| Username |
Post |
| Gokul |
Posted
on 09-Oct-03 10:43 AM
While this thread is inspired by the discussion of "Aishyos, Gayishyos" issues in another thread ("Kathmandu a decade later"), I believe it still deserves a separate thread and here it goes.
Using the perspective of signalling economics, I believe people speak the "Aishyos, Gayishyos" language to signal others that they belong to an elite class. This action results in the immediate gratification to the speaker by providing him or her a sense of "perceived superiority". This is also a cost-free way of establishing a "brand name".
Since there is no obvious cost associated with the usage of such language, the benefit of speaking such language always exceeds its cost and it is logical to assume we will see increase in the number people speaking such language. If there is no cost, then why does not everybody speak this language? The answer is that although there is no monetary cost, there can be other hidden costs or reasons such as
(a) Fear of alienation: By giving the explicit signal, the subject must be prepared to jump to the higher class and thus fear the alienation from his current class.
(b) Fear of uncertainty: The fear of uncertainty is an archetype to the human psychology. There is no certainty that speaking such a language alone would guarantee the acceptance from the already established elite class.
(c) Lack of differentiation: If everybody uses the free "signalling" technique, then in the long run it would not be a signal at all. The key to the successful signalling lies in its power of differentiation.
(d) Supra-signalling: By not using the free "signal", the subject may be signalling others that he or she has some real assets/qualities/talents and hence does not need the freebies. This is the reason why many elite (culturally and economically) families don't use this free signal.
There can be many more reasons and we can explore them if we want. However, I must conclude that:
The levels of hierarchy in spoken languages indicate the cultural and economic flux of the society and in the long run when both are in equilibrium, the number of such levels tends to zero.
ALL IN JEST
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| forget-me-not |
Posted
on 09-Oct-03 10:54 AM
Gakulji hajur le thikai bhanseyo..I agree with you..Hajur lekhdai garseyo...hami paddai garuna ni..
Hjaur yesto hoisinchha bhanne thaha thiyena ni hajur..
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| Kiddo |
Posted
on 09-Oct-03 12:10 PM
Any discussion of this kind is worthless. You ask me why? Because people don't come here to analyze the situation. They come to justify the reasoning behind the principal they are adhering to, without giving a healthy thought to the counter points.
I believe, if you don't say aisiyos (which is a shortened version of thakuri/rana's Sawarihos modified to Aaibaksiyos) then you would come here and curse all those who say it. If you do say it then you will come here and defend those who don't. It is just plain baseless. Just let those say what they want and mind you karobar. My thoughts all in jest (handihalya).
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 09-Oct-03 12:40 PM
Gokulji,
That was a nice study, not only in zest, but in its power to look at behaviour of people. However, costlessly signalling to differentiate one's level has one hazard: since there is no cost associated with it, even those who don't posses high quality can use that language without any associated cost. So, in equilibrium, there will be no costless mechanism that can falsely elevate one's status, since otherwise everybody will be using that mechanism and be considered elite, but if everybody uses that mechanism and be considered elite, then no one is elite. Isn't it?
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| ashu |
Posted
on 09-Oct-03 06:31 PM
Gokul,
Enjoyed reading this very much.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| rbaral |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 06:24 AM
Gokul,
What an observation!
Thoroughly enjoyed your writings.
I agree with Ashu in another thread. There seems to be a correlation between a newly built house in Kathmandu and how smutty your Nepali verbs become.
Rishi
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 03:22 PM
Gokul ji,
What a dispassionate and objective analysis ! Very true- the change in the pattern of the use of spoken language in Nepal is actually indicators of the cultural and economic flux of the rapidly changing society.
syos has never bothered me. As a matter of fact, I like it as I find it a de-royalification of it (which again represents my own cultural flux of mind !). What bothers me is actually the old stagnant hierarchy of timi-tapaain-hajoor in the bureaucracy. That's got to change.
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| oys_chill |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 03:38 PM
gokul jyu, (now if jyu should be taken in similar vein as well :P)
It might be correct in context of Nepal, for as for myself, Hajur was never prevalent in our home. Even when my mom would shout on top of her lungs "oysssssssssssssss!" i'd go "KKKKKKKKKKKKKK"? and everyone would scold me, sometimes even the guests, and that irked me all the more. So tapain was the highest respect given to anyone in my home. Yes, people would give me queer stairs when I used tapain in households where Hajur was dominant. But, when i don't give the term to my parents, how can i use it on someone else??
As for using those terms in Sajha, I am a prime advocate of it, and i don't feel superior, alienated, ashamed nor there's any psychological explanation to it. I just do it for the heck of doing it. Not everything has to be explained with reasoning and logic I think. So, as for sajha trends go, I agree with Kiddo completely. (lau maile ni di hale zest and zeal ma :)
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| Kiddo |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 03:55 PM
Thanks Oys. Finally, somebody coming forward and making sense.
I agree with Biswo a bit and Nepe too.
Personally I hate the mentality of categorizing people just because they act and talk differently than you do. Oys doesn't use those 'syos' language but does have a healthy outlook of why other people use it. Just coz, they are used to it. Now there are some people who are class aware and wanna use that language, but to heck with them. Just let 'em use it and stop complaining already. We have better things to complain here.
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 04:58 PM
Kiddo,
While, there is no point in complaining the use of 'syos', there is also no point in complaining the complain about the use of 'syos'. Let's be fair.
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| Dilasha |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 05:10 PM
Gokul ji, tikkhar analysis yahan ko. I particularly don't like it when people use the "syos" words to some and the "oonus" words to the rest. Why not be consistent with everyone? would love to write more but have to run now...
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| Gokul |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 05:15 PM
Kiddo,
Let me make a few things clear.
(1) First of all, this was written entirely in jest. If I want something serious, I would sent my writings to some academic journals.
(2)Second of all, I never complained or supported anything. My objective was to explain the things the way they are (descriptive), and not to dictate what they should be (normative) without introducing the biases from my own personal background and upbringing. I belong to a middle class and we never use "Aisyos" language. However, my close relatives are both elite and low-class and hence I have got the opportunity to observe both of them closely. The reason I don't speak "aisyos" language is just because of my love for simplicity rather than some deep-rooted antipathy to the elite class. I don't feel we have such an impenetrable class barrier in Nepal that we need to resort to the Dialectic Materialism of Marx and Engels.
(3)Last but not the least, this writing may not have any practical significance. But I am the last personal to worry about such things. As I already said, my interests are more light-hearted and theoretical in nature. So, you should feel heavy-hearted at your own risk of premature strokes.
O man!, thee seeks meaning in meaninglessness and meaninglessness in meaning (Kiddaija 10, 1).
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| Kiddo |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 05:26 PM
Nepe, there is a point on complaining/dismissing a meaningnless discussion. Please go over my posting. And it ain't a question of being fair or unfiar but merely, making sense.
Gokul, I hope you aren't taking it personally. I am just fed of people picking out these things about culture, class. In my opinion, it just makes things worse. To point out classification is to nourish it. Why don't we just let them use the language they want to and use the one that we like to. Sure, there might be people who use the language to distinguish their class, but if you act indifferently that wouldn't hold any significance. We can't stop them from using those words so why bother?
Not in jest.
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| RBaral |
Posted
on 11-Oct-03 04:59 AM
OK. I am fluent in syos, nus, and baksyos. My close relatives are a blend of Bahun, Chettri, and Thakuri, some of them claim to be living in Kathmandu for quite a time!
But, I find it intriguing someone seemingly switching from nus to syos. Problem might be with me, but that is what I feel.
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| yoUnGbLooDZ |
Posted
on 11-Oct-03 09:18 AM
Mapaile pani hajur ko lakhai padhisiyo.. ani ramro lagisyo..
yb
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 11-Oct-03 02:02 PM
Hi,
The article think it was not picking on culture, if I understood it correctly. It is this: if signalling through language is effective, why is this 'syos' thing no longer effective? I think it is a very valid social science question.
Now, my take was the signalling is not working because it is costless, and which therefore implies that in equilibrium, everyone would be speaking this language, or everyone would be getting rid of it. Given the difficulty inherent in it, in deed it is being got rid of.
Other means of signalling , to show elevated status, such as buying BMW or baroque-style house in Budhanilakantha, however are effective tool to show one's status, and differentiate one from others. Simply, because, a man of 'non-elevated' status can't afford to do the same.And in equilibrim, only rich people end up buying them.
No culture question here, I think.
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| Gokul |
Posted
on 11-Oct-03 03:10 PM
Biswoji,
You clearly saw what I really wanted to show, while some see things which I never intended in the first place. May be it is their confirmation bias. I tried but as someone once said "Yatne krite yadina sidhyapi kotra dosha?"
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| Kiddo |
Posted
on 11-Oct-03 03:22 PM
Thula badha kura kyari bujhnu.
Sanskrit pani phyakna thale. Jadhau malik. Trahiman!!!
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| Gokul |
Posted
on 11-Oct-03 05:33 PM
kiddo,
take it easy man. it dunn matter. basibiyalo matrai ho.
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