| Username |
Post |
| echoes |
Posted
on 14-Jun-03 02:27 PM
The Caste System in Nepal and India: A Religious or Social Problem?
Theories on how the caste system might have been established
in India and Nepal are conflicting. The Rig Veda divides Hindu
society in four varnas, but does not clearly imply as to the status
of one varna in relation to the others. There is a distinction in the
professions each of these groups was supposed specialize on, but that didnt
simply allow one group to claim the social superiority over the other.
Nevertheless, the caste system in India seems to have been rooted in the
(mis)interpretation of this mythology.
But it gets more complex in Nepal as we see many not-originally-Hindu ethnic communities also grouped together as jaats,
which are essentially defined as the sub-class of the four varnas. It is
obvious that such stratifying labels were imposed upon these non-Hindu tribes
by the dominating Hindu varnas, possibly Brahmins and Kshtriyas. In
effect, the origin of the 36 jaats in Nepal might have been more social
than religious.
I remember I was taught in my high school history class and
afterwards, where Jayasthiti Malla, the king of Patan, was attributed to have
introduced vocation-based classes, which would later become the castes. One of
the Divyopadeshas of king Prithvi Narayan Shah also recognizes the 36-jaats
based caste system (although it does call for a shared access to the
states resources among all castes). There have also been suggestions that the
caste system was based on race, therefore, justifies its endogamous nature.
No matter how it started, most of the educated population
now regards this system as unjust and a barrier in the efforts towards social
assimilation.
But political leaders in both India and Nepal have always
been elusive about the issue, primarily due to their unwillingness to challenge
the orthodox Hindu groups and traditions, which still maintain a significant
degree of influence among the population. All kings in the history of
Nepal have subscribed to this notion of the status-oriented caste system, at
least in order to retain their control over the subjects. In India,
Gandhi advocated for the compliance with the four varnas as a means for
social stability and harmony. He has further asserted that the
innumerable sub-castes could also be desirable.
However, there have been several unsuccessful attempts of
social reforms in the Nepali and Indian history as they pertained to the caste
system and untouchablity. I understand that a number of governmental and
non-governmental organizations have been actively pursuing to eliminate this
extreme manifestation of social injustice in Nepal, but the results havent
been tangible. In India, also, the beginning of the organized efforts to
abolish untouchability can be dated back to as early as the 1920s.
Unfortunately, the so called lower-caste groups remain underrepresented in all
walks of life in both countries.
As an enthusiast of social organization theories, I was
interested in how the Sajha community would respond to in regards to the origin,
perception, practice, revolutions and political conservatism on the issue of
the caste system that exists in Nepal and India.
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| yogi |
Posted
on 14-Jun-03 02:48 PM
Dear echoesji,
Nobody has said caste system is a boon to the society. Due to this caste system predominant in our Hindu culture, Hinduism could not spread all over the world as other religion. It looks like Hindu Dharma is based on racial discrimination.
In the pre-historic period those who had achieved Brahma gyan were called Brahmans. In terms of modern interpretation it can be termed as the state of self-actualization. For actual Brahmans there should be no difference between pain and pleasure.
In Nepal, I am sure nobody pays any attention to philosophical aspect of Hinduism. I had to read Bhagvad Gita, Dhammopad, Rigbeda, and Upanishad in English. I did not find any good book in Nepali. I do not know how to read Sanskrit. Even if this cast classification is mentioned in Vedas, there is nothing that says Only Brahmin should read Vedas.
Chetriya ruled Nepali society with the help of Brahmin for a long period. Collectively they misused religion to their advantage. Nobody can change whatever has happened in the past but now everybody has a chance to become Brahmin through deep knowledge and self-actualization not because they were born in the Brahmin family.
Yogi
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| echoes |
Posted
on 14-Jun-03 03:04 PM
Yogi-ji,
I agree with everything you have said except the first and the last sentences.
You said, "Nobody has said caste system is a boon to the society."
Then I question you on your subsequent sentence,
"If nobody has said caste system is a boon to the society", then why is "this caste system predominant in our Hindu culture?"
I strongly believe that there are some hard-core proponents of the caste system in our society.
And on your last sentence: "but now everybody has a chance to become Brahmin through deep knowledge and self-actualization "
My question is, does the society acknowledge such Brahmins? Would their status in the society be similar to those who are born-Brahmins? Are there any examples to support your claim?
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| Paschime |
Posted
on 16-Jun-03 09:53 AM
echoes ji,
This topic has potential to breed dirty fightings as we have seen in some other threads. But a healthy discussion may bring some healthy outcomes. BTW, do you intend to gather some information so that they will be useful for some writings? If so, what is the particular area that you are interested in? This is a broad topic.
The past has been too bitter. Clearly, for centuries there were two groups: the Oppressors and the Oppressed. The most oppressed group was called the 'Untouchables' which they want to call now the Dalits. They were oppressed both socially and economically.The Rana regime utilized it fully. So the caste system died along with the regime in 1951. Thanks to the law of 1964 which forbade discrimination against untouchables. The Dalits are fighting for their remaining rights. Any social change is a slow process. It takes time. But some untouchables have gained enormous success in the field of education and finance. Regarding the caste system, a question always triggers into my mind: If Jayasthiti Malla were alive today, whould he change the untouchables who are highly educated and in high government positions into Brahmins? ^_^
The bitter past has to be forgotten. The division of (4) groups should be eliminated from our minds. We should be known by our 'family names' not as Brahmins and Sudras. To indulge in the caste system is to push ourselves back into the stone age.
Yogi ji's last sentence may mean people of every 'caste' have an opportunity to feel proud of their 'caste'.
Echoes ji, I was amazed to see the way you presented the subject: plain English, smooth flow of thoughts, and clear intention.
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| Ahura Mazda |
Posted
on 16-Jun-03 05:47 PM
Paschime,
How the Rana regime is accounted for the exploitation of the Caste System? Their assumption of power is political rather than social. They had oppresses all the races, even the Brahmins.
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| KaleKrishna |
Posted
on 16-Jun-03 10:15 PM
In line with Yogiji's comment, that castism is a major reason why hindhuism inspite of being the oldest and most philosophical religion is on a decline. Hindhu granthas had mentioning about this aspect but it seems it was manipulated by those in advantage for their own benefit.
The caste system or what ever have been the term then must have been designed for collective social upliftment. Those relations with the three modes i.e goodness, passion and ignorance, the nature of food and living habits must have been all linked to it.
There is scientific link to human nature, and social nature that are reflected on the anthropological bioadaptive evolution that must have been the basis of the caste system.
However, like every other discoveries, caste system has also been misused to serve the selfish purpose of few to dominate the majority.
Now, in ammending the mistakes made in the past, we must be carefull not to commit another mistake by underestimating the brighter side of the issue and its incorporation in everyday life
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| boston_dude |
Posted
on 17-Jun-03 07:00 AM
If you agree that cast"ism" is wrong, then what about other aspects of Hindu religion? Or any other religion for that matter. What else could the religion have been wrong about? How about the ban on consuming beef for Hindus and pork for Muslims? I am not trying to anger anyone here, but merely trying to draw attention to other aspects of religion. I think the true lesson is not in understanding that cast"ism" is wrong, but in understanding that religion, culture, history could be wrong. That, it is possible, we might all have wrong notions of what is right and wrong.
B_D.
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| Echoes |
Posted
on 17-Jun-03 07:14 AM
As Paschime-ji has rightly pointed out, this topic could potentially cause a controversy in these difficult times. The unwillingness/reluctance on the part of Sajha readers to comment on the topic is obvious given the cool response this thread has attracted.
I was not aware of the recent incidents that took place here until a reader recently emailed me about it, further suggesting that I request the Webmaster that my thread be deleted. I was saddened.
I recognize that the timing of my thread has not been proper but would like to request that it not be perceived as a means for inappropriate fights. All I intend is a healthy debate/discussion, which could benefit all.
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| jaya_nepal |
Posted
on 17-Jun-03 10:38 AM
As far as I know, Hindu religion doesnt discrminate anyone on the basis of the castes as it is done today. Earlier Brahmins were the most respected people in the society due their exceptional knowledge and their direct contacts with the Hindu dieties. But once, education came into being, I mean professionalism, people started consulting doctors, and engineers for their respective work. Soon, the Brahmans were only confined with religious activities of the society. Few did not want to loose their high status in the society, and that is when the class system came up into being. They divided the society in such that they would remain on highest level. And as time passed, people kept on dividing the society to maintain their high status. And here we are all today, with so many jaatis or barnas.
In today's world, and according to the Hindu religion, all people are one. Then why this discrimination.
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| sewak |
Posted
on 17-Jun-03 11:01 AM
Discrimination is Number One disease in Nepal. It has brought us to the present crisis. Eliminating this plague is the only way to prosperity and national unity.
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| maximum20 |
Posted
on 17-Jun-03 09:27 PM
someone said the reason behind Hinduism not being big is because it is exclusive to the brahmins.
well, you all sure know you cannot become jewish. It's as strict as the being a born brahmin. so just because hinduism appears to endorse brahmin by birth does not mean it could not flourish due to that reason.
the thing with reilgion is that you cannot argue against some of the things. they have been that way for centuries. It's good to see that we have the ability to critize the society we grew up in that does not mean we can argue with the hardliners. what we need to understand is, social change is not something you can bring about by sitting down and arguing with the older generation. What we can do is try to minimize the effects of cast system in our lives as much as possible.
The origin of caste system could be anything. It could have started out as an intelligent effort to organize the society through strict division of labor. There's no doubt it turned ugly and it's simply stupid to try and use religion as an excuse for it's continuity.
the other problem is what is "hindu philosophy"? Some look at the gita, some look at the vedas. People who've studied the gita in some depth have probably seen that it mocks the vedas and explicitly mentions the futility of the vedas. hence to say "hindu philosophy implies this" is a flawed statement because there is no ONE hindu philosophy.
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| Poonte |
Posted
on 18-Jun-03 08:43 AM
Kasari shuru bho chaai thaha bhayena, tara yeso antyasthi chaai turuntai garna parne ho...aankha ko kasingar jasto...
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| Paschime |
Posted
on 18-Jun-03 02:28 PM
When the citizens were busy fighting each other over the caste superiority, there was less chance to unite all and uprise against the regime. Then the Ranas did not have to worry of losing the power. In this sense, Ahura Mazda ji, the Rana regime fully utilized the caste system.
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| knt |
Posted
on 18-Jun-03 02:58 PM
Caste system is the vein of Hinduism; it can truly never be broken. Why should I or my kinfolk do away with a genius system invented by our ancestors to preserve our culture, heritage and to not let outside genes get into our pool? I do not understand the logic behind this. Someone has to explain this to me.
Plus look, it gives me a sense of pride and belonging and lets me identify myself with my people. I am no segregationist; I believe that for a fledgling and burgeoning country like Nepal, group unity is a must. This, however, does not mean that miscegenation should be promoted. It should be avoided by all means. Every man should try to preserve whatever purity they have remaining. If God really wanted us to commingle, he wouldn't have created races, in the first place, would he? God meant each and every race to remain as they were. Why should WE be playing GOD? Only brahma, Vishnu and Maheshwar have that right.
Also remember, Brazil is a quintessential mixed country. If by mixing up, you think, it'll lead to homogeny, and finally, peace, you are wrong. Mixed people are the most diverse, in my opinion. They can be black, brown, white, yellow or even red. I tell you, it creates more problem in the end. If there are two siblings, one who's darker, and the other lighter, the lighter will be more favored by the parents. People will always be judged by his/her skin color, caste, race, and sex.
So let us not think of changing the system. It will always be there. Instead, aim for peace and harmony.
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| Bhunte |
Posted
on 08-Jul-03 05:01 PM
is caste system a Division of Labor or sub-species of Homo sapiens?
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| knt |
Posted
on 08-Jul-03 06:06 PM
Bhunte, I think your question is pretty simple. The answer is, it's both. It is not worth pointing out to anybody--although I will do it anyway--as most people here are part of the caste fold,that at its inception in 1800 BC, the caste system was meant to preserve the purity of the so-called fabled group of people, termed the Aryans by anthropolgists-- the same term corrupted by Nazis and white supremacists to refer to people of Nordic descent-- who came through the Khyber pass riding horse-pulled chariots (God knows how they made it through in chariots, given that Khyber pass to this day is not very navigable), thereby conquering and subjugating the dark-skinned indigenous people of the Indian subcontinent, the Dravidians of the Indus-valley Civilization fame. Hindus tend to dismiss this theory as a tool used by the British to enforce their rule in India, since they were only following the footsteps of their predecessors, who purportedly were of European stock, as evidenced by linguistic features shared by Indic and European languages. From this evidence arose the term "Indo-european" to describe languages with the same hypothetical proto indo-european root. The similarities in languages cannot be denied, and Eurasian expansion to the the subcontinent is also our history. But, in my opinion, what's debatable is when this so-called invasion occured.
You might or might not be familiar with the article that came out in 2000 regarding this, which proves without a shadow of a doubt that Eurasian expansion did happen. What the author concluded was that the high-castes were genetically more European, and the low-castes proto-asian. Some pointers about the article:
1. From mtdna analysis, it was concluded that South Asians are of East-Asian stock(still, high castes had more European genes than lower castes), while a smidgen of European genes can be found among a few.
2. From Y-chromosome analysis, it was shown that high-castes were more European than Asian, while the low-castes more Asian.
3. Autosomal analysis also came up with the same conclusion as Y-chromosome.
4. What this peculiarity points to is that the invaders were mostly males, and thus had to cohabit with indigenous women.
5. Europeanness of a South Asian is commensurable. The higher the caste, the more European genes in abundance.
However, there are some results that don't seem to fit in. For instance, the Kshatrias are more European than Brahmins. Also, another interesting inference is that Eurasian genes in India might be ~60,000 years old, if I remember correctly.
That, the genetic evidence.
And from this arose Division of Labor. The lower-castes are simply speaking thralls to higher-castes. That was how it was designed anyway.
Varna system=different shades of color.
Brahmin=white
Kshatria=red
in-between castes=brown
sudra=black
And finally, the lighter the skin, the more favorably you will be treated, whether you're in Nepal or abroad. Nobody can refute this. It's a fact everybody has to deal with.
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| Bhunte |
Posted
on 08-Jul-03 06:16 PM
thx knt for the info. i was always wondering there must be some seggregation of natural or social one...
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| suva chintak |
Posted
on 08-Jul-03 06:48 PM
I don't know if there is any connection between the so called genetic distribution and the division of labor, as some people here have asserted.
As far as I know, caste system is not an scientific rationale for the way people are socially, ritually, economically segregated. It is, instead, an ideology propagated by the dominant elites to justify their advantages and power against the weak groups. Just as capitalism is an ideology to justify the wealth of the rich as well deserved and the poverty of the masses as inevitable (becasue they are lazy, they don't save, present day orientaion and the rest of the blame the victim routine).
The Bahuns are the ones who progated the ideology of caste to serve their own purpose: it places them at the top of the hierarchy with all the privileges and perks. Just like Bush telling the world free market and privatization is good for the world, because he is at the top of the heap of this scheme of things.
I think we should have an anthropologist comment on this caste thing. I thought Sitaraji was doing anthropolgy or something...in one of her posting I remember her mentioning something about critial anthropology. I think we could do with some expert opinion on this conversation.
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| knt |
Posted
on 08-Jul-03 06:56 PM
"The Bahuns are the ones who progated the ideology of caste to serve their own purpose: it places them at the top of the hierarchy with all the privileges and perks"
It just doesn't get propogated without an origin. You seem to make it sound as if bahuns were already present before the caste system even started. The bahuns did whatever possible to stay on top. I cannot deny this. However the origin of the caste system, although nebulous, has to do with various races coming together! This in India and also Nepal!!!
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| suva chintak |
Posted
on 08-Jul-03 07:22 PM
knt,
If you are looking for origins, our scriptures say that the caste system (varna vabysta) and much of Hindu dharma sastras were given/formulated by Manu. So, Manu did originate it. Many of our learned pundits hold that Manu was a Brahmin himself. So the way I see it, it is pretty much straight forward.
I would love to hear other view points.
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| Echoes |
Posted
on 11-Jul-03 08:34 AM
knt posted on: 06-18-03 2:58 PM:
"Why should I or my kinfolk do away with a genius system invented by our ancestors to preserve our culture, heritage and to not let outside genes get into our pool?"
Two subtle issues that probably need further explanation from on part:
1. Was the system really invented to serve that purpose? Is there any documentation to support that?
2. Doesn't not letting "outside genes get into our pool" essentially isolate each group of people from others and simply lead to segregation, which you seem to oppose?
You further said:
"If God really wanted us to commingle, he wouldn't have created races, in the first place, would he? God meant each and every race to remain as they were. Why should WE be playing GOD? Only brahma, Vishnu and Maheshwar have that right."
If you could further explain:
1. How do you know your "God" really meant that?
2. How do you know only those three of the gods have that right? And what are their ranks relative to that of the "God", you have referred to.
Then you said:
"If there are two siblings, one who's darker, and the other lighter, the lighter will be more favored by the parents. People will always be judged by his/her skin color, caste, race, and sex."
A question:
Do you mean that human judgment is essentially natural therefore, cannot be changed? Why cannot people be taught not to favor a particular color or caste just like how you were taught how to read and write?
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| alnepali |
Posted
on 11-Jul-03 01:09 PM
...
Look for its origin.
and whatever it is.... ABOLISH it. Systems that practice seggregation don't deserve a place.
...
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| knt |
Posted
on 11-Jul-03 03:17 PM
Echoes, thanks for at least listening to me. People here tend to ignore views that appear eccentric. You deserve an accolade for that.
"Was the system really invented to serve that purpose? Is there any documentation to support that?"
Yes, it was. Documentation, you ask. How about the laws of Manu? Of course there are/have been no documents that directly point out the purpose of the caste system, but indeed, it is implicit in Manu's Laws, where Brahmins, the highest caste according tto Hinduism, have more prerogatives than someone of lower standing. Of course, if people still indulge in such antediluvian behaviors, they cannot be condoned. Where I stand is that the caste system can still blossom, even with equality. We do not need complete eradication of this age-old system in order to be equal. Yes, today's Brahmin might task himself to clean toilets, a duty not very Brahminic, but does that make him any less of a Brahmin by today's standards?? NO! A brahmin is his heritage, something passed on to him, and he will always remain a Brahmin. And so also applies to other caste groups. That is my point. If you read my second post, I already provided you with genetic evidence regarding how caste system came into being. Yes, castes were originally seperate races, although today different ethnic groups have so inextricably tangled up that we cannot tell a Sudra from a Brahmin in most cases.
"Doesn't not letting "outside genes get into our pool" essentially isolate each group of people from others and simply lead to segregation, which you seem to oppose"
No, not necessarily, as long as we cohabit with our own ethnic groups, it is very possible. In fact, as of now, that has indeed been the case. You are against the status quo, please remember. The caste system is still present, and endogamy is still practiced by most people. Also, as long as we have an understanding symbiotic exchange between different ethnic groups, we have integration. So no, not letting outside genes get into our blood isn't really segregation. Jews practice that too, even today.
"How do you know your "God" really meant that."
How do I know that "God" really meant races to remain seperated? I know it because if otherwise were the case, God would have created only race instead of many.
"How do you know only those three of the gods have that right? And what are their ranks relative to that of the "God", you have referred to. "
I guess I wasn't being clear here. The three are essentially one, or at least are part of the Brahman, the supreme. By referring to the three, I was basically using it as a synonym for God.
"Do you mean that human judgment is essentially natural therefore, cannot be changed? Why cannot people be taught not to favor a particular color or caste just like how you were taught how to read and write?"
Color is something that we are born to perceive and recognize, as a result of which differentiating between different colors of races is a curse(or can be a boon depending on the situation) we have to live with. There is no escaping it. We cannot be taught to be neutral to shades of color. This is a trait possessed by many living beings. It is an innate quality.
Having said that, did you know that even in Africa, lighter children are favored over darker children??? My own opinion is that for some reason humans have an affinity towards lighter shades of people. Perhaps its an inborn quality? I don't really know.
Also, please remember that you're talking about a system that has been passed down for thousands of generations. So, do you really think it can be thrown away with one sweep?
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| kalekrishna |
Posted
on 11-Jul-03 07:08 PM
Two things come separately:
Intelegence and sex power. Look at the caste system and natural evolution of sex potency. Hence somewhere it must have been a process of genetic drift that must have benn greatly influenced by the external factors (diet, physical ability). The lower category in the so called caste system is not on the receiving end and neither the high one on advantageous position (according to nature). However, people in power then and now have made it advantageous for certain section.
It is interesting to note that sub class exists in every class of the caste system so G. Orwell's notion "everyone is equal but some are more equal and others" exists everywhere.
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| knt |
Posted
on 12-Jul-03 02:48 PM
Hello???? Is anybody planning on refuting me? Or do people generally agree with me? I thought I would be blasted for my not-so PC views, but I guess I was wrong.
And looks like people are mostly indifferent to the caste-system. I don't see many replies. I wonder why.
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 12-Jul-03 06:45 PM
And a Hello to you too Knt ji !!
I agree with you that "caste" in itself is a cultural heritage passed down from our ancestors and therefore no-one has the right to take it away; however, the social evils of systematic discrimation against those born of "lower" castes other than Brahmins and Chettris should not be allowed or tolerated in any society. Whether it ( the caste system) has its origins in the "efficient" (as some supporters propose) division of labor or as a safeguard against invading religions, the caste system has been instrumental in inflicting inhuman attrocities on those less fortunate to have been born NOT a Brahmin/Chettri.
Going back to the origins of the "invading Indo Europeans" and the vague refutation of that hypothesis, I have read the article and many such others. However, According to a book recently published: "The Vedic People; their history and geography" ( 2000), by Rajesh Kocchar( an astrophysicist, Director, National Institute of Science, Technology and Development Studies, New Delhi), there WAS a migration of the Aryan RgVedic people from the South of Afganisthan. His is an indepth interdisciplinary research; a synthesis of data from a variety of fields-- linguistics, literature, natural history, geomorphology and astronomy. He asserts that the Rgvedic and the Avestan people are called Aryan because that is how they describe themselves in their texts. The term should be reserved only for them and not used in a broad, ambiguous way to refer to Indo-Europeans. Kocchar is persistent in his meticulous study of the Ved and Puranas ( the linguistic structure, geographical references made, astronomical narrations made and archaelogical findings on the implied historical sites) while cross-checking with the Avesta (the Zarathushtran holy text) which curiously have parallel philosophy, references to Indra, Agni, Varuna and the supreme position belonging to Ahura Mazda, the Lord Wisdom (Sanskrit Asura Medha). The institutions of the Vedic people and the Avestan are so similar that there can be no doubt the two are very closely related. A glaring example: the word "Iran" is derived from the word "Arya". So, yes, Kocchar, from his research has managed to resolve many a paradoxes that had dumbfounded many historians.
In reference to Manu, the lawgiver: Here, I digress...
The Rgvedas and Puranas are priestly books which have been written, re-written, revised and added upon as time progressed on. Therefore, the books have very little substantial historical evidences to back them up; they are a mixture of stories, mythology and ritual songs. However, the Puranas trace all genealogies back to Manu Vaivasvat, who apparently established the Suryavamsa or the solar line. It has been observed over time and different ancient cultures/civilizations (eg. Egyptian), rulers have projected themselves as having been born of the Sun or the Moon to allot themselves divinity that common people may not aspire to have unless born into the lineage. Manu has also been mentioned in the Avesta, as a mythical figure meant to bestow divinity on ruling dynasties. I could go into details about Manu's offsprings and the struggle for divinity and pure bloodlines that were at times fabricated, if not proven, but it would not serve my purpose.
Another argument on the importance of bloodlines: A different angle to the Mahabharat Yuddha, it was NOT about land and ownership but about bloodline ( here it might be interchangeable with caste) because Vichitravirya of the Puru-Bharata-Kuru dynasty died issueless, thus causing discontinuity. Although it was resolved (due to Ved vyasa, who fathered Dritarashtra and Pandu), discontinuity occured again when Dhritarashtra (born blind) was forbidden from the throne and the crown went to Pandu, who however, was unable to beget children. The problem of bloodline (caste, class...) then began when Pandu returned up from the jungles with his two queens and five sons of anonymous paternity, dubiously attributed to divinities. So, yes, even then the bloodline issue was a major weapon for wielding power over those considered not high born. what transpired after that was ofcourse the Mahabharata Yuddha instigated by a highly offended and enraged rightful heir of the throne, Duryodhana.
I will continue with my arguments against the "Manusmriti" and its rigid discrimination against those of "lower" castes and women.
Please bear with me... if I so happen to offend anyone while putting forth my views... :)
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| knt |
Posted
on 13-Jul-03 06:48 AM
Hey there Sitaraji, I generally agree with you!
"I agree with you that "caste" in itself is a cultural heritage passed down from our ancestors and therefore no-one has the right to take it away"
Exactly Sitaraji, this is also my view--such systemic discrimination of people who are on the lower rung of the caste system needs to be eradicated somehow. This can be done through education and generally speaking by launching some sort of campaign against such customs. However, it is being very quixotic when we denounce the caste system as being biased. It is true, and I am not denying that, but something that's been going on for thousands of years cannot be deracinated so easily. So, we need to approach it totally differently by keeping in mind that it is so deeply-rooted that the only way for equality is by uplifting the lower-castes. This is possible.
..."there WAS a migration of the Aryan RgVedic people from the South of Afganisthan"
I disagree with you here. Regarding this, the view most accepted by anthropologists would be that the so-called Aryans--and as you eloquently pointed out, these would only refer to the group of indo-europeans who migrated to South Asia in 1800 BC or so,but to tell you the truth, I take the word as a linguistic branch of indo-european languages, that is South Asian and Iranian languages--migrated to India from the steppes of Russia. There are certain haplogroups that are very prevalent among highcaste Indian groups, Northwest Indians, Iranians, Central Asians and Europeans that point to this being the case. Of course, before they migrated to India, they did have to make stops in some places, one being where the Pashtuns today reside, that is Southern Afghanistan/NWFP. That's what I believe. However, I am not saying that they looked white. Corded types were black haired and dark eyed.
Yeah, the Avesta and Rigveda have very interesting parallels.
Loved your views about Manusmriti and Rgveda and Clash of bloodlines in General. However, let me say that when I mentioned the Manusmriti and how it promotes purity , I mean that it does so implicitly.
And you know, Duryodhana wasn't really that bad of a character. He was for equality, but Yudhisthira was not.
Not offensive at all Sitara ji. I thought your views were very profound and critically thought out.
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| Echoes |
Posted
on 13-Jul-03 09:44 AM
Knt-ji,
Very thought provoking argument on the origin of a color-based social stratification, which might have turned into a system of castes that we still seem to observe and advocate for today. As much as I enjoyed reading your recent two posts on this topic, I personally did not find the justifications you have offered on why the caste system should be preserved reasonable or desirable in todays context.
I found four major grounds on your defense of the caste system, which I will try to refute in the following paragraphs:
As both of your and siTARA-jis suggestions as to when the system might have started center around the post-Vedic era, it clearly repudiates your earlier claim that the castes were effectively assigned by the three Hindu Gods and therefore, only they reserved rights to change the system. This recognition on your part is very important because it now disintegrates the caste system from the core Hindu religion.
In one of your other posts on this topic, you have suggested that the essence of the caste system is, in part, a vocation based division of labor. Your more recent post contradicts it as you asserted: today's Brahmin might task himself to clean toilets, a duty not very Brahminic, but does that make him any less of a Brahmin by today's standards?? NO! So now you have essentially acknowledged that the division of labor is no longer a valid rationale for why the caste system should be upheld.
I also disagree with another point of yours that the caste system should be retained because humans will always favor a particular color/caste. You have implied that humans are born to perceive skin color as a means to judge the virtues another human possess, therefore, favor one over another. I strongly believe that human perception of color is learned, therefore the awareness of what a particular color signifies is also not a matter of natural instinct. It, however, gives me immense pleasure that you have acknowledged that education can change a civilization. This clearly means that humans can be educated not to judge another human by his/her skin color/caste.
Now that leaves me with only one more argument that you provided in support of maintaining the caste system: that the system is ages old, therefore be preserved just like how our ancestors did. It should suffice to say that this suggestion of yours does not take into consideration the fact that todays society is very unlike the one our ancestors belonged to, therefore, the social dynamics are rightly (some wrongly!) very different.
I personally do not see any obvious advantage of keeping the caste system (effective or nominal) in Nepal.
Please enlighten me if I understood you wrong.
Respectfully Yours,
Echoes
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| Boke |
Posted
on 13-Jul-03 09:45 AM
Wow, very interesting.
knt (and Sitara if you please), can you please elaborate more on Duryodhana being the just guy and Yudhisthira being the opposite?
This whole Mahabharata, Ramayana and other Hindu mythologcial stories are fascinating, but I guess they could just be the accounts of the winners rather than fair historical description. Some quarters even believe that Rawan was the good guy while Ram was a rabblerousing invader. So, could these scriptures merely be winners writing their own history, and if so, to what extent?
Sitara, I'm impressed with the direction you were taking in your posting, but I did not quite get it. Mind explaining more?
Thanks.
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| Echoes |
Posted
on 13-Jul-03 10:05 AM
As the originator of this thread, I would like to request all participants to focus their opinions around the topic of this thread, so as not to let the main issue dissipate.
A new thread can easily be started for those who want to pursue a different topic.
Respectfully Yours,
Echoes
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 13-Jul-03 10:28 AM
Boke,
just a quick comment on duryodhana and rawan.
I totally agree with what you have to sya on we being unfair to these two. We forget that, every year during the dashain tika, we are blessed by our elders with a verse, which says:
aayu drona sute, shreyam pashupate..
MANAM CHA DURYODHANE
so, you have to have the self-respect and pride like Duryodhan. Duryodhan wasn't a bad guy, in my humble opinion. He was as good as the Pandav brothers, but the history wans't on his side. And this, I guess is an universal trait. Those who loose out are BAD and EVIL. Imagine if Hitler had emerged a victor. He would have been hailed as a Hero in our history books.. but, no.. he lost, and he is an evil. In Nepal, we read a lot about BadaMaharajadhiraj Prithvi Narayan Shah, he was a great leader, no doubts regarding that, but, we hardly learn about the Malla Kings such as Jayasthiti Malla and Ranajit Malla, because they or their dynasties were defeated.
Here's another fact for those of you interested: The oldest written copy of mahavarata was found in Nepal at the Bir Pustakalaya. The copy was taken by the Bhandarkar Research Institute, Pune to publicsh the original Mahavarata. The BRI published it, but we never got back our bahumulya kriti back.
Regarding Rawana:
Once I wrorte in this board that Ramayana is not more than 1500 years old. The text was written somewhere 1500-1700(maximum) years ago. Again, the victor got all the credits. Rawan, as far as I know, was a scientist and our scriptures give him the credit for inventing many things/plants. He is the one, who according to our mythology invented/developed the maize plant because he wanted to make somethingw hich could be eaten and worn.. so, amazing maize (corn).
Rawan was also working on making /devloping a ladder to heaven. You just climb the ladder and you would reach heaven. Also, Rawan wrote many wonderful poems dedicated to Lord Shiva in Sanskrit. The poem is called ShivaTandav Stotra , which describes teh Tandav Dance of Shiva. The poem remains one of my fav. sanksrit poems, which goes like this:
Om jata Tabi Gallla Jala Prabaha Pabita Sthale
Galeba Lambya Lambitam, Bhujanga Tunga Malikam..
Dama Dama Dama Damma Nninadawar Damarbayam.
Chakara Chanda Tandavam, Tanotu Na Shiva Shivam
la.. wrote this in a hurry.. will write morte.. ahilke lai yatti hai.. bhul chuk line dine..
namaste.. haattar bhayoooo
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 13-Jul-03 10:31 AM
Boke,
just a quick comment on duryodhana and rawan.
I totally agree with what you have to sya on we being unfair to these two. We forget that, every year during the dashain tika, we are blessed by our elders with a verse, which says:
aayu drona sute, shreyam pashupate..
MANAM CHA DURYODHANE
so, you have to have the self-respect and pride like Duryodhan. Duryodhan wasn't a bad guy, in my humble opinion. He was as good as the Pandav brothers, but the history wans't on his side. And this, I guess is an universal trait. Those who loose out are BAD and EVIL. Imagine if Hitler had emerged a victor. He would have been hailed as a Hero in our history books.. but, no.. he lost, and he is an evil. In Nepal, we read a lot about BadaMaharajadhiraj Prithvi Narayan Shah, he was a great leader, no doubts regarding that, but, we hardly learn about the Malla Kings such as Jayasthiti Malla and Ranajit Malla, because they or their dynasties were defeated.
Here's another fact for those of you interested: The oldest written copy of mahavarata was found in Nepal at the Bir Pustakalaya. The copy was taken by the Bhandarkar Research Institute, Pune to publicsh the original Mahavarata. The BRI published it, but we never got back our bahumulya kriti back.
Regarding Rawana:
Once I wrorte in this board that Ramayana is not more than 1500 years old. The text was written somewhere 1500-1700(maximum) years ago. Again, the victor got all the credits. Rawan, as far as I know, was a scientist and our scriptures give him the credit for inventing many things/plants. He is the one, who according to our mythology invented/developed the maize plant because he wanted to make somethingw hich could be eaten and worn.. so, amazing maize (corn).
Rawan was also working on making /devloping a ladder to heaven. You just climb the ladder and you would reach heaven. Also, Rawan wrote many wonderful poems dedicated to Lord Shiva in Sanskrit. The poem is called ShivaTandav Stotra , which describes teh Tandav Dance of Shiva. The poem remains one of my fav. sanksrit poems, which goes like this:
Om jata Tabi Gallla Jala Prabaha Pabita Sthale
Galeba Lambya Lambitam, Bhujanga Tunga Malikam..
Dama Dama Dama Damma Nninadawar Damarbayam.
Chakara Chanda Tandavam, Tanotu Na Shiva Shivam
la.. wrote this in a hurry.. will write morte.. ahilke lai yatti hai.. bhul chuk line dine..
namaste.. haattar bhayoooo
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| Boke |
Posted
on 13-Jul-03 02:05 PM
Good stuff, IF, pray continue. Also, what was reasoning behind your assertion that Ramayana is only 1500 years old?
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| knt |
Posted
on 13-Jul-03 04:25 PM
Hi there echoes ji,
"it clearly repudiates your earlier claim that the castes were effectively assigned by the three Hindu Gods and therefore, only they reserved rights to change the system."
No echoes ji, I have never claimed that God created the caste system. My claim is that such infantile and ludicrous ideas, like melting all races together to create one great race with no sub-species, are not pragmatic. In order to buttress my belief, I questioned the reason as to why God created many races instead of one. Now caste is a man-made invention, which has abetted in keeping different ethnic groups seperate and not commix. Also, I am very cognizant of the fact that most races(or castes) like to stick with their own kind. Now you might not agree with it, but what is the rate of interracial marriage in countries like the United States that espouse equality for every race, creed and gender?
"In one of your other posts on this topic, you have suggested that the essence of the caste system is, in part, a vocation based division of labor. Your more recent post contradicts it as you asserted..."
Actually, there is no contradiction at alll. I was merely pointing out the purpose of the caste system. As I mentioned before, it served two purposes: 1) endogamy and purity of bloodline and 2)division of labor. Now, these were past versions of the caste system. In the modern world, the same doctrine cannot be applied, since people are not oblivious to social injustice. However, that doesn't mean that I am not for preservation of culture, customs, and heritage.
"I strongly believe that human perception of color is learned, therefore the awareness of what a particular color signifies is also not a matter of natural instinct. "
Perception of color is not learned, but inborn because there are animals that can also differentiate between them. Even it is learned, it is a given that we come to favor and love the environment that we're brought up and raised in since that is the environment we grow up in. I have stated before that education can change intolerable treatment of dalits and people who occuply the lower ladder of the caste system, but the caste system cannot be vanquished so easily. In Pakistan, there are still people who identify themselves as Rajputs, and when looking for their mates, they compare gotras in order to corroborate that there is no mismatch or that they belong to the same clan. We should learn from this example(and there are a myriad others) that we cannot change something so deeply rooted in our community and our psyche. We can however uplift such people who have seen nothing but squalor and poverty. This is where I stand.
" It should suffice to say that this suggestion of yours does not take into consideration the fact that todays society is very unlike the one our ancestors belonged to, therefore, the social dynamics are rightly (some wrongly!) very different. "
Actually, I have taken that into consideration, and as I gave an example above of the vagaries of the remnants of the caste system in Pakistan. Of course, we cannot conform to every tenets that were written down by the sages, but we can preserve our heritage. This will indeed be the case because if you're thinking that everybody is going to cave in all of a sudden and start intermingling, then you are dead wrong. Such notions are quixotic at best, and impractical.
Also, to Boke, about Duryodhana and Yudhisthira, Duryodhana was for punishing all castes equally, but Yudhisthira was for punishing people commensurate with their castes. I guess looking at it from their perspective and time, Yudhisthira was being more fair, but to us, this is not acceptable, and Duryodhona's belief of punishing everyone equally seems to be more in sync with modernism.
And I agree with Isolated Freak that Rawana was an intellectual, even though he was made into a villain because he lost the war. Among the Avatars, I must say I find Rama to be the character I idolize.
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| Neta_ji |
Posted
on 13-Jul-03 04:34 PM
For thousands of years various ethnic groups lived in autonomous indigenous regions and these groups have lived side by side without the extent of the social turmoil and the vast social, political and economic disparity among themselves as we witness in the current period of Nepal between the so called ruling castes and the ruled castes After the subsequent defeat and dissolution of these autonomous regions and the forceful introduction of the Hindu cultural beliefs and ideals and 4-Tier Hindu hierarchical caste system of the Hindu Indo-Aryan race into the non-Hindu indigenous (and low-caste Hindus) since about 240 years ago is responsible for the chaos, unrest, anarchy and the civil war in the country.
Since the beginning of the creation of Nepal (as a state), the worst aspect of the history of Nepal is that there has been not been a single leader at the national level in the country till this date who could see far into the future and envision a creation of an integrated society of all with a system in place that could ensure fair and equal opportunity in the affairs of the nation to all castes and religion of the Nepali state by breaking down the 2 century old discriminatory caste based Hindu system that has proved to be disastrous for non-Bhramin/Chettri races.
Looking back into the historical facts and trends I dont find it is not necessary to continue Nepal as a united country. The argument is based on the historical and current facts that the Gorkhali invaders in 1760s did not have any agreements or peace treaties with any of these autonomous regions (which Gorkhalis conquered) which might have granted Gorkhalis the exclusive rights over these defeated regions and small states nor were these autonomous regions ever compensated for their loss land and their rights therefore it is very reasonable to argue that legally and logically the Gorkhali incursions into these autonomous regions and states are still illegitimate and the animosity has been further fueled. The victorious race did not see the different races as a integral components of new Nepali society and was not allowed to happen by the concerted effort of the ruling caste(s) and the state powers they held as a mean to continue the historical trend of keeping the state powers and the disproportionate share in the wealth, politics in the civil society.
Nepal had had never been a unified society to justify it as a unified country. Simply a unification (or incursion to be precise) of lands does not make it a country, its the collection and the proportional participation of groups of people of different races and religions into the national affairs that could have had made it a unified and stable nation. Unfortunately it did not happen. Politics, society and economics (and the proportional share in these) are the basis of formation and dissolution of creation and dissolution of any state(s) and it is very reasonable to seek for creation of state within the existing state and could be the only solution for the non-Bharim/Chettri group low-caste Hindu and of non-Hindu origins. Why are the people of the same ruling race suddenly appealing for national unity in the times of great difficulty in the country ?
No effort has been put to move into the direction that could narrow the gap of the vast social, economic and political disparity between the so called ruling castes and the ruled castes till this day therefore for the people on the dire side of the equation either do not have a sense of belonging to Nepal or the castes which suffered serious social, political and economic discrimination and marginalization will see revolt as best means to secure for their better future or way out of the misery.
Fueled by the caste inequality and the deep rooted attitude of supremacy in members of the ruling castes the state of Nepal may be headed for inevitable disintegration unless there is a dramatic change in the attitude of the ruling castes and the subsequent dramatic actions to mend the situation if not even though all the repressed groups may not revolt under Maoist umbrella or may not follow and agree the path of the Maoist they have learned to state a revolt from the Maoist. It is now the time for the ruling castes to make an environment that could defuse and (if not) control the extent of the impact by the use of political means.
The feeling of integration into national affairs (or compensation) is still the best solution to win the hearts and minds of every people of all races and religion can happen only when there an change of attitude and system in place that can ensure fair share into the work of nation building and for this to happen regional autonomy is still the only solution for the shake of fair and proportionate share and if they ever want to keep the territorial integrity of the present Nepali state IF NOT the non-Bhramin/Chettri and non-Hindu groups have right to choose their destiny since they dont carry much of Nepali nationalistic cause or a feeling. Based on calculation of the political, economic and social benefits they can acquire they can make choices on where they want to merge into or form an alliance with. To me, and to my race we lost everything to Nepali state and it is far better choice to seek for independence from the state of Nepal and make a different alliance or merge into. After all my race has always continued to keep the cultural heritage even outside the country and the region of origin of my race.
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| Bhunte |
Posted
on 13-Jul-03 04:50 PM
As Related to the post read it in kantipur font:
blnt;+u lax] ubf{ h+un k:g' k¥of]
6Lsf e§
dGynL . blnt;"u lax] u/]sf] cleof]udf ;dfh alxisf/ ePsf Ps o'js ufp"n]sf] ckdfg ;xg g;s]/ h+un k;]sf 5g\ . ufp" 5f8\g afWo ePkl5 cGt hfg] 7fp" gePsfn] dfcf]jfbL x'g'k/]sf] pgn] atfPsf 5g\ .
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afa'cfdfsf] ;]jf ug{ glbg] / ckdfg ;x]/ a:g'kg]{ cj:yfaf6 d'lQm kfpg /fdxl/n] s}of}+ af6f] /f]h] t/ ufp"n]n] afwf k'¥ofp"b} uP . &s;f] ubf{ klg a:g ;lsg", a'jfcfdfnfO{ 5f8]/ h+un hfg'k¥of],Ú pgL ljjztf ;'gfp"5g\ .
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| Neta_ji |
Posted
on 13-Jul-03 05:03 PM
In the matter of current ongoing chaos, unrest, anarchy and the civil in the country, the trace and the seed of the current chaos, unrest, anarchy and the civil war in the country it does not go back to just about seven and half years ago (or 1996), in fact it goes to the dates of birth of Nepal as a state . The victorious race (or side) which enforced the policy to rule, control, contain and dominate the defeated race (or side) by the use of force of state mechanisms and disregard the long vision of integration of the defeated race (or side) into the mainstream of society for the last 240 years or so soon after the birth of Nepal as a state for is the real cause for chaos, unrest, anarchy and the civil in the country. To me the ethnic (racial) revolt in Nepal has not even started yet which also means that the full extent of the chaos and anarchy is yet to come. Its still a period of accumulation of gunpowder (issues and causes leading to revolt) and Nepal as a country is merely a storehouse with ever accumulating deadly and very complicated mix of gunpowder . The so called Maoist have attempted to detonate that warehouse however despite the large participation of large number of indigenous groups in the Maoist revolt, the Maoist revolt itself is not an ethnic revolt therefore only a small part of the warehouse has been detonated. The ethnic revolt does not necessary need take place under any Communist principles or umbrellas and nor it is possible to stage racial revolt under some communist principles because all at least many of the people belonging to these ethnic groups do not or may not agree with the communists ideals. The most ridiculous agenda put forward by the Maoists is that they have continued to put the agenda of racial equality and their rights to social justice with ever increasing intensity. It is said that the Communist are racially color blind and as we witness that they do not ever include their surnames with their identity which makes it totally nonsense for the Maoists to put the racial agenda as one of their prime agendas. To me its merely a deceptive idea to involve more individuals from the repressed races into their organization. The foot soldiers who do the actual fighting are from these races while the leadership is almost exclusively made up of Bhramin/Chetteri caste(s). After all the Maoist too are not exempt form the racial demographics of the Nepali political, social and economic reality.
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| Echoes |
Posted
on 13-Jul-03 05:11 PM
For those of you who don't have Kantipur font to read Bhunte-ji's last post on this topic:
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| Bhunte |
Posted
on 13-Jul-03 05:43 PM
Echos ji,
Thanks a lot for your expertize...the news is as published in kantipur news few days ago...hope people will have some opinion on it.
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| Bhunte |
Posted
on 13-Jul-03 06:35 PM
Related to the thread, it reminds one my untold story about my childhood.
when i was a 5 year old kid, i was on my way to my shop from home with one Damai dai. he stopped to his relative's house and also took me with him in the kitchen. you know the village house where there r not enough ventilation and windows for inside day lightings, it was dark in the kitchen. he was offered 'raksi' with 'koirala fool ko achar'. damai dai asked me, 'baboo, timi achar khane?'. I still remeber the taste of achar--i know many of you must be mouth watering....eheheh There i didn't take 'raksi', but had cold water in 'kanch ko ankhoora ma'...
I think i was aware of the norms with scheduled castes. But I didn't tell to my family members i had eaten something in damai's house. had i told it to my family, definitely that damai dai would have been badly scolded by the community there.
ke mero jat gayo ta? would any one of you would barr me eating drinking together? ...eheheh hope you won't do any stupid to me.
let me recite Maha kabi Laxmi Prasad's poem:
"MANISA THULO DILA LE HUNCHHA, JATA LE HUNDAINA"
He is real mahan who gestured for a societal change then...
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| Bhunte |
Posted
on 19-Jul-03 02:18 PM
I urge the interested people to read about cast system in South Asia in the recent issue of National Geography (June 2003)...a very clear illustration there
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| Echoes |
Posted
on 20-Jul-03 08:23 AM
If you don't have access to a printed copy of the magazine Bhunte-ji mentioned, you can read that article online:
http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0306/feature1/index.html
Bhunte-ji, Thank you for this reference. I think it's a great article.
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| Junu |
Posted
on 20-Jul-03 11:28 AM
Untouchables in Nepal What is caste-based untouchability? . I am sure people who are confused about cast system,this article help you to understand.
http://www.hri.ca/partners/insec/Yb1993/Append_1.shtml
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| by |
Posted
on 20-Jul-03 09:22 PM
I can't help but wonder how much of a forceful statement King Gyanendra would've made in bringing down the walls of caste and ethnic differentiation had he given his daughter's hand to a Dalit, or for that matter, to a bahun, newar or any of janajaatis.
I raised this topic with couple of friends of mine - a Shah and a Malla(chettri) - and their response was that King need not make such progressive effort because he is not a political leader, which just made me laugh.
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