| Sajha.com Archives | |
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| ashu | Posted
on 14-Jun-03 07:55 PM
Senator Diane Feinstein's constituency -- the state of California -- is in a tizzy over Nepal's sending back Tibetan refugess to China. Feinstein is feeling the heat to do something about this. [Feinstein has many Tibetan friends in Kathmandu.] American friends tell me that a few days ago, Jeff Greenwald, a long-time Nepal visitor, added fuel to the fire by his article in San Francisco Chronicle, in which he pretty much started the "boycott Nepal" campaign. Whatever one thinks of Jeff and his writing, he has established himself as "the Nepal Expert" in the San Francisco Bay area, and his opinions are taken seriously by Californians who visit Nepal for the mountains, trekking, Buddhism and so forth. If you, Sajha folks, were in charge of, say, Nepal's "Crisis Management Department", how would you handle this boycott to push for Nepal's tourism? oohi ashu ktm,nepal ***************************************** Rights groups announce tourism boycott of Nepal By Ethical Traveler Jun 11, 2003, 06:50 Travelers Asked to Delay Trips Until Illegal Repatriation of Tibetan Refugees to China is Stopped Oakland, CA - A worldwide coalition of travelers today announced the first-ever tourism boycott of Nepal. This boycott comes in response to the illegal forced return of Tibetan refugees into the hands of Chinese authorities. California-based Ethical Traveler (www.ethicaltraveler.com) called the boycott .The group is an alliance of travelers formed to use the economic power of tourism to promote social and environmental change. The boycott is to remain in place until the government of Nepal promises to abide by international law in its treatment of international refugees. Major Tibetan rights groups rushing to support the boycott include: The Tibet Justice Center, Students for a Free Tibet, US Tibet Committee, and The Milarepa Fund. Organizers expect to win broad support for the boycott from travelers and travel outfitters. Ethical Traveler Director Jeff Greenwald explained, Travel and tourism is one of the worlds largest industries. As such, travelers have significant, but largely untapped, economic power. By supporting this boycott of Nepal, travelers can take a direct action to stop the repatriation of Tibetan refugees. The group of 21 Tibetans was detained by Nepalese authorities on April 15, as they made their way to the Tibetan Refugee Reception Center in Kathmandu. On May 31, three refugees, all young children, were handed over to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR). The other 18 were forcibly deported into China by Nepalese authorities. Previously, Nepal had generally been a safe haven for Tibetans fleeing Chinese oppression. Nepal and China have defended their actions, claiming they followed normal procedure in dealing with the refugees' "illegal actions." But the UNHRCs Nepal Commissioner expressed grave concern about the fate of the 18 asylum seekers, accusing Nepal's government of blatant violation of Nepals obligations under international law. The United Nations 1951 Refugee Convention states Certain provisions of the Convention are considered so fundamental that no reservations may be made to them. These include the definition of the term refugee, and the so-called principle of non-refoulement, i.e. that no Contracting State shall expel or return ( refouler ) a refugee, against his or her will, in any manner whatsoever, to a territory where he or she fears persecution. Updated information about the status of the Nepal tourism boycott is available at Ethicaltraveler.com. To arrange an interview with Ethical Travelers Executive Director Jeff Greenwald, please contact Michael McColl at +1 510 848 4500. About the Ethical Traveler: Ethical Traveler is the first grass-roots alliance uniting adventurers, tourists, travel agencies and outfitters everyone who loves to travel, and sees travel as a positive force in the world. We believe that travel is a viable (and long underestimated) form of diplomacy, and that individual travelers can be goodwill ambassadors: creating bonds of international trust and cultural understanding. We also believe that travelers have the ability to join our voices, and to use our vast economic power to support human rights and protect the environment. Contact: Michael McColl Director of Communications Ethical Traveler +1 (510) 848 4500 |
| ashu | Posted
on 14-Jun-03 08:01 PM
Jeff's article Strangers in a Strange Land Nepal's betrayal of Tibetan refugees Jeff Greenwald Thursday, June 5, 2003 ©2003 San Francisco Chronicle | Feedback URL: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/06/05/ED30846.DTL Last week, a posse of mountaineers and heads-of-state gathered in Kathmandu for the 50th anniversary of a great triumph: the first ascent of Mount Everest by Sir Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay Sherpa. It was an opportunity for the Kingdom of Nepal -- struggling to emerge from the shadows of political chaos and a Maoist insurgency -- to take pride in its history. In typical fashion, however, the Nepalese government fumbled. Just three days after the celebration, authorities committed a reprehensible act -- snatching disgrace from the hands of victory. The story began in April, when a group of 21 Tibetan refugees was arrested after fleeing their occupied homeland toward the traditional safety of Nepal. Since China's invasion of Tibet in the 1950s, thousands of Tibetans have crossed the Himalayas, seeking freedom in Nepal and India. It's an agonizing journey that can take months, hiding by day and attempting snowbound passes by night. But the reward is enormous: safe passage to thriving refugee communities in India, and a personal welcome from the Dalai Lama. These refugees were not so lucky. On May 31, 18 of the 21 were literally sold to Chinese authorities by the Nepalese government. (The other three, all younger than 10, were released into the custody of the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees). They were then shackled, loaded into a bus and driven back into occupied Tibet. The fate of these refugees will be impossible to monitor, but they assuredly face abuse, imprisonment and a lifetime of oppression. Nepalese officials claim that what they have done follows their customary procedure of treating each refugee case on its own merits. This is blatantly false. In the past, local Nepalese authorities have repatriated some Tibetan refugees in return for modest bribes from the Chinese. This situation is chillingly different. The refugees deported on Sunday had been unable to pay the modest "illegal entry" fines imposed by Nepal's immigration department. These fees are typically paid by human rights groups or private individuals. In this case, the Chinese stepped in first -- apparently buying back the prisoners, for a total of $1,713, according to the International Campaign for Tibet. There are at least 20,000 Tibetan refugees living in Nepal. Though the Nepalese have kowtowed to political and economic pressure from China in the past -- monitoring Tibetan freedom demonstrations and curbing some celebrations of the Dalai Lama's July 6 birthday -- this is the first time they have baldly repatriated innocent refugees into Chinese hands. Wangchuk Tsering, the Dalai Lama's representative in Kathmandu, expressed deep concern. "The way the Chinese and Nepalese authorities have been working on this case together is unprecedented, and makes us fear for the future of Tibetans in Nepal," he told the World Tibet News. "It indicates the level of Chinese influence in Nepal." Landlocked Nepal is in a delicate position with China, its powerful neighbor to the north. Nonetheless, its action violates a central principle of international refugee law. Established by international treaty following the deadly repatriations committed during World War II, the principle -- "non- refoulement" (i.e., "non return") -- obliges nations not to send refugees back to a place where their lives or freedom will be threatened. Nepal has ignored this convention, and its assertions to the contrary are not persuasive. What can we do? The Berkeley-based Tibet Justice Center (www.tibetjustice.org), along with Ethical Traveler, offer a suggestion: One of our most persuasive diplomatic weapons as individuals, though we rarely exploit it, is our ability to withhold our tourism dollars from oppressive regimes. A popular boycott of travel to Nepal will send a strong message to the kingdom's officials, who draw huge profits from climbing expedition and visa fees. This boycott must be maintained until Nepal issues an apology to the Tibetan community, and an assurance that such a shameful lapse in human decency will not occur again. It is ironic that this boycott should take place now, 50 years after runners carried word of Norgay and Hillary's monumental achievement from Everest Base Camp to Kathmandu. But the fate of 18 innocent refugees cannot be eclipsed by pomp and ceremony. It is crucial that we honor human virtue and courage in the best way possible -- by compelling Nepal's authorities to answer for their actions. Jeff Greenwald, the Oakland-based author of five travel books, is executive director of Ethical Traveler (www.ethicaltraveler.com). |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 14-Jun-03 08:35 PM
This is another spinal injury..... The bycott is another big punch to Nepali government, but i am not sure if our govt feels any pain from it. But what I am sure that most Americans are sympathtic to Tibetians. That may shake our tourism based economy. Crisis management? Probably one may want to counter publish another article citing the difficult geo-political situation of Nepal where it has to please both the big neighbor CHINA, and international communities as well. |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 14-Jun-03 08:38 PM
Further to add about crisis management, probably our friends with the expertize one Conflict Resoulation may be able to help in this issue.... |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 14-Jun-03 08:42 PM
Ashu, Not a good thing to happen at this point. But, Jeff is no saint either. Jeff has a tendency: he just thinks he knows everything. Looks like last year's Kailash trip is still having its after-effect on jeff's brain cells:-). Jeff, as your well-wisher, let me contradict you here and prove you wrong. Nepal did deport 18 Tibetans. Yes, no body is denying this. But, they were not refugees because tehre's no way to prove them refugees as there's no war going on in Tibet, no ethnic-fighting, no famine and they aren't even being forced to leave. This means, they were entering Nepal solely for economic or other purposes. And, this my friend gives us (The HMG) rights to deport them back to where they came from because OUR immigration laws apply, not of the UNHCR. Let me start a Boycott America campaign. America deports hundreds of Mexican and other refugees, who are by the way called illegal immigrants and are treated pretty badly. Also, at the Tijuana border area, there's a shoot-at-sight if any Mexican/s try to jump off those high walls and enter the US. Many mexicans have died trying toi jump those walls.. I will posta picture of a big board in which they have the names of Mexicans who died trying to come to the US either by the electric censors/current on those wall or by the bullets (that pic was taken from the Mexican side of the border). You might also want to look into the Cuban kid example: America forcibely deported that Kid back to Cuba. The evidence: The picture of a GI snatching that Kid from his uncle at Gun Point. Why, doesn't the Sentaor(s) rase this issue? Anyway, having studied the immigration that too from an Immigration officer in the US-San Diego border, I can say, America's immigration/border police is as bad as that of Nepal's. So, jeff, why not take a trip down to San Diego, and see for yourself how refugees/immigrants are TREATED in your own country, and then come to Nepal and see and write on how they are TREATED in Nepal. At least, we don't shoot any refugees in Nepal. Also, we don't have active dogs and Passive dogs, electric censors and road blocks and high walls to prevent people from entering Nepal like they have in the US. Go watch the Tijuana border and ask to see the incharge, and tell him that you are a journalist and he will give you a tour of the border and believe me you'll be surprised to know that your country that preacehes this and that, actually treats the refugees very badly so much so that they are treated like commodities by branding them..Don't believe me, go see it for yourself. Also, your country hides the deportions, we don't. We make them public. And remember, no governmnet publicly violates the International Law, except your's. namaste. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 14-Jun-03 08:47 PM
I don't think Jeff's article will have much effect on the general American public except some of the tree-hugging, peace-sign wearing, rangi-changi haired/clothed colorful kids of the Bay area. But, still its bad: we will be loosing 2000-3000 tourist a year, but hey, we have the conservative New Yorkers and uptight DCers to make up for the difference. Why not promote Nepal there? just a freaky thought. |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 14-Jun-03 08:52 PM
IF jyu, The immigration issue between US-Mexio is different with that of Tibet. There has been a gross violation of human rights for Tibetians by communist rulers. However, Mexicans have been seeking to get into US for employment opportunities. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 14-Jun-03 08:56 PM
Bhunte, prove it! There must have been certain flaws in the Chinese actions in the 50s, but not now. So, i don't believe that there's any human rights violations taking place in Tibet. Also, why double standard in branding people refugees? IF REFUGEES mean people fleeing their land for better economic or other oppurtunities, they they should be cosidered and treated as refugees everywhere, not as illegal immigrants. |
| mirador | Posted
on 14-Jun-03 09:22 PM
Somebody is still in the denial ! Look, China has been abusing human rights in Tibet for more than 50 years now. It reached genocidal proportion during Chairman Mao and the cultural revolution with hordes of Tibetans put in concentration camps. China was so keen on destroying the Tibetan culture that it torched more than 5000 monastries. Incidentally, some of them are being rebuilt right now as Chinese authorities realize how big a lucrative tourist destination Tibet can become. The Tibetans, dear reader, are still forbidden to practice their religion and language and any opposition to the chinese rulers, including calls for democratisation, will get you tortured and imprisoned. If you don't belive and have some money to spare, take a trip to Lhasa and verify it yourself. What Nepal did was break international laws regarding human rights, not a nice move since those 'tree-hugging' peaceniks are actually the people we have to count to support us through aid/loan/tourism/scholarships etc(which, if tricke-down econ works, will also help average Nepali.) Least Nepal can do is apologize to the international community, and the Tibetans, and promise to respect the treaties she has signed. Comparing Nepal to USA (with regards to breaking int. laws) is foolish. America is doing many illegal things forbidden by international laws but that doesn't mean we can or should do the same. |
| mirador | Posted
on 14-Jun-03 09:27 PM
>>So, i don't believe that there's any human rights violations taking place in Tibet Google china+tibet+human rights and you'll have plenty of evidence from all the human rights agencies that exist in our little blue planet. But of course, you won't believe them.....as I found out in some other thread...as the chinese saying goes, you can take a horse to a river but you can't force the horse to drink... |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 14-Jun-03 09:59 PM
IF jyu, I don't have to provide any hard proof, as the event itself speaks of whole truth. It was not necessary for the Chinese govt to take the repatriated Tibetians in thier motor inside Nepal's territory. Nepal govt could have escorted them up to the border, and from there they go home as usual as a normal citizen. What bothers me is about the fate of those refugee. Without any reason, the European Union, or Intl Commission for Refugee might not have expressed their dissatisfaction with nepali beaurocracy. No double standard at all. Repatriated mexican illegal immigrants are not prosecuted by their own government. I believe Tibetians are happy in their homeland, given they can freely practice their religion, culture, celebrate thier beliefs without opression. You must know 'ban ko chari ban mai ramaunchha'. |
| Satya | Posted
on 14-Jun-03 10:53 PM
First of all, we cannot and should not follow the US policy of Selective Intl Law. If we follow the international conventions then US leaders should be tried for war crimes. But who will hang the bell on cats neck? Isolated Freakji is again acting as a mouthpiece of Communist Party of China. Are you speaking your own mind or reading propaganda articles form Peoples Daily to brain wash us? While we could still argue on the status of the Tibetans forced to return and live under Chinese occupation we cannot ignore the human right situation in occupied Tibet. US is a violator of human rights does not mean that human rights violation by Chinese is excusable. |
| Prem Charo | Posted
on 14-Jun-03 11:12 PM
I agree with IF. Nepal's International law can't be different for Tibetans. If Our law makes them to leave our country, it doesen't matter if they are Tibetans or Bhutaneese or else. Law is law. Satya, "Isolated Freakji is again acting as a mouthpiece of Communist Party of China". What type of cheap comment is this ?? I am seeing that you always hit personally in other thread too. Sajha is not about personal langma. It is for healthy discussion and fun. Ashu, Thanks for sharing this type of subject matter with us. Prem Charo :) |
| MadMax | Posted
on 15-Jun-03 08:19 AM
This Freak Isolated is just another commie loving thug. What can you expect from him? |
| Prem Charo | Posted
on 15-Jun-03 08:27 AM
MadMax = Satya ???? |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 15-Jun-03 09:25 AM
Two cents from the tandoori pit: 1. Those folks who say there are human rights violations in China and Tibet should petition the White House to do a regime change in Beijing. After all, China is also known possess several dozen WMD (weapons of mass destruction). According to the Bush amendment to International Law, the US along with UK is entitled to do away with such regimes by military force. I am sure millions of Chinese and Tibetans will welcome their liberation from the cruel, inhuman, intolerant, undemocratic, uncivilized Chinese dictators. If you are really committed to Tibet's liberation, do it! 2. Greenwald, pick a fight with someone your size! You want Americans to boycott visitis to Nepal for sending back 18 Tibetans to Tibet. But under what moral logic are you doing billions of dollars worth of trade with China every year? Why don't you call for a boycott of Chinese goods in the US? That would really force the Chinese govt to treat the Tibetans properly! If you are really committed to Tibet's liberation, just do it! Otherwise this is all crap, I see this as sheer hypocracy. 3. Don't send back or detain thousands of Mexicans, Chinese, Haiti, Dominiq Republicans or Cuban boat people trying to come to this country to escape dictators and bad governance...shouldn't US also welcome them all? 4.IFji does have some valid points, I don't think it helps a rational debate by calling him a name like Chinese Communist. |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 15-Jun-03 09:26 AM
Two cents from the tandoori pit: 1. Those folks who say there are human rights violations in China and Tibet should petition the White House to do a regime change in Beijing. After all, China is also known possess several dozen WMD (weapons of mass destruction). According to the Bush amendment to International Law, the US along with UK is entitled to do away with such regimes by military force. I am sure millions of Chinese and Tibetans will welcome their liberation from the cruel, inhuman, intolerant, undemocratic, uncivilized Chinese dictators. If you are really committed to Tibet's liberation, do it! 2. Greenwald, pick a fight with someone your size! You want Americans to boycott visitis to Nepal for sending back 18 Tibetans to Tibet. But under what moral logic are you doing billions of dollars worth of trade with China every year? Why don't you call for a boycott of Chinese goods in the US? That would really force the Chinese govt to treat the Tibetans properly! If you are really committed to Tibet's liberation, just do it! Otherwise this is all crap, I see this as sheer hypocracy. 3. Don't send back or detain thousands of Mexicans, Chinese, Haiti, Dominiq Republicans or Cuban boat people trying to come to this country to escape dictators and bad governance...shouldn't US also welcome them all? 4.IFji does have some valid points, I don't think it helps a rational debate by calling him a name like Chinese Communist. |
| Satya | Posted
on 15-Jun-03 09:37 AM
Prem Charo ji, I see you are posting a lot in Sajha but it seems that you seldom read fellow Shajhabasis posts. Because MadMaxji supported my view on Isolated Freak ji you have concluded that we are the same person. How naive yoy are! I was personally "attacking" MadMaxji on the Iraq war issue. Your are also accusing me that I have attacking fellow Sajhabasis. I am not attacking IF in my previous post rather than telling the truth. If you talk with ordinary Chinese in public places you will hear only official versions as their own opinions because they are afraid to express their own views. Whatever they say is word by word from Peoples Daily, Xinhua and other official medias. Now the situation is better and you could hear their own opinions depending on the topics, situation and location. But IF ji is writing something we find only in official Chinese Communist propaganda materials. |
| Satya | Posted
on 15-Jun-03 09:42 AM
suva chintakji, I agree with you: Greenwald, pick a fight with someone your size! You want Americans to boycott visitis to Nepal for sending back 18 Tibetans to Tibet. But under what moral logic are you doing billions of dollars worth of trade with China every year? Why don't you call for a boycott of Chinese goods in the US? That would really force the Chinese govt to treat the Tibetans properly! If you are really committed to Tibet's liberation, just do it! Otherwise this is all crap, I see this as sheer hypocracy. |
| ashu | Posted
on 15-Jun-03 10:23 AM
I am amazed that you guys, especially IF, just don't get it. The target here is Jeff and NOT the US government and its various policies. A Nepal-unfriendly issue like this does NOT call for a debate over the finer points of international relations; it calls for "crisis management" skills on Nepal's part. I mean, sure, as debaters, it's tempting to destroy Jeff's logic; but that would be like winning the battle and losing the war. Here, as Nepalis, we want to win the war, and not get bogged down/sidelined in the battle. That's because the larger issue here is NOT whether Jeff has an air-tight logic for saying what he said. The larger issue is that: Through his article, Jeff has ALREADY done damage to Nepal's tourism industry. And it doesn't matter whether tree-huggers' not coming to Nepal will be somehow compensated by, say, Wall Street bankers' visiting Nepal. What matters is that, thanks to Jeff's article, we are losing a source of revenue. And that's gotta hurt, more so in these already troubled times. We have act fast. And the question is: How can we turn the situation around to MINIMIZE the damage caused by Jeff? If it were up to me, I would put on my lawyer's hat, and dash off a letter to editor based on these arguments: 1) use Jeff's this sentence to Nepal's advantage: "There are at least 20,000 Tibetan refugees living in Nepal." Argument for Nepal: For a resource-poor country like Nepal, you can't find a stronger evidence of her generosity toward the Tiibetans than the fact that at least 20,000 Tibetan refugees are living in Nepal. And for a country that is already experienced in hosting so many refugees and their children, could there NOT be a valid reason why Nepal, a sovereign nation that has to look out for her own interests, had to return those 18 Tibetans? 2) Jeff's entire source of information comes from International Campaign for Tibet. Argument for Nepal: Could Jeff back up his argument by citing a third, neutral source? International Campaign for Tibet will, of course, do anything to keep Tibet in the headlines, and it's not a fair source of info here. Jeff further makes mention of "human rights groups". But what groups are these? Names, please. And frankly, which human rights group anywhere pays "modest illegal entry fines" on behalf of so-called refugees? 3) Interview Wangchuk Tsering, the Dalai Lama's representative in Kathmandu (I mean, how difficult is it to find him here?), and see, in the presence of the Western media in Kathmandu, whether what he allegedly told Jeff holds up in further interviews. My suspicion is that WT would NOT want to sound ungrateful to Nepal, and all we need is his quote that softens the harshness created by Jeff's article. 4) Argue that Tibetans in Nepal run a number of tourism-related businesses (carpets, knick-knacks, etc) and that any drop in tourism directly hurts these Tibetans' well-being too . . . 5) End on a positive note .. say how Nepal remains a SARS-free country, and how we recently renovated Lumbini, the birthplace of Buddha, and so on and on. 6) Pacakge these argumements together, and send it off as a letter to editor to SF Chronicle. Nepal Tourism Board officials -- do you visit Sajha.com? oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 15-Jun-03 10:46 AM
well, ashu, my point is,grenwald is attacking Nepal for its policies and he has every rtights to do so, but, before that he should look into hgis own governmnet' s polices, hoina ta? anyways, jeff remains a good friend of my friend and my dad, so.. i can sort this with jeff in a personal kurakani when he visists (?) nepal next.. namaste. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 15-Jun-03 10:54 AM
also, let me thank ashu for raising some brilliant points to counter jeff's article. I am sending a letter to the editor to SF Chronilce. la ashu dai, matrix having its effect on me and i ma flying like neo. :-) namaste Satya: there's no point in replying to your dog and mouthpiece allegations. Sivachintak has good points. Premcharo, thanks for your kind words. namaste. officially out of this debate where everyone except the original poster is too occupied with his own beliefs. BTW: Can i borrow "how to manage myself" book from you? sounds like an intersting read at this time of transition. |
| Devil's advocate | Posted
on 15-Jun-03 10:59 AM
No offence but seriously wat i feel is "Free Tibet" is a begging bowl.I wonder how many Tibetans will go back from Europe and United States where they came through that "begging bowl" if Tibet was "freed".Show some gratitude Tibetan brothers,we never treated u wrong.I seriously mean show some fu....g gratitude,we let hundreds of thousands of Tibetans in and u guyz are dissin us infront of international community.Shame on you. |
| sewak | Posted
on 15-Jun-03 01:34 PM
Isolated Freak: Pls dont say tibetans are not suffering. Did you know that over one million Tibetans have been massacared in the last 50 yrs by Chinese. Now dont tell me you do not know anything about Tibetan and its history. For the last 1500 yrs, Nepal had a very close tie to Tibetan. Even Bhrikuti was married to Tibetan King. Then there is Arniko, stories like Munamadan and numerous Newari traders travelling for the last hundreds of years. Seems like all of the sudden it is forgotten. I am Sherpa from helambu. So I may have more sympathy towards Tibetan than you since I share same culture and religion. But I think we all are the victim of same corruption. I dont think it is done at ministerial label. I think those focked up Chinese bribed the SP or head of that police station. That is not the way to treat any human being. If you dont get the money you want, you throw those poor people to Chinese. And now the crisis has unfold. Such cheap is these people. I sympathize Tibetans. They came as a refugee. Those same refugees created Carpet industry which Nepal is known for. They introduce Nepal as a land of Buddha all over the world. Whatever money they get, they bring it back to Nepal to build monastry and train those children that do not get opportunities otherwise. We need to direct our anger towards our netas for they are the one who corrupted the whole system and corrupted all the gov't employees. It seems like effect of corruption was confine only within Nepal. Now we realize it has effected outside too. Being Nepali, I still pride myself of having such a diverse culture. I am proud to have a culture similar to Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism. |
| sewak | Posted
on 15-Jun-03 02:01 PM
Devil's advocate: Tibetans love Nepal and they are very thankful for that. They have also contributed in some ways for Nepal. Beside Tibet, there is no other country like Nepal for them. But it is wrong to say Tibetans are using Free Tibet as a begging bowl. I believe the issue is with those corrupt police and govt employees. Just for the sake of some money, they should not throw those poor refugees to Chinese authority. And that is not in the border. That is in Kathmandu police station. How could they do that? Have we lost our morale? That is not a way to treat Tibetans. I still think they are peace loving people like we are. We have a culture and tradition so similar that we should treat them with respect like we have done so for the last 1500 years. |
| lovaboy | Posted
on 15-Jun-03 06:16 PM
bad publicity is a good publicity... We should not procrastinate on Jeff's article. when the air cools down all the particle will settle on the ground. once nepal can get its S#$t together, people will flock to nepal with curiocity. If nepal can invest on infrastructures NOW, then i think we can create a sustainable "Nepal Brand" to sell to the world. however the choice is up to all the nepalis that give a crap obout nepal. I think after royal massacre, mao insurgency in nepal has gained quite a publicity all over the world. This will just add to the list. May be "tree huggers" will boycott.. .Guess what we don't want then anyways, coz after all they do not contribute much to our economy so be it. Nepal should stick to its policies, maintain its ties with China and market its products to alternative destinations and not bow down to typical US policy "my way or the high way." World needs to see how we have treated the OTHER 20,000 refuges and decide for themselves if they want to listen to Jeff boy in SFO. Nepal govt. should not defend itself from individuals like Jeff. If media wants to go to war with Jeff that's fine but the govt or the NTB (nepal tourism board) should not get involved in any shape or form to defend itself. If feinstein wants to pull out then let her do so. Lets invest focus on other markets where we don't have to beg! We seem to have overlooked the access to 3+ billion market next door... This tibet issue brings another topic. Would tibet and tibetans have so much sympaty as they do now if it were not supressed by the Chinese? Given that China offered Tibet as an independent state or country, would these tibets who are spread all over the world return to Tibet? Peace! |
| ashu | Posted
on 15-Jun-03 08:12 PM
>>>We seem to have overlooked the access to 3+ billion market next door... <<<< I spent the '80s, as a schoolboy in Nepal, memorizing that Nepal has a great potential in hydropower. Now, mature and wiser, I am beginning to understand: for a country with a never-ending high potential in hydropower, why on earth do we in Nepal continute to pay -- indeed -- some of the world's most expensive bijuli rates? Likewise, the present generation of Nepali schoolchildren will no doubt be told about our potential to enter that 3-billion-strong market. 15 years later, they too will wonder whatever happened to all that potential. [Already, to give you one example, in border towns of Nepal, Nepalis use Indian mobile phones because -- thanks to deregulation and competittion in India -- the mobile-phone rates in India are a lot cheaper than in Nepal, where the 'white elephant' NTC rules the roost.] My point is this: In Nepal, we have this national habit of mistaking promise for delivery, and thinking that potential leads to actions. Let's get over this habit which does us no good. Jeff's point needs to be countered -- NOT defensively, NOT too with excuses, NOT too with bitterness and anger, but with confidence, optimism and strategic points, all of which we should start to muster aplenty. I mean, what are we afraid of? This way, next time Jeff or someone like him writes something like that, they will think twice, and that will be a good thing indeed. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| GurL_Interrupted | Posted
on 15-Jun-03 08:35 PM
If I was the Nepali government (metamorphically) I would apologize for my im-moralness and in-humanness. Jeff raised an issue that nepali officials take bribery to keep or deport the refugees. I am not surprised! So, before anybody goes yapping 'bout all the good deeds they have done, it will be advisable if they can do some research on the statement r/t bribery. What if it turns out to be true...than what? How inhumane it is to take advantage of the helpless refugee? Isn't the bribery horded from other sources enough??? I wonder how would they feel if someday Nepal is to go through the same torture by China...and they have to flee the country seeking refuge in India...and than India sells them back to china. Have you given a thought how devastating it is fon the individual? I am sure if the officials are clever enough to take bribery and sell the helpless individuals who came to them w/ a hope, to the brutal hands, they are clever enough to think about the consequences beforehand. Now why don't they face the consequences! or apologize for their inhumanness. I am glad Jeff used his voice for the oppressed and I hope he will continue to be a voice in the future also. (You can hate me for that...you are more than welcome!) I am saddened to read how some of us have so easily placed our own interests before someone else in need. And here we are not just talking about need but a very deep need. How sad. |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 15-Jun-03 10:24 PM
I am happy that Ashu revealed bitter truth about Nepal giving few spcific examples like: _______________________ 1) I spent the '80s, as a schoolboy in Nepal, memorizing that Nepal has a great potential in hydropower. Now, mature and wiser, I am beginning to understand: for a country with a never-ending high potential in hydropower, why on earth do we in Nepal continute to pay -- indeed -- some of the world's most expensive bijuli rates? 2) [Already, to give you one example, in border towns of Nepal, Nepalis use Indian mobile phones because -- thanks to deregulation and competittion in India -- the mobile-phone rates in India are a lot cheaper than in Nepal, where the 'white elephant' NTC rules the roost.] 3) In Nepal, we have this national habit of mistaking promise for delivery, and thinking that potential leads to actions. ______________________ For all these to change require sound public policies, a complete overhaul of different systems at work, and a visionary leader like the person who guided the present Singapore... The way NTC charges for a local call is really a *Shit*. Heard that the bill starts ticking minute by minute after the first 2 or 3 minutes, like an international call. How can one expect the educated nepali youths in western countries to work there in this kind of environemnt? |
| lovaboy | Posted
on 16-Jun-03 12:10 AM
hi ashu, definitely some good points and I completely agree with your portion on "delivery." We might not have been able to delivery as we would like but i think the process of delivery has been taking place in some micro level at its own pace. One thing I have seen in Nepal is more and more % of the 3 billion people from the north and the south have increasingly participating in our economy. In the past few years nepali entreprenuers are finding better markets for handicrafts in China. on the other hand, for tourism industry growing number of middleclass indians have been dumping their liquid funds to our economy. They are the ones staying in 5 star hotels, going to casino, buying knock of items from bishal bazaar. So I don't think we can discredit this population. These particular sectors have been able to deliver more than what our hydro promised and we cannot ignore that.. taking things personally... As a nepali we have this habit of taking thing too personallly if an indian actor goes out on public and tells the world he dislikes nepal we shut down our country in protests and burn our own infrastructure. if somebody were to say, " is nepal in india" we would flare like an never ending volcano. we tend to take things too personally than we should... I think we need to realize that interms of geographic and cultural resources we are truly a blessed nation and we are selling ourselves short. going back to the issue...finally :-) Every dick and harry in the world is looking for few seconds of fame. Does this mean everytime a journalist or an opportunist who want to come into a lime light says something about nepal we need to defend ourselves? I will leave this up to you to answer. Feinstien on the other hand is in limbo may be for her own personal reasons. She has her friends who have close to 100 million dollar investment in some so called hyrdo project.? May be portion of that dough funds her campaign money.. who knows.. Whatever her or jeff's reason may be what younger genaration like us need to understand is we shall not run after all the crows that sing the blues. We should have pride among ourselves and do what we are doing best...lets focus our energy on things that are not right or things that need time and resouces to so that we can "DELIVER." Nepal govt. shall never never say "opps I did it again i am sorry" The garment industry might suffer as a result of it. However, may be this is an opportunity for entreprenuers to re invent themselves to a different market place. I see the $100+ million garment industry as a begging market. We are always begging for quota... the way to compete is not by begging but by creating value added products that creates a need for a consumption. why not expand our horizons and create new markets? |
| ashu | Posted
on 16-Jun-03 04:50 AM
>>>>We should have pride among ourselves and do what we are doing best...<<<< On the contrary, my impression is that we in Nepal have way too much pride, much of it hollow, and we could do better with a solid dose of humility and more open-mindedness. Collectively, our egos are gigantic, and our skill-sets/abilities are narrow, and we are defensive to the hilt all the time. Anger comes very quickly to us. That is why, just as in that "Ritik Roshan case", we take offence quickly without understanding the larger contexts of issues, and, once, our blood boils, prefer to win battles (in the short-run) even if that means losing the more important war in the long-run. As the latest Nepali Times editorial puts it: "Compromise, give-and-take, trade-off, middle-ground, reconciliation, reform, national interest, common good: none of those words exist in our . . . lexicon." Again, people like Jeff have already done the damage. Unlike in Nepal, in the US, op-ed pieces are taken seriously by those who read them. This is a fact. Given that reality, we in Nepal can either: a) behave like an ostrich, and say that Jeff is a chor, his government is khattam itself and that his writing will not affect our tourism industry at all. Or, b) accept that Jeff has done some damage, and that it's up to us to make the case for Nepal ourselves to MINIMIZE any negative effects coming out of Jeff's article. Personally, I prefer the option B. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| JhismiseBihani | Posted
on 16-Jun-03 07:22 AM
Ashu, "...On the contrary, my impression is that we in Nepal have way too much pride, much of it hollow, and we could do better with a solid dose of humility and more open-mindedness. Collectively, our egos are gigantic, and our skill-sets/abilities are narrow, and we are defensive to the hilt all the time. Anger comes very quickly to us..." I totally agree. This is something which has become a very disappointing characteristic of Nepalese, especially the youth (and I fall in that category myself) and I have been wondering for a long time where did we go wrong? or continue to go wrong? Are we not taught basic human civilityor discipline at home or school, especially at home? Anger is good when it is for a valid reason or reasons but where does this distructive anger in us come from? Lack of guidance from our elders? After hearing the American politicians say "...for our childern..." in their speeces all the time, I am wondering what has the generations before us left for us? and how is my generation going to raise our children? I think the generation of our parents is one of the most saddest generations in the history of our country. Can anyone name one remarkable achievement in Nepal in the last couple of decades or so? JB |
| Bond-007 | Posted
on 16-Jun-03 07:36 AM
Ashu, -----------On the contrary, my impression is that we in Nepal have way too much pride, much of it hollow, and we could do better with a solid dose of humility and more open-mindedness. Collectively, our egos are gigantic, and our skill-sets/abilities are narrow, and we are defensive to the hilt all the time. Anger comes very quickly to us--------------- Bravo! You stole words from my mouth!! Couldn't agree more!!! |
| sewak | Posted
on 16-Jun-03 07:51 AM
I share your view. Our business community in Nepal tend of pursue irrelevant things instead of creating a vlue to the business by innovation. pashmina is classic example. It is a very good product with lots of potential. But look at what we did. made same stuff again and again and overflood the market. The market did not even last for more than 3 yrs. How sad is it? Same thing goes for carpets, snooker club, casinos, dance clubs. If someone does it, we all have to do the same thing. In KTM, we have a strange habit of following what other does without innovating ourselves. I think that is wrong. We possess lot of opportunities in Nepal. Sad thing is when we need help from the top, they are busy with their stuffs. |
| lovaboy | Posted
on 16-Jun-03 09:36 AM
>>>>We should have pride among ourselves and do WHAT WE ARE DOING...<<<< Ashu i think you are mistaken with the particular line above. I hate to say this but i think it is a very typical example of generalization. I don't know about the rest of the coutnry but even an individual like your self or myself who are promoters of nepal's infrastructure should pride ourselves on our coommitment. or am i msitaken..we could have sold ourselves to the western world..but we are choosing to be part of nepal and being hopefully optimistic to bring some changes in most unique ways possible..isn't that why we are having this discussion?? I am not talking about our jhilke topi or our sky touching mountains or even tenzing or potential hydor for the matter :-)... I am talking about individuals like you and me, regardless of so much going wrong for Nepal still being hopeful and chugging along it as an INDIVIDUAL... So if this is not pride worthy then what is. yup i agree that jeff has done some damage but shall we procrastinate? That is my question. Yes we shall argue but not at govt level but via third party media. We can not go out and argue every person that has a voice against our policy. If things are not going right then we need to make it right.. that is why folks like you and me are in Nepal to set things right. may be we will not be able to change the entire policy, but we can be a catalyst or even change one or two mindsets versus the 20 million population of nepal. since you are among third party journalist for Nepal times magazine and you already have an audience why not give your "opinion" not statement about this issue. I would love to pass that around to people in my network. This would be a better approach than to have our legal organization dealing with these type of issue. just a thought.. :-) sewak.. "Our business community in Nepal tend of pursue irrelevant things instead of creating a vlue to the business by innovation. pashmina is classic example." I don't think we can undermine the entreprenuerism of Nepali business houses. Remember that Ktm was involved in intl. trade long before wall street existed. Due to lack of sound economy policies, brain drain and lack of infrastructure we have not been able to create a sustainable market but i would not count innovation out of the formula. Pashmina died coz its a fashion item...fashion trends continually change and needs continuous reinvention...unfortunately it happened to be a product that was famous for shawls and how many damn' different kinds of shawls one can produce... however its a cyclical business...last time it was famous was in late 70s and again it will be there for consumption in next 10-15 yrs.. Competiion and copying is not only a common name in nepal but in business too.. shall i talk about dot com bust in the US just a few years ago or hundreds and thousands of automobile companies when automobile industry was just introduced. Everybody is looking for the next hot product. Talking about the nepalese business community as a copy cat does not do a justice to our economy... even in the US how many freaking kinds of cereals you can choose from, how many kinds of toilet paper you can choose from.. its not the innovation that we have not been able to create sustainable market its the mgmnt which is an entire different topic. Peace ! |
| mirador | Posted
on 16-Jun-03 04:37 PM
>>On the contrary, my impression is that we in Nepal have way too much pride, much of >>it hollow, and we could do better with a solid dose of humility and more >>open-mindedness. >>Collectively, our egos are gigantic, and our skill-sets/abilities are narrow, and we are >>defensive to the hilt all the time. Anger comes very quickly to us. Such prejudiced generalizations! I could say the same thing (or the opposite) for Americans/Japanese/French/Pakistanis/....any citizens of any country. My Nepali and non-Nepali friends tell me that Nepalis are the most humble/patient/friendly/compassionate (add more adjectives at your will here) people in the world. Neither you nor they are right. We, like others , are a mix of different people with different traits. |
| bewakoof | Posted
on 17-Jun-03 12:33 PM
Looking at most of the postings here, I see that Fienstien and Greenwald has managed to elicit the typical reaction among Nepalis .... i.e., more reactionary and less productive. Many have embarked on a knee-jerk US bashing. US policies may well be inconsistent, opportunistic and selective, but how does getting all mad about that help us with the issue at hand? Here is my take on how Nepal should handle this issue and launch public relations campaign in the US: Nepal is a poor and small country that has limited ability to fend off pressure from its much larger neighbor China. Nepal cannot actively oppose and go against China on the Tibet issue no matter how much it may desire to do so. It is out of geo-political compulsions that we have to bend a little to China from time to time. Nepal inherently has no interest or desire in anti-Tibet policy. By punishing Nepal, US will only make Nepal weaker and more dependent on China. Weaker Nepal will be even more susceptible to Chinese pressure on the Tibet issue. Hence by punishing Nepal, the friends of Tibet will mistakenly make the situation worse for Tibetans. In fact the way to help Tibet is by making Nepal stronger and more resistant to Chinese pressure. Nepal has always been a tacit escape route for Tibetans. Helping Nepal is helping Tibet. Tourism boycott and trade impediments against Nepal are actually counter-productive to the Tibet-cause. |
| hyaterica | Posted
on 17-Jun-03 02:08 PM
Mirador, I will have to disagree with you on that one. The Hrithik Roshan kanda is a good example of what/who we are. |
| mirador | Posted
on 17-Jun-03 02:20 PM
Bewakoof and hysteria! That's a nice combo. |
| JhismiseBihani | Posted
on 17-Jun-03 02:28 PM
Hritik Roshan, Bandhs with obligatory vehicle smashing, concerts with obligatory fights between overjealous gangs( group of guys).... i am sick of it all... |
| sewak | Posted
on 17-Jun-03 02:31 PM
I agree what BEWA has to say. Nepal Boycott is not the solution for those Tibet Supporters either. They have to understand the situation. Nepal has offered a lot in the past and continue to be imporant in all aspect for Tibetans. They should appreciate what Nepal has done so far. A fact that some of the holiest places for Tibetan Buddhist are in KTM and its surroounding area. For generations unknown Tibetans and Nepali both have visited both countries on pilgrimeges. However we should not forget them just because they lost their independence. I believe ignoring old friends in time of need is not good. In fact we should take advantage of the moment. No other country resembles Tibet more than Nepal. We share so much similarities. Anything related to Tibetan issue is popular in the West and we should take advantage of that. |
| sewak | Posted
on 17-Jun-03 02:33 PM
I agree what BEWA has to say. Nepal Boycott is not the solution for those Tibet Supporters either. They have to understand the situation. Nepal has offered a lot in the past and continue to be imporant in all aspect for Tibetans. They should appreciate what Nepal has done so far. A fact that some of the holiest places for Tibetan Buddhist are in KTM and its surroounding area. For generations unknown Tibetans and Nepali both have visited both countries on pilgrimeges. However we should not forget them just because they lost their independence. I believe ignoring old friends in time of need is not good. In fact we should take advantage of the moment. No other country resembles Tibet more than Nepal. We share so much similarities. Anything related to Tibetan issue is popular in the West and we should take advantage of that. |
| whine and chij | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 09:46 AM
Dear Mister Raja: Don't you be my "Nay", boor. And, if you can take your break from shopping for buddhus, please stop your dogma from droppin' on my lawn. Yawn, Chij-ji Babu |
| robin | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 10:14 AM
I worked with Tibetan for over 7 years. I am from bouddha. Honestly, most of them do not care for nepal. Most are great in bribing, they have tons of money compared to poor nepalis. They are the ones who tought nepalis on taking bribe (and the marwaris now). Most marry sherpa just to get "green card" only if they have to. They look down at sherpas. Yes, they think sherpas are inferior. I am sure I will get flamed for saying this but this is the truth. I hope some sherpa come forth and say this truth in this forum. About tibetans investing in Nepal. You must have your data outdated, most of the tibetans are now gone from nepal, they just used nepal as a spring-board, most are now in the US. Have you been to the US embassy lately ? they get special treatment/interpertor, no need to wait on line for 5 hours like we regular nepalis, bahun, chetri, newar, SETAMAGURALI !! All you need to do is act dumb and even though most can speak nepali and english good enough for a 2-way dialogue, just keep quit and occasionally smile and keep on with prayer beeds. so...., we let them in, we gave them food, land, and now, we deported 18 becoz we had to, this is what we get ?? What about those thousands that we let in ?? tibetans are one of the most manipulative and smart ppl I have seen, there is a saying "mareko madhise le jyudo nepali khancha" but behind that sly and quite face of tibetan, they have lots of hatred, fear and distrust for nepalis, they are more dangerous. They are very communal, they do not mix with other nepalis. Talk to any tamang from the bouddha area if you do not believe me. I do feel bad for them that they do not have tibet, sorta like palestinians but I am not gong ho about them like the media , hollywood. Think about this, if they were not rich and have good contact with lobbyist, why would they get so much support from US / europe ?? What about bhutanese refugees ?? Does anybody care about them ? If they are that patriotic, they should go back and fight, not use nepal and put them in trouble. Nepal can not afford to get china angry, just a plain fact. Even your bushy bush is scared of china and so is the world. If you want to reply, dont just be abusive, use your brain and put in facts, not sentiments and anger only. -Robin |
| sewak | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 01:01 PM
Robin: You and I may have different back ground. So I respect your opinion. Here's what I feel. My uncle worked with Tibetans during the high time of carpet industry. He supplied carpets to Tibetan Exporter and made money comparitively to the economy of Nepal and so did everyone involved at that time. I believe everyone made money because like others he took risk and was successful. If Tibetans make money doing good business, I dont think there is any problem. My uncle had 300 people working at that time. It is much less now. There are many people from our village (Tarke Gyang, Sherma Thang) and surrounding who have joined monsatries in Boudha. Had it not been for Tibetan, there would not have been many monastries in Kathmandu. Most of the children who become monks are from poor family and most of them are either Sherpa, Gurung, Tamang or manange. A teacher ( Rinpochen) go to west to preach dharma, get donations and build monastries in Nepal. Even if Tibetans are living in the US, they are still buying thankas, statues, carpets, pashmina from Nepal. I think that is good for the nation and economy. It may not employ a lot, but it is a contribution in some way. But what do Indians do in our country? They smile, set up businesses, make deals with banks & hakims and bankrupt the whole country. Which one would you prefer? Indian or Tibetan. I would choose the later one. At least this is what I feel about them. Again my experience may be different from yours. |