| Username |
Post |
| ANA photo thread cont'd |
Posted
on 12-Jul-01 09:04 PM
GP wrote:
Sexual Harassment is a major problem in Nepal, that
can not be denied. Though many might deny, but, unknowingly
many girls and women suffer from such harassment. In fact,
the persons harassing women, might even don't know whether
his action falls under sexual harassment. This topic
should be discussed. I , of course, appreciate the Miss Nepal contents because it will help in women's personal devopment,
meanwhile, they should not be exploited in the name of
contests.
###
What I've heard about college classrooms in Nepal is that women students face a lot of harassment. I've even heard that women teachers at Ascol get harassed. I don't have firsthand knowledge of this though, so I wonder what others think, or have experienced.
Sally
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| GP |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 01:22 AM
Few examples of sexual harassment in day to day life
(in the context of Nepal and Nepalese):
1. Bus --public bus ---
2. School and Colleges
3. Street Corners.
4. Jatra Matra ---a friend of mine and I witnessed
such harassment in side Pashupati Nath Temple --
We chased that male --who harassed an young girl
in broad day light ---, but, he managed to escape
from the Bhid.
5. Police Stations.
6. Near Army Camps.
7. Near Male Hostels: Ascol Hostel: Wow, they shoult
lot in day time meeting, but, in private they
are worst than professional ticket blackers in Cinema Hall.
8. Ticketing counters in Cinema Hall, Bus Stand, where not.
9. Restaurants ---evening party/dinner time -- The waitress.
10. Nepali Male Celebrities' visit abroad. I had once a hard time
in getting rid of a Nepali movie actor --so called night
scene dine wala Nepali movie actor chasing a Nepali
woman abroad --.
11. List goes on . . . . Extreme scene around campuses
as Fagu Purnima approaches.
12. Miss . . .. contests (in Nepal ???? ). Work Places.
12. Movie Shootings? Selection of female actress for movie
or TV commercial advertisements. (There must be alot
sexual harassments, that is not revealed or not
approachable, but, .. . . . . should be documented.
These are all sexual harassments of varying degrees.
Though I heard sexual harassment stories a lot, saw movies
like DISCLOSURE, but, realized what could be SEXUAL HARASSMENT,
when my employer sent me a manual "What could be sexual
harassments?". The lowest degree of Sexual harassments
are for example (there could be deliberate sexual motives):
1. "Can you give me lift in your?" ==> to your female
colleagues, who are lower ranked in your office.
2. To ask such low ranked female (w.r.t. your rank in
the org.) for lunch or dinner together or movie.
3. To ask for a photograph or her private details.
4. To touch any parts of body of a female colleague.
5. To talk "SEXY" issues/ matters infront of female
colleagues.
6. . . . . . so many .. . . . Please go to certain
Web sites for more details.
Considering all these facts that the issue of sexual
harassment should be discussed in the contexts of Nepal.
If there are no cases, all the peoples are like
Laxman or Ram of Ramayan, thats a great, but, we should
have our own new standard to measure or classify what
is SEXUAL HARASSMENT, there should be enough public
awareness. SEXUAL HARASSMENT awareness will protect
women, their participation will increase, but, not
decrease. Why back in Nepal, young girls from so called
descent family hesitate to join MUSIC classes,
DANCE classes, police service, army jobs, movie actress,
. . . . all these because peoples are scared of sexual
exploitation. In order to bring them on front line,
we need protection mechanism from wrong doers, well,
some might have done things by mistakes. In Japan,
for example, in Tokyo or anywhere else, if girls
just out of Train goes to security personnel in the
station and tell that "... guy (no name, just by finger
point) harassed me inside the train", will lead the
guy in hell whether he had really done something right
or wrong. The guy either pay 50,000yen as fine (BAKKIN),
sign then, leave or go to police custody and
wait for years to prove that you have done nothing
wrong. Such a power was given to women, and of course,
some have exploited such power to make money. well,
it has dark side, but, surely it has secured majority
of women from sexual assault in public places. We need
some brave women who can tell real story how they were
sexually harassed. I am afraid whether I had comitted
some mistakes in the past knowingly or unknowingly or
while I was in group. I do not claim that I never
made mistakes, and in order to know my position and to
avoid any mistakes from my side too, I want to have
our society create some standard on "What can be
sexual harassment?". We should start from education,
before we start punishing wrong doers.
Keep it on.
GP
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| Namita Kiran-Thuene |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 09:47 AM
Sally,
Bus route from gaushala to rani pokhari. two rows of long bench (so that the conductors could fill in as many people as possilbe in between)facing each other. Time: after the rush hour. The bench was full and I was one of the lucky ones to get a space. A person in his daura suruwal and dhaka topi comes in and stands right infront of me. After a few seconds i realize some pressure in my leg. and, i am thinking "ok, here goes my morning. should i yell right now and wait until i am sure what is happening." well, after a few minutes there was no mistake the guy in nepali poshak was pressuring his legs on to my knee. I don't know maybe arousing himself! I was wearing this high red spike heel so I lifted my other leg and slammed onto his foot and did not lift it right away. The next thing I knew he was slithering towards the infront of the bus. I did not say anything and he did not say anything.
The story does not end there. after a few days i heard the door bell. I peeked from upstairs and at the same time my mother went to answer the door bell. Guess who was there? the same guy!! i am not making this up. he was there to performn some puja for my mother. Well, Well. I then blurted out from upstairs on the top of my voice,"oh my god, this is the guy who was touching me in the bus, this is the guy..." Needless to say he could not leave fast enough.
Now, the story does end here. I heard after a few months this person went to some char dham and got one of his hands caught in the door in one of those rickety trains of india. it was dimembered at the spot. He died from the shock!
Only I wish how great it would have been if this would happen to all the other dangerous abusers. And, yet I think his crime was not even that serious.
This kind of scene is so frequent it is like eating dal bhat. You don't even think twice after a while. you take it as a part of being born as a woman. I have heard a freind of mine screaming on our way to campus. She was grabbed in the borad day light! Like GP says it happens everywhere everyday. It all comes down to men thinking woman as a thing, a second class citizen not even that maybe.
I hear Japanese men are not better than these nepali men. there is even a term for the grabbing and pushing phenomenon that happens in the bus. I forgot the termn now.
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| sally |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 12:51 PM
Why do you think this happens?
It seems to be so contradictory of basic Nepali values. So much importance is placed on things like respect, ijjit, and not shaming one's family through private behavior. Certainly the idea of not shaming one's family would seem to include personal behavior like cat-calling at girls, groping them, etc.
Yet it's clear that this type of behavior exists. My sense, anecdotally, is that it's more widespread in contemporary Nepal than in the contemporary US. Although US attitudes towards women aren't exactly a model of greatness--in fact, I wonder if the way MTV (and the Western media in general) portrays women has an impact on sexual harassment in other countries.
Namita, it's interesting that the lecher was a priest ... in the US it seems that ministers and priests are often getting caught in sex scandals. Especially the most conservative ones. Gary Condit, the congressman in the Chandra Levy case, is a Democrat but is known as a real social conservative and supporter of the religious right.
Btw, I once read a KTM Post article in which a light-skinned female reporter donned tourist clothes, stuck her hair under a baseball cap, and went around town on Bikram tempos with a Lonely Planet guidebook in her hand. She said she was treated much better as a supposed "foreigner" than she was as a Nepali woman.
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| Namita Kiran-Thuene |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 02:27 PM
Groping etc. is not as rampant here as in Nepal. I have never experienced here, so far. But look around you. This phenomenon is not only confined in a conservative society like ours (Japan, india, to some extent china) but it seems like it is just a matter of opportunity (to abuse). Do men treat women more respectfully here than in Nepal? I seriously doubt this. Women are battered, killed, raped everyday here. Remember the central park jogger incident? And, what about that festival where women were nearly raped in broad day light, also in New York, that was captured in a Video camera?
Why do groping, pushing, touching happen more in Nepal that say in Germany or in the USA? Why does this happen in Japan and India not in France? The one common thread I find here is how repressive these societies are. Everybody is supposed to be chaste, pure, obedient. Women are supposed to be Devi. Devi and female infanticide. Reverence of female sex and groping in a dark corner of an alley or in a bus or in a cinema hall. Reverence of tradition. Women 2 steps behind husbands. Women 2 step behind human kind. Women working 18 hours in villages where their animals work 10 hours. 39 year old women look like 80 in a village en route to my trekking. Groping is just a symptom of a tumor that people refuse to acknowledge.
Have you heard what happens in Indian trains? Bosnian Muslim Women in Balkan war? Just women. From Sita to maybe Chandra Levy. Women’s non-existence living. They are invisible. They are things. Yup let’s put them in a showcase and rate them. The consequences? Who cares.
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| sally |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 03:23 PM
It seems like if there's harassment going on in a classroom, everyone loses--including the serious male students. And if there's harassment going on on a bus, it's got to wreck the atmosphere for everyone.
A lot of socially conscious men at least give lip service to being anti-discrimination, anti-harassment, and so on. I wonder if men ever speak up about these things.
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| chand |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 04:22 PM
It goes on here and everywhere. It depends upon the person, if the person is wearing provocative clothes....of course she is going to get reaction from men. I don't think people are going to harrass you just like that.
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| keta |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 04:38 PM
Chand,
the reaction from the men shouldn't be physical. Women has rights to wear whatever she wants to wear. You have responsibilty to control yourself. Men have that rights too.
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 04:39 PM
I am very very impressed by arguments of GPji.
Nepal can't prosper without active participation of women in
Nepal's development. Nepal's domineering male machismo thinks
female are secong-grade citizen.
Ascol classes are just an example. I was there, and I had seen
madams getting harrassed by students.It is so difficult to
understand what excites those teenagers to act that way.
Unless we have strict laws to safeguard women in workplace,
there will be enough sanctimonious husbands who feel it
humiliating to let their wife work.
It is time we make such law. Protection of law is the only
genuine protection. Men are not the protectors of women.They
are just friends.
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| Manjari |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 04:46 PM
hmm, yeah I can relate to Namita's experience. I think it's hard to avoid being harassed if you have to use the public services like the bus etc.
Contrary to the example that Sally gave, an Australian friend of mine had to experience sexual harassment several times..mostly around Thamel area. It could be the area too. Her theory was that these men considered western women more "easy". I remember on one occasion when we were walking in Lazimpat and a guy came up to us and asked her if she wanted to have sex with him !! We just ignored him and walked on.
I am just thinking, what can we do when faced by such situations?
If we object, and make a scene, we also go through public humiliation and embarrasment, although it wasn't our fault.
Yes, I too wonder, what do the men think or say in this matter ?
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| dumdum |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 05:01 PM
Contests like Miss Nepal only encourages such males, I am sure.
They think women are just made for showing off their flesh, and
win the prize.
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| GP |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 07:47 PM
Dear Chand,
You think that it depends on personal beahvior and
physical experience. Then, you are wrong. We are
missing one most important thing: freedom and
choice. We should develop our cities, towns
and villages and social thinking in such a way
that it should allow peoples to move whatever
way they like. Even if someone wants to move
in two pieces in broad day light, and if we
are proud of democracy and freedom, then, he/she
must be protected by the law from wrong doer.
Of course, descent physical appearance is a different
thing, and it should be personal, but, just because
someone physically looks different from your
expection does not mean s/he deserves to be
abused or insulted. There should be a genuine
place to report abuses, and the abusers should
be punished not more not less than they deserve
from the law of the time. Today, neither we have
real law, nor law imposing officers, nor we have
enough education to make peoples socially aware.
Well, we don't like our own sisters or mothers or
other female relatives be abused, but, what happened
to thinking that other women or girls are someone's
sister and daughter. Meanwhile, we should not forget
that they are themselves an independent human like
males, too. If the peoples from other end
are not sending to our own working place, means they
are not trusting ourselves. We could not trust each
other, and strict law and its enforcement might
help us bring more closer and trust each other, at
least, classify who is good and bad. Now we
self defined good peoples and the bad peoples are put in
the same box. So, we don't know where could we send our
sisters, daughters or mothers safely without any fear
and where coudl be more risk. I find risk is everywhere.
This is the reason descent or weak hearted women fear to join
public and social services.
GP
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| dreed |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 10:47 PM
I think, this is a very nonsense topic. This type of things happen
everywhere in the world. The only difference is some people accept the fact and move on and some people tends to fight back.I don't think there is any need to discuss in detail about when and how this type of things happen. I find this topic rather boring and embarrassing.
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| dumdum |
Posted
on 14-Jul-01 01:25 AM
Dreed. Tell me what is sensical topic then?
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| Sunakhari |
Posted
on 14-Jul-01 10:10 AM
Dreed, Im sorry you think this is a nonsensical topic. Maybe you would like to know more about what goes on in a country where people have been repressed.
My personal opinion is that SEX is such a taboo subject in countries like ours and therefore, driving people to do un-thinkable things.
I am not at all excusing the men and am very aware of what happens in families, streets and public places as I, myself, have been a subject of this many many times. The little gestures, a touch here and a touch there seem to be very common and a lot of us actually look past them. And DREED..why the hell should we move past these incidents and accept them?? Let me ask you a question..are you a female? if yes, have you ever been grabbed at? or if you are a male...have you ever been grabbed at by another male?? You would think that unthinkable..you would probably want to disfigure that person as its demeaning, barbaric and invades your privacy! Well, we, women, feel the same.
There was an incident where this man followed me home behind the royal palace and even came right up to my door and whispered "Tan basney thau pani thaha bhayo malai" while TOUCHING himself!!!
What drives a person to such insanity???? Who would you blame?
AND Chand: Im sure you watch Britney Spears and all these young girls who wear MORE THAN PROVOCATIVE clothes...do you think that any man has a right to touch them?? I THINK NOT!!!!
Then I should be able to go up to ANY man who is wearing shorts and these sando-vests and touch them..How about that...or maybe not me..another MAN. Hope you enjoy these sexual advances.
I, as a woman, feel degraded, belittled and dirty being touched without my permission.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 14-Jul-01 10:58 AM
Pointing out, as Namita does, that there is sexual harassment
because of repressed sexuality is silly. I mean, one can
have all the sex in the world and still be a harasser.
This goes for both men (more!) and women (less!)
And a stroll down a street in, say, Milan or Rome in Italy (to give one example!) should disabuse anyone of the idea that repressed sexuality leads to sexual harassment.
If anything, the wolf-whistlers/cat-callers/gropers/bottom-pinchers there FLAUNT their hyper/over-charged and certainly-not-repressed sexuality . . .
Sexual harassment occurs, I suppose, when one party thinks --to the disagreement/discomfort of the other party -- of the other
party in PURELY sexual/physical terms, and feels justified
in pursuing actions to fulfill its thoughts.
In Nepal, the offended party has little recourse (legal or otherwise) to take actions against the harassers. Most are understandably embarrassed to talk about such harassements, and
sadly suffer in silence, though NGOs such as SAATHI are encouraging women in Nepal to speak up/out against acts of harrassment.
Still, as some enterprising female friends in Nepal
say: Usually, a strategiclly delivered kick or a
blow -- Princess Xena-style --into the groin area of the
harasser has a wonderfully deterrent effect.
Sue, getting physical may not be the solution, but it
certainly remains a solution to combat harassment in
public buses, tempos and so on.
oohi
ashu
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| dreed |
Posted
on 14-Jul-01 05:21 PM
Sunakhari,
It was not my intention to suggest that sexual harrassment should be accepte. We can't also deny the fact that these can of
behavior exist in every society and in most cases the truth never comes out.The important thing is how you take it. Even in your own case, you described that how you were harrassed by a guy near the Royal Palace in Nepal. So, let me ask you a question. How did you react to that guy ? or did you do anything to prevent that kind of behavior from that person or at least try to report the Police ? I guess not. Like I said before, that is totally upto the
person who is being harrassed.It is really simple, if your are being harrassed by someone, whether or not to fight back is your
choice. In a sense, if you are a victim and if you don't report these kind of behaviors to the proper authority then you are equally responsible for encouraging sexual harrassment. Please don't give us " It is really difficult in Nepal...bla..bla " kind of crap. Either you DO or you DON'T, the end of story. Just by posting the messages (with very graphic in nature)here is not going to help. EYE FOR AN EYE
|
| dreed |
Posted
on 14-Jul-01 05:22 PM
Sunakhari,
It was not my intention to suggest that sexual harrassment should be accepte. We can't also deny the fact that these kind of
behavior exist in every society and in most cases the truth never comes out.The important thing is how you take it. Even in your own case, you described that how you were harrassed by a guy near the Royal Palace in Nepal. So, let me ask you a question. How did you react to that guy ? or did you do anything to prevent that kind of behavior from that person or at least try to report the Police ? I guess not. Like I said before, that is totally upto the
person who is being harrassed.It is really simple, if your are being harrassed by someone, whether or not to fight back is your
choice. In a sense, if you are a victim and if you don't report these kind of behaviors to the proper authority then you are equally responsible for encouraging sexual harrassment. Please don't give us " It is really difficult in Nepal...bla..bla " kind of crap. Either you DO or you DON'T, the end of story. Just by posting the messages (with very graphic in nature)here is not going to help. EYE FOR AN EYE
|
| Namita Kiran-Thuene |
Posted
on 15-Jul-01 05:26 PM
Ashu Wrote:
Well, Ashu, I still say there is some relationship between repressed sexuality and pinching, groping in places like Nepal. I would also say maybe it is the hot weather that makes Nepali men bottom pinchers and breast grabber. As I walked past pokhara on my way to Thorong-La, I saw much more males gawkers and cat-callers (no they did not come to pinch me, but I am sure otheres have experienced it.) in Pokhara than in Manang. Pokhara=10 in 50; Managng= none!
I was standing infront of Uffizi admiring David. It was the summer of 1999. Five months pregnant. I felt a pressure on my back. I swinged back ready to hit but guess what I saw? It was Ashu! (no, no just kidding :) )
Seriously, I lived in Germany for a year or so and traveled other parts of Europe. what I did not experience was the kind of harrassment a woman faces everyday in a public places in my beloved matri bhumi Nepal. Yes, they look (gawk) so do I. Especially if they were beautiful. Where did Ashu see what he implied, I wonder. Grenoble? Paris? Florence? Milan? Sienna, Hamburg? London. Where?
Another big factor Why women go through this is shame. Same reason why it happens in Japan so much (read Sunday July 15the NY Times issue)The Ijjat thing. It is women's ijjat that gets lost if she is raped. It is women's ijjat when she cries foul! This kind of harrassment also happens when somebody is made to feel they don't count and they should not have a voice. These are the few reasons why this (sexual harrassment)exists and I stand by my observation/assertion.
Ashu Wrote:
"Pointing out, as Namita does, that there is sexual harassment
because of repressed sexuality is silly. I mean, one can
have all the sex in the world and still be a harasser.
This goes for both men (more!) and women (less!)
And a stroll down a street in, say, Milan or Rome in Italy (to give one example!) should disabuse anyone of the idea that repressed sexuality leads to sexual harassment.
If anything, the wolf-whistlers/cat-callers/gropers/bottom-pinchers there FLAUNT their hyper/over-charged and certainly-not-repressed sexuality . . .
Sexual harassment occurs, I suppose, when one party thinks --to the disagreement/discomfort of the other party -- of the other
party in PURELY sexual/physical terms, and feels justified
in pursuing actions to fulfill its thoughts.
In Nepal, the offended party has little recourse (legal or otherwise) to take actions against the harassers. Most are understandably embarrassed to talk about such harassements, and
sadly suffer in silence, though NGOs such as SAATHI are encouraging women in Nepal to speak up/out against acts of harrassment.
Still, as some enterprising female friends in Nepal
say: Usually, a strategiclly delivered kick or a
blow -- Princess Xena-style --into the groin area of the
harasser has a wonderfully deterrent effect."
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