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| allare | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 03:55 AM
OPEN LETTER TO THE U.S. AMBASSADOR ( MICHAEL E. M ALINOWSKI ) Mr. Ambassador, It is quite sad that the Nepalese politics is now repeating the well-known fable of two quarreling cats and a clever monkey. The hectic activities of some foreign missions and open and loud remarks of some ambassadors leave one in no doubt as to who calls the ultimate shot in the corridors of power in Kathmandu. As the head of the mission of the sole super power in the world and with a known McCarthyian ideological disposition for long you have been the most visible and vocal in this enterprise. Hence without any intention of pricking and instigating your super-power ego we would like to put forth our point of view on some of the points you have raised against us in public forum and media. We would here mostly confine ourselves to your address to the Foundation of Nepalese in America, Nepal branch, on September 12, 2003 ( The Telegraph, Kathmandu, September 17, 2003 ) and your interview to Spotlight Weekly ( September 19-25, 2003). First of all, your infamous slandering us as Hittlers propaganda secretary, Goebbels, has been in utter public distaste and well thrashed by Dr.Sunder Mani Dixit ( Goebbels Style , Kathmandu Post, September 15 ). We only hope that you wont put the good old Doctor in your endless terrorists list and target a Cruise missile at his popular clinic. No, we have not made any false propaganda against you and not pinpointed you as one of the chief wreckers of the recent peace talks without sufficient reason and proof. Isnt it true that when the first round of peace talks were scheduled to start on April 27 last you put us in the so-called other terrorists list on April 25 and simultaneously signed a five-year anti-insurgency agreement with the royalist regime ? This was accompanied by announcement of increase in annual military and non-military aid from $ 24 million to $38 million, and pumping in of undisclosed amount of sophisticated weapons and hundreds of military advisors and trainers for the Royal Nepal Army (RNA). Was this timing just coincidental ? If you really wanted to encourage the success of the peace talks, as you formally claim, couldnt you have waited a bit longer for all that ? As they say, one action speaks more louder than hundred words. And your words and deeds dont match. cont.. |
| allare | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 03:56 AM
In your Address and Interview you have talked of the lack of the Maoists credibility and deceitful return to violence and put all the blame on us for the breakdown of the peace talks. At the same time you have heaped unabashed eulogy on the regressive royalist regime and said, I believed the package of reform proposals that they presented during the third round of negotiations offered a solid foundation on which to begin discussions on how to help the most vulnerable members of Nepals population . Of course, you are free to choose your side. But this way you have completely betrayed your professed commitment to democracy. The so-called reform proposals by the royalist regime was nothing but a thinly veiled ploy to legitimize and perpetuate the royal take- over last October 4. The proposal did not address even the moderate 18-point demands of the five agitating parliamentary parties, and hence was rightly rejected by them. Then now could it meet our basic demands for structural changes to full-fledged democracy ? And you think it offered a solid foundation !! But foundation for what ? Democracy or royal autocracy? Any serious student of current political conflict in Nepal knows that the basic fight is between monarchy versus democracy. The whole thrust of the democratic movement since 1950 through 1990 to the present is the ultimate transfer of sovereignty and state authority usurped by the monarchy through its hold over the RNA to the sovereign people once for all. That is why we proposed the election to a constituent assembly, which is said to be the highest form of bourgeois democracy. You very well know constituent assembly is no communist slogan. Then how can you say we lacked credibility and were deceitful ? We are still prepared to stop the war and go for a free and fair election to a constituent assembly under an interim government. But is the monarchy prepared for that ? You say in your interview, Resorting to armed struggle to force your views on the government and/or general population is called terrorism, and thats exactly what the Maoists are engaged in. No, Mr. Ambassador, your definition of terrorism is not only completely off the mark but may put yourself in big embarrassment. By this definition of yours, the father of your nation, George Washington, would be the biggest terrorist, because he led Continental Army in armed struggle against the then colonial British government in America. Similarly your current boss George. W. Bush also cant escape the tag of terrorism, as he too is resorting to armed struggle to force his views on the government of Saddam Hussein and general population in Iraq. Armed struggle per se is not called terrorism. Perhaps it would serve you better if you read Prof. Paul Wilkinson, a known authority on terrorism and no Marxist by any chance. He says Terrorism is not a philosophy or a movement. It is a method. ( Terrorism Versus Democracy ). He further says, &.it is grossly misleading to treat terrorism as a synonym for insurgency, guerilla warfare or political violence in general. It can be objectively defined as a special method of armed struggle. He further damns persons of your ilk, The tendency of modern governments to apply the terms terror and terrorism exclusively to substate groups is blatantly dishonest and self-serving. You should also know that Marxist-Leninists-Maoists have always discarded and denounced terrorism as a particular method of war, but do not rule out selective red terror as a counter to white terror. You should also remember that the term reign of terror was the product of the great French Revolution after the deeds of the famous Jacobins. |
| allare | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 03:58 AM
You have tried to demonize us on the basis of some isolated incidents of unintended loss of life during some sabotage actions. Hence you very gleefully say, My God, we saw a school child killed the other day. This shows that the Maoists do not have any compunction against taking life. We know you are referring to the case of Deepak Gurung. Our Party has already expressed deep regret for the tragic incident. But such isolated cases do not make us terrorist , as Prof. Wilkinson rightly says, it sometimes happens that acts of sabotage do result in loss of life, but in such cases this is no terrorism as the loss of life was not intended by the saboteurs. What an irony that the perpetrators of worst genocide in Iraq and elsewhere are shedding crocodile tears over the accidental death of a school child in Kathmandu ? Isnt it the perfect case of devil reciting the scriptures? And you very conveniently push under the carpet the cases of daily massacre of dozens of unarmed persons by the RNA, like the cold blooded murder of 20 persons in Doramba (eastern Nepal) on August 17, which has been corroborated even by the official National Human Rights Commission. Isnt it hypocritical that those who try to demonize us for selected execution of informers and criminals under different professional or political garbs, keep mum when dozens are gunned down by the RNA in fake encounters ? How can it be an encounter, when dozens are killed but the RNA manages to capture only some vague socket bombs or just a lot of logistics ? When the Maoists kill somebody they are, social workers, journalists, teachers etc., but when the RNA kills somebody they are just Maoists!! What a double standard and travesty of justice/ morality!! We dont know whom you are trying to fool when you say, I think when they came above ground during this last ceasefire they were unpleasantly surprised by how little support they were able to garner from the Nepalis themselves, from civil society, or from the international community. Do you really think so, Mr. Ambassador ? Then we must really pity your poor information and intelligence services, if you are not deliberately fooling yourself. It is not we but you must have been unpleasantly surprised by the unprecedented and overwhelming support enjoyed by us among the masses both in rural and urban areas, intelligentsia, media and the international community during our seven-month overground period. Have you so conveniently forgotten the massive turn-out of the people ranging from 50 to 100 thousand in every mass meeting we organized in Kathmandu (April 2), Dhangadi (April 22), Janakpur (April 26), Dang ( May 1), Gorkha ( June 8 ) and elsewhere ? Could any other political party, or the King, for that matter, demonstrate such massive public support anywhere during the period ? What about a host of cartoons published in leading national dailies those days lampooning the poor attendance in public meetings where our talk-team members were not attending as chief guests ? And you still think we had little support among the people!! You are free to live in a fools paradise. As per the support of international community, everybody knows that we had positive response from everybody except your embassy. Rather you should be unpleasantly surprised that most of the foreign missions were eager to meet with us despite your overt or covert warning against that. Dont you feel rather embarrassed that your country, USA, could garner the support of only three other countries, that too same old puppet Israel and two nonentities, Micronesia and Marshall Islands, in the recent UN General Assembly vote on Palestine, and you have the cheeks to question our international support? Very good!! With this funny logic, democracy is also a foreign ideology. That is why you must have been promoting all homegrown and native military dictatorships, monarchies and Sultanates in most of the third world countries. But what about the preacher himself; is he a native or a foreigner to Nepal ? We dont want to enter into a futile polemic with you whether the philosophy of communism is discredited, or the philosophy of imperialism is discredited. But we very much understand how the imperialist world works!! Thanks to good old American scholars like Paul Sweezy, William Hinton, Noam Chomsky and others, and newspapers and magazines like Monthly Review, Revolutionary Worker and others published from the USA. We dont hate everything foreign, as you very hypocritically seem to preach to your puppets in Nepal. We see everything in a class perspective, and find a lot of friends even in the USA. |
| allare | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 03:59 AM
You have revealed your super-power arrogance and imperialist designs in the interview thus: We &will step in when we see freedom violated and our interests threatened. We have our interest and the interest of our friends in mind so where we can help out and we are asked to help out then we will. But whose freedom you are talking about ? There are different freedoms for different classes of people in a class-divided society. If you step in to defend the freedom of the monarchy and its genocidal RNA, then we are obliged to resist it to establish and defend the freedom of overwhelming majority of the people reeling under class, national, gender and caste oppression under the autocratic monarchical regime. The real essence of our Peoples War lies in this. As, per your unabashed super-power arrogance, we would just like to remind you what the late George Bernard Shaw said: Rome fell; Babylon fell; Scarsdales turn will come. And also it may be useful for you to read Prof. Paul Kennedys emphatic conclusion in his monumental work The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, where he says, In the largest sense of all, therefore, the only answer to the question increasingly debated by the public of whether the United States can preserve its existing position is no- for it simply has not been given to any one society to remain permanently ahead of all the others, because that would imply a freezing of the differentiated pattern of growth rates, technological advance, and military developments which has existed since time immemorial. In the end, Mr. Ambassador, we would like to stress what we have time and again made it clear that the current fight in Nepal is between an obscurantist feudal monarchy and a broad democracy, ranging from the bourgeois to the proletarian. Our immediate agenda has been to complete a bourgeois democratic revolution in the country and not to impose any communist system. Though in a future democracy everybody will be free to propagate and practice his/her ideology and philosophy in a peaceful manner. Since the whole country is now united to fight against the autocratic monarchy and its genocidal RNA, we are politely asking all foreign powers, particularly the USA and our immediate neighbors India and China, not to interfere in our internal affairs and let the Nepalese people choose their destiny themselves. We are committed to have good diplomatic and working relations with all foreign countries in the future. The essence of democracy , as they say, is to agree to disagree. Isnt it ? 24 September 2003 Baburam Bhattarai International Department C.P.N. (Maoist) http://www.cpnm.org/article-news/english/openleter_24sept.03.htm |
| allare | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 04:02 AM
bravo!!!!!!!! |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 04:31 AM
- http://www.cpnm.org/article-news/english/openleter_24sept.03.htm |
| jaya_nepal | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 08:54 AM
Bravo Dr Bhattarai.. !!! |
| Bilbo Baggins | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 08:59 AM
Nepalese society is going to perish if Maoist have there way. You can't be killing the same people that you pretend you want better lives for. Isn't that what Maoist are doing!! Just a comment! |
| VincentBodega | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 10:48 AM
Wow... I am sure Mr. Michael E. Malinowski must be crying like a little high school girl after reading this letter. --BV |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 11:38 AM
The last two paragraphs hold the key to Dr. sahib's real thrust, the rest is just rhetoric. Let me do a quick take on this: "Our immediate agenda has been to complete a bourgeois democratic revolution in the country and not to impose any communist system." Are the Nepali Maoists communists or bourgeois? Why are they claiming to be both? According to Marxist principle of dialectic, that can not be possible... "Though in a future democracy everybody will be free to propagate and practice his/her ideology and philosophy in a peaceful manner." So if the Maoists are going to give us freedom of ideology and philosophy in the future, why don't they practice it now? Why are they killing, maiming, or chasing out anyone that does not follow their line from the villages and districts now? Why can't they practice now what they promise us in the future? That is exactly what Pot Pot guys did in Cambodia...promise nice things and when you get total power do a total extermination! "Since the whole country is now united to fight against the autocratic monarchy and its genocidal RNA, we are politely asking all foreign powers, particularly the USA and our immediate neighbors India and China, not to interfere in our internal affairs and let the Nepalese people choose their destiny themselves. We are committed to have good diplomatic and working relations with all foreign countries in the future." So long as the foreign interference is on behalf of the Maoists, it is no interference. But anyone who supports the government is anti-peace or imperialists, nice logic. If the Maoists are really concerned with stopping foreign interference in Nepal, why don't they bring out similar statements against India? And why don't they close down their camps in India? "The essence of democracy , as they say, is to agree to disagree. Isn't it " It is! So one may ask of the Maoists, so why do you kill and torture people who dare to disagree with your party in the villages? It is so ironic to see the Dr. Bhattrai ranting about democracy in this manner. The government at least allows him and others to write and publish material that is very critical of the government in areas controlled by the government. I wonder what would happen to someone who wrote a similar letter against the Maoist leadership and printed it Rolpa or Rukum. The essence of democracy is not what we say about it, but what we do with it. SC, the occasional political pundit |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 01:08 PM
few things that i agree with Mr. Baburam Bhattarai are: 1. When the Maoists kill somebody they are, " social workers", "journalists", "teachers" etc., but when the RNA kills somebody they are just "Maoists"!! What a double standard and travesty of justice/ morality!! 2. What an irony that the perpetrators of worst genocide in Iraq and elsewhere are shedding crocodile tears over the accidental death of a school child in Kathmandu ? Isn't it the perfect case of devil reciting the scriptures? 3. Don't you feel rather embarrassed that your country, USA, could garner the support of only three other countries, that too same old puppet Israel and two nonentities, Micronesia and Marshall Islands, in the recent UN General Assembly vote on Palestine, and you have the cheeks to question our international support? |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 01:11 PM
subha chintak...........you are right when you say that if democracy means the right to agree to disagree.......then why are maoists killing those who disagree with them and their policy. when i read through the article........i had gathered some support for Mr. Bhattarai within myself............but that one obscure statement again toppled my faith in his previous writings. otherwise......the article is great......fabulous......as they say. |
| Thanda Beer | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 01:16 PM
Well said SC... I agree with you. To me, the Maoist leaders are all Shosak. Coz they went to the mountainous regions where people are not educated, they imposed their sweet words of revolution, lured them to the heavenly future after revolution, and used them for their third class philosophies. And they did with their camps in Other country, and what not. |
| Ruby | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 01:50 PM
Well Baburam Bhattarai is right when he says that Americans should stop interfering with our domestic problems look at Vietnam, Afganisthan, Isreal, Peru etc. |
| bhenda2 | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 02:43 PM
So how long are we suppose to let these Maoists run our country....I see no harm in taking help from America or anybody who is willing to help...the sooner we get rid of Maobadis the better for Nepal and NEpalis... well Ruby ji...I think we had no choice but attack Afganisthan because they were letting terrorists who were our enemies live in that country...thats how I feel. Everybody knows Vietnam was a big mistake but Iraq I am glad Saddam and sons are gone. |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 03:45 PM
Bhenda2.......few things that i would liike to say to you: 1. you said "the sooner we get rid of maoists the better are nepal and nepalis." but i think that should not be our point. our point should not be trying to get rid of them by wiping them off through the nozzels of rifles and guns but by understanding and asking what they want. by now we already know what they want. they want a state without king and royalship. but that's not all. they want something more too. so what we should be focusing is "what else do they want and how much and to what extent is their want limited?" therefore i would like to say that nepal and nepalis are better off only by having peaceful logical discussions with maoist leaders.......wiping them off through the face of nepal is in no way a solution. 2. this is reagarding point 1. let's recall Mao Tse Tung's struggle to life the state of chinese people. even Mao and his followers as well as his army was labelled as terrorists by the capitalist american government at that time. had Mao lost his fight he would have still been called a terrorist and would be equated with bin laden and so all. But Mao won his battle for the uplifting of the chinese poor class and middle class, and hence he is a national hero in china and not only is he a national hero in china but a source of inspiration to the rest of the world that is struggling for the uplifting of the middle and the lower class. therefore let us not accept the american government's words and let us stop calling moists as "terrorists". let me clear the definition of terrorist. Bin laden is a terrorist because he attacked america and killed thousands of people. But what was his motive? Did he attack america to free the american middle class and lower class? Did he mean to uplift the american standards of living? Did he mean to uplift anyone's standards of living in afghanistan? NO. but the attacks done by maoists on a few politicians, police and army personnel is just a casualty in the process of their "freedom". They have a cause to fight and that's what drives them and if there are hinderances in the path, they have no choice but to eliminate them. now you might say.......why kill the normal laymen or the normal civilian then?.......well......i know they dont intend to kill normal laymen...whoever innocent is killed is a "casualty" in the process of freedom. my point is: Maoists are not terrorists....they are freedom fighters in their own respect whether we agree or not. remember: if maoists one day happen to rule the country then these very so-called terrorists will be labelled martyrs .....as they say in our own nepali saying "history is the horse of the winner". 3. vietnam was a big mistake........absolutely right. but do you realise that us government never thought vietnam was a mistake untill few years back.even today many think vietnam war was justified. only after many years of war was it declared or decided that vietnam war was a mistake. so my friend.......wait for a couple of decades and then your son and daughters will be reading "iraq war was a mistake". 4. one extra bit of information for you: every time in the history of america.....whenever there is recession(economy is plunging)......american presidents have turned to only one source for reviving the economy........and that source is "war". war creates jobs.....factorires become busy making weapons......people buy more food and suppliese because they want to be fully equipped in case something happens.....and boom.......there's a sudden economic boom(growth in the economy).......let me tell you my friend.....war is the easiest way that any american president can find of restoring the economy although this restoration doesn't last very long.....the same thing is happening now. vietnam war......first world war.......second world war.......gulf war......etc.etc. all the war that the USA has participated was motivated by only one thing "economy".......what do you think?........american presidents really think of the homeless in Rwanda and the poor people in Bosnia??......NO. they dont give a damn to these people. this is all i have to say. if you are not satisfied with these comments .....feel free to express yourself.....after all we live in the country of freedom that our president boasts of. |
| le chef du nuit | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 05:18 PM
yes and the american government, which did nothing when pearl harbor was attacked, jumped into the fray of of the second world war as soon as the stock market took a nosedive. the same is true with afghanistan. the bush government, looking for some way to revive the economy after the recent setbacks, conveniently used the attacks of 9/11 to start a massive war campaign. |
| Biswo | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 05:49 PM
What is sorry about all that is happening in Nepal is this is the first time we have seen foreigners actively seeking role in Nepal's politics, and that is, my friends, odious. If we had our parliaments alive, no one could tell us who to make prime ministers. Now, we don't have. The king is himself unpopular. No wonder, the Maoists have become considerably stronger after Birendra's death.This king is so stupid, he is playing right into the gameplan of the Maoists. By encouraging direct intervention of foreigners in Nepal's power making, he is even alienating neutral elites of Kathmandu too. [Remember the article of Sundar Mani Dixit in The Kathmandu Post somedays ago.] The Maoists had hard time dismantling our local bodies, and this thing was conveniently handed down to them by our regime in KTM. See, how easily the countrysides have since then melted down to be Maoists Controlled Region(MCR), and believe me, it is not fluke. In military expeditions, rarely any feat is fluke.To add salt to wounds, RNA personnels have been unable to garner sympathy from plebeians. The reason why RNA's image has been so pathetic now is because they think , they have been blinkered to think, that they serve the king and not the people. That is seen in their disregard for respect of common people. In this situation, if BR Bhattarai says democracy is his final goal, he will give up arms for constituent assembly, why not international body, including UN, be appealed to mediate in our ceasefire, and make the Maoists fulfill their word? Let's dump the king, and make our nation better:-) |
| Biswo | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 05:51 PM
Sorry, in my first line "this is the first time .." should be read as "this is the first time in our generation's life time..". |
| khimu | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 07:26 PM
Hell ya! |
| eNigma_too | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 08:14 PM
To all America basher...here is a piece of article that I saved for you all.. Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record: "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets ofParis. I was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those." Stand proud, America! |
| GurL_Interrupted | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 08:44 PM
PowerfuLL! |
| oys_chill | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 09:25 PM
Yes indeed such a powerful display of ideology! i should say indeed. I was thoroughly iimpressed. For a moment, it seemed like this was not the leader of maoist, but a very impartial leader speaking who has a very deep appreciation and care for his country..we all wished, don't we?? what a shame!! but regardless ! this guy has the same charisma Hitler had in his era. If a skeptic like me, can get impressed with his mere letter to an ambassador, I am sure he has an acute sense of brainwashing the mass with his ideology...esp. the rural section. I agree with vincent bodega ;) enigma too.......are u trying to post a joke? please make it more coherent..for I fail to laugh or comprehend yor sympathy for the most powerful nation in the world......NEPALIS Should go and rush to help the victims of san francisco earthquake? errr.........hahahha! ok hasne time bhayo jasto cha! or are u just a devout disciple of our braindrained LORD BUDDHA? :) |
| failedstate | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 09:35 PM
Yes indeed, it had a similar profound effect on me like the message by Bin Laden (reproduced below) for about 13 seconds. ============== Full text: 'Bin Laden's message' The voice - thought to be Bin Laden - said it was time to get even The Arabic television channel al-Jazeera has broadcast a message believed by experts to be from Osama Bin Laden. Here is the statement, as translated by BBC Monitoring: In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate, from the slave of God, Osama Bin Laden, to the peoples of the countries allied with the tyrannical US Government: May God's peace be upon those who follow the right path. The road to safety begins by ending the aggression. Reciprocal treatment is part of justice. The incidents that have taken place since the raids on New York and Washington up until now - like the killing of Germans in Tunisia and the French in Karachi, the bombing of the giant French tanker in Yemen, the killing of marines in Failaka [in Kuwait] and the British and Australians in the Bali explosions, the recent operation in Moscow and some sporadic operations here and there - are only reactions and reciprocal actions. These actions were carried out by the zealous sons of Islam in defence of their religion and in response to the order of their God and prophet, may God's peace and blessings be upon him. White House 'criminals' What [US President George] Bush, the pharaoh of this age, was doing in terms of killing our sons in Iraq, and what Israel, the United States' ally, was doing in terms of bombing houses that shelter old people, women and children with US-made aircraft in Palestine were sufficient to prompt the sane among your rulers to distance themselves from this criminal gang. Do your governments not know that the White House gangsters are the biggest butchers of this age? Our kinfolk in Palestine have been slain and severely tortured for nearly a century. If we defend our people in Palestine, the world becomes agitated and allies itself against Muslims, unjustly and falsely, under the pretence of fighting terrorism. What do your governments want by allying themselves with the criminal gang in the White House against Muslims? Do your governments not know that the White House gangsters are the biggest butchers of this age? [US Defence Secretary Donald] Rumsfeld, the butcher of Vietnam, killed more than two million people, not to mention those he wounded. "If you were distressed by the killing of your nationals in Moscow, remember ours in Chechnya" [US Vice-President Dick] Cheney and [US Secretary of State Colin] Powell killed and destroyed in Baghdad more than Hulegu of the Mongols. What do your governments want from their alliance with America in attacking us in Afghanistan? I mention in particular Britain, France, Italy, Canada, Germany and Australia. We warned Australia before not to join in [the war] in Afghanistan, and [against] its despicable effort to separate East Timor. It ignored the warning until it woke up to the sounds of explosions in Bali. Its government falsely claimed that they [the Australians] were not targeted. 'You will be killed' Why should fear, killing, destruction, displacement, orphaning and widowing continue to be our lot, while security, stability and happiness be your lot? If you were distressed by the deaths of your men and the men of your allies in Tunisia, Karachi, Failaka, Bali and Amman, remember our children who are killed in Palestine and Iraq everyday, remember our deaths in Khowst mosques and remember the premeditated killing of our people in weddings in Afghanistan. If you were distressed by the killing of your nationals in Moscow, remember ours in Chechnya. Why should fear, killing, destruction, displacement, orphaning and widowing continue to be our lot, while security, stability and happiness be your lot? This is unfair. It is time that we get even. The message threatened more attacks from supporters of al-Qaeda You will be killed just as you kill, and will be bombed just as you bomb. And expect more that will further distress you. The Islamic nation, thanks to God, has started to attack you at the hands of its beloved sons, who pledged to God to continue jihad, as long as they are alive, through words and weapons to establish right and expose falsehood. In conclusion, I ask God to help us champion His religion and continue jihad for His sake until we meet Him while He is satisfied with us. And He can do so. Praise be to Almighty God. BBC Monitoring, based in Caversham in southern England, selects and translates information from radio, television, press, news agencies and the Internet from 150 countries in more than 70 languages. |
| garibmaila | Posted
on 25-Sep-03 11:29 PM
Dr. Bhattarai, you really kicked that ambassador`s ass! and i think bhattarai also asked china and india to keep out of nepal`s internal affairs. so his statement is fair. about the camps in india- people, they are fighting a guerilla war...............wake up! and to that lonely america lover, u can be proud of shit too. that`s your freedom!! but any serious grown up understands why america raced to "help" other people!!! who are u trying to fool? or are u urself in a dream? |
| whine and chij | Posted
on 26-Sep-03 07:06 AM
open letter to brb: do your country a favor--phuck off and die, pissant. uncle shyam |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 26-Sep-03 12:27 PM
a response to eNigma_too:: 1. america helped germany after world war was because it wanted to give germany something back .....the american troops killed millions of germans and therefore america regretted this killing later and offered to help germany.........let me remind you that america did not do a favor.......america was only trying to cleanse it's blood-covered hands with the act of helping germany.......we only know how many people Hitler killed because we have only been told that. I would suggest you to update your knowledge on world war 2....... also.......america helps japan becasue it has realised that it should not have bombed hiroshima and nagasaki..........please recall the american government officials and army men saying that "they did not know atom bomb would be so powerful"........when they bombed hiroshima and nagasaki they realised the power of atom bombs after thousands of innocents were killed in those two cities........so again to cleanse it's bloody hands america helps japan till today.......... so let me tell you.......by helping japan germany and other countries....america is not doing a favor........it's trying to purify itself through the sins it committed. 2. america helped france then because was a lot stronger than america in economic development and was probably the strongest country in the world......america's motifs for helping france was to get some help in return when ameica would be in trouble.........but do you really think that people should expect help from others after helping them??.........isn't that like a barter system.......please......as lord krishna said "do your duty and don't expect any returns for your duty"..........but time and again america always expects returns for it's help........if it wants returns then that's not called "help"........my friend that's called "trade" and whatever you saw in the streets of paris was not a revolt against america.........it was a demonstration against the american policy of attacking iraq.........that has nothing to do with america as a whole.......that has to do with american politics and politician's policis only....... people in the streets love america and americans........they just can't stand the nonsense talks and actions of american politics.......that's all. 3. when earthquake hit indian soil in gujrat......did america help??NO. then which earthquake are you talking about??.....america did not help india because it gets nothing in return......... america helps japan in earthquakes because american army personnel have camps and training places in japan.......so instead of just sitting their and watching people die in earthquake debris ......they offer some helping hands.........no big deal...... when america was hit by tornadoes..........many international communities would help but they won't get "visa" to come in america because every american government offical in the airports and immigration thinks that every muslim is a terrorist.......also they think every asian coming to united states wants to settle here permanently......this is the reason why asian and middle-east countries did not offer help ........but besides that france germany and italy did ask united states if any help wa s needed......and united states refused it. update your knowledge my friend. 4. Marshall Plan and Truman policy are two biggest scams in the hitory of mankind.......so let's not talk about that.....if you really want to know about that then go ask any specialist in this matter and they will explain you why they are the two biggest scams. 5. there is no need to open a factory for building planes if you want only one plane or 5 planes to operate in a country......what do you do for break fast when you are out of bread and butter??.........do you go in the market and buy a few bread and butter or go on and open a bread and butter factory??........stop talking absurds my friend.......be logical be practical. maybe that's the reason why even rich countries don't have their own plane companies........because they don't need thousands of planes every year......... 6. stepping on moon is not the best achievement that a human can achieve.......also scientists are still debating over the fact.....they think it is a scam.......so let's wait until it's proven that american s have indeed stepped on moon. also it's alll about money..........in the past russians had enough money so they were the first to go in space.........after that americans had enough money so they were the first to go on moon........they are rich so they can afford it.........we are poor so we cannot afford it........that's it. not a big deal......if we could afford itbwe would be there first.......this doesnot make america great.......my friend........being rich doesnot mean being great. 7. america helped to build the railways in india and germany and so on. So what??........even chandra samser helped built railroads in india by providning with the wood that is used in railway tracks........so what??........does that mean india should build railway tracks in our country??NO. it's their choice now. we offered to help then and if they want to help now it's good. But if they dont want to help then also it's fine. we are not complaining. then why does america want help for helping them. It's called "help" becasue you dont want anything in return. If you expect something in return then it's "trade" as i said earlier. also france and germany offer help for many things from time to tiome.......but america refuses to take help.........it's america's choice........we are unaware of this fact because we don't hear about this in the news. whatever help america has done is becasue america expects something in return.........do you really think america cared about kuwait when iraq attacked kuwait??....NO......they saw an opportunity to get free oil from kuwait so they attacked iraq and saved kuwait.......can't you see why petrol is cheaper in america than in nepal...although nepal is so near to petrol exporting countries......???.....hello!! |
| hansy420 | Posted
on 26-Sep-03 12:51 PM
mickthesick, quite reasonable argument overall...but only thing i didn't get was "also france and germany offer help for many things from time to tiome.......but america refuses to take help.........it's america's choice........we are unaware of this fact because we don't hear about this in the news. " - how were u aware of these facts if we don't hear 'em in the news? From special sources may b? |
| jhismisebihani | Posted
on 26-Sep-03 12:52 PM
Mithesick, No offense but I have to ask. Dude, did you just get out of a North Korean Reeducation camp? Just curious. JB |
| john doe | Posted
on 26-Sep-03 01:42 PM
JB, you took the words right outta my mouth! I'm surprised he didnt end his rag-tag collection of third-rate conspiracy theories with "Long live our beloved leader Kim Il Sung"! |
| bhenda2 | Posted
on 26-Sep-03 02:25 PM
Mickthesick sounds like Baburam himself.....Hopefully Mikethesick does not live in this country....person who has nothng but bad things to say about this country should be man enough to live somewhere else also... This country has given me all the things that I had only dreamt about...so I am glad to be American...and believe me Mikethesick bro...nothing you say is going to change my mind about America.. |
| GurL_Interrupted | Posted
on 26-Sep-03 03:05 PM
Why r u all after mick? *Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!* I think he has made some valid points! which unfortunately are true! I couldnot disagree any less even though there are some points I might have to add (which might differ from his points)! So, does that make me BRB? Nice! Actually Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat! |
| GurL_Interrupted | Posted
on 26-Sep-03 03:07 PM
Or do I look like someone who has just got "out of a North Korean Reeducation camp?" Superrrrrrrrrrrrrr! |
| czar | Posted
on 26-Sep-03 04:19 PM
America built the railroads in India ? When ? Where ? I'd wager a dollar to the penny that Americans never drove a single spike into even one rail road tie in the India. It was the British Raj that did it, with the usual motley crew of Irish and Scotsmen. I've listened to tales from some grizzled old timers, as a wee lad, that spoke of "Jabal-pore' and 'Kan-pore' rail road depots. Of trains being stopped by elephants in the Assam on their way to Dibrugarh. (They still sometimes are.) Along with admonitions to people long past as 'bloodly blighters that damn near set up a funeral blaze' with their 'lazy bloody arses asleep' and almost didn't 'switch the bloody tracks' for the express 'to thunder through.' The first time the Americans were in India in any reasonable number was towards the tail end of WWII, in late 1943, to set up and man forward bases in Arunachal Pradesh, eastern Assam, Mizoram and Nagaland to face the Japanese threat eastwards from across the border in Burma. This was done in collaboration with the British military already fighting a winning battle in the jungles of Burma with the valiant 'Gurkhas.' The joint Anglo-American command base was in Shillong, Assam (now Meghalaya state), a picturesque hill town at 5000 feet in the Khasi hills. But by that time, the railroads along the Brahmaputra were already long built and operational in support of tea estates and logging operations. What the Americans did to was was to widen some roads for bigger and heavier trucks and build new ones into the forest tracts and some border regions. I knew people who worked for the American army doing this while they were teenagers, some are still around. Right, kong Ruck ? [One colorful character often reminisced of the day he twirled an American soldier's Colt pistol like they did in the 'Talkies' and ended up blowing the tip of his prized cowboy boots made to order by the local shoemaker. He was shaken by the near loss of his toe, but it was the ruin of his prized boots that left him near inconsolable, or so his buddies reported. He never touched a pistol again, he said. But, I digress here] But, no, American built no railroads in India that I know of. If the gentleman who made that claim would perhaps enlighten us? Its an area that interests me and anything new of its history would be welcome. |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 26-Sep-03 07:16 PM
Thank you for the arguments and also for the support. and as always i again have a few commenst for a few people. Hansy420: u said "how were u aware of these facts if we don't hear 'em in the news? From special sources may b? " my answer: ask any american with a little bit of knowledge about american history ...ask them who helped america win the Revolutionary War of 1776 ? The answer will be France. if you don't know what revolutionary war occured in america in 1776 then there's only one thing i can say "sorry"......let me give you a hint to my question or say your own question ....(the hint: France gave statue of liberty to the united states after this war).......figure it out my friend. and also let me emphasize.......this is only one mere example. ......and yeah.....i do have my special sources for such knowledge....i just seem to be more interested in knowing such things than you.....that's my source. the same thing applies to help provided by germany.......for example: technological help in the form of the IBM company and it's computers. jhismisebihani: let me answer to your curiosity......NO i did not get out of the North Korea Reeducation camp.......in fact i have never been there before. John doe: Kim Il Sung might be your leader.....not mine...... bhenda2: i not only sound like baburam but sometimes i idolize him too but not to the extent that he has been......i only relate to a few ideologies that he also seems to follow ......and that's all that is in common with me and that person .......i in no way support his mass murdering......i am always against his murdering missions....... and let me tell you something more.......i have said nothing bad about this country(united states)......i have pin-pointed only the flaws in this country's system and it's predecessors and that's all.......if pin-pointing this country's flaws makes me an anti-american then i am glad to say "yes! i am anti-american" Gurl_Interrupted: everyone was busy thrashing my viewpoints......and there you show up with a bit of supprt for me......that bit of support was like an oasis....thank you. |
| hansy420 | Posted
on 26-Sep-03 09:45 PM
mickthestick, chill dude! all i wanted to know was how you were able to gather all these info....nothing personal!!! damn!! |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 26-Sep-03 10:12 PM
hansy420: sorry if i was too harsh on explaining things......i just tend to do that sometimes......you know.......getting excited at times.......not that there's anything wrong with that !! |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 26-Sep-03 10:54 PM
What is sorry about all that is happening in Nepal is this is the first time we have seen foreigners actively seeking role in Nepal's politics, and that is, my friends, odious. Biswo Xiansheng, Duibuqi, I beg to differ from you lao pengyou. Nepal in the 60's, 70's and 80's was worst than that it is today. "f we had our parliaments alive, no one could tell us who to make prime ministers. Now, we don't have. The king is himself unpopular. No wonder, the Maoists have become considerably stronger after Biredra's death.This king is so stupid, he is playing right into the gameplan of the Maoists. By encouraging direct intervention of foreigners in Nepal's power making, he is even alienating neutral elites of Kathmandu too" Biswo, again isn't this a rather strong statement to make? Even when we had a parliament, it didn't choose the PM... nor the Kng.. Our Pms were and are "made in India". "In this situation, if BR Bhattarai says democracy is his final goal, he will give up arms for constituent assembly, why not international body, including UN, be appealed to mediate in our ceasefire, and make the Maoists fulfill their word? Let's dump the king, and make our nation better:-) " Hmm.. Ok, here's a million dollar question: What will be the political system like in the Republic of Nepal? Who will be in charge of the state affairs? You guys only csream your throats off about republicanism and why its good, but you guys never give us any convincing or even remotely believable argument on the political system and other things..its like saying, I wnat to go to graduate school but I have no idea what to study.. you know yoiuir goal but don't even have a clue on how to ac hieve those or why you set those goals in the firast place.. namaste here's a piece of info: Actually, americans built railroads and hospitals in China in the 30's and 40's. There's this fascinating acoount of one of the rockfellers getting kidnapped in China. |
| failedstate | Posted
on 27-Sep-03 12:47 AM
No civilization or a country is perfect and the US is no exception. Yet, if given a choice, a vast majority of those who are engaged in this discussion, including those who are bashing the US of A, will chose this country to settle. Just look at the lottery line in Kathmandu. Many many hundreds of thousands from the third world countries emigrate to the western world, and their first choice of destination: US of A. Many hundreds die in the box car and in the containers. Hundreds of smuggling rings are there to accomplish such activities. The young people from the western europen countries are heading to the US and many Europen countries to find new lives. Nepal is number one, for me at least, after that I must rank this country second. My brother who spent two years in Japan and six years in Europe before finally settling in the US has a very different perceptive. In Japan he was treated like shit, and the Europeans did not consider him a person (he delivered cars). Now married with kids, he feels very comfortable in America. (He went to school here too.) Many who are doing the bashing are perhaps right here in the US. Not everything this country does is fair, but then who does? Even the hardcore Maoists would not go to North Korea, if they would be given a chance to go to South Korea. How do I know? My uncle's friend from Pokhara did just that. So cut the crap! That does not mean our Nepal is not a great nation. Of course it is!!! |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 27-Sep-03 10:31 PM
failedstate, I wanquan (totally) agree with you. |
| jhismisebihani | Posted
on 28-Sep-03 09:18 AM
Failedstate, You said it the way it is. I am not a blind America fan. It has a lot of flaws, especially in its foreign policies but what country/super-power does not? and I agree with people when they criticize intellegently and with valid points. But what ticks me off is folks blindly bashin U.S. just because they can but would be the first in line to appy for green card or a visa to get into the U.S. These days, to me it seems like its as hip to be bash America as it is to be gay (nothing against homosexual). I mean I am not an American citizen but I do feel a sense of loyalty to US because it has given me whatever little I have today. Right now if i am given a choice to live in a world dominated by U.S. of A as it is right now, or Russia, or China or Saddam Hussein, trust me I would chose to live in the World with much-bashed U.S. fo A any time of the day with al its flaws. |
| Eminem8 | Posted
on 28-Sep-03 11:08 AM
Polonius: What do you read my lord? Hamlet: Words, words, words Quote: Shakespeare That is exactly whats going on here, these are just words..........with absolutely no meaning if they are not put into action. "As they say, one action speaks more louder than hundred words. And your words and deeds don't match." Says the good Doctor, I ask, does yours...........doctor? bottom line, innocent people are still dying in Nepal, for causes that are, atleast to me, still in the dark. "We are still prepared to stop the war and go for a free and fair election to a constituent assembly under an interim government".................why all this killing for the past seven years, then? Why didnt you just put down your arms and come forward in one of the several elections that happened in the past seven years? "When the Maoists kill somebody they are, social workers, journalists, teachers etc., but when the RNA kills somebody they are just Maoists!! What a double standard and travesty of justice/ morality" ......................you talk to us about morality, doctor...........you who are plunging hundreeds of our nepali teen sons and daughters to this war for your own benifit, while your own lives a luxirous life in London???? And about labeling them as "teachers" and "social workers" and what not, i personally knew atleast a couple of those kind of people killed, that were just teachers or social workers or a member in the VDC. You do not consider the VDC to be king's people (or whatever you call them), do you........because that would just be totally hilarous!!!!! "But such isolated cases do not make us terrorist", hell, you kill a kid and say you are not a criminal(terrorist)? "The whole thrust of the democratic movement since 1950 through 1990 to the present is the ultimate transfer of sovereignty and state authority usurped by the monarchy through its hold over the RNA to the sovereign people once for all." Is that so, doctor??? In that case, i might even respect your ultimate goal. But this is some way to go about it, good sir!! Because i sure as hell dont see any royal family suffering from this war. All i see is the general people in harm's way, the same people you, vow, are fighting for. Hell, the name you have chosen for yourself does not even fit the goal you are trying to accomplish, according to you. If, you say everyone that works and/or supports the curent regime is to die, that is a very horrible sight, for i am sure everyone here know and cares for someone that falls in that category. And the final and the most disgusting lie ever, comes not until its climax: "The essence of democracy , as they say, is to agree to disagree. Isnt it ?", Is it?? then why is it that you go on killing everyone that seems to disagree with your views, and your violent ways. See, I am no learned person of politics or social sciences, and yet I was able to see through you, and how your words differ from your actions, the same thing you are accusing someone else of, in this very cunningly written letter. A day will come when everyone will be able to do this, including the peasents from the hills that support you right now. They will know that what you are feeding them is a cart load of bolony, then, mark my words doctor........you are doomed for eternity.........for you will go down in history as a very smart, evil person resopnsible for thousands of deaths, and probably much worse......something that generations to come will suffer from....a long civil war, with no end........and the cause, would still be unknown. -Shady |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 28-Sep-03 01:41 PM
Eminem8: you're very right in mentioning the statement "The essence of democracy , as they say, is to agree to disagree." as i mentioned earlier....i had a little support garnered for Mr. Baburam's whole american-imperialism-die-kinda-speech but then he lost all my support due to that very last statement....... i think it's time that Mr. Bhattarai realises that writing such prolific letters and making bold statements like the one mentioned above only doesn't make a better leader or a so-called Jesus-like-savior-for-the-nepalese-people........if he has the sanity to write such things and make such bold statements then why in the hell is he afraid of giving up his fight and participate in the election?? but then again......i don't think he really doesn't want to participate in the elction.....he desperately wants the maoist party to be registered and participate in the upcoming elections.......and it's the government,other political parties and India that are not ready for letting maoists participate in the elctions coz they have a fear that moists might sweep the elections... now see.....that's what's happening in nepal......everyone knows that the war will be terminated for ever if the maoists are allowed to register as a political party and are allowed to participate in elections..... that's the same thing that happened in china....mao formed his party.....won....and the war was over. but that will definitely not happen in nepal.....because India will never want nepal to be controlled by the extremist communists like the maoists.........they dont want nepal to be another communist state.......and believe it or not my friend......even USA doesn't want nepal to be a communist state... it's all foreign politics......and it's the nepalese people that suffer..... F@#$ India...and hell with USA. |
| Biswo | Posted
on 28-Sep-03 03:07 PM
IFji, Sorry to get back to you belatedly. Busy due to upcoming midterm:-) Yo Dashain ko belaa ke gaali garnu Gyanendra yaa arulaai? So, let me put Gyanendra's stuff on shelve for now. He did one thing good last week: he didn't give a damn to that Briton 'special envoy'. I was very much pissed off with that person. I mean what the hell the UK guys think about themselves? We are not their protectorate or anything like that. They need to look at mirror, see how they are descriminating against Gurkha soldiers, and increase pension of our soldiers, then they can talk with us like friend. I am also pissed off at this new 'transit visa regulation' from those people.Frankly, I am not happy about Nepal-UK relationship, and UK's bullying, anti-human right attitude is to be solely blamed for this. Anyway, have good national day vaccation over there. |
| eNigma_too | Posted
on 28-Sep-03 08:31 PM
Reply to MickTheSick: MickTheSick, you certainly seem to be sick "mentally" as your name suggest, for where else can anybody come up with such an "out of the world" theory as to why America helps nations around the world. Your whole case discussion should go into "height of absurdity" catagory. And the fact that few people feel that your points are valid is even more hilarious considering the fact that Sajha is assuming the position as a top socio-political discussion forum for Nepalese worldwide. Your whole discussion rest on words like regretted , realisation , purification and such litarery words which has no bearing on how the world politics works. >1. america helped germany after world war was because it wanted to give germany >something back .....the american troops killed millions of germans and therefore >america regretted this killing later and offered to help germany.........let me remind >you that america did not do a favor.......america was only trying to cleanse it's blood->covered hands with the act of helping germany.......we only know how many people >Hitler killed because we have only been told that. I would suggest you to update your >knowledge on world war 2....... >also.......america helps japan becasue it has realised that it should not have bombed >hiroshima and nagasakiso again to cleanse it's bloody hands america helps japan till >today.........so let me tell you.......by helping japan germany and other >countries....america is not >doing a favor........it's trying to purify itself through the sins it committed.) American killed millions of Germans !! How on earth did you get into possession of such an important piece of information ?? World war II saw death on both sides, but your assumption that Americans killed millions of germans is completely baseless. Just for the sake of discussion you come up with such absurd reasoning. How come you never back up up your claim with valid data and solid facts. As about Japan, I do not think that Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombing was right. The death of thousands of innocent civilian is certainly a dark age for humanity. But, on the other hand we certainly cannot deny the fact that Japan was bent on becoming a regional power back then and intended on becoming one at the cost of millions of deaths starting all the way from Korea, parts of china, Borneo, all the way to North-east India. And one important fact, It was Japan who attacked Pearl Harbor first, resulting in thousands of death and thereby bringing America into World War II. . What about the hundreds of thousands of sex slaves that Japanese troops forcefully made out of captive Koreans. Though I do not feel good to say it but it is a fact that had it not been for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the war in south-east asia would have had a worse toll. There was no sign of the Japanese stopping at all. America is helping Japan not because to adone the sin as you so gladly like to put it but for the mere fact that they are a very good trade partner and there is always the humane cause. Peace Corp, Salvation Army, World Aid, and many , many more such organizations are American creation and we cannot deny the help they have given to 3rd world countries. You talk of America trying to purify itself of the sins it had committed, Now isnt this such a childish reasoning. No country has ever done for the greater good of the whole world then has America, and America, ,my friends, did not emerge as the most powerful nation from dust overnight. It had its own share of suffering and hardship. But they fought and they prevailed. They did not have some god given wealth but they created it from whatever the have. They are rich not because they have luck on their side, but because of their hard work. You act as if you are an authority in global history but sorry to tell you, your discussions and theories sounds like a third graders work. (to be continued) |
| eNigma_too | Posted
on 28-Sep-03 08:49 PM
>2. america helped france then because was a lot stronger than america in economic > development and was probably the strongest country in the world......america's >motifs for helping france was to get some help in return when ameica would be in > trouble.........but do you really think that people should expect help from others >after helping them??.........isn't that like a barter system.......please......as lord > krishna said "do your duty and don't expect any returns for your duty"..........but > time and again america always expects returns for it's help........if it wants returns > then that's not called "help"........my friend that's called "trade" and whatever you > saw in the streets of paris was not a revolt against america.........it was a >demonstration against the american policy of attacking iraq.........that has nothing >to do with america as a whole.......that has to do with american politics and politician's > policis only....... America liberated France from the German, so how would that make France the strongest country in the world back then ? As about you quoting Lord Krishna, I should say it makes me laugh. How can you talk about moral righteousness only in case of American policy but leave out so many other blatant violation of humane virtue by so many other nation. How can you so casually say that Americas motive for liberating France was to get something in return ? It was World War II and France was under Hitlers army so it was natural for the Allies troop to liberate France because of its strategic value. Thousands of American troops parished in Normandy in their fight for France liberation, sure America deserves a helping hand when she is in need. The original thread was an excerpt from an congress editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator after the September 11 incident when American troop were after Bin Laden in the mountains of Afganisthan. The Iraq attack was to happen 2 years after so it has no relevence here in our discussion. |
| eNigma_too | Posted
on 28-Sep-03 09:36 PM
>4. Marshall Plan and Truman policy are two biggest scams in the hitory of >mankind.......so let's not talk about that.....if you really want to know about >that then go ask any specialist in this matter and they will explain you why they >are the two biggest scams. Sounds like another of those conspiracy theorist at work here. You seem to have not a minute trace of optimism in you. You see a dark side in everything, without even thinking of the validity of your thoughts. As about your specialist, who are they ?? Do you always go by what those specialist of yours say without doing your own research. Just a case of insufficient homework, that is what I would label your reply. The Marshall Plan cost American taxpayers $11,820,700,000, which was pumped into post-ww II Europe to help them in recovering economically. Because Global economy works in a chain, obviously America was concerned about its own economy too. On December 10, 1953, George C. Marshall received the Nobel Peace Prize in Oslo, Norway for his work. Now, I wont be surprised if you start saying that Nobel Peace Prize is America centered, biased, and has some hidden motive. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 29-Sep-03 04:23 AM
"Sorry to get back to you belatedly. Busy due to upcoming midterm:-) " mei you wenti aa! Good luck with your midterms. dashain ko bela ma k gaali garnu. let's wish everyone well. |
| hansy420 | Posted
on 29-Sep-03 07:20 AM
good work enigma_too! |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 29-Sep-03 09:54 AM
reply to enigma_too:: you wrote "MickTheSick, you certainly seem to be sick "mentally" as your name suggest" my answer: "yes i am sick as my name suggests." you wrote: "American killed millions of Germans !! How on earth did you get into possession of such an important piece of information ?? " my answer: hansy420 asked me the same question before . he asked me "how do you know france helped america?"........and i mentioned him to turn the pages of history and look back at the year 1776....... now to your questions...i would refer you to the year 1946......again you might say as you have said "World war II saw death on both sides".......but the important thing is my friend......"numbers".......look at the number of deaths on the both sides........america and british troops killed way way more people than japan or germany or others combined. my point is......there is always death on both sides.....but casuality shows which side was brutal.......and the brutal one here is american and british troops. i agree that japan was becoming a regional power...... you wrote: "But, on the other hand we certainly cannot deny the fact that Japan was bent on becoming a regional power back then and intended on becoming one at the cost of millions of deaths starting all the way from Korea, parts of china, Borneo, all the way to North-east India. " my answer: so what do you mean?.......wasn't britian about to be the ruler of almost half the globe once including the mighty america??.......doesn't that mean even britons killed many pople around the earth to become the ruler??...or do you think the people from other countries welcomed their move on becoming the world ruler and donated their own regime to the british??.......britain once was on the way of conquering the world but no one ever thought of bombing london. then how come hiroshima and nagasaki had to be bombed when japan was following the footsteps of britain ?? a country is about to become a reginal power doesn't mean it's two bigger cities should be destroyed with atom bombs......if you think what america did in japan was right then my friend i think you should believe that what Osama did in New York City was right because america is not only becoming a reginal power today but a global power house. you wrote: " It was Japan who attacked Pearl Harbor first" my answer: so what??.....somebody had to attack another at first.......it had to be either japan or america.....as it turned out it was japan who attacked. but let me tell you this.....the american president and the american army general all knew that pearl harbor was about to be atacked.....they even knew the day and time of the attack......and still they kept it a secret and did not move their army from pearl harbor........this was all a plan.....they wanted thier own soldiers to die because they wanted a "reason" to attack japan and use the atom bombs.......what better could there be a way to test the capacity of the bombs they just built?? now i know what you might say......you will say "how come you get so close and important piece of information?"......my friend.......i read books.....i read all kinda books.....history books .....books about american presidents and all. in one of such books i read a journal from the united states army board and here's an important line from the journal .... ""...everything that the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States..." US ARMY BOARD, 1944 if you want more information on these things then go to your college's library and check out any book on the pearl harbor incident....you will find out that the pearl harbor incident was mainly a result of american mischief and partly the japanese attack. you wrote: "What about the hundreds of thousands of sex slaves that Japanese troops forcefully made out of captive Koreans" my asnwer: not a big deal.......every country has it's rough days........korea had it's rough days so japanese made them sex slaves........the africans were made slaves in america.....kamaiyas were made slaves in nepal.....almost every country in the history has had its slaves.... japanese made koreans as sex slaves doesn't mean japan has to be bombed......did anyone bomb america when it forcefully brought africans from africa to america to make slaves?.....then why should america make an excuse out of the sex slaves in japan to attack japan??.... let me tell you again.....america only needed an excuse to attack japan and it had got one in form of korean sex slaves and pearl harbor. you wrote: "You talk of America trying to purify itself of the sins it had committed, Now isn't this such a childish reasoning" my answer: no this is not a childish reasoning....as i said i have all the reasons to say that america is trying to purify itself. you wrote:"They are rich not because they have luck on their side, but because of their hard work. " my answer: i never disagreed with the fact that whatever riches america has made is due to hard work.....i do agree that they are rich due to their hard work and their commitment......but what i was saying was that it is because they are rich that they can go on moon......(i mentioned this because someone wrote that why has nepal never been on moon then?.....and i said because nepal is not rich like america. i did not mean to say america is rich by wrong means.) you wrote: "You act as if you are an authority in global history but sorry to tell you, your discussions and theories sounds like a third graders work." my answer: i have never acted as if i am an authority in global history......i have only mentioned and argued on the points and events that i have "studied" in noted books written bu acclaimed writers. |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 29-Sep-03 09:59 AM
continued from above:: you wrote: "As about you quoting Lord Krishna, I should say it makes me laugh. How can you talk about moral righteousness only in case of American policy but leave out so many other blatant violation of humane virtue by so many other nation" my asnwer: i wrote about lord krishna in this issue because here we were talking specifically of america and not about other nations.......if this was an argument about other nations i would have definitely brought out their negative points as well. you wrote: "Thousands of American troops parished in Normandy in their fight for France liberation, sure America deserves a helping hand when she is in need. " my asnwer: salute to those troops who died in the world war 2 but then again i say "they should not have been sent there in the first place" america's participation in the world war was it's economic policy....american government wanted the economy to revive from it's recession and they wanted a quick revival.......so war was the easiest way. |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 29-Sep-03 10:07 AM
you wrote: "On December 10, 1953, George C. Marshall received the Nobel Peace Prize in Oslo, Norway for his work. Now, I wont be surprised if you start saying that Nobel Peace Prize is America centered, biased, and has some hidden motive" my asnwer: i still say that those two are scams......and for the argument about nobel peace prize......yes....nobel peace prize is america centred. how come only american allies only got the nobel peace prizes when mahatma gandhi ws nominated for so many times? or do you think mahatma gandhi did not deserve a nobel peace prize? gandhi was nominated many times but always it was some american ally or an american advocator-of-peace who always got the award......so my friend i say....nobel peace prize has always been biased. can't you see?......yaser arafat got his nobel peace prize because at that time palestine was a american supporter......but things have changed since then and now palestine is no more supporting america......and you know what the result was??.......nobel peace committee even had a meeting whether they could take yaser arafat's name off the list of nobel peace prize winners.......they wanted his name to be omitted from the list because they argued that he no longer represents peace......comeon people this is nobel peace prize!!...not a Miss Universe contest where you can take back the crown if Miss Universie starts dating within a year of winning the crown or if she gets fat....gimme a break! |
| czar | Posted
on 29-Sep-03 03:32 PM
Mick, Let me disabuse you of a few notions about how Japan comported itself during WWII. Listed below are a few factoids that will provided some clues on the inhumanity that was the hallmark of Japanese rule. Comparable even to the feared and hated Nazi SS, the Imperium brutalized, in every sense of the word, every nation it marched through. Have you considered the Bataan Death March? "During the march from Mariveles, on the southern end of the Bataan Peninsula, to San Fernando, 55 miles away, 76,000 American and Filipino prisoners of war were bound, beaten, or killed by their Japanese captors. Some were bayoneted when they fell from exhaustion. Some were forced to dig their own graves and were buried alive. Only 56,000 prisoners reached camp alive. Thousands of them later died from malnutrition and disease." I have visited Corregidor island fortress and its 12" monster guns and the mile long barracks that were the last redoubt of the American and Filipinos defending Luzon. Yes, I visited the torture chambers in Fort Benifacio in Manila and the prison camps and torture chambers on Sentosa Island just off Singapore. Does the name Changi mean anything other than the gleaming airport in Singapore ? Used to be where the Japanese took you for interrogation in WWII. The Bridge On The River Kwai & The Death Railway. Ever heard of them ? In 1942-43, during World War II, the imperial Japanese Army built a railway from Ban Pong, in Thailand, to Thanbyuzayat, in Burma. This railway, 415 kilometers long, and built through some of the most inhospitable disease ridden terrain in the world. It is said that "this railway was built at the cost of a life for every sleeper in its 415 Kilometer journey." An estimated 13,000 POWs and 80,000 Asian labourers died of disease, sickness, starvation and brutality at the hands of the Japanese Army. The Nanjing Massacre : In December 1937, the Japanese army invaded Nanking,China. In the following six weeks, Japanese soldiers killed over 300,000 civilians and POWs. The brutal murders included mass rapes, using Chinese civilians for bayonet practice, and other atrocities.Do you have understand bushido means? Or its impact on the way the Japanese conducted themselves and treated others? It is estimated that Japan, during the course of the war, killed over 35 million people, massacred over 300,000 civilians in 6-8 weeks in Nanjing, forced hundreds of thousands to become slave laborers/sex slaves and committed biochemical warfare in labs and battlefields. Thats a pretty scary record by any standards. I personally knew aviators that flew bombing runs in Indochina. Men who flew McDonnell Douglas DC-3 'goony bird's and DC-6 'over the hump' into south west China to Chunging. (IF can give you details on this.) I count among my ancestors some that fought and survived both the European and Asian theatres of Allied operations. I also met others that saw action in Germany and Italy, both in the Allied and American forces. They recounted tales that would curdle the blood of the hardest of men. I find you defending the horrors of the Japanese Imperial Army based on what you have read. Which journal captured even a trace of the sense of the scope and depth of the horror that was WWII ? Its easy to sit back in comfort now and pontificate on morality without the slightest experience of horrors long past. But have you ever looked into the eyes of a man that HUNTED other men and KILLED hundreds, scores of them BY HAND? Or watched him turn savage whilst dreaming of things that occurred years and years ago? I have. Yes, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were devastating. But it also brought to a close one of the most savage periods the world has seen, and lets not forget that or brush it aside so casually. I have no intention of getting into an incoherent and long winded argument with you or anyone else here. But it surely helps to be able to differentiate between INFORMATION and KNOWLEDGE. Wouldn't you agree ? |
| eNigma_too | Posted
on 29-Sep-03 10:34 PM
Does that satisfy you , Mitch ? These are few of your weird beliefs: 1) You think that the moon landing was a hoax. (so did they they shot it in an indoor studio?) 2) Nobel prize is a conspiracy by Americans (they do all the selection and the final decision) 3) American killed more Germans then German killed anybody. 4) American government wanted the economy to revive from it's recession and they wanted a quick revival.......so war was the easiest way. 5) It was a bad decision on America's part to send troops to liberate French from Hitler. 6) The American president and the american army general all knew that pearl harbor was about to be atacked.....they even knew the day and time of the attack......and still they kept it a secret and did not move their army from pearl harbor........this was all a plan.....they wanted thier own soldiers to die because they wanted a "reason" to attack japan and use the atom bombs.......what better could there be a way to test the capacity of the bombs they just built?? 7) America only needed an excuse to attack japan and it had got one in form of korean sex slaves and pearl harbor. My friend Mitch, with such a primitive brain you will certainly make it into darwin awards soon. |
| eminem8 | Posted
on 29-Sep-03 10:36 PM
Czar ji, With every bit of respect to you and your vast knowledge about everything possible......... dont you think wars would be just a little less horrifying and a little less, shall we say, just a little less inhumane, if the casulties were limited to the combatants? I am not saying that the treatment to the POWs were justified, but they were there to fight, kill or be killed, or maybe even worse, as you portrayed.... But, I dont think that justifies for dropping nuclear bombs on cities.......... I agree that it brought the most savage period to an abrupt end............come to think of it, we could just drop a dozen bombs like those, or even powerful, all around the world........bring an end to all this brutality in the world!!!! But...........i dont know much...so........i dont know........ Anyways, how is everything else going for you, dai? Me, i am just getting by.... -Shady |
| eNigma_too | Posted
on 29-Sep-03 10:37 PM
Ode to thy cerebrum !! Oh Mitch, Oh Mitch What art thou ? with such stupid theories and stupid argument why do want to increase your "bhau" ? Calm down, accept your mistakes do not not fear, have no shame after all what we know of it ? don't you think life is just a game ? ;-) |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 30-Sep-03 12:53 AM
I totally agree with Czar. Yes, the ambitious Japanese imperial army driven by the bushido code of the Samurai warriors committed atrocities all over the world. Of all the atrocities they committed, the most henious was the Nanjing Massacre (nanjing da tu sa), in which many MANY people lost their lives. If it wasn't for the 3 foreigners, many more inncocent Chinese civilians would have died, many more Chinese women raped and many men used for sword and bayonet practices. Let's look at the other side of the picture before blaming the US for the bombings in japan. I am of the belief that it was necessary given the circumstances then. To end the world war II and to stop the Japanese imperial army from committing more atrocities, it was the only solution. Although, I don't say that the bombings and killing of innocent civilians was right, but there was no other way to stop the Imperial army guided by the bushido code and the old myth that said the emperor was the son of god. These two dangerous cultural traits, combined with the ambitions of a certain military clique which believed that its their cultural duty to put the whole world under their emperor's feet, and they --the Japanese--being the only superior race in the world, gave way to so much atrocities and genocides--probably more civilians died from the hands of Japanese than from any other force in the world war II. Also, the US occupation of Japan put an end to the militant nationalism, imperial ambiltions and helped in modernizing Japan. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 30-Sep-03 12:55 AM
world under their emperor's feet, and they --the Japanese--being the only superior race in the world, read this as = world under their emperor's feet, and they --the Japanese--being the only superior race in the world, it wa stheir moral and cultural duty to kill and enslave the others... |
| garibmaila | Posted
on 30-Sep-03 02:19 AM
the issue really got twisted! anyway it interesting reading all these logics people put in here! mickthesick, nice reply! eNigma too, i think you should study more about history and politics! and yeah it`s better to put incidents as logics rather than just treating someone inferiorly with words! about japan, they were as brutal as any other imperial super power! yeah the japanese were reallu brutal in china! but does it justify the american attack? about pearl harbour, it was just a game america played. yes the japanese attacked it first but someone had too! was the relation between america and japan good the day before the attack? america was actually giving japan a silent support till the japanese controlled china and closed down the china for america! yes economic revival was the cause for war. anybody disagreeing with this better go and learn a lil more history and economics! |
| garibmaila | Posted
on 30-Sep-03 02:23 AM
well i don`t live in america and i have never even thought of applying for that shit called green card!! america bashing with proper knowledge is the need of the day!! just bashing doesn`t really help though! you first need to kick the imperialist out of you, then out of your family, society, and country! it`s appears to be a gigantic task, but atleast i am trying to do so. |
| eNigma_too | Posted
on 30-Sep-03 06:42 AM
Garibmaila...and Mitch I still can't understand why the blind hatred for America inspite of all its good deed. I agree that America has its part of sin but if you weigh it with any other major nation you will always find it lighter. MickTheSick didn't give any reply just answered with more counter-questions. Garibmaila, you admired Mick for his reply while he didn't give any hard fact in support just vague personal feeling, on the other hand Czar came up with all the solid data and proved facts that history students all over the world know and nothing for him. I pointed out all of Mick's argument...and if you still belief those are true then I am sorry to tell you, your IQ has just dropped rock-bottom. I don't know what history and economics are you guys talking about. But whatever I have read (and beleive me , I have done plenty of reading) is read allaround the world from schools to colleges. What history you have read, I don't know but I feel like it must be some obscure papers written by some mad historian. I don't think any history in the world tells us that America was responsible for the world war, that they put hundreds of thousands Jews to gas chambers,that they knew about the pearl harbour but still let their people die because they wanted a reason to attack Japan. You people keep telling me to read more history and world politics and base your whole response that simple sentence. Give me facts not some distorted ideas, give me real data not some self made gibberish, point me to a place where whatever you have written came from. Can you do that ? If you want my source I can give you dozens right now. The allies did not kill all the Nazis after the war. They hounded them all and put them to trial (something a civilised nation will do) and prosecuted them. My earlier personal attack was nothing but an effort in putting a little bit of humor to this never ending discussion. But I guess it went over your head !! |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 30-Sep-03 09:53 AM
anigma_too:: if you think my iq has dropped to rock-bottom then that's alright with me.....i will try to bring it to average someday....but thanks for the information.....otherwise i would never have known the level of my iq. u say that my arguments are not based on facts.....and that's not true. as i mentioned earlier......whatever i have posted in this thread are all the products of my reading thorugh various books and the conclusions that i derived from those readings......and i think your calling those writings as obscure is really not a good recognition of the famous historians who spent decades of their lives researching on those topics.....so keep it cool and believe me that those are not only my views but the views supported by historic evidents and essence. ever heard of Arthur Schlesinger?? he is a noted american historian and to my knowledge he knows more about american history of warfare and american politics more than you or me. even he thinks that america attacking japan was a mistake and that president FDR let the pearl harbor incident happen.....he could have avoided it because the intelligence had already obtained the information that japan would be attacking pearl harbor on what day and what time.......if you think that even noted historians like Schlesinger are not worthy to be quoted here then i have nothing to say....but let me remind you that he is not the only one who says that pearl harbor was america's fault......he is just one out of hundreds of american historians who say this........now don't tell me that these people are insane or anti-american.....that really won't justify your answer here. czar provided with very good details and informations about the brutality of the japanese forces.....and i really appreciate that. but the thing to consider is that.....at the time when japan was performing such brutal operations of invading other countries and waging war and destruction upon them.......was Britain not the same?.....japan wanted to expand it's territories and so did britain......the only difference is that Japanese were more brutal than the Britons......and i will never deny this fact. Yes the Japanese were more brutal than britons......so does this mean the acts of Britons becomes more justified because they are less brutal?? No. Both Britain and Japan had the same mission.....conquering the world. the difference was only the way the mission was carried out...japanese were more brutal.....but that doesn't really make much difference does it?? it's war .....it's battle.....it's supposed to be brutal.....the main reason why japanese lookedf more brutal was because they were fighting against equally stronger forces like korea ....and others...so the war took a brutal form. On the otherhand......Britain was busy attacking the other asian countries which were really not prepared for the wars and were not sufficiently as equipped as korea......so Britain's campaign was less brutal than japan's. if the other asian countries like india, nepal etc. were to be as heavily equipped with weapons as korea was......then my friend i can assure you that even britons would have been as brutal as japan was......we were not very strong so britain managed to capture india and most parts of nepal with only small resistance.... also talking about pearl harbor......don't say that whatever i said about pearl harbor in my writings above is just my imagination.......by reading your replies i have already a sense that you have sufficient knowledge about american history......actually you have way more knowledge than me ......and still you deny the fact that pearl harbor was america's fault??.... let me say something about pearl harbor again. these are the things that i read in a history book ......so these lines in no way reflect my own views....these are more like an evidence in support of my views. ""On the evening of December 6, 1941, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the president of the United States, received a message intercepted by the U.S. Navy. Sent from Tokyo to the Japanese embassy in Washington, the message was encrypted in the top-level Japanese "purple code." But that was no problem. The Americans had cracked the code long before that. It was imperative that the president see the message right away because it revealed that the Japanese, under the heavy pressure of Western economic sanctions, were terminating relations with the United States. Roosevelt read the thirteen-part transmission, looked up and announced, "This means war." " "The Japanese secret declaration of war never reached the people who needed to hear it the most - Admiral Husband E. Kimmel, commander in chief of the United States Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, and the unit's commanding general, Walter Short." "Marshall and Stark, supreme commanders of the U.S. Army and Navy respectively, later testified that the message was not forwarded to Kimmel and Short because the Hawaiian commanders had received so many intercepted Japanese messages that another one would simply confuse them. A pathetic lie." "Internal army and navy inquiries in 1944 held Stark and Marshall derelict of duty for keeping the Hawaiian commanders in the dark." so this is it......this was what FDR had planned...he wanted to join the war but did not want america to attack first......so he let japan attack and kill 2500 united states soldiers in pearl harbor.... |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 30-Sep-03 10:16 AM
Few more important informations about FDR:: ever heard of Masonic order of worship? well......their main objective is to establish one government in the world. The highest rank that a masonic worshipper can reach to is 33 and these ranked ones are called 33rd degree masons. Masonic order is a satanic worship. FDR was one among the many 33rd degree satanic worshipping masons. They aim to rule the world with only one single governing body and that was why the "league of nations" was originally created. It was not created to maintain peace in the world as we studied in our history books in grade seven. It was actually the idea of such masonic leaders to rule the world with one single government. When the league of nations seemed powerless because it could not achieve what it had actually been establ;ished for, then FDR decided that another world war was necessary to establish one regime rule in the world. So he and others formed the "united nation" so that they could rule the world with this single authority. Ever wondered why the united states has so much power in the United Nation?? because my friend ....even George W Bush is a 33rd degree mason. i know what you are thinking.....you might be thinking that my arguments are baseless and are ridiculous.....but let me tell you again.....my arguments may seem baseless and ridiculous until these informations will be in public knowledge....today not many know of these kinds of details because as i said earlier .....we are not taught these kinds of details in history classes.......we are not taught that FDR and GWB are masonic worshippers and their only objective is to establish one regime rule in the world.... call me obscure...call me baseless.....call me ridiculous....but that's what's true and that's the fact. want to know the names of some more satanic masonic worshippers??......Bob Dole and jesse jackson. want to see the proof of my arguments??.....look at the dolalr one bill of the united states.....you will find these words "ANNUIT COEPTIS".......meaning "announcing the birth" in latin......also you fill find these words "NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM".....meaning "a new order of ages" in latin. those two phrases are like the guru-mantra of the satanic masonic worshipping. you might say again??.......why mention these masonic points when we are arguing about america and japan in the world war?? my answer: the reason why america participated in the second world war was because of the wish of FDR ......a satanic masonic order worshipper who is devoted to creating a one regime rule by his country in the world....... what about war in iraq??......do you think all americans wanted that??..in fact you and i all know that most americans did not want the war.......the senate did not want the war......the congress did not want the war......only a bunch of people wanted the war.......George W Bush atatcke iraq because the motive is the same as FDR.....and they both worship the same order. i know this all sounds ridiculous..... FDR should never have attacked japan..... GWB should never have attacked iraq... amen. |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 30-Sep-03 10:17 AM
and yeah........about those dollar bills........FDR started that trend of putting those satanic symbols in the dollar bills. |
| john doe | Posted
on 30-Sep-03 12:29 PM
Alrite, that was the last straw. In my view, u just lost all your credibility with that moronic hogwash about the 'masons'. The conspiracy theories u are regurgitating from what must be some third-rate paperback are so ludicrous that its not even funny. If u want to have an opinion on history, I'd suggest u stick to the facts and steer away from sensationalist literature. Just a friendly suggestion to someone I consider to be intelligent but a little too gullible and melodramatic for his own good. And I'm sorry if i sounded a little pretentious there. JD |
| czar | Posted
on 30-Sep-03 12:55 PM
Mick, I now take excerpts of your writings and comment and question them. "Both Britain and Japan had the same mission.....conquering the world. the difference was only the way the mission was carried out...japanese were more brutal.....but that doesn't really make much difference does it?? it's war .....it's battle.....it's supposed to be brutal....." From your statements , one concludes that in the late 1930's A. Britain was ALREADY "busy attacking the other asian countries which were really not prepared for the wars in a battle to conquer the world". B. The Japanese joined battle "and Japan had the same mission.....conquering the world" to ensure they got a slice of the pie as well. Lets start with the "busy attacking other nations" part. At the onset of WWII, just which countries was Britain waging war on? NOBODY ! Perhaps that is a fact reported in those heady journals you seem to favour, but is historically invalid. If you were referring to colonization, then that was already established long since, and in fact, they were dealing with headaches of troublesome colonies with nationalist movements stirring up discontent during the '30's. But NOWHERE was Britain engaged in an active war of aggression to conquer territory, especially NOT in ASIA ! By the time of Pearl Harbour, it was over a decade that Japan had already embarked on its brutal expansionist path."In 1931 Japanese forces invaded the northeast of China, claiming that Chinese forces had destroyed the railway at Lake Liu near Mukden in southern Manchuria, although this had actually been done by the Japanese themselves to provide a pretext for the invasion. This marked the beginning of the so-called Manchurian incident. In 1932 the Japanese government annexed the northeast of China and set up the Manchukuo puppet state. In reality, Manchukuo was a Japanese colony and was governed by the Kwantung Army, the most powerful of the Japanese forces." Further, it was only in the early 80's that it came to light that biological warfare experiments were conducted with vigor on the local Chinese populaton. In 1925 the Geneva Convention prohibited the use of chemical and bacteriological weapons. The Japanese were fully aware of this contravention. Keep in mind that this convention was drawn up by a shocked and chastened world that saw the horrors of chemical warfare in WWI. So no, all is NOT fair in war. There is also a Geneva convention on the treatment of prisoners of war. A convention that was violated with scant regard by the Germans that the world saw a Dachau and Aushwitz. The Japanese had their moments of infamy in the Philippines, China, Burma and on the Malayan penisula. I do not know of the Allied side using Japanese POW's for practice bayonet practice or for experiments with biological warfare agents. It might also be of interest to some here, that I had also spoken to a Japanese naval officer who was onboard his vessel just outside Hiroshima when THE BOMB was dropped. Last I heard, he continued to live in mid-western Nepal. Yes, Nepal. Dozens of American vessels carrying supplies to the beleagured British and French had already been sunk by the submarine hunter packs in the Atlantic. Yet America was NOT YET in the WAR ! America did NOT need Pearl Harbour to get into WWII, if an attack on their ships was what they were waiting for. If one is determined to blame America for WWII then any seemingly plausible conspiracy theory can be cooked up. But if one is to examine undisputed historical facts, then regardless of the devastating effects of the payload of the Enola Gay, the Allied forces were driven to reach for this the ultimate weapon in their arsenal. They had no other choice to but to stop all that suffering. As I have said before, and stress once again, the circumstances leading to that decision is beyond the imagination of any armchair historian of the present. I rest my case. Eminem: Early last year, I saw a bumper sticker that read "Kill em all, let Allah sort them out." Taking that thought further, we could detonate all the accumulated nuclear weapons on earth and simply destroy the entire planet in one mighty fireball. Then its no more war, no crime, no further worries about greenhouse gases or extinction of orangutans, no taxes, no homework, no exams, do Yetis exist beome a moot point etc. Heck, then we can ALL rest in peace. Sounds like a fetching idea. Just pull the trigger whenever you've a mind to. ps. I appreciate your compliment about my supposed 'vast knowledge.' Aww, shucks. Me is just a simple feller with a longing for them thar hills, I tell ya. |
| czar | Posted
on 30-Sep-03 01:05 PM
An I still can't decently wrap momo. Yet. So if'n you is gonna hit that dreaded button anytime this weekend, the cloud of atoms that used to constitute me ole bones is STILL going be longing for ALOO KO ACHAAR and MOMO. An I got that from a JOURNAL, so dont be arguing with me no more, ya hear? |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 30-Sep-03 02:58 PM
john doe:: sorry for the inconvenience that i caused to your thinking mind by mentioning the satanic masonic worshipping..... but don't you think that was also a factor in FDR letting pearl harbor happen??...he was pre-occupied with satanic thoughts through his way of worshipping...... czar:: again.....i appreciate your knowledge......and yeah one thing is for sure ....that this argument can go forever because there are always differences in people's point of views about the world history and the world events. so i dont think we will ever come to any conclusion in this topic.....but then it's not always about the solutions that we argue.....sometimes it's for satisfaction of one's own mind and sometimes it's for the expression of discontent towards some happenings...... i think so far....i have been arguing about my discontent with the decision of the united states entering the world war scene.......and you guys have been arguing in support of it.....it's like the two sides of the same coin....now take me as a pessimist or something else...that's all dependent on the onlooker's judgment.....but then again i was arguing for my beliefs.... have a happy dashain everyone..... note to everyone: if anyone thinks i am trying to pull off from the discussions....please let me know...... |
| SITARA | Posted
on 30-Sep-03 04:40 PM
Mickthesick ji: I have read up on "Free Masonry" as well as the "eye" on the dollar bill! Intriguing thought isn't it??? :) But, I would suggest reading those things with whole sackloads of salt. Enjoy the readings but don't dwell too much upon them! |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 30-Sep-03 04:44 PM
sitara ji !! so did you notice the signs on the dollars one bill??....if you are convinced of those signs then do you still not believe that the president who ordered those signs to be put in the bills would not follow the same worshipping??.......why would FDR insist on putting those satanic symbols if he were not following the same satanic masonic worship?? just a thought...... |
| eNigma_too | Posted
on 30-Sep-03 07:20 PM
Mick, FreeMasonry is not satanic, Lucifer worshipping cult. Freemasonry is the world's oldest and largest Fraternity. While its traditions look back to earliest history, Masonry in its current form appeared when its public events were noticed by the residents of London, England in 1717. Although Masonry - particularly in its earliest days - had some elements of secrecy, the first 'exposure' of the supposedly highly-secret Masonic ritual actually appeared in 1696! Since that time, there have been tens of thousands of books published about this 'secret organization'. And for over three hundred years, despite the good works done by its members, Freemasonry has continually suffered the slings and arrows of those who seek to use it's quiet nature against it. Freemasonry's singular purpose is to make good men better and its bonds of friendship, compassion and brotherly love have survived even the most divisive political, military and religious conflicts through the centuries. Freemasonry is neither a forum nor a place of worship. It is not a religion nor does it teach a religious philosophy. For nearly three hundred years it has attracted men of high moral character who support the tenets of temperance, fortitude, prudence and justice. |
| eNigma_too | Posted
on 30-Sep-03 07:28 PM
Noted below is a list of few famous masons: Abbott, Sir John J.C. - Canadian politician who served as Prime Minister (1891-1892). Acuff, Roy - "King of Country Music" Beard, Daniel Carter - American writer and illustrator. In 1905, he founded the Sons of Daniel Boone which in 1910 became the first Boy Scout organization in the US. Berthold, Bartholomew - Businessman who organized the first territorial bank in the Louisiana Territory Benton, Thomas Hart - U. S. Senator from Missouri for 30 years and Grand Master of Iowa Adams, Sherman - Governor of New Hampshire and US Congressman Aguinaldo, Emilio - President of the Philippines, he declared their independence in 1898. Aldrich, Nelson Wilmarth - U. S. Senator, known for his extensive impact on banking reform. He also served as Treasurer of the Grand Lodge of Rhode Island. Aldrin, Edwin E. - Known as "Buzz" - American astronaut who as a crew member of Apollo 11 became the second human being to walk on the moon (July 20, 1969). Alfond, Harold - Owned famous 'Dexter Shoe Company' and noted philanthropist. Sports complexes throughout Maine made possible by his generous contributions bear his name. Armstrong, Louis - Known as "Satchmo." American jazz trumpeter. A virtuoso musician and popular, gravelly voiced singer, he greatly influenced the development of jazz. Ford, Gerald R. - 25 year Congressman and Minority Leader of the US House of Representatives, he was appointed Vice President of the U.S. in the wake of the Spiro Agnew scandal. When President Richard Nixon resigned, he became the 38th President of the United States. Ford, Glenn - Famous US movie actor Ford, Henry - Invented the first gasoline powered automobile in 1893, founded Ford Motor Company in 1903 and mass-produced the first widely available and affordable car AbBentsen, Lloyd M. - A life member of his Masonic Lodge in Texas, Bro. Bentsen served the U. S. with honor and distinction as a bomber pilot in WWII, a US Congressman, Senator and Secretary of the Treasury. His run for the presidency in 1976 allowed the country to meet this kind and considerate man. He was the Vice Presidential candidate with Michael Dukakis in the 1988 campaign where, during the debate with his opponent he used the now-famous phrase "I knew John Kennedy....". Bro. Bentsen's daughter advises us that he suffered a stroke about two years ago and is now confined to a wheel chair but in November, 2000 will celebrate his 57th wedding anniversary! His daughter Tina was a member of Rainbow and is now an Eastern Star. Her daughter is a Rainbow Grand Representative so the Masonic connection runs deep.bott, William "Bud" - Famous half of the Abbott & Costello comedy team. Bell, Lawrence - Bell Aircraft Corp. Bellamy, Francis J. - The Baptist Minister who created America's Pledge of Allegiance Benes, Eduard - President of Czechoslovakia elected in 1935, he led his nation's government into exile after the outbreak of World War II. He resigned in 1948 when he was forced to yield to a Communist directed cabinet. Bennett, Viscount R.B. - 12th Prime Minister of Canada 1930-35 |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 01-Oct-03 03:13 PM
the people in the list seem to be pretty good and seem to have done good in their life...but the main issue i was raising was that "masonic worship" is satanic worship.....although it's satanic worship many masonic leaders seem to have done good jobs......but not all have been good....that is why i pointed out Franklin Delano Roosevelt and George Bush as two masonic followers who seem to have exploited their satanic worshipping......and thus applying into their practical lives. again.....there might be an argument that the two people that i accused of misusing their positions have nothing to do with their masonic nature or worship........but really.....i don't see any need for an american president to order the satanic symbol of their cult to be printed in the nation's dollar bills??......i definitely think FDR practiced his cult to the extreme and utilised the messages that he learnt..... and the very same thing applies to George Bush. |
| failedstate | Posted
on 01-Oct-03 06:51 PM
Add to your list famous Thomas Jefferson. Furthermore, it is not a Satanic cult; they do not worship Satan. It is just a fellow of the brotherhood. Weird but not Satanic. It is like saying: Yoga is a cultish practice (religious rights's platform during Bush Sr's election) Masons did not believe in Catholocism, so they had to create a secret society to avoid persecution. They started creating rules to help each other through secret signs and gestures. Most importantly, they did not believe in mixing religion and the government. As a result, many of the founding fathers of this country, who were assoiated with the free masocn society, fought hard to keep religious out of the US constitution. (There is other reason too.) The Shriners are an example and they do good deeds: hospitals for children. With the strong Constitution in place, the Masons are no longer so secretive anymore. Think of it as a Thughy Society in India until about 100 years ago. Except that the Thughs in India worshiped Kali and engaged in murder and robbery. The British wiped them out by hanging them by the thousands. |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 06-Oct-03 10:32 AM
so ...did the british do a good thing or a bad thing?...just curious to know because the same could be done to the masons you know?.....maybe they should also be wiped out??.....hmmmmm....just thinking. |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 06-Oct-03 10:45 AM
okay....let's forget about masonic worship now. let's talk about the nature of a single person and not as a group of masons....my interesting subject: president George W Bush. i think he is purely motivated to serving his own purpose and the purpose of his party rather than serving the general american public. time to time his decisions tend to reflect the favor towards the rich population in the united states. for example: additional taxes imposed in the import of steel from japan and other countries so that the steel industrialist in the united states can sell their steel easily and comfortably in the united states without any competetion....remember that in the united states steel is still manufactured using the technology used in the first world war....but japan korea and other countries have made huge advancements in this field....steel made in japan is 10 times better than in america......and also remember that the free trade treaty should have favored japan and korea not only for the sake of free trade but also for the american consumers who can get benefits with better steel from japan.... just an example. i will have some more later......right now it's time to go to class....... |