| Username |
Post |
| Racist |
Posted
on 06-Jul-01 11:13 AM
I got a bone to pick with those bahuns feeling discriminated...
All you guys who are feeling discriminated beacause you are being called Bahun. Then what about all the other ethnic groups whose whole culture is on the verge of being wiped out thanks to the govt.(majority bahuns & chetri's). eg. The Newari culture is on the endangered list of being exttinct. Same with the THaru culture as well. Thanks to the govt. which oppressed them for years. Whereas the Bahuns are developing their language and culture the rest are losing them. They didn't even trust the Newars to be in any of the high level govt. positions(still don't). Up till about a decade ago they wouldn't even let them open a school for their own language. That's why majority of them can only speak and not write(correct dialect not dewanagari). and have given us tittles like tharu's-Madhishe, sherpa-bhote, newars-jyapu. Now you have the audacity to feel discriminated because of on little name. Bahuns have had the oppertunity(religion) for years now its time to pay.
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| Newar |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 01:50 PM
I agree with you 100%.
About a 10 - 12 years ago they were about to do away with nepal sambat. They wanted to do away with our new years celebration(bhintuna). Majority of Newari kids these days don't even speak Newar, thaks to all the name callings in schools(tata mama).
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| dumdum |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 01:54 PM
Moraa Racist haru.
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 02:11 PM
I didn't understand the gist of the first two articles, but I
get the concerns.
It is interesting to note that even Newar community is feeling
descrimination from Bahuns. I don't know if it is the feeling of
majority of population, but if it is so, then it demonstrates how
fragile unity we are living under. Since acc to a new human
development report, Newar community is highest in the ranking of
economic calibre in Nepal.
I am still under the impression that since our country is mainly
ruled by Bahun-Chhetri-Newar, we are one responsible for listening
to the grievances of Dalit (or provoked in caste system)
community.
Also, there seems to be confusion among a few Newari activists and
mainstream newari population. Those activists who are dead against
Sanskrit language, and argue it is unfavorable to Newari community
are probably not supported by most of the Newars. It is obvious
that Dharmaviru(devout) Newari community is fond of Sanskrit
scriptures, and a lot of old men from the community still read
those scriptures with avid interest and reverence.
Surely, Newari population of KTM is educated and economically
sound. Even if nepal bhaashaa is made the medium of instruction
for them, and English is made official language in Nepal (thus
making Nepali not necessary to read for those who don't want)they
can survive. My only question, however, is whether that is good.
I mean, we just kick our language in favor of foreign language,
isn't it kind of "sautaa ko ris le poi ko naak kaatne" job?
Would love to hear from self-proclaimed "racist" friend.
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| Racist |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 02:38 PM
I certainly do not think that Newars are put in the same level. If you are a newar, you're a jyapu period. I am not talking about economic level, i am talking about discrimination.
I remember they had to go to great lenghts to even get that newari(not orignal but devnagari) newspaper published. The Gov't(bahuns & chetri) did not want it promoted.
I think Marich Man was the 1st newar to reach that level of govt. After how long the country was established ??? I could go on and on ...
|
| sally |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 03:39 PM
Re Racist's comment: "I got a bone to pick with those bahuns feeling discriminated."
I haven't seen anyone on this site writing that Bahuns feel discriminated against AS A GROUP. It's one thing to say (as I have) that there is nothing magical about being Bahun, that it doesn't guarantee anything at all, and that many Bahuns are poor and do, in fact, suffer from discrimination when they are not connected to powerful friends or relatives.
But obviously that's NOT the same as being discriminated against as a group. The fact that the majority of Bahuns are poor, and have little access to power, does not negate the fact that they are comparatively better off than many other groups, and that powerful people in Nepal are heavily Bahun.
In order to discuss this intelligently, though, I think we need to define some terms. There's a difference between DISCRIMINATION, RACISM and BIGOTRY.
RACISM is "any program or practice of racial discrimination, segregation, persecution, and domination, based on racialism" ... "a doctrine or teaching, without scientific support, that claims to find racial differences in character, intelligence, etc., that asserts the superiority of one race over another."
BIGOTRY is "the behavior, attitude, or beliefs of a bigot; intolerance; prejudice." A bigot is "a person who holds blindly and intolerantly to a particular creed, opinion, etc." or "a narrow-minded, prejudiced person."
DISCRIMINATION is "a showing of partiality or prejudice in treatment; specifically, action or policies directed against the welfare of minority groups."
By these definitions (from the New World Dictionary), we can see several things. For one thing, Racist should change his/her posting name to Bigot, unless s/he is a member of a majority group.
Also, it would be silly for anyone to argue that Bahuns or Chhetris (respectively the second- and first-largest population groups) can suffer from the racism of others, or can be discriminated against under the present power makeup in Nepal.
But I don't think anyone has argued that. Biswo and others have simply pointed out some of the many complexities of the situation.
Btw, re Newar's posting:
I think it also would be helpful to distinguish between POLITICAL or ECONOMIC POWER (which Newars--like Bahuns, Chhetris, and probably even Sherpas--can easily be proved to have in contemporary Nepal out of all proportion to their numbers) and CULTURAL HEGEMONY. That's what I think we're really talking about when we discuss the loss of language and so on.
Cultural hegemony is, I think, tragic and diminishing to all people. This may be off the track, but I've often felt that it would be culturally enriching for all kids going to school in KTM to learn Nepalbhasa as part of the curriculum. Another advantage is that, since it's a tonal language, it would probably make it easier in the long run for people who want to learn Chinese (since tonal languages such as Nepalbhasa and Chinese are very difficult to learn as adults for speakers of Indo-European inflected languages such as Nepali, Sanskrit, English, etc.)
Just a thought.
Anyway, I feel strongly that all these things--racism, bigotry, and discrimination--are ugly, destructive, and wrong. These are things that lower us all as human beings.
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| Racist |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 04:06 PM
Sally you lost me...
All three are related. I couldn't figure what you're saying. I am not talking about..... Bahuns deserve all three titles. They are well known for racism, bigotry and discrimination. racist against other ethnic groups, bigots- crying foul when the topic came up(that they are the victims), discriminating against wealthy bahuns and poor bahuns.
Lets say there a govt. position available.
a Bahun & a newar applies for it. Who do you think is going to get the job ??? Why do you think majority of all Newars are in private sector and all Bahuns in the govt. Still its those Bahuns who ask for bribes alll the time.
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| sally |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 05:18 PM
Sorry if I lost you. I'm just pointing out that "bigotry" is prejudice, stereotyping, hatred, unfair generalizations, and so on. "Racism" is an ideology of bigotry practiced by a group in power. There's a difference.
Therefore, you are a Bigot, and not a Racist.
Certainly all three are related. And certainly some--maybe many--Bahuns "deserve all three titles." However, I haven't seen anyone on this board claiming that Bahuns are victims of discrimination or racism AS A GROUP.
Anyway, to address your points. You wrote, "Lets say there a govt. position available. a Bahun & a newar applies for it. Who do you think is going to get the job ???"
Gee, I have no idea. It depends on who does the hiring, who is lobbying for the individual concerned, etc. Let's imagine that Ram Upadhyay and Laxman Shrestha both apply for that job, and Shrestha is an old St X classmate of the department head whereas Upadhyay just rolled in from Jumla and doesn't have anyone to lobby for him. In that case, Shrestha is more likely to get the job.
We could make up a million scenarios. In some Shrestha would get the job, in others Upadhyay would get it.
It's true that bosses tend to hire people they perceive as similar to themselves. Studies have shown this. And yes, that tends to disadvantage minority groups, women, and so on. So I agree with you ... but only UP TO A POINT.
You also wrote, "Why do you think majority of all Newars are in private sector and all Bahuns in the govt."
Actually, I think the majority of both castes are farmers. But for the sake of argument, I'd say that Bahun-Chhetri parents encourage their kids to go into govt service, whereas Newar parents push for private sector. I suspect this has a lot to do with internalized Brahman-Chhetri-Vaisya stereotypes. I've sometimes sat in astonishment as brilliant, successful Newar parents with brilliant, talented kids announced that Newars "aren't very good at academics." That's an example of how racist stereotypes can be internalized by minority groups in spite of all logical evidence to the contrary.
The interesting thing about the real world is that it doesn't fit easily into simplistic stereotypes. For example, you wrote, "Still its those Bahuns who ask for bribes alll the time."
OK. For the sake of argument, let's say you're right. (We'll ignore the fact that everyone here could probably name people of all castes who are known for corruption.) Following your argument, ending corruption in Nepal should be easy. Just ban all Bahuns from govt service.
Do you think that would produce a corruption-free Nepal?
I sure wish it were that easy.
The problem is that DESPISING someone for their caste is as much a product of the caste system as FAVORING someone for their caste. I'm sorry you're a supporter of a caste-based ideology (albeit in somewhat altered form). But I'm glad you're at least open about it.
|
| Nepali |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 05:37 PM
I think racist should just shut up and try to excel without putting another group down. You are a pathetic loser by saying that "now bahun should pay up." What the hell are you trying to prove. Why don't you go back to Nepal and slain all bahuns and chettris. I am sure you are capable of doing that coz ur hatred astounds me. Again I feel for you deeply. Balcks were discriminated in the USA 50 years ago. Now do you see them go talk about how whites should suffer? You disgusting loser. I have seen guys who are both bahun and newars in Boston. They are best of friends. So are you trying to cause turmoil against all bahuns, newars and chetris? And please don't include Sherpas into your group. I am a bhote and we don't consider bhote to be a bad word. Jaypu is also a group of people in Nepal. WHy do you consider jaypu to be a bad word? It is the same thing as baun baje or bahuni. I see too much hatred in you so I know you won't understand what I;m trying to say and that is only because you are in a rut.
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| keta |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 05:39 PM
Marich maan..........and what did he do? He st ripped Nepali people of all their money. Do you know how rich he is? All politicans are same.
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| Bapu |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 06:27 PM
'I think Marich Man was the 1st newar to reach that level of govt. After how long the country was established ??? I could go on and on …'
What about Gurung, Magar and Rai PM? What percent of population is newar? Five? I think Newars are by far the most well (proportionately) represneted ethnic group if you combine their strength in bureaucracy, politics, ecomomic life, etc. Docs, engineers, just look around. They should stop creeping.
Newaars, understandably, feel threatened as a class.
Marwaris are replacing them as top business class. bahuns are definitely the political leaders (Koirala Baje, Bhattarai Baje, Madhav baje, Oli Baje, even Maoist Bajes), and also excel in Lok Sewa exams. No wonder most sachibs are Bahuns. Chettris/Thakuris as politically well represented and they have their military fiefdom. And the royalties are chhetris.
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| sally |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 07:15 PM
In case anyone wants something more concrete, here's the statistical data on Nepali ethnic groups. All things being equal, I suppose govt power, corporate power, engineering and medical degrees, Nepali students at US universities, and so on would naturally end up falling roughly along these percentages. If it doesn't ... well, then, it should make people think, right?
(Notice I did NOT say that it should make people blame each other or go ballistic about caste!!!)
This is from "Nepal District Profile," ed. Hari Bhakta Sharma and Sisir Vaidya, National Research Associates, Nepal, 1997 edition.
Major population groups, by percentage (rounded off):
Chetri: 16 percent
Pahari Brahmin: 12.3
Magar: 7.2
Tharu: 6.4
Newar: 5.5
Tamang: 5.2
Yadav, Ahir: 4
Muslim: 3.5
Rai: 2.8
Gurung: 2.4
Damai: 2
Thakuri: 1.6
Limbu: 1.6
Sarki: 1.5
Sherpa: 0.6
|
| GR Bhattarai |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 07:15 PM
Girija, Joshi, MA Alam, Bhim Rawal, Tirtha Lal, DB Lama, Marich Man, Surya Bahadur, Sere Dhanusha etc. are few of the names to quote who were involved in corruption and pushed our country in the darkness. What would you see in their castes and race? Who is behind the race?
My thinking is that, it is all personal greed, relation with people in power, and of course, political ideology. I have seen many example where a criminal is saved by politicians because that 'dada' "Chunabma kam aunchha". A person in power is likely to have relation with their own caste people who take advantage of his/her power. (How many times did Girija say he would resign? What stopped him from doing so?)
If you want to know how a Bahun would react on those earlier comments, I am a bahun and I am not offended by none of the earlier comments. I was neither offended when I escaped a physical attack just being born Bahun (Naak Chucche) while travelling through a place in Nepal (1994). Thanks to my friend from the same community (Nak Thepche) who saved me from those people. Had they been educated and given more exposure and opportunity they would have never come out in that way. Their leaders, instead of looking for ways to improve the level of education, social and economic status of people, filled hatre in them against the so called upper caste. What would you say if two persons fight against each other, who are both working as a porter carrying 180 pounds on their back from Chatara to Bhojpur five times a month? So, the main step ahead is to educate them and uplift their economic conditions at par with other communities. Otherwise, the same feeling will occupy their minds again and again fueling their anger and hatred.
Racist, do you agree to my points?
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 07:52 PM
Racistji:
>I certainly do not think that Newars are put in the same level. >If you are a newar, you're a jyapu period. I am not talking about
>economic level, i am talking about discrimination.
Jyapus, if I understand correctly, are the farmers and relatively
lower caste in Newar. Jyapus are victim of internal caste
descrimination system within Newar community. As someone who
speaks for whole Newari community, you should have talked about
relationship between Bahuns and Newars.
In Chitwan, where inter-caste relationship is less complicated(as
is a nature of all immigrant-inhabited places like USA), a few
people from Newar community address bahuns as "Kaathaa". Tharus
address Bahuns and others as "Pahaadiyaa". We take them as just
another way of addressing people. We neither feel descrimination
nor offense in such addresses.
As for descrimination, I don't know if anybody goes to the shop
of a Bahun,and not to the shop of Newar, because he is Bahun. I
haven't seen any shred of such descrimination in any sector.
Please give me any example of such descrimination if you know
about them.
Almost-half of the students who got scholarship from ministry of
education in 2051 were Newars.PM was Girija, Education minister
was Govinda Raj Joshi at that time...
We are all free to check such lists.
>I remember they had to go to great lenghts to even get that
> newari(not orignal but devnagari) newspaper published. The
>Gov't(bahuns & chetri) did not want it promoted.
AS for promotion of literature, Ranas didn't want any kind of
publication until 2007 in any language.(Of course, other than
religious scriptures etc.) Bahuns are not supposed to answer for
any act of Ranas, nor are they supposed to take responsibility of
those people.
After 2007, Nepali literature was enriched by many Newar writers.
Writers like Sidhdhi Charan Shrestha, Rhidaya Chandra Singha
Pradhan, Gobinda Malla etc are considered as good as any other
Bahun/Chetri writers. They chose to write in Nepali. Sharada was
published by Newar editor. My point was: Newars were a force in
driving Nepali literature forward at the time. The first lady's
magazine was published by Sahana/Sadhana Pradhan(?) around 2010.
They didn't do it with government assistance. They did it because
they loved Nepali language as their own.
Now, as the situation is changing, Newari publications are being
published. Newar community themselves should work for publishing
those magazines. Here we are talking about stopping government
funding of even Gorkhapatra, and in the same time, we can't talk
of funding any other magazines.also, a tough world is ahead for
those ventures, because since other caste generally doesn't
understand Newari language, they are not likely to buy the
publications.
We must be rational. I don't think there is anything Bahun
Community is blocking in a preplanned, and organized way. So,
Racistji, we don't have to be racist(bigot,actually) in such
things.Also, I don't think most of the people in Newar community
agree with your argument either.Newar community is one of the
most prosperous, tolerant, friendly and philanthropist communities
in Nepal. I have befriended a lot of Newars from Mechi-Mahakali,
and though they lament that the Nepal Bhasa is no longer popular
among Newari kids, they don't point to Bahuns as being responsible
for that.
>I think Marich Man was the 1st newar to reach that level of govt.
>After how long the country was
>established ??? I could go on and on ...
We all cheered for Ganesh Man Singha. We told he was our
Sarbamanya Neta after 2046. He was offered Premiership , which
he graciously declined.
Among six fouding members of Communist Party of Nepal, Motidevi
Narabahadur Karmacharya, Pushpa Lal Pradhan were Newar. (One was
Indian, and I don't remember rest two) Tulsi Lal Amatya, Bishnu
Bahadur Manandhar etc were all Newars. Most of the Bahun leaders
in UML are married to Newari community. (Jhalanath Khanal, Lila
Mani Pokharel, Manamohan Adhikari..) This all is proof that Newari
community is not considered to be inferior by most of the Bahuns
including the politicans.
The list goes on..
|
| Tistung-Palung |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 09:10 PM
The debate of social discrimination and racism is simply USELESS! Even the most civilized nations in the world seem to have racial problems. There is only one solution - forget what Bahuns have done to Newars and what Newars have done to Bhoteys. Take a QUANTUM LEAP to brotherhood and equality of races. If there is a discrimination, there should be only one - discrimination of people who are educated, yet live in a biased world and don't help in eliminating useless social differences.
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| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 09:18 PM
Hi all,
This is to everyone who just love to go on and on, on racism in Nepal and feel that they are DISCRIMINATED against.
First to Racist daju/dai/didi/bahini/bhai JYU, before you go on blaming bahuns for being racist, look around your Newar community first. I challenged this to everyone on my last posting on racism that, if someone can come up and say hey, there's absolutely no discrimination within my group, then I'll admit my intellectual defeat. I am repeating the same thing.
Its very easy to label us (bahuns) as the most racist of all the ethnic groups, but look at your own group first and see how much your group emphasizes equality. I haven't seen many Upper Class Newars (shrestha, pradhan etc) marrying Shalmi, although they both are NEWARS.
So, look around your own community before you post anything in here, so that a healthy discussion can take place. Healthy in a sense that we talk about this issue without blaming one group for the condition of Nepal.
"sabai-lai chetana bhaya"-- Prithvi Narayan Shah.
Trailokya
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| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 09:22 PM
This is again for our Racist dai/bhai/didi/bahini JYU,
Just a correction on your post:
The script in which Newari is written is called Ranjana Script (ranjana lipi).
Trailokya
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| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 09:27 PM
Hi all,
This is again to Racist dai/bhai/didi/bahini JYU-
In your third post you wrote:
Bahuns take bribes
Now look at the recent RNAC LAUDA DEAL, who was the Managing director of the national flag carrier?
A Bahun
B Chetri
C Newar
D None of the above
The answer, my fried, is the managing director of RNAC when the whole thing happened was, a Newar. Now, you may say, well, that's corruption, not bribery.. but, hey, bribery falls under Corruption, doesn't it?
Trailokya
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| Newajhee |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 09:37 PM
Why are all the bahuns getting so defensive all of a sudden?
|
| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 09:39 PM
Hi all,
This one is for Sally didi/bahini JYU,
I agree with most of your points, however, I don't with teaching Newari to every kid in Kathmandu Valley.
And this is why:
1-Nepal is not only bahuns and newars. Nepal is "char-barna-chattis-jaat" and people of almost every ethnic group are now residing in Valley. So, it would be, in fact, injustice to the kids of those groups, who don't speak newari at home. Don't they have rights to study in their own mother tounge? If yes, then why not teach classes in Sherpa, Tamang, maithali, Bhojpuri, Awadhi, Limbu etc.?
2- Nepal needs unity in diversity, and the language is a wonderful connector. Considering the ethnic diversity of Nepal, language is the only thing that connects people from Mechi to Mahakali, which is helping in promoting Nepali nationalism. And the importance of Nationalism cannot be undermined in a third world developing country like Nepal, because, Nationalism promotes the feeling of shared interests. This makes people actually work together for a bettter Nepal.
Sure, I agree with the idea of language School or have schools on weekends to teach whatever language that people want to promote/learn. But this should be optional, not mandatory.
Trailokya
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| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 09:40 PM
>Why are all the bahuns getting so defensive
>all of a sudden?
|
| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 09:40 PM
>Why are all the bahuns getting so defensive
>all of a sudden?
|
| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 09:40 PM
>Why are all the bahuns getting so defensive
>all of a sudden?
|
| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 09:43 PM
>Why are all the bahuns getting so defensive
>all of a sudden?
Hi Newajhee,
The answer to your question is:
When some of you Newar folks, team up to bash the whole bahun community, then, we bahuns too have our rights to defend our group. We are as proud as you of our heritage.
I hope this answer will satisfy you (or encite you to post more communal stuff.)
Trailokya Bahun
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| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 09:46 PM
hi all,
sorry for the multiple posting of the same message.
Trailokya
|
| suman pradhan |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 11:24 PM
I agree with many of Biswo's views, and I think he has the sanest arguments on this red hot topic.
I am a newar myself but I cannot digest the vituperative attacks by Racist on the bahun-chhettri community. I have never in my life felt any discrimination from the other community. Many of my freinds are bahuns and chhettris and sherpas and madhises and, of course newars too, and I enjoy thier company just as much. Maybe I've been lucky in my companionship.
Now coming back to the debate going on here, I just can't understand why you guys, presumably educated all of you, have to go at each other's throats. Why can't you all leave behind your prejuidices in Nepal and get along with whatever you are doing over there in Boston?
There are injustices everywhere, and Nepal is no exception. Certainly, discrimination exists here, and not just by bahuns on newars (it can be the other around too) but by newars on newars, by bahuns on bahnuns, by chhettris on chettris (thakuri vs chhettri)etc etc. But if any group has the right to protest this discrimination, then I think it is the dalits and madhises who should be protesting the loudest. they have been at the receiving end for far too long.
There is also hypocrisy here. While we may cry foul when we are discriminated against, we do not hesitate to discriminate against others at the slightest chance. I am talking of the mentality of the supposed pahadiya community (and that includes all bahun, chhettri and newars) when it comes to dealing with madhises. I come from Birgunj, and I understand this mentality all too well.
But anyway, let the debate continue. At least it helps to get the venom out of the system.
cheers
suman
|
| Reetu |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 11:26 PM
hi everyone,
so far concern, personally, to me, i am a nepali at first then my ethnicity. whatever my ethnicity i don't care except humanity and its proper definition in practical life.
when i was in nepal in high school and college, we all have been compelled to read nepali, you may say you had a school at the time of "panchayet". even "panchayet" or democracy all the people in nepal have been still compelled to do whatever the ruling class likes.
let me tell you a story, first, english is not our first language and we, probably most of us, have been facing some sort of difficulties at speaking as well as writing. the story begins with a dictation class in nepali. we had a nepali teacher named "lala nath subedi" (i don't like him), bahun ta ra "nake shore", most of us do not understand what he speaks because of "nake shore". he spelled the dictation as in nepali "shruti sam shab da haroo" means "dictation", we, most of the students except handful students, wrote "surti sam shab da haroo" means "tobacco sam shab da haroo", understand?. it happened because of we were not familiar with the "sanskrit shab da haroo" then we got zero on the test. what happen, it is because of not mother language. we had not been considered on that. there was not justification of number of students made same mistake. it was not just. it was happen at grade 10th and same thing happened when i was doing intermediate(I.A), there was a question on the final test, "shudhi gari lekha", there was a "ashudhi gari lekhe ko" as "katu dekhai mathi ishor le gahana pahire ko hunchha" i did not see any "ashudhi" on it. i did correct whereas i knew but it was not correct. then i talk to one of my friend "bahun" he did correct because he knew "sanskrit". he wrote as " katti dekhi mathi ishore le gahana lagaye ko hunchha". it was right because " katu ra katti ma pharak chha" katu means katu(underware), katti means "naito". i got zero on it. so, what the hell, language mekes us backward. how do you justify it is just in a democratic country? we want democracy means hell this discimination asking all the "sanskrit" only keeping bahun's majority on top. i am not weak in nepali. i never get below 60 in nepali. i am still proud of doing that. i challenge you "bahuns and chetri", you guys are damn leaning other language. how do you feel you smart enough on every field? you do nothing for your country and your society, just vanish in "banarash" at the time of "rana" and this time "america".
so, we are democratic and schools(govt. schools) are runing with autocraticy. democratic government should give fund for the other ethnic groups in order to teach their valuable language. regarding this posting, if someone gets hurt, i don't care. it is an open space for discussion. come on write me reply...
Reetu...
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| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 09-Jul-01 11:57 PM
First of all, thanks to Mr Suman Pradhanji for taking time off his busy schedule to post an interesting and thought provoking message
in here.
I agree with many of his points. Discrimination in nepal cannot be limited to Bahuns vs. Newars/other ethnic groups. The meaning of the word D-I-S-C-R-I-M-I-N-A-T-I-O-N is much broader when it comes down to nepali society. Just as Biswoji, Sumanji's arguments are hard to contradict.
Here's an example from my own Bahun community: There are two types of bahuns. One is called KUMAI and the otehr are called UPADHYAYA. Now the interesting fact: The marriages between these two groups are very rare, just as Shresthas and Pradhans marrying Shalmis.
Now, to Reetuji,
Your arguments do not make any sense whatsoever. Maybe its just that I did not understand what you were trying to say. My angreji, isn't that good , so I have a hard time understanding when people write very complex sentences.
However, I have some comments to make.
Not every bahun in Nepal knows sanskrit, I did not and I am sure I am not alone. So, to say that, bahuns get higher marks in Nepali, just because of their Sanskrit background is simply not TRUE.
Plus, I found you labelling your teacher as someone with "nake swor" does not fit anywhere in the discussion we are having. Sorry, we aren't talking about how somebody's voice sounds!
Now, getting to other arguments you have:
1-Bahuns vanished in Banaras during the Rana regime, and are now vanishing in America in the year 2001.
--What sort of statement is this? Would you mind corroborating on this, please?
Unless you have access to some secret data--which I doubt highly--to prove this, I honestly suggest you to refrain from making statemests like this. As far as I know, its not only Bahuns who are vanishing in the US, its everyone--newars/rais/limbus/chettris/satar/tharu/gurung etc too disappear in America. I think ghosts eat them:-)
Now, I admit, Nepal is of everyone, not only of Bahuns. But again, Nepali is of everyone, not only of Bahuns. I would be glad to learn Newari/maithali/bhojpuri etc. if that becomes our National language tomorrow.
Reetuji, I am not at all offended/hurt by your posting. Please post more to inform, entertain and educate us, in your own Politically (In)correct way.
Way to Go, Reetu!
Trailokya
|
| bapu |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 12:04 AM
ritu:
Here's my humble request to you. Try to keep your stories short and concise. They aren't always interesting.
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| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 12:18 AM
Reetu Wrote...
i am not weak in nepali. i never get below 60 in nepali. i am still proud of doing that.
This is a follow up message to Reetuji.
Reetuji, i only got 30s and 40s (maximum) in Nepali. My SLC nepali score was 39. So, you are better than many of us bahun kids who, in your opinion, know SANSKRIT. Plus, I don't see how they discriminate against Bahuns vs Non bahuns in tests like SLC and IA. As fara s I know, stundets don't need to write their names on the answer sheet. And I don't think any examiner in nepal is smart enough to know the ethnicity of students by reading their answers.
If I go by Reetuji's argument, then I would have gotten 60+ because I am a Bahun, but I did not. So, what should I do?
(does anyone here know a good lawyer in nepal, so that i can sue my nepali test examiner for giving a bahun only 39 on SLC?)
"i challenge you "bahuns and chetri", you guys are damn leaning other language. how do you feel you smart enough on every field?"
(yo bhaneko k ho?)
As far as I know, nobody here claims to be smart on every field. We all have our filed of especiality and we generally tend to comment on those only.
Trailokya
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 01:43 AM
Thanks Sumanji for coming here, and supporting my views. My answer
to the question Sumanji raised on the usefulness of this debate
itself is that I believe discussions like this help to make things
clear among us. After all, there are a few people who think the
way 'racist'ji is thinking.It is ecuated people who should address
such concern with reasons.
When we talk about Nepali heritage,we all mention : the temples of
KTM, Buddha and his preachings,Sita and a few other things. The
temples of KTM are mainly made in prosperous Malla dynasty. But
we all are proud of that. Bahuns are imbibing in Newari culture,
and most favorite food of not only Bahuns , but most of the
Nepalese is Momo. Nepali cuisine cannot be complete without
mentioning Newari cuisine of different varieties. A racist
community doesn't adopt other people's culture with respect. So,
Madhise Budhdha and Sita, and Newari temples would be neglected,
if rest of us were so badly racist. I am very sure that the
carelessness and negligence of other heritages is because of
our poveryt, not hatred and racism. I think we must tell it loud
and clear to ALL aberrant youths who thinks their community is
targetted for bias.
I also support Sally in her contention that Nepal Bhashaa schools
and other minority schools be established everywhere in Nepal.
Also, I believe that despite the clamor for Nepal Bhashaa schools,
there will not be a lot of students attending such schools even
in KTM. Sumanji and I can testify that such schools have no scope
at all outside of KTM because the new Newari generation is very
much comfortable with Nepali Bhaashaa already. Whether we like
it or not, it is because we share the power,resource and
prosperity of Nepal commonly( How come all my classmates tell me
that they understand but can't speak Newaari Bhaashaa?) I am not
happy at such extinction of language, but I am merely stating the
fact.
In China, Tibetans(pop.:4 million) and Uighur(pop:more than 100
millions) and other minority groups takes class in their own
languages until highschool. But see around my friends in Boston
and California, and try to find Tibetan or Uighur students in
the mass of Chinese students around you, and you will be sorely
disappointed. It is because they can't excel in Universities that
offer education in Chinese language, despite government of China's
piggybacking those minorities, and giving them preferences in
universities(Also offering extra hours of teaching and special
professors in school). The reason: most of the physics(or other
science and engg )books are not found in Tibetan or Uighur
language. That same problem can be faced by our minority students.
I support people who push for the preservation of their culture.
As a Nepali, I am equally proud of cultures of all communites,be
it Tijaura dance of Tharus, or Chhath of our Madhise community, or
Lhosar of Gurung community. I ,however, expect people to be little
more logical when asking for restructuring of our present system.
|
| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 02:04 AM
Hi all,
Thanks biswoji for bringing in the Chinese example. I agree. Things are hard for Tibetans, but the good news is, now they are taught Chinese in Shcools along side Tibetan, so that those Tibetan Kids can go to schools in China, and learn productive things to change the fce of Tibet.
But to Sally's idea of teaching Newari to every kid in the valley, won't work out well for the reasons I posted in my previous message because Kathmandu belongs to all of us, not only to bahuns/chetris and newars but to every one.
Trailokya
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 02:26 AM
Dear Trailokyaji:
I think Kathmandu can have private schools that teach in Nepal
Bhaashaa.Government can pool in whatever resources it has to
support such private establishment.(because it is obliged.)
I don't see why it should be problem. Tests in SLC can be easily
translated to Nepal Bhaashaa. Teachers are available to check
such questions, I am sure. It is not costly venture, and
government can afford that, rather than a disgruntled mass of
a particular community.In SLC, we mainly test student's basic
mathematical,scientific and linguistic skill, not the medium in
which they express that skill.If a student can express his
knowledge in his language, but not in Nepali, he can't be said
a dumb(or a less intelligent).
I was touched by story of a friend of mine, working as a textile
engineer in Shanghai now. He is Maharjan (I think his family
migrated from Lalitpur's village to KTM). He told me how he once
sufferred because he couldn't speak very well Nepali when he
just enrolled to school. He went to a school where children
were asked not to speak in Newari(teacher was Newar,though).But
he couldn't speak Nepali spontaneously then. He had to first
think a sentence, and only then he could speak. So, he didn't have
a lot of confidence, and preferred to remain silent in class. He
became center of student's ridicule when he once pissed in his
class,because he wasn't confident enough to ask for going to
restroom.
I believe that life and dignity of a child is as important as that
of the adults one.Also,their comfort should be our priority.We
shouldn't impose draconian rule to these kids in the name of
national unity. We should take care of them as much as possible.
|
| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 03:07 AM
Biswo ji,
But, what about other language schools then? Why not have schools teach in at elast 15 different languages, because, newari is not spoken by everyone in kathmandu.
Plus, forcing language upon kids will have an adverse effect in the future. imagine someone from Mechi meeting someone from mahakali.. how will they communicate? By sign language or by speaking angreji?
Trailokya
|
| Darjeelingey(ni) |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 08:15 AM
Tistung Palung:
I absolutely agree with you!!!
"If there is a discrimination, there should be only one - discrimination of people who are educated, yet live in a biased world and don't help in eliminating useless social differences. "
My bit here is: If you cannot practice what you preach then there is no use in beating your drum nor in trying to make a point here. And PLEASE, when you read this posting - try your very best NOT to label me as another "batho" darjeelingey!! I am BOTH of those but I can also see a whole bunch of more than batho people here!
A little something I will always remember my father saying to me - Little drops of water, little drops of sand, makes a mighty ocean and a pleasant land.
|
| Tistung Palung |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 09:38 AM
Darjelingey, Suman Pradhan et al:
It's good to know that there are still people like you who think positively about race diversity. REST OF YOU, LEARN FROM WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY! If there are more people like you, our society will thrive with richness of cultural variations induced by racial diversity. Each race has its own culture and history. If we can put them all together, we don't have to refer to the US as the only melting pot in the world. Nepal, in its own space, is itself a melting pot of wonderful and diversified cultures and races.
May all races in Nepal coexist in harmony,
T-P
|
| sally |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 10:13 AM
Thanks, TP. I think most people in this thread have actually been quite positive and supportive of ethnic diversity, while recognizing the inevitable difficulties that it brings.
To clarify something re languages, my thought has been simply that enrichment courses in other languages (such as Nepalbhasa in the Valley) could be useful for inter-community communication and the preservation and appreciation of a heritage that all Nepalis take pride in nowadays.
I know there are difficulties with this. I've hashed it out in lots of living-room conversations, and recognize there are many practical reasons why it might be unworkable, undesirable, or a bad precedent. Also, I'm not too keen on making any language, except for Nepali and English, a required course. (That includes Sanskrit, although I know there are lots of arguments for its usefulness to all Nepalis--just as there are arguments for the usefulness of Latin to English speakers.)
However, I do tend to feel that the more people in a multiethnic society know about each other's cultures, the better.
I also think Biswo's idea of writing in other languages on the SLC is interesting. It seems to me that anything that equalizes chances on the SLC is a good thing–and if writing essay answers in another language will do that, great. As it stands now, it's pretty clear that some groups, as a rule, have a better command of Nepali than others. And that probably tends to advantage them on the SLC. That's not because of some plot or conspiracy; it's just one of the difficulties of a multi-ethnic, multi-lingual society with unevenly distributed educational resources.
To be frank, I'm a bit out of my depth on this subject, though ... I think other people would have better insights than myself :-)
|
| Racist |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 10:17 AM
Lets not beat around the bush
Since the shah(hindu) dynasty came along....
The bahuns have flourished.
Up untill a decade ago(before demoquacy) all the other ethnic groups were oppressed. Govt(bahuns & chetri) did not want to promote any ethnic group. Everything was Nepali. Its like telling Tibetans you're chinese. Every group has a heritage, we would like to preserve them. They totally screwd the educational system when they brought in the Naya Sikcha. Some of you are saying that we should move on. Its like telling the Jews to forget about the Holocast.
|
| San |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 10:49 AM
Hi Racist,
I see that you are not satisfied with what happened in the past. Yes, major inequalities exist in our society. The gap between the rich and the poor is very big. Some people might argue that it's the same everywhere - the rich are very rich and the poor are very poor. BUT, the main difference between other countries and Nepal is that in Nepal, there are not too many opportunities for an individual to try to diminish that gap. In a country like US, you can be born in the ghetto and progress to hollywood or even the US senate. But in Nepal, if you are born in the ghetto, chances are, that you're gonna be there all your life. It's all because of nepotism that exists in Nepal. You need to know people to get anything done, or to advance your career.
In addition, because of lack of opportunities, whenever someone gets to a public position, they are open to corruption because, noone knows how long they are gonna be in that position. I couldn't believe when I heard that sometimes you have to bribe the clerk at the Electricity Corp to pay your bills (so that they don't cut your electricity line for not paying the bill). The main reason for all the corruption is poverty and lack of opportunities which go hand in hand... and the main reason for the poverty and lack of opportunities is the rampant corruption and in equality.
It's gonna be hard to end this cycle until financially stable people run the LAW.
How do you propose that we deal with the situation? How can we influence things so that equality is promoted? so that there are more opportunities and equality in Nepal?
Just want to share with you something I read nearly a decade ago, and I still remember. ....
...There are things you can influence and things you cannot. It's useless to worry or be concerned about things that you cannot influence, it's not gonna help you in any way because it's not gonna change... But, for the things that you can influence, you can act now and make a positive influence so that you don't need to worry about it...
What we should do instead of complaining is proactively try to figure out what's gonna solve the problem. If there's no solution, then there's no point complaining - just try to make the best out of your life. If there is a solution, let's work together to make this world a better place.
|
| keta |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 04:48 PM
Why are we thanking "Sumanji"? Why don't you thank someone else who also backed you. I understand sumanji might hold some prestigious job 'here in the USA', but I don't think its fair to just thank him Trailokya ji. BTw, I love your sense of humor.
|
| Tistung-Palung |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 07:58 PM
Well, the thank you is not only for Sumanji. I have added 'et al' for everyone who have given positive comments on racial diversity. I wanted to emphasize Sumanji simply for the reason that he being a Newar did not think that Newars are being discriminated. People here are complaining because they have not really mingled with Bahuns and Chhetris, or B/Cs with Newars. Try to mingle with each other and see how wonderful each of us are. There will be differences, but that's human nature. Even if we were of the same race, we would segragate ourselves with what we have and what we don't. Look at the Ranas who classified themselves as A, B and Cs. Even look at Newars who have classified Jyapus are a lower class. Since we all are educated, let's be practical and rid off race differences. We are not what race we are born to. We are what we make of ourselves - people of race-tolerance and race-equality.
|
| suman pradhan |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 10:25 PM
Just to clear some misconceptions, Keta, I do not hold any prestigious job in the US. I am working in good old Nepal, though I have done short stints in journalism at the Philadelphia Inquirer in the US and in the UN HQ, both under fellowships.
Now back to the debate. Just the amount of postings on this subject generated by Racist underscores what many in Nepal prefer not to discuss - that the problems of ethnicity and multi-culturalism are deep rooted, despite what our text books and leaders say.
Anyway, I agree with TP that one way to deal with it would be to mingle with the other community. If you stick it out with your own community, then chances are that you will always think and act like your own people and never know of the wonders of the other group and individuals who are different from you. In Kathmandu all too often, Newars from the old part of town mostly spend their entire lives with freinds from the same bahals and chowks, which just reinforces thier prejuidices against the other community. So is the case with the other ethnic groups who prefer to remain amongst themselves.
About the language issue, to borrow the Clinton campaingn's famous phrase, "it's the economy, stupid." Being fluent in Nepali opens economic opportunities in Nepal, just as having a good command of English opens the doors of opportunities in the wider world. Yes, preserve the ethnic culture and language by all means, but get out there and interact with the world if you want to grow.
Some social scientist once told me that one effect method to address ethnic tensions would be to encourage inter-community marriages. Why should Newars always marry newars, bahuns only bahuns, chhettris only chhettris, sherpas only sherpas, lamas onl lamas, chaurasias only chaurasias? Inter-community marriages will certainly help social integration. It helps to widen the gene pool of the country. I agree with him.
Another subject I would like to raise here is that, in my stint in the US, I saw that many Nepalis preferred to remain with other Nepalis. They hardly interacted with teh whites, blacks and hispanics. Sure, teh Indians and Chinese before us did the same. If you are going to stay in the US building a small Nepal, then what's the point in living there and not in the real Nepal? And this is not just a trait of the Nepali expats. As I mentioned, Indians, Chinese, Vietnamese, and almost every other community you can think of, suffer from the same mentality. The New York Times magazine did an article on this trend back in October 1997 and concluded that New York, despite its multi-ethnicity and multi-culturalism, is not a "melting pot." Food for thought.
cheers
suman
>Why are we thanking "Sumanji"? Why don't
>you thank someone else who also backed you.
>I understand sumanji might hold some
>prestigious job 'here in the USA', but I don'
>t think its fair to just thank him Trailokya
>ji. BTw, I love your sense of humor.
|
| Tistung-Palung |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 11:04 PM
Suman Pradhan brings up a couple of important issues. (Note to self: by this time, people are already thinking TP is a friend of Suman, but sorry keta and racist, I am only supporting his ideas here.) Further to Suman's comments...
Inter-racial marriages: An interesting observation I made during a recent visit to Nepal was people have started to allow inter-racial arranged marriages. It will take some time for our society to understand inter-racial relations created by modern inter-racial marriages. Contrary to that, I have come across some Nepalese who have lived in the US for a while, broadened their mind with 'American-ism', yet detest inter-racial marriages. They would not mind marrying whites (blacks are no good), but if they are bahuns, they need a bahun spouse, if they are chhetris they need chhetris, if they are newars they need newars and likewise. This certainly does not apply for all, but if you look around carefully, it shows.
Your peers: Even outside of Nepal (in India and the US), I have observed newars hang out mostly with newars, bahuns with bahuns and likewise. I have also seen people hang out with other ethnic groups to such an extent that they tend to forget they are actually from Nepal.
So, there is a line to be drawn in the sand by the able and educated minds. This discussion certainly helps.
TP
|
| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 11-Jul-01 12:51 AM
To keta dai/bhai JYU,
I thanked Suman ji because he is a journalist and has written some interesting thought provoking articles.
Trailokya
|
| Darjeelingey(ni) |
Posted
on 11-Jul-01 08:45 AM
Suman, You have touched upon a subject that I, too, have had difficulty digesting! Nepalese, Chinese etc etc are often seeing mingling among just their kind which is rather amusing. Its almost like an unspoken law and anyone who does mingle with the "outside" (ironic) crowd is seen as trying to become more kuirey etc.
If I do (and I do) mingle around, I get written off as "ehh tyo ta darjeeling ko ho alik arkai huncha"!!!
Well, well, how am I arkai? Maybe I am!! I'm trying to get out of this vicious circle of racism etc.
If I had wanted to be bogged down by our social issues I would have rather stayed back home. I'm sure many of you know that we are judged (here in the US as well) by our last names, our fathers' names, our jobs etc etc etc. It is because I wanted to have a broader view of the world and of life that I opted to live my life abroad which is not without consequences.
Well, on another note - do you think its not racist that I get tagged as a darjeeling ko manchey??? I lived in Nepal for many years and worked there and everytime I said something different, I was told to my face by my many educated friends that it was because I was from Darj :). What are your thoughts on this now that many of you could be in the same position that I was (ie. adopted a different country or living in another country for a couple of years).
|
| Tistung-Palung |
Posted
on 11-Jul-01 10:08 AM
People live up to their stereotypes. We can change that.
|
| ooray |
Posted
on 11-Jul-01 12:53 PM
Darjeelingey,
you bring out a valid point. why is it that nepalis, even after coming to the US, believe that they have to hang out with their own kind? yes chinese do it, so do indians, koreans, vietnamese etc. but if you look around you will see a lot of these people also interact with other ethnic groups. walk around and you will see that there is so much out there. so many different groups of people whose culture is very interesting and some very similar to ours. yes i do have nepali friends here, but guess what i'm a newar and two of my very good friends that i made here in the US are a bahun and chettri( well that's what he calls himself, i don't know, is there a chettri sapkota? )
anyhow, my point being, if you choose to you can get along with any race, ethnicity, in or outside Nepal!
|
| Naresh Pun Magar |
Posted
on 11-Jul-01 01:10 PM
It was nice to go through each an every comments made on this hot topic.Despite being a magar I never knew that Magars are the third highest population of Nepal after Chettris and Bahuns (sally, thanks for the population percentage ).In Any country rascism is felt by minority from majority of the population .we are third largest population ,but only first and second highest are labelled as RASCIST here.Is it because they are better educated,clever and hold almost all the topmost positions ?I will not be surprised if we will be called RASCISTS when we magars get good education and start holding top posts in Nepal .
GR bhattarai is very true to say that education is the major reason why thepche naaks(mongolians)are not being able to hold top post in Nepal.
Even in America ,if you ask americans whether rascism exists,whites will say No but blacks will always say YES because they are monority.Rascists act exists everywhere around the globe ,its something that we dont want to happen ....but it happens .In Hongkong ,Indians ,pakistanis ,phillipinas ,we nepalese etc make only two percent of the total population and we call Chinese a RASCIST,because we are ethnic monority.
I think Rascism is a deadly disease ,and Nepal should avoid it especially when its the poorest country in the world .
Naresh
Hongkong
|
| Darjeelingey(ni) |
Posted
on 11-Jul-01 05:49 PM
Tistung-Palung, People live up to their stereotypes?? You mean to say you are going to First stereotype then work on being less-discriminatory? Isn't that kind of backwards?
|
