| Username |
Post |
| Biswo |
Posted
on 28-Aug-03 10:12 PM
People say it was gun that helped King Prithvi to subdue the states situated along Himalaya. But the gun theory isn't really tested: it is yet to be verified that Kashi (Benaras) had an open arm market. Given that Nara Bhupal was an almost-contemporary of Peter The Great, who had to go to an extra length to acquire armory and modernize his nation Russia, it is doubtful that guns were marketed openly in Kashi those days. Besides, if British regime also subdued India because it had the gun,a miracle those days, how could guns be so easy to buy?And what exactly was the route to bring thousands of guns to Gorkha? Did he bring it via dense jungle of Chitwan? Or did the state of Chaudandi, or Makwanpur or Tanahu allowed him the route?
It is more likely that he brought some excellent technicians, especially the Moslem ones, who knew the technology. It is open truth that the Moslems were first invited into the hilly states of Nepal in medieval era because they were expert in making weapons. [Ratna Malla of Kathmandu became the first one to invite them to Kathmandu] We can still find the descendants of those Moslems in those hilly states. They are quite assimilated in the local culture and speak perfect pahadiya Nepali.
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Even before Napoleane was trapped in Russia,the war is immortalized in the epic War And Peace, due to problem in supply line, our Bahadur Shah had a nasty experience of this. When Damodar Pande and others went to attack Tibet, they did it recklessly, overstreching themselves, reaching as far as Shigatze in 1848 war. Unfortunately, they couldn't maintain their supply route, and the snowfall in Himalay blocked their return route. They had to come back hastily. Then came the help from China to Tibet, and we got a nasty thrashing from the Chinese army, resulting in Thapathali Sandhi.[PS: that supply line US maintained in Iraq early this year , of 280 miles, was a miracle in history, I believe!]
But where did we get guns?
It is documented that after the conquest of Kathmandu, Prithvi was wise enough to direct his adjutants to make gun(powder?) factory in Sundarijal. It must have solved the problem. However, it is important to remember that guns those days were very unreliable. They didn't have good explosion rate.
--
Then, comes the tale of Top(a kind of cannon).
When Rana Bdr shah was mad after the death of Kantiwati, he himself took a mortar (made in Nepal!) to explode the temple of Pashupati. He was stopped somewhere near Gaushala.It points out that we even had mortars with us those days. Bahadur Shah was wise enough to bolster to defense, it seems.[Ironically, he was killed precise for that: he was accused of emptying national coffer!]
Remarkably enough, it is often emphasized that when we fought with the British during Sunauli treaty, we fought with only traditional weapons. Did we do somekind of ala Saddam Hussain, burying weapons while fighting with stronger enemies?I think most probably we promoted wrong history to show that we were really brave, that our defeat was not due to our physical weakness, but due to the technological inferiority.
--
In this context, I want to see Royal Nepalese Army of these days.
Have they learnt any lesson from the past about maintaining the supply line?
They were unfortunately unable to support the troup that went on to retrieve the weapons looted in Dang last year. That was the reason why the 'thousands of encircled Maoists' were able to escape unhurt.
It is virtually impossible to send heavy armory reinforcement from Kathmandu these days. Roads to any other parts of the nation are such that even a small group of unarmed committed fighters can block the advance for hours.Monsoon does that every year to civilian transportation.
The way army pursues enemies in hilly area is worth noticing. An army officer told me that they walk in 'series'. But with the terrain full of mountains, the walk in series without any assistance from gunships is fraught with danger.And yet that is the most efficient way to do for the illequipped RNA.
I met the Maoist commander of Solukhumbu in the Hotel Everest View in Syangboche and had a long talk. He told me that they had recently imported guns,everything except the bullets of which is made up of plastics so one can see the bullets from outside. I tried to find the name of that brand but couldn't . He told me they are made in USA. But I don't find that claim very plausible.The fact that AK47/AK56 guns, which are the second best guns in terms of their explosion rate coming second only to AN92, a yet to be mass-produced top notch gun from Russia, according to a recent History Channel report,can be bought in about five thousand Rupees in black market in Peshawar, and also from some Chinese factories, make AK47/AK56 guns more attractive to the rebels. But our army is still using other guns, some police officers told me that some police still use the much reviled .303 guns, while rest of them have got German-made SLRs, which may not explode all the time, and which doesn't have waterproof reliability makes RNA's armory superiority doubtful.
With the current state of the guns and supply line like that, it is not reasonable to hope for something like quick military victory. Will some readers from military background please illuminate us some more?
[If any data here look inaccurate, I welcome the correction since I wrote them from memory:-) ]
But Mao had always stressed otherwise: asked how he would win war against the rich and fully armed enemies: he would reply, "Our enemies provide us with guns."
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 28-Aug-03 10:18 PM
Sorry about the last paragraph. That should have appeared after the discussion about how Maoists get guns.
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| Boke |
Posted
on 29-Aug-03 02:49 AM
Biswo-ji,
Tapai ko assertions haru ko source pani rakhnu bhaye dekhi ajjha asal huney thiyo ki?
How does a grad student from Tejas know so much about guns, their availability and usage in Nepal?
Just curious.
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| villagevoice |
Posted
on 29-Aug-03 06:18 AM
Good going, Biswo. Your artilce in the Kathmandu Post today (August 29) in defence of Nepal's beleagured democracy is thought-provoking. Hopefully, it will mark the beginning of another round of healthy debate on Fareed Zakaria's book, The Future of Freedom.
Hi Nk, Arnico, Swarnim and others. I am now back in Kathmandu for good.
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| gokul |
Posted
on 29-Aug-03 07:30 AM
Biswo,
Interesting and well-balanced writing. Thanks for sharing.
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 29-Aug-03 10:24 AM
VV and Gokul,
Thanks for your comments.
Boke,
I don't want to make the postings here very heavy, so normally don't put the name of the sources unless I think it is warranted. Most of what I have written above are available in history books available in bookstores and libraries. Information about guns in Imperial Russia is available in the book Guns In Tsar's Russia, which I found in our school's library.One more info , as I quoted, was lifted from a program from History channel.
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 29-Aug-03 10:38 AM
I read your article in TKP, Biswo ji. A well-timed, bold, frank and educational article. We need more of this kind of stuff in our mainstream press. We have had enough of the type of useless safe whining or ill-informed and shamelessly biased articles which are, by the way, just natural in a place where survival is everything for everybody from a raja to a ranka.
When will we have a chance to stop surviving and start living ?
I salute you Biswo for your boldness and sense.
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| RBaral |
Posted
on 29-Aug-03 10:45 AM
Biswo ji
Thoroughly enjoyed your writing, this one and the one that appeared on TKP.
Praiseworthy.
Rishi
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| binay |
Posted
on 29-Aug-03 11:26 AM
Biswo,
Thought it was a very concise historical narration. While I dont get to post my thoughts on SAJHA as much as I want, I have always admired your well-informed postings on Nepali politics and ground-realities. Great to see your Keep us posted more.
On a side note, although I dont remember the whole citation exactly, I recall reading a similar kind of article by Prachanda on their mouthpiece JANADESH around 1996 or so. Unlike most of his propaganda pieces and usual thoughts filled with predictable jargons and styles, I thought it stood out. If I remember correctly, some important aspects of it were: spatial distributions of strategically important locations in the country, how Prithvi Narayan Shah and Bahadur Shah placed strategic importance on weapons and their use at the right time and right place (even the routes they were supplied from India), and history of forging alliances with old foes and other raitis at the right time. In any case, it was interesting to read.
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| Arnico |
Posted
on 29-Aug-03 11:31 AM
Good job Biswo!
Congratulations on being the first to start a new round of TKP op-ed pieces written by sajhapur residents!
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 29-Aug-03 12:22 PM
Hi Arnico,
Thanks for your comments. I also want to thank you very much for the feedback and review of the article you provided before it was sent to the TKP.
Nepeji,
I think the situation there makes it impossible for a lot of people to speak up their mind without putting themselves in a harm's way. But I think the praises should go to the editors of TKP who are bold to push limit of the freedom of press, and have exercised their right from time to time.
RBaralji,
Thanks for your kind comments.
Binayji,
I will definitely love to read the article by Prachanda. I used to read Babu Ram, almost regularly during my college days, when he used to write for Janadesh and even Yojanaa. I remember one article in which he flayed North Koreans, saying their communism is same as the monarchy as Kim Il Sung those days were trying to promote his son as his heir.It is unimaginable now, but those days he sounded like a reasonable person. His speeches were however very boring. Despite the bad publicity they used to get, Ganesh Man Singh's speeches were great, laden with interesting proverbs and anecdotes. His book Mero Kathaakaa Paanaaharu has retained that characteristics of his speech, and is a great read.
Prachanda rarely impresses me. His stodgy communiques are laden with the Sanskrit words. Most of the times they are predictable.When they are unpredictable, (like the one a few days ago) they create a havoc, and are harbinger of something very undesirable and dangerous.
Somehow I believe that knowledge of our history is a very good way to understand our present and guide our way in future. It gives us a description of the trails that we traversed in the past to come to the point where we are standing. Paras Shah's drunken shenanigans sounds weird to us now, but to those who understand how Shah princes acted in the past, this is an explainable phenomenon. I think as a community, it is better if we all try to put unknown historical facts here in sajha, and let us be acquainted with them in our leisure time. Our fellow poster Paschim is always my inspiration when it comes to mastering our history.
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| NK |
Posted
on 29-Aug-03 01:19 PM
Biswo, my tutor of Nepali history:) Enjoyed reading the article.
VV! Great to hear from you. Waiting for your email.
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 29-Aug-03 04:10 PM
Oh, Thanks NK.
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| vivid |
Posted
on 31-Aug-03 05:22 PM
Biswo ji,
Though a bit late, had the pleasure of going through both of your write ups.
Well balanced and mind provoking pieces.
Very true. Saw them walking in series of not more than 2 meters apart and always along the footpath/road, which is always in the open making them more prone to maoist ambush/attack. On the other hand heard that maoist seldom use the footpath/road for transportation.
Regards!
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 31-Aug-03 10:52 PM
vividji,
Thanks for your kind words. Your confirmation of what I wrote here means a lot to me, because it proves that I am not writing bullshits out of my heads. I have repeatedly asked people to write what they have definitely known to be true here, and point out if what I am writing is false, because that is the only way we can know what is going on. I want all of us to be objective in reporting what is true, regardless of our political belief, and personal opinion towards a fellow poster. Let's , in these troubled time, try to find out truth, and then make up our own mind based on them.
RNA's strategy is,apprarently, to lessen casualty, rather than to inflict that, or that is what seems to me. Maoists strategy is somehow more reckless, they are more committed and their brainwashed cadres are 'more' ready to die.
I remember general Patton's quote from Patton the movie's (probably) opening scene: "You don't win the war by dying for your country. You win the war by making the other son of bitch(enemy) die for his country."
In our country, both won't win.
They say that in war, if both sides have clumsy strategies, casualties become high. We don't have clear winner yet. And so casualties are likely to rise, major part of that being collateral damage.
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| bijaya.m |
Posted
on 01-Sep-03 12:23 PM
Biswo,
You have certainly wasted my time in publishing rubbish history of "gun theory" in the first paragraph and you, yourself walk away from your own statement that this theory is "not tested" How can history be tested? Is this one of the exam you need to pass??
Here is cut-n-paste of your own statement
People say it was gun that helped King Prithvi to subdue the states situated along Himalaya. But the gun theory isn't really tested: it is yet to be verified that Kashi (Benaras) had an open arm market. Given that Nara Bhupal was an almost-contemporary of Peter The Great, who had to go to an extra length to acquire armory and modernize his nation Russia, it is doubtful that guns were marketed openly in Kashi those days. Besides, if British regime also subdued India because it had the gun,a miracle those days, how could guns be so easy to buy?And what exactly was the route to bring thousands of guns to Gorkha? Did he bring it via dense jungle of Chitwan? Or did the state of Chaudandi, or Makwanpur or Tanahu allowed him the route? Is this statement not ridicules and example of you extorted intellectually?
I am glad that you approve my intellectual ability and know the intellectual ability of the king and know the psychology.
>You surely sound like an advisor of the current king: at least your intellectual level matches theirs.
I know some people who need psychiatric help; can I have them contact you for assistance? Are you the brain and advisor of GPK or some body else? I see correlation between your statements and statements of GPK, are you also a partner of his corruption as well? If you can tell me about what you know about the history of Koirala family like you know the history of our founder king and his ancestors.Please do not reply with fabricated lies and imaginations. If you understand please read properly what I have written for the reply of your concocted stories.
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| bijaya.m |
Posted
on 01-Sep-03 01:55 PM
oops wrong thread..
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 01-Sep-03 03:58 PM
>I know some people who need psychiatric
> help; can I have them contact you for
>assistance
Bijaya,
Oh, I am sure you definitely know at least one person who need psychiatric help. If our conversation here makes you confident about my ability to help people who are in need of psychiatric help, then go ahead, and ask them to contact me for assistance. I will be happy to be of any help to those in need.
Also, if you think my threads are 'waste of time', please skip them. I do skip a lot of threads, and postings in sajha, in New York Times, and in other newspapers.
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 01-Sep-03 05:12 PM
Message for 8-)
-http://www.sajha.com/sajha/html/openThread.cfm?forum=2&ThreadID=12124#38462
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| Bijaya.M |
Posted
on 01-Sep-03 07:19 PM
Biswo,
> .. contact me for assistance.
I did not know that you are a psychiatric doctor as well as a patient. I am very sorry I should have known it long before your postings clearly indicates your intellectual position. Thanks.
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| crazyeyez |
Posted
on 04-Sep-03 11:02 AM
Are there any Nepali arms dealers? Does Nepal make any arms ? How about ammunition?
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 04-Sep-03 01:59 PM
Arm dealers in Nepal? Yes, definitely.Just that they are not of the stature of Adnan Khasogi.
There are some people who are known to be arm dealers. But their dealing is limited to supplying arms to RNA.On Maoist side, things are perfectly secret, though it is reasonable to assume Badal is engaged. He knows military thing, and his face when he surfaced few months ago didn't look rugged like that of his other jungle-basi comrades. He looked someone like Surbarna Shamsher or Jhalanath Khanal. A report published a few months ago by a reliable agency, I forgot the name, said that "the situation in Nepal is yet to be escalated to a level where a group of arm dealers could vitiate peace process for their interest..", which means the lobby of arm dealers in both army/Maoist camp is not yet strong enough to make any influence in the political process that their respective body determines to pursue.
To name names is difficult. People talk about Sher Bahadur's in laws being engaged in buying the much-controversial military plane, Rohini Thapaliya is also named frequently as an arm supplier in Kathmandu. High level officials are supposed to get cut, and former CNC Prajwal Shamsher was named frequently as a beneficiary. However, I have not yet asked anyone near Rohini to confirm if he is doing this, so forgive me if I am wrong. These people seems to be too power to care about, reject or accept, any allegation made in media, it seems to me.
We don't have our own brands of guns. The traditional way to make guns have been by heating crude iron and shaping it into guns with the help of blacksmiths. That was the way it used to be produced even in our 'factories'. We also don't make any advanced ammos. For long, AAC guns brought from China during 1988 were our considered our most advanced weapons. Our tanks/armored vehicles are no where close to Humphrey, Bradley etc we are inured to seeing in the places America is engaged.
In a related note, Prachanda just published a communique saying they have captured M16 guns. These guns are made in USA, and they were widely used in Vietnam War. One of the famous Vietnam era tales was this: US army jawaans used to throw away their M16, and grab Kalashnikovs of fallen Vietnamese soldiers in stead. M16 are not very reliable, while Kalashnikovs are perfect even when they are used during rainfall, or other adverse conditions of jungle.Americans always appreciated AKs as better weapons than M16s. They still do.
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