| Username |
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| dhananjya |
Posted
on 02-Sep-03 01:41 PM
Analyse if Baburam is doing something different than Krishna and Channakya:
Krishna, hero of the most influencing Pauranic story asked Arjun to kill the people against him to establish a righteous kingdom. Kauravas were not righteous rulers so he wanted to give freedom to the people from Kauravas. He arranged Mahavarat war for that.
Isnt Baburam doing the same?
His logic is, people are suffering in this system. He wants to bring different system, a good government to end the suffering. Krishan said to Arjun, kill anybody against you to establish Dharma Rajya. He even asked to kill very nice and rightious person like Vishma, Kripacharya, Durnacharya, Karna and Mandra Naresh, I guess Santanu etc (long time since I last read mahabharat). He did all his best and worst to win the war for the better. Babu is also looting private and public properties, destroying public propety and so forth to win so called peoples war. Cant we say Baburam is following our mythological hero?
Krishna convinced Arjuna to fight while he was not ready to kill his own relatives, cousins n beloved ones, revealing him a sophisticated philosophy.
As Arjun said I cant kill my own people :
Krishna said, being (Atma) can not be killed. Atma is
AJO NITYA SASSOTO YAN PURANO,
NA HANNETE HANNYA MA NE SARIRE.
Bing is immortal, eternal, existing every time and oldest one.
It can not be killed by killing the body.
NAINING CHINDANTI SASRANI NAINANG DAHATI PAWAKA,
NA CAHINANG CLEDANYANTYA PO NA SOSAYATI MARUTA.
Being can not be cut down by weapons, neither can be burnt
It can not be wet bye moisture nor can be dried by air.
With this sophisticated philosophy he is convincing Arjun that there is no problem with killing.
As Arjun said I want to go to Jungle and meditate there. I want to be Dharmik. I want to practice goodwill. I dont want to do sin, killing beings.
He said,
SO DHARMAM NIDANAM SERYAM PARA DHARMO VAYAVAHA.
It is worthwhile to die in ones Dharma than living in somebody elses Dharma. He said Kshetriyas Dharma is to kill for good. That is Dharma. May be he is not talking about Kshitrya Jati, he was talking about warrior Jati because at that time some Brahman Jati were also participating in war, he did not condemn them.
He finally showed Arjun his Birat Swarup and convinced that Arjun is just a mean. Everything is happening according to Krishans will and Arjun convinced to go to the war.
Same is happening here. Baburam is convincing simple minded peoples may be with some philosophy and with some reality. He is killing poor innocent policemen for better rule (at least for him) and good government. According to him the present system and present government are out of order and present constitution is dead, in his language. Krishna fought so many wars for the same reason. He fought with Jarasandha, he fought with Kansha and so many others.
Baburam is causing many innocents to be killed by army and police as Krishna did in Mahavarat war. I remember once he said, ask Girija (at that time Girija was PM)to leave power, I will leave violence. Same as Krishna said give seven village to Pandava there will be no war. Babus principle is principle of Mao, who took power with violence for better of China. His principle is principle of Krishan who killed many for the righteous rule. Principally he sounds correct. If we believe in Gita and Krishna, it seems he is doing right.
May be Baburam is following Channakya niti. To establish righteous rule in Maghad, Channakya had done same thing as Baburam is doing now a days. Chanakya said, to win the war, apply Sam, Dam, Danda, and Ved. These are known as Channakya Niti. Arent these four used by Babu to win peoples war? Channakya were condemned by many people not only before Chandra Gupta but also after Chandra Gupas rule. But, history said, he was right. Even later Pauranic writers made him Vishnus Ansha in Kaliyog (see Bhagawat). May be, who knows, tomorrow Baburam will be another Channakya.
Once Baburam said in his interview, even if Buddha were here he would have picked up the gun. Poor Baburam, I would say, he does not know about Buddha. He used to teach liberation from mental fitters not from social fitters. Those who are creating social fitters are also in mental fitters, may be more than the general people. He used to say,
ANNYA HI LAV UPANISA ANNYA NIBBANA GAMINI
The way to liberation from mental defilement is different than the way to earn anything in this material world. He always taught Nibbana.
I can not appreciate killing. Thats why I dont appreciate Gita. If I appreciate Gita, I have to appreciate Baburam.
I have studied Gita since I was 12. I loved it and felt enlighten on reading out of blind faith. Out of blind faith I have accepted every single words of it. As I grown up, I start to analyze it. Partly by experience and partly through intellectual understanding, I start to filter Gita. I found it contain very nice reality with the help of which wrong message is delivered. Many people may condemn me in this regard. Please dont condemn out of blind faith on Gita as I had. I will accept logical criticism that should come from good experience and study.
( please don t make this as religious biasing, these are not my feelings but my understanding and experience, involving in arguments is not my nature but I would love to hear genius logics)
dhananjya
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| Sadabichar |
Posted
on 02-Sep-03 02:08 PM
Dhanajaya:
I totally agree with you and everybody will agree with you whoever has at least understood "B" of Buddhism. Not "B" of Baburam.
I know that understanding just a "B" in Buddhism is a very miniscule step to Nibbana (I like this pali word rather than Nirvana).. howver reaching the last step of Buddhism is very very tough. But yet just even having understanding of that small "B" of buddhism can bring a sea change in a person. I have expeienced it myself.
People in Nepal boast for Lumbini being birthplace, but i do not see much buddhism in practice by ordinary people (except perhaps among only monks and Thilasins) in Nepal. Otherwise we would not be going through all these physical tortures.
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| Sadabichar |
Posted
on 02-Sep-03 02:13 PM
Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it (religion) should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual and a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description
- Einstein
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| Sadabichar |
Posted
on 02-Sep-03 02:16 PM
I gained nothing at all from supreme enlightenment, and for that very reason it is called supreme enlightenment
- the Buddha
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| dhananjya |
Posted
on 03-Sep-03 10:10 AM
Sadabichar,
great to hear from you. I know Nibbana is far away from us. But a small drop of water on red hot iron gives noticable change though to cool it down is far away.
I alsolove the word Nibbana. It literally means to extinguish, what we call NIVNU in Nepali.
Bana=fire on (Balnu in nepali, root word is same)
Ni+Bana=No+Burning=extinguishing
When Buddha was asked where does the Arhant go. He answered,
NIBBANTI DHIRA YATHAYANG PADIPO.
Patience one extinguishes like candle. Very worthwhile meaning the word Nibbana has. We are still using the same word in our daily life. Nivnu. Ago Nivau.....
Buddha used same word for Sankhara Nivau..... Sankharas are the cause of misery....so not let them multiply as fire does when you add fuel.....now no more fuel ...ie no more Tannaha, craving.......the fire of life will extinguish if ther is no more new Sankhara (fuel).
How scientific the teaching is,
how pregmatic the teaching is,
wow what a result worrented teaching,
teaching of enlightened one,
teaching of exhaulted one
teaching of Tathagat.
dhananjya
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| sadabichar |
Posted
on 03-Sep-03 01:32 PM
Indeed Budhha's teaching is result oriented, as said by Goenka in one of his speech beofre he begins Vippasyana meditation course. Follow the path now and get the result now.. no need to wait until you di, there is nothing as such promises such as securing berth in heaven or good life in next life after the death. Follow the path now and get liberated now itself.. instant results!!
Some burmese monk says, it's really worth to learn Pali language so that one can have better understanding on what Buddha taught. Translated version of budhha's teaching might not reflect exactly what Budhha might have meant to. Yet again, Budhha himself used to say that the reasonsing that we may debate couldbe plagued by our own creation of words. We could be confused by our own created words, and trying to explain something with those words may not completely reflect the absolute meaning. So Budhha said, do not get tangled with the human created words as well. Experience yourself.
Similary, the word nirvana might mean something differnt to various people.. but when we dig out what nibbana is, then it has quite different unique meaning.
People might confuse buddhism with other religions. And within different sects of Buddhism, there might be quite surrprising differences inthier philosphies. But all these different sects of budhhism should understand the core message of Buddhism under definite limitation.
The limitation of Buddha's teaching is it concerns with only ending the sufferings and nothing else. There is no soul, no after life, no previous life, no ghosts.. as some sects of buddhism believe those aspects.. example, mahayana, hinayana, bajrayana, tantric buddhism. Buddha's teaching has only one purpose, that is cessation of suffering. All other concepts are trivial within that aim.
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| dhananjya |
Posted
on 03-Sep-03 07:52 PM
trust me my friend, the word Nibbana means, to extinguish. this is not my defination. this is Buddha' s own defination. In many suttas we can see he is asking to extinguish the fire of life by not adding the fuel of new Sankhara. this is what his complete teaching. I have heard the same meaning of Nibbana from Goyanka ji as well.
Pali is really gem may be because of Buddha's live words. As I read Buddhas discourses i feel as he is addressing me. As I chant his verses, i feel so thrilling. An english scholar named Newman said, "those who know pali needs no light from outside". Indeed!!!!!
I am learning pali on my own. Since we have little Sanskrit background and our language is derivative of these sister languages, i am feeling not that difficult to learn. rather more than 60% words sounds familier as we go through.
Indeed! practice is one n only one thing to do. All buddhas discourses are to clearify practice and to encourage for practice. These are just tools. main is practice.
thanks for Einstiens cote. I will try to write something on this tomorrow
dhananjya
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| sadabichar |
Posted
on 04-Sep-03 07:07 AM
Could you please suggest how to start learning Pail language?
Yes, having some background in Sanskrit, we should not have tough time learning Pali. People say that to learn Pali, best place to go is Sri Lanka. However, we might not be able to go to Sri Lanka soon. Any ways to learn Pail while being in North America?
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| vishontar |
Posted
on 05-Sep-03 05:50 PM
Sadabichar,
I am very impressed from Einstien's appreciation of Buddha's teaching. He was one of the greatest theoritical physicist ever. He was scientist, so there is no doubt, he must be result oriented. Physicist tries to reach close to the reality through research. Theorest try to explain the reality observed by experimentalist through some mathematical rules and postulates. They try one thory after another to explain the reality. Thats why it is called research, not search. they search again and again so called research (In France only search word is used). Einstien as a theoritst used to try different mathematics and ideas with paper and pencil. While he was in Prinstan University some journalist asked him: " You are a greatest scientist, but where are your instruments?"
He showed pencil and paper on his desk and a trash can, said, "these are my instruments"
He used to try different formulas differents ideas and tried to expalin the reality. If did not work he used to throw in trash can. Just heat and trial of mathematics and ideas.
I just want to say he was result oriented person.
what meditation is? it is research of mind and matter and mind matter interaction. It has nothing to do with different miracles, different dogmas as you said. It is a study of facts. Study of reality. Meditator explores the reality of mind(Nama)and matter(Rupa) from bulk to subtal to subtalest state.
Both meditators and scientists are research personals. The object of research is matter for scientist, they concentrate on matter and try to find some laws of nature that governs matter. But object of research is body(kaya), sensation(vedana), Mind(Chitta) and Mental contents(Dhammas) for meditator. Meditator has to concentrate on these four objects to learn about them and the laws that governs them.
Most of the laws of physics (so far we have) are very close approximation to reality, they can not explain the reality absolutely. Meditation is a tool that leads meditator from gross truth to absolute truth.
There are some people who consider Dhamma and Science are different and they are rivals. If they are defining dharma as rites and rituals, cultures, tradional faith, dogmas, miths and scriptures, they are right, I am with them, Dharma and Science are rivals. But those who know real dhamma, must be modern, result oriented, scientific minded person.
Scinece is study of matters and its laws. Dhamma is study of mind and matters and their interaction. one has to concentrate on outer matter in science. One has to concentarte on ones own to know oneself in Dhamma. One is getting physical facilites and technologies from science which makes life easier and comfortable. One can remove mental tensions and gets mental peace from Dhamma, which give happiness. Physical comforts you can give and take but mental peace remains limited within you.
Science makes us coooool.
Meditation makes us happppppppppppy.
I love both of them.
Vishontar
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| vishontar |
Posted
on 05-Sep-03 05:56 PM
So there should be no surprise why this greatest scientist of the world appreciate Buddhas teaching. Buddhas teaching is complete science, study of reality, reality, and absolute reality.
I don't know whether Babu knows about teaching or nor not.
vishontar
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| bipin |
Posted
on 05-Sep-03 07:09 PM
"I can not appreciate killing. Thats why I dont appreciate Gita. If I appreciate Gita, I have to appreciate Baburam."
Killing is just part of the whole story. To appreciate the Gita we need to beieve in absolute truth. With that assumption you then can tolerate killing that takes place in it. Shiva Shankar is the Absolute Truth. And with his Tandav Nritya he gives you no choice but to perish. But what comes out next is the new blissful beginning. Evil is destroyed and everyone gets a fresh beginning. Don't compare it to Baburam.
Because, Hitler believed in his pholosophy that the Jews were evil and that the Blacks were sub-human. He wanted to create a pure Aryan white society with his brand of liberty. The whole world united against him and destroyed him and his army. You may not like killings, but the WWII was a necessary mission to rid this world of an evil man like him.
Mao believed in purging all who opposed him to create a perfect society. Millions perished. Stalin did the same and the genocide by the Khmer Rouge is very fresh. Turks killed many Armaniens. The treatment of the American Indians in the US and many incidences of the masscres cannot be justified either. That is, not all killings are good, but some are necessary. As for Baburam, his violent motivation is based on an ideology that is thoroughly rejected by many around the world.
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| DHANANJAYA |
Posted
on 07-Sep-03 09:34 AM
Dear Sadabichar,
I am sorry I could not reply soon because i am out of city. I am very much impressed from your interest of learning golden language pali. Pali has hided three precious gems, Triple gem. My style may be helpful to you to learn it.
I chant verses of Dhammapada aloud, gives me thrilling feeling. I read the translation, that makes me to understand each and every word of the pali verses. I noticed that more than 60% words are known to me and I learn rest words from translation.
I have complete set of Digha Nikaya Pali with Hindi translation, I have Majjhima Nikaya Pali with hindi translation and some other books. I read the translation of any Sutta first, then read the pali aloud several times. The pali is written such a way that, you can learn even very very long discourses by heart after reading couple of times. Its written in a type of format, like formulae of mathematics. This is most effective technique I have experienced. Hindi, Nepali translation is effective than english because of their intimate relationship with pali. This is how i have learned Gita also.
You can take Pali special course from Vipassana Acharya Tandon Ji. he is pali scholar and I have heard that he has unique style of teaching it. One of my friend (Isriali) took 45 day Pali course with him in Dhammathali, Jayapur. he offer, different courses to Nepali -Indians than people of other language because learning pali is relatively easy for us than them. He offer courses in North America also. I will let you know if he will be giving such courese in near future.
You can learn Pali form a book called pali primier. This book is very very helpful to learn pali. Thats why Vipassana Research Institute has reffered this. I have heard that Tandan ji is not completely reffering this book because it contain almost no text related to Dhamma. May be, in near future, there will be a book like Pali primier that will contain the example of pure Dhamma.
here is the link for the book.
www.vri.dhamma.org
Then go to publications
You can see online if there are any useful books.
www.pariyatti.com
Dhananjaya
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| dhananjya |
Posted
on 09-Sep-03 02:58 PM
Deaar Bipin,
I appologize for late reply. Actually I was out of city. Your logic is really good so I am bound to reply.
Killing is just part of the whole story. To appreciate the Gita we need to beieve in absolute truth. With that .............
I have not denied that Gita does not talk about absolute truth. Gita is full of absolute truth like, Arjun asked to Krishan,
What is Yoga? Krishna answered,
YOGASTHA KURU KARMANI, SANGAM TYAKTWA DHANANJAYA
SIDDHE SIDDHYO SAMO VUTWA SAMATWANG YOGA UCCHETE
Meaning: Dhananjaya(arjun), yoga is to work for coming out of attachements. Yoga is to be equinimus in every ups and downs of life. Equanimity is yoga.
Ask to any meditators, they will tell you, these two lines are complete.
There are so many verses that reveals the truth, absolute truth. No doubt. I can give you many more examples. But message of Gita is to kill for better. Krishna speaks about absolute truth and ask to Arjun to do something which prevent him from absolute truth. Logically it seems, Krishna is right, but in absolute reality he is wrong.
Thats why I have said in the starting thread,
I found it contain very nice reality with the help of which wrong message is delivered...
I have not denied that it does not contain the absolute reality. I know it contain. I also know that it doenot contain the way to reach the absolute reality.
People of the time when Gita was composed, were familier about the characteristic of absolute truth. Composer delivered wrong message to society with the help of absolute truth.
Regarding your other logics, always it seems, there is a good reason for killing. But killing can never be appreciated, anyways. War always destroy, it is virtual reality to believe that war brings something good. I am ready to believe, after war, people become more mindful for a while that brings progress. usa, japan are example of this.
dhananjaya
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