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| Username | Post |
| Prajesh | Posted
on 15-Sep-03 02:45 PM
I will appreciate if anyone can give me telephone # or e-mail address for any of my Chartered Accountant friends (listed below). Please e-mail me at raj@mfco.com or aprajesh@hotmail.com. 1) Shiva Nath Pandey or 2) Rajesh Poudel or 3) Biswash Gauchan or 4) A K Yadav Thanks in advance, Prajesh Acharya |
| ashu | Posted
on 15-Sep-03 08:22 PM
Check out the Web site of Institute of Chartered Accountants of Nepal, the super-elite body. www.ican.org.np On another note, and this is a completely personal observation: In America, in policy circles, either think-tank economists or university economists are highly valued. Nobody thinks much of accountants, except to say that, yes, accountants are necessary technicians. But, again, no one turns to accountants for advice on how to improve the over al economy and so on and so forth. In Nepal, I am just amazed to find chartered accountants (who number about 200 in the whole of country) often doubling up as macroeconomists and what not. Shouldn't Nepali economists -- who are, it's safe to assume, much more rigorously and broadly trained -- wrest the public platform on economic issues from the hands of chartered acountants? Just a thought. oohi "squarely inside the tent of economists in Nepal" :-) ashu ktm,nepal |
| bhunte | Posted
on 15-Sep-03 08:41 PM
Accuntants in Nepal as pseudo-economist? how come the state allows that.... |
| Brook | Posted
on 16-Sep-03 04:35 AM
Interesting observation from Ashu dai. Recently, reading Mr. Khetan talk about national macroeconomic trends at a depth greater than warranted by his immediate business interests on Boss magazine got me wondering along similar lines. Could it be that economics as a discipline itself is still in its incipient stages in developing countries like Nepal? My answer to myself was, theoritically and mathematically speaking, trade, commerce, industry and finance are some of many other subsets of economics. But considering the lack of formally recorded and reliable corss-sectional as well as time series data in the context of countries like Nepal, the distinction between the parts and the whole is blurred. That's why a financier or an entrpreneur in the manufacturing sector can talk authoritatively of the "economy" and get away with it while all he is talking about his factors affecting his own line of business. e.g., In a recent meeting with Mr. Rajendra Kabra of Arrowtech, he stressed rigid labor laws and politicized union activity as the MAJOR constraints faced by the private sector in Nepal. Due to the absence of comprehensive labour market data, his assertion, specifically the broader implications of the changes he's implicitly suggesting cannot be "economically" verified for policy purposes. In such a scenario, rigid labour markets, which is only but HIS and other profit-driven individuals' constraint becomes accepted as a pervasive economy wide constraint. |
| Prajesh | Posted
on 16-Sep-03 07:44 AM
Ashu Ji, Good observation on accountants and economists. You are so right that in America think tank economist or University economists are highly valued. In Nepal the story is different and I think the reason is unlike Nepali economists we accountants see just black or white (red) and not gray, we know how much we have in the bank and how much we can spend and how to manage the budget, majority of us accountants havent sold our integrity (yet), people trust us more than the economists, and guess what? Our chances of doing things correctly are 95% vs. (---?)% of economists. Other fact is majority of Nepalese Chartered Accountants are trained in India where we were taught to be second to none (there are good chances of hearing "No surgeon available, Chartered Accountant performed surgery!"). I hope my economist freinds will take no offense of my observation. However the fact is "I am still in America and I highly Value think tank economist or University economists." Prajesh Acharya |
| ashu | Posted
on 16-Sep-03 09:42 AM
>>>>unlike Nepali economists we accountants see just black or white (red) and not gray You seem to imply that seeing gray is somehow bad. I would think just the opposite: That an ability to see the gray and appreciate the various other shades of color and "big-picture issues" in any particular situation is a complex, subtle and even more cerebral skill -- something that not everyone has. But, hey, I could be wrong!! >>>majority of us accountants havent sold our integrity (yet). Well, it so happens that earlier this year, I hired Deloitte's Nepal affiliate to do a study of accountants and auditors (both Chartered Accountants and Registered Auditors of B, C and D Class). The Deloitte study showed (and I have shared the results with ICAN) that two major concerns that your colleagues in Nepal have are: 1) what to do about the poor image of accountants and auditors in general; and 2) what to do about the lack of ethics among accounting/auditing professionals in Nepal. From this, you draw the conclusion. ****** I would say: give the Nepali economists 10 more years or so. I am confident that by then, a critical mass of Nepali PhD economists or those using economics as their major tool of analysis will certianly push the accountants and auditors off the national stage when it comes discussing and debating economic agendas. Don't get me wrong: Accounting and auditing are great. professionally rewarding fields, and Nepali CAs are well-respected. My only point of PROVOCATION here is that I would be leery of receiving macroeconomic advice from accountants. That's all. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 16-Sep-03 11:37 AM
>>>>1) what to do about the poor image of accountants and auditors in general; and 2) what to do about the lack of ethics among accounting/auditing professionals in Nepal. <<<< Arthur Anderson @ Enron is a global example for it. Probably it is a problem globally. |
| Prajesh | Posted
on 16-Sep-03 01:11 PM
Ashu Ji, >>>You seem to imply that seeing gray is somehow bad >>> Seeing gray is not bad, but hiding behind "Gray theory" is bad. Ashu Ji, I apologize if I was rude, I was just defending my profession (which every professional has a right to do). At the same time I beg you to give my colleagues in Nepal the same 10 years that you are giving to my economist friends then we will be able to judge which of the two professions is more ethical and effective in public life within certain comparable parameter. Personally I think the distinction between an economist and an accountant is that the former adds politics to the numbers and the later subtracts politics from the numbers (please feel free to disagree.) And unless the economists take initiative and start giving advice in macroeconomics then the accountants will lead the way (someone has to do it, better accountants than the dentists (no offence! my dentist friends)) By the way I wasn't able to find my friends in ICAN website, and still appreciate your help finding their contact # or e-mail! :) Bhunte Ji, You rightfully raised the Anderson @ Enron, I can sum up this in one sentence accountant stopped seeing (looking for) black and white and started seeing (looking for) gray and we are still trying to recover from that. Kare kohi Bhare kohi, Yeh duniya ki reet hai! |
| BMW | Posted
on 16-Sep-03 02:04 PM
Prajesh ji or anyone, what universities are best to do masters or phd in accounting if there phd in accounting exists and what is the duration and also tell me where there's a bigger job market is for accountants. thanks |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 16-Sep-03 02:08 PM
We need accountants regardless of how bad they cook the numbers. No alternatives to it. |
| Prajesh | Posted
on 16-Sep-03 03:18 PM
>>>we need accountants regardless of how bad they cook the numbers. >>>>>>> Glad that we are being compared with cooks (not crooks)! After all we are second to none in bad cooking also. :) In jest!! |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 16-Sep-03 03:47 PM
BMW, try University of Texas Ausitin, Univ of Chicago, Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, Kellog, etc. Prajesh ji, nepal ma hakim ra accountant milera kasto kasto thul thulo kam hunchha hajur lai thahai hola....Once upon a time i was working in a district office. And, i was about to get transfer to ktm. I had about Rs. 4,000 TADA due, but the acct never released that money for me. Probably he made out of it. Afu sojho technisian pariyo........ |
| ashu | Posted
on 16-Sep-03 06:14 PM
Prajesh wrote: >>>>>>Personally I think the distinction between an economist and an accountant is that the former adds politics to the numbers and the later subtracts politics from the numbers (please feel free to disagree.) <<<<<< I am not sure whether I fully agree with this. But yes, sadly, most economists in Nepal do communicate more to their party-political netas in partisan terms than to the public at large. And those who are not politically charged seem to work for donor agencies, thereby reducing their degrees of intellectual freedom to speak out on publicly pressing economic concerns. In the US, with the exception of a few such as Paul Krugman and others, most economists simply talk to one another through publications. On a larger noe, in Nepal, when it comes to being 'a social science person' good, competent people get pulled in so many tempting directions that it's impossible to remain an ivory-tower theorist or a singular expert. >>>>>And unless the economists take initiative and start giving advice in macroeconomics then the accountants will lead the way (someone has to do it, better accountants than the dentists (no offence! my dentist friends)) <<<<< Fair enough. I accept this. And so, Bhunte and other economists, Nepali economists have their work cut out for them in Nepal. :-) Incidentally, for others' info: all the Big Firms -- KPMG, Ernst & Young, Deloitte and PwC have their affiliates in Kathmandu, and through these affiliates, a small, competent number of Nepali CAs based in Nepal get to travel around the word, auditing companies in Asia and Europe. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| llcoola | Posted
on 16-Sep-03 07:12 PM
Kya chat ta hai???? ohhh.. Account chat ta hain |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 17-Sep-03 04:00 AM
I have been a silent observer of Ashu's points. Personally, I am biased towards working with international organizations, universities, and research centers but remaining thousands miles away from nepali politicis so far possible at least for now. One may get tainted almost for whole his life when one accepts a political appointment-- a significant set back for one's career. Still Nepal doesn't have a culture like where Bill Clinton patiently listens to Joe Stigletz or George W Bush listens to Greg Manikiw. Politicians must realize this fact. I am not sure if the economics professionals there meet occassionally and share ideas of national interests. Talking to one another through publications or anyone becoming theorist/singular expert is very remote for now. However, I am feeling that I need to rescue the nation. I haven't got an opportunity to serve the nation with my latest profession yet. |
| ashu | Posted
on 17-Sep-03 07:22 PM
Bhunte wrote: >>>>I am not sure if the economics professionals there meet occassionally and share ideas of national interests."<<<< Quite a few informal interactions happen here and there, to be sure. But these are driven primarily through personal initiatives. And personal initiatives can go only so far. And so, maybe becuse there are no regularly scheduled university-sponsored talk programs, there is o "brown-bag lunch" sort of culture here that gets professionals together to share ideas and do discussions that lead to publications. The programs related to economic development' organized usually by donor agencies and NGOs tend to be so stuffy, so formal in terms of style and are full of the usual cliches that they no room for jeans-and T-shirt wearing smart folks to get to the substance of issues by having intense, informal discussions. I guess one really needs an academic and sufficiently informal setting to do the kind of economics or social science research one can do . . . .Either that or one really needs to be anti-social to focus exclusively on research. >>>>>Talking to one another through publications or anyone becoming theorist/singular expert is very remote for now."<<<<< Again, unless you are a brain surgeon or a practicing water engineer who publishes stuff in journals, and if you are just an all-round good and competent 'socal science person', you really get pulled in so many directions in Nepal that it's impossible to be a theorist or a singular expert worthy of international reknown by living and working in Nepal. That's a tradeoff one has to make. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| neeta | Posted
on 18-Sep-03 08:42 AM
Hey Prajesh You'll be getting the addresses of your friends sooon ! |
| neeta | Posted
on 19-Sep-03 02:27 AM
Ashu ji, It was interesting to read your views on Chartered Accountants. "Shouldn't Nepali economists -- who are, it's safe to assume, much more rigorously and broadly trained -- wrest the public platform on economic issues from the hands of chartered acountants? " Almost 99 % of the Chartered Accountants in Nepal were trained in India...and when I say 'trained' it means extensive exposure to practical work unlike some professions where you have to hide behind books for years to come. If you are aware of the education system of India, you'll discover that Chartered Accountancy is one of the most toughest and respected professions there. Also, the CA examination has the lowest pass percentage making it Very Easy to Get in BUT difficult to Get Out UNLTIL you have acquired expertise in the subjects. CAs are 'equally and broadly trained', if not more, than the so called economists. I guess it's very easy for you to not regard this profession highly because you seem to not have met the right people. It's understood !!! and it's okay if people in the US don't think much of Accountants...WE ARE IN NEPAL!!!!!! :) Ashu ji, I think you must be aware that CAs in Nepal are doing a great job and they have every right to even comment on the economic issues of this country...BECAUSE they are the one who are doing the work. A current example will be the 'rehabilitation' of NBL, RBB and 're-engineering' of NRB. Don't you know that there are dozens of CAs involved in these projects to straighten the financial backbone of our ECONOMY. I think CAs have a major indirect contribution to this nation and they can do better. I even think that consulting with CAs on economic issues can bring a different (positive) perspective to the economic issues of our country. About ICAN..well, did you really mean it when you called it 'super elite' or was it your 'i'll let you down' comment. In case you meant it....thankxx....in case you didn't, pls note that ICAN was established only in 1997 and you can't expect ICAN to wave a magic wand and turn everything to gold in just six years. What I'm trying to tell you is that ICAN needs a little more time and effort from its council members for it to become more effective. One of the major achievements of ICAN has been the formulation of Accounting and Auditing Standards in the country. It is also coming up with a Code of Ethics to govern its members....therefore addressing the lack of ethics amongst its members. And, ten years from now...the gap between the economists and accountants will be the same. Rather, if you are aware, there are many CAs who are also Phd holders, like Mr. R.K Neupane (BRS Neupane & Co,) Mr. Govinda Ram Agrawal. Sadly, but this might mean that CAs would be doing even better in the near future. I agree when you quote that the Deollite study revealed ppl's bad impression about auditing/ accounting etc....My Question : what do people think of other professions My Proposed Remedy : give us time and, whenever you wish to be critical, also be ready to give constructive suggestions, otherwise it never helps in the process of improvement. Best Wishes Neeta |
| Prajesh | Posted
on 19-Sep-03 07:36 AM
Neeta, Bravo! Well said! I have been out of touch with my colleagues back home but with your help I will be able to communicate with them. Thanks a lot! Prajesh |
| Ruby | Posted
on 19-Sep-03 07:59 AM
No matter how well trained a Charter Accountant is, they are ACCOUNTANTS for crying out loud. They should NOT be forecasting the economic indicators! WHat the hell do they know about that. Trained in INdia, oh please, even if they were trained in Cambribge, doesnt matter, b/c after all they are not trained to be economic advisors. They are book keepers. There is a huge diferrence between Economic profits and Accounting profits. And economists are not business students! |
| Prajesh | Posted
on 19-Sep-03 08:34 AM
I wonder why they have "Chartered" or "Certified" accountants and not "Chartered" of "Certified" economists? Is there any reason for the economists not being certified? Moreover is "economist" considered a profession or something else (like a scholar, a philosopher etc.)? I am just curious. Anyone please! |
| Brook | Posted
on 19-Sep-03 09:51 AM
"Shouldn't Nepali economists -- who are, it's safe to assume, much more rigorously and broadly trained -- wrest the public platform on economic issues from the hands of chartered acountants? " Certainly, chartered accountancy is and should be a revered profession, if for nothing else for its rigour and the absolute devotion it demands from its practitioners. But then again, isn't excellence in every other field or profession demanding? And by all means, irrespective of academic training, let the ones with proven ability in their respective fields take up positions best suited for them. If the CAs trained in India are as rigorously and as broadly trained as Neeta ji has informed us [which btw, I'm totally willing to believe], let them be the movers, shakers and the engineers of the 21st century RBB, NBL and NRB. But, to use the case of these banks as an example, a fat portfolio of non-performing loans and worthless collateral assets is only a part of what ails these asset rich but cash poor banks today. There are deeper and graver economic, social and cultural implications of how these banks disentangle themselves from the mess they are in and what shape and form they take in the future. While I might be willing to believe in the ability of this new crop of CAs to play an important role in the restructuring and other core business areas of these institutions, I am deeply skeptical, in spite of their "broad training", about their willingess, and yes, ability to go that extra mile beyond their immediate responsibilty to provide a fresh perspective or to lead a public exchange on wider ramifications of the proposed course of action and how those actions affect not just their employers but the society at large. CAs are CAs. Chartered Accountants. Individuals well versed in the nitty gritty of how businesses are run. View them as auditors, tax consultants, providers of business advisory services or as in the case of Nepal, a complete package solution to all your business worries. But business is business. It is not economics. It could be regarded as a functional subset of economics if anything. So frankly, with all due respect to my CA friends and their abilities to offer advice on issues of public importance, I would treat their recommendations with a grain of salt. As for the "wait and see" bit, personally I think the heydays of CAs in Nepal in terms of the dubious repute that comes with being one of a pioneering few is coming very close to being over. Yes, with increasing focus on both private and public financial transparency and accountability, one can expect to see a greater role of chartered accountants in general in the future but that same evolutionary tide is likely to sharpen the distinction between business and economics and underscore the greater scope and role of the latter in the public domain. |
| neeta | Posted
on 19-Sep-03 10:03 AM
Ruby Ji, I'll advise you to pls go through the syllabus of any CA course and you'll find out that book keeping is ONE of the subjects...and AUDITORS do not do book keeping. And many of the top audit firms in Nepal are nowdays devoting more time to consultancy than to the conventional audits. Pls be informed ! neeta |
| neeta | Posted
on 19-Sep-03 10:17 AM
Brook Ji & Ashu ji, I think CAs are being overly generalised when you say that CAs give unsolicited suggestions on economic issues. I'm sure there are only few of them who do that , and when you make such comments, it sends a wrong signal to other non-CAs... that CAs are trying to usurp what really belongs to the economists. Personally, I would think twice before entering into somebody else's domain. However, I'll also add that most CAs are becoming more aware of the scope of activities in future and we are bracing to meet the challenges and become better. regards neeta Prajesh ji, I hope you received the addresses ! |
| ashu | Posted
on 19-Sep-03 11:51 PM
Neeta wrote: "I think CAs are being overly generalised when you say that CAs give unsolicited suggestions on economic issues. I'm sure there are only few of them who do that , and when you make such comments, it sends a wrong signal to other non-CAs... that CAs are trying to usurp what really belongs to the economists." Well, the issue here is NOT that CAs "are trying to usurp what really belongs to the economists." And that is why, I was and am not being critical of CAs per se. (Hell, some of my clients and friends are CAs and RAs themselves, and yes, I do know all the big-hitters in town personally.) I have already said that they are respected, competent professionals for accounting, auditing and related consultancy work. But I would be leery of hiring them or even seeking their advice to address macroeconomic "how things fit in with one another and what that means" sort of big-picture issues -- issues that economists, especially articulate economists, have a better handle on. That's all. And so, the issue -- and my point -- is: That economists in Nepal -- as a group -- have NOT, for a variety of reasons, done enough to speak up for what value their profession could add to the better understand economic issues. And I think that's a shame -- and a problem to be addressed by economists themselves by asserting themselves all the more. So, my criticisms, if any, are directed more toward fellow-economists than to CAs and RAs. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 27-Sep-03 05:23 AM
I won't be surprised to read when CA's attempting to provide economic advisorship to govt. Also there are throat fulls of other examples where hospital peons and compounders are playing the role of medical doctor in many parts of Nepal. They diagnose disease, prescribe and distribute medicines, or administer shots. The role of CA should be limited to particular company's acconting profitability, rather to influence policy makers/legislatures that has implicit/explicit interest of the particular company rather on the national interst. Among few weakness for sound economic policy in the country is severly lack of well trained manpower. There are few handful of western trained economists who have many opportunities to work abroad due the complicated situation in the country. Those who decided to stay in the contry are somewhat polarized in party politics, some engaged in foreign aided diverse projects/consulting services, some in teaching, and very very few in national policy making activity. |
| ashu | Posted
on 27-Sep-03 09:49 AM
Bhunte, Sajha seems to be getting all the more popular in Nepal these days. I was pleasantly surprised to learn that my postings here have been read by some at Kathmandu's Institute of Chartered Accountants of Nepal (ICAN), and one of them -- who sounded like a wonderful person with ideas -- has contacted me to do some collaborative work after Dassain. I think that's great. My only professional interest would be that more and more private sector firms in Kathmandu should buy more accounting/auditing and related consultancy services to better their own business performance. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| Prajesh | Posted
on 27-Sep-03 11:41 AM
>>>I was pleasantly surprised to learn that my postings here have been read by some at Kathmandu's Institute of Chartered Accountants of Nepal (ICAN), and one of them -- who sounded like a wonderful person with ideas -- has contacted me to do some collaborative work after Dassain.>>> Ashu JI, Hope you will keep us posted of the outcome (Sajha, media or e-mail). I thank you and my fellow colleague (whoever he/she is) for taking the initiative. Thanks, Prajesh Acharya Vijaya Dashami Ko Mangalmaya Subhakamana! |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 27-Sep-03 05:41 PM
Ashu, >>>>>Sajha seems to be getting all the more popular in Nepal these days. <<<< Thats good news. Sajha is a e-forum of Nepali creams. Definitely those who visit, read, and interact would benefit from it in one way or other. Good to hear that some CAs read your posts and planning to take your service. Indeed one should realize the symbiotic relationships between different professions. Clear demarcation of responsibiities between diff professions and bartering their services always results in pareto superior outcome in the long run. |