| Username |
Post |
| Bilbo Baggins |
Posted
on 09-Oct-03 02:33 PM
Last twelve years has proven that Nepali leaders can not handle democracy. They are not capable of being democratic. Cycle chadne manche lai Car diye ra kahan hunch!!
I think "DICTAORship" is what we need. Before you go jumpining on me and calling me names, please help me analyze something.
In the history of Nepal, when were we "respected" in the global sense? What time period was considered Golden Time in our history? Which time period signifies the height of architural and "scientific" development in Nepal? When were we better off than we are now? ... well in my opinion ... they were all during the "dictatorial" periods if you will. So does it not make sense and stick with what worked for us rather than try to copy the Western World's so called DEMOCRACY!!!
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| dautari |
Posted
on 09-Oct-03 04:29 PM
Until and unless we take some concrete step to get rid of corruption, Nepal will never go "unbho" no matter what system we have.
And, yes, perhaps Nepal is asking the history to repeat itself and bring forth another "Jung Bahadur". Who knows?
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| barad |
Posted
on 09-Oct-03 04:32 PM
i understand ur sentiment,but democracy is a long term commitent,and its the leaders that are at fault,no system is perfect,democracy has been tried and tested,and it works.we just need people who can lead,and not the narrow minded,exclusive nature of politics that is prevalent in nepal.
by the way whats going on in nepal,ive talked to a few people who just came back from ktm,they say tha tthere is an increased confidence in the military that they can push back the maoist to rolpa and rukum,and try and contain them there.they say that surya bahadur is no deuba,he has the experience to see it thru.
god knows........unfound optimism maybe?
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| ashu |
Posted
on 09-Oct-03 06:10 PM
Both China and India are mired in corruption. So is Italy.
Yet they are all making economic progress.
To paraphrase economist and philosopher Amartya Sen, a country does not become fit for democracy; it becomes fit because of democracy, and that's what we all have to help make in Nepal . . . make Nepal fit through democracy.
Sure, it may seem difficult at times, but not impossible.
For an excellent essay by Sen, please see this artcile in an issue in The Journal of Democracy:
http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/jod/10.3sen.html
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| failedstate |
Posted
on 09-Oct-03 08:23 PM
Corruption is a by-product of a weak rule of law, economic opportunity, poor pay, and low living standard. Poor political culture, greedy leaders, and double standard will just make it worse. That is the story of our 12 years of democracy. Elections alone do not guarantee democracy.
As the economy moves on a growth path, the demand for better governance and strong institutions will tend to increase, and the corruption begins to wane. Dirty corruption becomes legalized corruption as in the US. You must keep fighting to close the loopholes.
The leaders have to be true leaders and selfless to deliver such instituions thourgh good legislative agendas. Bangladesh is democratic but is ridden with poverty and the rule of law is horrible. Hence it ranked at the bottom on the corruption index. China has corruption but nowhere near as bad as in India. Malayasia is riding high in economic path (started out at around the same level) but has surpassed Nepal and India many folds. Yet, it is hardly a democratic country.
S Korea became free only recently, yet it's economci growth was pretty good under a strong autocratic regime. But, it had a good rule of law, highly educated manpower, and economic freedom attracting heavy dose of FDI. Having US on its soil did not hurt it either. China is not free and yet it is a safe and predictable country and does invite billions of $ every year many more folds than in India.
In Nepal, I wish we had just one solid good leader to get us on a right track. When a leader like Bhattarai tells the crowd that it was OK to be corrupt, what do you expect from others. It all starts from the top, including the palace. Institution building is a continuous process, and I am hopeful just like Ashu. I hope the Maoists do not over take it to turn it into a Polpotian regime with hundreds of thousdands of dead bodies all over the country.
That's why it is so important for our leaders to simply say: " We made a mistake, and we will change and do the right thing... now on."
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| rbaral |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 06:18 AM
With Nepali democracy turning to an autocracy, something I had once longed for has now become a fading memory.
But, I get disturbed when I remember walking on the Kathmandu streets around '46 sal, chanting slogans against Panchayat. The system that gave our country so much peace and stability was being cursed right under my nose, and I was a part of it.
I don't at all mind at a few getting filthy rich, if peace and stability is guaranteed.
Democracy is good to hear about and to read at. See those beautiful Himalayas to the North, they are astounding to look at, but I can't live there. I'll freeze to death.
Namaste, Rishi
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| Bilbo Baggins |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 07:49 AM
Ashu wrote: Both China and India are mired in corruption. So is Italy. Yet they are all making economic progress.
So if all we care about is economic progress, then why does Nepal need Democracy. China isnt a democracy and they are doing fine economically .
Ashu wrote: To paraphrase economist and philosopher Amartya Sen, a country does not become fit for democracy; it becomes fit because of democracy, and that's what we all have to help make in Nepal . . . make Nepal fit through democracy.
I agree with you, however, there are a lot of pre-requisites for democracy to make a country fit. Water is good, we need it to survive, 75% of our physical self is made out of water, but if we see a pond, rich with water and not knowing how to swim, jump in the water, there is very little chance that we will survive. Democracy is that water, the problem with Nepal is that we jumped in the lake of Democracy without knowing how to swim. I am not arguing that Democracy is not the best system we have at our disposal but I am simply saying Nepal is not fit to be a Democratic country as yet. Lets simply look at the history and use what has worked for us in the last 500 years!! As the situation is now, Ashutosh Ji, it is IMPOSSIBLE and the sooner we face that fact and come out of denial the better it is for the country. I have heard from one time ministers of all parties (RPP, Emale, Congress) and are consistent with one statement "Up till now the Maoist are not ready to take over the country, but they are getting stronger everyday." Mr. Nepalis of this world ... that's real ... that's what needs to be defeated and I am not so much stuck in the principle of democracy that I want to see my beloved country destroyed and defeated. I am willing to support anyone that can help in bringing peace, safety, and stability in Nepali Society.
I want Nepali leaders and Nepal lovers of this world to think of what is best for Nepal, not for an individual Nepali! Its hard to do that. In fact sometimes its hard to distinguish the difference. But for Nepal to continue to exist Nepali leaders and Nepalis around the world must dedicate itself to the country and not to a set of political rules.
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| Poonte |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 08:19 AM
First of all, what we had in the past 12 years was NOT democracy--it was merely a half-hearted, so-called "constitutional monarchy" where the monarchy was still above the law, people (specially in the rural areas) were still denied opportunity, justice, and even the slightest hope of better lives, and only the elite (both politcal and darbariya, and their respective chamchaas) stood any real chance of prosperity. Naam le matra democratic bhanera kyarnu, thula? Kaam le aek paiso ko ni democracy thiyena kyara!
So, I don't think we can blame DEMOCRACY for the failures of Nepal in the past 12 years. Being democratic is not just a label, rather it should entail GENUINE desire on the part of the leaders (again, both political and darbariya) to ensure EQUAL opporutinity and justice to EACH AND EVERY member of the citizenry, so that even though many of our difficulties may not be solved overnight, the governed would have real faith in those who govern that the latter is genuinely interested, and trying hard, to solve them.
So, I think I was only granted half of democracy when the Late King Birendra decided to relinquish some of his authority to the political parties, and I now demand the other half! Don't snatch the half that I have now away from me by introducing dictatorship!
DEMOCRACY bhanne kuro, padhera matra hundaina...parera janinchha...tesaile, ghoda chadne Nepali harulai ladna deu...ladchhan, pachharinchhan, chot laagla, ghau hola...tara tei ghau-chot baata sikchhan, ani aghi badchhan.
Ho, ma saikil gajab le kudauna sakchhu, tara malai kasaile motor chalauna sikne moukai nadiye, ma kahile, kasari motor haankna sikoun????? Malai chai saikil ko duniya mai thunera aafu mattrai motor haankna bhayena ni, thula!
Nice quote there, Ashu!
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| Bilbo Baggins |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 08:35 AM
Democracy... Democracy ko naara lagayera matra hundaina ke. I am in full support of Democracy. And I also understand that in the last twelve years we did not tuly have a TRUE democracy. (Just a thought: there is no such thing as TRUE democracy, even in countries lke US and Canada, people are being prisoned just for being part of a certain groups. So even the freest of the freest countries in the world there is no TRU/FULL democracy.) Having said that, we can not really blame everything on Darbariya haru. It was not Darbariya who made Girija and KP Bhattarai fight till they destroyed the county when they had a landslide majority. I guess the fights between Deuba and Girija was also architected by Darbar. By no means am I saying that Darbar is faultless at the failure of Nepal; it has a major part in it. But tapai hami (hajur bhandin, pheri malai pani darbaryia bhanlaan) janta haru ko pani dosh cha. Hamro mentality nai testo cha. Democracy ko lagi fit nai chaina. Until we get power and favors we scream and complain but when we get what we want, Democracy Ko Goli maar.... Bhusya kukur jasto, kuin kuin karayera bhagcho!! Janta ko pani dosh cha ....
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| Bilbo Baggins |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 08:52 AM
Ok, I just thought that I share this with the group. I am doing the "cut and paste" here. I got this from some where in the internet. I closed my browser and forgot where I got it from but this is a great read:
Have fun reading:
Democracy was one of the political systems that established equality in society.
However, it is crucial to realize that this was not the only government that promoted
equality. Perhaps it is possible to attain peace through communismif it were not for some of its leaders that have different ideas for communism. In these two political systems, however, equality is defined differently.
Democracy believes that all citizens should play a role or have an influence upon the country. With this comes the freedom to express oneself. Communism is a political system in which all citizens are distributed the same amount of everything. Rather than having the wealthy and the poor separated, the wealth is spread out evenly. Other political systems offer equality as well.
One of these is fascism (otherwise known as dictatorship or totalitarianism). One leader would deal with civil disturbances, and would see to it that all citizens were treated equally. A wise leader would rule with fairness throughout his/her life, and would have the experience that no other person would have. This person would know how to act under different circumstances due to the experience gained during his/her childhood.
Finally, in socialism, equality is defined, similar to communism, by the absence of the wealthy and the poor. The wealthier are taxed more than the poor, and wealth is distributed. If the ideals of these governments were carried out, peace would exist in all political systems. After all, each system intends for the country to be successful and prosperous. However, the flaws of these ideas may lead to violence and warfare.
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| Poonte |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 08:58 AM
There are those who make mistakes knowingly.
And then there are others who do so unknowingly.
The former (like some of our leaders: again, both Singhadurbar-basi and Narayanhiti-basi) are the true villains in the progress of the society.
The latter (we the PEOPLE, and we know we ROCK!), didn't know anything better. Why? Because we were under a dictatorship for too long, and we were not only denied justice and hope, we never even had any real opportunities to makes mistakes, let alone learn from them. Now that we were making some mistakes and trying to learn from them, they want to snatch that opportunity away from us again? I know some of us are not as dumb as everyone else, but the vast majority of the Nepali people are, sadly, dumb -- not because they chose to be dumb, but because they were chosen by the elites to be so.
Now, we cannot get out of this dumb shell by letting a dictatorship close the lid on us again. The lid was only half open, and can we (EVERYONE--the politcal leaders, darbariya leaders, AND the people) now get rid of the lid altogether? Then perhaps if not now, or maybe not even in the near future, we shall certainly enjoy the fruits of democracy some time in the future. Otherwise, we will always remain dumb and helpless.
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| Bilbo Baggins |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 09:09 AM
Just a quick note: In Democracy and rule of law you can not claim ignorance. You can not always blame things on the past. You can not always say "Duh... officor I am sorry I did not know that I am not supposed to drive 90 miles per hour in a 60 mile zone." That is not a valid excuse. Do not look at Democracy as cure all... you will be disappointed!
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| Poonte |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 09:31 AM
Yes, if a person who knows the limit is 60 MPH, and PRETENDS he did not know it, thats plain stupid. This person would fall into the category of those who make mistakes knowingly. However, remember that I also talked about the other category: those who make mistakes unknowingly!
We the dumb people (or, at least, the majority of us) were/are GENUINELY unaware of many things because we were denied the opportunity to learn. Give us the real opporutnity to learn via democratic means, and, even though some of us obviously would be stupid, I, for one pledge not to PRETEND that I didn't know. Just do not deny me the opporunity to learn -- and dictatorship does just that!
Ani...dictatorship ko kura garda gardai...tyo Maoist distatorship ko po kura gari raa ho? BB ko piece taasecha...malai ta dar lagyo baaaaaaaaaaa...fan fani ghumnu bhanda baru tyo motor haankni ko puja garera basdai garnus...ma ta merai saikil chadera suinkucha thoken aba............
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| Bilbo Baggins |
Posted
on 10-Oct-03 10:01 AM
I wasn't talking about knowingly lying. I am saying that, the speed limit was 70 and then changed to 60 and I did not realize it... then I get stopped... does my failure to KNOW the exact speed limit at that specific section of the HWY is sign of DUMBness? Can I claim that I am simply DUMB and get away with it or even if I am DUMB I have responsibilities?
Anyway, tesari na tarsaunus na Poonte Ji, Maoist haru ta down right rotten bhai hale ni! I was talking about BENEVOLENT dictator as opposed to Maoist who are MALEVOLENT dictators.
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