| Sajha.com Archives | |
| Username | Post |
| Satya | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 09:40 AM
My own view is that Tibet is a sovereign country now occupied by China. Some comrades in Sajha forums declare that Tibet is part of China using the words and tone of People's Daily. If we read PRC and her supporters views then there seems no doubt on the Chinese claim on Tibet. Communist China is trying hard to rewrite Tibetan history to prove that Tibet was historically always part of China. But almost all Tibetans believe that their country is occupied by China and many people support them. With growing economic and military power of PRC, Tibetans are being forgotten with their voices limited within Dharmashala. If controlling power decides the sovereign status of a country then there is no doubt that Tibet is part of China. Taiwan is a sovereign country though both PRC and ROC disagree if we apply the same logic. Is Iraq part of USA? May be for the time being? Going back to Tibet, I recommend the following article, which is a brief history of Tibet with links to Tibet and Chinese emperors, Mongol and Nepali rulers. This article shows the historical events on which the Chinese claim their right to rule Tibet. If we agree Chinese logic then Nepal might be part of India if not part of China. Historyof Tibet From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. |
| Bond-007 | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 10:42 AM
Satya, Let's face todays reality, yes! Tibet is part of China. If we look into the history book once upon a time some part of Tibet was part of Nepal, some part of India was part of Nepal and some part of Nepal was part of India. Sikkim was a sovereign country, Bangladesh and Pakistan were part of India, much of Balkan and Middle East (Including Iraq) was part of Ottoman Empire. As time passes by new boundaries will be created, there will be consolidation and breakdown of nations and land. I am waiting for the day when human kind will proudly say I am a citizen of IBMsthan, Microsoftland, GEmerica, Golchhapal, Tatadesh, Gasonia etc. |
| Nirvana | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 03:18 PM
Bond-007- " I am waiting for the day when human kind will proudly say I am a citizen of IBMsthan, Microsoftland, GEmerica, Golchhapal, Tatadesh, Gasonia etc. Don't get me wrong but I dont' know and see any reason why you have to be PROUD to be one of the citizen of above u mentioned? Of couse it is rather unique Idea and thinking.... I rather be saying citizen EARTH etc. |
| Bond-007 | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 04:14 PM
Nirvana, Before reunification *Kathmandu basi* were proud citizen of the Kingdom of Kathmandu so were *Patan basi*, *Bhaktaput basi* and *Gorkha basi*. After reunification they all became proud citizen of Nepal. Definition of what makes a community or a state is slowly changing. People of similar feature or similar language or similar religion staying together and making communities are slowly fading away and in place people with similar economic interest, similar jobs, similar workplaces and similar thoughts and making communities. I believe these communities will slowly be recognized as an autonomous state within a state and eventually a state of its own. (Just my CRAZY analysis) |
| salakjith | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 05:32 PM
yup i fully agree with Bond-007 too. in fact, though Nepalese make a big hue and cry everytime india appear to be bullying nepal, nepal would probably be better off being a part of india as well. the logic is similar to whatever reason was given for pritivi narayan's creation of nepal. |
| KaleKrishna | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 06:03 PM
So, there is certain section of the society who belief that being like Sikkim would have been much better for Nepal. Well, India must be playing a grand design (if Girija Babu is rightly mentioning to it). Piting political parties, catalysting anarchy situation, brain washing future generation intelectuals by paying for their study, fooling rural comunity by their new notion of their changing trend to support Nepal. They don,t have to do more, we are eger to hand over it, they just need an excuse and they will find plenty of them. In the same note, the political situation in Taiwan is also divided the ruling DPP is for full independent but KMT and its alies are softer to it. There is a big section of the society that even goes on to say that we are bound by same language, culture and now with economic prosperity we have to be united. Some hard stance of the PRC government against ROC, like curtailing international participation and others are irritating for young generations. In line with Tibet, regardless of historic prospective of independence, a Tibetian friend of mine was mentioning how young generation want to leave behind all these political concerns and progress ecopnomically. It is said that older generations and some rebelious young generation are for the ffight till death. Majority want the economic prosperity of the region and they feel it is only posible through PRC's commitment. They however want to preserve their own cultural and religious identity, that the younger generation are lossing thanks to Western influence, not Chinese. Whatever be the future of Tibetians, we should always wish for the collective progress and prosperity of the comunity which shares many thing in common with us. However, the problem is best if solved early. The losers Nepal, be it international backlash for handling their illegal entry or the hordes of passports and citizens certificate that our generous government officials provide them in name of helping them flle abroad. Nepal will only benefit if there is a prosporous Tibet and I think if being part of China grants them that, we should consider changing our attitudes. They may say the same to us if our big brother had done the same. But reality and progress are not to be thought in emotional state, when the future of the whole comunity is at stake, digging the past may not be beneficial. |
| SITARA | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 06:09 PM
"Posted on 06-19-03 3:18 PM Reply | Notify Admin Jond-007- " I am waiting for the day when human kind will proudly say I am a citizen of IBMsthan, Microsoftland, GEmerica, Golchhapal, Tatadesh, Gasonia etc."........ Bond 007 Good one! Amazing wit on Globalization versus Glocalization. |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 19-Jun-03 08:43 PM
how about 'Golmalization'...ehehe |
| Master_Of_One_Liners | Posted
on 20-Jun-03 04:21 AM
Don't forget Sajhapur with its 90% anonymous citizens. |
| Tej_bahadur | Posted
on 20-Jun-03 05:59 AM
Tasbir Afai bolchha........... Photo of original photo...:) 
|
| Tej_bahadur | Posted
on 20-Jun-03 06:00 AM
... Pancha Lama, Maote-Tung, Dalai Lama |
| Hellbound | Posted
on 20-Jun-03 07:24 AM
Satya, I would say this is so dim-witted topics. Do not elude from the reality by your self-proclaimed erroneous statement, "Tibet is a sovereign country now occupied by China." Look at the definition of sovereignty, for slimming down of your proclaim. What do you find? Where are the rulers and leaders? Where's your self-governing supermacy standed for it independence? If China is just OCCUPYING, when they will set Tibet free? How long are they gonna rule there? It's been many centuries since China intervened Tibet and affixed on its land. Accept the reality. |
| Prem Charo | Posted
on 20-Jun-03 08:15 AM
Hey Satya, Is Tibet part of china is not the questin, It is the answer "Tibet is part of China". Chill man !! I hope Tibet will free in future though !! |
| yoUnGbLooDZ | Posted
on 20-Jun-03 09:12 AM
this reminds meh of a joke.. Once there was a meeting of all the Surd freedom fighters. They were planning for free Punjab. Santa Singh raised a point, "Oh..we'll get Punjab from India but how would we develop it?" That was a difficult question indeed. Suddenly Banta Singh replied, "No problem! we'll attack USA, it would take over US and then we would be a state of USA and we'll automatically get developed." All the surds became happy on this very simple solution but an old surd did not utter a single word. Someone asked him why he wasn't happy. The Surd replied, "OH! THAT'S ALRIGHT BUT...WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF BY CHANCE WE TAKE OVER USA ?????"?" |
| KaleKrishna | Posted
on 20-Jun-03 11:36 PM
YoungBloodz, tyhe joke is reality with the Taiwanese history. When Chiank Kai sheik, (the compatriot of Mao who fought together to free China from the clutches of the monarch then) had to flee after defets at the hand of the comunists. He with his followers fled to Taiwan, there they vowed to take China and make Taiwan the best of all the proviences of China. The dream never materialized, and the rest is known to all of us. There are some strong supporters of the late leaders dream. They fell that if we take China or China takes us, it is the same story. In either case the unification of China is the ultimate desire. The only question was the struggle against the comunist and their ideology which only exists in namesake in China. There are some section which even belief if China converts to Taiwanese political system the unification will not be a problem. However, reality is something else, but still the joke of Santa/Banta singh fits right here. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 21-Jun-03 02:25 AM
KaleyKrishna, Its interesting that you bought in the Taiwanese history. But, I think the situation there is a bit more complicated than the Sardar JOke:-) The majority of the Taiwanese population wants to unite with the mainland, however, the leaders, have been using the "independence/unification" card to win the elections. In 2000, Chen Sui Bian came to power using the same card. Before elections, he was adamant on the independence, and when he won the elections, interestingly enough the share market went downhill because of the fear of a forceful Chinese unification. Then, during his sworn in ceromony, or whatever it is, he retracted from his earier promise and the threat of Mainland using force against Taiwan receeded, and the Taiwanese economy started to go up. To make things better, A-Me, a popular Taiwanese artist went to Beijing and organzied concerts, which many CCP members attended. "ni shi wo de mei mei.. ni shi wo de bay-bay.. The situation is complex. The majority wants to unite with the mainland, but there's a significant proportion that wants to see an Independent Taiwan. The US's position is very vague regarding Taiwan. On the one hand, they have agreed that there's only one China, on the other hand, they are still, in one way or the other, supporting the Taiwanese leaders and have assured protection against any military threat from the mainland. So, the Taiwanese people and leaders are caught in between the will to unite and the vague US policy that neither recognzis them as an independent nation, nor lets them unite with the mainland. just a freaky analysis. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 21-Jun-03 02:27 AM
bought =brought |
| Master_Of_One_Liners | Posted
on 21-Jun-03 03:38 AM
The majority wants to unite with the mainland I always thought the majority wanted to be independent - can you throw me some numbers please. |
| Satya | Posted
on 21-Jun-03 04:32 AM
Bond_007: Let's face todays reality, yes! Tibet is part of China. Is your argument based on effective control of Tibet by PRC? Then is Taiwan (ROC officially includes mainland China under communist rule) an independent country? Soviet government officially recognized Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania on Sept 6, 1991 ending the occupation since the end of WWII. Were these Baltic countries part of Soviet Union or occupied territories before September 1991? While boundary of a country is not a constant and people gradually forget their previous separate identity, it is not always true. If Tibetans dont forget their separate identity for several generations then there is always a question of occupation. Salakjith: Yes, I agree with you that had Nepal united with India during British rule in India we would be chanting jana gan.. happily. Our compatriots in India are not seeking to unite with us. But dont you mind if Nepal is swallowed by India today? Kalekrishna: Real politics? Your comment makes sense in terms of economy but not in terms of religious, spiritual and social terms. Bhunte: Golmalization is already the norm of the day. Might is right. Hellbound: O.K. there is no light at the end of tunnel for independent Tibet. Taiwan has everything an independent country is supposed to have. Is Taiwan a sovereign country? Prem Charo: What do you think about Baltic countries during Soviet occupation? Finally dogfight with our beloved Freakji. Older generation, especially people originally from mainland China hope to be united with mainland China. I have doubt on your observation that The majority wants to unite with the mainland. Yes it is true only conditionally - if mainland China embrace democracy. I agree with your view that a significant number of people want independent China and I would like to add: most of them are native Taiwanese and younger generation. As mainland China is major market and investment platform for Taiwan, most of the Taiwanese dont want independence lest they will loose these opportunity and privilege. It doesnt mean that they have no desire for independence. They are also afraid of communist invasion if Taiwan declares independence. Most of Taiwanese want status quo no independence and no unification with mainland China. |
| Satya | Posted
on 21-Jun-03 04:49 AM
Master_Of_One_Liners: Here is a link with a poll result of 2001. But I belive result is valid for today though the percentage might be slightly different. Tiwanesedividedbetween optionson nation's status - Taipei Times |
| Satya | Posted
on 21-Jun-03 04:56 AM
Please read: I agree with your view that a significant number of people want independence from China instead of "I agree with your view that a significant number of people want independent China" |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 21-Jun-03 09:54 AM
Satya, See, I have better things to do that replying to someone who labels me dog and an agent and a mouthpiece of the CCP. Your replies to anyone in this thread don't make any sense. Tibet was formally/officially annexed in the year 1271, and yeah, the majority of the Taiwanese want to unite to the mainland, because its the same culture, same religious belief and China's acceptance of HK principle, i.e., One country, two systems, have attratcted the majority of the Taiwanese.. the only thing that's barring Taiwan from uniting with the mainland is the American presence and murkha leaders like Chen Sui Bian. Your example of baltic nations don't make sense.. if we go by that logic, then..why not look at the Treaty of Westphelia and see, how many nations which were involved ins igning that peace treaty exist today and how many of them vanished, and beased on the treaty records, why not grant all of them independence? Didn't the Westphelia in 17th century gave birth to the modern international system? Why not break nepal into 22-24 rajyas and the valley into 3 kingdoms? Why push for the Koraen unification? so, what are you talking? |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 21-Jun-03 10:06 AM
IFji, I thought you brought in some sound arguments and evidence. If I am not mistaken, the HH Dalai Lama is also not asking for Tibet's independence, he is saying that Tibet needs more autonomy within the Chinese federation so that Tibetan's can retain their cultural, religious, and political decision making powers while being part of the the middle kingdom. I think that is a very reasonable position...but then, all the international politics gets in the way of a resolution. Tashi Dalek! |
| knt | Posted
on 21-Jun-03 10:07 AM
If you ask me there is double standard when it comes to Tibet. It was OK when Ashkenazi Jews flooded Israel and carved their own country from scratch, basically claiming that it was historically theirs, as the Bible and their own holy book, the Torah, describes, according to them, but when China claims the same thing, people, especially Europeans, cry apartheid and subjugation and oppression. That doesn't make sense to me. People have been annexing lands for eons to tell you the truth. America wasn't a white territory, and neither were Australia and South American countries. So why this hullabaloo about what China is doing to Tibet? It's all for Tibet's own good. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 21-Jun-03 10:29 AM
Suva chintak, Yes, even HH Dalai Lama is not asking for a free/independent Tibet. His 5 point peace proposal does not have any point/provision about Free Tibet. HH Dalai Lama says he wasn't a truly autonomous Tibet, that's it. In his speech to the US Congress on September 21, 1987, the Tibetan leader proposed his Five-Point Peace Plan for solving the Tibetan problem. The Five Points were : 1. Transformation of the whole of Tibet into a zone of peace ; 2. Abandonment of China's population transfer policy which threatens the very existence of the Tibetans as a people; 3. Respect for the Tibetan people's fundamental human rights and democratic freedoms; 4. Restoration and protection of Tibet's natural environment and the abandonment of China's use of Tibet for the production of nuclear weapons and dumping of nuclear waste ; 5. Commencement of earnest negotiations on the future status of Tibet and of relations between the Tibetan and Chinese people. Also, He further made it clear that he was not asking for the independence of Tibet from China but was asking the Chinese government to grant a totally autonomous status to Tibet; a true autonomy in the sense that Tibetans choose their own legislature and make their own rules according to their religion and traditions. He said he did not have any objections whatsoever to giving the Chinese government responsibility to handle Tibets foreign and defense policy. Further elaborating on his five points, he said that declaring Tibet as a zone of peace will help in sustaining peace throughout the Indian Sub-continent by lowering the conflict between China and India. Among other issues, such as human rights, was also the inclusion of Amdo and Kham (the regions which were cut off from Tibet after 1949) into the proposed Tibetan Autonomous region. His Holiness the Dalai Lama once again made it clear that he was willing to negotiate with the Chinese government as soon as possible. (FROM MY COLLEGE PAPER. IF ANYONE WANTS TO READ THE WHOLE PAPER, FEEL FREE TO EMAIL ME) |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 21-Jun-03 10:33 AM
OK, let me quote HH Dalai Lama (This is also from myc ollege paper that I did in 1999): Answering the queries of the journalists he made it clear that he was ready to negotiate with China based on his five points peace plan provided that the Chinese government do not impose pre-conditions. He once again made it clear that he was not asking for independent Tibet . I am ready to talk&. Anywhere, any time, without pre-conditions. Thats my middle way approach, strictly non-violent. I am not seeking independence. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 21-Jun-03 10:38 AM
Tibet. HH Dalai Lama says he wasn't a truly autonomous = he wants |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 21-Jun-03 10:45 AM
knt, great insight into the larger picture of world politics...someone's land grab gets hailed as liberation while another's is decried as oppression. There is no justice in this world, I dare say! |
| Satya | Posted
on 21-Jun-03 09:28 PM
Feakji: You are again parroting Peoples Daily on the question of Taiwan and One Country, Two Systems . Biased poll by Taiwan New Party shows 47.5% of Taiwanese Support this concept. Please see click here to read the news extracted from Peoples Daily. Other polls show majority of Taiwanese opposes One Country, Two Systems . The MAC found in its latest public opinion poll that nearly 70 percent of the Taiwan public are opposed to Beijing's "one country, two systems" scheme now, compared with 87.2 percent in 1999, when then-president Lee Teng-hui categorically termed cross-strait ties as a "state to state relationship." Please click here to read the details in Taipei Times. The highest rate of opposition to the "one country, two systems" concept registered at 65%, with the lowest coming in at 54%. Meanwhile, between 18% and 25% of respondents replied that they could accept the policy for Taiwan. Please click here to read details in Taiwan Headlines. How successful is One Country, Two Systems in Hong Kong? Please read the following article: The Implementation of 'One Country, Two Systems' in Hong Kong by Bryon S. J. Weng, Professor, Department of Public Policy and Administration, National Chi Nan University, Puli, Taiwan. On the Taiwan unification issue: American presence has prevented forceful unification of Taiwan by PRC not the unification itself. If Chen Shui-bian and pro-independence leaders are murkha then are the Taiwanese people who elected him. Regarding your philosophical questions Why not break Nepal into 22-24 rajyas and the valley into 3 kingdoms? And Why push for the Koraen unification? - Do the people in these 22-24 rajyas and 3 kingdoms in the valley want to be separated from Nepal? Do they have distinct religious and ethnic identity? Do you see any similarity between Tibet and China as the two Koreas have? Yes, Dalai lama has abandoned the dream of free Tibet because this is the only option available to save Tibetan culture. They cannot afford long time waiting to free their homeland because the population of Hans is growing very fast making them minority in their own land. |
| jaya_nepal | Posted
on 21-Jun-03 10:46 PM
Tibet was an independent country many years back. During the era of colonialism, many new boundaries were formed. If Tibet can be declared an independent country again, then why not change the whole world map back to what it used to be many centuries from now. It is the fact that Tibet is now a part of China, and no one can deny this fact. If Tibet fights for freedom, then whole world would continue fighting over their independence. United States support the cause of Tibet, coz of their anti-China policies. US just wants to destroy China and that is why they support Tibetan cause. Otherwise they have no interests for the welfare of Tibet. |
| kalekrishna | Posted
on 23-Jun-03 10:49 PM
India have accepted Tibet as integral part of China. When it comes to own skin and interest no body is friend. HH Dalai Lama being a spritual leader knows that it is all illusionary support and what others seems to back is only to meet their own selfish end by blackmailing China. Now it is high time the exile Tibetain leaders seriously thought about the issue and try to find the best bargain in hand. More on Indian treachery to the hopes of Tibetians on this site http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/index.html |