| Sajha.com Archives | |
| Username | Post |
| paramendra | Posted
on 26-Oct-02 03:31 PM
"The only real escape has been to repudiate Hinduism and embrace another faith predicated on human equality." Buddhism's appeal for low-caste Hindus "Despite 50 years of reform, laws banning discrimination and education and economic development, India's 160 million dalits (about 16 % of the population) are dehumanised in a million ways every day." The arguments apply to Nepal as well. I woud be curious to know what the predominantly high-caste Sajha audience thinks on the topic. |
| dhumbasse (dumbass) | Posted
on 26-Oct-02 03:46 PM
Very insteresting , Go for it,. You must have heard of this " GHIU kaha pokhiyo Thalaima" . As long as the dalits are not converted into christianity ,in the name of education, health, and prosperity, I do not think people would have problem with that . Just a question, When they become a buddist, do they also change their names too? How was your Dashain? Tihar aayo.........Kauda hanne hoina ta .... Parmendra and Kauda........I donot know how well that fits.....tara Nimto bhaneko nimtai ho....... |
| niharika | Posted
on 26-Oct-02 03:57 PM
Had taken a course in Hinduism while I was in college. According to my professor, Ambedkar's conversion tactics pretty much failed. Many low-caste Hindus DO NOT wanna convert to Buddhism because it takes away all the advantages they get when they're still Hindu. Hello? Does affirmative action ring a bell??? What good is converting to Buddhism, if they're still gonna be stigmatized socially?? Ambedkar, before he died, wanted to mass convert Dalits to Buddhism. It failed. His students are trying to do the same, but it's not working. And who can forget the simple fact that dalits have caste system withing themselves. They have their own brahmins, who think they're of higher status than other dalits. This high caste Hindu groups treating the dalits unfairly is just a facade, I tell you. Bihari dalits are fighting among themselves, right? Don't forget about reverse discrimination. Tamil Brahmins have been forced out of their homeland b/c of them being perceived as "foreigners". But we don't hear this because everything is the fault of the upper castes, even infighting!!!! |
| DHUMBASSE (DUMBASS) | Posted
on 26-Oct-02 06:21 PM
wah wah wah !! malai sajha yehi bhayera man parcha.unpredictable characters.....Agi samma ta " Swashni mancheko aadhunik langautiko" kura garne manche ta kura ta darlagdo diyo hai yeta ta, som haru!! malai ta dami lagyo ni hau!! khatara cha jasto cha yo Niharika ta !...... La Trikal baje ! yesto kurama hajur kina chuppa ni? |
| SIWALIK | Posted
on 26-Oct-02 06:51 PM
Well, Buddhism is not only for conversion of the dalits. Ambedkar's mass conversion did bring Buddhism back to its homeland after being wiped out in the 13th century. Without the general change in attitude in the society, mere conversion is not going to achieve the goal of equality. What dalits need is service oriented approach of Christianity--more than a single Mother Teresa. Social inequality is the basic cause of social ills. Conversion is also a sign of alienation from the mainstream, like the sniper duo who terrorized with their killing spree recently. Unfortunately, the alienation in our own homeland is feeding the Maoist frenzy. Anyway, the point I wanted to make was that even though Buddhism has the democratic value of equality and all, it is a religion for those who need logical proof rather than leap of faith. That is the charm for the Westerners who really want to think through the nitty gritty of spirituality. As Dalai lama says, it is not for everybody. Definitely not for the faint of hearts. |
| nayabato | Posted
on 26-Oct-02 07:07 PM
hi the suggestion of changing one beliefs is surely not the done thing? i am a follower of buddist idea, however one must also take into account that the teacher was born into the hindu caste system. one should not perceive buddism as a religion but a way of life. this should not mean that one should go and live under a pipal tree. however no matter what one adheres to in life,the middle path should be sought. without any reconcilation or realisation of the situation,one tends to divert from the truth.in this instance, the followers of hinduism needs to step back and ask the question, what have we done to our motherland. for it is a fact that they have held the reins for so long and yet the only way we are heading is backwards. what a mess? caste what is that? not only the hindus but all people who consider themselves NEPALI should be face themselves in the mirror and ask that question. |
| ChuchiDidi | Posted
on 26-Oct-02 10:59 PM
hehe guys i think bhudihism was founded in India :) For a person who is from hindu religion who onverts to bhudism is not a big deal. bhudhist have somesame god who hindu worship/vice versa. It is just a way of people feeling comfortable and thinking that they fit in one and not fit in another............. caste system exists all around over the world knowingly or unknowingly, even in developed countries :( Niharika, no one can say that one religion is better than other as i said earlier depend all upon u what u feel deep down inside you don't you think?? Every religion have the ways to tell how it is great to be religious person and this and that. But seriously how can we be "dharmi " when we live in such a cruel world? ?? Noone can make people change the way they think but we can atleast try hoina ra siwalik?? That's what i think i don't know wot u guys think. Sincerly, Chuchi |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 09:42 AM
"...As long as the dalits are not converted into ..." I disagree. They can become whatever they want. I am suspicious of that feeling of insecurity when some Dalit might become a Mulsim or a Christian. Freedom of religion. Basic human right. "Does affirmative action ring a bell?" Affirmative action is one way to counter casteism. Conversion is another. I just hope there are many more options. "What good is converting to Buddhism, if they're still gonna be stigmatized socially?" Please read the final paragraphs of the BBC article. That issue has been addressed. The purpose of conversion, he says, is not to change the attitudes of the higher castes but to change the 'false consciousness' of dalits. "Many of us have consented to being degraded because we think that in some way it is pre-ordained. We lack confidence, we suffer from an inferiority complex and or experiences have given us a sense of worthlessness. "It is our mental liberation that conversion is aimed at. If we gain confidence, then the higher castes will, eventually, be compelled to change too," Mr Raj says. "...that dalits have caste system withing themselves..." Sub-castes. Well, that too is part of the caste system. Among Muslims, they have been Shunnis and Shiasa. In Ireland, the Protestants and Catholics. The Hindu-Buddhist rift is Sri Lanka. The sub-castes among the high castes. Classism in Britain. Sexism in America. Why should we be surprised the Dalits among themselves are not purely egalitarian, if the rest of us are not either? "...Bihari dalits are fighting among themselves, right? ..." That is no argument for casteism. The Democrats and Republicans in America fight as well. "...Don't forget about reverse discrimination...." This is comparing an ant with the elephant. Casteism is the elephant, isolated cases of the reverse an ant. "Without the general change in attitude in the society, mere conversion is not going to achieve the goal of equality." Key point. Confront casteism head-on. "Conversion is also a sign of alienation from the mainstream..." Not entirely. It is primarily a positive act of choosing one's faith, exercising one's fundamental right ....... After all, India is Buddha's land of enlightenment. How is an Indian becoming a Buddhist alienation! "...a religion for those who need logical proof rather than leap of faith. .." :-) |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 09:47 AM
"....one should not perceive buddism as a religion but a way of life..." Wrong. And Jesus was born a Jew. So? Buddhism is a religion. It is not a sub-religion within Hindusim, like Shaivism, etc. "...bhudhist have somesame god who hindu worship/vice versa..." Buddhists don't worship Hindu gods. "...Noone can make people change the way they think ..." What a thing to say! Defeatist. Do you say any chance the casteism can be brought to an end? A political, legal and social end? |
| niharika | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 11:00 AM
"Affirmative action is one way to counter casteism. Conversion is another. I just hope there are many more options " Well, if the father converts to Buddhism, is there any guarantee that the son will also be a Buddhist. Not so. Why don't you tell me one thing. Why are their Christian brahmins and Muslim Rajputs? Is it because caste system is a social problem, and not religious???? How come the Gujjar girl was gangraped in Pakistan because she was in love with a highclass Muslim??? So, can you really say conversion is a way to counter racism?? I don't think so. You need to tackle it as a social problem, not religious. Affirmative action is basically racism. Suppose you have a very highly skilled dalit, and a not so skilled Brahmin, and the employer chooses the Brahmin guy. This is casteism right?? Similarly, if you have a very highly skilled Brahmin and a not so skilled dalit, and the embloyer chooses the dalit, then this is Affirmative Action. There is no difference between the two examples, you see. "Please read the final paragraphs of the BBC article. That issue has been addressed" As I said before, there is no guarantee that the progeny of the convert will remain a Buddhist. And you seem to ignore casteism among the converted people. |
| dirk | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 11:21 AM
Even in Pakistan you can still find people having their ethnic Sindhi/Punjabi surnames like Cheema, Gill, Rao, Mirchandani, Choudhary, Raut and even Rana....after couple of generation of conversion. Casteism is deeply ingrained in the psyche of the people of the subcontinent, and seems like cannot be eradicated by mere conversion alone. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 11:36 AM
Well, then, dirk, how do you suppose that deep-seated casteism can be countered? |
| Biruwa | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 11:53 AM
The fact that Hinduism (Sanatan Dharma) has casteism is an associative fact. For example if you are flying in a plane and you experience turbulence then people might think that the fact that you are flying in a plane caused the turbulence!! Thus they assume that because they happen to be flying in a plane, so experienced turbulence. Thus they think it is the causal effect of them flying in a plane that caused them to experience the turbulence. Such thinkers may decide never to fly in a plane again. This is what the people who are leaving the Hinduism fold are thinking. Hinduism and casteism are associative facts can be proven because casteism can be found in other forms and all kind of forms all around the world including USA. |
| ? | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 02:01 PM
How can a religion be the solution? Lets be real here folks, Why Buddhism? Whim or real spiritual longing? Religion isn't a commodity that you buy off shelves. You can buy dogmas but the spiritual essence, not really. The best option for these ostracized soul has to be no religion to follow. When you claim not to be part of something, no one will bother you, hopefully. |
| nayabato | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 03:04 PM
well from what i have read about jesus is that he was born to a human just like the person know as buddha. it was not surely them who invented the rules and regulations that the layman adheres to as "religion"? and yes to change someone elses preception is a converter, when all that should be taking place is an opion being voiced. and in relation to bringing castism, political and legal system to an end, this can be easily achieved. just take the persons concerned, line them up against the wall and spry some goods out an capitalist product and sing "rato ra chandra surya..." |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 03:13 PM
"Well, if the father converts to Buddhism, is there any guarantee that the son will also be a Buddhist. Not so.: There should not BE such a guarantee. Each to his or her own. It is just that, for most of us, Hindu or Christian or Muslim or Buddhist, the religion of the family born into becomes our own. "Why are their Christian brahmins and Muslim Rajputs?" Important point. Shows how deep-seated casteism is on the sub-continent. Please elaborate though. "How come the Gujjar girl was gangraped in Pakistan because she was in love with a highclass Muslim?" I remember reading about that news item, and I hope we are referring to the same one. Sad. But all too prevalent. People not even marrying outside their subcastes. Inter-racial marriages were illegal in the U.S. what, 40 years ago? Even in a place like Kathmandu. Major social barriers to "entry!" But please elaborate. "You need to tackle it as a social problem, not religious." It is not solely a religious problem, and perhaps primarily a social problem. Even in that case, how do you propose we go about it? "...if you have a very highly skilled Brahmin and a not so skilled dalit, and the embloyer chooses the dalit..." You misunderstand affirmative action. If there are two equally qualified candidates, affirmative action allows for the hiring of the person from a scheduled caste. I am for it. It is an important vehicle to address historic social wrongs, sometimes thousands of years in the making. And it affects positively only the select few from those groups. What do you think society ought to do for the larger masses? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 03:19 PM
"Even in Pakistan you can still find people having their ethnic Sindhi/Punjabi surnames like Cheema, Gill, Rao, Mirchandani, Choudhary, Raut and even Rana....after couple of generation of conversion. Casteism is deeply ingrained in the psyche of the people of the subcontinent, and seems like cannot be eradicated by mere conversion alone."
Elias Canetti's Crowds and Power ... The Nobel laureate briefly talks about the caste system, but suggests someone do a separate study of the same! The material sure is vast, and it is not exactly like social inequalities elsewhere. ...a study of mob psychology by an author whose lifelong interest in the subject extended from a childhood battering in the crush of a mob in World War I Vienna... |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 03:25 PM
"Such thinkers may decide never to fly in a plane again." I take it that you mean casteism will exist foreverafter. Is that what you mean? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 03:28 PM
"The best option for these ostracized soul has to be no religion to follow. When you claim not to be part of something, no one will bother you, hopefully." This is like Biruwa's statement: get off the plane, stop complaining otherwise. Already, as is, they have been prevented from getting on the plane. In the first place! "...and in relation to bringing castism, political and legal system to an end, this can be easily achieved. just take the persons concerned, line them up against the wall and spry some goods out an capitalist product and sing "rato ra chandra surya..." .." I guess the caste system is stubbornly cynical! |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 03:45 PM
Jhajjar victim's kin denounce Hinduism AKSHAYA MUKUL TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ MONDAY, OCTOBER 28, 2002 12:20:07 AM ] http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?artid=26500528 GURGAON: Nearly 80 Dalits, including family members and relatives of the five Dalits lynched by villagers in Jhajjar on October 15, converted to Buddhism, Islam and Christianity from a single stage in a bylane next to to the Ravi Das mandir here on Sunday. On October 15, the five Dalits were taking hides and a dead cow in a mini-truck from Farruknagar in Gurgaon district to Karnal when they stopped outside the Dulena police station and decided to skin the cow as they could not stand its smell. Thinking that the Dalits were skinning the cow alive, the villagers lynched them. At Sunday's ceremony, Shankar Lal Khairalia, a Valmiki by caste, caused a flutter when he announced he would embrace Islam. By chosing to call himself Saddam Hussain, Khairalia scored a bigger symbolic point. "I know how the western world is after Saddam. He is a hero," is all Khairalia could say seconds before he read the kalma along with Mohammad Rafiq Azad and got converted. Nearly 20 others followed Khairalia to Islam. "I am in my senses. I challenge the VHP, Bajrang Dal and RSS to reconvert me. I will give up my life but never be a Hindu again," he said angrily. Silence prevailed as people from the nearby Hanuman temple watched the Dalits denounce and desert Hinduism. The relatives of the Jhajjar victims were the first to be converted to Buddhism by priest Bhante Sheel Ratan. Udit Raj of the All-India SC/ST Confederation conferred 22 vows that Ambedkar had administered on October 14, 1956, to half a million Dalits. Watching the conversion was filmmaker Mahesh Bhatt, who had come to express outrage over the Jhajjar incident. As photographs of the bodies of Virender Singh and Dayachand — lynched on October 15 — made the rounds, the Dalits raised their pitch in anger. "We do not want to be a part of religion where there is a premium for dead cow," said Chhatar Singh, nephew of Dayachand and cousin of Virender. Udit Raj made a pointed attack on VHP leader Giriraj Kishore who reportedly said he had no regrets over the Dalits' killing. "The system which has the cow and Giriraj Kishore is not worth it. We denounce it," he said. He even criticised what he termed as double standards of the Hindus when it comes to cows. "The cow is referred to as the mother by caste Hindus; then why do they leave their mother on the street after it stops giving milk? Why do they sell their mother to the Dalits?" he asked. Bhatt was, however, sceptical if the conversion would solve the problem. "This would not bring about any real change. The Dalits need to fight to become part of the mainstream," he said. There was a minor scuffle when a Valmiki resented some comments by upper caste Hindus from nearby shops. But the situation was soon brought under control. Dissent came from within too. A section of Valmiki youth openly termed the conversions a "sham". "This is a disgrace to every Valmiki. How will conversions change our daily existence? Can we stop doing business with caste Hindus? Will Muslims give their daughter to Khairalia in marriage?" asked Vijay Kumar. Fellow dissenter Kishore Kumar had a more extreme solution to end the oppression by the upper castes: "Kill 50 for five and everything will be alright." But it is difficult to tell if Sunday's conversion here could become a mini-Meenakshipuram or not. Yet, the event spurred by the Jhajjar lynching was the most potent symbol of protest that the subalterns registered 21 years after the 181 Dalit families converted to Islam in Tamil Nadu's Meenakshipuram. |
| SIWALIK | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 04:29 PM
Let us not forget the presence of Buddhist democratic republics competing with Hindu kingdoms when Buddhism was at its height in the Indian subcontinent. Such egalitarian states were not to the liking of Hindu scholars such as Kautilya, who supported monarchical regime and Manu, who rigidified the inequality inherent in the cast system. A Buddhist republic, based on Mahayana, would be an egalitarian domocratic society. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 04:55 PM
"...the presence of Buddhist democratic republics ..." Please elaborate. Please educate. |
| SIWALIK | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 05:14 PM
Suggest you to read history of rise and fall of Buddhism in India--Ashoka to the destruction of Buddhist university in Nalanda, Bihar. Let me remind you that the world's first public university was a Buddhist university. Brief intro from a website. The ruins of Nalanda university is spread over an area of 14 hectares. This university was totally built in Red clay bricks. The Nalanda university attracted scholars from all over the world. Even Chanakya or Kautilya was once a student of this university. This university was seat of knowledge for the world, the light of knowledge spread all over the world from Nalanda. Today only the memories of those glorious days are refreshed in the ruins. Whatever remains of the great university has been well preserved. Among the ruins one still recognizes the different sections of the place. Particularly the place of worship and the hostels are very distinct. The whole area is surrounded by beautiful lawns. ... Here is a link to possible readings: http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/muhlberger/histdem/ancient.htm But this article will give you some basic idea on democratic history in India. http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/muhlberger/histdem/indiadem.htm |
| niharika | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 06:26 PM
"There should not BE such a guarantee. Each to his or her own. It is just that, for most of us, Hindu or Christian or Muslim or Buddhist, the religion of the family born into becomes our own. " Your point would have been valid, had the case been that they converted for religious reasons. But since that's not the case, the children of the convert will not really be very much exposed to the tenets of Buddhism. So, the children might revert back as well. And won't the parents talk about the reason they converted to Buddhism with their children? Of course they will, and they'll always know their "place" in society. By the way, I know a Bengali Muslim who knows he is of "Khattri" origin. These things pass on for centuries. Plus, Buddhism is a very liberal religion, and not as dogmatic as, say, Christianity or Islam. Mind you though, I have no problem with other religions. Also, it really won't make a difference if only small patches are converting. It's just that Hindu "fundamentalists" (I'm using the term loosely, as one cannot be a fundamentalist in a religion that doesn't have fundamentals) blow it all out of proportion. "Important point. Shows how deep-seated casteism is on the sub-continent. Please elaborate though." I don't think I have to elaborate because I already gave an example of a Gujjar girl in Pakistan gang-raped for falling in love with a high class muslim. Benezir Bhutta proudly claims she is of Rajput origin. You have Muslim Jats in Pakistani Punjab who marry within their own group. What's surprising is that Pakistani muslims even have gotras!! Anyway, here is the story of the Gujjar girl: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2104063.stm "It is not solely a religious problem, and perhaps primarily a social problem. Even in that case, how do you propose we go about it? " There is nothing we can do about it besides fighting poverty. Japan had their own "low caste" population called the Ainus. I don't know the details, but there aren't many Ainus remaining anymore, perhaps because like many Gypsies, they prefer to hide their cultural backgrounds. Education and economy are the keys. "If there are two equally qualified candidates, affirmative action allows for the hiring of the person from a scheduled caste. I am for it. It is an important vehicle to address historic social wrongs, sometimes thousands of years in the making. And it affects positively only the select few from those groups. What do you think society ought to do for the larger masses? " There is no such thing as equality, for it is a human construct; you'll always have a margin of error. And who really judges equality? The human mind??? And is the human mind perfect? Look, the upper castes are actually "minorities" because they don't make up the bulk of the population. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 07:47 PM
Niharika. Your observations are informed. You have attempted detailed descriptions of the reality on the ground. But I wish you poured half as much energy to suggest a constructive path towards the future. "There is nothing we can do about it besides fighting poverty." I strongly disagree. Poverty alleviation will help, spreading education will help, but casteism has to be confronted in its own right. If not, the same people benefitting from casteism will be the chief recipients of the benefits. The mentality behind casteism, the social norms, attitudes, rules have to be described and understood, and then changed. But the dialogue has to begin by your asserting you do believe all human beings are created equal. Otherwise we might not even have a starting point. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 07:53 PM
Siwalik. Thanks for the links. I am also part of a discussion at MonitorTalk: Who Elected The UN?. And it helps to be able to say democracy can claim to have its roots in more than one part of the world. http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/muhlberger/histdem/ancient.htm http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/muhlberger/histdem/indiadem.htm "...the ancient evidence for Indian democracy, and in its relevance to how we understand the world history of democracy..." "Historians who are interested in democracy often insist it must be understood in context of a unique western tradition of political development beginning with the Greeks. The spread of democratic ideals and practice to other cultures, or their failure to spread, have many times been explained on the assumption that democracy or personal liberty are ideals foreign to the non-Western world -- an assumption at least as old as Herodotus.1 But events since the late 1980s have shown that people both in "Western" and "non-Western" countries have a lively interest in democracy as something relevant to their own situation. The old assumption deserves to be re-examined." |
| RaiderNation | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 10:25 PM
Paramender, You got to take your religion peddling stuff elsewhere. You sought and found Buddhism to appeal to your intellect, that’s fine. You rock!!! Now leave us Hindus alone. Religion in Hinduism is a private affair. That’s one reason why you see most of our temples are not equipped to have people giving a sermon. We do our individual stuff and move on. Our schools don’t teach us about our religion or does it teaches us to hate any other religions. Buddhists compose about 6-8% of Nepal’s population, has it ever occurred to you that it is the tolerance of the Hindus that it still survives. Not only that, Syambhunath in Nepal is as important as Pashupatinath, yes sir, that is our culture and our religion at work for you. It would be extremely difficult for that a minority to survive elsewhere, don’t you agree?? You talk a lot about the evils of Hinduism and not mention even some little positive aspect. How can that be?? Are we that bad? I had the notion that it is our tolerance that you and some others get to vent all your anti-Hindu venom at a Hindu majority site? You focus too much on the social aspect of South Asia and jump to have it laden on Hinduism. Sure we have some problems but we are the first ones to admit that. We are not fanatics that believe in fallacy. We accept our shortcomings and yes; we’re among the first ones to criticize them; and that comes from everybody, Hindus included. But that does not mean that you have license to vent your personal shortcomings into our religion. You’re right that we do have social problem with caste but what makes you think that it’s a religious problem as apposed to a social problem. In India, you got your own share of dalit Muslims, Christians and Buddhists. If the dalits did covert to uplift themselves socially, how come they’re still dalits?? What happened to the saving graces of your religions?? Is Hinduism to be blamed for that too?? You cannot attack Hinduism for the caste problem and say people should convert if the converting religions have not been able to strengthen them. Then again, you blame that on the deeply rooted South Asian psyche, Hindu psyche I believe. How can that be a possibility? You leave the folds of Hinduism then your still being a dalit is your preferred religion’s problem. Most of the converts are rabidly anti-Hindu anyway. So how can you still say we influence the convert’s way of life? Did it ever occur to you that conversion has nothing to do with empathy and everything to do with extremist indoctrinations? When the Syrians Christians were persecuted, they landed in the Indian state of Kerala and were able to leave not only a normal but also a respectable life, courtesy Hindu philosophy, thank you very much. So were the Parsis and the Muslims. Of the homegrown variety religions, ie, Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism, survived because of our all-encompassing philosophy. Do you have any doubts that you’d have otherwise survived, say if India/ Nepal were a monotheistic culture as Islam or Christianity? Yes sir, give credit where it’s due. Sure you are entitled to your opinions but keep in mind that you might not always be right. Oh yeah, all the talk about BR Ambedkar was nice but wonder upon wonder; a Hindu- majority country honors him, doesn’t it?? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Oct-02 11:32 PM
"...religion peddling stuff ..." This thread is no religion peddling. This is a discussion on caste dynamics. (1) Do you disagree with casteism? (2) If yes, how do you suggest it can be countered? "Religion in Hinduism is a private affair." Yes and No. And the Christians talk about their personal relationship with Jesus. You have to look at the words and actions of all those who call themselves Hindus. Not all is private. I mean, there is nothing private about the caste system. Go to the temples in Janakpur for Hindu "sermons!" A dime a dozen in a town of temples. "Our schools don’t teach us about our religion or does it teaches us to hate any other religions." Not true. The education system is very Hindu. Stories from Hindu ancient books are everywhere. And you can not discount the Hindu-Muslim discord on the sub-continent, often times violent in a massive way. "...it is the tolerance of the Hindus that it still survives...." That is a patronizing thing to say. So Buddhism survives because the Hindus allow survival? I appreciate your trying to tap the vein of religious tolerance. But Nepal's intolerance starts in the constitution. It calls itself a Hindu nation. "You talk a lot about the evils of Hinduism and not mention even some little positive aspect." As a Hindu, will you please inform me? And I do not mean this as a trick question. I am open to turning this thread on casteism into a mini inter-faith dialogue. "You focus too much on the social aspect of South Asia and jump to have it laden on Hinduism." Are you claiming the caste system is independent of the Hindu religion? The caste system exists. It is both religious and social. "If the dalits did covert to uplift themselves socially, how come they’re still dalits?" Do you think it is because the high caste folks refuse to socially recognize the conversions? Or that, to them, if you are a Muslim or a Christian, you go one step down, become part of some fifth caste! "You cannot attack Hinduism for the caste problem and say people should convert if the converting religions have not been able to strengthen them." This is an interesting point you raise. Reform Hinduism, as a possible way to counter the caste system. Possibly a Hindu way of life in future that has a caste structure no more. Will you please elaborate? "Did it ever occur to you that conversion has nothing to do with empathy and everything to do with extremist indoctrinations?" This is an expression of prejudice against those who convert. As if they don't have minds of their own. If they did, they would stay on with their station in the Hindu hierarchy! "When the Syrians Christians were persecuted, they landed in the Indian state of Kerala ..." And the Dalai Lama is in India. "Of the homegrown variety religions, ie, Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism, survived because of our all-encompassing philosophy." Buddhism is not a subset of Hinduism. |
| dirk | Posted
on 28-Oct-02 06:55 AM
Paramender, Naya Musalmaan bahut pyaaz khata hai, ke na? |
| nayabato | Posted
on 28-Oct-02 07:40 AM
it should not matter what caste or religion or whoever you are? the fact that we are human, living in this blue planet is all that matters. as they say we will die one but how we get ther is out of our own choices or karma ma laykhay ko as the saying goes. it is a fact that caste is associted with religion, and it is also a fact that Nepal is the only hindu country to my knowledge.. hence we can only derive the cause of separation is hinduism.. it may be seem that i am digging deep but surely no matter what you think.. if you see another as lower than yourself than that is wrong. this preception must be relised by individuals before one can progress into the next relm. however religion as a whole follows the same the same concepts, hence all religion should be extracted from daily running of a country, for this is only a another business. the cocktail of business and pleasure mixing is a bad one and this is demenstrated currently throughout the world. and yes if people are allowed to follow whatever they like with their domain but once in the bigger circle, there needs to be laws to protect all. so inorder to solve the caste siutation, we need to look at the current legal constitute. as this was most likely written by hindu followers and not by Nepalis as such. and yes there are other religion followers in my country... so it had never caused a problem.. and i hope it never will for it is one of the gifts offered. the problems lies in the management system and until this can be changed... we will talk about it forever... |
| kkm | Posted
on 28-Oct-02 09:02 AM
“paramendra”, “SIWALIK”, “niharika” the three of you impress me. You are well read and make your point very well. Regarding the subject & the article in BBC; do you think socio-economics is the reason? Do you think if the (I hate to use the term) Dalits had an opportunity to progress economically and their median income was that of rest of the Indian middle-class we would be having this discussion? I believe the same reason applies to Nepal and the Maoist movement. I'm interested in finding out what all of you think. |
| SIWALIK | Posted
on 28-Oct-02 02:26 PM
The rape of the Gujjar girl can not be simply associated with socioeconomic condition. It has cultural undretone. We know most religions gives surordinate roles to women--Islam fundamentalist leading the way and Hinduism not far behind. Religious values can produce social values such as machismo, hierarchy of individuals and groups, patriarchal vs. matriarchal societies, etc.. In this case, the religious values and socioeconomic norms and hierarchy connected to produce the terrible result. If the cultural norms and values produced and inforced equality of humans regardless of birth or gender, then we would not be discussing this topic, most likely. The fact remains that social conflicts are the result of multitude of ineqalities inherent and reproduced through social and political processes. So in order to find a solution to resolve conflicts, people always have to address the root cause. Voilent conflcits are result of gross inequlity that robs people of human dignity, social mobility and group identity, etc... |
| Hamjayega | Posted
on 29-Oct-02 04:00 AM
Wow! You guys sure impress me with your profound knowledge..historical info ..n logical conclusions. Talking about religion & Caste based society, may I say, that mother of all religion is "HUMANITY" the willingness to respect another human being/beings of whatever ..religion..caste..creed or economic status. How many of us can claim to hv followed such a religion. Over to you guys! |
| kgurung | Posted
on 29-Oct-02 02:47 PM
Dear friends: I personally know lower caste Nepali, who converted to Christianity. They are happy and doing well. I think it is a good thing for them because they are happy, isn't that what matters at the end of the day? I do no think the wise men invented the caste system to cause division among the hindus. I am sure it had its practical reasons, but it had its unintended consequences. It will do no good to blame the entire religion for the caste system. We just have to invest in education of our children in every remote village in Nepal. We need to seriously start addressing the problems at an early age; start raising awareness in the classrooms, on television, on the radio and everywhere. Our problem in Nepal is different from other places. For instance, US has its problem between the blacks and whites, but most Nepalis are mixed if you just look at your friends closely. Hopefully someday we will have a secular state with the separation of church and state. KG |
| SIWALIK | Posted
on 29-Oct-02 03:04 PM
Yes, caste system did not have the rigidity until Manu. Earlier casteism was more of a functional distinction and specialization for orderly functioning of Hindu society. That was during the Vedic times. Buddhism and Jainism were responses to social rigidity of Hindu caste system. Any social custom that promotes institutionlizing ideas such as inherent inequality among humans has to be challenged and sent for "baikuntha baas". |
| KKM | Posted
on 29-Oct-02 03:27 PM
"Goji ma paisa ra gidi ma buddhi huneharulai cast le asar pardaina." Having said that, not all of us have both of these so like kgurung and SIWALIK poit out, I will continue educating myself and my children and challenge society every chance I get. I hope you will too. |
| nayabato | Posted
on 29-Oct-02 04:06 PM
kkm i agree with, but i have no children to teach yet..need to complete my studies first. but also why do away with the problems that is now effecting the daily lives of nepaliis? do we not need to address it? as siwalik points out, rules are there to be broken in this case challenged otherwise we will ourselves will not learn the way forward first nevermind our children. baikuntha baas? maybe teaching the people of the wrong they are causing due to their small mindness may be a better solution? as for kqurung.. why does one have to change when surely it the society that needs to identify the problem and address it? surely as social animals, this should come to us naturally... |
| paramendra | Posted
on 29-Oct-02 07:27 PM
"Naya Musalmaan bahut pyaaz khata hai........" What's this supposed to mean? "...we need to look at the current legal constitute..." Change of heart is important, but one has to look at more concrete proposals like the "current legal constitute........." "...if the (I hate to use the term) Dalits had an opportunity to progress economically .." Casteism prevents them from doing so. "...social conflicts are the result of multitude of ineqalities inherent and reproduced through social and political processes..." True. One has look at the anatomy of those social and political processes. Understand the rules so you can change them. "I personally know lower caste Nepali, who converted to Christianity. They are happy and doing well." Please elaborate. It would be nice to know of some specific examples. "We just have to invest in education ..." Education is key, but I believe, not enough. Casteism has to be confronted in its own right, head on. "Hopefully someday we will have a secular state with the separation of church and state." This is an important front in the struggle against casteism, as well for religious diversity. It amazes me how many Sajhaites defend the status quo on this one. "Any social custom that promotes institutionlizing ideas such as inherent inequality among humans has to be challenged and sent for "baikuntha baas"." True. Very true. "..."Goji ma paisa ra gidi ma buddhi huneharulai cast le asar pardaina." ..." Not entirely true. "..... why does one have to change when surely it the society that needs to identify the problem and address it? .." What exactly is your point? I am not sure I get it. |
| kgurung | Posted
on 30-Oct-02 02:00 PM
Parmandra ji: As for the people I know that are from lower cast, I don't feel comfortable getting too specific, for I get bhai tika from the person. I never knew of her caste nor do I care, only through gossip while visiting other Nepalis did I find out about her caste. She came to the US through her church connection in Nepal and was going to school with us. Now she is happily married. That's the best I can do. gotta run to class... kg |
| chandrama | Posted
on 31-Oct-02 07:05 AM
I think the point made about inequality being a universal problem is an important one. It is true that everywhere society is a collection of social groups which differentiate themselves from other groups; whether on the grounds of economic, religious, racist, cultural or nationalistic identities. People define themselves against what they're not-this is what makes them feel that they belong to their community. I think it is a natural propensity of human beings. The positive outcome is the strength of families and communities in places like Nepal. However the problem with caste is interesting because it is a very old system which is up against a rapidly changing world. Yes people make judgements on the basis of caste and this effects everyone from Brahmins to Dalits but increasingly caste is working alongside other dividing principles that come from capitalist society. Some of the religious aspects of caste are becoming less important than race and economic status. Race and economic status are contested all over the globalised world. I've got to go to a class! so I'll have to finish my point later... |
| dirk | Posted
on 31-Oct-02 07:48 AM
Parmindar, It means a newly converted Musalmaan in the old days, when lot of Hindus didn't eat pyaaz, eats a whole lot of it just to prove that he's now a true musalmaan, comprehende? Tum bhi toh naya something, I don't know what, lagte ho. Always trying to discredit Hinduism in every which way seems to be your thing now. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 31-Oct-02 09:15 AM
Kgurung: I respect your sentiment of privacy for the individual concerned. Chandrama: "..think the point made about inequality being a universal problem is an important one...People define themselves against what they're not-this is what makes them feel that they belong to their community. ...The positive outcome is the strength of families and communities .........Race and economic status are contested all over the globalised world. ........" That is such a negative definition of family and community. People should bond for positive reasons, not so as to exclude others. Dirk: You need to get my name right. So a religion is based upon whether or not one eats onions!? |
| chandrama | Posted
on 31-Oct-02 09:30 AM
Following on from what I was saying before... Also caste is, I think, an unusual case because it has always been religious, economic, race-related, cultural and political. Perhaps this is why it is such a strong and long-lasting thing-because it encompasses every aspect of life and it is very deeply set in the mind and way of living. To refer directly to the subject of this kura, I think that conversion would probably not help at a fundamental level. The idea of caste is too deep rooted and too fundamental to the organisation of Nepali society. And my former point was that because of this even if many were to convert the fact that caste is not only a religious principle means that the economic, cultural and daily life aspects of it might not be able to be removed from people's minds by conversion. In theory a Brahmin might say that he has left caste behind but in practice would he be happy for his sister to marry a Dalit? |
| kgurung | Posted
on 31-Oct-02 11:19 AM
friends: i had this revelation once while confronting with the idea that one of my close friend was of low caste. i know it shouldn't matter, but at a more sub conscious level it was bothering me. Then i thought of all the time i criticized older white Americans for being so prejudiced and discriminatory against black Americans. Suddenly it hit me, i was such a hypocrit! As Chandrama has suggested, old habits are hard to break be it in the United States or Nepal. Think about it, the US is a new country, few hundred years old. The caste system has been around in our area among hindus for at least a century. We should definitely train ourselves and the younger generation to be more open minded, but it will probably require some tike, realistically speaking. kg |
| paramendra | Posted
on 31-Oct-02 08:43 PM
"....because it encompasses every aspect of life and it is very deeply set in the mind and way of living...." It is perhaps the most obvious social structure on the sub-continent, the elephant in the room. "...conversion would probably not help..." It is only one of many options. What other options would you like to suggest? "...practice would he be happy for his sister to marry a Dalit? ..." I am glad someone is finally talking about marriages. Yeah, what about them? What is that immense social glue that people marry within their castes and sub-castes for the most part? "...i had this revelation once while confronting with the idea that one of my close friend was of low caste. ..." I hope more people confess in such a manner. Admit their prejudices. |
| batauli | Posted
on 01-Nov-02 01:29 AM
Paramendra, I can't believe you just said this: "I hope more people confess in such a manner. Admit their prejudices.". Walmart has the Sauder Mirror, Cottage Home Collection for under a 100 dollars.. pic at http://i.walmart.com/i/p/00/04/26/66/28/0004266628910_215X215.jpg batauli ko kinar bata |
| SIWALIK | Posted
on 01-Nov-02 10:09 AM
chandrama: You are talking apples and oranges. You state: It is true that everywhere society is a collection of social groups which differentiate themselves from other groups; whether on the grounds of economic, religious, racist, cultural or nationalistic identities. People define themselves against what they're not-this is what makes them feel that they belong to their community. But do you realize that forming an identity has nothing to do with inequality? Inequality has more to do with cultural norms. Cultural subjectivity ingrains values and attitutes in ever individual. Cultural intersubjectivity, in turn, develops a system of meaning, identity, and a method to relate to the world. If the value system were based on equality, there is no way we can not treat each other as equal. True, we might be blessed with different kinds of aptitudes when we are born, but that does not mean we should not have the same opportunity under the law. Face it, Caste system is heavily stacked up against more than half the Hindu population. The best way to deal with caste system is to find a greater vision of national upliftment. If we can unite the nation ideologically to move toward a better future, we need an ideological glue that will make caste system irrelevant. Find a higher cuase is what I say. caste is not an insurmountable barrier. For instance, let's suppose there is a Brahmin laying on the road hurt and unable to move. Should a shudra come along the way, would the Brahmin decline his help or ask him his caste before he accepts help? What I mean is there are extenuating circumstances that will mute the caste system. If there were to emerge a leader who can move the nation with his vision and dedication to uplift the nation, things can change in a hurry. Nepal can rise within a generation to take a better position in the world. We need such natinal vision. Well, I am idealistic. That is not a good thing to be in these days, they say. And let me say this: I have a lot of friends from so called lower castes. They have always been equal to me and been dear to me in my hearts. Don't say that if I can have such an attitude, others can not. You can too. We all can. |
| kkm | Posted
on 01-Nov-02 11:16 AM
Unlike you SIWALIK, I do not have single friend from the lower cast. That is because I refuse to see another person as being from a lower or higher cast. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 01-Nov-02 11:47 AM
Batauli: Yes. Why not? The caste system perhaps does not operate in a vacuum. Or are you claiming everyone who visits this site is an exception? kkm: That is a clever thing to say, but does not touch base with reality. Or have you managed to create a casteless microcosm? Do you and your "friends" and their families inter-marry beyond the caste lines? Siwalik: "Caste system is heavily stacked up against more than half the Hindu population." True. You can bond with whoever in your private life. But it does not stop there. People from "lower" castes are excluded for their group identity. Change of heart is great, and a social transformation is necessary, but one can not wait for that. Casteism, in as it discriminates, had to be fought politically and legally. |
| dirk | Posted
on 01-Nov-02 12:46 PM
Param-Indra, Why do you always try to twist and turn other's words? KKM might be telling the truth....he sees everybody as equal or same. There are people who are not forever obsessed with race and creed like you. Good to know that you are thoroughly enjoying living in this "melting pot" of a nation. I also am glad to know that you and Lara are getting along fine and dandy...more power to you! Folks back in Janakpur must be real proud of you and so must be the 30 million plus Maithali speakers in Nepal, India and probably Pakistan ( some of the mohajirs). " Chauddi Patarki re......" |
| paramendra | Posted
on 01-Nov-02 01:41 PM
"Folks back in Janakpur ..." I am not that well known .......... "There are people who are not forever obsessed with race and creed like you.." I feel a little misunderstood. People forging friendships across the historic caste lines are perhaps our best hope against casteism. That is what I feel. But just because you might have a few such friends does not mean casteism is over, or that you have done your share against it. Have you really shed your casteist attitudes? That is key. |
| KKM | Posted
on 01-Nov-02 05:08 PM
What paramendra's from Janakpur? Me too bud! That makes both of us madhisea. But unlike you paramendra I don't seem to have that identity crysis neither do I think I'm misunderstood. Oh! yes back to the topic: dirk thanks for your comments. Yes paramendra, I have managed to create a caste less microcosm. The world looks much better from in here, trust me! Regarding getting married to someone from a "different cast": I would like to think I'd have no problems with it. I can't say for sure because I'm been married to the my wife for such a long time that, from this vantage point, I can't imagine life without her. Let me know if you want me to clarify any of the things I mentioned above. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 02-Nov-02 09:40 AM
KKM: Where in Janakpur are you from? Bhanu Chowk? Kadamb Chowk? Murali Chowk? Janak Chowk? Station Road? Mills Area? :-) Are you a Nepali Speaker or a Maithili Speaker? I am not suggesting people should divorce their wives of the same caste and try inter-caste marriages! An intimate relationship is a personal choice between two people, and no political statement. And, in your case, it is a little too late to experiment around! :-) |
| chandrama | Posted
on 02-Nov-02 12:54 PM
SIWALIK...I like the way you explained caste in response to what I wrote and I think you're right. Cultural intersubjectivity should be a method with which to erode caste prejudices and equality is not necessarily a bi-product of cultural groupings...IN THEORY. I am playing the devil's advocate here in replying to you, but I think the argument against what you said, as you stated yourself, is that it is idealist. Perhaps inequality was not the right word but I can't think of anywhere in the world right now where cultural groups exist alongside each other without some element of friction or divisiveness. Cultural intersubjectivity is becoming more and more possible in our globalised world that's for sure, but it could be said that to divorce yourself from your basic cultural heritage is impossible. We are all somewhat biased and we can't escape that. Maybe what you're saying Siwalik is that the basic cultural heritage needs to be one of inclusiveness and open-mindedness. Maybe it is possible, I don't know, but I do know it would take a long time. It's certainly not been achieved in the West yet either. Is this all too pessimistic?!? And am I getting too abstact? Are there any more examples that sum it all up simply like KGURUNG's revelation does? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 02-Nov-02 01:13 PM
"We are all somewhat biased and we can't escape that. ......" True. Not true. Racism is wrong, but the intensity of it in the form of slavery or apartheid is not the same as of segregation. Social transformation is possible. Progess is possible. And that applies to casteism as well. Grouping up people to look down upon them, to marginalize them --- that is wrong. And that wrong has to be amended. Change is possible. The question is how? Not if? |
| SIWALIK | Posted
on 02-Nov-02 02:09 PM
kkm: Do you mean to say that you do not have any friends from so called lower castes of do you mean to say that you have some but you have overcome the society-imposed segragation with your personal consciousness based triumph? There is a difference. If you have friends from all strata of society but treat them all equal, then it is an achievement for us all. It will be a shining example to prove that equality can be achieved. But on the other hand, if you do not have friends from all levels of life, then that would be something else. A tragedy! |
| KKM | Posted
on 03-Nov-02 12:04 PM
paramendra, Talking about Janakpur: Let's say Bhanu Chowk is point A and the train station is point B. If you construct and equiangular triangle facing east, point C would be my (well my parents') house. And where are you from? When I was younger I used to speak Maithali and Nepali but as I started spending more time in Kathmandu and came to the US, my command of Maithali is quickly approaching 0. SIWALIK, this is what I said earlier, "I do not have single friend from the lower cast. That is because I refuse to see another person as being from a lower or higher cast". It's for you to try and understand what I said the way you can. Different people may understand it differently. That is the intention. Look at it as a Haiku. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 03-Nov-02 12:13 PM
"Look at it as a Haiku." LOL |
| SIWALIK | Posted
on 03-Nov-02 08:32 PM
A simple Nepali like me has no capacity to decipher haikus. I indulge in straight talks and will give you straight answers, even though they may sound idealistic. |
| Nepe | Posted
on 03-Nov-02 08:43 PM
There is no dispute that despite our efforts of past whatever years, the casteism continues to harm and humiliate Dalits. It remains a formidable evil and a shame of Nepal and India. It remains to be eradicated. In other words, what we have been doing so far for it is not enough. What more can we do ? That is the question. If you do not have answer, admit it. How can you discredit others if you don’t have an answer or a better answer. This is to all those who criticize Paramendra’s proposal without providing a better suggestion. Among all those who suggested some answers other than Paramendra’s, only one that impressed me was that of Siwalik. Siwalik wrote: > The best way to deal with caste system is to find a greater vision of >national upliftment. If we can unite the nation ideologically to move >toward a better future, we need an ideological glue that will make >caste system irrelevant…. What I mean is there are extenuating >circumstances that will mute the caste system. If there were to >emerge a leader who can move the nation with his vision and >dedication to uplift the nation, things can change in a hurry. >Nepal can rise within a generation to take a better position in >the world. We need such natinal vision. Well, I am idealistic. >That is not a good thing to be in these days, they say. Well, I think the otherwise. The worst thing one can do these days, a trying time, is not to be idealistic and jump into the flowing Tukucha. If idealistic means something that is not going to be achieved, then I do not think what Siwalik said is idealistic. It is only a matter of time, we have to be there. Nepal is not going to remain a primitive, backward and self-defeated country for ever. What we are seeing today is the last chamak-dhamak of the old order. It is a different thing that some of us have blinded by this chamak and drawing wrong conclusions. A new Nepal is about to be born. This new nation, now free from political and social constraints represented and symbolized by the monarchy, will attract many a ‘Onta haru’ to take up the political leadership (why do you think ‘Ontaharu’ are not joining the current politics ? It is the damn royal family they have to do dhanushtankar namaskar all the time !). We will have visionary leaders, not jokers like Girija and Deuba. That is when we really can do samajik and arthik kranti our country is waiting since 2007. But, should we ask Dalits to be patient until then ? Is there nothing Dalits can do ? No, think I. Equal dignity is the right of Dalits. Adhikar khosera matra paainchha. Dalits need to be radical. I don’t mean they have to take arms. It should be non-violent, but definitely radical led by Nepali Ambedkar and Martin Luther. After some thinking I have come to a point to support Paramendra’s idea of Dalit’s mass conversion to other religion. I think it should work. My logic is as follows. I want to say upfront that I do not have a preference in religion, unlike Paramendra. All religions are imperfect. So the usefulness of the conversion of Dalits is not the benefit other religions provide but rather the message it sends to the supremacist high caste people as well as Dalits themselves. It is like when an abused wife leaves her abusing husband and be with another man, it is not the other man but mostly her decision to leave the abusive husband that forces the abusing husband to give her the respect she deserves. He might try to look down upon her if not challenged. But when she will look at him eye to eye and say, ‘fu-k your supremacy, I am no longer your slave’, that bastard will not dare even in his dream to disrespect her. How about educating the abusive husband. Well we must by all means. But don’t ask the wife not to leave him. I support you Paramendra. But not because one religion is superior to the other. |
| SIWALIK | Posted
on 03-Nov-02 09:05 PM
Conversion is one way, but not sufficient to change the society. An anarchist communitarian approach like that of Gandhi would help establish a self-sufficient educated community to develop. When we talk of raising dalits, there are two components, I think. One is the social acceptance, the other is instilling confidence in the dalits themselves. That is crucial. It would not be practical to expect those who have been accustomed to feeling inferior since ages to suddenly feel they are equal in the society that has worked against the concept of equality. Such a movement needs dedicated leaders who are on the ground rather than those posting on the internet from afar. As far as conversion goes, the movement needs a national voice and platform that goes beyond mere conversion and includes the likes of "kamaiyas" etc. All marginalized population has a stake in uniting and forming or supporting a common vision. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 04-Nov-02 02:42 AM
"There is no dispute that despite our efforts of past whatever years, the casteism continues to harm and humiliate Dalits.........." Thank you. I was waiting for someone to make this fundamental point. (1) Please describe the problem, help describe it. (2) Suggest remedies. Where do we go from here? Denial is not just a rive in Egypt, they say. "If we can unite the nation ideologically to move toward a better future, we need an ideological glue that will make caste system irrelevant........." Apt. I think the national economy can be that "glue." "...many a ‘Onta haru’ ..." Excuse my impertinence, but the phrase has comical undertones for me by now, especially perhaps since I personally don't know either the author or the subject. "...(why do you think ‘Ontaharu’ are not joining the current politics ? It is the damn royal family they have to do dhanushtankar namaskar all the time !)...." I am with you: the monarchy has to go. If not now, then when? Patro hernu parne ho tyaka lagi pani? "...Adhikar khosera matra paainchha. Dalits need to be radical. ..." I agree. Political organization. Create a vote bloc that noone in electoral politics can ignore, or will do at their own peril. "..thinking I have come to a point to support Paramendra’s idea of Dalit’s mass conversion to other religion..." Thanks for the kind words. But not exacly my idea. I trace it to Ambedkar. I only borrowed it. "...How about educating the abusive husband. Well we must by all means. But don’t ask the wife not to leave him. ..." What a powerful metaphor! I could not have said it better. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 04-Nov-02 02:47 AM
"Conversion is one way, but not sufficient to change the society." It is one way, perhaps the best way. But I don't think anyone has been arguing it might be the only way. Hence the open question, what does everyone here suggest? What are the options the Dalits have, you think? "...leaders who are on the ground rather than those posting on the internet from afar..." You are more kind. Someone else somewhere has talked of these web discussions as mental masturbation! I disagree. It is not as good as being on the ground, but it is much better than nothing, and I maintain these discussions are of value. As in real value, for possible action on the ground itself. |
| chandrama | Posted
on 04-Nov-02 07:30 AM
Hi Everyone, Two things: 1. I am also a supporter of Nepe's metaphor. The way caste is structured depends on the superiority of the high castes in CONTRAST to the inferiority of the low castes. This means that it will not be until all the ideas held by society about the superiority of the high castes are broken down that the corresponding inferiority of the low castes can dissappear. But this is happening slowly is it not? 2. I still feel quite unsure about the conversion idea. Why should anyone feel that conversion is necessary? Why should someone have to leave their religion and the lifestyle associated with it (which may have repurcussions in social and family life) as a way to escape discrimination. The high castes have no such lack of choice...but if there were conversions there too then the same point would be reached. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 10-Nov-02 12:18 AM
"I still feel quite unsure about the conversion idea..........." Freedom of religion: a fundamental human right. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 10-Nov-02 12:55 AM
I believe there are parallels between caste-based prejudices and gender-based prejudices. http://eserver.org/feminism/cross-gender-comm.txt "....its potential ability to help people, no matter what their gender, race, or physical appearance, communicate with each other with fewer prejudices and misunderstandings than any other medium in existence............. but in just as many ways, it replicates the biases, contradictions, and prejudices of our society. .......... gave participants a choice of anonymous postings, the same people tended to post, although a few more low status participants sent in questions and comments............ relatively few women posted in most of the social newsgroups ......... "In almost any 'open' network, men monopolize the talk" ........... the cross-gender communications gap is as vast as any cross-cultural communication gap ........... " |
| paramendra | Posted
on 10-Nov-02 04:36 PM
".....Almost all our tribal communities take beef. Many Scheduled Castes in South India eat beef. How can (Murli Manohar) Joshi impose his non-beef eating culture on us? Beef is part of our food culture. Any attempt to relate it to any other religion, is a distortion of history. And we will not accept it silently.' ............ The Hinduvta forces have deleted important parts from history, like the caste system. Let the UP elections come, they will choose each and every candidate on the basis of their caste.' ............... The caste system has not got objective representation in our history books. Just as the destruction and eradication of Buddhism from this country does not find a mention ............" http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/brahman/bra001/brah0117.html
This map here is interesting, at the Dalistan site. Shows, among other things, Mithila, Gurkhaland, and Gurungland. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 10-Nov-02 04:42 PM
An Untouchable Subject? Indian Government Wants Caste System off U.N. Agenda "....Many villages are strictly segregated by caste, and the untouchables -- or Dalits -- are often forbidden to drink from upper-caste wells or to worship at their temples......... Nearly 20 percent of the seats of India's parliament are reserved for them. Government jobs and places in India's schools are also reserved for them. Despite all this, discrimination still persists. .......... activists and human-rights groups insist that, even if discrimination against the Dalits is intra-racial, the effects are nevertheless the same. ......... 160 million Dalits in India ........ " |
| bhedo | Posted
on 10-Nov-02 04:57 PM
Lol@dalitstan. I used to post there all the time, till I figured out what it's all about. That stupid website must be run by some Pakistanis.It's so damn obvious. "White" brahmins? hahahha. That's the funniest shit I have ever read in my life! That site has no credibility whatsoever. |
| suna | Posted
on 11-Nov-02 07:44 AM
Paramendra Just like you have a problem with the word "madheysi" or "madhesi" or whatever your grievance was about that word. I have a major problem with the term "mongoloid" AND your ignorant use of it. You want to be so uptight in how people address you and YOU misuse terms at the same time?How contradictory! BUT to give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you weren't aware so here it is: mongoloid = "The traditional terms for these populations Caucasoid (or Caucasian), Mongoloid, Negroid, and in some systems Australoidare now controversial in both technical and nontechnical usage, and in some cases they may well be considered offensive." |
| paramendra | Posted
on 11-Nov-02 11:52 AM
"...the term "mongoloid" ...." Suna. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I am sorry if you are offended. I have not used the term. It is a quote from some website. Dalitistan. Peace. May I ask where the definition you quote comes from? |
| BathroomCoffee | Posted
on 11-Nov-02 01:04 PM
Yeah this is what I am talking about...From Bahadur to Mongloid now ? aka Madisey not marshya, south Asian not nepali..he has used the tern before go back and Scroll through his writings when he claimed to be south asian and not Nepali.. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 11-Nov-02 01:13 PM
Bathtubteapot: The term "Bahadur" is an offensive one, and I used it as such is a specific case to counter the blatant, no-apologies-intended use of the term "madisey." The correct term is Madhesi or Teraiwasi, not marsya, dhoti, etc. Which are like the term n----r. I have yet to see you apologize for your use of those terms. As for the term Mongoloid, as I have said, it was a quote. Not my term. Go back and look a few posts up. South Asian. I would think you would consider yourself a Homo Sapien, an Asian and a South Asian. Or are you not? Do you think Nepal is some island in the Pacific? But then you don't intend dialogue. Your ambition is to become some unpleasant background noise. I am glad you have some time on your hands. |
| Hamjayega | Posted
on 12-Nov-02 12:48 AM
The term "Bahadur" is an offensive one and I used it in such a specific case.... Paramendra, I beg to differ. The term "BAHADUR" literally means BRAVE in any language within the Indian Sub-continent. BAHADURs need not necessarily be a pahadi nepali doorman in most of the tall building of Bombay, Delhi or Calcutta for that matter. There are hundreds of doormans in India who are not BAHADUR's from the pahadi region of Nepal and neither are they BRAVE in the literal sense. Nonetheless, I fail to understand the double standard logic used to determine term "BAHADUR" when it comes to a non Nepali. If only we had a single logic behind the term "BAHADUR" meaning a pahadi neplai doorman.. then I am afraid the following people would have been the highest paid Non- Nepali doormans of all times. BAHADUR SHAH ZAFAR LAL BAHADUR SHASTRI SRI GURU TEGH BAHADUR DR. NARAYAN BAHADUR BHANDARI I for one, sincerely admire the following names MAN BAHADUR DHAN BAHADUR DIL BAHADUR GYAN BAHADUR SHER BAHADUR RAP BAHADUR HIP-HOP BAHADUR AK- 47 BAHADUR TOP BAHADUR F-16 BAHADUR BILL BAHADUR BUSH BAHADUR TONY BAHADUR JLO BAHADURNI BRITNEY BAHADURNI OSAMA BAHADUR Oh well! the lists goes on n on. Peace to all the BAHADURS |
| paramendra | Posted
on 12-Nov-02 10:51 AM
Looks like the term "Bahadur" has monopolized three different threads at the same time. |
| BathroomCoffee | Posted
on 12-Nov-02 12:05 PM
Mr Bhagat writes: South Asian. I would think you would consider yourself a Homo Sapien, an Asian and a South Asian. Or are you not? Do you think Nepal is some island in the Pacific? But then you don't intend dialogue. Your ambition is to become some unpleasant background noise. I am glad you have some time on your hands. Are you stooopid to be asking those question ? I guess stoopid says stoopid does Huh ?You must be really bumb to be asking those questions Paramendra. If you don't know where Nepal is after all these years of raking in the goodies from that country..then I cannot help you there my fren. When asked where I am from For me its very simple....NEPAL..no complications there.. Yeah background noise or whatever you want to call it.. but it does shut you up from time to time doesn't it ? I intend to stick around untill you stop talking out of you ass ..And No I don't apologise to Gaddaar, Desh Drohi's....then again I would not use those terms on anyone else but you. Hamara Billi Hamiko Meow..aray |
| paramendra | Posted
on 12-Nov-02 07:17 PM
BC, you and your twin BP, are but a side show! |
| paramendra | Posted
on 13-Nov-02 11:28 AM
I think it is time to take a step back and look at this discussion at a broad sweep. There is no way to prove it for sure, but if I had to make a generalization, I would say most of the visitors here at Sajha are of the Nepali Speaking High Caste Male background. What are we, mere individuals? Perhaps not. Our group identities matter, or there would not be that great a fuss over my having called myself a South Asian, and not a Nepali, as the cultural term goes. A Kuber Sharma, or a Kirtinidhi Dahal might be an individual of talent who worked hard and scored success, but it can not be denied that their social background was and has been relevant. They had more breaks and fewer roadblocks along the way precisely because of their background. If you come to Sajha, that means you have the option to come online, which means you have attained a level of success that is commendable not just by Nepali standards but also global, even by American or European standards. In that bracket there rests a fake pretension that we are exceptions to the rule: we no longer harbor prejudices, for we have seen the world, read a few books, participated in a few intellectual discussions. But that sentiment rings hollow. Precisely because you might have gained substantial education, your ability to see injustice where it exists should have been augmented, and if it has not, then I doubt the kind of education you might have put yourself through. An education that might have pushed you to more comfortable income brackets, but one that blinds you to social discrepancies from which you continue to derive advantages. Be it the silence on the issue of race relations in the global arena, the Indophobia on the sub-continental level, or the anti-Terai seething hatred, the marginalization of the janajatis, the "place" that the dalits are kept in, and the overriding sexism that not even many women are vocal enough about: there is a poverty of the social conscience among the Sajha audience. Caste is but a pretext. |
| bathroomcoffee | Posted
on 13-Nov-02 02:16 PM
Pashumendra, Shut the fk up..you and your bulshit. It ws nice and quiet. but you had to bring this up again MORON. Why fk you want to know who comes to Sajha..its none of your fking business who comes here and who doesn't. You and your Indophobia can shove it up where the sun don't shine ok.. Try try and act like all Saint like here we all know that you are a GADDAR. As they say in Nepal, JOO CHOR USKAI THULOO SHOOR." |
| batauli | Posted
on 13-Nov-02 06:53 PM
PB: I think it is time to take a step back and look at this discussion at a broad sweep. There is no way to prove it for sure, but if I had to make a generalization, I would say most of the visitors here at Sajha are of the Nepali Speaking High Caste Male background. Batauli: More than half of Nepali population speaks NEPALI. Almost half of Nepali population is MALE. Caste, imho, is limited to one's ethnicity, there are equivalents of Brahmin, Chhetri, Baishya, Shudra in Newars, SeTaMaGuRaLis, and other groups. Isn't BHAGAT some sort of upper caste ? PB: What are we, mere individuals? Perhaps not. Our group identities matter, or there would not be that great a fuss over my having called myself a South Asian, and not a Nepali, as the cultural term goes. A Kuber Sharma, or a Kirtinidhi Dahal might be an individual of talent who worked hard and scored success, but it can not be denied that their social background was and has been relevant. They had more breaks and fewer roadblocks along the way precisely because of their background. Batauli: Could you not say the same for (Dr.) K I Singh? PB: If you come to Sajha, that means you have the option to come online, which means you have attained a level of success that is commendable not just by Nepali standards but also global, even by American or European standards. In that bracket there rests a fake pretension that we are exceptions to the rule: we no longer harbor prejudices, for we have seen the world, read a few books, participated in a few intellectual discussions. But that sentiment rings hollow. Batauli: Sajha, or any online forum, is a more level playing field than other forums. In anonymous mediums like this, one's REAL identity and background is irrelevant, unless that is the only trick up your sleeve. PB: Precisely because you might have gained substantial education, your ability to see injustice where it exists should have been augmented, and if it has not, then I doubt the kind of education you might have put yourself through. An education that might have pushed you to more comfortable income brackets, but one that blinds you to social discrepancies from which you continue to derive advantages. Batauli: A "substantially educated" person, like yourself Paramendra, does not lean on their ethnicity, and cry foul. Don't you take advantages of the social discrepancies that exists in your neighborhood, in your gaun, in your Janakpur area? Will you embrace a Kirati brother, who does not speak Nepali, who is not "substantially educated", and who is not "MADHISE", as your own? No, you won't. Because your education, your halla_khalla puts you up in the pedestal. And you have been disconnected from the Terai_wasi that you talk about. You are just one of us.. Paramendra... PB: Be it the silence on the issue of race relations in the global arena, the Indophobia on the sub-continental level, or the anti-Terai seething hatred, the marginalization of the janajatis, the "place" that the dalits are kept in, and the overriding sexism that not even many women are vocal enough about: there is a poverty of the social conscience among the Sajha audience. Caste is but a pretext. Batauli: Where exactly do you stand? Is it the woman's fault that she is not vocal about sexism... Paramendra, have you thought of EMPOWERING the dalits, janajatis, madhises, and all the "talla barga", instead of using them and their plights as your bait... -batauli |
