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| Username | Post |
| ashu | Posted
on 13-May-03 05:49 PM
Hi all, What is poverty? How do you define who the poor are? Does "low" financial income necessarily imply poverty? Or does the very definition of "poverty" needs to be challenged and expanded? For a very fascinating series of recent research and fascinating debates, please click on (PDF files) http://www.columbia.edu/~sr793/ oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| intruder | Posted
on 13-May-03 08:04 PM
Who is poor? I am...I am poor...I am very very poor, I am poorer than the homeless guy on the side of the street. Okay I live in a nice Washington suburbon neighborhood, drive a luxury car and have a job that pays above average salary. But I'm still poor...I can barely afford to pay for my bread and butter. I get tired of shuffling my credit card balance from one bank to another just to get lower promotional rate. Yes, I have over 30K of unprotected credit card balance that I've been carrying since my freshman days more than ten years ago. And then there's the car loan and additional Virginia State luxury tax for having the German import. Oh yeah ...and I was recently pulled over for speeding and then arrested for DUI, all I had was two glasses of red wine....well and then few shots of tequilla. Can you imagine what my car insurance is gonna be like now? Oh and let's not talk about the house mortgage, it really hurts, at least when I'm sober. My home insurance refused to pay for the damages that was done during the ice storm, unless I wanted to pay some hefty deductible, or settle for higher insurance rate from that point on. I don't care what anyone says, but I think I am poor. I am really poor. SInce Ashu raised the question, and I have no idea why..but I have answers. what is poverty? I am poverty How do you define who the poor are? I am poverty Does "low" financial income necessarily imply poverty? I am poverty Or does the very definition of "poverty" needs to be challenged and expanded? Well..I'll answer that question when I get rich. You know every morning on my way to work, I see this homeless guy on the side of the street, and a thought goes through my mind, "He is so rich, at least he doesn't owe anyone anything. He can start a new life any given moment. He doesn't have to dig himself out of the hole first like I have to" My boss called me the other day to his office, and another exciting thought went through my mind "I am filing for bankruptcy and I'm gonna join the homessless guy and be as rich and happy as him". But unfortunately I wasn't fired. At least not yet. But I am looking forward to a day when I'm free of poverty. Poor me |
| ashu | Posted
on 13-May-03 08:27 PM
Intruder, My sympathies. Still, with "[a residence] in a nice Washington suburbon neighborhood, driv[ing] a luxury [German-imported] car and hav[ing] a job that pays above average salary", just think: How lucky you are compared to millions your fellow-Nepalis and compared to millions of citizens in the country of your adoption !! As Laxmi Prasad Devkota put it: "Suna ko thaila, haata ka maila, kay garnu dhana lay Saaga ra sisnu kha.yera basnu anandi man lay" [Source: Muna Madan khanda-kabya] The Web site is run by Sanjay Reddy, an economist is commited to contribute theories to sharpen debates concerning issues in international development. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| PrabasiSwor | Posted
on 13-May-03 08:40 PM
Intruder ji's comments reminds me of this poem that i recently read on paradesh.com: Soruce URL: http://www.paradesh.com/readArt.php?artId=113 gjbf;tf bf;tf bf]if xf], of] k|yf dfl;of], k|Zg xf] cfhsf] d]l6of] jf 5 of]À bf; tf bf; y], cy{n] jl~rt, cfhsf bf; x'g\ jf logL klG8t gf]s/L ub{5g\ k] ;a} a}°df bflvnf ug'{n] l/Rftf xftdf, zf]N8cfp6\ 5g\ e/] nf} logL x}g t v} sxf dfl;of] bf;tf 5}g t< ljZjsf] df´df cy{n] >]i7 of] b]z xf] t} oxf bf;tf JofKt ef], sfddf hf]ltO{ hf]ltO{ k] eof] aLnsf] gfddf a}°n] nLlbof] gf]s/L :j]R5of 5flgg] bf;tf bf;tfsf] egL 1fg g} 5}g tf, lsGb5g\ 3/ oxf r9\b5g\ sf/df &6\ofS;a|]s\Ú nf]en] 8'Ab5g\ C0fdfÀÀ u[x 5g\ sf/ 5g\ ;fgdf zf}st &d}Ú egL eGb5g\, sf] dxfg\ 5}g t< hflu/} uf] eg], ltg{ g} s] a'tf sfddf q:t 5g\, bf;tf x}g tf< sf/sf] g} lagf s] oxf af Rg' 5À C0fdf sf/ nL a]sf/df gfRg' 5À a'l4hLjL ;a} xLgtf af]wn] n'Sb5g\ vf6\d'gL nf} 7"nf] s|f]wn]À 8'Ag'sf] x]otf la;{g] hGt'n] lsGb5g\ ´g\ a8f 3/\ oxf tGt'n] . kfOg] nf} oxf C0fdf u|f];/L s|]l86} sf8{sf] wfsn] gf} d'/L ÀÀ bf;tf ug{df 5f]8g' x'Gg x]À &aLn k]Ú ug{df 6'6g' x'Gg /]À jf 5'6] bf;tf jf 5'6] &aLn k]Ú u]x cf} sf/ tf nf} n'6] ;fx'n] ÀÀ a}° g} ;fx' x'g\, ;fx'sf sf/ x'g\, u]x cf} dfgdf a}° g} :jfdL x'g\ÀÀ xfdL tf gUg 5f}+ bf; g} x" sxf < dfl;of] bf;tf of] t xf] gUgtf ÀÀ cfhsf] hLj x" ljZjdf jlGbtÀ :ju{sf] b]zdf 5' c´} ulGbgÀ bf; x" ;f; x" d} d/]+ elGbgÀ /+u of] km]l/of], bf;tf dflGbgÀÀ To} x'g] cfTddf bDen] uDd 5À cfhsf] dflg;} dfbn] 6Dd 5À b]z of] ljZjsf] ;j{yf pRr xf]À bf;tf ´g\ oxf ÚNg] cf} Ú'Ng] ef]ÀÀ ç |
| KaleKrishna | Posted
on 13-May-03 08:57 PM
A tricky question indeed, who can be defined as poor...hmm Is it not those whose resources falls short of expectations and requirements. We are all poor because our expectations exceed our requirements and that again lies beyond the capacity of our resources. I don't think it is wise enough to judge richness by evaluating material things only, what about a hermit and priest, can we call him poor? In this same line, we cannot categorize all Nepali's as poor, for their expectations are not that high (it is a different story all together their basic requirements are also not fulfilled by their resources). So wider defination of poverty should include sustainability, rather than momentary materialistic measuring stick. |
| Montou | Posted
on 14-May-03 02:54 AM
Ashu dai and All, Well let me add a little here too. POVERTY? Well poverty in a worldly sense or in a spiritual realm? In a worldly sense people might think I am the poorest but in a spiritual realm, I consider myself the richest. Gold, silver, money I have NOT but what I have is Love, Peace, Joy, Hope and all the goodstuff. Just sharing my heart here. La ta hai sabaijana ramrari basauhola... Sabailai dherai dherai maya ra samjhana... By His Grace, Montou montougurung@hotmail.com |
| SITARA | Posted
on 14-May-03 06:43 AM
Poverty? Such an abstract phenomena when it is romanticised, glorified and even philosophysed (does this word exist?). The physical aspect of poverty can be rural or urban. Rural, is the term used to describe the poor in "developing" and "third world" countries. The theme, coined based on the dearth of monetary, material goods/ commodities... "dayaniya stithi" re. But urban poverty is as dayaniya. Poverty is relative to the geographical and environmental context to which it is compared with. Urban poverty (like innercity poverty) hits hard but it is less noticeable. Most innercity kids I have noticed have designer clothes/shoes and all the nicks and nacks of a "developed" world. However,the dearth lies below the surface, in credit card debts, unhealhy/junk food, drugs, unsafe neighborhoods, lack of education and lack of medical care. One might say... " those kids are stupid if they don't utilize the resources alotted to them by US society". In my observation, it is not the dearth in opportunities and/or information but rather in the receptivity of and processing of information. Teen pregnancy, a drug culture and a culture of violence is a product of a culture of poverty handed down and across as a mental conditioning. The poverty one finds here is not so much in the material goods but in the mental disability to break the vicious cycle despite what we perceive as oppotunities. Many kids in the cities (even in the affluent neighborhoods); experience abandonment not due to lack of funds but due to the fast paced/high pwered jet setting lives their parents live; the result is one of emotional abandonment... that,in itself is another form of poverty. If we theorize, anyone can observe that a dearth in the vital needs ( material or emotional)of a human being ( one popular model is that of Maslow's hierarchy of needs) produces a society of discontents. Intruder ji; you have been vocal in your expression of discontent despite having the *material* luxury of the US. However, the myth about the happy homeless ends right there.... a myth. I recall reading "Tally's Corner" by Elliot Leibow--- an ethnographic/sociological study of the homeless, and the "carefree"... one comes to the conclusion that their poverty lies in their lack of spiritual, mental and intellectual motivation. The need and the want to better one's position from a lackluster to a more productive life. Many such homeless have been discarded and disowned by their own; many await the day when they will die and won't have to wait out the rest of the days in disillusioned, dispassionate stagnancy. Most are alone in this world, lonely, afraid and dirt poor ( without the option of an education to pull themselves out of their hole), sick and homeless. Even in your most depressive state of mind, it would be a fallacy to romanticize the rootless existence of a homeless. I am sure you have more opportunities to better your situation than he does.... perhaps you might need to exercise discipline on your spending habits and re-align, recognize your immediate needs.... Perhaps, I am speaking out of turn BUT I wish you well . |
| Paschim | Posted
on 14-May-03 08:27 AM
Good to see good old Sanjay in action from the charming confines of Barnard. Reddy and Pogge's exchange with the World Bank's Ravallion is certain to contribute handsomely to the literature on poverty measures. Reminds one of the intensity from a generation ago, when AK Sen's trickle on this subject in the journal Econometrica (1970s) went on to lead a welcome flood of many original contributions. |
| Poonte | Posted
on 14-May-03 08:40 AM
A person who's never seen an airplane would never yearn to ride in one. Just because a person hasn't seen an airplane, how can one surmise that s/he would not enjoy a ride in one? Kyarni hola? yeso gareni nahuni, uso gareni nahuni...kya dilemma! I would like to think that poverty is all in the minds--that people as as poor as they THINK they are; but then again, I cannot swallow the pictures of people engulfed in destitution, albeit on my own standard. |
| boke | Posted
on 14-May-03 09:06 AM
No where have I seen more name dropping than in Sajha's forum. While to most this act may lead to conclusion that the gentleman name-dropper is very well read, I cannot but wonder if the individual is doing same because of the egotistical insecurity of his ever so fragile image. I might be wrong, but as a simple reader, that is the perception I get when I see the writings of so called intellectuals in Sajha community. |
| ashu | Posted
on 14-May-03 05:34 PM
Boke, I am puzzled by your "name-dropping" accusations. Here are the names I cited: a) Laxmi Prasad Devkota (a well known kabi) b) Sanjay Reddy (the economist whose name appears as the manager of the site www.socialanalysis.org) Maybe I'm stupid, but I find it hard to tell whether citing these two names is a manifestation of "the egotistical insecurity of [one's] ever so fragile image." As for Paschim's posting, the names he cited are: a) "good old Sanjay" [this can be explained by the fact that quite a few Nepalis personally know who Sanjay is -- and there's nothing wrong in implying that one knows Sanjay enough to call him "good old Sanjay".] b) "Reddy and Pogge's exchange with the World Bank's Ravallion" [can be understood by downloading a couple of articles from that site.] c) "A.K. Sen" [a reference easily understood by anyone reading the literature on development and poveryt and economics.] Again, I fail to detect a manifestation of "the egotistical insecurity of [one's] ever so fragile image." Sitara says, "I recall reading "Tally's Corner" by Elliot Leibow", and then goes on to explain a little bit more about the book. I take it that Sitara is simply SHARING knowledge with us and NOT exhibiting "the egotistical insecurity of [one's] ever so fragile image." Finally, Montou bhai subtly dropped Lord's name by signing off with his usual "By His Grace". But that, we have come to expect from him, haven't we?. Again, I fail to detect "the egotistical insecurity of [one's] ever so fragile image" on the part of Montou. Lesson? After having posted 1000s of pieces on the Web, one thing I have come to learn and accept is this: Web postings are unscientific and unreliable tools for psychological analyses of people one doesn't know or hasn't worked with in person. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| Boke | Posted
on 14-May-03 05:58 PM
...chor ko khutta taan! |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 14-May-03 06:03 PM
Ashu writes: Lesson? After having posted 1000s of pieces on the Web, one thing I have come to learn and accept is this: Web postings are unscientific and unreliable tools for psychological analyses of people one doesn't know or hasn't worked with in person. That is why we have to meet personally, chat / talk discuss and resolve the differences that we can not resolve in this cyberworld. The things written in internet does not have "intonations = true feeling of our hearts". While making things precise and short, we lost our heart's feeling and hospitability in the core of the posting, the core usually speak our minds, not hearts. Heart can be won only via face to face body language+ intonations of our voice: a real world gestures. Internet communication is infact, a nightmare. HG |
| Boke | Posted
on 14-May-03 06:04 PM
*kaat bhanda ke bhayo? |
| ashu | Posted
on 14-May-03 07:36 PM
Boke wrote: "...chor ko khutta taan!" No. On the contrary, I use postings like yours to participate in Sajha and to put forth my point of view . . for your and others' edification and amusement. In general, yes, I drop names when it serves my purpose, and refrain from doing so when it hurts my purpose. And over the years, I have learnt that doing either is a matter of judgment and taste, and knowing that has served me quite well. I am sure others too can say the same thing about themselves. {Working hard and knowing many people are two ways people get ahead in life, and I urge all Sajha-basis to do both as often as possible!!) On a larger note, Sajha is Sajha precisely because DIVERSE personalities bring their own biases, thought processes, prejudices, humor and ways of looking at the world -- no matter how brilliant or absurd . Sure, some of their behaviours may NOT be your or my cup of tea, but so what? Let the smply enjoy the characters!! If everyone were like everyone else with similar backgrounds and trying to please everyone else, this site would be a boring place indeed. That is why, the least we can do is tolerate the various idiosyncracies of various individuals who post stuff, without going into some kind of psychological analyses based on their Web postings. Feel free to disagree, and that's fine. Thank you again, for allowing me this opportunity to quickly participate in Sajha and to put forth a point of view as clearly and sincerely as I can. oohi "boringly earnest" ashu ktm,nepal |
| Paschim | Posted
on 14-May-03 07:45 PM
Harray! assuming the grand charge engulfs me as well, I, for once, was trying to stick to the issue by actually going to the URL recommended by Ashutosh, downloading the relevant articles, reading them, and just before going off to bed, posting 2 quick thoughts that struck: Sanjay Reddy is an acquaintance who I had not been in touch with for over 2 years. Thus, was damn good to see "good old Sanjay" in a great intellectual debate with Ravallion of the kind that I personally have not seen since Sen's 1970s papers on the subject. When one actually makes it a point to visit the Vatican, it would be silly not to take a mild interest in the Pope. |
| a_sajhaite | Posted
on 14-May-03 09:06 PM
Hey....kati thulo thulo articles post gareko yaar.....afno thoughts ali syano ma describe garnu paryo ni ....padher pani mazaa aauncha.. |
| KurLey | Posted
on 15-May-03 08:53 AM
Hellooooo!!!!, Could you guys who want to complain on the content/context of the writing do so by statrting another thread?... I think there is a healthy discussion going on here about poverty and for someone to come and distract and make every other posting by Ansu ji, a "does Ansu watch porno" type third grade postings, its very unintellectual of Sajhabadis. dhanyaabaad and peace... |
| ashu | Posted
on 15-May-03 09:27 AM
Thank God for the Web!! Here's a New Yorker article that attempts to tie up the art of "knowing people" (or, uncharitably, name-dropping) with, among other things, poverty reduction!! Enjoy this well-written article. oohi ashu ktm,nepal *********** Six Degrees of Lois Weisberg She's a grandmother, she lives in a big house in Chicago, and you've never heard of her. Does she run the world? January 11, 1999, The New Yorker http://www.gladwell.com/1999/1999_01_11_a_weisberg.htm |
| ashu | Posted
on 15-May-03 09:32 AM
An extract: Lois is a type -- a particularly rare and extraordinary type, but a type nonetheless. She's the type of person who seems to know everybody, and this type can be found in every walk of life. Someone I met at a wedding (actually, the wedding of the daughter of Lois's neighbors, the Newbergers) told me that if I ever went to Massapequa I should look up a woman named Marsha, because Marsha was the type of person who knew everybody. In Cambridge, Massachusetts, the word is that a tailor named Charlie Davidson knows everybody. In Houston, I'm told, there is an attorney named Harry Reasoner who knows everybody. There are probably Lois Weisbergs in Akron and Tucson and Paris and in some little town in the Yukon Territory, up by the Arctic Circle. We've all met someone like Lois Weisberg. Yet, although we all know a Lois Weisberg type, we don't know much about the Lois Weisberg type. Why is it, for example, that these few, select people seem to know everyone and the rest of us don't? And how important are the people who know everyone? This second question is critical, because once you begin even a cursory examination of the life of someone like Lois Weisberg you start to suspect that he or she may be far more important than we would ever have imagined -- that the people who know everyone, in some oblique way, may actually run the world. I don't mean that they are the sort who head up the Fed or General Motors or Microsoft, but that, in a very down-to-earth, day-to-day way, they make the world work. They spread ideas and information. They connect varied and isolated parts of society. Helen Doria says someone high up in the Chicago government told her that Lois is "the epicenter of the city administration," which is the right way to put it. Lois is far from being the most important or the most powerful person in Chicago. But if you connect all the dots that constitute the vast apparatus of government and influence and interest groups in the city of Chicago you'll end up coming back to Lois again and again. Lois is a connector. Lois, it must be said, did not set out to know everyone. "She doesn't network for the sake of networking," says Gary Johnson, who was Lois's boss years ago, when she was executive director of the Chicago Council of Lawyers. "I just think she has the confidence that all the people in the world, whether she's met them or not, are in her Rolodex already, and that all she has to do is figure out how to reach them and she'll be able to connect with them." |