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| Username | Post |
| Rosie | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 12:51 PM
Do you guys belive in God? Being a girl raised in a Hindu family, I always pictured myself being watched over by God. I have gotten most of the things that I have wished for throughout my life. All my prayers have ultimately been answered and I have been eternally grateful for all the wonderful blessings in my life. However, lately I have started to doubt the existence of that supernatural power that is taking care of us, that is looking over us and constantly guiding us. My faith has been shaken because lately, things haven't gone the way I wanted and there doesn't seem much hope for the future either. I know that my faith shouldn't be that fragile as to get crushed just because some of my wishes are not granted, but I can't help it. |
| ltrw | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 01:22 PM
My feelings tend to go along with the phrase that Lennon one said : " God is a concept by which we measure our pain." |
| oys_chill | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 01:26 PM
I remember...perhaps I was in Grade 2, I was the sole student in my class who defied the existence of God, and that led to severe consequences, as the teacher humiliated me infront of the whole class. I felt like I was being forced into believing something rather than my choice of faith. However, everytime exams grew near or I was due for a swimming class ;) I prayed to god .....eheh! Over time, I realized one thing: there is God, and its within all of us:) but I cannot advocate for a separate supernatural power watching over us. Just imagine for a second, how empty life would seem, if WE WERE TOLD THE ABSOLUTE truth that there was no supernatural power at all besides us. Its more to do with a person's psyche, and its natural to be grateful to supernatural when things are going well and defy its existence when things go the other way. Placebo effect to its fullest. But I believe there's no harm in believing or not believing in the supernatural as long as it helps you to become successful :) iti. |
| ronx | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 02:52 PM
"After a man died, the almight was taking him through his life, the footprints on his sand of times. There were two footprints at all times, which the almighty explained to belong to the man and the almighty. But at one stage of his life, there were only one footprint, and the man asked the almighty,"Almighty, which was that stage of my life?" and the almighty replies, "That my child, was the hardest phase of your life". To which the man says," And you left me when I needed you the most". The almighty smiles, and replies,"No my son, that was when I carried you in my arms." I am not one of those guys, who believe in God. I have been on and off those beliefs, but even when I did not believe him, we used to talk about someone up there, who have very good sense of humor. May be Rosie, he is one of those moods. :-) |
| VincentBodega | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 03:26 PM
Rosie, Your interpretation of God reminds me of a Jim Carey movie Bruce Almighty. :) Keep reflecting... thats the right way (I think). |
| Biruwa | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 03:32 PM
Yes, there definitely is GOD- specially hindu god. Why not Christian or Muslim god you ask? Because hindu gods are known to fault at times and give in to humane characteristics at time. Untimately, the ultimate Brahman takes over to restore balance. Christian, muslim gods need to be perfect. Seriously, whatever happens in our life is our own doing. Most of the time in this life and sometimes from the past. There is no escaping our own karma. |
| VincentBodega | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 03:46 PM
>>Because hindu gods are known to fault at times and give in to humane characteristics >>at time. May be I am getting it wrong here, but doesnt your logic say the reverse of what you claim. If Gods err then whats the godliness in them? Gods are supposed to be flawless. At least thats the kinda perception I have of Gods. |
| Biruwa | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 03:49 PM
;) Please correct typos above. I wanted to add this as well-> Do the work, leave the rest to god. Remember the outcome is never in your hands. When you do your job, god will look after you from above! ;) sooner or later |
| Biruwa | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 03:53 PM
Vincent ji, Hindu gods are exempt from that criteria. We have been fed so much fanciful ideas and theories from the west that even our eastern eyes sometimes falter. Also sorry for the typo, the sentence is actually: Because hindu gods are known to fault at times and give in to humane characteristics at times. |
| VincentBodega | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 04:13 PM
So Biruwaji, If Gods err and I err... why dont I set up my own statue and worship it? Whats the difference? |
| sweetP | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 04:16 PM
I believe in God even though there are times I have doubted. I think religion was created in order to group people for social reasons. All religions direct to the same God with different names. God is also inside of you which makes sense to say that God is actually your inner conscience, and you close your eyes to see inside when you pray. When you don't do your part, then you can't blame God, as they say, God only helps those who help themselves. There is no discrete ideas about God that I have, but it is very complex. In this complexity lies the faith, the belief and the unknown. |
| Biruwa | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 04:32 PM
Vincent ji, We too are parts of god. When we realize that the universe is one then yes we realize too that we are god. But don't be in a hurry.;) According to Sanatan Dharma, this world is a maya where we see duality and differentiation. But everything and everybody are parts of god. What we see as faults are in actuality just our views, so say books from the great eastern sages :) In the beginning there was god...... ( http://www.cinemashares.com/shortfilms.html ) |
| Biruwa | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 04:34 PM
Scroll down the website to find. Hymns From The Vedas: Creation |
| rajendrarajbansh | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 06:01 PM
God, How do you picture the god?.... We believe that god is all good and all powerfull, don't we?...If god is all good and powerfull, then why is there a existance of evil....if he/she is all good and has a power to do what ever he wants then, why is there so much pain in the world today...Is it that god don't care about human being no more or is it that, he don't have power to heal those pain.....If god wanted all good and he has a power to do so...Imagine how the world be right now......Too bad there is nothing called GOD!!!!! |
| Rosie | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 06:05 PM
Loved reading all of your comments. Yea, I guess God is really inside of us and God helps those who help themselves...however, don't all of these things sound so convenient and self-serving? If God created all the world and all of us, why isn't he taking care of us? Why all the war and famine? And if someone tells me that its because God is testing us or because God gives us all the free agency to make our own decisions, I think its BS...Lets take the example of a mother. If she sees her child trying to jump off a cliff, will she stop the child or let him/her exercise their free agency? If God is supposed to be like our Father/Mother, why doesn't God take care of us through every step of our way? Biruwa, I agree with you in that our perception of God has been very much influenced by Western religions; viz., christianity. God being perfection and never making any mistakes or participating in anything human is an important part of the Christian belief. Hindu gods like the Egyptian gods or the Mesopotamian gods make mistakes, and are still gods. They indulge themselves in human activities like eating and having sex. The gluttonous god, Ganesh is an example. The idea of having a god that gorges himself with food or of a god/goddess of sex would be unimaginable for a Catholic christian. |
| kingkong | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 06:40 PM
tell u waht i was in high school together with jesus. he was kinda shy.now i interpret his behaviour and guess what..... he turned out to be a queer. i have nothing against being a queer but this bush who is so much against queers and abortion always tries to justify his move taking that same queers name and that reminds me of muhammad. nice guy. met him during my 10th life during early part of 7 th century ad. he was fun to get drunk with but he was a pedophile so i really didnt like being around him during days as he would be hitting on every little girl on the side walk. cradle robber he was and during that time it seemed ok but i always had that vibe that he was somewhat into boys too. i am not sure about that though. abd krishna ko ta k kura garne ...............aids lagera marne bela ma maile nai uslai treat gareko. teti bela ahile jasto cock tail haru thiyena tesaile u marna paryo tara moj chai gareko ho ba tesle. these all people existed at different time in history and i witnessed it all so my verdict is if u think they are god than god existed not EXISTS. THEY ARE ALL DEAAAAAAAAAAD |
| ru | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 06:44 PM
God, for me, is the "Father of Unknowns"...when I was a kid I used to think aeroplanes were God: now my friends fly them. Even now though, once in a while, I come across a puzzle, frustration, desperation, elation, etc. that I cannot reason out..and I say it was God. In line with what most of you have said, God is the "third eye", that pries on me when I am in the wrong, lauds me when I do good, guides me when I am confused, saves me when I am doomed....that is If I have done my duty: to believe in what I do and to do what I believe in. In short, God is an illusion, constructed in convulated tautologies, but hey! it works...It brings out the best in me. mero dui paisa. |
| SITARA | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 06:55 PM
For me "God" is the universal energy that we all (living and non living beings) share. I believe that everything has a time and a place and forcing things to happen the way we want it to, then and there will cause pain and suffering. No! I am not a fatalist. One thing I have learned from life is to be open to grace; revel in the good things in life and from the "bad" things, learn flexibility, adaptability and patience. Throw out the negative sentiments of hurt, abandonment and disappointments and create space for positive energy. De-clutter your physical and mental space. Keep a neutral space in your heart in "your" mind which you can access for brief respite; a place, where you don't think, judge, and/or aspire to be...; a place of calmness and tranquility; that space is "my/your" temple ! Note: "Your", "my" are generic terms. |
| buddu | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 07:36 PM
To me, there is no God as a physical person. But there is a God as some form of energy. When you pray, it is answered depending upon how much that energy you can tap. Also one can experience Godliness and that moment he/she is a God. |
| VincentBodega | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 08:42 PM
>>If God created all the world and all of us, why isn't he taking care of us? Why all the war and famine? And if someone tells me that its because God is testing us or because God gives us all the free agency to make our own decisions, I think its BS...Lets take the example of a mother. If she sees her child trying to jump off a cliff, will she stop the child or let him/her exercise their free agency? If God is supposed to be like our Father/Mother, why doesn't God take care of us through every step of our way?>> Well Rosie, Its like this. I read somewhere when I was in college that God cant make people do anything. God believes in freewill and therefore he lets everyone practise it. Its for that reason he cant clean the mess that we are in. It makes sense to me if he was taking care of everything and even deciding for us then why are we here? it would be like a school where the profs. make the exams and they take them for us too. That would be redundant wont it now? |
| ltrw | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 08:44 PM
We can observe a simple trendregarding religion: First there was Polytheism -> then Monotheism -> and then the concept of atheism started or rather was there all the time but is just gettin stronger now-> after that who know! well anyways, my point is that "Gods are dying!" and they can't stop it! |
| VincentBodega | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 08:49 PM
Sitaraji, Do you realize that your goals for life are unachievable??? You will be a machine if you can achieve half the things you wish to achieve in life. :) Again keep reflecting... thats the best way to go (I think). |
| justme | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 09:06 PM
http://www.alexgrey.com/ check it out, his art says alot. |
| confused | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 09:08 PM
i dont know if god exists...but i do know there is some kind of beings bigger than us watching for us..Imagine what we are doing?? we are doing nothing but working when we look at ourselves..we are forced to work one way or another..and the dreams we tend to acheive in our lives are actually our "work" which was already been set up for us before we were born..lol sounds a lot like matrix but i think its true when i think abt it..think abt those little cells can they ever see human???no right..but they are living things too arent they?? they also might have their own world and dream within their frame of mind but we already know what they are suppose to do..we might be god to them..so there might be other beings grreateer than us that we are thinking god.. in the other hand..i never study for test and always pray to god to pass me out..and sometimes he does listen to it..lol i dont know..is that miracle??? i think its upon an individual to beilive in god we arent here to say he exists or not.. |
| chipledhunga | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 09:50 PM
Rosie, first of all thank you for starting such an interesting thread. I must admit that my belief in God fluctuates between being an atheist to a fairly religious person. I often feel that religious practices themselves are very unethical. Aren't praying, worshipping, and the use of offerings equivalent to modern day "chaakadi" and bribery? For example, we offer laddus to Ganesh. Isn't that bribing God to fullfil our vested interests? What about sacrificing animals as offerings? Aren't we taking inncocent lives, once again, to fulfill our vested interests? If you really want to eat meat, just go to the butcher shop and buy your favorite chicken, rango whatever instead of killing them in the name of God. I know such practices followed only long after the evolution of religions themselves, but then let's again consider this: If God were to make the world "good", why are there so many "bad" things? What is God doing when there is so much suffering in this world? Shouldn't the so called supernatural power have prevented all the "bad" things from happening? Instead of punishing the "bad" person, shouldn't the "bad" person, or at least the "badness" in him/her have never existed? Now let's realistically look at our own beloved Nepal, which is the only official Hindu kingdom in the world, and also known as the land of 330 million gods. If so, why did the poverty, corruption, and most recently the Maoist insurgency ever come to existence? Blame it on "sati ko saraap", but what are the tettis koti deutas doing when the situation is deteriorating day by day? If it was really the "sati ko saraap" then why couldn't they use their supernatural power to "undo" the curse, or at least minimize its effect? Even the proverb "too many cooks spoil the broth" does not seem to hold here. Let's say the population was 10 million, there were 33 gods per person, and that ratio has declined by more than half as our population has reached around 25 million. Shouldn't the situation have improved as the population increased? Is Shiva high on weed all the time without realising what happened? Is Krishna busy with his Gopinis, is Ganesh busy devouring laddus, is Indra busy foling others' tapasyas to save his "kursi" and stealing others wives? Yestai yestai kura haru bichar garda, I really see no point in believing on God. At the same time, I must admit that there are many instances that make me believe that God does indeed exist. If I make a mistake or see that I am going to be in trouble due to my own fault, then I pray to God to save me. If I am "saved" then I thank God for saving me. If my steps lead me to a favorable outcome, then once again I thank God for leading me in the correct direction. If I don't then I tend to believe that God gave me what I deserved. At the same time I wonder if God really existed, why wasn't I saved from making such mistakes and then be "punished"? Lau yestai yestai hun mera bichar haru. |
| oys_chill | Posted
on 16-Nov-03 09:56 PM
Is Shiva high on weed all the time without realising what happened? Is Krishna busy with his Gopinis, is Ganesh busy devouring laddus, is Indra busy foling others' tapasyas to save his "kursi" and stealing others wives? Very interesting view chipledhunga dai.....maybe, just maybe, they are taking us as "DUDH BHAT" ni ;) |
| Gokul | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 06:21 AM
Before answering this question (Believe in God?), we must be clear (1) What do we mean by god? (2) What it means to believe? Everything depends on how we define them. Once we have our own definition, then the next important question could be Does the quality of your life improve by believing/not believing in god? This brings us to the concept of quality. What is Quality? So the God is linked with Quality. From the second perspective, if you relate god with the concept of creator/creation, then it is very likely that God is neither matter, nor energy but a process. Last week, I had an opportunity to listen to Stuart Kauffman who discussed the concept of auto-catalytic systems from the perspective of general biology. He showed that auto-catalytic systems can reproduce and find strategies to survive. He calls it the physical definition of life. When we call god omnipotent and omniscient, we have to understand that these are just poetries which do not necessarily have rational basis. In fact, nothing can be omnipotent from the point of pure logic. If God is omnipotent (all powerful), then can he create a stone so heavy that nobody can move? If he can, then he is not omnipotent. If he can't then also he is not omnipotent. So, we have to understand that all religious textbooks are poetry and Not science. Then the next question is: (1) Do we need poetry? or Is science everything? (2) Is there anything that Science does not know but poetry knows? This brings us to the very profound question: what is knowledge? or more precisely, what is true knowledge? To summarize: Some questions are impossible, some questions are useless, and some questions are useful. This is more true when we talk about god. So I suggest the following algorithm. (a) Define your god. (b) Define what you want out of your life. (c) Does the concept in (a) help your goals as stated in section (b)? (d) If NO, then modify (a) or (b). Repeat the process. If YES, You've GOT IT! Get out of the loop, you son of a Buddha !! |
| ou812 | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 08:13 AM
Continuation of Oys_chill musing, What will Jesus Christ do if a wayward deciple should chose to pass wind in his presence? What is the secret of Bhagwan Rajneesh success (Fleet of Rolls Royce)? How did Lord Buddha manage to style his hair like Custard apple? |
| prawin | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 09:02 AM
Siddartha's hair kept geting into his eyes while he was meditating, and that distracted him. so he willed his hair to curl into itself. |
| prawin | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 09:06 AM
to Sitara: i've never heard a phrase so vague as "universal energy that we all (living and non-living) share." also, nothing as antithetical as: "I believe that everything has a time and a place and forcing things to happen the way we want it to, then and there will cause pain and suffering. No! I am not a fatalist." but that's the fun in watching people try to explain god to themselves. people who believe in god come up with more ridiculous explanation of every thing than a radical communist outfit. they are both equally ridiculous. but of course, Sitaraji, i am not calling you ridiculous. :D |
| SITARA | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 09:12 AM
Yep Prawin ji: Exactly, my definition of "God" is not tailor-made for you, unfortunately; you will just have to find your own definition and meaning to your own existence! Sorry! And if you don't know about the "universal energies", hai hai; it's ok, sometimes we miss much and other times, we retain little! :) |
| SITARA | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 09:23 AM
Vincent Bodega ji: That is why I keep my goals to the minimum! When they do get realized, I am pleasantly surprised! hehe! |
| ugly duckling | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 09:31 AM
Something striked me from the above discussion above "hindu gods make mistake whereas christian god or muslim god is perfect." I don't think there is a difference between hindu gods or muslim gods for christian gods. Hinduism started thousands of years ago. At that time, people could not comphrehend something abstract like God. So, we were taught to appreciate for everything in our life. earth, sun, moom, grain, water and more -each of these components are given differnt forms of gods. But, if you pay more attention, all these gods are governed by another major God -Bishnu. In the stories, we can observe that the minor gods make mistakes. but, all these mistakes are corrected by the God. As the time passed by, human beings were able to realized facts about lives. As history indicates, christanity and islam came about much later. By then, people were sensible enough, and it was not necessary to have several gods. In any case, God is infallible. Then comes the question about why we have to go through pain, unhappines. We have freedom of making choices. It all depends on the path we choose that will point to our destination. Chiple... "bribing God"... I am not sure whether ganesh would be happy with it, however, rats in the temple would be really pleased with you. |
| khimu | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 09:35 AM
Belive in God? i don't know, many time i asked to god to give me something but he/she never gave me anything, so i decide not to border god anymore. Why to border you know, i am in my own world. Somtimes i do stupid thing if he is watching me, if he wants to funish me i am ready. god, god, god, all over the world but i do belive in "SHREE KRISHNA BHAGAWAN" way to go God, you got millions ofmillions of fan. peace of mind khimu |
| Hawaldaar_Kattu | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 09:44 AM
Some books say God has 8 hands ,some book say god has three heads ,some say god has 4 hands ,some say god has 10 heads ,some say god has 5 hands and rest say god is invisible .WHAT NONSENSE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They say god lives up there in the sky and i see nothing but blank space of nothingness . I DONT BELIEVE IN GOD AT ALL . If God exist let him strike me to death right now . Yes right now . good bye to you all Hawaldaar Kattu |
| Hawaldaar_Kattu | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 09:46 AM
Ooouuch !!!! Hey wait a minute ,I think God exists . As soon as I asked him to strike me to death right away ,my balls started paining so hard . LOL HK |
| ghamandi | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 02:42 PM
I don't believe in God at all because I never saw one. That does not mean I am an atheist. I noticed that we all are like sheep - follow someone without own experience. When we pray for something - there are only two possibilities, either we get or not. We are fooled that there is God when we get. If we don't get, we doublt about God. In life, we all know there are good and bad times in each one's life. So, when we are happy i.e, when we get what we wish, there is God and then other time we doubt. We must try to find ourselves and should not believe what others say. As for me, even if all the people of this earth may say Yes, I say No since that's what my own experience is and that is the truth for me. If I ever meet a God, I'll post the email address or website, phone number, fax number and help those who want to meet GOD. |
| peda | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 03:12 PM
It is natural for all educated and inquisitive minds to ask questions re existence of God. I believe it is a process of evolution and all of us will come to our own conclusions. I will share a part of life-history of Swami Bibekananda. He was a 'Narendra' and asked same questions re existence of God to his teachers and all so called knowledgable ones. Then oneday he came across a saint who claimed that he could show God to Narendra. Narendra worked with him for 6 yrs and became Bibekananda. He propagated the concept of God being in every human being and emphasized the concept of service as a way of gaining spirituality. He never said others were wrong e.g. he is recorded as advising Christians to follow the teaching of Christ properly to attain spirituality. Now what we, as ordinary people, gain out of this service? We usually worship God to gain something either in this life or in afterlife. There is no right or wrong answer here but the important fact is the realisation that everything we have in this life is temporary and easily destroyed. Think of the things you did a month ago- do they appear real? How different are they from your other dreams? "Lord Krishna declares that the purpose of life for every one is the attainment of perfection, and to evolve oneself to it one must make use of every little chance in one's alloted span of life.To endure meekly, with magnanimous joy, the little pin-pricks of life- heat and cold, success and failure, pain and joy- is the highest training that life can provide to all of us. Lord Krishna's doctrine of life is, on the whole, a message of cheer and joy, and an insistence upon, " to weep is folly and to smile is wisdom." Geeta People need not believe in Lord Krishna but Geeta is a fantastic book on how one should live his/her life. |
| peda | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 03:17 PM
Correction: In the 3rd paragraph: pls read as We usually worship God to gain something in this life or after life, but is this the right way to live our life? |
| Soma | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 06:30 PM
Rosie, bad things happen so we are able to learn lessons from our lives and better ourselves. The strength and wisdom for every possibility exists in us (as God has made us in his image), it is simply up to us to find it. We have the gift of freewill and therefore we have choices, it is up to us to grow and make our decisions and actions count. Nepal is in the state it is because its citizens believe that if they only offer laddus and other meaningless sacrifices everything will be solved. The thought “I am not living the life I should, I am acting improperly,” seems foreign in our culture. People seen generally guided by their greed and selfishness. I remember my last trip to Pasupati Nath, I had just gotten to the front of the crowd, and was in direct contact with the altar. I just had enough time to fold my hands before some moti pushed me out of her way. I was appalled to see this selfish conduct in the presence of God. If we remembered that we are in front of God always we would surely be better off. God is not appeased through our prayers, but visible changes we make in ourselves, changes where we feel we are lacking. It is in our hands to make the most of the lives and world which we have been given. |
| prawin | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 07:03 PM
Sitaraji-- i guess there remains nothing to argue about, since i believe neither in God, nor in the concept of a Soul. it is when one believes in God and Soul that life demands a definition, and explanation. i don't question my existence, and frankly, i think it is a load of intellectual garbage to look for a reason or explanation for life. about the "energies" of the universe--my thoughts exactly! how much we miss out on the obvious, and what enormous loads of crap we willingly carry over our heads. if there is anything worthy of admiration, it must be the human capacity for voluntary delusion. perhaps it is more so in the case of the female of the species, but i have no authority to speak of that. i like Rahul Sankrityayan's explanation for the Soul, and his isn't the first of its kind--the Egyptian priests are credited by some accounts to be the creators of the myth called the human soul. it is inconsequential if this particular claim is factually wrong--it isn't difficult to see that it is a tool of human creation. how hollow an individual who needs an invisible and fabricated God to base morality upon! |
| SITARA | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 07:22 PM
Prawin ji: Were we even arguing? Alas, I was not aware of that or I would have done my utmost to impress, inspire and engage you with my ridiculous, female oriented, beliefs. Amazingly, despite your factual protests of basing morality on hollow human tendencies, do you not notice that our (yours and mine) so-called beliefs and disbeliefs are two sides of the same coin? Unless, someone comes along with evidence to disprove that your skepticism is not your belief. :) |
| Rosie | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 07:52 PM
Soma, It was really soothing reading your post. I agree with you about how we can be so selfish and incosiderate to others in the pursuit of God that it defeats the entire purpose of praying or being faithful to God. I hope I can learn from my mistakes/the situation that I am in and face life with more optimism. Sitara, True...there is a right place and time for everything and forcing things to happen the way you want it might not always bring happiness. I heard that from a professor of mine a couple of years ago. Thanks for reminding me of this valuable lesson. |
| Rosie | Posted
on 17-Nov-03 08:00 PM
Oys_Chill, The teacher beat you up for believing in God...awwww...that's so cruel. I'm sure that teacher will burn in hell :) |
| Selfexplorer | Posted
on 18-Nov-03 02:22 PM
Except man, no other creatures - birds, animals, trees, and all other living beings have God. I don't believe in God but I pray very often because I take it as balancing myself with the tune of nature. I feel good in doing so. Scientists say, earth was formed by a big bang. So, it's all about chemical reaction. Some might say, "God is performing an experiment" How can I say "No"? But I haven't seen or met till now. My ultimate answer is " I DON'T KNOW " |
| Selfexplorer | Posted
on 18-Nov-03 04:00 PM
J Krishnamurti In awareness there is only the present-that is, being aware, you see the past process of influence which controls the present and modifies the future. Awareness is an integral process, not a process of division. For example, if I ask the question, "Do I believe in God," -in the very process of asking, I can observe, if I am aware, what it is that is making me ask that question; if I am aware I can perceive what have been and what are the forces at work which are compelling me to ask that question. Then I am aware of various forms of fear-those of my ancestors who have created a certain idea of God and have handed it down to me, and combining their idea with my present reactions, I have modified or changed the concept of God. If I am aware I perceive this entire process of the past, its effect in the present and in the future, integrally, as a whole. If one is aware, one sees how through fear one's concept of God arose; or perhaps there was a person who had an original experience of reality or of God and communicated it to another who in his greediness made it his own, and gave impetus to the process of imitation. Awareness is the process of completeness, and introspection is incomplete. The result of introspection is morbid, painful, whereas awareness is enthusiasm and joy. |
| zarathustra | Posted
on 18-Nov-03 06:27 PM
Despite the fact that the modern ideals have suppressed the modern man, the modern man still falls for it. Judeo-Christian beliefs dominate every aspects of being a modern man. Liberal democracy is propagated as being the best form of society, although the fact remains that these elements go against the essence of being a human being. The only way to advance for the modern man is to drop these ideals; however, the modern man sees this as being out of the question. Is not this too much to ask for, especially because the modern man does not even understand this yet? Again, answering this is a difficult task considering the fact that living by this ideal is not appropriate in the modern society. However, it should be considered that the modern society has continually suppressed the majority of mankind. By creating the divine power, god: to whom every man is a salve, a few people have gained from this. The modern society is full of examples that show that the modern man has become nothing but instruments of these people. For example, the modern man is willing to die for his modern beliefs of liberal democracy. It should be understood that wanting to live is one of the most powerful instincts of the man, however the modern society has been able to change this instinct, because the modern man is willing to sacrifice himself for his beliefs. “Many sick people have always been among the poetizers and God-cravers; furiously they hate the lover of knowledge and that youngest among the virtues, which is called ‘honesty.’ They always look backward toward dark ages; then, indeed, delusion and faith were another matter: the rage of reason was godlikeness, and doubt was sin.” (33) People who despise their body and are willing to sacrifice themselves are “no longer capable of what it would do above all else: to create beyond itself.” Pointing out to people who become victims of such values, Nietzsche writes: “Why live? All is vanity! Living—that is threshing straw; living—that is consuming oneself in flames with out becoming warm.’ Such antiquarian babbling is still considered “wisdom”; it is honored all the more for being old musty. Mustiness too ennobles.” (Zarathustra, 204) |
| porcelina | Posted
on 18-Nov-03 06:34 PM
sorry to drift away from the topic but i have a question for soma ji.. smashing pumpkins ko soma ho? my views tommorow.. am going to bed for now!! |
| Shiva Gautam | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 07:06 AM
Once I wrote about god based on a real situation and the article was posted at the following website. I was not sure if I can copy (copyright?) and paste it- So here is the address. Of course I made it a litte bit dramatic - but was not successful at the end- reading now I think I could have polished it more to make it more polite, intellectual and readble http://sulekha.com/expressions/articledesc.asp?cid=109683 :-o) Thanks Shiva Gautam |
| Gokul | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 07:19 AM
If you want the academic answers to the existence of God, then there are three arguments: ontological, design, and cosmological. Ontological argument starts with the definition that God is the perfect being. Since he is perfect, he has all perfections. Lack of existence would mean he is imperfect. Therefore, god must exist. Design argument says that if you closely look at the universe, its symmetry and intelligence, then is it possible to have such design merely by chance? That design intelligence is god. Cosmological argument asks what was there before anything like time, space, and causation existed? That first existence or cause is God. What do Kant, Hegel, Kierkegaard, and Nietzsche say about God? I will discuss it later, time permitting. |
| Gokul | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 07:47 AM
Shivaji, Thanks for the link. Your article is really interesting and insightful because it directly hits the central problem associated with any discussion about god. I agree that unless we define what god is, there is no point talking about. And when we start defining, it shows we already have some preconceived notions which are very difficult to get rid of. I noticed that there are more postings by you on Sulekha. I hope to read them all and make comments. You made my day. |
| Biruwa | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 08:07 AM
Shiva Gautam ji, Interesting Read, your article is. |
| Nepe | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 10:09 AM
Shiva Gautam ji, I am delighted to see you joining this discussion. With you and Gokul ji in the panel, I anticipate a vigorously scholar debate on this extremely sensitive subject of all time. I read your piece on 'Atasutus and God'. I was overwhelemed because I used to use exactly the same thread of logic represented by Atasutus to question the belief of many friends of mine in my school days. Since my father gave me Rahul Sankrityayan's 'Tumahari Xaya' to read when I was in grade 9, I became a staunch atheist and I used to debate with everybody. One of the most memorable debate I had was with a famous Pundit ji from Phulbari, Kavre, when I was in grade 10. During the debate I developed an interestimng logic for impossibility of Omnipotence, which years later on, I learned already exist as a paradox of Omnipotence among tarkashastri.haru. Gokul ji has presented this logic in a compact form- Can God create a stone that he can not lift up himself ? For a long time, the question of God was, for me, a question of truth, whether it exists or not. However, as I matured and began to see how, despite being illogical in concept and often unduly exploited by a handful of people to their advantage, successfully it has co-existed with otherwise logical living of so many people even in our modern time, I started to look more at it's practical aspect than it's factual aspect. And it has become a great blessing for me, because now I am at peace with God without believing in it's physical existence. I look at God and religion as a creative art rather than a truth and life style. You are given unlimited freedom of imagination, without a burden of any proof, for an ideal being- ideal both by merit and power. What comes from you is God. I had posted a tiny ghazal sometime ago in Sajha, in which two couplets were related to this theme. I am reposting it for your pleasure, lk|otdsf ;hn cf+vf jfrL/x]5g\ uhn cf+vf cf+;'sf] x/]s :gfg kl5 slt sGrg lgd{n cf+vf O{Zj/ 5}g, t/ p;sf] 7]ufgf x/]s d'xf/sf] lgZ5n cf+vf Psn cf+vf /+u x]g{ ulx/fO{ b]Vg o'un cf+vf lha|f] 9f+6\g ;w}+ ;?n 9f+6\g ;w}+ lj?n cf+vf ev{/ s] cb[Zo u'Ho|f] k|df0f < x7ft r+rn cf+vf slt rZdf dfQ} abN5;\ g]k], ca abn cf+vf I had read a small note from some scholar in Times last year (I don't remember the name, issue and even the full content ) in which he says, there is a growing acceptance now that theology should be free of scientific rigor. Keep Darwin away from the Bible. As a person practicing science as his profession, I find this as rather compromising the sovereignty of science. However, I fully understand the practical aspect of his view. If nothing else, it will at least not encourage the pseudo-science the way, for example, so-called Christian Science is advancing ! So, there is no point asking whether there is God or not before making sure you accept logical method or not. In a different word, beautifully illustrated by Shiva Gautam ji, there is no point asking the question you already know the answer to. And now a quick remark on the three classes of argument on God as referred by Gokul ji. Design argument: If God is the designer of the universe, who designed the God and who designed the designer who designed the God and so on. Cosmological argument: By the same argument as above, what existed before God. What is the cause of the *first* cause. Or if there was not any cause before the first cause, what is the cause of that ? |
| Nepe | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 10:16 AM
Correction Jibro dhaantna sandhai safal Dhaantna sandhai bifal aankhaa lha|f] 9f+6\g ;w}+ ;kmn 9f+6\g ;w}+ ljkmn cf+vf |
| Nepe | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 10:40 AM
Okay, one more post.. The above ghazal in Romanized Nepali for those who don't have Devnagari font Priyatam.kaa sajal aankhaa Vachirahechhan ghazal aankhaa Aansu.ko harek snaan pachhi Kati kanchan nirmal aankhaa Ishwar chhaina, tara usko thegaanaa Harek muhaar.ko nishchhal aankhaa Ekal aankhaa ranga herna Gahiraai herna yugal aankhaa Jibro dhhantna sandhai safal Dhaantna sandhai bifal aankhaa Bharkhar ke adrishya gujryo Pramaan ? Hathaat chanchal aankhaa Kati chasmaa maattai badalchhas Nepe, aba badal aankhaa Note: Vaachirahechhan = are reciting |
| Gokul | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 10:52 AM
Nepeji, I request you to be fully involved in this as well so that we can benefit from your uncompromising scientific perspective. Vade Vade Jayate Tatvabodha. You correctly noted the inherent limitation of "academic" approach to understanding god. All western philosophy use God as the first principle. You cannot go beyond that. That's it. That is why there is another approach to understanding God, that of practice and meditation. As Dalai Lama aptly says, "Religion is like medicine. You must use it (practice it) to get the benefits." Wait, wait, let us not get everything mixed up. First, let us see what the Western world has to offer about this problem. If we are still unsatisfied, then we can delve more. Kant is one of the pillars of western thought. It is impossible to discuss him at length here. But his gist is that reality cannot be understood by logic alone, having faith does not mean irrationality (or against categorical imperative), buiding morality framework is not unscientific. Kant has a huge impact on biblical thinkers. The conclusion from Kant to our approach of understanding god through logic is this: SORRY. |
| Gokul | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 11:04 AM
"Gokul ji has presented this logic in a compact form- Can God create a stone that he can not lift up himself ? " Nepeji, I should not take the credit for this logic. In fact, it is by Norbert Wiener (God and Golem). |
| lonely1 | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 11:35 AM
Sitara, Pravin, and others, The discussion on G/god is creating a trap in the form of a dichotomy between spiritualism and rationalism. Yes, like Sitara says, skepticism could be considered a belief if it is a conviction, but if not (such as Bertran Russell argues it need not be), then it can be a starting point to get out of that trap. Like someone in the post said, Nietzsche debunks the western history of ideas beginning with Socrates because Socrates began the hegemonic inscription of reason onto what he considered the unreason. This leaves me with the Derridean notion of differance--that the statment that god (or for that matter soul) exists is predicated on our belief in the a priori and can not be interrogated. And when a faith is such, it is a construction--social, cultural, religious, whatever you call it. Differance (not the regular word "difference") is that there is god but only so long as you believe in the a priori, and that is belief not reason. I am open if anyone can convince me on the existence of god or soul, and am not bound to any dogma. But when someone calls my rationalism a belief, that will be his/ her problem. Or what? LONELY # 1 (Not lonely) from chitwan |
| Soma | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 12:26 PM
Porcelina, Not quite, I hate that song, and that stupid Brave New World!!! No, I'm very unoriginal and uninspired........... Soma's just my given name (reference the Gita). |
| rbaral | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 12:43 PM
ignore please |
| Nepe | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 12:44 PM
Gokul ji, The three things that I have pondered most in my entire life are- in the order of magnitude - God, Love and the Republicanism for Nepal. You can easily see how much interesting this discussion is to me. Please note that I said I have pondered. I did not say I have read about. Because I have not. So I will not be able to cite interesting references from the vast knowledge and discussion that already exist in the topic. I expect you, lonely1 and other friends to fulfil that need. I will be reading with immense interest and participate in some tarka-bitarka as the discussion develops. Re scientific perspective, probably a well-trained physicist/mathematician would do a better job than a poorly trained biologist like me on this particular topic. However, I will certainly represent the skepticism a scientist should have. Hoping more discussion along the line of rationalism this time. Spiritualism can wait. Haina ta, Lonely1 ji ? |
| Shiva Gautam | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 01:09 PM
Gokul ji , Biruwa ji and Nepe ji, Thanks. Just a 'basi binyaalo'. I had written this first in Nepali and given to someone to publish, but not sure if it ever got published. One of my friends liked the word so much we started to use word 'Atasutus ' in conversations whenever we realized that something is not understood, or is just a play of words, or when after a long reading or discussion nothing concrete comes out of it or when it is felt that only the speaker or the writer understands what she/he is talking about - like 'tyo ta Atasutus bhai haalyo ni" Shiva |
| peda | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 04:00 PM
It is very clear that we cannot define God. And true it may sound confusing. For those who want to get deeper, the following link may help. http://www.chinmayauk.org/gdev_article7.shtml At the end of the day, each one of us will have to make our own mind re what we want to do. There is not a lot of time left. |
| Gokul | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 05:08 PM
My approach is to cogitate on one idea, digest, and finally assimilate it. So, let us stop at Kant today. One obvious epistemological (let us ignore others) conclusion from him is that: Ultimate reality is beyond human cognition. God is not the unknown, but the UNKNOWABLE. The unknowability is not because of human limitation, but due to the very nature of reality itself. Later on, physicists said the same thing (Heisenberg's uncertainty principle). Even Hawkins agrees that nobody will know what happened at the big bang. Why time cannot be smaller than 10 exp(-34) seconds? In these days also, many theories are emerging all of which agree that reality is and will always be beyond our understanding. In summary: God is the unknowable. To believe in god is to acknowledge the existence of unknowability (not the Unknown!). (How close this is with the upanishad which says, Nayam atma pravachanen labhyo, na medhaya, na vedadhyayanena cha. But let us not discuss them here.) Ontological argument - Since we use language to convey our idea, how can we make sure that language itself is not constrained? Even pure mathematics may not be pure as suggested by Godel (while shattering Russell's principia mathematica) in his Impossibility theorem. Design argument - Einstein was profoundly influenced by the symmetry of the universe and thought there was Grand Unified Theory that explains everything Cosmological argument - Perhaps the process itself , neither the matter nor energy, is the primal cause of the universe. Recent works by Kauffman (Nepeji - he is a biologist!) point to this direction. The Moral? Pedaji, you are absolutely right. Let us see what Kierkegaard says tomorrow. |
| lonely1 | Posted
on 19-Nov-03 07:05 PM
And Gokuljee, Therein comes the question of language and psyche and the very metaphorical nature of our relationship to things. From a purely psychoanalytical perspective, what we call knowledge/ the repository of information and specualtion, forms the symbolic--the law of the father that we have to adapt to in our socialization and maturing process. As such, it is stabilized by a language system that gives it the guise of a stable entity--ontology. But it holds antagonistic relationship to the "real" wishes and desires deep down that are suppressed by the symbolic in the interest of social, cultural, legal authorities that be. While God is just one item created to stabilize the existing power structures and social systems (just think of how God is used to uphold caste system or the Bible was used to legitimize colonialism!), the metaphysical speculation has done little more than just mystify the whole process. Just think of Kant's racist argument that the negro can not imagine the categorical imperative. Now what I am saying is that on the one hand it is not possible to exactly articulate what one feels about one's experiences and the perceived reality because of the way language and our psyche function in relation to one another. On the other, much of the metaphysical speculations, while interesting and sometimes very imaginative, simply obfuscate the mysterious. That is enough to get anyone going. From a non-psychological perspective then, Heidegger says, "language is the house of being," and we are not sure about how far we can actually pin down our deepest desires and phantasies in the language that works only by virtue of some standardized but arbitrary conventions. It then follows that we can not truly and fully know what we think we do. The world then to our senses is an illusion (as posited by our Hindu sages), a la the Watchowski brother's construction of the MATRIX. And hence the scope for all these ramblings in this thread. The moral then: be skeptical of not only other's (including god man's) arguments, but also that of language and narratives used to justify God or create scientific stories about the universe (or some God!). As TS Kuhn showed in his revolutionary work (Structures of Scientific Revolutions and others), nothing is purely objective--even scientific "facts" are influenced by the researcher's predilections with regard to his/ her choice of research topic, subjects, questions, variables, hypothesis and so many other things. Whether it's the big bang or other theories, they are all narratives--and competing ones--and we need to take them only as such and judged on the strength of their competitive plausibility against that of other narratives. The only problem with "God-created-the-universe" thesis is that it is the least reasonable argument. My two cents! lonely#1 |
| peda | Posted
on 20-Nov-03 06:32 AM
by Ganesh V. Burde Previously: Krishna teaches Essence of the Supreme Being and ways to reach him. Chapter XV The Yoga of the Supreme Soul (Purushottamayoga) Krishna predicates that the individual soul is part of the supreme soul, the God himself. He beautifully compares the world to the Banyan tree, which has roots above and branches below reaching the ground, where they root secondary trunks all around. The Vedas are the leaves; the objects of the fine senses are the shoots abounding; the roots below proliferate continuously in the human world of actions, which bind men. One cannot recognize the beginning or the end; neither its shape. Hence cut down this tree of worldly affairs bottom-wise and search for refuge from which there is no return. "In that refuge there is neither sun nor moon, but myself. You, the individual, are part of the supreme soul. Please note that the brilliance of the one sun shining over the whole world as also of the moon is mine. It spreads over all creatures within and without. I am fire digesting food. Also I make creatures breathe in and breathe out. Two things are existent mainly in this world, the indestructible and the destructible ones. Besides these, is the Purushottama, the highest one." |
| Gokul | Posted
on 20-Nov-03 07:02 AM
Loneli1 ji, Thanks for your interesting read. I cautioned not to mix ethics and metaphysics with epistemology. Let us discuss them after we firmly conceptualize what god is. However, your discussion of Heidegger is quite appropriate which shows our ontological dilemma. If you have any insights from Chomsky, then please share. "The moral then: be skeptical of not only other's (including god man's) arguments, but also that of language and narratives used to justify God or create scientific stories about the universe (or some God!)." You acknowledge the necessity on non-verbal mechanism to understad reality. That was my whole point. "The only problem with "God-created-the-universe" thesis is that it is the least reasonable argument. " There is no reason in this argument. It is beyond reason. And beyond reason does not mean against reason. Again, belief in god means belief in the The existence of unknowable which is ALWAYS beyond reason. It is not JUST "God-created-the-universe". |
| lonely1 | Posted
on 20-Nov-03 08:09 AM
Gokuljee, It's getting interesting all the more. "belief in god means belief in the the existence of unknowable which is ALWAYS beyond reason. It is not JUST "God-created-the-universe." Ok, but what premise are we starting with? For some, for example most Christians, belief in God is not the belief in the unknowable, a la the agnosts, but it is a belief in the god in an understandable form, and hence their criticism of other faiths as obscurantism or idol worship and bla bla. I can see that you have a certain position on god as the unknowable. But what I wonder about is why would the most rational of the animal world have to take refuge to some half-baked theories of god or when they fail, elevate god to the level of unknowable (so that all discussions and questions would end). Some angst? lonely#1 |
| lonely1 | Posted
on 20-Nov-03 08:14 AM
[Chomsky:] [Chomsky discusses the 1996 Republican National Convention and notes that the pro-business wing of the Republican party gives the religious right its "god and country rally" but keeps the religious right from having a major role in decision making] ... But that can change. When people grow more alienated and isolated, they begin to develop highly irrational and very self-destructive attitudes. They want something in their lives. They don't just want to be glued to the television set. If most of the constructive ways are cut off, they turn to other ways. You can see that in the polls too. I was just looking at a study by an American sociologist (published in England) of comparative religious attitudes in various cultures. The figures are shocking. Three quarters of the American population literally believe in religious miracles. The numbers who believe in the devil, in resurrection, in God doing this and that -- it's astonishing. These numbers aren't duplicated anywhere else in the industrial world. You'd have to maybe go to mosques in Iran or do a poll among old ladies in Sicily to get numbers like this. Yet this is the American population (Barsamian and Chomsky 1994, pp.77-78). |
| lonely1 | Posted
on 20-Nov-03 08:17 AM
Chomsky: How do I define God? I don't.... People who find such conceptions important for themselves have every right to frame them as they like. Personally, I don't. That's why you haven't found my "thoughts on this [for you] criticaI question." I have none, because I see no need for them (apart from the -- often extremely interesting and revealing -- inquiry into human culture an history). [the full quotation:] How do I define God? I don't. Divinities have been understood in various ways in the cultural traditions that we know. Take, say, the core of the established religions today: the Bible. It is basically polytheistic, with the warrior God demanding of his chosen people that they not worship the other Gods and destroy those who do -- in an extremely brutal way, in fact. It would be hard to find a more genocidal text in the literary canon, or a more violent and destructive character than the God who was to be worshipped. So that's one definition. In the Prophets, one finds (sometimes) a different conception, much more humane. That's why the Prophets (the "dissident intellectuals" of their day) were persecuted, imprisoned, driven into the desert, etc. -- other reasons included their geopolitical analysis, unwelcome to power. The intellectuals who were honored and privileged were those who centuries later were called "false prophets." More or less a cultural universal. There were different conceptions of divinity associated with these tendencies, and Greek and Zoroastrian influences are probable causes for later monotheistic tendencies (how one evaluates these are a different matter). Looking beyond, we find other conceptions, of many kinds. But I have nothing to propose. People who find such conceptions important for themselves have every right to frame them as they like. Personally, I don't. That's why you haven't found my "thoughts on this [for you] criticaI question." I have none, because I see no need for them (apart from the -- often extremely interesting and revealing -- inquiry into human culture an history). From ZNet's ChomskyChat (www.lbbs.org): 1998 May 17: Reply from [Noam Chomsky], to Darrenn Bills, on "Definition of God." |
| Recon | Posted
on 20-Nov-03 09:02 AM
If there is god, then he is not all good and powerful... Else there is no god at all.... Or may be god is on vacation these..Else condition of world won't be like, the way it is these days... |
| Gokul | Posted
on 20-Nov-03 09:20 AM
God is like scabies, you know you should not scratch but you can't help. Keep scratching although I will be off Sajha for a week to meet some deadline. |
| VISHONTAR | Posted
on 21-Nov-03 01:35 PM
Believe in god? I have counter questions for you. What will I get if I believe in God and what will I lose if I don't believe? Other way round! What will I gain if I don't believe in God and what will I lose if I believe? Let me explain what I mean. I will remain the same person whether I believe or don't believe in god until I step up dynamically to bring change on me. I am angry person, suffering from anger which is partial madness. I am suffering from lust, anxiety, restlessness, ill will, animosity, fear, jealousy and so may different types of mental negativities, but I believe in God, the almighty, the most merciful. What I gonna get from him? Do you think that simply if I believe in God, I won't be suffering anymore? Will all of my mental negativities disappear miraculously as soon as I start to believe in god? Will I get peace of mind simply because I believe in the exsistance of god? Can mere belief be such a powerful thing? If so, this is the greatest deal ever, just believe and get rid of all mental impurities. But it does not happen. Can I escape from old age if I believe in God? Can I escape from sickness, death, poverty and many other physical troubles if I just believe? Can I get something what I want if I believe in god? Can I be protected from all the downs of life if I believe in god? Can I secure all the ups of live if I believe in god? Will I never have to suffer from the dissociation of my beloved ones if I believe? Can I get all the physical luxuries if I believe in god? If yes, this is the cheapest price, just believe, and get everything. But it does not happen. My mere belief neither can wash my dirty, filthy mind, which bounds me to suffer due to restlessness, nor can it fulfill my physical desires. Belief can neither give mental purity nor the physical perfection. So belief in god is unable to bring something better in physical as well as mental level, then and there. If some one thinks that the god will pay happiness and prosperity in next life at the cost of belief, I am not that type. I need result now and here. I am result oriented, scientific minded individual. If you define belief something differently, please help me to learn that special type of belief, I need happiness. What if I don't believe in god? Will I get mental peace and physical prosperity as a reward of not believing on him? If so I this is the greatest deal ever, don't believe in God and get everything. But this does not happen. Neither I you will be rewarded for believing on god, nor will I be punished not believing on him. I won't be rewarded not believing on god, never will I be punished on believing. So it is worthless to believe or not believe. If you work hard in the field you have chosen and you have good grasp of the field, success is yours. You don't need the grace of almighty. This is law of nature. If a farmer works hard in his field, he can grow good crops; no matter he believes or does not believe in god. A hard working student will get good grades no matter whether he is believer or not. A laborious skillful business will earn money no matter whether he is a believer or not. So, all the mundane, earthly, physical successes are based on our effort and diligence, this is a law of nature, which is unavoidable. If you believe that this law is made by some supernatural power, the god, no problem. If you believe hat there is no supernatural power that made this law, no problem either. But law is law; neither believers nor non-believers will escape this law. Anyone, either believer or non-believer, must work hard to get good fruit. This is one of the absolute laws of the nature, there is no biasing, and it is for one and all, for believers as well as non-believers. Thus wisdom is to follow the law rather than believing or not believing on supernatural power. There is no extra privilege for believers. We all are suffering from mental impurities. Hatred, ill will, anger, animosity, anxiety, greed, lust, passion, ego, superiority complex, inferiority complex, meanness, selfishness, oh you name it. These all mental impurities are making us restless time and again. These impurities are making our mood off time and again. They are bound us to make mistakes which results misery. They are keeping us away from happy and harmonious life. We have to generate wisdom to fight with these mental defilements. We have to learn to eradicate these mental stains for the harmonious life. We have to work hard, so hard that we can ever thought of. From my own experience, it needs far more effort to fight against the mental defilements compare to the mundane success. Do you believe some supernormal power will wash up your mind if you believe him and all your negativities disappear and positivities like love, good will, compassion will automatically puffed up. No my friends, you have to clean up all your mental negativities yourself. No supernormal power will reward a beautiful clean mind for the belief. Believers as well as non believers both have to strive to clean up their mind themselves to get peace and happiness. Whoever strives, they will get the result, no matter whether they are believers or non believers, law of nature will not discriminate. Thus what important is to wash up the mental stains. What are we doing? We are making no effort to clean up our mind, as a result we are being restless time and again, and believing that some almighty will clean up our defiled mind and set us free from restlessness. No way! Most of us are don't even know the cause of misery are mental defilements, we think the life is always like this. But we suffer, don't we? So, law of nature is same for believers as well as non believers, no one is getting any special privilege. For prosperous life you have to work hard in the physical world and for the happy harmonious life you have to work hard in the mental world. This is a law of nature, true for one and all, no discrimination; no matter you are believers or non-believers. Contd...... |
| peda | Posted
on 21-Nov-03 03:45 PM
Interesting argument Vishontorji. We know the true answer is not that easy. If it was so simple, Budha would not have spent so many years under the tree. It seems that you are not decided whether you believe in God or not. Once you decide where you want to go, then you will get all the benefits and 'side-effects' of the thing. I am not qualified to tell people what is best. But I feel that each individual should decide for himself/ herself what path you want to follow. If you want to stay in the middle and not think of it too much, that's also your choice- no harm in that. One thing is clear and all of us can see- the cyle of birth,disease and death.Let's imagine for a moment that you have been diagnosed as having a terminal illness (God forbid) and you will live for another 2 months. What will you do and how will you feel? What I am trying to say is our time passes really quickly like the 2 months and before too long we will be in our death bed. So it is not worth hurting anybody in this life. Let's try to do something good so that we can go to sleep peacefully in our long sleep. Let us not tolerate injustice but in our non-violent way. People have done it before. I think that is what all religions also say whether we believe in them or not. |
| vishontar | Posted
on 21-Nov-03 07:12 PM
peda ji, Very intersting indeed. I was quite intersted to have direct conversation with you, to my pleasure, you responded me. You wrote, <<<<<< It seems that you are not decided whether you believe in God or not. Once you decide where you want to go, then you will get all the benefits and 'side-effects' of the thing <<<<<<<<< Wonderful! I have few questions for you, if I decide, to believe in god, what benifits or side effects do I expect? If I decide not to believe in god, what side effect or benifit will I get? Moreover, you stands (seems) for a strong believer of god, please enlighten me what advantage have you found yet? Please respond these questions with your understanding, I am not the one who ask questions to be superior or inferrior, I always ask to learn, hope to learn something form your experience. You wrote, <<<< If you want to stay in the middle and not think of it too much, that's also your choice- no harm in that. <<<< I have already mentioned, I always do the things that brings fruit, now and here. Please once again, tell me form your own understanding which one should I chose? I will chose the one which will give me fruit, give me some insight, from your own experience. You wrote, <<<<<< One thing is clear and all of us can see- the cyle of birth,disease and death.Let's imagine for a moment that you have been diagnosed as having a terminal illness (God forbid) and you will live for another 2 months. What will you do and how will you feel? <<<<<<< To be honest, I can not see the cycle of death and birth, utmost I can do is, I can believe it. I suppose there is rebirth and death, the vicious cycle is never ending, please tell me, if you know the way out? What will I do if I have only two month life time, I will tell you at the end of the conversation. you wrote, <<<< What I am trying to say is our time passes really quickly like the 2 months and before too long we will be in our death bed. So it is not worth hurting anybody in this life. Let's try to do something good so that we can go to sleep peacefully in our long sleep. Let us not tolerate injustice but in our non-violent way. People have done it before. <<<<< You are the second person I have most admired in Sajha (first one is mitra2). This paragraph bound me to respect you if you are saying everything from your own experience. I loved the word non violent, that you have used, I will remember it. Please tell me the path which leads towards peace, give me guesture of it. I know one path, where I have been walking, I know the path very well, but the distination is infinitely far. For me that is one and only one path (I sound like a narrow minded pareson). Some people said there are many paths to that distination, my experience and understanding both object this. Please, tell me the path that you are following. I am open minded and humble, so I mentioned about the path I have been following. I mentioned it because I want to share with you, I don't want to disguise myself. I may be wrong, but what I found, many of us do not want to share because we don't have confidence. We scare of being wrong, that hits the ego, and it hurts. I am not that type, for me, imperfection is human. I expect same from you. Vishowntar |
| DP | Posted
on 21-Nov-03 07:20 PM
"God is like your father and you are like you". When you were a kid, your father was your hero.He was the only person you looked at.He was your benchmark for every measurement.He was the most intelligent and the greatest of all men you had ever seen.As you grow up,you saw his weaknesses.You realized how stupid you were to think your father to be the greatest of all men.You compared yourself with your father.You found him a 'not so successful' man in life.You thought you would achieve a lot more in his age.You become old. And now, you realize how great your father was.You correct yourself once again(just like you corrected yourself earlier) and think that he was really a great man, at least in your life. Same principle applies when you talk about the god.You respect the god,you defy the god,and respect him again.It changes just in this order with your age. |
| peda | Posted
on 22-Nov-03 01:10 AM
Vishontarji, Thanks for your praise which I am not sure whether I am worthy of it. I am just an ordinary person like most of us and try to make my living in this materialistic world. I am involved in social services and do my litle bit.Philosophy is my interest. While I was talking about benefits and side effects of belief in God, I was thinking of spiritual aspects and what it does to your mental state. It is not so much of materialistic benefit. Same is true for vice versa. I do not believe in the concept of heaven or hell, or that kind of punishment. One famous saint once said 'How can the soul be held responsible for what body does?' It is more a question of learning to live in peace with oneself. When I said cycle of death, I did not mean reincarnation. Sorry, I may have used the wrong word. I meant the process of growing old and dying in every human being. Now this is the ultimate truth and we can see it clearly. Now it may seem far away, but it seems the time passes so quickly, befor too long, the opportunity is gone. It is a bit like a dream. Feels real while it is there but soon it is gone. If all of us, in our own way understand this and try to help each other out, the world will be a better place.I do believe in non- violence and I believe that is the way forward. You sound very broad minded and the path(probably karma path) you are following is probably the right path. there is nothing wrong in working for a result as long as you understand that the result is not guaranteed and it might not be the result you want. It is a question of learning to live peacefully with what one has. None of us are perfect. We try to learn from each other's experince. When we learn to live with what we have and we achieve peace with ourselves, we achieve God. Then our long sleep would be a peaceful one. I know it all sounds a bit vague. Pls keep posting and we will continue discussion, and learn more from each other. |
| vishontar | Posted
on 22-Nov-03 03:10 PM
Peda Ji, It's my great previlege to get opportunity of having conversation with you. I don't praise anybody without any reason. I admired mitra2 because I found him understanding the problem and seeking for solution. You can easily find bleeding poeple talking about big-big philosophies, but it's hard to find someone thinking of the wound and looking for medicine. I found mitra2 the second type so I praised him. I parised you because I found you are realizing that you are bleeding, I don't know whether you are seeking for medicine or not. I am sorry for if you are just exaling the words of some wise man who has realized he is bleeding. I hope not, you must have realized that you are bleeding. Peda Ji, we all are bleeding, you know it very well. One who realize that he is bleeding is a wise person. If one just end up realizing that he is wounded, he will get nothing more than those who don't realize they are wounded. After realizing the bleeding life, if one looks for the medication, looks for the doctor, he is wiser. And the wisest is one who follow the instructions of doctor and take medication and safety measure to be cured. There can not be many medicines for similar wounds. Even the medicines look different their ingredients must be the same. This is science. We all are suffering from physcial or mental problems. We never looks for the medicine because we have no right frame of refrence. Everybody around us are suffering from the same disease, no one is healthy, so we can not feel we are sick. Let me give you one example, we all have anger in our mind, somebody has more sombody has less. We don't go to therapeutic school for this but if some one exceeds the a general limit of anger, his/hers family looks for a physiatric. The difference is only degree, we all have problems. This is the main reason of my postings. I want everybody to realize the wound and look for medication, get cured and lead happy life. Peda ji, as far as I know from my experience and understanding, spiritualism is the study of mind and the matter, study of oneself. One is made up of mind and body (matter). Spirit is nothing invisible hided inside the body, it represents existance of being. The closest translation of sprit is in our root language is Atma, which laterally means, self. Thus, science which deals about oneself is called spiritauality. We never try to know about our self, we just discuss about big big philosophies. We never make thorough study of spirituality nor we belive on someone who has studied it. We concider spirituality is something extraordinary thing, we tag it ultranatural and never listen to someone who try to say, it is natural. It really wonders me. I am realistic individual. I believe in scinece, the fact. I am result oriented person. I am talking about the mundene achievements because that is a science. I just wanted to say that there is a well defined law of nature, a hard work will be paid, no matter whether you are believer or non-believer of the existance of the god. This is truth. You are talking about peace. From my understanding and experience, peace is the state of mind where there is no mental negativity present. The way to achieve the defiliment free mind is called Dharma. You told me that I am following Karma path, you are pretty much talking about Gita, Niskam Karma. Please tell me about your understanding about Karma path, or let me know more paths if there are any. Moreover, please don't forget to tell me which path are you following. Hope to learn more from you, Vishowntar |
| ltrw | Posted
on 22-Nov-03 03:24 PM
And if there is a God I know he likes to rock He likes his loud guitars And he is spiders from Mars And if there is a God I know she's watching me She likes what she sees But there's trouble on the breeze Who are you this time? Are you one of us flying blind? Because I'm down here throwing stones While you're so far from home And if there is a God I know they're on TV The spies with bedroom eyes Who cowers in our sky Who are you this time? Are you one of us flying blind? Because I'm down here throwing stones While you're so far from home If there is a God If there is a God --- SP |
| peda | Posted
on 22-Nov-03 04:02 PM
Vishowntar ji, I agree with you fully. Naturally, as you have mentioned, to achieve peace with oneself, we need to gradally root out negative emotions. But in addition, we also need to learn to live with ourselves, our desires which are limitless. Now three different yogas (path) are commonly described. Karma, bhakti and sanyasa. In Bhakti yoga, one devotes oneself to god and meditates. For that person, everything that happens is God's creation and he achieves peace with himself as a result. In Sanyasa, they renounce all the worldly achievements. They therefore have neither positive nor negative emotions and ultimately achieve peace. I karma path, people carry on with the work assigned to them. They believe that everybody here is borne for a reason and he/she can achieve peace by doing the work that will serve the mankind and will please God. Though I believe in God, I do not think it is necessary in order to follow any of the above paths.Karma can be interpreted in a much wider sense and it is compatible with materialistic living. It is important to understand that our desires have no boundaries, so we should not be slaves to it. It is also clear that every hard work is not necessarily handsomely rewarded in the materialistic sense. If we understand these basic facts and learn to live in peace with ourselves and whatever we have, we achieve a kind of 'mokchhya' that is a sense of liberation from these worldly troubles. I am like yourself, in a scientific profession and trying to follow my own interpretation of Karma path. I do believe that everybody must find out for himself the right mixture of things in order to achieve the peace. Reading and discussion helps but is not the only solution. I do understand that I have a lot to learn and my quest continues. I do try to apply whatever I have learned in my practice but I know I have not yet attained that state of total peace with myself. hope to hear from you more, Peda |
| vishontar | Posted
on 24-Nov-03 12:08 PM
Peda Ji, Thank you very much for your enlightening information. Exactly, there are three Yogas as you said, Bhakti, Karma and Gyan. To get liberation form mental defilements, you need all of these. Bhakti, Karma and Gyan make a complete practice, it's a single path. They are not three different paths to reach to the final goal. Bhakti is devotion, you have to devote to the path and you have to devote yourself to the guide. So strong devotion is required to walk in the path and this is necessary. If you are Krishna Bhakta, this means you are devoted to Krishna, you are surrender to Krishna, you will follow whatever he teach, you have faith on him. The another word used for Bhakti is Shardda, means, faith, trust, belief. If you don't belive on what Krishna is saying, there is no hope that you will follow him, you will practice his teaching. So first comes the trust, faith, devotion. This is beginning of the path. If you just believe on Krishna, but does not follow his teaching, what is the use of that belief? Devotion means to follow the instruction, not to have mere faith. There are two type so faiths, blind faith and enlightened faith. Blind faith is the faith which the entire world has, it comes from tradition and family where you born and grow up. People automatically have faith towards their traditional systems, Gurus, without analysis.... this is blind faith. This faith is very dangerous, it ruins the lives. The enlighten devotion is one where one learn and understand the teaching and get convinced scientifically. One understand the path to be followed intellectually, one feels the path sounds reasonable and scientific. Then one start to test the validity of the path, one walks few steps and find true what he had studied, and walks few more steps, tests the validity again and finds true. This way one generate faith on the path and the person who shows the path. This is enlighten faith, enlighten devotion. This is essential devotion for the Yogi. As you are a science person, the closest example will be a graduate student and his guide professor. A graduate student should have faith with his guide, without faith he can not join this professor. If the graduate student just have devotion towrds his porfessor and not doing research, he can not get anything. A real devotion is to follow what the guide is saying. Thus, enlighten devotion, Bhakti Yoga, is essential, basic factor for the truth seeking persons. I wish some one could write more about this, elaborating the fact for general people. Mere devotion can do nothing, now you have to act, do Karma, so Bhakti is followed by Karma yoga. If you make through study, you will find Karma means intension. The Karmas are divided into three parts, mental, vocal and physical. The most important is the mental. Every karma begins in the mind and goes to vocal and physical. There is no explicit varbel and physical action, every vocal and physical actions are inspired by mental action. So if Yogi says Karma, it has nothing to do with the daily work and livelihood. In yogic language Karma refers to mental actions. Karma Yog means, the practice to regulate mental actions. Once mental actions are controlled, physical and vocal actions will be automatically controlled. So, Karma Yoga is the practice that purify your Kayik Karma (physical action), Bachik Karma (vocal action) and Manasik Karma (mental action). This is another important part of the whole practice. Finally Gyana Yoga, wisdom. This wisdom has nothing to do with the wisdom from books and intellect. This wisdom is the knowledge comes form the experience. Explore yourself, find the nature of the body, find the nature of the mind, notice how body is manifesting, how mind is manifesting, how they are relating with each other. consider yourself as a research scientist, the sample is you yourself and your mind is the tool to see yourself. Whatever knoledge you will get from this inspection, that will be the wisdom. All true Yogis find, three wisdoms, experience of impermanent, experience of egolessness and experience of misery or disatisfaction. So these three experiences are known as Gyan, and the practice to experience these three understandings is called Gyan Yoga. So, the path of purification isi complete only when all these three Yogas are practiced. Practice of single can not lead to perfection. I wrote this in very berief on the belief that you have some knowledge about this. I am sure many friends will have problem to understand what I mean. Please seekers, don't hegitate to ask if it is not clear to you. I encourage some one to elaborate what I mean, I hope some body will do it. As soon as I get time I would like to make a suggestion on, << ... trying to follow my own interpretation of Karma path. <<< My friend, what I wrote is from my own understanding, my own experience. If you have experiential knowledge, you will experience the same thing. Any true Yogi, whether Girastha Yogi or renounced Yogi, whoever has practice the sublime path, will say the same thing............. all there yogas completes the path, each Yoga is incomplete itself. Hope to learn more from you, Vishowntar |
| vishontar | Posted
on 26-Nov-03 02:03 PM
Peda Ji, I will always be appreciating your interest towards the path of purification but if you think that you are self sufficient to recognize the path, and to be able to walk in the path I won't be convinced. You must have a right Guru to direct you, a guru, who knows the path as if we know the way from home to work. Path is very difficult to locate in the first place, and if you could locate it it is very hard to walk. This is the reason many poeple of the world don't know about the path, and those who have heard of it just talk, never walk. The path is extremely remote but not impossible. This is the reason why Guru, one who teaches the path of purification, is considered above the parents. Parents, who brought us in this world, who served us selflessly, who give us taking all the troubles have lower position than Guru. Why? Because Guru shows us the path which leads to cessation of misery. Without Guru it is almost impossible, those who find the way without Guru are known as Buddha. I will believe if you say you learn reading and writing without help of anyone. I will believe without second thought if you say you know everything that is known to each Harvard, MIT professors. But I woun't believe, if you say, you understand the path of purification and walking on it withought any guide. I went through many literature before I started the path, I convinced myself that I underestood the path. I started to felt so, I started to give sermons to my friend, poor they spellbindingly listened me, and appreciated me. Andha Ko Desh Ko Kanu Raja. I read so many techniques and started to practice own my own. I thought i was heading towards right direction, in fact, I was rowing a tied boat. I was self satisfied from the intellectual understanding and my own interpretation but result was null. I was thinking that day by day my knowledge is encreasing and I was enlightening. Everything went in vain, I realized after I learned about the path from an expert and tried myself to explore it and to walk on it. So, from my own experience, I suggest you to find a right Guru who is export of the path. Let me tell you two historical events which will help you how difficult the path of purification. There were a great Rishi known as Mahashiva. He learned about the path intellectually, and had very clear understanding of the path. Many people started to come to him to learn the Dharma, the path. He became very popular teacher. Finally, poeple started to take appointment form his personal assistant. One young Tapassi came and said, Young Tapassi: I want to meet Mahashiva Rishi now. PA of Mahashiva: He is pack, you can get appontment one week after. YT: I have to meet him now, can I walk with him while he is going to beg food. PA: No, peoples have already signed up for that too. YT: Can I see him while he is going out for excretion? PA: No leave him alone at that time. Young Tapassi went after him while he was going for lattrin and stoped him. He said, " Sir, learning from you many people got enlightened and many are in the course of getting enlightened. How about you sir? You have never walked in the path. You just know the path intellectually, you can not cease your misery until you walk on it." Having said this YT flew in the sky, and went to Himalaya. He was enlightened student of Mahashiva. Mahashiva realized, "oh ya, my student is correct, I have to get enlightened for that I have to practice. Anyway, I know the path very well, it will take maximum one week to get enlightened." He said his PA to postpond all the appointments for one weeks and went jungle. He could not get enlightenment in that week, not even in a whole month, not even in a year, not even in 30 years. He worked hard everyday, he knew the path very well, but he could not get enlightened. What was the reason? What was the reason, the reason was not any god, who was not happy with him. The reason was his ego. He was always bringing his ego first, I have to be enlightened, I have to be enlightened. Theoritically he knew that I is barrier, but he could not apply in practice. He, the old Mahashiva, the smart teacher, finally sobbed aloud in the jungle. In that solitute he heard somebody else sobbing. He thought it would be his echo. But, he figured it out that the sound was of a female. He stopped sobbing and asked, MS: Who is this? A beautiful woman came from the wood and said, w: I am gardain daity of this jungle sir. MS: why are you sobbing? W: To get enlightened sir? MS: (Simled and said), how can you get enlightened by crying? W: I don't know sir, since decades I have been seeing you doing your effort for enlightenment, I have been following you. Now you cried, I thought that will be the part of the technique, so I also cried. Ego melted, he felt ashamed and became enlightened in no time. Person like Mahashiva also get confused, such a delicate path is this. Path is universal and it is one. There are not many paths for enlightenment. I do agree, there are hundreds of menthods of concentration, ie, Dhyana, but the path of purification is the same. Similar was the story of Anand, he also had hard time to get enlightened though he was expert of the subject, hundreds of Bhikhhus had got enlightened learing form him. The path is arduous, but not impossible. Hope to learn more from you, Vishowntar |
| peda | Posted
on 26-Nov-03 02:55 PM
Vishontarji, Thanks for the information. I am a somple, ordinary, mortal person and I never thought that I was self sufficient. Also I am not qualified to teach the right path to anyone. I was trying to put forward whatever little I knew with an idea that you would come up with such wonderful things and I am glad that you have done it. I have realised that it is easy to tell others what to do, but once it comes to you to follow the practice, it is mighty difficult. Can you tell me more about who would be a good guru? |