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| Bob Marley | Posted
on 24-Nov-03 02:04 AM
Dear all the friends here in Sajha...I've a serious question and I think it's worth talking about than most of the threads here on the posting. The symbol "Swastika" simple means "Good Luck" and it's been with our religion, Hindu for a long time. Now Hitler used that symbol and now it's the symbol of Naziz. But for our religion which has no connection with any of these fueding religions (Christian, Jesus and Islam), why should we be afraid to paint the symbol and be proud of it in the public? Hitler was never a Hindu and I've been pondering how did he come across with the sign. I've hear that German langage is somewhat an offshot of Indo European language. Is that the connection? Even if it is, in our religion the symbol had nothing to do with any hate crime. Why should I be afraid to show it in public esp in US? Should we adopt a new law stating that any white person use that symbol, it usually mean racism. But if we (Nepali, Indian) use it it means no racism (which is)? So if nobody is to use it, then aren't we too scared of losing something that means a part of our religion. Why should we not use it? If you guys can express your opinin, this thread might be worth something serious. Swastica.. Jay Nepal |
| junkiri | Posted
on 24-Nov-03 05:49 AM
Bob Marley , Although the two symbols look alike, they are not the same if you have paid attention. The Swastika denoting "Good Luck" goes clock wise while the infamous Nazi symbol goes anti-clock wise. I don't know much about the origin of either of the symbols but the subtle difference in the way the symbols are written may be indicative of the fact that these two things represent two things that are contrary to one another. neways, would love to learn more about this...... |
| Bilbo Baggins | Posted
on 24-Nov-03 08:23 AM
Junkiri Ji, Actually I have seen all version of Swastikas used in hindu scriptures. Mirror images, left to right , right to left, clock wise, counter clock wise, etc... BB |
| mickthesick | Posted
on 24-Nov-03 12:08 PM
....swastika is not only a hindu symbol.......it was a symbol used by the Aryan race and their ancestors.....Hitler believeing that Aryans are the superior race and should rule the world, used the symbol with a few alterations and this symbol became infamous. A symbol that carries good meaning has now been looked at as a bad one....all because of that single person. Last year one of my american friends looked at one of my hindu religious books and came across the symbol. He didn't say a word to me but went around telling others that I was a Nazi. As a result I had to go explain each of them the true meaning of this symbol and how it's not related to Nazis. |
| le chef du nuit | Posted
on 24-Nov-03 01:15 PM
no one complains about people using bulldozers, yet hitler and his nazis used them to demolish jewish homes |
| Bob Marley | Posted
on 24-Nov-03 06:23 PM
That's exactly what I expect MICK...How about other people who've gone through this experience. Do you think the guy bought your story. You've probable know that many here are dumb and stubborn. Junkiri... What are the chances that people will find the difference. It's more like an illusion to ordinary people. They think both of them are same. Can we go on explaning to everybody about the differences in the sign? Chef...Are you into construction. Wow...I didn't expect bulldozer is also an issue. Phewww! |
| kingkong | Posted
on 24-Nov-03 10:01 PM
you know the easy way out change the religion i am jewish now |
| DHANANJAYA | Posted
on 26-Nov-03 11:43 AM
Few more helpful information after mickthesick, Arya means Shresta, superior, the great. It was used as qualitative word. One who raised up from the normal human used to be said as Arya. Buddha used this word the most. At that time and evern before, an enlighten person were addressed as Arya. The opposite to Arya is Anarya. Anarya used to be the one who did not have any good qualities. This word, in its twested state, is still in use, Anadi or Anari. In Hindi as well as Nepali this word Anadi means who has lack of qualities. This qualitative word, which literally means supeior, now a days represents a group of people, a race. Anthropologist believes that these peoples are origionally from central europe. Some of them migerated to India through middle east. A group of them settled on middle east, in Iran and rest entered to India through Indus river. The word Iran is also considered as the derivation of Aryan. These peoples used to be explorers, scientists, discoverers. Their contribution to human kind is immeasurable. We, offsprings of them, proud of being their offspring, why? Because they were far more advance than us, we have to take their refrence to present ourself. Most of us even don't know what were their discoveries. Anthropologist or somebody else foud the Swastik sign in Germania reason, so Hitlar associated himself with Aryans and started to considered himself a Arya, the superior. He used Swastic sign as a sign of Arya, but poor Hitlar did not know the meaning of Swastik. The word Swastik comes from, Swasti. Swast = swo + Stith = Self + remain. The word Swasti means, remain within yourself. This word Swasti is used frequently till now, while giving blessing. Timro Swasti, Mukti Hos! Swasti means welfare from all aspects, and to have welfare from all aspects one must keep mind limited to himself/herself. We use the word Swastha for good health is from the same root, butthe word means something more than mere physically healthy. It literally means, swo + Astha, remain within yourself. This was the great discovery of Aryans, to keep mind within oneself, don't let mind to wonder. This is the teaching of Buddha and of all other Rishis and Munis, to remain within the self. I am pretty sure, Swastik has to do something with this, because it carries the same literal meaning. We considered it as sigh of Suva and Laava, the greatest Suva and Lave is to remains within onself, either you have to trust this or you have to test, but this is the truth. Let me interpret about the Swastik sign, it is converging from all four direction, this should mean converge yourself, don't wonder, then you will get real benefit, real happiness, real harmony. You may or may not accept this becasue this is my interpretation, from my understanding. Hitlar misinterpret the Swastik sign and took it as a sign of pride. He found German, who are offspring of Aryans, the superiors, dominated by Jewish. Jewish people were making mistakes at that time. They had family oriented custom and system. They did not care about the country, they just thought of advancement of their family or group. German government had to change rule almost every month because jwis people were very smart, they were taking advantage remaining within the law. Government started to feel that they were hard to govern. They were hard working and clever, so they were getting richer and richer. The economy were almost controlled by minority Jwis and government started to feel difficulty to rule them. By then, a proud ambitious young fellow known as Hitlar came in power to solve the problem. Instead of solving problem he creaed biggest problem to the world. Violence can never be the solution. Jews mistake were overshadowed by gaint mistake of Hitlar and sign of good will and wellfare got stained by dirty blood. Please feel free to correct me. Dhananjaya |
| thaag | Posted
on 26-Nov-03 12:11 PM
I just admire Dhananjaya's knowledge in socio-anthropology :) |
| peda | Posted
on 26-Nov-03 03:03 PM
Interesting. Thanks for the information, Dhananjayaji. |
| prawin | Posted
on 26-Nov-03 04:40 PM
first-- it isn't entirely wrong for the west to fear the symbol, because they had to go to war against it, and a horrendous war, at that. if there has been an event in recent history that symbolizes horror for the western mind, it is the Holocaust--it is only natural that the west will react to the symbol of that event. about Dhananjayji's rather simplistic approach-- the word Aryan sounds to me to be of a relatively recent English, if not European, invention. there is a difference between calling me a Nepali, and calling me a Nepalese--in that the latter nomencleture comes from the English. i find it difficult to buy that the word Iran is therefore a derivation of the word Aryan. however, i am aware of the mesopotamians and the Aryans of the subcontinent belonging to the same larger family. about Anadi or Anari--I am not sure if there isn't more of an influence of Arabic or Persian in it, as opposed to a derivation from Sanskrit roots. i also feel that you fail to give Hitler the due credit. he pulled off the biggest circus humankind has ever seen, and he wasn't entirely that ignorant. also, you seem to have substantially boiled down "the Jewish Question." i fear that the picture you paint of it is much lacking. although there were very rich Jews in Europe, as are now in the US, most Jews were poor, too. for a very long time, the Churches in Europe made usury a sin. in strictly catholic countries, only the Jews were allowed to become money lenders. thus, Jews were culturally made objects of hatred. although this alone doesn't explain the rise of anti-semitism, it did play a strong role in it, as the Jew's image as persecutors of Christ was bolstered. [ironically, mostly by Rome] |
| thugged out | Posted
on 26-Nov-03 05:18 PM
The word "arya" in the vedas or "airya" in the avesta has played a very important role in indo-european history, not in a good way in any way shape or form. The barbarian hordes that invaded the subcontinent, referred to themselves as Aryans, and haughtily proclaimed themselves far superior than the dark skinned dravidians( as evidenced by the "light vs darkness" allusion in the Rigveda, which points out to the fact that there was indeed a migratory wave, whether it be an invasion or simple immigration). Look, most of you are only focusing on the nomenclature but forgetting GENETIC evidences that seem to pile up as days progress. Why is it that the maternal DNA of Indians is more proto-Asian, or indigenous if you prefer, than the more foreign Y-chromosome or paternal DNA ??? Can anybody here answer that? And another fact is, the Swastika has its roots in the middle East, mesopotamia, to be exact. It is a universal symbol, and nobody has any right to pilfer or abuse it for their own gain like Hitler did. But we all know that Swastika's true symbolism has already been tainted. Prawin is right in that the ancient dravidians and Sumerians seemed to have linguistic similarities that in turn were related to Elamite. And if anybody here can shed light on why the subcontinent is so diverse if it weren't for conquests after conquests, it would be highly appreciated. For instance: 1. From the very light skinned Indians who seem to inundate bollywood and modeling agencies(the mediterranean physique):  2. To the wheatish Indian, which I would say make up the bulk of Indian population  3. To the darkskinned dravidians  4. To the australoids(of course there are no pure australoids remaining in India, but at least she shows some prognathy):  Can anybody explain it? The most accepted hypothesis as of now is that India was indeed invaded by fair haired people from the North. Check out this blondie from Pakistan. Ain't she something?  |
| prawin | Posted
on 26-Nov-03 09:45 PM
whenever my american friends take the well-beaten cry of the "melting pot," i smile them a smug smile, and say-- "you know nothing of the Himalayas." not that I know all that much, but it feels good, all the same. i have criminally reduced the history of migratory waves through the sub-continent to the mere fact that crossing the Himalayas would have been not very desirable to any particular wave of people. but it sure does simplify things--those from the Central Russian plains that crossed through passes at the western end of the Himalayas-Hindu Kush, those who came along the coast from Africa, those who came around the eastern end of the Himalaya--the fair-skinned, the dark skinned and the pale skinned--they all run up against the Himalayas in what is present day Nepal. the Bhilla, Brahmin and Kirat in BP Koirala's Sumnima, for me, are people who lend an alternative proof to Sankrityayan's [or, for that matter, Madanmani Dixit's] novels of Marxist reinterpretation of the history of the sub-continent. i have long ceased being a student of science, or social sciences, for that matter, but i have my reservations about the term "australoids," although I understand what you mean by the Dravidians [the East Ethopians, by some accounts]. as an individual, i have also believed that the present turmoil in Nepal is about bringing to the table of justice issues not dealt with in honesty through the ages--the subjugation of the aboriginal Dravidians [some accounts say that large eyed and nosed Dalits outside Kathmandu are mostly of Dravidian origin, and that the 4 jaat 36 barna slogan is a sham to cover this racial subjugation], and the conquest over the mongoloids [the Kirats, the Gurungs, the Magars, etc]. i wonder how an intellectual like BP, who recognized this division and wrote it down in quite a few novels, would talk of the Maoists today. also--i wonder if Sunkeshra maiya wasn't a blondie in the proper sense of the word. by stretching a somewhat grounded discussion into the reals of folklores, what i really mean is--the Khas people of Western Nepal and the Kumai Bahuns are certainly different from the Purbiya Upadhyayas, who had previously been living along Koshi, and in Bengal. Perhaps, even Nepal has seen numerous different waves of migration from the west, some as late as the 13th century. certainly--the Khas weren't as much Chhetris even towards Prithivi Narayan's campaign. but so much for that... whenever i am moved enough, i draw a swastika on one of my Jewish friend's arms. then i accuse him or her of being a racist for "coming into the conversation with prior prejudice." that is fun. |
| Bob Marley | Posted
on 26-Nov-03 10:30 PM
Wow! I feel like I'm in a history class. DHANANJAYA , THUGGED OUT and PRAWIN...thanks for the indept of our knowledge. Guess what? It's getting more confusing now. Let me ask you all, can you walk outside in public with a Swastika sign on your back pack, a tattoo or something. Why? do you really do it? And how do you explain to the people? What do you explain. You definetly would not say what you've written here. If you do, then nobody will understand or you'll be called crazy. What exactly do I need to tell if I want to get a tattoo of Swastika inorder to prove that it's not racism? Keep pouring more ...Thanks |
| AT | Posted
on 12-Dec-03 02:28 PM
Microsoft to cut swastikas from software Friday, December 12, 2003 Posted: 9:28 AM EST (1428 GMT) SEATTLE, Washington (Reuters) -- Microsoft Corp. said on Friday that its latest version of Office software inadvertently contained a font featuring two swastikas, and said it would offer tools to remove and replace the offending characters from the program. |
| AT | Posted
on 12-Dec-03 02:29 PM
- http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/biztech/12/12/microsoft.swastika.reut/index.html |
| Bob Marley | Posted
on 12-Dec-03 08:52 PM
You see.... If this symbol is going to dishonor Jews, what about other people like Hindus? Are they simply suppose to get scared just because Jews will be offended. Is Judism trying to dominate other religion? |
| ujol sherchan | Posted
on 15-Dec-03 04:50 AM
Thugged out posted a pic of a blonde girl from Pakistan. Very Interesting! The girl in the pic is a Kalash girl from the Chitral District of the North Western Frontier Province of Pakistan. The Kalash women and girls wear black robes with cowrie-studded headgears. They are not Muslims; they have their own religion which smacks of animism. They are also called the black Kafirs - 'kafirs' meaning 'infidels', which is clearly a politically incorrect label. How come the Pakistani girl in the pic has blonde hair is an intersting question. The theory is this and it is a controversial theory: the Kalash are descended from the army of Alexander the Great; hence, they have Greek/Macedonian ancestry. While Alexander the Great's army did pass through northern parts of Pakistan around 200-300 BC, it is not clear if they passed through Chitral or if some war-weary lot settled in Chitral. The Gandhara civilisation did grow up in northern Pakistan (remember Gandhari, wife of Dhritarashtr, of the Mahabharat fame) and was very much influenced by Greek, Scythian and a host of other cultures - as is clear from the archaeoogical sites in and around Northern Pakistan, and the statues of Lord Buddha from the Gandhara period (which are rendered in Greco-Roman style) .The Kalash, confined largely to three parallel valleys of Birir, Bumboorat, and Rumboor - which I had the pleasure of visiting last September - claim that their ancestors came from the land of 'Syam' (which no one knows where it is to this day) and that they are descendend from Alexander's army. What to believe and what not to believe. But they are a fascinating minority nonetheless with a very strong micro-society, which is slowly coming undone because of their conversion to Islam. Many scholars of late refute this theory of Greek/Macedonian ancenstry, however. Not only the Kalash people but also many Muslims in northern parts of Pakistan and even Afghanistan have blonde hair and blue eyes. May be DNA analysis, which I believe is underway, will help shed light on their ancestry and provide explanation for their blonde hair and blue eyes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
| gaaunle | Posted
on 19-Dec-03 10:52 PM
My name is Swastika which I always took for granted untill I landed in U.S. where people opened their mouth wide open in shock at hearing my name. Some ask me to change my name or get a nick name. But I rather prefer to go on telling everyone what that means in our culture. I am not irritated by their apparent lack of cultural exposure and open mindedness. What I fear is what Hilter has left behind as an omen...the continuity of hatred. What i fear is how people absolutely hate the "Swastiika" symbol, while some people strongly hold strong to their cultural significance in that word. Hilters long dead. But the hatred continues. What I fear is if "Swastika" in itself will trigger a conflict between two groups of people for whom it holds different meanings and significance. |
| DP | Posted
on 19-Dec-03 11:30 PM
I have a suggestion:Begin the Third World War.Design a Jhanda with a Cross (a little bit modified) on it.And teach these Khaire Badars a lesson. |
| thugged out | Posted
on 21-Dec-03 08:02 AM
Yes, she is a Kalasha from Chitral District of NWFP akin to Nuristanis of Afghanistan. These two ethnic groups are very alike culturally, linguistically, and also physically. Ujo Sherchen, then perhaps you might be familiar with "In the footsteps of Alexander" that PBS likes to show once in a while. It was pretty amazing actually that pagans exist in Pakistan to this day, although conversion is assimilating them and almost making their religion/culture extinct. Have you noticed that when there is blondism in Afghan/ Northern Pakistanis, it's usually women and children? Children, when they grow up, have darker hair, even when they were blonde as kids. So, it's not very easy to find adult blonds in that area, although there exist some who are. There are also some ethnic groups in Kashmir that I found to be European looking. Again, it's the children who look more European than adults. This kid is a dard from Kashmir, although he does seem to show some oriental admixture. I have actually seen some other pics of Dards..most of them show visible East Asian/oriental features.  Here is a Hunza from Northern Pakistan: http://www.geocities.com/stardan01/images/kidsx.jpg Then there's another group very similar to the Hunzas, called Burushos. Their language seems to be an anomaly as it does not seem to have similarities with ANY other languages. |
| karmapa | Posted
on 22-Dec-03 01:10 AM
Yes, yeah the Nuristanis of Afghanistan were the Red Kafirs before they 'saw the light' - ie. converted. But for all practical purposes, the Red Kafirs are no more. They were assimilated when the Durand Line was drawn in the last decade of the the 19th Century. Many Nuristanis (from the Nuristan of Afghanistan) have lately moved into the NWFP, Pakistan in the aftermath of the Afghan war (the one led by US against the Talibans) and, ironically, are even more religiously motivated than others, and is making inroads into Chitral and is believed to be converting the Kalash, although I couldn't verify this. The process of transforming Kafiristan ('Land of Infidels') - which refers to the three valleys where the Kalash today live - into Nuristan ('Land of Light') continues apace. Your observation is right on: Yes, it is USUALLY the women and children who have blonde hair. But I saw several men with blonde hair (it is not golden blond like that of the Scandinivians) in both Lower and Upper Chitral, but you can still say that the men had dirty blonde hair JUST like that of the young boy in the pic you've posted above. However, most Kalash people do NOT have blonde hair - only a very small percentage of them do. Nope, I haven's seen that PBS documentary...but as I mentioned in my earlier posting above, scholars of late refute the theory of their Greek/Macedonian ancestry. DNA analysis may help...but it wouldn's still answer literally hundreds of unanswered questions swirling around these fascinating people and their culture, despite these people having been studied to death over the years. --------------------------------------------------------------- 
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