| Username |
Post |
| GR Bhattarai |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 03:30 PM
With overwhelming majority votes against her rival cities, Beijing has been awarded the honour of hosting 29th Olympics in 2008. Congratulations to China in successful bidding.
With the awarding the honor to host the Olympics in 2008, the country of home to 1.3 billion people in the earth, the whole world will keep on eye for seven years. I hope, this will be a great opportunity for China to clear her up from the allegations against the human rights violations through reform and transparency.
Latest news links:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/in_depth/2001/olympic_votes/newsid_1436000/1436575.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/07/13/beijing.win/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/13/sports/13CHIN.html
Gandhi
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 04:41 PM
In deed.
Btw,vote difference is surprising.
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| Akhilesh |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 06:01 PM
Hey, did the 1936 Berlin Olympics make Germany a better nation? In fact the Berlin Games became a potent propoganda weapon for the Nazis to stoke German chauvanism.
Olympics no doubt will captivate the imagination of, among others, millions of peasants in the Chinese hinterland, and will rally the world's most populus nation behind its team that will give Americans run of their money. I wish the world's fast emerging superpower every success in its endeavor. One soon tires of a unipolar world.
Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, and the East German sporting machine, the US dominance of the international sporting arena has become all too predictable.
But I also sincerely hope Chinese authorities take the IOC sanction as an incentive to improve their human rights record, and give their country a more humane face.
I was much impressed by China's infrastructre when I visited the coutry in 1992 and even wrote an article later supporting China's bid for 2000 Olympics (which ultmately went to Sydney).
But over the years, my reading of China has been colored with increasing suspicion - Tibet, restive peasants, Tiananmen, extreme intoleranance to dissent and so on.
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| GR Bhattarai |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 07:01 PM
Akhileshji,
I don't disagree with your point that the Olympics could not bring any good to Germany in 1936, rather deteriorated the situation. However, I feel the Olympics 2008 will bring positive reforms in China.
China is emerging as the most potential super power to counter US after the downfall of former Soviet Union. We sure cannot weed out the cases of human rights violations in China, including the Tienmen Squres, death penalty and so on. However, it is also not as we expect in US. Timothy McVeigh was sentenced to death by lethal injection in US prison only last month.
For a long time, China as a communist country, has remained in isolation. The country is trying to be more liberal and open in the recent days. China is trying to get entry to the WTO. Countries like US and some other developed countries, who spend larger portion of federal budget in farm programs fear the competition from China.
China seemed to know lessons from the past. By opening the market between China and the rest of the world, she can play a major role in world trade and commerce. We often deal with the small country and big country cases in economics, hoina ra?
China wants to be the economic super power to counter US, which is possible only by keeping rest of the world in confidence. For this, China needs to be more accessible, transparent and reformative. Olympics 2008 is the best opportunity for China to show these all.
Gandhi
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| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 13-Jul-01 11:53 PM
Hi all,
I think the IOC made a very good decision to let China host the Olympics.
I know there have been human rights and what not issues but before we go on and criticize China for HR abuse, we have understand one thing: That whoever wrote the Universal Declaration of Human rights, did not think about the cultural differences that exist in the world. What works in the US and Europe does not necessarily Nepal and China. So, in my opinion the concept of human rights varies from country to country.
Trailokya
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| Akhilesh |
Posted
on 14-Jul-01 02:01 AM
Thank goodness, whoever wrote the Universal Declaration of Human Rights didn't bother to get into cultural differences. Or else he/she would have never completed one, or ended up producing a document that would have been toothless.
Coutries such as China, Indonesia and Iran have long taken refuge to "cultural differences" to defend their poor human rights record. (To a manipulative King Mahendra, for eg, Panchayat became a nepalko mato suhaooda prajatantra that needed no political parties!).
The beauty of having universal human rights standard is that it treats all the states equally, regardless of "cultural differences". This, I believe, is fundamental in establishing human rights all over the world, without getting bullied by the state(s).
Trailokya, our views on this are different. What do others say - Biswo? Like T., you seem to have spent some time in China and it would be interesting to hear from you.
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| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 14-Jul-01 02:18 AM
Akhilesh JYU,
What makes you think that China has a terrible record of Human Rights abuse (s)?
China is portrayed badly in the west, just because of its political ideaology. I wonder how many of those China-bashers know about China, or have actually gone to China.
It is true that China did commit some horrible mistakes in the past, but the present day China is very VERY different. True, you cannot buy Playboy or other western porno magazines (if reading porno mags falls under Human Rights) or smoke hash (if smoking hash falls under human rights) but, you can practice your religion FREELY. The CCP governmnet has started a movemnet to revive the religion/spirituality in China, and a very good example is the restoration of monastaries in Putuo Shan. Plus, the CCP, which once considered religion as a the opium of the masses has started to put the local gods in its propoganda posters. And how can we forget that the Chinese governemnt too has a Stupa in Lumbini's international park (or whatever that is).
Plus, its also not-very-true that the Chinese can't FREELy criticize the governmnet. They can and the chinese people have started posting constructive citicism of the government on the People's Daily website. Furthermore, Zhu Rongji has requested the media to be more critical of the government so that the governmnet knows where/what to correct things.
Fine Akhilesh, go on with your anti-China sentiments, I am not here to defend China and I admit our views are different. But, before you go on saying how-terrible-China is, look at other countries too. For example, Singapore. Atleast in China, people can chew gums. And always cross-check your sources, don't always believe in what you seen in print.
Trailokya
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| A Nepali |
Posted
on 14-Jul-01 02:19 AM
Gandhi jee,
did you ever read any positive article written by
Akhilesh Upadhyaya in The Kathmandu Post or else where.
He is just another so called Nepali intellectual
writer from the gang of Kantipur Publication, who
write things mostly in sarcastic manner or negatively.
Its probably his method of seeking positive changes
by writing all the way negative parts.
Good Luck Akhilesh jee. You can continue your
negative articles in KTM and gbnc.org. We
are forced to read them.
Fellow Nepali
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 14-Jul-01 02:42 AM
I do believe that there are basic human right principles that
applies to all nations universally, and thus the notion of
universal human right concepts is very much respectable. Thus,
I have to disagree with Trailokya in that 'cultural issues'
do allow a nation to grant less right to its citizens, where
as retaining more restricting rights in the hand of the state,ie
tyrants.
Chinese people are hardworking, and need more human right, there
is no doubt. But, the travesty of human right displayed by a lot
of western nations doesn't provide them any rights to dictate
any terms in dealing with China. China's human right condition
was worst in its monarchy, equally worse in Kuomintang period,
and has been improving consistently since Deng's days.Just like in
Nepal of post 2046, where those who supports current constitution
are given right to speak 'freely' but those who are against this
constitution are treated harshly [right from the day of 2047
Kartik 23(As a fellow journalist, Akhileshji must remember the
arrest of Nimkant Pandey of Yojana on that day)], China is now
administering same kind of freedom.Those who abide by constitution
are given freedom, but those who doesn't are treated harshly.
Also, Akhileshji, I have something to dissent with you regarding
your previous posting where you equated Beijing Olympics as Berlin
Olympics. That is shocking comparison. Communist Party of China is
a party of the allied force that defeated Hitler, the ultimate
evil of last century. There was no GENOCIDE in any part of the
China in its post 1949 days.Xinjiang's Moslem students were given
freedom to practice their religion even in Mao's days. There were
'sacred restaurants' in universities for the Moslem students who
didn't eat pork(main food of Chinese is pork). Opponents often
say there is this kind of tyranny,that kind of tyranny in Tibet,
but that is political in its nature.Not racial. Being a victim of
colonialists for centuries, Chinese leadership has always voiced
its opposition of colonial power of the world.I think when we
criticize all communist countries for their lack of respect for
human right principles, we should refrain from suppresing the
facts.Even when inveighing their miserable treatement of individuals in those countries, we shouldn't forget
that they fought along with the civilized nations of the world to
defeat Hitler, and thus they can't be compared to Hitler/Nazis.
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| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 14-Jul-01 03:06 AM
Biswoji,
Every human action is motivated by the culture. So, culture does play an important part in any country's running. I admit religious freedom is an universal thing, but, has China violated that? I don't think so. I remember this great quote by some russian radio journalist, "Its not hard to predict the future, the only problem is that the past keeps on changing". As far as I see, the Chinese past keeps on Changing according to the western needs. When they need China, China is a good country with a glorious imperial past, but, when they don't need China, China is demonized for everything ranging from the Qin Dynasty!
Press Freedom works in the west (but we all know how free the Free World's press is), but not in China. If China lets journalists publish whatever they want to, then imagine money flowiung from the west to publish propoganda messages against the CCP! I admit things aren't very good by the western standards, but, if we go by the Chinese standards, things are pretty good now, than the past.
I was also wondering why people who go on criticizing China for its human rights abuses did not say anything about Japan's war crimes (Osaka was also bidding for the olympics). I guess, those who are considered allies of the west, can even change/foregt their past, but countries like China who decide to stay independent (without anybody's influence) has to pay the price of their past mistakes.
Regarding Tibet, again, Tibet wasn't the only place where the monastries/temples were destroyed. It was all over China. About Tiananmen, I admit that the governmnet headed by Li peng was responsible but what about the radical student leaders like Cai Ling? Has anyone watched Carma Hinton's The Gate of Heavenly Peace? In that documentary, there's an interview of Cai Ling just before the bloodbath and anorther interview after she fled to the US. And it is very interesting to see and hear how she denies her responsibility for the incident.
People who talk about Nazi/Hitler don't even know about the nanjing massacre, why is that? Just because Japan is an economic giant and an ally of the major world powers.
Trailokya
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 14-Jul-01 10:23 AM
Trailokya,
I am happy to note that you will be in Kathmandu in about
six months. Look forward to discussing Chinese verbs with
you :-)
And, yes, you are right: Biswo Bhasa Campus, a faculty within
TU, does offer an undersubscribed course on Newari. BBS is also
the most profitable of TU campuses: Non-Nepali citizens
pay about $600/each per semester to study Nepali. For Nepalis,
Rs. 1000 is enough to study Chinese (taught by a
native Chinese) for an ENTIRE semester.
That campus's language lab, set up by the Japanese, is very
good.
Meantime, getting back to the idea of universal human
rights (an enormously interesting topic for those ofwith an interest in international relations and so on), may I
recommend a book that has influenced much of my thinking?
It's "Law of Peoples" by John Rawls,
a well-known philosopher.
Rawls's stance is that of a political liberal, and in the book, Rawls extends his social contract theory to understand justice as faness in liberal and illibral societies.
More later.
I find China to be an immensely fascinating country.
So much so that these days, in Kathmandu's book=stores,
all I see is China (in one way or another) on cover of Time, Newsweek, The Economist, AsiaWeek, Far Eastern Economic REview and more. No doubt, we Nepalis have to understand China better
in coming years.
oohi
ashu
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| GR Bhattarai |
Posted
on 14-Jul-01 07:19 PM
As I mentioned earlier, China can be an economic super power if she can have good reputation among fellow countries. The cycles of products in China, from simple toys to the big electronics and so on show that China's human capital is increased, and so does the capital for investement. If China is given free entry to the world market, without any trade barriers, we can guess how it would affect the world market. To give an example, when China's pig production increased in early 60's, it demanded more corn to feed the livestock. Changing China's position from net exporter to net importer of corn caused the world corn price rise significantly. Technology base in China is also increased. As a socialist economy, government has much resources in its disposal, giving more opportunity for huge investment and keep the per unit costs low.
Can any western countries bar a soverien country from its own development effort? No. Then how they keep China from being the super power? Portray China as a big bad guy - human rights violator. Is China really that bad? Do these western powers have vigilance over each and every country about their functioning on human rights? Did these advocates of human rights ever uttered any word to out-throw Panchayat system in Nepal before her own citizens did it? I think not. (I DON'T KNOW THE HISTORY, MY PERCEPTION COULD BE WRONG). So why only China to be blamed? And now awarding the Beijing an honor to host Olympics is compared with Hitlers' Germany or Leonid Brezhnev's Soviet Union. PRATIDWANDI LAI TAUKAI UTHAUNA NADINU, isn't it the philosophy?
Do you ever guess the share of trade between China and US? Do you ever guess how excited US is to improve trade relations with China? US is trying to give China a status of Permanent Normal Trade Relations, to get, in return, its IT market expanded in China. See how a good guy and bad guy are having a deal.
It is true that China is lagging behind in Human Rights situations at a global standard. Should China be always damned for it or should she be given opportunity to improve the situation? I think it is always better to give opportunity to improve. IOC has very good job done to award China host the 2008 Olympics in Beijing. I hope China will very effectively capitalize this opportunity for her best image.
Gandhi
P.S. If intersted, please visit following links:
http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/ea/uschina/helms713.htm
http://www.state.gov/www/regions/eap/fs_us_china_relations.html
http://www.house.gov/dooley/msg5-2-00.html
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 15-Jul-01 01:36 AM
Dear Trailokyaji:
My point is not that China is not allowing religious freedom. The
China we saw was in deed a benevolent state, that rarely
interfered in individuals right. Falun Gong is a cult, and it
is suicide-provoking cult, based on sham adaptation of qigong
and Buddhism. A state is free to save its citizen from the effect
of such cult.
However, as for universal manifestation of human right, I believe
that there are such rights that can be applied to all human being.
Right of a person's to speak freely without harming other's right
to do so is applicable everywhere, so is a person's right to
participate in the affair of state.
I think it is wise for all of us to recognize the problems of
contemporary China. After all, no country is perfect. USA
provided voting rights to women and blacks only recently. Churches
were separate here until 90s(comparable to untouchables and temple
in Nepal?), women were not allowed in a lot of universities
(Hillary was , I heard, among the first ladies to be enrolled in
Yale!), and last year one university in South Carolina was in
news because it banned interracial dating. Racial issues are
major problems in Germany and UK also. Big countries all have
problems. So, why should China be singled out? Just because she
practices separate kind of political system and is not giving
in to western countries'demands?
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| Kiran Sitoula |
Posted
on 15-Jul-01 09:38 AM
I lived with Uncle Cai (Baigen Cai) from China, for a year in Columbus, OHIO. He came as a reserach fellow for a year at Ohio State University. He lives in Beijing. His version of Chinese Freedom is that, it's a free country if you abide by the Chinese Red Code, not so free if you ignoring them and you'll be in "gulag" if you start questioning them. I asked him what will happen to his family if he doesnot return. He said, first of all he will lose his subsidized housing, then plugs will be pulled in his childs education and wifes job, then he did not elaborate further. So looks like China is free as long as you are aligning yourself with the Communist ideology (or whatever is left of it). However I've always been fascinated by that country. Starting this year, with the help of SEBS, Budhanilkantha School is starting Chinese Language Classes at grade 7, 8 level (taught by Professors from Bhiswa Bhasa Campus). Japanese, Spanish and French to follow in coming years.
Kiran Sitoula
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| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 15-Jul-01 05:57 PM
Dear Kiran Jyu,
One thing you have to understand is, when people narrate their story, they tend to exxagerate. Things aren't that bad in China, to experience this, you have to go and live in China.
But, your Uncle Cai is right. If he overstays, he won't enjoy all the benifits that are provided to him and his family by the Chinese governmnet. The Chinese governmnent provides its citizens subsidized education so that they can help in Chinese development. Obviously, if someone flees China, then the governmnet has to get the MONEY that it spent on that individual. And I don't think its bad or it infriges upon somebody's human rights.
Plus, its not right that you have to abide by the CCP's codes. Atleast I didn't meet anyone in China who said that, so I don't know what Uncle Cai was talking about.
And it certainly is a good news that BNKS will be offering Chinese. I sincerely hope that other schools in Nepal will follow the suit and offer foreign languages.
Trailokya
PS-Ashu dai, it will be fun to discuss Chinese verbs with you, when I get back. Seems like I'll be there for 10-12 days this August.
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| the real ashu |
Posted
on 16-Jul-01 02:43 AM
Hi Kiran,
I am delighted to learn that Budhanilkantha School will be offering Chinese language classes. That is great.
As China surges ahead in coming years to become more and more of a superpower, we will need more and more Nepalis in and out of Nepal who understand China enough to make China all the more
advantageous (in terms of foreign policies, trade, commerce
and so on) for Nepal.
And teaching Chinese language to young people is one good way
investing on the preparations of future leaders.
Trailokya, I thought you were coming to Nepal "in six months" (i.e. in the Fall!). For much of August and September, I shall
be away from Nepal.
oohi
ashu
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| daraj-vitra |
Posted
on 16-Jul-01 01:02 PM
Converse ??? Practice them verbs!!!!HHhhmmmmm!!!! Whats going on ?? A paradise togather in china ????
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 17-Jul-01 12:42 AM
Ashu:
>It's "Law of Peoples" by John Rawls, a well-known philosopher.
> Rawls's stance is that of a political liberal, and in the book,
> Rawls extends his social contract theory to understand justice
> as faness in liberal and illibral societies.
> More later.
I am interested in the book you wrote. Can you give me(us) general
idea about the book and its content?
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