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| Username | Post |
| VillageVoice | Posted
on 16-Oct-03 05:42 AM
The Kathmandu Post article by Ram Sharan Mahat. (Thursday, October 16) http://www.kantipuronline.com/php/kolnews.php?&nid=1260 |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 16-Oct-03 05:51 AM
- http://www.kantipuronline.com/php/kolnews.php?&nid=1260 |
| Arnico | Posted
on 16-Oct-03 06:21 AM
A good article. Yes, it is very important to let numbers speak for themselves! Villagvoice, thanks for alerting us. |
| Biswo | Posted
on 17-Oct-03 06:33 PM
A good article by Dr Mahat. Like Arnico said, let the numbers speak for themselves. |
| askme | Posted
on 17-Oct-03 09:10 PM
It all sound great... in the article, but reality can only be see after visiting Nepal or by the people who is facing the problems. I don't know what development the write is talking about... talk about some real stuff.... killing.. Looting... uneployment....violence...politicatal stability... corruptions ... how much progress we have made in these???? |
| askme | Posted
on 17-Oct-03 09:14 PM
http://www.gbnc.org/sajha/html/OpenThread.cfm?forum=2&ThreadID=12712 |
| me_too | Posted
on 18-Oct-03 09:00 AM
indeed there have been some progress in the last 10-12 yrs and the numbers do speak for themselves, but what about the numbers related to national debt, the amount of aid/grants? can someone provide them? it would be interesting to see how those would translate economically per project that the ex-finance minister cites.... |
| Qallu | Posted
on 18-Oct-03 09:16 AM
I agree a good article. Puts things in perspective, it does. But I disagree with some of my fellow posters who seem happy to let the numbers alone do the talking. I say numbers alone cannot speak for the state of the nation and its people. The decade after the 1990 people's revolution was surely a time of great promise and growth. There is no doubt that the panchayat era and the absolute monarichism was fraught with red tape, corruption and cronism that inhibited economic growth and progress. It was oppressive and debilitating. And yes, the post revolution decade of the 90s lifted that. But only to a degree. Retrospectively, one can argue that that expansion lasted through just the first part of the decade. It seems to me that following the mid 90s the course of our nation changed... subtly at first, but it gained momentum rapidly as the Maoists gained popularity with the most marginalized peoples for the alternative they provided to the increasingly corrupt and unaccountable "democratic leaders." And that change can be attributed to nothing other than the absolute failure on the part of our democratic leadership, their own cronism, corruption and their betrayal of the people. In the vaccum created by these "leaders" leadership rose the specter of the Maoists. Their continued betrayal led the Maoists to get away with calling themselves the "ppopular people's revolution." And this crisit - this place where we have Surya Bahadur as the PM! and the King again as the headhoncho. SAD! Ram Sharan Mahat's article was good. But the its a moot point. For me he dose not need to make a case for democracy - we know democracy is more desirable BECAUSE it gives " the people not only the right to choose their own rulers, and other social and political rights which are universally accepted as basic to human dignity, but also socio-economic benefits to enhance the quality of human lives." And numbers aside, the question Mahat asks... What happens in the absence of democracy and accountability? is a good one. I propose that we reframe the question and ask instead, "what happens in a democracy when there is no accountability?" The democracy fails. Yes, democracy takes time to come to maturity, and it NEVER will unless it is nurtured by leaders who are accountable to the people they represent. |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 18-Oct-03 12:56 PM
OPEN LETTER TO DR. RAM SHARAN MAHAT Dear Dr. Mahat, I just went through you article with a cup of apple flavored lipton tea just this morning, and now I wished to have your hotmail or yahoo email or wished if you participate in Sajha's kurakani for a further discussion. khayer tyo wish matrai na bhayo. I wonder why you suddenly lambaste on Nepali elites. Aru kohi napayera elite ko khoiro khedeko ho hajur jasto daksab le pani? Do you think we are the scapegoats for the failed democracy in Nepal? How come you can so easily forget the role of Nepali intelligentsia in and abroad making realize 1990's achievements? You so easily forget the medical doctors striking in TU teaching hospital on the eve of 1990 democracy? How come you can easily forget Non-Resident Nepali intelligentsia lobbying for democracy to diplomatic and donor communities, and media giants like Voice of America, BBC to realize 1990 democracy? Is your article directed to Nepali elites who didn't participate in Panch party's current call to protest for so called Oct 4 regression? What are you trying to convince us with those numbers? Don't we know how the numbers are made and played? Do you think Nepali elites got any attention or a place in Nepali politics in the post-democracy era? If so I suggest you to show their locus in post-democracy politics? While our Netas were abroad, did they cared to find where real Nepali elites are and called for their help to strengthen democracy and development? Instead, as for example, an apolitical person like Kanak Dixit who was in USA couple of years ago was encouraging Nepalis to join in mainstream development through his talk program or so. When you were in the city where I am located did you care to visit the institution like Asia's think tank for some intellectual stimulation or spare one evening with some Nepali here? The protocol was so stiff that we had to give up to meet you. khayer tyo tapai ko kura ho...hami jasto chan chune manchhe le hajur haru sanga kaha dekh bhet kura garna paunchham ra...How come you have a sensation to knock the door of some Kanchha Tamang or Tallaghare Jetha in Newakot for a vote during election, but couldnt manage to spare a single talk program with Nepali elites abroad? Let me further comment on your post itemized: 1. YOU said: >>>>...the character and traits of the Nepali society, particularly its intelligentsia and the urban elite[***BLEEP***]. But nothing would differentiate this group [***BLEEP***] from their counterparts elsewhere more prominently and starkly than its proclivity for negativism, sometimes bordering to cynicism. We take pleasure in glorifying the merits of other societies, while denigrating ours. This becomes obvious if one listens to the chattering at cocktails and coffee houses, high society living rooms or public discourses. It has become our habit and culture to see failure all around ....We have a tendency to exaggerate our weakness and minimise our strength....While one can also sense ...frustrations...., but much of this is either the reflection of a culture of negativism or a result of sponsored and motivated propaganda.<<<<<< As a Neta you should develop a habit to patiently listen the public uproars rather criticizing them. Did you realize where your weaknesses were when these people were chatting or gossiping whatever you may want to label them....As a Neta ji, it is NOT GOOD to blame Nepali society in general and critical mass of Nepali elites specifically. They are the one to bail the country when need. I would have been delighted to read if you had elaborated the sources of frustrations. Further, could you be more specific to who sponsored negatism in Nepali elites? By saying this group or that, where do you youre your status as a Nepali elite? Didnt Nepali janata chose you as a finance minister of the Kingdom of Nepal considering you as an elite barga? Or, are you the only elite in Nepal? |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 18-Oct-03 12:57 PM
OPEN LETTER to DR. MAHAT...(contd.....) 2. TIAs air traffic control for the accident is not a good example you are citing for. Please come up with some better examples. Remember that in most of the critical places like TIA, they are staffed by "neta's afno manchhe haru'. That's not the failure of Nepali intelligentsia, but gross failure of our netas. Therefore I won't be surprised if there was a traffic controllers failure for the accident. 3. You said: >>>>....Attempts are being made to paint the period dark - with everything gone wrong and bad under democracy.....<<<<<< Not really true. We are not definitely going to praise that legendary king's fabulous cloth. Remember that Nepali elites have cognitive capability to identify true color: kalo lai kalai bhanchhan ra seto lai setai&. 4. You said: >>>> The post-1990 political order has given the people not only the right to choose their own rulers, ....but also socio-economic benefits to enhance the quality of human lives.....<<<<<<<<< YES on the first part, but quite don't agree with the second one. Please visit the following link of one Nepali elites's observation about Nepal or Kathmandu to see if the quality of life there have indeed improved. There are many which you can digout in this Sajha's kurakani archives. - http://www.sajha.com/sajha/html/OpenThread.cfm?forum=2&ThreadID=12608 5. You said: >>>>....It is often forgotten that ....the first decade of the democratic Nepal saw an average of five percent annual growth....Initiation of a liberal economic regime ....surge in investment... 6 to 7 percent growth in non-agriculture sector. Export sector....a growth of 18 percent in dollar terms annually..... Foreign exchange reserve has now touched about 1.5 billion US dollars and fiscal deficit was brought down. Total road network increased from 7000 km to 16,000 km, and power supply from 200 to about 500 mw..... adult literacy jump from 26 to 42 percent &longevity from 52 to 62 years, expansion of transport and communication&drinking water facilities to more than 8 million additional population. Nepals position&152nd in 1990 to 142nd in 2000&. <<<< That's really deserves a wow remarks personally from me! However, why are you afraid to talk about inflation, strength of Nepali Rupiya, domestic financing of development, etc.? Strength of our development should be reflected in our currency. But, why thats not happening there yet? I have yet to look the Finance Ministrys annual reports but, are those growths your indicated a nominal or real one? Why are you afraid of bringing real GDP or GNP growth rate? Why you are not talking about the contribution of Nepali living abroad to sustain the economy? P.T.O. |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 18-Oct-03 12:58 PM
OPEN LETTER TO DR. MAHAT (Contd...) 6. You said: >>>>>>&achievements like these are &.taken for granted as natural developments. &main emphasis is on the failure&of the last decade&.system is blamed for instability, corruption, internal party quarrels and greed for power&..History shows that such phenomenon is not uncommon in democracies at early stages. Democracy takes time and efforts to attain maturity, and the system has ability for self-correction&&empowerment of anti- graft bodies like the CIAA &.medias search for sensation and the societys proclivity towards negativism, acts of omission and commission tend to be blown out of proportion at times. This often happens in a democracy&&<<<<<< a. Then why hue and cry about CIAs action against Girija, Chirinjivi, or Govinda Joshi, etc? b. So, you were for democracy to repeat the History, but not to advance the society there. c. Do you want Nepali elites to be self contained in your assertion of This often happens in a democracy ? Why you support the misbehaviors of politicians to happen often rather making it rare ? 7. You said: >>>>&.What happens in the absence of democracy and accountability? The experience of the last sixteen months, specially after the dissolution of the House of Representatives speaks for itself&.. 15km of roads &&..irrigated additional 2500 hectare of land with the investment of&billion rupees&. <<<<< Given the escalating Maoist related problem in the past two years, your affiliated party if was in government would have faced same dismal developmental performance. I dont find any big surprise to anyone who knows the mechanics of development. Development cant prevail without peace and security in the first place. 8. You said: >>>>&.where is all the investment going, if not in the black hole of corruption?&&&.sensitive ministries and departments is reported to be thick with gossips of unsavoury deals behind transfer and appointments to plum assignments&.. With no parliament to answer and media practically shut off, misuse of authority and corruption are rampant&<<<<< I suggest you to close your eyes, cross your fingers and toes, and look from inside the retrospect, and please write another article in Kathmandu Post or Nepali Times. I will then comment. 9. You said:>>>>&. While people may not have forgiven for the political horse-trading and other vices during the frequent government changes during the second Pratinidhi Sabha, those who symbolised this phenomenon are the ones rewarded under the present dispensation.<<<<<<<< Indeed people are tired of horse-trading. Thats why they went deaf in the Panch partys call. Finally you think Nepali elites are the most culprits for the demise of democracy and the rewarded one? Thank you so much for all and Good Luck! Oohi, Bhunte bhuntebhunte@hotmail.com (E-mail me or come to e-chat with me in the above e-address) |
| sapphire | Posted
on 19-Oct-03 06:33 AM
Hoina, bhunte ji lei aaja bholi "review on sajha articles" bhanne assignment ta linu bhayeko chaina bhanya? ho bhane badhai cha hai.. hoina bhane, maafi pau.... Shubhachintak... |
| Bhunte | Posted
on 19-Oct-03 07:28 AM
Saphhaire, lol.....then next in line is Arnico's article. |
| GP | Posted
on 19-Oct-03 01:54 PM
Let me point out why Nepali elites have negative attitude: 1. Nepali politicians are difficult to segregate who is chor or who is real desh sevak. Lets not forget, Mr. Mahat when he was offered of some Ministry in Deoba's last govt. did not attend sapath grahan and told that he was suffering from CHHERPATE. In fact he was lying that time. 2. In Nepal, all ghusyhaha get promotions and sidhasadha don't get. Govinda Raj Joshi's rise in NC an example. Govinda Raj Joshi did not have money to buy Polyster ko Pants in 2036 and now he has PAjero .......... So, why should not public be negative to NC and Mahat like people. 3. Corruption in last 12 years was sky racketing because of Girija Policy, and peoples have right to reject Girija Policy being negative to him. 4. Real culprits of problems were never punished, thus, peoples have no feeling or reason to be positive as Mahat cites in Thailand peoples are......... In Thailand, at least corrupts and criminals are punished in a ratio more than in Nepal, and peoples of Thailand have good faith in their govt., while in Nepal all corrupts and criminals like GRJ or Khume are free to commit crime and move freely. So, first thing to make elite Nepalis think positively is to punish corrupts and criminals and give a punishment that fits their crime. Yo sab ko chetana bhaya..... GP VA |
| ashu | Posted
on 19-Oct-03 07:14 PM
My own general thoughts: I have this long-standing informal theory that whenever C K Lal dai, for one, runs out of topics to write about, he faithfully returns to two of his all-time favorites at regular intervals. :-) One is 'bashing up of the Kathmandu's elites for every imaginable sin that this country has committed', and the other is, well, 'the generic bashing up of the bahuns.' Both are safe, predictable topics that please most members of the Nepal's expatriate community, who, let it be said, are always looking for easy answers to difficult questions about Nepal. In Nepali political discourse, the easiest way to reinforce your village or 'outsider' or non-elite credentials is to put on a crusader's mask and take on the Kathmandu ka bahuns and the assorted elites, and blame them for everything. You can't go wrong with this tried-and-true approach!! You don't even have to take the trouble to explain just whose these boodsucking elites are and what they do. Say the phrase "Nepali elites are khattam", and, presto, people will just understand what you are talking about, or so it seems. [Bahuns, I suppose, make up a subset of the elites.) And so, if you were born in a village someplace in Nepal (outside of Kathmandu), rest assured that you can pretty much milk that fact for the rest of your life to show how you are not a part of the so-called elites, even though, hey, your kids may attend, say, one of the fanciest schools in Kathmandu, your house may be in Bhainse Paati heights, your donor-given salary may be in US dollar figures financed by the loans that Nepal has taken out, your car may be Toyota Echo, and you and your family may exhibit the usual characteristics of Kathmandu's newly-rich.. And it doesn't matter whether the last time you were back in your village was 20 years ago or 20 months ago. The mere fact that you were born outside of Kathmandu INNOCULATES you against any charges of elitism ever. Coming back to Dr. Mahat, well, had we listened to Dr. Mahat and his cohorts' ko ELITE thinking on, to pick an example, howdropower development (remember Arun III?), some of the most heartening developments of recent times in that field (i.e. Nepalis building up power plants, investing their own money to sell bijuli to Nepalis) simply would not have happened. oohi "all for the rise of the meritocratic elites, regardless of whether they were born in Kathmandu or outside of Kathmandu" ashu ktm,nepal |
| Brook | Posted
on 20-Oct-03 01:07 AM
I have immense respect for Dr. Mahat both as a person and as a policy maker. But his article, which is basically an economic case for democracy and a multiparty dispensation, is, in my view off the mark. I agree with him when he touches upon responsibility and accountability issues and the general democracy-is-good essence that emanates from his essay. What I dont agree with him is on our perception of WHY democracy is good and needed in the context of Nepal. He basically says: Democracy is good because of the good things that happened in the past 12 years. I say: Democracy is good and is needed because of the mistakes we made during the past 12 years. He cites growth rates and an assortment of other macroeconomic data, increased rural road networks, increased wattage of power supply, literacy jumps, life expectancy improvements etc to paint a rosy picture. I say okay. Good. But what about data on growing wage and income gap between the highest and the lowest echelons of the socio-economic strata? How about data on poverty- rural and urban? How about data on agricultural output and productivity? How about data on leakages attributable to rent seeking? If improving the life of people, and by people, I mean the masses, is the paramount objective of any political order, then macroeconomic gains arising mostly in the form of spillovers from the liberalization years of early 90s amount to zilch in the absence of social protection measures netting in those about to fall into economic oblivion. The 12-year democratic drill did not fail because the leaders didnt liberalize the economy enough. It failed because it did two things at the same time. On the one hand it let in competition converting the Nepali economic scene into a Darwinistic dog-eat-dog type environment and on the other hand it let the social protection citizens were enjoying during the Panchayat regime slip. It was sort of like removing the ceiling and the floor at the same time. The returns involved in political dealings associated with the removal of the ceiling were so high that the slipping floor never caught the attention of people high up there. As for the reference to the "elites" I could tolerate CK Lal's ranting maybe because I could dismiss him soon afterwards, but when Dr. Mahat distances himself from the core I sense a dire need to redefine and reclassify the term =) |
| Nepe | Posted
on 20-Oct-03 08:47 AM
Brook, Where others seems to be confused, you make so much sense when you say, He basically says: Democracy is good because of the good things that happened in the past 12 years. I say: Democracy is good and is needed because of the mistakes we made during the past 12 years. How true ! |
| Bilbo Baggins | Posted
on 20-Oct-03 09:47 AM
The main problem in Nepal and Nepali Society is not who to blame or not but our refusal to ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITIES for our actions and BLAME people that differ from us for all the faults that Nepal has. Everone is to be blamed for the state of the current Nepal. People like Dr. Mahat who blame everything on Kathmandu inteligensias and bahuns to people like Bhunte and Ashu who blame the politician and the corrupt elites. There are people like me who, living in the USA, and are trying to force the NRNs idea about what a democracy should be to general population of Nepal. We are all to blame. How about the Intelegensia politician like Baburam Bhattarai and the Prachanda gundas ... they are to blame as well ... WE ARE ALL TO BLAME for the condition of Nepal. SO PLEASE STOP BLAMING EACH OTHER and focus on accepting accountabilities and swallow your pride for the sake of Nepal. BB |