-called intelligentsia in Nepal and beyond -- from the bazaar academics and Rights activists to writers and the Bikase ilk -- has often found it fashionable to dwell on low-risk-high-return gambits of fact-less opinion making. And RNA being an untested, feudal, detached, sort of an unholy cow with royal links is a sexy target for cheap shots today, because despite all its flaws, you know a Jawaan won't come to your house in Teku to behead you at broad daylight. So by all means indulge and "critique". Try writing the same about the Maoists -- who incidentally probably don't know that even Chairman Mao said "heads don't grow back like chives", calling for some 'politeness' before killing a civilian senselessly.
Thanks to Nepali democracy, institutions like RNA and its patron the Palace, are no longer sacrosanct and have been vilified famously in recent years. You no longer become a hero in Nepal by saying unpleasant things about them. But we have to recognize that these are extremely trying times for Nepali sovereignty; and while cautioning and warning the RNA against excesses (and post-war possibilities of, for example, trying Nepali Generals from the Jungi Adda in the Hague for war crimes) have great merits, to pretend that what is ongoing in Nepal is a fair, refereed match between two disciplined sportsmen -- and to come up with novellas about broken and rigged rules that gentlemen shouldn't be breaking lest the "quality of war" falls, is absurd. This is a bloody, barbaric tussle that is guaranteed to produce NO victors, only losers. The sooner all this violence is subdued or ended, the better.
I am NOT urging anyone to keep quiet about the RNA, or support it blindly. The state HAS to act more responsibly and it can't stoop to the level of the terrorists in tactics it adopts; but at times like these, we have to choose sides and extend constructively critical support to a party by doing *least* damage to its mission (and this doesn't mean shut your eyes). And if you are a journalist looking for an opportunity to secure a story in the New York Times or a place on a discussion panel at some obscure Danish university, my polite suggestion to you is: go write about apple orchards in Jumla or smiling Japanese tourists climbing bloody Mount Annapurna.
|
| suna |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 09:48 AM
gosh!
bloody? from you?? hehehe
whatever are you and arnico drinking these days.
tsk tsk :)
|
| tropical |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 11:57 AM
Nepal has done some PR for which we need to give it credit. For example, in the beginning it went to the villages with the aim of construction and wining people's trust. Fact is, people just don't remember the good deeds in the long run.
Also just because the CNC of army was performing Puja need not necessarily mean that he was not paying attention to the goings on of the army. For example, the CNC of the american army used to spend hours at the press conference and also he may have spent considerble time praying his own gods but that was not brought out as something evil. SO why does praying to the Hindu Gods need to be brought out as something evil?
May be the CNC was in the inauguration ceremony of the "priti" cassette as a PR exercise. But was mis-interpreted. I don't know the CNC and am not a insider of army but we have to give them credit when they diserve. We always criticize any and all the people in office without regards to whether that particular person is good or not.
What This will do is: it will frustate those good people in high office from trying to compete with the bad-doers since the people do not differenciate between them.
|
| SITARA |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 12:22 PM
Paschim Ji,
I agree with you but, it is quite disheartening to listen to people denounce those who question; raise issues and question the "facts" they read. I am neither for the Maoists nor the RNA ( Unfortunately, I fall into the category of those Passivists:...Human Rightist).... but when I went to KTM this summer, and after talking to the local people, found out that people are as frightened of the RNA as of the Maoists.
They are still dealing with the the trauma of the Royal tragedy....'truth' has been vague or assumed and loyalties toward the throne are divided. The young people in KTM are afraid that they will be swiped off the street on bogus charges of being "Maoist". Two youth from our neighbourhood disappeared for a few days before they were released! And no, there was no accountability from anyone. Yes, people do live in fear of both. I talked to so many people, "intellectuals" as well as "non intellectuals", and the general tone of the environment is one of paranoa or apathy!
No! it is not one of my grieviances against My country but rather against those who have no qualms about throwing adjectives and or hurling insults against those who "post" or "question" here. It is almost like George Bush's "If you are not with us, you are against us!" Such a thought translates into "If you don't fight terroists, you are yourself a terroist". Why????????????? What is the harm in "thinking" things out, "talking" and or "expressing" opinions? By my two previous posts; one on "human rights" and the other one on "weak intelligentsia", I have no doubt that I will be cheerfully hanged as a "Maoist" or a "Mao sympathizer" by some of the Patriots here in Sajha!
And with this said.... I rest my case on this subject!!!!!!!!
Hahooguru ji;
As a well-meaning fan, I suggest you extract the "chewing gum" that seems to be stuck on your teeth; Hence, the sound of "GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" Were you trying to take the "Christian God's" Name in Vain? As for things flying over your head, it must be the Halo around your esteemed head!!!
:)
|
| Pooonte |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 01:10 PM
I think someone said it before...we cannot hide all the ills, pretend all is fine, and simply try to move on--we cannot just write/talk about "orchards in Jumla, or smiling Japanese tourist climbing the bloody Mt. Annapurna" (gosh, one would have reasons to believe Annapurna literally might be bloody these days!) while the country is in turmoil.
The ONLY way to solve the crisis at hand is to take it head on, struggle with the reality, laud the parties when they deserve it, criticize them when they fail to deliver (constructively, of course!), introduce numerous creative ideas, and try each one of those ideas until you find the one that works.
While I agree that some intellectuals/politicians may be criticizing the RNA simply to find an escape goat to hide their own short comings, which is utterly wrong, I also think there are some other quarters that are critical of either side of the conflict in a constructive manner. Where they err, no matter which side they are, I believe it is a rightful duty of the enlightened to be critical of them.
The RNA has a boulder task on it's shoulder, of fighting the terrorists while maintaining the balancing act of seeming humanitarian while being tough. We must certainly be cautious in criticizing an organization that has been called upon to do something that many had failed to do to begin with. However, when they commit egregious blunders like failing to pick up on the "bhela" of thousands of Maoists near their bases, one would only wonder if they are at all upto their task. It would also help if they let the journalists roam the war zones freely so that the public can confirm their "clean" handling of the battles, that they are doing their utmost in respecting human rights both of the enemies and of the civilians. I certainly loathe the jungalee Maoists when they commit crimes against human dignity, but it is worse when a well-established state institution does the same. I fail to comprehend the idea that gaining popularity by doing the right thing can be harmful to the morale of the soldiers.
There are, of course, other qualms I have about the RNA, like nepotism, casteism, corruption ("commissions" on purchase of military hardwares), etc.(the fact that these are prevalent in other sectors of the governmental institutions does not justify it's presence in the army), but these are issues that would require a whole new debating forum.
So long!
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 02:09 PM
Biswo wrote:
Let's put it this way, my case rightnow is not about RNA and its publicity
stunts, but about intellectuals and their easy way to show their flashes of
brilliance and courage by attacking whichever side is easy to attack.
After all,RNA is ,at least, less evil among the two party exchanging barrages in
battlefields rightnow. The victory of RNA is means status quo for intellectuals, and
its succumbing to rebels doesn't mean that.
There is no point for us to laugh out loud at the bad luck of RNAs, and try to
portray them in worse light unwarrantedly, like the photographer was doing.
***************
Biswo,
You have already declared -- quite grandly -- that the so-called intellectuals in Kathmandu (whoever they are!) are suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome".
Now, is there anything further for you to say?
No.
Now, I am NOT going to sit here and argue with you whether people in Nepal are suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome" or not.
As someone living in Kathmandu, I know that people here -- both intellectuals and non-intellectuals -- are simply tired of the violence, and are eager to get on with their lives.
They also know that when the jawaans with last names such as Rai, Gurung, Magar,
Pun and so on get killed in the field, those hapless souls seem to get killed under circumstances that only go on to hint loudly about RNA's own puzzling states of unpreparedness and even, by extension, overall lack of seriousness about
WINNING this war, if this is what they want.
No, I am NOT saying that the jawaans are not serious: but what infuriates me -- as a citizen -- is that: more and more I see the jawaans being made some sacrificial lambs when BETTER and MORE THOROUGH preparations against Maoist attacks could have been made . . . in Surkhet, in Dang, in Arghakachi and so on . . . but were not.
You and others seem to think that being critical of RNA is tantamount to being supportive of the Maoists, or that it is tantamount to commiting some act of
treason or being a traitor.
But the truth is that most people crticize the RNA because they care about it, and really
want it to succeed and are sorely disappointed, even crushed, when it doesn't.
You know, Paschim seems to admire your bravery. But the fact is that you could NOT even confront me openly about that posting which I posted -- in my own name,
the one about a journalist's account that was critical of the RNA.
Records show that you showed your disdain NOT by arguing with the SUBSTANCE of that report but by announcing that my (the poster's) tone was "gleeful", and tried to "fasao" me into some sort of "guilt by association" with Lucia, as though I myself
were in some sort of cahoots with other intelletuals in Kathmandu to denounce the
RNA.
Such was your tactics that others like Nepe felt compelled to remind you NOT to
extend the state of Emergency into sajha!!
And you accuse me of "resorting to extreme comparisons"!!
[Sure, I play hardball, but you can't accuse me being unfair, and I remember my
previous debates with you re: Safa Tempo, re: that poet from Alabama,
re: Kunda Dixit's statement and so on.]
******************
Biswo wrote:
Yes, army has problem, but our intellectuals too have problem, and often that
problem is so glaring, gaping that it doesn't behoove them to stand in the
pedestal of virtue and smirk piously and selfrighteously at the army.
------------
Well, even if people are indeed smirking at the RNA, so what?
Would other people's smirking destroy the RNA as we know it?
No.
And if you say that smirks would kill the RNA, then what kind of RNA do we have anyway that cannot even handle criticisms by some members of the public -- the
very folks who fund the army in the first place?
Our democracy is far from pefect, but if we can all push forth the idea that in our democracy, no one -- including the King and the Army and the political leaders -- is ABOVE critical questioning either by the individuals or by the mediam that would be such a great achievement.
If the RNA doesn't know this, well, it should -- BY NOW. And it's our duty -- as citizens -- to remind the RNA that we are not back in some pre-1990 ko Nepal.
***************
Biswo wrote:
I didn't say that. And let's not overkill the matter by unnecessarily bringing everything
about army. The issue we are addressing now is : are our intellectuals right
in condemning army in everything, running gleefully at every chance to condemn
army, circulating propoganda without even bothering to corroborate them?
________
Well, listen, you cannot have it both ways.
You cannot declare the intellectuals as people suffering from Stockholm Syndome
on the one hand, and then turn around and ask for "corroborartion" on the other
hand?
If they are suffering from SS, then they can't corroborate.
If they can corroborate, then, they are not suffering from SS.
Still, to test your own hypothesis (i.e. that the intellectusla say things wthout corroborating) why don't you, for a start, take Lucia's article as it is, and then start proving it WRONG or exaggerated by visiting the field yourself and coming up with counter-evidence?
Then I and others can take your criticisms seriously.
Unless you can do that, or have that done, let's face it, your GENERAL gaali-stuffed criticisms of Nepali intellectuals from afar are as HOPELESS as their, as you say,
criticisms of the RNA . . . and, if so, that makes you both hopeless in your own
GENERAL gaali.
So what's new?
Re: Maoism -- let us simply agree to disagree, and let that be that.
A very Happy Indra Jatra to everyone!!
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 02:12 PM
Biswo wrote:
Let's put it this way, my case rightnow is not about RNA and its publicity
stunts, but about intellectuals and their easy way to show their flashes of
brilliance and courage by attacking whichever side is easy to attack.
After all,RNA is ,at least, less evil among the two party exchanging barrages in
battlefields rightnow. The victory of RNA is means status quo for intellectuals, and
its succumbing to rebels doesn't mean that.
There is no point for us to laugh out loud at the bad luck of RNAs, and try to
portray them in worse light unwarrantedly, like the photographer was doing.
***************
Biswo,
You have already declared -- quite grandly -- that the so-called intellectuals in Kathmandu (whoever they are!) are suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome".
Now, is there anything further for you to say?
No.
Now, I am NOT going to sit here and argue with you whether people in Nepal are suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome" or not.
As someone living in Kathmandu, I know that people here -- both intellectuals and non-intellectuals -- are simply tired of the violence, and are eager to get on with their lives.
They also know that when the jawaans with last names such as Rai, Gurung, Magar,
Pun and so on get killed in the field, those hapless souls seem to get killed under circumstances that only go on to hint loudly about RNA's own puzzling states of unpreparedness and even, by extension, overall lack of seriousness about
WINNING this war, if this is what they want.
No, I am NOT saying that the jawaans are not serious: but what infuriates me -- as a citizen -- is that: more and more I see the jawaans being made some sacrificial lambs when BETTER and MORE THOROUGH preparations against Maoist attacks could have been made . . . in Surkhet, in Dang, in Arghakachi and so on . . . but were not.
You and others seem to think that being critical of RNA is tantamount to being supportive of the Maoists, or that it is tantamount to commiting some act of
treason or being a traitor.
But the truth is that most people crticize the RNA because they care about it, and really
want it to succeed and are sorely disappointed, even crushed, when it doesn't.
You know, Paschim seems to admire your bravery. But the fact is that you could NOT even confront me openly about that posting which I posted -- in my own name,
the one about a journalist's account that was critical of the RNA.
Records show that you showed your disdain NOT by arguing with the SUBSTANCE of that report but by announcing that my (the poster's) tone was "gleeful", and tried to "fasao" me into some sort of "guilt by association" with Lucia, as though I myself
were in some sort of cahoots with other intelletuals in Kathmandu to denounce the
RNA.
Such was your tactics that others like Nepe felt compelled to remind you NOT to
extend the state of Emergency into sajha!!
And you accuse me of "resorting to extreme comparisons"!!
[Sure, I play hardball, but you can't accuse me being unfair, and I remember my
previous debates with you re: Safa Tempo, re: that poet from Alabama,
re: Kunda Dixit's statement and so on.]
******************
Biswo wrote:
Yes, army has problem, but our intellectuals too have problem, and often that
problem is so glaring, gaping that it doesn't behoove them to stand in the
pedestal of virtue and smirk piously and selfrighteously at the army.
------------
Well, even if people are indeed smirking at the RNA, so what?
Would other people's smirking destroy the RNA as we know it?
No.
And if you say that smirks would kill the RNA, then what kind of RNA do we have anyway that cannot even handle criticisms by some members of the public -- the
very folks who fund the army in the first place?
Our democracy is far from pefect, but if we can all push forth the idea that in our democracy, no one -- including the King and the Army and the political leaders -- is ABOVE critical questioning either by the individuals or by the mediam that would be such a great achievement.
If the RNA doesn't know this, well, it should -- BY NOW. And it's our duty -- as citizens -- to remind the RNA that we are not back in some pre-1990 ko Nepal.
***************
Biswo wrote:
I didn't say that. And let's not overkill the matter by unnecessarily bringing everything
about army. The issue we are addressing now is : are our intellectuals right
in condemning army in everything, running gleefully at every chance to condemn
army, circulating propoganda without even bothering to corroborate them?
________
Well, listen, you cannot have it both ways.
You cannot declare the intellectuals as people suffering from Stockholm Syndome
on the one hand, and then turn around and ask for "corroborartion" on the other
hand?
If they are suffering from SS, then they can't corroborate.
If they can corroborate, then, they are not suffering from SS.
Still, to test your own hypothesis (i.e. that the intellectusla say things wthout corroborating) why don't you, for a start, take Lucia's article as it is, and then start proving it WRONG or exaggerated by visiting the field yourself and coming up with counter-evidence?
Then I and others can take your criticisms seriously.
Unless you can do that, or have that done, let's face it, your GENERAL gaali-stuffed criticisms of Nepali intellectuals from afar are as HOPELESS as their, as you say,
criticisms of the RNA . . . and, if so, that makes you both hopeless in your own
GENERAL gaali.
So what's new?
Re: Maoism -- let us simply agree to disagree, and let that be that.
A very Happy Indra Jatra to everyone!!
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 03:35 PM
>Biswo wrote:
>Let's put it this way, my case rightnow is not about RNA and its publicity
>stunts, but about intellectuals and their easy way to show their flashes of
>brilliance and courage by attacking whichever side is easy to attack.
>After all,RNA is ,at least, less evil among the two party exchanging barrages in
>battlefields rightnow. The victory of RNA is means status quo for intellectuals, and
>its succumbing to rebels doesn't mean that.
>There is no point for us to laugh out loud at the bad luck of RNAs, and try to
>portray them in worse light unwarrantedly, like the photographer was doing.
>***************
>Biswo,
>You have already declared -- quite grandly -- that the so-called intellectuals in
>Kathmandu (whoever they are!) are suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome".
>Now, is there anything further for you to say?
>No.
Why?
>Now, I am NOT going to sit here and argue with you whether people in Nepal are
>suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome" or not.
Unfortunately, that is what you are picking in my whole posting.
The problem with your posting is it is quite ambivalent: reflecting perhaps your own
views in almost everything including our previous debates. Your
views like I don't like Maoists/ I don't like RNA / Maoists are not gonna do
cultural revoultion stuff /So I am right is just the sign of that.
>As someone living in Kathmandu, I know that people here -- both intellectuals and non-
>intellectuals -- are simply tired of the violence, and are eager to get on with their lives.
I didn't say they are not. I said that, however, their action has something I find
objectable.
Please refute what I have said. If I haven't said something, then refuting that
is not gonna yield any point for you.
If your point is they are so true all the time, they are so inspiring in this time of
difficulty, then , that is what I am going to disagree on.
>They also know that when the jawaans with last names such as Rai, Gurung, Magar,
>Pun and so on get killed in the field, those hapless souls seem to get killed under
>circumstances that only go on to hint loudly about RNA's own puzzling states of
>unpreparedness and even, by extension, overall lack of seriousness about
>WINNING this war, if this is what they want.
Well, I checked last time, and I found jawaans of more diverse sirnames among the
killed. So, there goes your attempt to narrow the list of killed ones.
And if you check more ordinary people killed by Maoists, you will find more diverse
name.
But most importantly, the defeat of RNA in some fronts doesn't provide people with
excuse to laugh out loud and pretend THEY ARE GREAT and 'maile ta bhanekai
thiye ni'.
>No, I am NOT saying that the jawaans are not serious: but what infuriates me -- as a
>citizen -- is that: more and more I see the jawaans being made some sacrificial lambs
>when BETTER and MORE THOROUGH preparations against Maoist attacks could have
>been made . . . in Surkhet, in Dang, in Arghakachi and so on . . . but were not.
I didn't say you were saying Jawaans were not serious.
So, it surprises me to read your rebuttal, you are rebutting something that I haven't
said.
>You and others seem to think that being critical of RNA is tantamount to being
>supportive of the Maoists, or that it is tantamount to commiting some act of
>treason or being a traitor.
Again, untrue.
My posting is this: ridiculing RNA jawaans for all reasons, including for not mugging
for photograph, is something ridiculous.
>But the truth is that most people crticize the RNA because they care about it, and
>really want it to succeed and are sorely disappointed, even crushed, when it doesn't.
>You know, Paschim seems to admire your bravery. But the fact is that you could NOT
>even confront me openly about that posting which I posted -- in my own name,
>the one about a journalist's account that was critical of the RNA.
This is crazy. I didn't criticize you on that posting because I was not interested in
arguing with you at that time. I have my right to ARGUE with you when I LIKE,
where I LIKE, and I am only amused at your charge of ' aginai kina bhaninas'
type.
It also proves, folks, that I was not against postings of such kind.
I was against the attitude of posters who find it easy to attack and, circulate
unfounded truth about, RNA.
Period.
I find your whining about all that story and your drawing of Nepe's name on this
as 'your friend in argument' as unnecessary and ludicrous. Because frankly I have
replied Nepeji already about my comment on his comment.
If you post something, but you are not ready to take criticism about that, then
what kind of readiness for argument is that? What kind of "I WRITE IN MY
NAME, I AM READY TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT" claim are you making?
And for your information, in this forum I am also writing stuff in my name,
and your argument about that, again and again, only is like 'indra ko agaadi
swarga ko bayaan'.
>Records show that you showed your disdain NOT by arguing with the SUBSTANCE of
>that report but by announcing that my (the poster's) tone was "gleeful", and tried
>to "fasao" me into some sort of "guilt by association" with Lucia, as though I myself
>were in some sort of cahoots with other intelletuals in Kathmandu to denounce the
>RNA.
I didn't show my disdain for you.On the contrary, I respect you as a fellow
poster.
Your posting was an instance in this site, which I could use as my argument at any
time I like.
That is what posting in public domain means.
Your record is here, for all us to see: how you try to argue about things you don't
know, how you try to circulate things without corroborating, how you try to kill
arguments about SUBSTANCES by resorting to extreme comparisons despite
repeatedly promising not to do that.
And of course, I could use that as an example any time.
>Such was your tactics that others like Nepe felt compelled to remind you NOT to
>extend the state of Emergency into sajha!!
>And you accuse me of "resorting to extreme comparisons"!!
>[Sure, I play hardball, but you can't accuse me being unfair, and I remember my
>previous debates with you re: Safa Tempo, re: that poet from Alabama,
>re: Kunda Dixit's statement and so on.]
I don't mind your playing hardball, because I stand by my opinion.
I am also NOT afraid to express my opinion openly about my friends and talk
openly about them. I don't defend someone just because they are my friends.
To speak up your mind about your friends, you once needed courage. Now, take
RNA as example, you are speaking about RNA with harshness because, one can
argue this way also, you know you don't need courage, or you don't run risk of
antagonizing anyone seriously, and unlike with friends,you don't risk a friendship
with RNA jawaan.
I know this statement sounds harsh to you, but I am sure you will be able to
look at your own previous arguments, and take this as a good advice from me,
my friend.
>Biswo wrote:
>I didn't say that. And let's not overkill the matter by unnecessarily bringing everything
>about army. The issue we are addressing now is : are our intellectuals right
>in condemning army in everything, running gleefully at every chance to condemn
>army, circulating propoganda without even bothering to corroborate them?
_>_______
>Well, listen, you cannot have it both ways.
Ashu, you are making this argument unnecessarily boring.
I am providing examples ka examples about why I think what I think.This was one
of them.
>You cannot declare the intellectuals as people suffering from Stockholm Syndome
>on the one hand, and then turn around and ask for "corroborartion" on the other
>hand?
Why I can't? What kind of censorship is this?
>If they are suffering from SS, then they can't corroborate.
No. Stockholm syndrome is different from ability to corroborate. Even during the
'hypnotism' of hostage takers, one can corroborate the facts.
>If they can corroborate, then, they are not suffering from SS.
Well, you know better:-)
>Still, to test your own hypothesis (i.e. that the intellectusla say things wthout
>corroborating) why don't you, for a start, take Lucia's article as it is, and then start
>proving it WRONG or exaggerated by visiting the field yourself and coming up with
>counter-evidence?
Because I don't have to do that, because I am not the writer or I am not the
circulator. Listen, if you are trying to circulate something, if you are hoping the readers
to believe that you are veracious, the onus is upto you to corroborate at least
something.
>Then I and others can take your criticisms seriously.
which 'others'? Don't say you are not taking my criticisms seriously. Because this
is gonna be a big lie from you. Otherwise, why are you awake in the midnight
and writing so furiously and voluminously?
>Unless you can do that, or have that done, let's face it, your GENERAL gaali-stuffed
>criticisms of Nepali intellectuals from afar are as HOPELESS as their, as you say,
>criticisms of the RNA . . . and, if so, that makes you both hopeless in your own
>GENERAL gaali.
Your argument here is again devoid of SUBSTANCE.
>So what's new?
>Re: Maoism -- let us simply agree to disagree, and let that be that.
Yes, because you couldn't find any source to prove your points that Prachanda
Path is different from(revision of) Maoism and that Cultural revolution is something
they are not gonna repeat in Nepal or what?
Anyway, you are always free to write whatever you write, and run away from that
whenever you want.And even to accuse others of being like Maoist when someone finds
fault in them.
>A very Happy Indra Jatra to everyone!!
Same to you!
>oohi
>ashu
>ktm,nepal
|
| Sabina |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 04:45 PM
Two respected heavywights of Sajha. Ashu and Biswo... :) Good debate guys. We got chance to learn.
So far Biswo is little bit stronger than Ashu in this debate game. Let's see what will happen in next round.
|
| sipahai refuses |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 05:21 PM
A few words of ignorance!
1. There are many motivations/reasons/interests from which I see people criticizing the Nepali government/army. Among these positions I find two important constituencies:
a. Dyed in the wool communists who want to have a communist republic. They are not formal Maoists guerrillas who fight in the trenches in Sandhikharka or Accham, but they do it with their pens in Kathmandu. Their sole purpose is to discredit the government, create schism between the government and the people..and generally give the impression that the Maoists are better than this chor government. They might say I am neutral, I am independent leftist (a la Tuladhar), I am only a human right activist or civil society person, but you know where their sympathies lie by reading a couple lines from their writing or speaking.
b. The second group of people I see attacking the government/security forces are the actual beneficiaries of the present and the past regimes...they or their ancestors became "successful" by bribe, commission, contract, or outright embezzlement of public positions. Now they have some guilt and fear of being brought to justice or notice (like the now aborted CIAA actions against the 22 Tax officials). The best way to hide that blemish and blend with the 'people' is to shout the loudest against the government and show off your leftist/romantic/progressive image. So if you blast the RNA now as corrupt, feudal, castist, murderous, genocidal...etc. etc., you get the credentials of being the enlightened popular conscience. After all,what better credentials of speaking for the people than legitimating the Maoist ...who are The People!
2. And there are those who criticize the Government/army, from a foreign perspective...foreign journalists, human rights, Amnestry etc., foreign governments, and scholars. They all have their own ideological/political axes to grind in the Nepali conflict.
3. And there are a few people who criticize the government when it fails through omission or commission. This criticism is constructive, to improve the governannce. They don't make a mountain of a mole hole when the army chief was found to be releasing the music tape when the Maoists made a suprise attack. When the al Kaida struck the Twin towers and the Pentagon, Mr. Bush was chatting with grade school children in Florida. Nobdoy laughed at Bush saying "Look, the country is being attacked viciously, what is our president doing...playing with keta keti!" The RNA chief was lucky that the journalists did not find him in a bath room at the time..."Kasto bekuf senapati, uta tetro hamala huindaicha, yeta eu turi gardicha!"
Peace!
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 07:29 PM
What it looks from Ashu vs Biswo?
Citing dissatisfaction on previous threads, is sign that they are tending to
be personal. When you get personal, you end up quite away from
the core of the thread. Your relation will soon end up in GALI-GALOUSE
and never reparable. ITs based on my experience in SAjha.com and
other places like SCN, TND. So, either one party should stop, even though
we have not drawn a final conclusion. Well, there are some topics which
has no clear cut, YES NO borders, but, very blurred. The topic you are
discussing surely has a blurred border line, and its better to suspend
before your personal engine cools down. Well, discussion is never ending
process when we have border that is very blurred, as in the current topic.
Both of you had valid points, and we have to take it. Let all readers grasp
it, before it becomes:
First, its interesting.
Now it is tending to be boring.
Let it not be, yaaaaaaaaaaaaaawing.
A friend of mine, who was very agressive in his college and univ days, is
now so cool. When I asked him whats the reason. He told following story:
Two very knowledgable bidwans "RISHI MUNI", were invited to discuss/debate
on a topic and asked to discuss on either side of topic. king, the organizer,
asked peoples to listen to them. The discussion / debate started, it continued
for days, almost 1 week. Then, the wife of "A" rishimuni, stood up and said
that his husband is goig to loss this debate. Well, every one was surprised,
because there was no indication who could be winner. The wife clarified that
her husband's voice is now up, she addred "it seems he is drained out of contents for
further discussions (he knows it), well, it may take another one week to finally
conceive the loss, but, I suggest him to give up right now, before it becomes
late, he loss all his achievements of the pasts". Well, after hearing her reco.
the RISHI realized and gave up the debate until he gathered more material to
continue the topic..... Shall we?
Sunne lai sun ko mala, bujhne ... jala....
Iti sri.
HG
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 09:33 PM
Biswo wrote:
"or you don't run risk of antagonizing anyone seriously, and unlike with friends,you don't risk a friendship with RNA jawaan."
This is an example of what I mean about your debating strategy.
You make an assumption.
Then you give your conclusion by extending that assumption to a point and also by LABELING the opposition as this and that.
But when challenged to back up your assumption, then, you say, "Oh, I didn't say
that" and then change try to change tracks and go on to pillory your opponents all
the more.
Another example: I am focussing on the Stockholm Syndrome because once you characterize opponents (intellectuals -- the THRUST of the discussion here, in this
case) as suffering from such a disorder, then, there's really nothing left for you to
say and you have basically colored the debate in highly prejudicial terms.
That'[s why, I issued you a simple challenge: Prove Lucia's article wrong on FACTUAL grounds, and then your criticisms shall have weight.
If you cannot do that, then, you have no right to use that article as a stand-in for intellectuals' so-caled cowardice, and then go on to lump others as suffering from
some kind of SS.
In the above case, you simply ASSUMED that I have no friends in the RNA, and
then went on to give your interpretations of my behaviour.
Let me just say that your assumption is flat-out wrong.
[I try to answer ideas with ideas whenever posssible, and NOT try to argue back by
posting parts of my resume or CV to show/intimidate others just who I know in
the Army and who I don't. In other words, I am NOT interested in posting my resume
as a defense mechanism. And so, I am not going to publicly boast about my high-level and low-level connections in the RNA. Let's leave this at that.]
***********
Re: Maoists, all you have said is: you jave read jhilko, Janadesh and so on.
Fine.
But just DECLARING that you have read those newspapers is NOT the same as documenting proofs for your argumements.
And when I got tried of your "I have read this, this and this, therefore I am right" attitude, I simply said let us agree to disagree.
But no, you wanted to seize that chance to portray me as running away from the debate. I mean, what can I say?
Finally, I have been careful NOT to bring in extraneous assumptions, not to hurl adjectives at those who disagree with me, and have tried to stick to the TEXT of
kurakani (even going to the extent of carefully QUOTING others.
And I am happy to be doing just that.
One more tip: I have actually have had a long conversation with Khagendra Sangraula. My impression is that he writes the stuff he writes in part to play to the certain gallery
of readers who he knows will be reading his stuff, and nodding yes to it.
A intellectual, by definition, writes for himself or herself and deals with the consequences as they come. One criticism one can make about intellectuals
in Kathmandu is that they write for others and NOT for their own selves, to
confront the truth as they see it.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 10:20 PM
Guruji,
Please be assured that this discussion , if past is any guide, is not gonna irreparably
harm relation between Ashu and I.
Even though I haven't personally met Ashu, we have cordial email relationship,and
it will remain so whenever situation arises. Because Sajha's discussions are, still
despite reaching border, ideological. Like I always said, despite disagreeing with
Ashu a lot of times, I also respect him for a lot of his strength.
People shouldn't expect candy-bar talk all the time here.
--
Ashu,
Lucia's stuff didn't come suddenly, and veracity of the stuff wasn't my issue from
the start.
What I was trying to point out was this: that whenever our intellectuals get fodder
for cheap shots, they jump at that 'without' even bothering to corroborate it.
Did I say Lucia was wrong? Anywhere in my posting?
No.
What I said was this: the intellectuals seize the moment for some free cheap shots
at the side that is the most tolerant.Like this photographer did.Like you did.There
was a context for my quote.
Now, another cheap shot is asking me to proof the veracity: fully knowing that I
am living in Houston, Texas and in no situation to go to Maoist affected areas and
inquire about Lucia's sources. This is what I wanted to point out when I was
talking about courage and resignation of our intellectuals.
It bothered me immensely when you implied those living afar can't criticize the
intellectuals, ie KTM intellectuals can do without such criticism. Criticisms as
innocuous as those posted in sajha.com shouldn't be met with such
vehement antipathy, and that in no way is a democratic practice.
--
Thanks for your points about Khagendra Shangraula. I respect him for his writing
style, and I read him regularly. But like I said, I disagree on those issues that
I find deplorable.
I am not a member of fan club except for Guruji's, as you very well know.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 19-Sep-02 11:09 PM
Biswo,
I too assure you and our respected Hahoo-guru-ji that all these heated discussions will have NO harmful effects in my cyber-friendship with you.
One mark of the younger generation of Nepalis like us should be: We are free to
disagree with one another, even heatedly and vehemently, without being sworn enemies of any kind and without disparaging one another.
If we can achieve that -- collectively and consistently -- then, that's a solid progress over our parents' generation.
I also agree that we need not sweet-talk one another all the time and should feel
free to speak up our mind, even when our differences are sharp.
**********
That said, yes, you can criticize intellectuals from afar. But my suggestion is: go light on adjective-hurling while being heavy on substance-challenging. That's all.
My only concern is that just as we all want criticisms, or for that matter praise, of the Army all backed up with evidence and all that, let us also ask for criticisms of the intellectuals all backed up with evidence too.
I mean, that our intellectuals are khattam is a well-known fact, and we won't get anywhere repeating that endlessly. I, for one, am more interested in WHY intellectuals are the way they are.
In another thread with Siwalik, I pointed out some of the institutional set-ups and oranizational structures in Nepal that are NOT amenable to the flowering of
independent thoughts -- the hallmark of any intellectual worth his name. Another
poster SMR gave some exellent pointers on how those problesm could perhaps be tackled.
In my earlier posting in this thread, I wrote that intellectuals like Khagendra Sangraula appear, at times, NOT to be speaking from their heart but to be playing to the gallery,
by being some sort of a crowd-pleaser.
I regret that about Khagendra Sangraula, but having watched him from close enough quarters, I have come to understand, or so I think, why KG does what he does at
times, his saying these outrageous things that are at odds with his intellectual
persona.
I am also thinking that maybe -- thorough no one's fault -- there are indeed limits to having independence of thoughts in Nepal, you know. At any rate, the issues here
are sufficiently complex to come up with easy answers.
Then again, only by doing an OPEN kura-kani are we going to get a handle on these matters.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 22-Sep-02 12:24 AM
I have few things to say. So dhilai bhaye pani raakhdaichhu.
First of all, I want to say, after reading the whole thread and concluding for myself that we still do not have an uncontroversial ‘national resolve’, one of the basic thing a country needs to move forward, I succumb to a deep sadness and despair. But I have faith in our future. It will be before long that we will find our resolve and when that happens every citizen, including me, Suna, Sitara, Ashu and every KATOjis, will trust the state like Biswoji, Sipahi refusesji, Paschimji and HGji and, when necessary, will fight with Maoists, or any force challenging the state for that matter, with the same vehemence and resolve. Until then, let’s fight with the Maoists and support the state of Nepal with whatever resolve our conscience provide us individually. Expect more than this at your own expense of testosterone and serotonin.
If I have to check one thing as the most responsible for the current tragedy of Nepal, I will check our wrong culture of claiming/accepting a concession. I fondly recall this ‘concession theory’ of mine was approved by our revered HahooGurudev himself. Let me borrow a para of mine from the thread of 'Politics and Hope'.
"...Yes, I know Maoists are Mao, Pol Pot, and Josef Stalin rolled into one. I have no doubt about that. I have closely studied them. But I believe these three characters that constitute them can be killed one by one without firing a single shot if we wish so and if we have courage, vision and wisdom. Let me elaborate my thoughts. Naya Keta and Dilasha in some of earlier postings have argued that we probably have a proper political system in place, but we lack a political culture. Agreeing largely on this, I would put it in this way. Apart from a small flaw, we have an almost proper political system in place. But that small flaw is significantly preventing a good political culture to emerge. Because the system encourage us to ignore the flaw as harmless or even worse forces us to misrepresent that flaw as necessary and good, we have inherited a corrupted political culture which is liberal to accept some overlap of truth and falsehood. Every politician and political party in Nepal think when they say one right thing, they have earned a concession of telling three lies. And everybody have practiced that concession without a second thought and without shame. Maoists are the best user of that. Their thought system goes like this- since they oppose monarchy, they have concession to be Stalin. Since they are against casteism, sexism and social injustices, they have right to be a Pol Pot. Since the other politicians and royals are crook, they have obligation to be a Maoist. If we rectify our flaws and weaknesses, we will disarm Maoists from this concession. It is equivalent of breaking their back for good...."
I want to emphasize that nobody- the palace, the political parties, individuals- is free from the Concession Syndrome in Nepal. I dare to extend it here and argue that a part of the anger of our friends including Biswoji were in may be due to the Concession Syndrome. RNA is engaged in the most critical task of defending the state and the people. So ignore minor weaknesses and flaws. Suppress everything that may challenge their morale It may sound right. But look at it this way, Maoists are using the same thought process as I elaborated above. So, in a way, you are justifying the Maoists - by doing what they are doing. Justification may be no big deal for you. But it is definitely a big deal for Kathmandu ka ‘unhelpful’ intellectuals.
Let’s talk about the unhelpful intelligentsia with whom Biswoji and other friends are so furious. First of all, it is natural for Biswo et al or anybody to be furious over these intellectuals for their unhelpfulness at such a sankat ko ghadi for the country. But it is not going to make any difference. If we want to make a difference, we must try to understand their problem and do appropriate things to earn their full co-operation, commitment and resolve. There is no other way unless we resort to become a Mahendra raj.
(Talking about raja Mahendra, didn’t he complain once that intellectuals were not helping him ?)
I saw a lack of patience in Biswoji in understanding these unhelpful intellectuals. Biswoji dismissed them as possible sufferer from Stockholm Syndrome or enamored by Maoists or simply attackers of the weak party, that is the RNA. Of course there are varieties of intellectuals. It will be very helpful exercise to identify who they are and why they are what they are.
Interestingly, a new poster, Sipahi Refusesji, also tried to identify other classes of intellectuals in his frankly written two postings. He classifies them as hidden communists, the rich and the corrupts fearful of blemishes and the foreigners. SRji does not seem to be recognizing the non-communist, non-corrupt domestic intellectuals critical of the flawed democracy particularly republicans like myself.
Anyway, overall this is a grim picture. This shows how deep the sankat of our country is in. There is one more worrisome scenario. When we compare the strength of Maoists and the government, the same rule does not apply to both. Maoists win by not losing the battle but the government can win only by winning it. The strength of the government is those who support the government, the strength of Maoists is those who support the Maoists plus those who do not support the government. So what is the bottom line ? The bottom line is that we can not defeat the Maoists with a government which does not enjoy the massive popular support. Does our government enjoy the massive popular support ? No. So what should we do to make people support the government massively ? This is the prime question of the moment. If we are serious about defeating Maoists, this is where we should ponder.
I will write more about that some other time..
.
.
.
Lastly,
I am glad to see a lot of friends participating and debating on life or death kind of important situation of our country, but I am really surprised to see Biswoji and so many other friends mad at the poster who posted that picture of the army patrol. There is nothing that insults the army in the caption, which reads:
ATHMANDU, NEPAL, 15-SEP-2002: An army soldier warns photographers not to take pictures as he and other security personnel were on patrol along a busy street in Kathmandu, Sept. 15, 2002. At least four bombs went off today in the capital, a day before a nationwide strike called by Maoist rebels, but no one was injured, police said. [Photo by Devendra M. Singh, copyright 2002 by AFP and ClariNet]
Nor I could see the picture itself any objectionable. It is a very common picture you see every now and then in foreign media when they cover the places of conflict. This picture just vividly reminds us about the situation in Nepal. As I matter of fact, this picture stunned me. I did not identify myself with it. It looked very foreign to me. It wasn’t the country I was familiar with. Anyway, I thought this picture is suitable for the gallery of the ‘Bichalit Bartaman’. Did you see the gallery there ? It feels a sort of bizarre, that ‘Bichalit Bartman’ which was also sponsored/organized by Biswoji and Ashuji has similar photos in its gallery, but in Sajha it caused such a hangama !
|
| SITARA |
Posted
on 22-Sep-02 10:13 AM
Nepe ji;
Well, what can I say!
You are among those very few with the ability to 'see', 'think' and express with such finesse and and wisdom a very complex yet "deteriorating" matter. I am sure there are many of us who would not want to be "labeled", "lynched" or "shot" just for taking the time to "contemplate" and express an opinion that is not hard line.
I would like to thank you for that. As usual, you make sense!!!!!
Teaching/working with innercity kids as well as handicapped children, I have reached the point in my life where I see most of the suffering as unnecessary. I abhor "Bush's" foreign policies when the very County I work in is begging for air-condition in the school building!!!!! Yes, in US. we are fighting to have enough school rooms and books!!!!!!!!!! Anyone can be magnanimous and dictate the "right" way but working within the "challenging" system is another matter entirely. I detest that "Bush" is spending X amount of money on waging war while the children of the country are going hungry!!!!! Illiteracy in US is very high! One of those dirty secrets of a great country. As the educators working "within the system", we wish he would look into the innercity culture; spend in parent education, early childhood education, pre/post natal education, cultural awareness programmes, social and community awareness. The ways of the GREAT US is not Perfect!!!!! So...ofcourse, I question, why war????? why violence??? Why not spending the money in rebuilding at a grassroot level. Nepal's socio political climate had reached a certain peak...if not the Maoist then it would be some other faction!!! How many can actually rationalize that if it had not been for Maoism, there would be peace. NOT!!!!! when any form of living hurts then dying will become a better option. Again, am I justifying the actions of the Maoists? NOT!!!!! BUT, how long can the poor go on living in abject conditions without the basic infrastructure needed to uplift them from their "dayaniya" conditions? The BASIC human tendency is to "better" one's condition; that is the very basic survival instinct endowed by nature....Even RAW power will not suppress it!!!! And the sooner our government realizes it, the better for all involved.
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 22-Sep-02 07:33 PM
>I dare to extend it here and argue that a part of the anger of our friends including
>Biswoji were in may be due to the Concession Syndrome. RNA is engaged in the most
>critical task of defending the state and the people. So ignore minor weaknesses and
>flaws.
No, again this argument is not true.
I never said to ignore the minor flaws of RNA. Not. Nepeji, please do a favour, to
avoid misunderstanding, please quote where I said that before jumping to criticize
me.
What I said was this: that people are jumping to criticize RNA because it is easier to
do that.Like that flippancy of the photographer.
>So ignore minor weaknesses and flaws. Suppress everything that may challenge their
>morale It may sound right.
Yet another untrue.
Nepeji, it again saddens me when you hurl 'aarop kaa aarop' without even bothering
to quote where I called for suppression of evidence of weakness and flaws.
I was furious at army or police when Krishna Sen's news came out. I was furious at
army when Kavre massacre of eight(?) people was reported. I have been against
the excesses of police during Kiloshera two. And you fail to appreciate my previous
postings in which I repeatedly cautioned army brass against excesses, because they
would be tried in future for their crime against humanity.
But I am FOR providing RNA with better equipments ,against the position held by
some liberals who would want our RNAs to fight with fist against the mercenaries
with mortars and machine guns.
I am for providing RNA Jawaans with some more respect, and not for parading them
as against democratic norm and opponent of freedom unnecessarily.
I don't want RNA jawaans to first go and 'dhog(stoop at the feet)' all intellectuals at
KTM, get their aashirbaad, their consent and then embark on their war.(figuratively
expressed)
At the moment RNA jawaans were slaughtered like madcows, some people
evinced nauseating schadenfreude at their bad luck . I tried to laugh at those
smirking intellectuals, and that is in no way more than my exercizing my own
democratic right.
Even if you have problem with your neighbor, you don't laugh when he is
suffering from plague, because the plague is a contagious disease,and sooner or
later it would also attack you.
>Let’s talk about the unhelpful intelligentsia with whom Biswoji and other friends are so
>furious. First of all, it is natural for Biswo et al or anybody to be furious over these
>intellectuals for their unhelpfulness at such a sankat ko ghadi for the country. But it is
>not going to make any difference. If we want to make a difference, we must try to
>understand their problem and do appropriate things to earn their full co-operation,
>commitment and resolve.
Nepeji, one thing you are forgetting is: I am not a representative of a ruling party,
so it is not my job to coax those captious intellectuals into agreeing my view. I
am not coddling babies here, I am providing arguments to resist the views I find
obnoxious because they sometimes bother me very much.
Do I get a penny by keeping this corrupt government here? No.
Then why do I support RNA in their war?
Because it is RNA fighting on behalf of us, and unless it is proven otherwise, until now
RNA is fighting to safeguard our democratic institutes.
If some intellectuals want to earn some points by attacking RNA and thus appeasing
what they see as joggernaut rolling towards capital, fine. I have no interest in
appeasing them, or make them respect RNA. It is their view, they are free to
have their view,and I accept this as their fundamental right.
>I saw a lack of patience in Biswoji in understanding these unhelpful intellectuals. Biswoji
>dismissed them as possible sufferer from Stockholm Syndrome or enamored by Maoists
>or simply attackers of the weak party, that is the RNA. Of course there are varieties of
>intellectuals. It will be very helpful exercise to identify who they are and why they are
>what they are.
Well, thank you for pointing out my impatience, Nepeji, but I have been around since
long, and I am tired of intellectuals of all brands from Padma Ratna Tuladhar to ,well,
our very well human right activist fellow poster Milan Karkiji.
Yes, I try to understand them, of course. But there were some professors whom
I respected, and they turned out to be kowtowing to Nepali Congress top brass
for lucrative jobs.
Sloganism has been mainstay of a lot of intellectuals. I was surprised to find the
famous poets penning poems for Nepali Congress ko rukh chinha and praising its
leaders unnecessarily like a bhaat in first general election 2048.(I wonder if someone
else had read that anthology too.)
We changed the system in 2046: but those intellectuals who flourished by 'writing
poems for' the queen, and praising the royals unnecessarily in Panchayat repeated
exactly the same trick to new leaders,and thus hijacked our democratic values.
My fury was aimed at the collective group of those people whose cushy seat,not
necessarily an extensive tour and researches backed up with solid evidences,
in Kathmandu provide them with idea to manufacture illusion in the kingdom about
the state of the kingdom, or who is good and who is bad.
They find Maoists good when it is needed, and they target RNA when they find it
weak. They change the side like the old 'hajurbaa' of Bhim Nidhi Tiwari's play
"Shilanyas" who was spectator at the race for Gorkha Darbaar and at the
end of the day, they gloat that their side finally prevailed.
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