| Sajha.com Archives | |
| Username | Post |
| tabasco | Posted
on 17-Jun-03 08:56 PM
A United States Senator, Dianne Feinstein, has officially back-tracked a Nepal-related bill, that aimed at providing quota and duty free penetration of Nepali garments in the US market, The Kathmandu Post reported Wednesday. A personal website of the senator said, Nepal's act of extraditing 18 Tibetans back to China on May 31 was the prime cause behind the bill's withdrawal from the US Congress. Nepal said illegal entrance of the eighteen to its territory was the reason behind their deportation. Only on Monday, Premier Surya Bahadur Thapa had urged Feinstein not to withdraw the proposed legislation. The bill had suggested duty free access to Nepali garments for a period of two years starting October 1, 2003. nepalnews.com mr June 18 |
| maximum20 | Posted
on 17-Jun-03 09:12 PM
I'll have to say i'm not particularly surprised. when i first heard about the bill being proposed, it did sounded very promising and it sounded like Senator Feinstein was so concerned about nepal and its poor people. This recent move should teach us Nepalis that most (i'd say 90%) of the "favors" we get from rich countries are thrown on us so that they can impose their policies. |
| babaal | Posted
on 17-Jun-03 09:14 PM
Now that's what I call an attitude! |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 17-Jun-03 11:05 PM
Withdrawal of the bill reflects how grave the situation in Nepal is....Do you think this will open the eyes of Nepali beaurocracts/govt? I don't think so. Nepal has not gone through any crisis yet for it to change. The article about the bycott of Nepal tourism by one of American scholar isn't so bad if one thinks of it as a yellow card. |
| ashu | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 05:41 AM
When some of our Sajha friends were busy sending "thank you" messages to Senator Feinstein earlier this year, I cautioned them not to go overboard with their enthusiasm. From a point of crafting a winnable strategy (and winning or getting what you want is all that matters on matters like this), I urged those Nepali friends -- right here on Sajha -- instead to spend resources (i.e. write, lobby, call, whatever) to win over members of the all-too-powerful Senate Finance Committee. Thanking Senator Feinstein was good. But influencing the Senate Finance Commitee was a lot more important. Anyway, from my reading of the situation -- partially based on info supplied by a former classmate who now works at the Capitol Hill, here's what appears to have happened. [Please note that the following interpretations are mine alone, and could well be wrong.] Exhibit A: Senator Feinstein realized in late April/early May that her colleagues on the Senate Finance Commitee were NOT going to be favorable to the Nepal-garment bill. Her staff's attitude was: Why push for something past the Finance Committee when you know that you are not going to get what you want? Exhibit B: Senator Feinstein's office started looking for a graceful exit from the Nepal garment-bill by late May. Exhibit C: By deporting those 18 Tibetans, Nepali officials unwittingly handed the perfect face-saving opportunity to Senator Feinstein's office. And she pounced on it. California and especially San Francisco, Senator Feinstein's constituency, remain big-time Tibet fans, and Senator Feinstein could frame her dumping-the-bill argument in terms of not being able to alienate even a segment of her own voters. Result: The garment bill, which was never really strong to begin with (see my earlier Sajha postings), was unceremoniously dropped. All Senator Feinstein could say was, "Sorry!" Reaction in Nepal: Shocked and in denial, the Garment Association of Nepal (GAN) and others in Nepal want Senator Feinstein to reconsider and revive the bill. [This is like, pardon my metaphor, begging the lover who has just rejected you to come back to you!]. She can't and she won't, and that's life . . . get used to it. Immediate strategy: Let GAN retrace the steps, and see what the where's, the how's, and the what's of this lobbying was. Even when this particular lobbying has failed, let's distill clear lessons for the future. After all, the tragedy is NOT that Senator Feinstein decided not to back the bill. The tragedy will be if we in Nepal learn nothing from this, and leave ourselves all the more ill-prepared when dealing with similar situations in the future. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| TENZIN | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 06:49 AM
I AM GLAD FOR THE ACTION BY THE SENATOR. I HOPE THIS WILL WAKE ALL CONCERN PEOPLE IN THE GOVERNMENT LEVEL AS WELL AS PEOPLE. |
| boston_dude | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 07:22 AM
Kudos to Senator Feinstein! Nepal got what it deserves. If Nepal does not follow international laws and norms, then it certainly does not deserve any foreign favors. Maybe we'll learn a lesson from it. But then, who am I kidding? B_D. |
| Bond-007 | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 07:54 AM
-----------Exhibit B: Senator Feinstein's office started looking for a graceful exit from the Nepal garment-bill by late May---------------- I will bet on this!! I can also bet on the fact that more than half of the senators have never heard of Nepal, and among those who have herd of her they think Osama Bin Laden is from this country, therefore from the very beginning chances of passing this bill was 0%. Nice face saving job Senator Feinstein!! |
| mirador | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 03:30 PM
Ashu, Let's go back before the 'Exhibit A'. Do you know why the senator was proposing the bill in the first place? And why the Senate Finanace Committee was was going to reject it? Or is it just specualation to mute the pain -'oh it was not going to be passed anyway!'? It seems plausible to me that Senator retracted the bill because Nepal broke international law which the majority in her constituency respect. King Gyanendra's government broke that law and Nepalis got punished for it. It was a bad move on the Senator's part punishing a Nepali industry for the action of an unelected government. What is even worse is the fact that the King's government broke an international law which we had ratified. There was not even any protest from within Nepal. On the contrary, there were some posters in Sajha, Isolated Freak et al, who were openly supporting the government's action using the same justifications as used by the PRC. As far as I know, Nepal had been handing over Tibetan Refugees to UNHCR in Kathmandu until now and the policy had been working well. There was no need to change that provision and bring the wrath of international community upon us. Especially since we have our own refugee problems that we wish the world would focus on. Therefore, the blame, ultimately, lies on King Gyanendra's government. That said, lets look at the brighter side, at least there will be fewer sweatshops. Maybe there are other things we can compete at without 'preferential' bills working for us. Maui-wowies, which we are very good at producing, are very popular in San Franscisco. |
| ashu | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 06:38 PM
Well, Mirador, to parpahrase that French-mouthing character in Matrix Reloaded, "every action has a reaction; every cause has an effect." You seem to think that Nepal's breaking some international law was a plausible reason for Senator to backtrack on the bill, and you blame the king for this, even while you acknowledge that "It was a bad move on the Senator's part punishing a Nepali industry for the action of an unelected government." Fine. Have it your way. I think that Nepal's actions gave the Senator a perfect face-saving excuse to make an exit, and that's all right. Obviously, she can't put her own voters' concerns ahead of those of some other country. And that's fair enough. If I am not mistaken, the all-too-powerful Senate Finance Commitee had rejected such a proposal from Bangladesh last year. Pressed to the point, if I were to blame anyone, I'd bame Jeff Greenwald for blowing things out of proportion to push his own company "Ethical Traveller" to the limelight, and he has done that quite successfully . . . at bumbling Nepal's expense. Thanks, Jeff. Finally, why is Washington DC teeming with lobbyists with money to burn? These lobbyists are there to influence the members of Congress to vote this way or that way as per the interests of the lobbyists' clients. Just who was Nepal's lobbyists? No one. Feinstein's staff could not run around preparing dockets of info on Nepal and Nepali garment sector to persuade other Senators to take the bill seriously. As the luscious Monica Belucci put it, again in Matrix Reloade: "Cause and effect, my dear". oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| maximum20 | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 07:22 PM
that's a very interesting viewpoint, ashu; and it makes total sense to me. someone said >>If Nepal does not follow international laws and norms, then it certainly does not deserve any foreign favors. senator feinstien claimed to be helping out the poor nepali people who would benefit if that bill was passed. If you start punishing those poor people for the actions of an illegitimate government (the question of the move's justifiability still remains) then people with brains should be able to see that it was just one tacky trick. people should get over labelling everything within nepal as "Nepal". you can't say "Nepal" got deprived of the possible positive bias because of "Nepal's" moves regarding the refugees and "Nepal" should learn from it. |
| mirador | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 07:47 PM
Ashu, Perhaps you are right. Perhaps the senator never intended to put forward the bill. Perhaps the bill was never going to be passed anyway because we don't have a strong lobby. I don't have insiders in Capitol hill. I don't know. All I know is the stated reason Feisntein gave for withdrawing the bill. But that still does not make Nepal's action right. Sure the punishment does not fit the crime but the Nepali government did break an international law. Anybody who believes in human rights should acknowledge that. As important as it may be to have lobbies in Washington pushing our interests, it is also important that we respect human rights, of our own people and of refugees because we have an obligation to do so. You are ignoring senator Feinstein's charge instead of discussing their validity. |
| ashu | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 08:22 PM
Mirador wrote: "Perhaps the senator never intended to put forward the bill." I think the Senator did indeed intend to put forward the bill. I don't doubt that. [Senator and her husband Richard Blum have been to Nepal a number of times, and are good friends with Kathmandu's uber-elites.] I think it's just that as time went on, Senator realized -- what with a conservative Finance Committee, Nepal's own bumblng actions and lack of lobbying efforts, and angry voters in San Francisco -- that politically the costs of being a an advocate for Nepali garment sector at Capitol Hill were starting to outweigh any benefits to her political career. She decided not to take any chances with her political career. So, she decided to drop the bill, say "sorry" to Nepal, and move on. But we Nepalis in Nepal are shocked and are in total denial. We are asking: how can the Senator do this to us, and are now spending a lot of efforts to have her reconsider her decision. We are, alas, very good at fighting belatedly, that too for lost causes. But. hey, we'll wise up and learn. That's the hope, anyway. Again, to quote the Wachowski brothers: "Everything happens for a reason." oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 10:04 PM
But that still does not make Nepal's action right. Sure the punishment does not fit the crime but the Nepali government did break an international law. Anybody who believes in human rights should acknowledge that. As important as it may be to have lobbies in Washington pushing our interests, it is also important that we respect human rights, of our own people and of refugees because we have an obligation to do so. Nepal did NOT BREAK any INTERNATIONAL LAW by deporting the 18 illegal Chinese immigrants of Tibetan origin. Period. By the way, how many of us here who scream our throats off have read and understood even the simplified and mini version of the International law? Namaste. Senator retracted, but what's the big deal? Look at our governmnet, it apologized to the senator. That's what's hurting really. Surya Bahadur Thapa wrote a letter to the senator saying that "nepal will not repeat such mistakes again". Come on, is our economy solely based on grament exports? No. Why don't we look for other markets? Anyway, American foreign policy revolves around economics than ethics. Senator can't svream her throat off against the tyrranical regimes that the US trades with... Nepal, oh. that small country.. yeah, we can use it as a scapegoat to cover all our crimes.. Surya Bahadur Thapa ji, you didn't do the right thing by sending that letter. We are an idependent nation and we have every rights bestowed on us by the UN Charter and other related UN convesntions to use our domestic laws in our area. Didn't your close kin, who by the way was aught by the late Prof, who taught HE Bhek Bahadur Thapa, tell you this much? namaste just disgusted at Nepal's sureender and submission to jabo 5 arab rupiya.. |
| babaal | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 10:11 PM
Okay, agreed I am a retard not to know this ..but can someone explain me what the international law says and how Nepal broke that law? Is it just to do with Human rights?? |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 10:30 PM
Ouchh.... |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 10:38 PM
International law is not something every nation is obliged to accept. International law is a set of conventions,w hich nation states sign or agree to follow, and that consensus is International Law. According to Shaw, "In international law..the states themselves that create the law obey or disobey it". The UN Charter and related UN Conventions "explains" how the nations ought to behave, but there's no way one can force the sattes to act on those "principles". International law guarantees the fundamental rights of states, whcih are: independence equality peaceful coexistence On these 3 premises, the UN system operates. International law, when it come sto Human Rights, mostly concerns itself with the rights to self determination, that is, chhosing your own political system etc. etc. etc. and discrimination. To monitor this, the UN has established various comissions such as The Sub-Commison on Pevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities, Subcommissiomn on women, children etc. etc. etc. Then there's UNHCR's geneva convention that deals with "Civilians rights during wars" but it makes no mentions of immigrants travelling back and forth illegally peaceful periods. So, which law did we violate? Nepal, based on UN charter's artciles on soverignity and other relate articles and the RECOGNITION and STATE JURISDICTION can punish anyone within its territory, by using its applicable domestic law(s). namaste I hope this helps |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 10:47 PM
Also, to those of you who think taht we violated the International law, please provide me with the clauses/articles/sub-clauses on illegal immigrants that gives them exclusive righst to be handed over to UNHCR. also, its weird how we use double standards. Nepal, just before the war on iraq started deported 21 iraqi citizens who were trying to go to sweden from here. nobody said anything against that action and that was the direct violation of the international law. now, when nepal apprehends AND DEPORTS 18 tibetans who entered Nepal for better economic or otehr oppurtunities or to use Nepal as a transit point, the whole world is after us and i just wonder.. international law is no different than our muluki aain ko sarbajanik aparadh aain , which can be interpreted in anyway the concerned parties deem fit. |
| Jhilke Kyailan | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 11:36 PM
"Nepal did NOT BREAK any INTERNATIONAL LAW by deporting the 18 illegal Chinese immigrants of Tibetan origin." That in it self the question isn't it. Are they Chinese of tibetan origin or are they tibetans running away from chinese occupation and oppression? Which side of the question you are on will determine whether you believe Nepal has broken any law...actually not just law but a sacred human testament...to help other humans in dire straights. |
| Jhilke Kyailan | Posted
on 18-Jun-03 11:39 PM
However I fully agree with the rest of the argument in terms of ecomnomics rather than ethics |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 12:07 AM
JK, i don't think my statement above,w hich you quoted is vague and open to questions. Let's accept it: Tibet is a part of China. No matter how much you bang your head on the wall, or try to deny the reality, Tibet belongs to China, just as California and Hawaii belong to the US. Now, Tibet is a part of China. This means, Tibetans can be reffered to as Chinese or Chinese of Tibetan origin. This also means that, Chinese law apply in Tibet. Nepal is not part of China. This means, Nepal has its own set of laws. This means, Nepal can punish anyone in its area for violating its laws. Now, those 18 people entered Nepal. Nepal handed them to teh Chinese authorities. 1. nepal's immigration laws applied so they were deported back 2. china's immigration laws applied so they are bing tried in Chinese court now, just tell me, which/what international law/convention we violated? UNHCR's clauses/laws/articles do NOT apply in PEACE TIME period (as far as I know), and every nation state has its rights to use its domestic laws on immigrants violating the laws of (I) host nation (II) and in some cases, the laws of nation of origin (this depends on Treaties between the two nations involved.. and by the way, there's a whole convention on treaties in International Law). |
| lovaboy | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 12:07 AM
When will we learn and what can we learn from this? I think a graceful exit due to some "diplomatic reasonings" could definiitely be a possibility. There is no rational connection between 18 refugees and a bill being passed. The concern NOW is how do we get out of it? How do we create a market that will substitute the "loss" from this saga? I am ashamed to hear that Mr. Thapa apologized (i.e. if that is true). What happend to the saying "Nepali ko topi Jhukdaina!" Anyways, regardless of this event I hope younger generations like us can learn and get pumped to get involved in developing favorrible socio-economic infrastructure. I hope we can come together to create an environment where we don't have to beg. What a pity? learn to be self sustainable people !!!! on the other front, i hope there are not anti tibetan demonstrations in KTM. It would be sooo foolish of Nepali community to vent their anger and frustration to the tibetan community. Its so amazing how some idiots in Capitol hill can manage to shake up the thousands of years of bonding Nepal has with Tibet. I am sick and tired of US "my way or the high-way" strategy. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 12:12 AM
also, THE UN HAS NOT OFFICIALLY ACCEPTED THAT: 1. There is a war in Tibet 2. Ethnic cleansing or genocide going on in Tibet 3. Minority rights of the Human Rights Charter is being violated 4. There is a famine or other natural disaster So, UNHCR and Geneva Convention don't apply at all. They were illegal immigrants because they entered Nepal without Passport or Nepali Visa. By this action, they not only violated the Nepali immigration law, they also violated the Chinese immigration law. |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 01:41 AM
IF ji, No offense OK. But you sound like the son or close relative of a beaurocrat or police officer who took the bribe in lieu of those poor 18 Tibetians. Don't be blind fold, but I urge you to be critical and be able to sense what's right or wrong. Man you are grown up and should be able to make prudent judgement. Don't you understand the gravity of the problem why the US senator withdrew the garment bill? Don't you understand why UNHCR and European Union opposed Nepal's move. Sorry hai for the hard feeling on you. |
| Master_Of_One_Liners | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 01:54 AM
You don't understand, he wishes everyday that he were born Chinese. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 07:03 AM
Bhunte, The first rule of Public Speaking and Writing, if you don't want to get laughed at: Don't label people this and that, and do not make board assumptions. Support your claims with POINTS/EVIDENCE, if you are to initiate a good-healthy discussion. Having said this, I don't at all feel bad about what you wrote in your above post. I asked a simple question: Which law/article/clause of International Law did we VIOLATE? and Whthere or not you like it, you agree with it, or you accept it, Tibet is a part of China. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 07:35 AM
And, if my telling the TRUTH is being a Chinese agent and this and that, let it be. I have many a time in the past, proved in this BOARD why and how Tibet is a part of China. Go get some couple of good books on China and Chinese History written by academicians of the US who were/are not-for-sale and read those. Here's a list, if you don't know where to start: 1. China: A New History, Fairbank, John King [Read the Chapters on the Manchu conquest and tribute paying states] Harvard Bellknap Press 2. Treason by the Book, Jonathan Spence (Yale Prof. Renowned Chinese Historian) [Read afetr page 200. There's a referense to the Manchu Emperor sending his advises to the Manchu-Appointe Governer of Tibet] Also, 3. Nepal: A Small Nation in the Vortex of International Conflicts, Uprety, Prem Raman [Read the first part on Chinese Ambans in the early 19th and 20th centuries Tibet] Gorkhapatra Press, Kathmandu 4. Hamro Samaj Ek Adhyayan , Sharma, Janak Lal [Read the chapter on Abhichar-janya Samsarga (Unethical Behaviors/Contacts)] Sajha Prakashan Plus, any book you pick written by Lattimore, Huang, Kuhn that has reference of Tibet will work. Also, if you are so concerned with Nepal's violation of the International Law, read International Law, Shaw, Malcom, Cambridge University Press. Pay particular attention to chapetrs on State Recognition, International Law and Municipal law, UN System and HUman Rights. and do a google, amazon, bn and yahoo seacrh on ethical PUBLIC writing yourself. |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 09:39 AM
moral law |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 10:12 AM
if u wanted us to laugh at u ok, but don't mislead people. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 10:17 AM
Bhunte, You can laugh at me, cry at me or do anytthing that you wish, because those are not-in-my-jurisdiction. You are free to do what you want to do. However, Tell me, which law did we violate? I don't think there's any MORAL LAW in IL. See, I can understand your frustations for not being able to come up with evidence to contradict me. But, such is life. I am frustrated too. I am waiting and wanting for people to contradict me so that I myself learn a few new things on IR and IL. Namaste |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 10:31 AM
Also, I think its useless to discuss on the Senatopr's action now. There's no way we can change her mind, so its a sheer waste of time trying to persuade her to file the bill again or retract from her decision. I am just concerned at our eladers' shortsightedness, ye baba, why not try to sell clothes in Nepal? We spend millions and millions on importing clothes from bangkok, Rome and Khasa, why not put as top on that and markjet our products in Nepal? That way, we can make up to the "potential" loss we suffered? Also, why not look for other markets? Why not make arrangements with the EU and others to send our clothes there? Also, the total loss,a ccording to some reports is 5 billion rupees. 5 arap rupiya barabar ko kapada rey.. now, that's a little over estimnation. 5 billions worth garments would be produced if our industries operate in full scale. We just looked at the optimum production or whatever it is, we didn't look at the real state of prodcution.. so, let's imagine, the total garments prodcued and of export quality, under the best case scenario is 5 billion, under the current scenario is 3 billion. 3 arab ko loss--but what's the big deal? Can't our garment industries dividde this 3 billion between the markets of Nepal, India, other nations? just a thought. Maybe ashu has insights on how these businesses run in Nepal. namaste NEWSFLASH: 10 + tibetans were arrested in a police raid in Bouddha last night. They were engaged in illegal gambling and are now in the cutody. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 10:34 AM
put as top on = put a stop on that |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 10:37 AM
under what law UNHCAR is governed by? me frustrated? wow.....how come u have such a wonderful ideas!! go to bed baby....tomorrow morning u wake up, freshen up, and talk to me after breakfast.. |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 10:40 AM
why r u bogging on tibetians? do u want to prove that tibetians in nepal r engaged in illegal activities like gambling.....god, help if.... |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 10:55 AM
Bhunte, Yoiur assumption on the fisrt posting directed toward me is the ebst example of you not having anything substantial to contribute. second, you did not answer my question. now, you are telling me how i should live my life... The UNHCR and other UN conventiosn are governed by a principle that makes a braoda ssumption that all nations who AGREE to them, will follow them. However, tehre's no provision to dictate the states to follow the rules. Nations can obey/disobey the rules. About UNHCR, it was formed under teh 1951 convention. The 1951 convention says that : Persons who have been determined, under an equitable procedure, not to be in need of international protection are in a situation similar to that of illegal aliens, and may be deported. However, UNHCR does urge that protection be granted to people who come from countries devastated by armed conflicts or generalized violence. The agency also advocates that rejected asylum seekers be granted the right to a review before being deported. http://www.unhcr.ch/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/basics/+DwwBm7ewAbdwwwwnwwwwwwwhFqoUfIfRZ2ItFqtxw5oq5zFqtFEIfgIAFqoUfIfRZ2IDzmxwwwwwww1FqtFEIfgI/opendoc.htm |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 11:01 AM
having said this, I hav eto say, i should be ignoring your nonsensical emotional postings, unless you come up with better counter arguments. namaste |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 11:08 AM
IF, Yes, for you it make sense to accept kick backs and deport poor refugee...new avenue of business oppportunity right... do u think the move by the US senator nonsense? if u want to be a future leader, try to make prudent judgement. don't try to be fooled yourself being like a typical 'kaite adhikrit' yes, nations can obey or disobey international laws/rules....take it as a joke |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 11:11 AM
P.S. If, forget to say my Namaste... |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 11:16 AM
Bhunte: for you it make sense to accept kick backs and deport poor refugee...new avenue of business oppportunity right... again asumptions, harey.. Also, what you wrote is yet to be proved. Ghus khayeko praman chaina.. i am not saying that Nepali policemen are good and don't take bribes, but in this case, just because Jeff wrote that "bribery" is involved, and that too sitting in his comfy room in SF, I have a hard time believing this. also, do u think the move by the US senator nonsense? if u want to be a future leader, try to make prudent judgement. don't try to be fooled yourself being like a typical 'kaite adhikrit' Don't get too emotional. Cool down~! Yes, I think the move was a nonsensensical act. This was bound to be a failure from the very beginning. I don't have any intention to be a future leader. Yes, I am a Kaite adhikrit. And you are still confused about the international law and the UN System. An example of this obey/disobey is the signing of nuclear proliferation treaty. Some nations have signed, some haven't and those who haven't signed the treaty/provisions aren't international criminal states. namaste |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 11:38 AM
Harey Shiva, timi ta kasto Jiddiwala...i thought the earlier posting would conclude this thread, but it is multiplying like bacteria.... |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 11:42 AM
its called making a stand in public, and also called being CONSISTENT. |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 12:09 PM
wish I can decorate you with a supersize 'Godaba' for your public service.... namaste |
| Yadav | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 12:09 PM
Bhunte = another bhedo? |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 12:10 PM
no, bhedo gothale |
| sewak | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 01:51 PM
isolated Freak: YOu are isolated from the history of Nepal and you are freaking out. Combination of both entitles GODABA like other sajhabrothers have mentioned. You dont have to look far to justify Tibet independence. Just go to Singha Durbar and do some research at that Dept I forgot the name? Did you know that Nepal has Consulate General for over 150 yrs in Lhasa, Capitol of Tibet. Do you know that Brhikuti is married to Tibetan King around 700 a.c. to strenghten relationship between the 2 countries. Forget all those. Just go to Honda, Hotel Radisson, Bluebird, or any Newari people. Ask them what their grand father did? They will give you int'l trade with Tibet. Did you know that part of Tibet, Khasa and Nyaanam areas were invaded by Nepal for over 7 years. In return, Tibet govt had to pay over Rs 100,000 every year. When it was not paid, Nepal crushed them again in war. Did you know that Nepalese in the 40s had special Nepali Citizenship to carry so that they were not taxed in Tibet and got special permission. If you look at some old books, you will see the picture of Nepal Consulate General photoes and the Reps. But did nepal ever had gov't reps to China in 1800s or early 1900s. No. So what does that tell you? Did you know that Tibetan currency was exchanged openly in Asan before 50s. I guess Bhote baal is name given for Tibetans who used to pitch tent in Tudikhel and get water somewhere around there. Do you need more to digest or is this good enough for time being? Let me know..Always at your service for Isolated Freak. Namaste. |
| maximum20 | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 02:27 PM
I agree with the comments posted by Isolated Freak. Just because some random people from Nepal's history got married to someone who called himself "tibetan king" does not make Tibet independant. go get hold of an atlas and you'll know if tibet is as independant as you claim it to be. Whether China's "occupation" of Tibet is justified is a whole new question. Those of you who're saying Nepal violated some stupid international laws are simply relaying whatever the hell these dumb american leaders are saying. Nepal did deviate from it's earlier trend but was what it did illegal? no. Is it condemnable? now this is subjective. On the flipside, if Nepal were to let more and more refugees sneak into nepal then china will get pissed. I'd also like to add how pathetic it is to see people's response to a steadfast opinion in this forum. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 09:48 PM
Sewak, Glad to know that you are at my service. But, there's no need for your service. Now let me counter you: The office near Singhadurbar is Rastriya Abhilekhalaya + Puratatwa Bibhag (National Archives + Department of Archaeology). We have amazing sets of documents there: Here's some for your kind info: There's a letter written by Rana Bahadur Shah to the Chinese Emperor and the Chinese Emperor's reply to Rana Bahadur Shah. The letter is interesting ebcause both letters have date "maha chin sambat" mentioned, which has made Mahesh Raj Pant argue that Nepal Sambat infact came from China. Also, the direct correspondence between the two kings a little more than 200 years ago, is a VALID EVIDENCE TO prove that by then, the Chinese had assumed total control of Tibet. Also, during the Rana rule in Nepal, the Ranas directly dealt with the Chinese, not with the Tibetan authorities. There are pokas and more pokas of the letters/communication between the two countries at the Pararastra Mantralaya. Anyway, don't count on Bhrikuti and Arnico anymore. This is history. Plus, some historians have openly argued against the idea that Bhrikuti was infact Ansuvarma's daughter. + Shren Cheng Gampo wasn't a King, he was a Chinese governmnet appointed Governor of Tibet. Just as he married Bhrikuti, he also married a Chinese princess. HAHHAHA ABOUT TIBETAN COINS: This is funny. You know Tibetan coins were/are likes the coins you get in temples of India, which has a logo of the temple and some random no. printed, which you can use in the premises of that temple. Ditto about the Tibetan coins. See, discussing with you on Chinese+Nepali history is like banging my head on the wall, so, unless you come up with solid arguments that are HISTORICALLY correct, I don't think I'll be wasting my time either reading your nonsensical emotional gibberish or replying to those. I hope I made myself clear. Namaste |
| somya | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 10:59 PM
hello Mr. IF dunt bellow out for nthg if i dunt sound offensive can i ask u wat U have done so far except for proving ur awareness and concern on the matter. and it was rude of somebuddy trying to tell u how to live yr life, kinda funny but instead of going personal or netwrecked about it why dunt u start sthg of ur own? |
| lovaboy | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 11:04 PM
A Great Piece from Nepali Times. here is a thoughtful article that is worth some attention. Tibet, Tibet Tibet activists must realise that further strangling Nepals near-dead economy will not encourage positive change on the part of the kingdoms policy makers. Never mind the Maoist insurgency, every politically correct tourist now has a new reason to avoid Nepal. On 9 June, a California-based group called Ethical Traveler (www.ethicaltraveler.com) announced a tourism boycott of Nepal. Why? To protest Nepals forcible deportation of 18 Tibetan refugees into China on 31 May. Several major international Tibetan rights groups have endorsed the boycott, including The Tibet Justice Center, Students for a Free Tibet, US Tibet Committee, and The Milarepa Fund. Ethical Traveler and its director, occasional ex-pat Jeff Greenwald, are right to criticise the actions of the Nepali government and to demand a forceful protest. But they are wrong to think that a tourism boycott of Nepal is the best way to achieve the desired effect. A prominent Tibetan rights activist called the boycott a simplistic, kneejerk reaction to a very complicated and serious situation, pointing out that Nepal makes an easy target for the international activist community too intimidated to challenge China directly. If the objective is to ensure Tibetan rights, why not take on the real bully by calling for a broad-based US-led international boycott of Chinese trade? Would-be tourist-activists must be told that further strangling Nepals near-dead tourist economy will not encourage positive change on the part of the kingdoms policy makers. In fact, the weaker the economy gets, the greater the incentive for political players of all stripes to curry favour with China in the hopes of reaping future economic and political rewards. The people most likely to be negatively affected by a boycott are common Nepalis and refugee Tibetans already resident in Nepal who survive off tiny pieces of the tourist pie. Ethical Traveler has claimed that the boycott will have little true economic impact on individual Nepalis.This is a spurious suggestion when an individual shortfall of as little as Rs 100 a day can have serious effects on whole families who exist at the bottom of the tourism totem pole. In the improbable event that this is right, then why bother calling a boycott instead of using the more effective and to-the-point protest strategy of letter/fax writing? A boycott with no economic teeth seems unlikely to achieve its stated goal of changing Nepali government policy through direct action . What a lot of good intention wasted. Ethical Traveler suggests that regardless of its economic effects, the larger purpose of the boycott is to keep the issue alive in the international media. Activists truly concerned about the shared future of Nepalis and Tibetans would do better to consider the Tibetan issue within the larger context of human rights abuses plaguing His Majestys Government of Nepal. As one long-time Western resident in Kathmandu put it, The recent deportation of Tibetans is only one symptom of the much broader problem of human rights abuses in Nepal. Singling out the Tibetan issue as the human rights issue in Nepal that is most worthy of international concern makes a painful mockery of the suffering experienced during the seven years of Maoist-state conflict by thousands of rural Nepalis, people who have rarely made an international headline or been the lucky beneficiaries of tourist-activism. It also sends the unfortunate message to HMG that while Tibetans are worthy of more careful treatment, their own Nepali citizens are not. For this reason, the proposed boycott will spark new tensions between the Nepali and Tibetan communities. Most Nepalis, particularly those who suffer at the hands of their own corrupt and ineffective government, are intuitively sympathetic to the Tibetan plight, though some have asked why there is not a similar boycott of Bhutan for its treatment of ethnic Nepali refugees. Unfortunately, a boycott of Nepali tourism called in the name of Tibetan refugees has the potential to draw stark lines between the two communities, hindering rather than helping mutual understanding. Instead of alienating the Nepali public by boycotting travel to the country, the international community (tourist and otherwise) should engage with individual Nepalis and the Nepali media to raise the profile of the issue right here in Nepal. Nepalis will hopefully come to see the Tibetan situation as a feature of their own serious human rights problem, and begin to pressure their own government, police, and armed forces to adopt responsible human rights practices across the board. Concerned foreigners should use their collective influence to join Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch in a fax writing campaign to Nepali embassies, government offices and the media. The high profile of the Tibetan deportation should be used as a platform from which to protest the dismal human rights record characterised by illegal detentions, disappearances, torture and extrajudicial killings which are being documented across Nepal. Ethical judgements are never easily made, particularly regarding a situation as complex as contemporary Himalayan geopolitics. Truly ethical travellers should take a closer look at the facts for themselves and consider boycotting the boycott. Better still, the morality experts at Ethical Traveler might call it off before the damage is done, and save everyone a lot of trouble. (Sara Shneiderman is conducting anthropological research in Nepal and Tibet for a PhD at Cornell University in the United States. Mark Turin is Director of the Digital Himalaya Project based at the Department of Social Anthropology at Cambridge University, UK.) |
| sewak | Posted
on 20-Jun-03 01:00 PM
Isolated ju: Dhanyabaat. I know I can count on you find the name of that sakha inside singadurbar. Now let me sum up and I know it is true. I am sure RBShah and others have written letter to China and other nations. So have other leades to their neighbors. Thats nothing new. In 1913, British fought war inside Tibet near Sikkim border. Later Sikkim mediated to end that. It never, let me repeat never, mentions China. For over 100 years when Nepal setup consulate in Lhasa to look after the welfare of Nepali merchants, specially Newaris, there is never mentioned a need to consult with Chinese. I wonder why Nepal accepted Tibetan currency, NOT ONLY COIN, let me repeat, not only coin, but also PAPER MONEY. But I have not heard of Chinese Money in Kathmandu or Chinese Money with any newari sau. For they are the one who have traded with Tibet for centuries. That's why I suggested you to ask Either Honda Co, Blue Star or Hote Radisson sau. Their grand parents were prominent traders. You may think Tibetan coins looking funny. Whether it is funny or not, that is how they traded from KTM to Lhasa. Given what they have, my hats off to those people traded and respected each other in such a way and developed the realtionship in which they were able to pass on the teachings of Buddha and arts like thanka, mandala,etc. About Sron-Chen Gompo being Chinese governer, you got to show some respect. I know you are not Buddhist. But for Tibetan Buddhist followers, this is simply unacceptable. For he is the one, who had a vision and a right timing to start Buddhism in Tibet and around all its Himalayan Region. This is written precisely in the Buddhist text. During the reign of Sron-Chong Gompo, Tibet was so powerful that China and Nepal had to give their princess to build a relationship. You are saying Srong-Chen Gompo being Chinese governer is going strongly against all those who believe in Tibetan Buddhism. When I say that I am talking about millions of people from karnali to Mechi. You should be careful in saying that. It can create another havoc. Had it not been for Sron-Chen Compo, there would not have been such a growth of Buddhism all across Himalaya. I know it is none of concern to you. But it is very relevant to my belief. Never once in the Buddhist script does it mention that Tibet has been under China. If you go to any home of Tib Bud followers, you should know that you will see pictures of Sakya, Karmapa, Dudjom, Dalai lama and many others. When I say Tib Bud followers, I mean those in Darchula, humla, manaange, yolmo, sherpa in namche and many other areas. I hope you enjoyed watching movie Himalaya. And I am talking about those people. For generations of our parents, grand parents, and great grand parents, Rimpochens have guided us. Monastries and institutions from where our dharma and teachers came are important for us. But when chinese attacked and destroyed the system and place where it started, it harm us greatly. Till today, they continue to dictate with guns in the monastries where our teachers learned. There has been unbroken lineage. But now it may stop because of what is going on in Tibet. Nepal is a land of diverse culture. I know Brahmin and Chetri, who are Hindu majority have ruled Nepal for long time. So most of the official documents speak from that point of view and discredite when it comes to Buddhist. But it is time we look broadly and include those who have been left out for long time. I know that is the only way for all of us to move forward and in the interest of national unity. Enough of same political battle and each other blaming. I hope I have made myself clearer. Namaste |
| sewak | Posted
on 20-Jun-03 03:06 PM
Isola ju: When I say, "You should be careful in saying that." I dont meant it to be in any offensive way. My apology if there is one. All I meant is out of respect for other sajha brothers, sisters & nepali back home who follow same religion as I do in yolmo. |