| Username |
Post |
| SP |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 10:55 AM
Old thread is here: http://www.gbnc.org/forum/cfm/OpenThread.cfm?forum=2&ThreadID=1247
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| Darjeelingey |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 11:34 AM
Racist: Here is a start for you that was quoted by Bagdogra in another thread:
"We already have class inequality which was further enhanced by our learned forefathers by not allowing the jan sadharan to be educated en masse. Hence, inadvertently affecting the system that we now have! A whole pack of educated bahuns - which by the way, like I mentioned before, is NOT a coincidence.
With this in view - the non-bahuns, the underdogs, us who feel dominated by upper jat-bhais QUIT COMPLAINING and educate ourselves so our children and grand children enjoy what CAN be a more balanced society. We can strive to be a better breed, can we not????
Cheers "
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| Racist |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 11:50 AM
Mr Darjeelingey
Why do think education was discouraged During the Rana time? So the Bahuns could have the upper hand. They wanted to keep us in the dark. Do you think Chiame's could have gone to school during the Rana time ??? In general people do not trust them. Ask anyone would you rather trust a Bahun or rather Gurung,sherpa,newar,tharu etc etc
The answer will be pretty obvious.
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| Wamitaksar |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 12:00 PM
Ranas aren't Bahun. Most Bahuns didn't go to school during Rana regime either. Racist, you have some points, but scapegoating is wrong and intellectually lazy and doesn't lead anywhere but violence.
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| WWF |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 12:02 PM
This is something interesting to take into consideration:-
After the missionaries started travelling and professing their religion in India(mostly) and Nepal a lot of the so called " dalits" changed their religion and adopted names that were non discriminatory like "Edward","Smith" etc.
Could this be a solution, or a double edged sword? For,as the discrimination decreases with the change of names, our culture may diminish into the Christianity faith,( nothing against the religion at all) but religion also forms a part of the culture of a country. Christianity thrives on converting the down cast by propogating "that everybody is equal in God's Eyes". Hinduism and Budhism is embedded with equality I think but the rituals show otherwise, making the religion itself very discriminatory.
So maybe the solution lies in the change of sirnames. maybe we can give all the dalits a "Bahun" sirname, since all their rituals are quite close to the "bahuns" or whatever they want.
Any more suggestions?
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| sally |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 12:06 PM
My suggestion: Change all surnames to NEPALI.
(Just kidding, for those of you out there who need Cliff Notes for humor ... but it would bring about some interesting situations, wouldn't it?!)
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| Darjeelingey(ni) |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 12:14 PM
Sally, that would be an interesting concept if adopted by all and sundry!
Although, the surname "Nepali" is sometimes used by some Kami people, the upper castes might see this as an offensive idea.
A name is just a name in the west, a name in Nepal tells all......or does it?????
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| sally |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 12:22 PM
Darjeelingey(ni), That's exactly my point!
There are a lot of good symbolic reasons for this. You know, in a lot of ways, to the rest of the world, Nepal is so poor that all Nepalis are Kami ... and anyway, no matter how high-class a person is in Nepal, once they come to the West they're happy to scrub toilets or whatever, so the goal of many educated Nepalis IS to do so-called lower-caste work (as long as they do it in the West) ... and also, in Nepal, I suppose Kamis may provide some of the best role models of useful work!!!
Cheers.
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| Rastra Pukar |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 12:22 PM
"yek mat sally sanga" it is the best suggestion of changing all the surnames into "nepali". why do you say that it's just for kidding, sally? u r right.
Rastra Pukar/////
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| sparsha |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 12:44 PM
>>
There are a lot of good symbolic reasons for this. You know, in a lot of ways, to the rest of the world, Nepal is so poor that all Nepalis are Kami ... and anyway, no matter how high-class a person is in Nepal, once they come to the West they're happy to scrub toilets or whatever, so the goal of many educated Nepalis IS to do so-called lower-caste work (as long as they do it in the West) ... and also, in Nepal, I suppose Kamis may provide some of the best role models of useful work!!!
<<
I am quite amazed by your poor expression, Sally. Just because you are not a Nepali (I am not sure what you are)do you think you are at liberty to catagorize the entire Nepali peoole in this way ? ("You know, in a lot of ways, to the rest of the world, Nepal is so poor that all Nepalis are Kami..."). Really? I am also amazed to know how highly do you regard the Kami people. Also, "no matter how high-class a person is in Nepal, once they come to the West they're happy to scrub toilets or whatever" what's this supposed to mean? Is this how you see Nepali people? I wonder what you do and what qualification do you have to let loose derogatory comments towards the entire Nepali community.
sparsha
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| Racist |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 01:01 PM
I didn't say Rana's were Bahuns.
They needed Bahuns for their religious purpose. Thus gave them the Liberty to get away with a lot of things. I am not escape goating just stating the facts. Changing last names ??? not a concrete solution... If you look different eg. mongolian looking in a bahun community will never be their equal.
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| sally |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 01:08 PM
I wondered how long it would take for someone to insult me on that account ... As I've mentioned, I am American. As I have NOT mentioned before--but FYI, since you're so curious about "credentials" (what are yours, by the way?)--half the people in my family are citizens of Nepal. Almost all of them living there and going through the current rotten situation.
There's a reason I don't print my last name. You'd automatically assign me a caste identity if I did. Not that it matters.
I'm not insulting Nepalis, Sparsha. That would be pretty weird of me under the circumstances!!! It's a j-o-k-e. Jokes are frequently generalizations. Hopefully with a grain of truth. Got it?
And anyway, what have you got against Kamis?
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| A little person |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 01:11 PM
After reading all the postings especially Racist's it is apparent, HE IS THE RACIST AND A BIGOT AT THAT. He is pissed off because some people called him jyapu growing up. Well, well. People called me shorty (dalle) when I was growing up. Do you see me going after tall, lanky, handsome men? You are carrying the burden of name calling. You are not interested to find out what is ailing Nepali Society. You just want to get back to those people who called you jyapu, or pada. Grow up, racist and you bigot. bigotry begets bigotry. you are a prime example of that.
Liliputian.
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| Darjeelingey(ni) |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 01:12 PM
Sally, I must ask you to explain yourself a bit better as I also got mixed feelings about the same line that Sparsha seems to have a problem with. FYI, I think we're talking about NOT categorizing people and you went on to do just that - scrubbing toilets etc etc... and NO, not every educated or non-educated Nepali's goal is to do menial work.
But then, to give you the benefit of the doubt -I would like to hear you clarify this (if you could please). I would hate to end this with the thought that you are just one of "those" kuireys who generalize us Nepalese. I have agreed with your many postings on other topics and think that your views on many subjects have been valid.
On the other hand, unlike Sparsha, I have no qualms about being called so-and-so Nepali..(BTW, I am not a kami by birth). Like I said before, a name is just a name.
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| Darjeelingey(ni) |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 01:21 PM
Sally, I must have been writing at the same time you were!
Which part of your posting was a joke? the "Sally Nepali" part??
I have absolutely no problem with that. :) In fact, I was thinking that it was a wonderful idea...seems like some High-Castes had a problem hehehehe ....(psssst told ya so)
I assumed you were a kuirey (you could be and that still does not excuse you or anyone for making such a blatant comment.) and if you were not, then I'd have to excuse myself for presuming.
Yes, high castes/low castes/low class people do hold menial jobs here (US) but then you would be surprised how quickly our nepalese fellow-men have started classifying that as well. Don't you get it? its in-bred...one can only hope for the future - One's open-minded children!
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| sally |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 01:26 PM
OK, Darjeelingey(ni), to clarify ...
I'm just looking at the symbolic meaning of a name like Nepali. It's interesting that it happens to be dalit; I think there's something intriguing in that, with a lot of thought-provoking levels of meaning.
Obviously, literally speaking, no one's "goal" (educated or otherwise) is to scrub toilets. Who could possibly think that? But as a matter of fact people work very hard, pay all kinds of money, and pull all kinds of strings to come to the US, where (in spite of various caste taboos) they're happy to do menial work. It's interesting to me--and particularly to Nepali citizens in my family, who definitely comment on this--that menial work is no longer seen as "low" if it's being done in the US. Here, folks seem to adopt a more realistic viewpoint, namely, that it's a thing to be done to make some money. Pay your rent while in school. Save for going back to Nepal. Whatever. So in a certain sense, the "goal" of many people certainly CAN be said to scrub toilets in the US--for a while. And what's wrong with that???
The fact that many people who were conditioned from birth to see menial labor as negative are willing to see it--under changed circumstances (such as being in the US)--as positive, respectable, and a useful means to a personal end, says something about the whole idea of useful labor getting categorized as "low," doesn't it?
Anyway, I was attempting to express some of that in a humorous way ... sorry if not everyone understood.
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| Racist |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 01:40 PM
Lilliputian,
What do you think you're doing???? Aren't you doing the same caliing me names. stick to the topic.
Change names and you lose your old identity. I am talking about preserving one's culture. The identity of who you are. Yes I am a Nepali. But I am also a ......
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| sparsha |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 01:41 PM
"I wondered how long it would take for someone to insult me on that account ", Now, What does this mean? Insulted by whom and how? How were you honoring Nepal and Nepalis when you dropped words like these... Nepalis are glad to scrub toilets or whatever in the west and Nepalis are so poor that for the western world all nepalis are like kamis....Is this a joke, too?
My qualification that matters on this posting is I am a Nepali and almost all of my family members are Nepali. It's not my intention to insult anyone but I did not feel comfortable with what you wrote on entire nepali community. Even if you put your last name here that would not matter to me. All I look for in a posting is the material not the names of the poster.
What makes you think that I have anything against kamis?
"I'm not insulting Nepalis, Sparsha" If this what you really mean then there is no reason for me to argue.
Have a good day!
sparsha
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| Ooray |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 01:47 PM
well here i go... i put my name just to reflect my caste! I always used to be proud that we live in Nepal in harmony. i had grudges against "bahuns", but that was when i was in 4th grade and that's the last i can remember. since then i just don't care anymore.... and i get pissed off at bahun, newar, black, white, jews and everyone when they try cry foul every time relating every minute things to racism! maybe i have just turned cold against the idea, but i simply don't care. if someone wants to discriminate against me, that's his problem. i'll just wait until he gets his!
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| ooray |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 01:51 PM
and a clarification... being a newar doesn't mean you are economically sound, and being a bahun doesn't mean you have power connection!
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 02:48 PM
Sparshaji:
Since we are having e-discussion, we shouldn't ask for credentials
of anybody to discuss in a topic. Sally has been discussing in
this site for long, and it was never our policy to ask for anybody
how many Nepali members he/she has, or how chaste Nepali he/she is
to qualify for discussion.
Sally's sentence "The world sees Nepali as Kaami...." may have
insulted a few of fellow discussants because they interpreted
Kaami as derogatory word. Unfortunately, Sally's intention also
looks same. That's sad, given the previous liberal tone of her
remarks.
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| Joke |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 02:55 PM
Lets send the lil' person(lilliputian) to guliver land
where he would fell at home. what do you think saathiharu!!!!
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| liliputian |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 03:06 PM
Oh goodie!!!!
and come along with me all of you! You enraged souls who are foaming in their mouth by so called racism in nepal. You, who has grievances against some newars who only speak in newari (in a gathering), knowing well the other person does not speak a word of that language; and you bahuns who makes fun of ranga Ko masu while eating ranga ko momo in a dark Ason toll alley, and you madishe who rags on kalo topi, and you pahadiya who makes fun of dhoti; and you limbu who sees other matawali lower than the lowest and you Shrestha/Pradha who would never ever marry a manandhar. Come along. It is a party time
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| Woof |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 03:12 PM
Some people here are not happy with the surname 'Nepali' or so it seems. How about all our surnames change to Biswakarma?
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| sparsha |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 03:26 PM
Biswoji,
Let me make this clear. I am not against Sally, neither I intended to insult her (I don't know by what she got insulted)nor do I intend to do so. I am also not bothered by the fact that someone is (as a joke or seriously) suggesting all of us to change our last name to Nepali. I care less what one chooses to do with his/her last name. If a kami/sarki/newar/chhetri...etc wants to keep a bahun's last name(or vice versa) I will have nothing against that. I am not saying kami is derogatory word/caste.
I was bothered by these words of her "You know, in a lot of ways, to the rest of the world, Nepal is so poor that all Nepalis are Kami ... and anyway, no matter how high-class a person is in Nepal, once they come to the West they're happy to scrub toilets or whatever," .
I have read her many comments on many topics and more or less I was agreeing with her points of view. I thought her views are progressive and liberal. I was trying to learn things from her but some of her words forced me to reevaluate her stand. But when she says she has no intention to insult Nepalis, that's good enough for me. What I meant by the "qualification" is what made her (superior to those poor-ready-to-scrubb-toilet- nepalis who can be called Kamis) say such poor words against all Nepalis? Nothing else. May be the qualification word was not appropriate.
Biswoji, if you think that I didn't get her point then explain that to me what you got by reading her above quoted remarks.
"I'm not insulting Nepalis, Sparsha". I am satisfied with this sentence of her.
Once again, I don't come to this site to insult anyone be it Sally or anybody else.
sparsha
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| sally |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 03:29 PM
Sounds fine to me, Woof, but it doesn't have quite the symbolic resonance ...
Biswo, I'm sorry if you've misinterpreted. I'm surprised, in a way, that "Kami" is viewed so negatively even by so many liberal-minded people that the word--really just a caste identity, isn't it?--is taken as an INSULT!!! Can you imagine what it must feel like to have one's actual last name be permanently identified, forever and always, with something that even liberal-minded people consider an insult? Wow.
Anyway, let me try to explain my meaning. Nepal is a poor country, on the world's scale. (That's not an insult. It's reality.) Kamis are poor, as a group. (That's also not an insult. It's reality.) Consequently, Nepal can be seen as equivalent to Kami, on the world's scale. This is NOT, I repeat NOT, an insult!
If anyone thinks it's an insult to be equated with Kami ... hmmm, maybe they should do something thinking about where they got that idea, and whether, deep down, they think it's right to have that feeling.
Nor is toilet-scrubbing BAD. Maybe I should have seen "delivering pizza" or "working at Burger King" and that would have been less inflammatory. I mean, doesn't everyone know high-status professionals from Nepal who've worked at Burger King or something like that in the US? And why should anyone be ashamed of that?
Really, guys--that's what all immigrant groups do in the US.
Yeah, and there are lots of computer professionals, etc etc. But if the computer professional worked at Burger King during college, who the heck cares??? Immigrants do menial work. Same in Nepal. Look at all the tarkari wallahs saving money to go home to Bihar. Are they "low" because of their work in KTM? Or are they people who are making a decent living and have their own plans for the future?
Anyway, it IS sad to me that a lot of Americans look at some Nepali handing them french fries and don't realize that the person may be a very brilliant and respected professional at home. (Sad but true.) It's also sad to me if a Nepali sees a tarkari wallah as some kind of stereotype who doesn't belong there, and doesn't recognize he has hopes, dreams, humanity. Or when an American white just sees a black face and makes a judgment. I'm sure that it must be the same for, say, a theoretical Ram Nepali (or Ram BK) when some people make judgments about him based on what he does, or who his parents were, rather than who he is.
But I do NOT think that a person's job, or parents, or anything else says anything about whether s/he is smart or dumb or lazy or greedy or cunning or whatever the stereotype of the moment may be.
Btw, Sparsha, there's a lot of space between "honoring" and "insulting." Usually, discussion falls in the middle, within that very wide space. If everyone was allowed to say only non-critical things "honoring" Nepal we'd be back in the panchayat, wouldn't we?
Anyway, I've sure learned today just how "loaded" a name like Kami can be. As I said earlier ... to propose that people use the last name "Nepali" brings up some interesting issues, doesn't it?!?
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| JOKE |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 03:31 PM
AAIke duuiii teeen
Lilliputian ko din
Raja rani sawari bhayo
Lilliputian ko din
what do you say ???
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| Puritan |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 03:38 PM
Hey guys
You guys are so busy writing on racism in Nepal. How about stopping it now. Why don't you find out another issue? Just a opinion...
Sham...
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 03:43 PM
After reading both Sparsha and Sally, both of whose liberal views
I don't doubt, the obvious conclusion is that we are probably
becoming oversensitive in this discussion site.
It is great to see that rather than exacerbating the tones, both
of the posters tried to clarify their remarks. OTHERS in this site
can obviously learn from this.
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| sparsha |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 03:49 PM
"Btw, Sparsha, there's a lot of space between "honoring" and "insulting." Usually, discussion falls in the middle, within that very wide space. If everyone was allowed to say only non-critical things "honoring" Nepal we'd be back in the panchayat, wouldn't we? "
Sure Sally, here I agree with you. There is, indeed, a lot of space between "honoring" and "insulting." I am not, however, quite sure whether discussion falls in between or not. What I am certain about is I am not expecting sugarcoating lipservice to Nepal or Nepalis.
Looking at the present situation in Nepal, I don't know how bad the panchyat system was compare to the one that we have in Nepal these days. What we expected (a system for better Nepal)with "bahudal (democracy?)" is nowhere to be seen and what we wanted to banish with panchayat (poor governance, corruption, etc.) are everywhere and are growing day by day.
sparsha
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| Too long |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 03:51 PM
People need to write short and to the point.
These longass comments are taking forever to read.
Its the I-net, y'll don't have to be so formal.
That was the whole reason this medium was created.
what do you think ???
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| Ditto |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 03:56 PM
To go to Durbar Marg from New road....
You don't go around tripureshore, thapathali, singha durbar.
Just take Kantipath you're there in a minute.
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| ooray |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 03:58 PM
that's it! i'm producing a mutt!
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| QED |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 03:58 PM
Sally, your logic fails.
You claim:
Nepal is a poor country, on the world's scale. (That's not an insult. It's reality.) Kamis are poor, as a group. (That's also not an insult. It's reality.) Consequently, Nepal can be seen as equivalent to Kami, on the world's scale. This is NOT, I repeat NOT, an insult!
This is similar to saying:
1. America is a rich country.
2. Lawyers (in America) are rich, as a group.
3. Consequently, America can be seen as equivalent to lawyers.
You decide if this is or is not an insult.
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| PDK |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 04:47 PM
RE: Sally's comparison:
According to sally,
Nepal is a small country
Mice are small
Nepal can be seen as equivalent to mice.
Sally, please don't teach your kids this.
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| NeapliNewari |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 04:57 PM
Anecdotes of Nelson Mandelas' life by Strini Moodley a member of the underground african national congress...
("After I was taken to B-section [at Robben Island] ... this young 17-year-old came to open up the doors and said, 'Good morning,' and I never greeted. I felt I had no obligation to greet prison warders. But he opened Nelson's door, and said, 'Good morning, Nelson,' and I freaked. I went straight to Nelson and I said, 'But how can you allow this little white boy here to call you Nelson? He must either call you Mr. Mandela, or Sir. You can't allow him to call you Nelson. He's a little kid.'
And he said, 'Oh, come on my boy, don't worry about that. These are little things. We're in prison now. We've got to take them in our stride.' I just thought no, that's something I would not be able to deal with that kind of thing, because this is my leader. I can't have some little white boy calling him Nelson.)
This just goes to prove that like Elenor Roosovelt said
"Great Minds Discuss Ideas,
Average Minds discuss events,
Small Minds discuss people"
Every one draw your own conclusions!
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| sally |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 05:07 PM
Dear PDK,
Actually my kid loves mice.
But if Nepal were to be compared with mice, then America (in its nature as the World's Lawyer) might sue Nepal for copywright infringement on behalf of Mickey Mouse :-)
I think I'll just stick to describing it as a yam. Unless that can also be interpreted as an insult ... and don't tell the Chinese and Indians they're "boulders," they might take it to mean they have "heads like rocks" or something, and start a war.
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| PDK |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 05:14 PM
Sally,
Maybe you are too good of a writer who can reply back pretty quick and strong. But you are going away in a different direction than what you were saying earlier.
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| sally |
Posted
on 10-Jul-01 05:21 PM
I don't think it's a different direction--except maybe horizontal, from exhaustion!
But thanks for the compliment. There are a lot of good writers and thinkers who post here (and some not-so-good writers and thinkers). Anyway, most people here are writing and reading in a second language, which is better than I could do.
I do think we're all basically on the same page about racism, though.
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| PDK |
Posted
on 11-Jul-01 12:34 AM
Of course sally, you are going towards the wrong direction in defending yourself. It is irrelevant if your kid likes a mouse or a dog. You cannot say Nepal can be seen as equivalent to Kamis. If I and other readers do not understand your humor here, then i should say you have a poor sense of humor.
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| mussa |
Posted
on 11-Jul-01 09:45 AM
can we keep mice&dogs out of this ?
This discussion only leads to one point...
We are all racist. we all discriminate in a way or another. Although we would not admit to it, but deep down we are all bigots and racist.
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