| Username |
Post |
| ashu |
Posted
on 19-Jul-03 08:37 PM
GP-ji wrote:
"(I heard St. X look more for Parents social status, and those in Govt. or biz. top positions get easy access to ST. X. Well, fees in St. X is comparatively cheaper."
GP-ji, logically, wouldn't you expect a school that supposedly "looks more for" parents' social status and so on to actually cost MORE than other schools? But the fact that the school is actually "cheaper" should tell you that what you heard about STX admissions is FALSE.
*********************************
GP-ji wrote:
"St. X 's main purpose is to make elite class not oppose the real motive of Christian Missinaries."
Missionaries are often Protestants who travel to spread their versions of Christianity
and attempt to convert as many people as possible. The Jesuit priests at St. Xavier's are
all Catholics, and Catholics, as a rule, are NOT into conversion and proselytization. Most people in Nepal do NOT understand the basic difference between Protesants and Catholics and tend to lump all Christians into one bundle.
[If anything, ancedotally speaking, one of my fondest memories of school is about having intense and educational discussions about Bhagvad Gita with a Jesuit Priest named Fr. Case Bailey, who now lives in Oregon. Later, I got interested in Hindu philosophy, and I attribute that interest to those ninth-grade discussions with
Fr. Bailey.]
Besides, it so happens most of the the bigwigs at Biswo Hindu Mahasangh (Kathmandu chapter) have had their sons and daughters educated at St. Xavier's and St. Mary's. Yet if you attend any of the BHM conferences, the bigwigs' vitriol against Christians is always corrosive.
So much for the theory that STX's main purpose is to make the elites unopposd to Christianity, don't you think?
*****************************
GP-ji wrote:
"while St. X are mostly (almost 100%) are from elite class"
STX's principal recently wrote a letter in which he said, "We have a total number of 1146 students and 113 of these are full (including boarding and lodging, uniforms & stationery) and partial scholarship last year alone we spent about Rs. 25,99,406.00
on these scholarship students." And mind you, those who are paying the fees are paying some of the lowest fees around.
That should give you an idea whether you wrote is really believable.
I mean, the idea of "cheaper" school catering to "100 per cent" of "the elite class" sounds pretty anomalous, don't you think?
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| (*)Y(*) |
Posted
on 19-Jul-03 08:43 PM
GP ki to bajaadi na..
:0
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| Bhunte |
Posted
on 19-Jul-03 09:19 PM
one may consider GP's propositions as null hypotheses, and test for if they are accepted or rejected......not so bad idea..
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| Matepani |
Posted
on 19-Jul-03 11:36 PM
Ashuji,
The figure from the principal is the one after the major overhaul of Godavari organization. After the incessant pressure from the local people, Godavari was made a purely local school during CPN UML government.
Before that, the scholarship was for handful of local people just to appese them. So the fatc remains that STX, godavari was for elite nepalese till few years ago.I myself being the product, in our very class I can tell you almost 90% student's parent's were big shot.
As with proselytization, I still cannot understand why for I Sc students, there was this stupid "Values" class( without predefined syllabus!) twice every week where one of the fathers from great South India always talked about Jesus and his deeds!
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| ashu |
Posted
on 20-Jul-03 03:28 AM
>>>The figure from the principal is the one after the major overhaul of Godavari organization. "
No.
The figures are for this academic year: 2003.
>>After the incessant pressure from the local people, Godavari was made a purely local school<<<
No.
The Jesuits themselves changed course at Godavari -- a change they are now re-thinking. CPN-UML, let it be said, had NOTHING to do with the change. Many old Godavarians are still angry that the Jesuits did not see it fit to consult them when
the latter made changes at Godavari.
>>in our very class I can tell you almost 90% student's parent's were big shot.<<
Fine.
But let's look at this historically: In the past, schools like STX were few in Nepal.
Many parents in Kathmandu sent their kids to a few "good" schools in Kathmandu. STX was one of them. Those who could afford more sent their kids to Darjeeling and Nainital and so forth.
These days, BECAUSE there are many such "good" schools, most "name" schools in Kathmandu can easily boast of illustrious parents and guardians themselves. And STX has NO particular edge in this "we have big shots as parents" game anymore. And that is precisely my point: that STX today is a lot more democratic/egalitarian than it was, say, in the '70s, and that's a damn good thing, worth celebrating.
[Meantime, I have observed other schools gradually going from egalitarianism to elitism, but let's not digress.]
And so, whatever strains of elitism -- because of particularly locked-in history and geography -- there WERE in the past, they are no longer applicable to STX of 2003.
Besides, for the last 10 years, the population of Kathmandu has been so diverse in terms of district-representation and the corresponding that most schools in Kathmandu can easily boast of having students if not from 75 zillas, then certainly from 14 anchals.
And STX too is no exception. The parents of today's STX students -- paying one of the cheapest tuitions around, at less than Rs. 1000 a month -- come from all strata of Kathmandu society, and from all sorts of geographic and professional backgrounds.
In other words, for STX and other schools in Kathmandu, they don't have to go out to recruit a DIVERSE student body. Kathmandu's milieu itself is ethnically/professionally and religiously diverse a catchment area.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| Matepani |
Posted
on 20-Jul-03 09:11 AM
>>>The figure from the principal is the one after the major overhaul of Godavari organization. "
>>>>No.
>>>>The figures are for this academic year: 2003.
Isn't "2003" "after" the major overhaul of Godavari? ;-)
>>in our very class I can tell you almost 90% student's parent's were big shot.<<
>>>Fine.
So you do admit the Elitism on STX's part..
Yes I totally agree with the rest of your print. The scenario has changed with oodles of "Boarding Schools" mushrooming in the capital.
STX has itself become one of those high -end schools but with comparatively cheaper fee.
If anyone of us feel that operation model of STX was very good during 60's 70's and even 80's when there was no alternative "boarding schools"( term I have applied as commonly understood in our society), then dont you think its time STX be moved away from KTM to some other towns( like the one in Bandipur if I am correct) instead?
Just a thought!
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| dhocholecha |
Posted
on 20-Jul-03 10:43 AM
As a Godavari Xaverian, I agree with Ashu jis responses to GP ji. However, I would like to add a little to Ashu jis The Jesuit priests at St. Xavier's are all Catholics, and Catholics, as a rule, are NOT into conversion and proselytization.
I generally agree with that statement. But what is one to make of, among other things, crucifixes hanging in every classroom, of students being taught the 10 Commandments in moral science classes, and made to recite the Lords Prayer (Our father who art in heaven &)? Viewed in isolation, crucifixes can be seen as an artifact and a proud and open expression of the Jesuits faith. Fine. The Lords Prayer? Well, prayer can be a balm for ones soul, and the 10 Commandments has good things to teach us, like love thy neighbor, for instance (I am not so sure about thou shalt not commit adultery, thoughkidding!).
Granted the priests werent actively trying to convert/proselytize the students like the missionariesJesus was never mentioned, attending chapel wasnt mandatory, and no one in my batch convertedbut to me, taken together, all the above point to at least a subtle, subversive attempt at Christian indoctrination. My god (not Jesus!), I was ten, eleven years old then in Godavari!
Finally, responding to Neta ji (I think) from a cousin thread: we, in Godavari, were indeed punished for speaking Nepali, if caught or reported. That is fact. We were punished with the dreaded point cuts, a peculiarly Godavarian invention, but never fined (we werent allowed to keep money; it had to be deposited at the tuck shop ). One can interpret this as cultural imperialism, but also as a radical lesson in English language acquisition.
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| dhocholecha |
Posted
on 20-Jul-03 11:21 AM
Could someone kindly instruct me on how to keep the dashes, the apostrophes and the quotation marks, without them appearing as square blocks in the posting? I know they make for tortured reading. Thanks!
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| GP |
Posted
on 20-Jul-03 04:52 PM
The information on private school is so scattered, that the entropy is getting too high. What to take and what not to take. I will keep Ashu's posting to squeeze the flatter distribution of information in my collection to make it more slimmer. I am still wondering on myself why could not I meet a ex-St. X who came from lower class Nepali: whose
father was khardar or peon or local shop (small tea-shop) keeper, but, why do I meet
only the sons of elite class nepalis, while Ashu and I know its schooling fees are cheaper. What is that third factor ? I am not convinced from Ashu's claim that cheaper means access to lower class. I will not reject the information that "cheaper", but, made it for elites: to get access to hidden agenda, as a part of large scale PACKAGE. As Ashu knows very well, "there is nothing free lunch", why should a school be dedicated with a cheap fees for elites who could really afford higher fees? Why the fees are cheaper than the production cost? IN 1990S, I remember American Presidents used to blame to
Japanese for selling things in lower than production price? Why? Now, I know it very
well, because I have been here a part of this system. Yes, peoples do have reasons
to sell things lower than the real production cost, when we have very large scale
plan and package, thats what I guess we hear the word "subsidized---a kind of free lunch, indeed?--"? "Subsidized" is not real subsized, you offer "subsidy" and "get indirect subsidy............ in an infinite chain of events". I am not going to explain the chain of events. The way Ashu defends his "Catholic" teachers is also a subsidy in return to subsidized education. Those who do not believe this mechanism, better read a article on TIME/NEWSWEEK (around May/June issue on "Evan-angelism" how they operate, and also you can read a recent article on Iraq why Saddam used to spray holy water before you drunk it ............... ". "Subsidy" pays "subsidy".
The first subsidy "St. X" got is after its head informed HMG/Nepal about Sir Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norge's success to get on top of Everest, Radio Nepal became first to announce the world that was supposed to be announed in UK on Queen Elizabeth's coronation day. St. X and St. M survived 2028 new education system's nationalization schemes on all private schools. None other survived, but, only St. X and St. M, the reason was the subsidy on the news. (told by someone who was implementing the
scheme). When St. X and St. M survived the whole plan failed and resistance came
from other schools, why subsidy on St. X only ............. gradually the scheme
was failed. ............. St. X knew the power of subsidy to kids of elite. They also
know that the kids will defend the school.
When you get subsidy in something, remember "no free lunch phrase" and be prepared to offer another "paid subsidy = received subsidy * (1+ interest) " after sometime.
A real example of subsidy: In Japan foreigners are usually excused for delays and errors in their work, "gai-koku-jin wa dekinai kara ii yo". This subsidy "=excuse" pays back to the other foreigners, when the capable foreigners who are precise and do not make mistake, can not get any responsibility equal to japanese, complain that they are not fairly treated. This is how they are paid back for "subsidy=excuses" received by fellow "poor" foreigners. So, there is nothing free lunch and the subsidy to schooling fees to sons of elite school is paid back through the access "subsidy" to run missionaries around the country.
GP
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| dautari |
Posted
on 20-Jul-03 06:18 PM
Interesting observations. However, I still don't believe that the priests at STX were trying to impose christianity upon us. I never studied at Godavari. I spent my entire ten years + the two years of ISC at Jawalakhel. I never felt any intrusion from Christianity. We were kids and we never linked crucifix and our morning prayers to Jesus Christ. I don't remember any of our moral science teachers talking about Jesus Christ either - even during ISC (Fr.Brooks taught us moral science in campus). We did not have the privilege of attending the classes of Fr.Bailey but when we were still in 6/7 class we knew that Fr.Bailey gave us lessons from the Bhagvat Gita.
There was no rule for speaking only english at Jawalakhel either. I wish they had that rule. Because my spoken english is worse than my written english.
It's true that a majority of students at STX came from elite class. But what is elite class? In my observation, about 50 percent of my classmates were from upper middle class. In our poverty stricken country that will have to be called elite. But just a handful of my classmates were from high society. I myself come from a middle class family. Of course, there are hardly any children of the downtrodden people at STX but are there any in most of the big schools in Nepal?
My parents tell me that coming from a middle class family, they never expected me to pass the entrance exams. They had made arrangements to have me admitted to Anand Kuti. However they had taken me to the STX entrance exams just let me have the "expereince". They were surprised to see my name on the list when the results were posted.
Like I said before, there were many in our class who came from middle class families like mine. I do not know if my batch was the exeption to the "elite" rule but that was what I observed.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 20-Jul-03 07:50 PM
GP-ji wrote:
"I am still wondering on myself why could not I meet a ex-St. X who came from lower class Nepali: whose father was khardar or peon or local shop (small tea-shop) keeper, but, why do I meet only the sons of elite class nepalis."
GP-ji, there are little over 3000 STX alums about there. Of them, how many have you met to reach your above conclusion? If your argument is all based on your own
personal experiences, that' s perfectly fine.
But as an engineer, you will agree that one should NOT use one's personal experiences to make generalizations about anything in public space.
That said, when you are next in Kathmandu, I'd be happy to have you meet the son of
a peon in Patan, son of a rice farmer in Chapa Gaun, and the son of a shop-keeper in Mangal Bazaar, Patan . . . all of whom did go to STX. After meeting them, you can then come back and report on Sajha, hai?
******************
On the issue of cheaper fees:
You seem very suspicious about cheaper fees.
Fair enough.
But let me make it clear to you that STX does NOT receive grants from the Pope in Rome, nor does it receive money from America, nor too does it receive money from
the Nepal government. You can verify this yourself when you are next in Kathmandu.
The school's primary source of funds is the tuition fees, which, in a simple back-of-the-envelope hisab, ROUGHLY comes out to:
Say, Rs. 1000 per month x 1150 kids x 12 months = 1,38,00,000/year.
Since more than 25 lakh (almost 20 per cent) is given out as scholarships, then the total would be: 1 karod 13 lakh every year from fees alone.
This is how STX -- which is registered as a non-profit institution and NOT as, thanks to Ram Sharan Mahat, other schools have done, as a private sector company -- attempts to meet its annual operating expenses.
Subsidy?
What subsidy, GP-ji?
**************
"St. X and St. M survived 2028 new education system's nationalization schemes on all private schools."
No.
Not at all.
After 1977, STX followed the new Education Plan; its students started taking the SLC exams, and the school became a Nepali medium school. This historical fact does NOT support your argument.
[BTW, It's worth mentioning here -- as a matter of historical interest -- that the architects of the New Education Plan, Chiran Shumsher Thapa and Narayan Prasad Shrestha both, took their sons out of STX and sent them abroad shortly after the implementation of the New Education Plan at STX. Aside: The Panchayati mavens were such that they wouldn't let their own kids go through what they would ardently prescribe to the rest of the Nepalis. For more on New Education, please read my article in Himal Magazine of Sept/Oct 1994.]
**************************
>>>better read a article on TIME/NEWSWEEK (around May/June issue on "Evan-angelism"<<<
GP-ji,
There are evangelical Christians in Nepal. When I was in Dhading zilla early this year, I was told, there are over 200 churches there.
But let's get our apples and oranges straight. STX Jesuit priests are Catholics and NOT evangelical protestants. Sure, one can, as an adult, rail against all the Christian icons one was exposed to as a kid in Godavari and Jawalakhel, but the final question is: How many students changes their religions convert because of early Christian influences? And the answer is: Very few, probably; and among them, such as our Montou, made choices as ADULTS later on.
As an engineer, you know that a few out of 3000+ is hardly a significant number to get worked up about.
Moreover, the fact that even hard-core religious right-wingers such as Achyut Raj Regmi
of Viswo Hindu Mahasangh (Kathmandu chapter) would send his son to be educated by Catholic priests at STX for 10 long years should tell you that how khattam the Jesuit Fathers really were/are at conversion and proselytization!!
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 20-Jul-03 08:03 PM
"I am still wondering on myself why could not I meet a ex-St. X who came from lower class Nepali: whose father was khardar or peon or local shop (small tea-shop) keeper, but, why do I meet only the sons of elite class nepalis." ......... GP
GP ji, interesting observations there! Going by your logic and therefore conclusion:
The elitists must *hang* out with the elitists.
Therefore, You, yourself Must be one too....and, do not find the opportunity of "slumming" with those "less elite" SXSers!!!
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| GP |
Posted
on 20-Jul-03 08:06 PM
Duatari and others,
I think this thread is getting interesting and making me feel more comfortable that St. X looks a bit different from what I heard before. I still could not understand why they interview parents before admitting student to the school. Another thing, I don't understand, why they invest ? if they don't have any hidden agenda, while they
are run by the donation of missionaries?
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| GP |
Posted
on 20-Jul-03 08:41 PM
Ashu,
Yes, I have from my college days, trying to find someone who studied in St. X from
economically lower class family, but, I am always surprised why I don't? I will be
pleased to see / meet or hear about a few examples who are from lower class (econoically).
Some of those who went to St. X and talked to them, said that St. X in interviews with parents usually make sure that their kids will be followed up by parents, economically or politically, or others be powerful enough to be successful after graduation from school. I wanted to see a contrast.
Don't get me wrong.
Out of all private schools, I still have highest faith on the graduates of St. X, they are made more independent, and their networking is excellent probably because of Godavari AA. If the political system gets better, they can change the face of Nepal through their independent and joint capabilities. And, 3000+ means a very big number.
GP
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| by |
Posted
on 20-Jul-03 09:49 PM
GP-ji,
In your effort to meet someone who went to STX and is not from elite family background, you are most certainly welcome to visit me at my house. While my father is not a peon or khardar, we are not what you call an elite of Kathmandu either. I think we are right smack in the middle of middle class Nepali family. And as far as I can remember, most of my classmates were just like me. Sure there were some Jar-saab ka chora-haru, some wealthy businessmen ka naati-haru, and so on. And there were few who had scholarships of some sort. But as I said, most were regular Jagire's children.
And as far as proselytization goes, all through 1st Grade to O Levels,I was never made subject to any such effort - formal, informal or tacit. It is true, as Dautari mentioned, each of our classrooms had a small wooden crucifix stuck on the wall. And yes, we did recite "our lord in heaven..." prayer in the assemblies. And further yes, Bible Knowledge was part of the curriculum (only) in the O levels. These supposed influences did not convert my religious belief, but rather, they made me more in touch with my own hindu-buddhist faith. I am sure, most if not all, of my fellow Xaverians will honestly agree with me.
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| GP |
Posted
on 20-Jul-03 10:01 PM
This is called seeding:
"And yes, we did recite "our lord in heaven..." prayer in the assemblies. And further yes, Bible Knowledge was part of the curriculum (only) in the O levels. "
If you have not read the article on "Evangelism" published in NEWSWEEK/TIME a month or so ago, its better to read and undersand. After reading those two sentences, I can now believe more that all "subsidy" in St. X is longterm seeding plan. Its like a chaite Dhan kheti in Nepali pakha parbat. (I wish you know the difference between Chaite Dhan kheti and regular Ashare Dhan kheti).
Thank you for your kindness to inform whole scenario to me on those two sentences.
It should close my eagerness to find the reason for "subsidization of school fees in St. X". Chharlanga bho aba ta.
GP
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| ashu |
Posted
on 20-Jul-03 11:07 PM
GP-ji,
You have chosen to focus on only one aspect of BY's posting and ignore the MORE IMPORTANT point.
Allow me to explain.
BY wrote: ""And yes, we did recite "our lord in heaven..." prayer in the assemblies. And further yes, Bible Knowledge was part of the curriculum (only) in the O levels."
But look closely at the result of all that.
The result is NOT what you seem to think at all.
And you have to go NOT by your prejudices and what you read in Newsweek
According to BY, the result is that :"These supposed influences did not convert my religious belief, but rather, they made me more in touch with my own hindu-buddhist faith."
So, you see, even after reciting all that "our lord in heaven", the result is that BY -- and many others -- ended up "more in touch with [their] own hindu-buddhist faith."
Now, isn't that interesting?
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| shaiva |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 12:02 AM
To sprinkle a little water on the fat in the frying pan:
1. It is not true that STX or STM is not subsidized. They got the gift of free land and building for schools that are not open to all. This is subsidy. Ranas subsidized the missionaries to spread Christianity in Nepal.
2. There are more Sachib's and Mantri's and Jarsap-Kar Sap's sons and daughters in STX and STM than any other school in Nepal. To be born to such parents is certainly an advantage. May be they are more meritorious also. But their contribution to Nepali society is a vey well kept secret.
3. It is nearly impossible to get admission in STX or STM if you are not from "a good" family or if you are not close to some "big person". Unlike other good schools, entrance examination of STX and STM is a complete sham.
4. It is true that Godavari has been 'down graded' under public pressure of that locality.
5. If STX and STM were to close today, "average" Nepalese would lose nothing.
6. STX and STM should be encouraged to close shop and shift their mission of religious conversion to Kalikot or Jumla.
7. Having STX and STM in the valley of Pashupatinath is an insult for all the Hindus of the world. The Nepalese King is the king of all Hindus. He must close down STX and STM forthwith without much ado.
May Lord Pashupatinath Bless Us All.
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| GP |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 12:05 AM
Ashu,
I understand what you mean. Yes, when we debate on religious topics with followers of another religion or see other praying more, being humanbeing we realize the importance of our own faiths. I have no doubt on that. But, I am concerned with LEAKAGE, and the today its a leakage, but, I read in some economics books that if our great parents at the time banking system started have deposited just one dollar in bank as fixed deposit, today we could buy what not? In Goa the Portugese came around 500 years back and now Goa Peoples are proud to call themselves more Portugese, less Indians, same with Philipinos.... The missionaries, even that article in NEWSWEEK/TIME, says send Evangelic or use Evangelism --seeding-- have vision of 100 or 200years, and they do not rush the ways Pakistani rulers in Bangaldesh rushed to turn Hindus to non-Hindu by killing and torturing peoples and changed in a couple of years.
Catholics seems to slower in getting return compared to Protestants, but, the schools like St. X's ultimate motive is to create a mechanism that can sustain and expand cchristianity within the soil. Until then, they work at very very slow pace and do not
distrub the elite class so that elite class do not object the seeding mechanism. ...
This is what I find. This is what I feel. This is what that article in NEWSWEEK/TIME
clarifies in very short form. Its a kind of alarm. Iraq is going to victim of the Evangelism.
Of course, the education given by St. X is commendable, but, my point is lets see it, at who's expense the students are getting Subsidized --lower than the product cost-- price. I think this part should be discussed. With other private schools, they are all profit --monetary-- motivated, they have no long term goal. These immediate profit motivated schools are like petrol engined three wheeler, and St. X are like Re-chargable Battery based three-wheelers. If you are thinking of 1 year period, petrol based Vikram tempo is worst, because it makes our environemnt dark, smokey. But, if you want to see what happens after 10years or 20years, the rechargable battery is much more trouble maker, because what are we going to do with those unusable old batteries ? Where are we going throw them? Are we just going leave them in Teku
or Thankot or Kathmandu Metropolitan will collect and use in landfill? So, the battery that looked so wonderful at the beginning is trouble maker at the end. For me the so called "clean battery" three wheeler is like "Baje le khayeko rin, nati le tirne" [a loan granted to and used by grandparents, but, carried over to grandkids? ] I wonder whether we should burden grandkids? The new religion, another problem: socially, economically, politically. Therefore, St. X has given good loan to parents, but, in next century the grandkids will pay back including interests, and that will be heavy. ....
Well, those who graduated from ST. X will surely defend the St. X, just the way the poor grandfather got loan from bank who expected it to be paid, but, grandkid had to pay indeed.
I will opt vikram tempo compared to rechargable battery based tempos. My idea is to improve the quality of Vikram tempo and put more checks on Vikram tempo, because the carbon di-oxide is easily reclycable, compared to the battery. I was very much surprised to a plant made 2000m (2km) below ground level, to store such un-disposable garbage, and they are going to store it for 200years. I can realize the effect of long term waste and short term. We have to look at long term goals, sometime. Nepal is not for only our grand parents to our grandkids, but, we should have lasting mechanism, so that grandparent's waste will not be burden to grandkids.
I regret if the example gives wrong meaning, but, my intentions are just to make thing easier to understand.
GP
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| by |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 05:06 AM
What more can I say?
Here we have two guys, who are capable of critical thinking, who have spent 11 years in the said environment, who say that they neither felt nor experienced any threat of prosetylization efforts whatsoever, and yet, GP goes on to assert exactly the opposite based on his reading of some general article which has very little connection with the facts on the ground.
I don't know whether I should feel bad because GP virtually insults my intelligence or feel sorry for his lack of human understanding. But I do know it is not worth my time to convince someone who adamantly believes in certain theory and refuses to see the evidence that provess otherwise.
Anyway... time to move on.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 05:42 AM
GP-ji wrote:
"Catholics seems to slower in getting return compared to Protestants, but, the schools like St. X's ultimate motive is to create a mechanism that can sustain and expand cchristianity within the soil. Until then, they work at very very slow pace and do not
distrub the elite class so that elite class do not object the seeding mechanism. ... "
GP-ji,
It's quite obvious that no amount of
counter-evidence,
counter-arguments,
logical reasoning,
anecdotal snippets and
even FIRSTHAND accounts from former students who had had years of sangat with the Jesuits
is ever going to change your mind about the so-called "ultimate motive" of STX Jesuits, who are NOT -- again, for the last time -- evangelical Christians to begin with.
When even the officials of Biswo Hindu Mahasangh are apparently comfortable sending their kids to STX, then, obviously, your theory is open to question.
For your information, why, even the word "catholic" has POSITIVE meanings in English language, meaning 1) "of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive . . . and, 2) Including or concerning all humankind; universal". [Source: dictionary.com]
Then again, one can only challenge your ideas and hope to change them with better ideas. But one CANNOT change what you really, really, really want to believe about other people anyway.
Finally, I would think that it's fair to say that RATHER than spreading Christianity (a proposition for which it's dificult to find supportive evidence, and you certainly have provided NO evidence to support your theory), what STX did was help bring modernity to Nepal and Nepali educational system.
And it was this modernity (exemplified by extracurricular activities, boarding life, English language, analytical thinking and so on) that was very much coveted by the middle-class/upper-middle-class residents of Kathmandu for their sons in the '60s, '70s, '80s and the '90s, and it was this package of modernity that was actually STX's unique selling proposition (USP), so to speak, for many, many years before other schools too started to catch up and do equally well if not better.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| ashu |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 06:31 AM
GP-ji wrote:
"Out of all private schools, I still have highest faith on the graduates of St. X, they are made more independent, and their networking is excellent probably because of Godavari AA."
Thank you for your vote of confidence, GP-ji.
The greatest gift STX could give its students was to make sure that the boys would grow up to be able to make a living, any living, of their choice. [My class alone -- those of us whon are in Nepal today --includes two guys who have gone on to fight wars in Kosovo, a jet-setting international public-health consultant, a strategist for the Royal Nepal Army, a Himalayan-orchid specialist who hires PhD biochemists, several who have started and have been running their own businesses in Nepal. And all are either Hindu
or Buddhist, by the way!]
Sure, not all STX grads have become scholars and academicians, but I would say
that many remain very interesting guys with off-beat passions and interests. In Kathmandu's private-sector alone-- from banks to software firms to hotels to media to airlines to trading houses to multi-nationals -- the sheer number of STX grads in influential positions is stunningly high.
Again, thank you for your vote of confidence.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| SITARA |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 07:54 AM
"It's quite obvious that no amount of
counter-evidence,
counter-arguments,
logical reasoning,
anecdotal snippets and
even FIRSTHAND accounts from former students who had had years of sangat with the Jesuits
is ever going to change your mind about the so-called "ultimate motive" of STX Jesuits, who are NOT -- again, for the last time -- evangelical Christians to begin with."... Ashu
Bingo Ashu ji! That was an excellent conclusion to a fragmented, illogical argument put forth by those who have made up their minds about SXS and SMS based on hearsay, little knowledge and prejudice!
But not surprisingly, even the KKK, the Aryan Nations (white supramacist group), Nazi Skinheads have... "literature" to support their claims and/or justify their bias and prejudice!!!!
|
| SITARA |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 08:06 AM
As far as homemade, kitchen lab theories on "Seeding":
*Seeding* is possible IFF the environment is hospitable to the such methods of agriculture. Try *seeding* everywhere except in places where rice is a staple diet and a cash crop! Wish I could *seed* rice in my back yard, would not have to buy rice... and hey I would even be willing to try intense, interactive seeding with tilling, irrigating, and all the works! BUT ALAS, it won't work because of the protective foliage of the tall, lush trees in my backyard.... so NO foreign elements of rice-growing can thrive for me to become a rice farmer or even grow my own rice for my own consumption!!!!
|
| SITARA |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 08:09 AM
*Seeding* is possible IFF the environment is hospitable to such methods of agriculture.*
|
| RBaral |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 08:16 AM
I went to a publick school in Pokhara. During my career, education, and living up, I have hanged out with several STX grads. I find them to be nice, friendly, and well-informed.
My school, Amarsing, was founded to teach Ex-Gurkha children. Long before I joined Amarsing, its name was Soldier's Board High.Most of my Amarsing friends joined British or Indian Gurkha-- being a Gurkha used to be a dream. Although, Amarsing itself never encouraged us, as a school, to become a Gurkha or a Soldier. Thanks to Gurkha Organization for building such a fine school in Pokhara.
I think this analogy holds with STX.
Namaste. Rishi
|
| dautari |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 09:48 AM
Thanks Rishi Ji,
I certainly hope there are many ppl like you who think rationally.
As for parents' interviews, I do not know about that. When I was admitted back in 1978 ( I started class 1 in 79), parents did not have to go for interviews. I had to sit thru an entrance exams. I still remember Surya Sir asking me IQ questions, and Fr.Chambers holding my hand when he led me from one classroom to another (I was kinda left behind when my group went ahead to the next exam room .. I do not remember exactly why.) My parents certainly were not interviewed.
G-P Ji, there were certainly no Jarsaap ka chhora in my class. Let me tell you again that most of my classmates belonged to the middle class family like myself. My father was a lieutenant in the Army .. no, not the young educated liutenant .. but a soldier who had risen from the ranks .. barely literate with Army First Class education that was considered equivalent to SLC minus English. He had come from a remote village in the east and joined the army as a common soldier. My mother was (and still is) an illiterate housewife. If STX had been an elites-only school, I would certainly not have got admitted because no relative of mine had ever been a Xavierian (how could they, they were all in the villages at the time).
And why do the most of the non-Xavierians pick on STX / SMS. Do other schools like Galaxy, Gyanodaya, etc close their doors to the elites? What do you think of schools like Rato Bangala and Shuvatara where the fees are so high that those other than the high society people cannot even think of sending their kids there.
Take Shaiva ji for example, he seems to be dead against STX. Why?
In the realities of life, it does not matter which school we went to. Just because we went to StX or Budhanilkantha, does not mean we have an edge above others. Every school has their fair share of good and bad students.
|
| GP |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 04:50 PM
I think its time to close "suspend" this topic for the time being. I still have positive image on ST. X graduates and confidence that they will change the face of Nepal provided political stability exists in Nepal.
I will keep a note of what has been said here by Ashu plus supporting posters R. Baral (as you know we shared the same school in Pokhara: Amar Singh High School), "by", dautari, Matepani and dhocholecha. Rest others may fall in category "every thread has good and bad posters". Bad [based on my personal judgements: their name as written before will never appear in my postings even if they have best postings, no concessions.] posters are to be neglected. Since I do not mention their name here does not mean all of those whose name are not included in this "thanks list" are not necessarily "Bad Posters for me". Some of them might be there. Lets Chor ko khutta tan bhanda kasale afno khutta tancha. Some of them's postings are very personally motivated, and I have to create a "nick name based filters". Apology to readers for the second part of this paragraph. Newton's third law rules the world, thus, "reject ideas not the persons" also applies to those who follow it, and "reject certain persons whatsoever be the contents/ideas in their posting" applies to those who follow it.
GP
|
| Matepani |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 06:18 PM
GPji
tapaile mero naam pani Bad list ma rakhnu bhayecha ni :-)
If you follow my postings in this thread I am simply trying to reiterate the fact that STX motives is certainly cryptic if not dangerous. Thats is simply your concern put in a milder and sweet-coated capsule.
Since nobody gave me a plausible answer to why the classes like Values classes were taught at Isc. level and why there weer crucifixes in every class room, I opine that people have some concerns. As GP put it, there is no doubt about the quality of the education imparted..Its just the other W's that we were trying to discuss....and hope STX folks give a second thought about it instead of blindly supporting your alma mater.
Dautariji wrote
"And why do the most of the non-Xavierians pick on STX / SMS. Do other schools like Galaxy, Gyanodaya, etc close their doors to the elites? What do you think of schools like Rato Bangala and Shuvatara where the fees are so high that those other than the high society people cannot even think of sending their kids there."
Dautariji, you seem to loose on the crux of the matter. There is absolutely no doubt about the elitism of the above mentioned schools. I totally agree with you that fees are higher in these schools.The point is these schools are open in their policies- target elites, make money. But STX's mission is suppose to be different than these schools. Yet, STX is teemed with Elites FROM NEPAL( I highlight the term FROM NEPAL to bring forward Nepalese context in defining elites).
I would not mind STX tomorrow rasing the fee ceiling and saying we target Elites...
If STX wasn't all about ELITE, can anyone answer WHY there is a FUSS over Godavari organization change? Why cant the same quality maintained at STX with local kids at the school?
History speaks...Fr. Moran was invited by Rana prime minister and all other elites at that time because they didn't want their children to travel to India. If not Why would rana regime INVITE someone to open the school when they would not let schools be opened elsewhere?
Open question to all STXs.Whats wrong with STX moved to Kalikot and Jajarkot...? I guess KTM was near that when STX got started.... ?
|
| thapap |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 06:48 PM
matepani jyu,
most of us who are posting here, I believe attended STX SCHOOL.
I think when you say ISC level, it is STX COLLEGE; (which was established from 1989) and I did not attend it along with lot of folks who are writing in this thread. so do not know about what happens there and what they do.
as far as "crucufixes" in every class-room and the building it is there as a symbol.
What's wrong with the symbol? Its run by the Jesuits and they have it for their beliefs. that does not mean that you have to make a cross at your heart everyday. that does not even mean that you have to follow it. Symbol is there to be perceived and respected.
Its like asking why do HINDUS go to SYMBHUNATH? It is a buddhist shrine. of course but that's where the greatness is. You go their no matter you are hindu or buddhist.
so,for 10 years I was in STX[ from grade 1 to 10] i never once thought about the crucifixes neither the cross in the wall... it was there but did not bother me at all..
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 08:22 PM
>>>Open question to all STXs.Whats wrong with STX moved to Kalikot and Jajarkot...? I guess KTM was near that when STX got started.... ? <<<<<
For your information, there are THREE St. Xavier's-related and Jesuit-affiliated schools outside of the Kathmandu Valley. There is one in Damak. There was one in Bandipur (called Notre Dame, which has been, much to the grief of many parents and students and local people, shut down by the Maoists), and there is one other, I forget exactly where.
St. Xavier' s Fathers helped start, run and manage all of those schools, thogh they have been willing to relinquish control to others.
So, yes, the Jesuits of St. Xavier's have attempted to expand -- by recruiting Nepali teachers -- outside of the Kathmandu Valley in the last 15 years.
I hope this info answers your question.
In addition, the Jesuits -- in keeping with their worldlwide scholarly traditions -- have helped advance of frontiers of knowledge in Nepal.
Fr. Stiller is still an authority on the early history of modern Nepal. Read his book "The Silent Cry", which details the history of of the Nepali people AFTER the reign of Prithivi Narayan Shah. Fr. Miller is an authority on shamanism. And Fr. Locke wrote his PhD dissertation on Buddhist bihars. In the mid-'80s, late Fr. Law spent seven years, teaching physics at village schools in Falay.bas VDC in Dhaulagiri Zone. And Fr. Greg is an Oxford-educated scholar on Newari Buddhism. If you read up on Jesuit history worldwide, you will find that they have been excellent, thorough scholars.
*************
Finally, "why the classes like Values classes were taught at Isc. level and why there weer crucifixes in every class room"
Well, let's get real here: STX is a Jesuit-run school, NOT a school run by Biswo Hindu Mahasangh.
For better or worse, the Jesuits talk about values and morality, and their idea was that anyone else can also teach the kids the same physics, the same math and the same English. And so, the Jesuits' OFFER, for better or worse, was that they would also teach their version of values, with which you were FREE to disagree. [Their rallying cry, which might sound corny today, was: "Give us a boy; and we'll give back a man."]
But mind you, the "values" taught, at leadt to us, were NOT Christian values per se,
but general "good behaviour" values, applicable to any context, any society. [Aside:
My own reading of Bible at STX, for instance, has helped me better understand, of all things, works of English literature and aspects of Western Civilization, which have,
let's face it, tons of Biblical references. In fact, with an STX friend, I recently spent
an enjoyable hour discussing the supposed Biblical references iinherent in that movie Matrix Reloaded :-) ]
So, yes, the Jesuits have certain ideas as to what kind of values they wanted to impart to the kids. If one did not agree with that, then, one had every right to DISAGREE and even NOT enrol in that school. [I know -- me being me -- disagreed with many of Fr. Brooks' thoughts, for instance, but, you now what, even after all the agreements and disagreements, he still wrote first-rate recommendations for me, praising my so-called sense of intellectual independence. How many teachers in Nepal can tolerate being questioned again and again by a smart-ass teenager in and out of the class, and still remain good friends with him for years and years?]
To me, on he whole, the catholicism of the STX Jesuits, and their willingness to let the boys express their own individuality (within bounds, of course) have been a great source of inspiration and admiration.
No wonder then, IN ADDITION to the usual crop of relatively boring doctors, engineers and economists :-), STX has gone on to produce writers, journalists, thinkers, academic researchers, cartoon animators, film-makers, music-video makers, ad copy writers, an Winter Olympic snowboarder and a host of very interesting, fascinating and quirky characters.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| Tropical |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 09:47 PM
A question to Xavarians.
Why did a few students make cross across their chest when passing through the Bagmati river?
|
| jhismisebihani |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 10:13 PM
I couldn't help adding in my two cents in this discussion...so here I go. First of all, I am a STX alumni.
If someone asked me what I am most grateful about my education at STX, my answer would be that it helped me become more than just an engineer...it helped me become a decent human being, NOT a perfect human being but a decent human being.
STX gives its students an opportunity to explore their talents, skills that they would otherwise never know existed...it gives students memories that they can never get tired of talking...more importantly, it tries to make students more than just what they do for living.
So why not value education? Are we simply born to be JUST accountants, engineers, doctors or whatever we choose our profession to be? As a doctor, engineer. accountant, is it not necessary to have that ability and courage to see right from wrong? and more importantly to have the strength to say NO I will NOT take that "GHOOSH".
How many of us have that will power to say no to "ek lakh", "dui lakh" for a "saano sahi"
saying ok to we know is NOT ok?
Don't we need more of that kind of education in our country? That is one of the charms of STX, the educators at STX are ahead of time for our country...while most schools are busy preparing their students for SLC, educators at STX say, no let's also teach our kids to act/direct plays, recite poems in elocution contests,throw hoops, play rugby...
and all this is not that hard to put together...schools just need to have that vision, desire, wisdom...logistics will follow. Unfortunately many schools don't or didnt and STX did and does. STX is therefore more than about just religion.
Someone asked why was there a cross in the classrooms? My question is so what if there is? I am a devout Hindu and will always be...but my belief in my faith is strong enough not to be intimadated by that cross...as long as someone does not come knocking on my door with Bible in his/her hand preaching to me about JC against my will, I do not have problem with either Christianity or Christians. If either my parents or I had problems with Christianity, STX woud have been a wrong place to go to but neither my family neither I had that problem. It is a catholic school hence the cross...that is something to be expected.
If you go to any educational instituion with St. in it anywhere in the world, I ll bet you anything that you will see symbols of Christianity there. Does that mean, the instituion implies that everyone should convert to Christianity?
At any rate, the 11-12 years that I spend at STX, I cannot recall even a single student from my batch converting to Christianity.
I was especially alarmed by what Shaiva said..what he/she wrote sounded to me like a Hindu version of Taliban...zero tolerance for anything else besides your own faith...
One thing I have always been proud of about being a Hindu in Nepal has been our peaceful and accepting nature...We coexist with other religions. It will be a very sad day for our culture, country if the views held by Shaiva ever becomes the majority view...
Going back to the topic about STX, it is not THE perfect school but it is one of the best there is out there in Nepal and I am proud and grateful to have had the opportuniy to be a part of it.
I apologize if I am sounding like a preacher (hey I went to STX for more than a decade, I had better learned something right?) and I am not really defending Christianity or arguing for proselytizating..I am just arguing against being intolerant.
signing off,
JB
|
| GP |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 10:59 PM
Malai Laaj lagyo. Kina?
Yo thread ma mero ID appear bhai yo thread more than 24hour tyo sajha ko homepage ma kahile tala kahile mathi linger bhai rahada. I wanted it to sink in Sajha.com's black hole. Sathi ho lets stop posting in this thread. Khuuuuuuuuuuuuuub laaaaaaaaz lagyo ke. Ashu le ma mathi ekdaam annaya gare jasto lagyo. Ashu le malai thulo punishment diye jasto lagcha, the punishment does not fit the crime "of raising some questions against ST. X", I committed.
San ji can you kindly remove GP from that title, if Ashu does not mind.
Let this thread sink in Sajha Black hole....... My friends, pls. don't use my name in subject line from now onward, malai ta Laaaaaaaaaaz le bhutukkai po parcha ni ho, I feel that you are punishing me. Its indeed a kind of clever and mental punishment.
GP
|
| Neta_ji |
Posted
on 21-Jul-03 11:30 PM
Great applause to "jhismisebihani"............thanks for cracking down on some bogus speculations raised by some section of the Sajha users.........that was cool brotha..we will keep the Xaverian Spirit
|
| dhocholecha |
Posted
on 22-Jul-03 03:57 AM
My final thoughts on the proselytization/indoctrination issue.
In general, the Catholic priests, as a rule, are not into pedophilia and sexual abuse either, but, unfortunately, such things do occur. Also, just because no one converted does not prove that subversive indoctrination did not take place; it means it failed, for a host of reasons.
To keep things simple, the bottom line is this: If the Jesuits are so innocent of subversive Christian indoctrination, then what is/was their rationale for teaching seven to thirteen year old, largely Hindu/Buddhist students the Lord's Prayer, and having them recite that every day? (I am talking ONLY about boarding-school youngsters in Godavari, those away from home and family.)
Bus tetti ho!
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 22-Jul-03 06:24 AM
GP-ji,
Yesh kura ma laaz mann.oo par.nay kehi chaina.
In fact, thanks to your questions and comments, a lot of misconceptions about STX
can be OPENLY and HONESTLY cleared up with VERIFIABLE evidence in a public
forum like this.
And that's a very good thing.
Sure, STX is NOT a perfect school, nor is it an ideal school for everyone. But I hope our kura-kani here has shown that issues surrounding STX are NOT clear-cut, and are more complex and nuanced than what its usual fire-breathing critics -- with NO firsthand information -- love to paint in stark black and white colors.
To use a corny statement: It's only by engaging in an open kura-kani like this, can we hope to better understand issues involved and get off our various islands of prejudices. That is why, GP-ji, a kura-kani like this is important and urgent.
And so, rather than talking AGAINST one another, GP-ji, we are talking TO and WITH one another, and that is, again, a good thing.
**********
As for so-called "subversive indoctrination", I, for one, remain quite HAPPY about that, and have NO REGRETS whatsoever about having to "go through" it, even when I did
go through it.
Why?
Because even after all that so-called "subversive indoctrination", I, for one, like most STX grads, remain a Hindu [or Buddhist], albeit the one with a BETTER knowledge of, say, BOTH the Bhagvad Gita and the Bible.
Finally, given the UNAVOIDABLE fact even the fire-breathing Hindu right-wingers, the one who are card-carrying members of Biswo Hindu Mahasangh fall over one another to enrol their kids at Christian-run STX, the notion that STX -- which seems to produce graduates with relatively fierce individuality -- engages in ""subversive indoctrination" becomes nothing more than a joke and, ironically, an INSULT to right-wing Hindu parents who desprately want their kids NOT to miss out on the package of modernity that schools such as STX offers.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| dhocholecha |
Posted
on 22-Jul-03 07:07 AM
Thank you! That is all I was seeking, an acknowledgement of a simple, obvious fact: that Christian indoctrination did, indeed, occur. Sure, call it a joke, belittle it, bring in the right-wingers, etc., etc., but my central assertion stands.
Finally, as a fellow Xavierite, I am pleased that you have blossomed into a resolute, happy, no-regrets, knowledgeable kind of guy, despite the indoctrination, or perhaps because of it. They really did take a boy and make a man out of you! All power to you!
The (real) End!
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 22-Jul-03 10:19 AM
>>>an acknowledgement of a simple, obvious fact: that Christian indoctrination did, indeed, occur. <<<<<
No.
Not at all.
The arguments so far have been: Contrary to popular belief, there was NO conversion/proselytization going on at STX. And EVEN IF Christian indoctrination
did occur, the evidence makes you wonder just what kind of indoctrination it really
was when there were: a) NO converts among students and, b) students report that they ended up being MORE sensitive to their own Hindu-Buddhist heritage.
If that's indoctrination, sure, as a Hindu, I'll take that kind of indoctrination anyday.
That was the point.
***********
An analogy: The US currency has this phrase: "In God We Trust".
I wonder why on earth atheists, agnostics, anarchists and skeptics in the US do NOT unite to protest against this VERY PUBLIC "subversive [religious] indoctrination" by
the US Treasury Department, that too using taxpayers' paisa.
What if you do not trust God, any kind of God, at all, and therefore feel humiliated and insulted every time you have to use the US money to buy your dal-bhaat in the US?
What then? How credible would your claim be if you go to the US Supreme Court citing "subversive [religious] indoctrination"? You'll be laughed at.
Likewise, the idea of "subversive indoctrination", as MISAPPLIED to STX, is also LAUGHABLE because as things stood at STX they were:
a) NEITHER subversive (i.e. it upset NO established order of any kind.)
b) NOR does it seem to be indoctrination (i.e. I mean, just what kind of Christian indoctrination is one talking about when again it wins NO apparent converts and ends up making, if some firsthand accounts here are to be believed, students MORE sensitive
to their own Hindu/Buddhist heritage?)
Lousy subversion.
Lousier indoctrination.
Case closed.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| Sadabichar |
Posted
on 22-Jul-03 11:09 AM
Ke ko kach kach ni.... mula, nepali bhayepachhi nepali ni.
|
| ramaychowchow |
Posted
on 22-Jul-03 11:14 AM
If anyone wants to know more about Jesuit and their work in Nepal, please check out this site(see the attached link below) St. Xavier school is very much affiliated with Chicago Province of the Society of Jesus. This might make the discussion more meaningful :
http://www.jesuits-chi.org/
|
| VincentBodega |
Posted
on 22-Jul-03 11:32 AM
>>Why did a few students make cross across their chest when passing through the >>Bagmati river?
Answer from a Xaverian
you wrote "few students" well few students in the Bus could have been Christians...
again you wrote "cross across their chest when passing through the Bagmati river?" well doesnt that say a lot about the culture we carrry? Bagmati is a sacred river in our Hindu beliefs and I dont think any true Christian would have prayed before crossing it.
To be honest with you. I have use the school bus for most of my schooling at St. Xaviers and I havent seen anyone "make cross across their chest," I have seen almost all the kids on the bus touch their heads and their chest repeatedly till the bus goes over the river.
And there was something said about "In God we trust" thinge on our school motto and h ow its similar to the line in the US bill, but isnt it funny that they missed out the next line "FOR GOD AND COUNTRY."
Thanks for reading !!!
--R
|
| Sadabichar |
Posted
on 22-Jul-03 11:38 AM
Ke ko GOD SOD ni,
"GOD" is the most confusing word human-beings created so far.
I wonder if the boka, kukhura, Haans etc pray for GOD when they are being sacrificed to the various idols of gods in Nepal !!!! Think about that. How hypocrites humans are.
|
| Deep |
Posted
on 22-Jul-03 12:10 PM
"..I wonder if the boka, kukhura, Haans etc pray for GOD when they are being sacrificed to the various idols of gods in Nepal .."
maile nepal ma hajjarau boka kukhura huru --aakkal jhukkal haans pani--pants ko pachhadi ko khaltima kapi kochera hineko dekheko chhu pray gardai---tara various goddesses lai---
|
| dhocholecha |
Posted
on 22-Jul-03 02:08 PM
Will all due apologies to GP ji, Sadbichar ji, and others sick and tired of this thread (I am too), please bear with me this one last time. After this, if I break my word and respond again, I promise to eat my shoes!
Given the Bush/Gore debacle and its generally right-wing tilt, The US Supreme Court would be the last place I would go to resove anything. Besides, I am not interested in poring through a tortured analogy that's so distant from the Nepali ground reality under discussion, and which, by implication, imputes certain states of mind (humiliated, insulted) to me, ones that, I believe, I never indicated or claimed. So while I acknowledge the effort and the intellect behind it, I'd rather not chase red-herrings.
Let me then stick to the first part, since "that was the point", as stated, and respond accordingly.
"... the evidence makes you wonder just what kind of indoctrination it really
was when there were: a) NO converts among students and, b) students report that they ended up being MORE sensitive to their own Hindu-Buddhist heritage."
Again, the fact that no one converted does not prove indoctrination did not occur; it just means it failed, for a host of reasons. So (a) what kind of indoctrination was it then, where there were no converts among students?
Well, it was a rather weak, ineffective, and perhaps even laughable one in general; and to the Jesuits' credit, it indicates that they didn't pursue their Christian agenda as aggresssively or as blatantly as some of the missionaries. But it does not mean they did not try IN ANY WAY; they most certaintly did (re: teaching the Lord's Prayer, etc., etc., to a bunch of impressionable Nepali kids in boarding school).
(b) I am glad there were students who reported ending up being more sensitive to their own heritage. I too reached that point three years after graduating from Godavari (ninth grade in Jawalakhel to be specific). So what? That still does not erase the fact that I was taught Christian prayers, among other things, at an age when I didn't know my ass from the hole in the ground, taught to me by those WHO KNEW of their Christian nature, but never told me. That, to me, is subversive indoctrination, plain and simple (and later on, yes, it did upset a very important established (dis)order: MY SOUL! Which, I'm sure, the US Supreme Court has no interest in!).
Lousy subversion? Lousier indoctrination? Perhaps. But subversion and indoctrination nontheless.
Finis!
|
| czar |
Posted
on 22-Jul-03 03:21 PM
Selfishness is part of human nature. Yet for those self-absorbed to a high degree, altruism can be a very threatening and frightening concept. Add to that a liberal dollop of ignorance and you have some that view with a gimlet eye just about all human actions. It is then their constant quest to discern activities that are seemingly threatening and harmful to their interests and pursuits thereof.
Human actions are selfish, verily so, to greater or lesser degrees. Yet, for some, it takes on sinister shades, especially if some actions are contrary to the normal human impulse of doing for self only. This drives them into a tailspin. The existence of do gooders are incomprehensible to them hence must be anomalies or so goes their reasoning. All evidence to the contrary, there has to be some evil design or motive to anything different from their own limited thinking!
Even the most innocent of gestures then seems loaded with hidden meanings of menace ! The more innocuous it is, the more dangerous a shape it assumes ! By gum, it has to be the work of the Devil himself. For who else could be so fiendish as to do things that benefit others? Like inculcate in children a love of learning and a quest for excellence at all times? As ST X does and so in Budanilkantha too. How monstrous !
Quite a number thus afflicted with this kind of 'vision' have infiltrated the ranks of the 'educated' lot. Some of whom are even known to possess advanced degrees and have travelled a fair bit. And yet, for all this, this group tenaciously cling to narrow minded and biased views. Despite all evidence to the contrary. I seem to find that, for such, the pursuit of degrees and the exposure of travel somehow did not alleviate their myopia. Either that, or blinkers are hard to abandon. To accept a clearer and truer view of the world and life must present a terrifying proposition.
Hats off to Ashu for an admirable exhibition of composure and compassion. I mostly lean to buckshot myself. Especially since there's some about who are convinced the Jesuits are close cousins to the Borg!
I have interacted with loads of St. X and Budanilkantha alumni and I have the fondest memories associated with the adventures embarked upon with those friends. Admittedly, among that lot are ones that were none to gentle on my shins on the hockey field or those rogues somehow inveigled me into carrying that heavy bag of rice and fragile fresh eggs whenever we were on long hikes on hot summer days.
In my book, each one of them is a first rate scholar and a gentleman, bar none. So put that in your pipes and smoke it, it'll add iron to your blood.
[I beg indulgence of the female grads as I haven't had the pleasure of meeting any of you, nevertheless, I am certain you all have what it takes to make yourelves, your alma mater and country proud. ]
|
| Bhunte |
Posted
on 22-Jul-03 03:57 PM
Czar ji,
-------In my book, each one of them is a first rate scholar and a gentleman, bar none. So put that in your pipes and smoke it, it'll add iron to your blood. -----
YES, very true...it may also wash or clean brain as well.....
------[I beg indulgence of the female grads as I haven't had the pleasure of meeting any of you, nevertheless, I am certain you all have what it takes to make yourelves, your alma mater and country proud. ] -----
Even in Sajha, WOMEN ARE ENCOURAGED TO WRITE OR APPLY?...
|
| czar |
Posted
on 22-Jul-03 05:16 PM
Pardon me for being so insular as not to have met any of them. I would be delighted to make the aquaintance of any that are around.
To the matter of encouraging women to write and/or apply: Bhuntey, Sir, where them thar ladies are concerned, I've learnt to be mighty careful of what I wish for! :)
In jest.
[The 'In jest' is meant in triplicate, for those that miss the finer print and nuances and go straight to reaching for leather.]
|
| SITARA |
Posted
on 22-Jul-03 05:51 PM
CZAR leather thongs?
And before you blush, I meant for your shoes!!!!
:P
|
| SITARA |
Posted
on 22-Jul-03 05:53 PM
"I promise to eat my shoes! "...dhocholecha
I meant for Dhocholecha ji... something extra for him to chew on?
In jest Dhocholecha ji
:P
|
| Yatree |
Posted
on 22-Jul-03 09:56 PM
czar, Nice going. Do you think you hit the target with your buckshot? I doubt it. So many have missed that target. :)
Hey Sitara, kasai kasai laii timro naam liye pani jibro polchha jasto chha nee, hun!
Stay cool in these hot summer days.
|
| boke |
Posted
on 24-Jul-03 04:34 AM
Some STX alums might be snobs, but most are not. And I think lot of people don't like STX because they are just jealous. Nepal ma chali aayeko pratha nai ho - aru ko khutta taanne. STX is an excellent institution that has done a lot of good for Nepal, but people like GP can't stand the respect it gets, so they try to accuse it of naana thari ka kura haru.
GP, by the way, used to come as Hahoo Guru. He became so irritating with his tuppo na phed ko long postings (posting for the posting sake) that some Sajhaites openly reviled him. He was gone for a while, but he is back with a new nick but same irritating manners again
Tara, this is an open forum with freedom of speech. Anyone can say anything.
ps: I am not an STXer. I am a Budha from Dharan.
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 24-Jul-03 05:46 AM
Boke,
As far as I am concerned, it's perfectly all right for GP-ji and others to be a little "irritating" at times.
As GP-ji's cyber-friend for the last 10 years (I have never met the man, and he says that the FIRST-ever posting he saw on the Interet was mine!), I would actually want
him to be a little irritating, a little questioning, and a little off-beat and a little unpredictable on Sajha.
I say that because Sajha would be an utterly boring place, like a school ko classroom,
if colorful, vibrant, amusing, diverse, strongly opinionated, passionate and even quite contradictory characters such as our GP-ji stopped posting their stuff here.
And each of us can all decide how we can choose to respond to GP-ji's being "irritating".
To me, his being "irritating" about STX, for instance, was an OPPORTUNITY -- and NOT a problem . . . an opportunity, for what it was worth, to set the record straight on STX with verifiable evidence. To my amazement, I myself did not know I knew so much about STX, until I actually started responding to GP-ji's "irritating" points.
On a larger note, working in Nepal for more than two years now, I have learnt that if we -- young professionals -- can master the emotional and logistical skills to find calm and effective ways to work with so many "irritating", off-beat, contradictory, petty and stubborn characters that are too numerous to mention here, then our work too, in whatver way, carries positive value and influence.
Else, it's easy to be end up as a bitter, frustrated person in Nepal, and, I, for one, have no desire to be that, and don't think anyone else wants that either.
If we, as is the temptation, hang out with the like-minded, the "non-irritating" ones all the time, then, the danger is that we'll end up living in some splendid isolation. Better to deal positively with "irritating" charcaters such as GP-ji and learn how to work with them better than rubbish them in any way. Often, people like GP-ji are only expressing, like a lightning rod, the widespread feelings and thoughts.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| Bhunte |
Posted
on 24-Jul-03 06:14 AM
boke ji,
u r now in his idiot list...those whoever write against him will be in that list as he declared in some other thread....welcome to gp's idiot list....ehehehe
|
| marich |
Posted
on 24-Jul-03 06:17 AM
How Does a "BALL of FIRE" stay cool, Me wonders?
|
| SITARA |
Posted
on 24-Jul-03 06:32 AM
Marich ji...
You refering to yourself???? "Goodness, Gracious,...... Great Balls of fire!!!!"
:P
|
| Boke |
Posted
on 24-Jul-03 07:08 AM
Bhunte ji, might I dare say: Idiot lists as idiot is ?
|
| GP |
Posted
on 24-Jul-03 10:47 PM
Ashu ,
I think Ashu is perfect in dealing with peoples, who are extreme like me. Only a few talented peoples realize the importance of hearing what public think of their institution, you should not make a habit of hearing only positive praise, flattery, but, also make
a habit of hearin what is perceived in public about the institute you owe a lot. If you
keep on hearing only positive sides of the institution you respect so much, you will
end up either in isolation or behave like emperor's cloth, and one day you will be
walking naked in the street and still expecting peoples to clap on you.
I know Ashu is exceptional and himself being the best outgoing student of batch 1986,
he does represent the upper tier "cream" of St. X.
Now,
To my cynic opponents in Sajha.com
=======================
No institution is free from other ends, I will just discard "after youread, you chew some part +ve and -ve as a stuff for learning/find a strategy how to deal them and other part you throw out from anotehr ear" those silly postings from the other part of the bandwidth. While writing those postings, I knew very well that there will be some ugly reactions from this band of the colorful spectrum.
FYI, there are many St. X and St. M graduates around me as close or far relatives or friend or friends of friends of mine. I have seen them from close and talked with them very closely. They have no reason to hide what they saw in their 10 or 7 or 2 years of education at ST. X.
But, in Sajha.com, I wonder whether those unverifiable nicknames who claimed to be ex. St. X graduates are really St. X graduates, because they are very far from the conversations --tolerance the peoples around me have shown-- that I had ever enjoyed with St. X. I read somewhere a great quote like "Tolerance is the product of education". Those who are intolerant, but, know read and write, are not educated people, but,they are for me just a bunch of literate people got access to institutions like St. X.
If you are really proud of your institutions like St. X, I guess you should make a habit of listening criticism against you, and ask for data, or source. I agree some are hearsy, but, not all. FYI, even in my own family tree there are some who went to St. X, and if I ever meet you, I can show you those proofs. I don't want to disclose their identity here in the vulnerable cyberspace.
Be tolerant, thats what education is meant for. Ashu being best out going student of the instution surely a great example of a educated and tolerant person. Those ugly postings have not changed my image on St. X graduates, and I know good and bad peoples exist everywhere, and the marginal bad should not ruin the quality of institutions like St. X.
I have no regret for telling you what I have heard first hand information from ex. St. X or based on hearsy or read somewhere items.
I have talked with a man who was King of Nepal for some time, also to some peoples who work as peons or even with some beggers, I know what to talk, what not to talk and what to take and what not to take. I have probably talked with at least one person from al most all the countries around the world during my college days to university or international instutions to participating and organizing international conferences. I know who am I and I know what I know and I know what I also don't know.
Some of you in this forum will not get even an appointment after waiting for a month in real world. You should be lucky to find my presence here..............
I challenge you to fire on me to your capacity. If you are not personal to me, I will also not be personal to you. I can feel some peoples are disappointed when they don't find their name in my postings. Those who don't find their name (should have been referred their postings) in my postings, need to pass litmus tests in second round of discussions. "reject ideas, but, not persons". I still remember the first ever email that came to me in cyberworld, was from Ashu and the content in his email to me has not faded yet. As I discussed with him more, it reinforces my feeling towards him more. ................
Since last August, I realized a mechanism that whoever's name is cited in my postings repeatedly or whoever is attacking me negatively were elevated up and up, because I know there are many peoples who don't want to see me, my fame, my postings in Sajha.com, because I don't mind pouring "MAPAI" whenever wherever required, and this is what not digestable to the young juveniles.......... They attacked me, I defended myself, and this kind of cycle raised their position up. From now onward, my cynic attackers will not be given a single chance of getting elevated up, just by pouring venom against me. I just add their name in my virtual list of idiots (idiots in my perspective and for my use). Every one is free to create their idiot's list.
GP
|
| SITARA |
Posted
on 25-Jul-03 04:37 AM
Brings to mind an apt saying:
If wishes were horses, beggars wouldl be riding them!!! But, I don't mind letting them languish in blissful ignorance either!
GP ji= Hahooguru????????? :O oooooooooooooooooooh! Now he"tolls"me!!!!!!!!
Darshan guruji!!!
Dheraaai din pachi bhetghat bhayo ; gup sup gariyo; dhaan ropai *rice seeding* ko bare pani information aadan pradaan gariyo, eeschoool haroo ko baaare pani tarka bitarka gariyo... Malaai ta aali chinyachinya jasto ta lagya thiyo ni!
|
| dautari |
Posted
on 25-Jul-03 08:33 PM
A question for fellow Xavierians:
When we prayed "O Lord, Be Kind To ME .." every morning at the assembly, was there any mention of "Jesus" in the prayer. I am asking because I have already forgotten the prayer except the first six words.
When we say "Lord" does it automatically refer to Christian "God"? To me "Lord" refers to the "God" in any religion. At least, when I used to pray I used to think of Hindu "Paremeshwar" as a hindu devotee not as a Christian.
GP-Ji and others who have referred to "Lord" in this string, is it not a "purbagraha" to say that "Lord" is a word that is reserved exclusively for Christians?
|
| rendra wasito |
Posted
on 25-Jul-03 09:18 PM
I am very disturbed that Reverend Williams of St. Xaviers' Social Service has been vocal demoralising our brave Nepali Army soldiers. He indicated recently in a letter to the editor in Katmandu Post that they should not go to Iraq in assisting the US Army.
I think this is a great opportunity to modernise new warfare techniques by being associated with the US side. Then they can be effective to defend us against the Maoists.
We do not need such crazed Godman to goad us Jesuit Liberation Theology. This is not in the best public and national interest of Nepal. He should be provided a therapy in not to open his loud mouth impulsively. He is not being sensitive to Nepal's national interest.
I just wonder about Mr. Tiwari's comments ? What does he think about them moving near Kalikot to be near the Maoist's nest ?
|
| marich |
Posted
on 25-Jul-03 09:56 PM
Dauutari
I want to say somnthing here too ..Kina nabhanne hoina ..
OK here is my version of The prayer..No I would have never had any problemn with the 'Lord's Prayer" or the word "lord", and I still don't have when I come across it every now and then; ofcourse when i am in the right frame of mind, Because it simply says "Lord" " God" and all that.'
My explaination:
Because my religion taught me this
"YEkam sadbipra bahudha badanti" arthat There is only one who is alliowed to be called god and many a different people call him in different ways.
I dont have much experince with the educattin system of X-vierer's but I do remember Nepals Bada GuruJu's Nephew attending that school , and also a very known family, Sort of Icon of ADWAIA person, who himself is no less then Bada gugujyu in knowing of Hinduism, had both of his sons in xaviers.
Did they graduate with a different religion? No they did not, as a matter of fact the person i am talking about is here in NY and is a pakka HINDU, and never had his TUPPI removed since he had his Brataatabandha done, when he was 7.
I do not think if the fathers or the nuns at the Xaviers or the x-maries try to convert anyone into christianity, for they knew " it was not wise to work against Like Magarmaccha se kya dushmani if yu had to survive there. But if they had it easy done then saying, I dont think they would have hesitated, but that is not the point simply because they did not. .
Think about this. I dont know if you know a person by the mame of Dr. Bihari lal shrestha, famous Orthopedic surgen of Nepal - came to fame after Jwala Raj Pandy, Unfourtunately; yes, he was not much into all that fame and name, but he died few years back as he worked his ass off p to build the Hindu awareness through MatriBhumi Swayamsewak sangah , similar to Rashtriya swyemasewak sangh , a brother organization to BHP in INdia. The idea was simialr, the geographical reason differed. But guess waht,both of his sons wenr to x-avies.Not just that his brother had his daughter in st- mary's and two sons in X- aviers.
Having said all this , I also want to mention that I was taught this ,
"Swadharmee nidhanam shreya paradharmo bhayabaha "
arthat it is better to die in ones one faith rather than in another one, and i take is as BHRAMHA BAKYA as i am a Hindu .
I know lot of us have different views on this . but please spare me from your own , so I beg; for i love what i believe in and none of your arguments is gonna bring the change aboiut me as thou deireth. So ..
ok , i got ot go eat now and hit the sac...take care
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 26-Jul-03 01:17 AM
Dautari,
There was NO mention of Jesus in any of the morning prayers. The prayers were relatively generic in that the word "Lord" could have referred to Lord Krishna or Lord Ram or any of the other 33 koti Lords of the Hindu pantheon.
The only explicit mention of Jesus was in the Bible class, which, as I noted earlier,
ended up enriching one's understanding of Christianity, and that in turn, later helped understand aspects of English Literature and Western Civilization -- WITHOUT converting anyone to Christianity.
**********
To take the argument further, with "a libertarian paternalistic" framework (as per
an article by economist Robert Thaler and law professor Cass Sunstein in the May
2003 issue of American Economic Review, starting on page 175):
When your parents entrust you under the care of the Jesuits during the formative years of your life, what that means is that your parents are quite OK with the idea of Jesuits teaching you anything they want.
The Jesuits, after all, did NOT force/coax/cajole/coerce you or your parents in any way to attend STX. And so, the decision to attend STX was a choice FREELY and WILLINGLY and even paternalistically made for you by your parents or guardians, who also paid for your education.
Sure, as an adult now, you look back and might NOT have appreciated that arrangement when you were a kid. But it's foolish to rail against the Jesuits now when in fact it was your parents who -- of all the choices available to them as to where to send you to school in Nepal -- FREELY, WILLINGLY and VOLUNTARILY chose to send you to STX.
When your parents made decisions for you when you a kid, you can't now turn around blame someone else now for teaching you stuff that to you smack of so-called "subversive indoctrination". The idea of a failed subversive indoctrination is as fancifl as the idea of being "a little pregnant". :-)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
rendra wasito,
As per Nepal's Constitution of 1990, Fr. William Robins, SJ is FULLY entitled to express his opinions about any topic of wider public interest through a letter to editor in any of Nepal's 14 broadsheet national daily newspapers. Fr. Robins, for your kind information, is a naturalized (i.e. legal) Nepali citizen.
Sure, one may not like or even agree with Fr. Robins' opinions about the Iraq war and the role of Nepali Army and much else besides, but you are welcome to criticise his
ideas WITH REASON anytime anywhere while refraining from the cheap personal attacks.
Fr. Robins, a remarkable human being who has long encouraged students to disagree with him with reasons, would expect and deserve nothing less.
And it so happens that many of Fr. Robins' students are now in top positions in the Royal Nepal Army.
***************
GP-ji, thank you for your kind words.
I too have learnt an immense lot by deliberately/consciously choosing to hang out/work with and get along with people who are my opposites, and who therefore help me learn to see the world from various perspectives, and NOT only from my own angle.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| rendra wasito |
Posted
on 26-Jul-03 08:50 PM
I am sorry Mr. Tiwari that you considered that Reverend William was being personally attacked (cheaply). I was basically seeking your opinion and that was all. I will ask him about his ideas soon.
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 26-Jul-03 09:22 PM
rendra wasito,
These were your exact sentences.
QUOTE We do not need such crazed Godman to goad us Jesuit Liberation Theology. This is not in the best public and national interest of Nepal. He should be provided a therapy in not to open his loud mouth impulsively. He is not being sensitive to Nepal's national interest UNQUOTE
The third person singular "he" appears to refer to Fr. Robins, SJ.
Now, enlightened Sajha readers can decide for themselves whether the sentences above are anything but cheap personal attacks.
To borrow the tag-line from the Fox News:
I report.
You decide.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| SITARA |
Posted
on 27-Jul-03 07:14 AM
I suppose the UN has a loud mouth too.... and does not have Nepal's best interest at heart!!! *sigh!!!* :(
|
| Real Matrix |
Posted
on 27-Jul-03 08:43 PM
Well I totally agree that the Catholics aren't there to preach their religions to the students in catholic schools. I have studied both in a catholic and protestant schools and believe me there are big differences between the two. The Catholics never ever try to convince you on converting to Christianity (at least to students at their schools) whereas the Protestants show hatred towards other religions. I am lucky to still be a Hindu because I did my secondary schooling at catholic schools. They are the cheapest (in terms of fees) and have the best education system in the world. In my higher secondary (protestant) I heard speeches in assemblies where they said Jesus was the only God and all other religions are a hoax and made out of imaginations.
On one hand I agree that Christians don't preach their religions at schools or force their students to convert but I would totally disagree with the fact that they don't preach their religion.
Ashuji,
I am a new comer to Sajha and I have read some of your articles and have been impressed by your writings. But with what I observed from my schooling in Darjeeling (a catholic school) and Delhi (a Protestant school) I have to disagree agree with what you said above (section attached below)
"Missionaries are often Protestants who travel to spread their versions of Christianity
And attempt to convert as many people as possible. The Jesuit priests at St. Xavier's are
all Catholics, and Catholics, as a rule, are NOT into conversion and proselytization. Most people in Nepal do NOT understand the basic difference between Protestants and Catholics and tend to lump all Christians into one bundle".
Agreed that Unlike the Protestants the Catholics don't mix education and religion. However it would be totally unfair to say "Catholics, as a rule, are NOT into conversion and proselytization". A lot of brothers in Darjeeling were from South India. As per their statements there families are very poor, some of them couldn't afford two meals a day. So these catholic institutions (not schools) approach them and give them an option of free food, lodging, pocket expenditure and education if they convert to Christianity. "I ask you what would you call this act or practice". I am not against this practice because at least its getting the people educated and improving their lives. Look at the literacy rate of Kerala its at the top (compared to other states) and the intriguing fact is that the female population is greater than the male in Kerala. To be honest if the Catholics do practice that in Nepal I wouldn't oppose it at all. At least we would have a literate public, which chooses the right representative and hence improves the countries condition.
Real Matrix
|
| prasun |
Posted
on 28-Jul-03 08:11 PM
I agree with Matrix when he says that unlike the Protestants, Catholics don't mix education and religion, but the Catholics are into conversion and proselytization. I studied in a Catholic school in west bengal and I observed the very things matrix mentions in this thread.
Prasun
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 28-Jul-03 08:52 PM
Real Matrix wrote:
"However it would be totally unfair to say "Catholics, as a rule, are NOT into conversion and proselytization".
I admit that my knowledge of Catholicism is based on what I encountered in Nepal and
in Boston (which, with its Irish population, remains a strong bastion of Catholicism). I
am vaguely aware of the link between Catholics and conversion, as it is practiced in South India, but am ignorant about the details. Your and Prasun's postings shed
some more light, and I thank you both for your input.
A few years ago, I came across a journal article (forgot which journal exactly), which talked about the plight of so-called Indian "Dalit Christians" (i.e. former Hindu Dalits) who had converted to Christianity, only to be oppressed by similarly converted
former Brahmins and others.
In other words, it was a case of one group of converted Christians discriminating against another group of converted Christians based on their Hindu origins. I thought that was pretty ironic. Can't remember whether the article mentioned that they were Catholics or Protestants.
Coming back to Nepal's case, I think your idea that "Unlike the Protestants the Catholics don't mix education and religion" appears to hold true, at least at St. Xavier's, where Catholic Jesuit priests teach.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| phateko_kattu |
Posted
on 29-Jul-03 02:48 AM
Real Matrix is 200% true .
This topic is mainly revolving between GP ji and ashu ji .
NO OFFENSE INTENDED - but lets assume the following :-
Lets assume STX school = Down town club and Bar
lets assume Poster of Jesus christ in every classroom in STX = Strippers performing
striptease in every corner of the club .
lets also assume Protestant schools = pimp
--------------------------------------------------------------
Once GP ji and ashu ji visited the club and when they got out of the club they had a conversation .
GP ji said = "This club is only for elites .Normal people cannot afford to come here every now and then .yesh prakar ko club ley samaaj ma ramro service ra special drinks ko saath saathai pronography ,youn , sex etc lai promote gari raheko cha ".
and what ashu ji says ?
he says "I swear to pashupatinath no one forces you to look or touch those strippers .Bhagwaan kasam noone forces you to get sexually aroused .what elites ?? common man even Rickshawalla and bhariyas come here and enjoy .Just look the beer is so cheap ....only 10 ruppees per pint .what the hell are you talking about GP ? how can you say that they are promoting youn ,sex when they are not forcing you to see or touch those strippers ? think again man ....there is a vast difference between NIght Club (STX school ) and Pimp (protestant school).Pimp (protestant school ) force you for sex (christanity )........and not Night club (STX school )
-----------------------------------------------------------------
FULL STOP to this topic . most of us are sick and tired of it .
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Bujhne ley Bujhi khancha ....Nabujhne ley M*ji Khancha "
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 29-Jul-03 05:24 AM
PK,
History repeats itself.
With provocative language and mixed-up metaphors, a few others too have tried to
destroy the spirit of open, frank, respectful and evidenced-based kurakani between
GP-ji and me in this thread.
I see that you too have made your attempt to muddy up the waters somewhat.
That's perfectly fine.
But there is NO way I, for one, am going to let this kurakani degenerate into
a khattam, distasteful morass.
Other than that, your have a vivid imagination.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| GP |
Posted
on 29-Jul-03 07:31 PM
Ashu,
I wish you read my last posting that had a part dedicated to those who try
or tried to clog my postings. Since last August, I came to realize a mechanism
that new juvenile comers come and join Sajha.com. They want to go up the
ladders, and no one really notice them in this ocean of registered users in
Sajha.com. Some "cynic by birth/ lifestyle" start pouring sarcastic, cynic and
pessimistic postings and venoms on anyone who they find contradicting their
nature, and suddenly the new bandwagon will find other passengers who
were frustrated for not being recognized by regular "recognized posters", thus,
this bandwagon start running very fast whose passengers are equipped with
weapons of "cynic, sarcastic, venomous words and phrases" ....... hitting anyone
whoever found on the street.
What is the solution? I have found to avoid getting abused by these "wrong" posters?
Alienate them. Don't respond to their postings. Just desert their postings or their areas.
These are the peoples who seek attention to get elevated instantly adopting a back
door method. Just neglect them, do not cite their name in any postings, and put them
in probation, especially, when they suddenly write good stuffs... because if we respond
for this particular posting, they will find excuses to run another series of "cynic,
sarcastic and venom full postings". Well, its true that "neglect ideas, but, not persons",
its applicable only in the civilized society, but, not with goondas or gangsters who
pose their ideas with weapons on their body, e.g can you neglect ideas of Maoists when
you know very well that they are equipped with Weapons? Just neglect them.
Similarly, we have to neglect them, alienate them, desert their route........ so that
they will / may start behaving properly.
Just neglect them. There is no need to teach "nelgect ideas, but, not persons" to those
who are proud of being equipped with weapons, neither you as an unarmed person can
win them. "neglect persons whatsoever may be their idea if s/he is equipped with dangerous weapons".
Thats why I just reject their name and postings in all my current and future postings. I found its interesting result, they must be feeling deserted, alienated ...... asking for my response on their some really good postings. ......... I am not going to make a mistake again to let them use my postings to get them elevated. First impression is last impression, and till the end I will reject their name and postings in my postings and answers. Let them crawl.
Regards to all good posters. To those who bad history w.r.t. to my feeligns, and despite of good postings recently find me not referring to your name in my postings which you expected, then, you can count as one of the member in my "idiot's list". Its my very personal and uniqe list, may not match with anyone else's criteria.
I suggest all descent posters to alienate, reject and desert all those who pose here with weapons of malacious and disgusting (WMD) words.
GP
|
| SITARA |
Posted
on 29-Jul-03 07:52 PM
GP ji:
You break my heart; now, I really feel like a rejected prodigal daughter omitted from a lucrative will!!!!
Where is my Bible when I need it most!!??? :(
Montou, oh Montou!!! Where art thou??? Bless me father for I have sinned heinously!!!
|
| Bhunte |
Posted
on 29-Jul-03 08:08 PM
hoina hey sathi ho, yo Gurjhar Pampkin babu lai kina eklai barbaraune rog lageko han...bichara balak lai kasai le dudhdani ma dudh chusai diye hune ni ...ehehehe
Lau na ni swosti santi gari dinu paryo Ooha lai...Ani, Sitara ji le Bible ko slok padhna lagnu bha ko ho?....eheheh
|
| babaal |
Posted
on 29-Jul-03 08:10 PM
Post ANA syndrome it's called; remains in effect for a few months. It's just been a few weeks.
|
| babaal |
Posted
on 29-Jul-03 08:14 PM
Bhunte, I don't necessarily support GP's point of view or his style of writing, but the comment you just made about him was simply disgusting.
Grow up, will ya?
|
| Bhunte |
Posted
on 29-Jul-03 08:24 PM
Babbal ji,
I understand what u mean, but r u also in his I-club?
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| GP |
Posted
on 30-Jul-03 02:42 AM
Babbal writes: I don't necessarily support GP's point of view or his style of writing...
Yes, Babbal you are right. I welcome peoples like you who disagree with my postings or writings or views, but, are not personal. I reject those who are personal. I am really happy to find a new person who can separate "personal stuffs" and "views/ideas". I am sure you will be an example to those monsters and I.....s... who roam Sajha.com behind particular names.
Regards.
GP
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| Bhunte |
Posted
on 30-Jul-03 02:53 AM
la badhai chha jo jo gp ko pyara list ma parne haru....kunai godawa sodawa pani chha bhane yeso kahile ho announce garauna ta.. hami ooha ko I list ma parne jati ramite bhayera heramla ni ta....in jest ......by the way tyo gp ji ko malbhog kera ra samusa khuwaune education project kaha po pugyo kunni..
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| phateko_kattu |
Posted
on 30-Jul-03 03:21 AM
ashu ji and GP ji ,
I am a newcomer in sajha.com .I now realise that I shouldn't have typed the last line in my last posting . I am terribly sorry for it .I should have thougt twice before replying to someone who have graduated from precious college like Havard .my sincere apologies......ashu ji .GP ji ,I am your fellow pokhreli pal.could you please kindly exclude me from your Idiot's list (I am sure I am somewhere there after my last posting ).please forgive me I wont repeat it again .I hope you are not going to do KATTI me forever .anyway
GP ji says
[These are the peoples who seek attention to get elevated instantly adopting a back
door method.]
-------- elevate where GP ji ? top of the Mt everest ????
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GPji says
[its applicable only in the civilized society, but, not with goondas or gangsters who
pose their ideas with weapons on their body, e.g can you neglect ideas of Maoists when
you know very well that they are equipped with Weapons? Just neglect them.
Similarly, we have to neglect them, alienate them, desert their route........ so that
they will / may start behaving properly. ]
--------------- No wonder talks with Maoists fail each time . You mean Maoist will behave properly by neglecting ,alienating or deserting them ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Regards to all good posters. To those who bad history w.r.t. to my feeligns, and despite of good postings recently find me not referring to your name in my postings which you expected, then, you can count as one of the member in my "idiot's list". Its my very personal and uniqe list, may not match with anyone else's criteria]
-------------------
------yekdamai rish ko jhok ma lekhnu bhaye jaso cha ni GP ji .rish ko jhok ma lekhnu hunna .....sabda haru mix up bhayera chatni huncha .
dhaniya ko paat
phateko kattu
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| Bhunte |
Posted
on 30-Jul-03 03:30 AM
hajur ko kattu katai tyo list wala ko dant ko grrrr grrr ra kitt kitt bata fateko ta hoina...ehehehe .....in jest
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| phateko_kattu |
Posted
on 30-Jul-03 03:53 AM
hahahahahhah bhunte you really made me laugh LOL LOL LOL ....:o) list wala rish ley bomb hunu bha cha .bhane pachi tapai pani confirm uhaan ko list ma parnu bho aba .wellcome to the I-club.
dhaniya ko paat
:0)
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| Bhogate |
Posted
on 30-Jul-03 07:34 AM
I is new he' 'n like de humo'.
Wat is I don undestan is why is yawl gib a dam whedd' you is aun dis list o' aun dat list, spesally aft' knwaing oell 'head hu da ' uck this GP is, so it sem to I?
c'mon! de won an aunly ting u is gwaing t' git outta dis, be wane'd , he ain't jist gwaing t' eat yo 'derwears, 'deedy, also is a-gwaing to eat de inside of it, too; if not b' huk, den shurly b' cruk.
Dherfo' nex taim yawl is gwaing to bath'm, don open yur fly in sich a haste. tink an' tink twice befo' yu is slide yo pans down. Do lokkie araun befo yu is enterin the buldin, ' he sure b araun waitin fo yawl wid his maud open and razo' sharp teed ready, an clam like grippe.
Now dhere, Be carful yawl, as carful as a hog is.
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| GP |
Posted
on 30-Jul-03 06:19 PM
PK writes: I am a newcomer in sajha.com .I now realise that I shouldn't have typed the last line in my last posting . I am terribly sorry for it .
I really appreciate you to read this part in your last posting. It shows your generosity and your willingness to correct when you yourself realize that there was mistake in your own posting. What can be great than this. Yes, we are (at least me) willing to company with guys like you. As long as you are not personal, you can me your posting humorous and you are free to draw fun from my postings ..... as you like.
Regards.
See you next week.
GP
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