| Username |
Post |
| kalekrishna |
Posted
on 02-Jan-04 01:35 AM
How much wise it is for leaders (aPolitical and unstudent like) to start another front for confrontation. Is not the existing problem enough to pull down the nation, that opportunity for backlashes of our poor and already victimized fellow bretherns be created by some stupid and clueless nation destroyers.
KK
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| Spark |
Posted
on 02-Jan-04 01:48 AM
Our neta are "ghar ko bagh, ban ko syal". We have yet to see the impact of burning Indian PM's effigy. That will make protesting political parties weak, and royals strong.
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| Spark |
Posted
on 02-Jan-04 01:58 AM
Just read indian embassy news. It says, effigy burning of India PM will be most unfortunate if that is true. Our respectable neta Girija and recently honored bidhyarthi neta were speaking in that protest program. Aba yi bajjia haru ko ke khairiyat chha ta? political pundits like Biswo, nepe, M.P., IF, Arunima ko ke abadharana chha ta yes barema?
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| suva chintak |
Posted
on 02-Jan-04 11:38 AM
Happy New Year to all! May the Sajha conversations become even more interesting and enjoyable in 2004!
This thread certainly points in the right direction! What follows is the response of the Indian Embassy to Atal Bihari's effigy burning in Kathmandu (from Nepalnews.com):
Effigy burning unfortunate: Indian Embassy
The Indian Embassy said Thursday the burning of effigies of Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee at Ratna Park was "unfortunate", if it was true.
In a press statement Thursday, the Embassy said, if the report is true then "it is a most unfortunate incident which is highly objectionable in character and aimed at undermining the close, cordial and friendly relations between India and Nepal."
"The Embassy of India hopes that appropriate action would be taken against those responsible for such an outrageous action, showing disrespect to the leader of a friendly neighbouring country," said the statement.
The statement follows the burning of effigies of Indian PM Vajpayee by the protesting students on Thursday. The students earlier said the Indian PM interfered in Nepal's internal politics "by arresting a CPN-UML leader Ishwor Pokhrel in New Delhi and asking him questions related to Nepal's internal affairs." nepalnews.com mr Jan 2
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| rbaral |
Posted
on 02-Jan-04 12:46 PM
CPN UML must have thought twice before meeting with the Maobadis in India. I would be glad with Indian alertness for enquiring a person belonging to a party that secretly conducts meetings with Maoists.
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| suva chintak |
Posted
on 02-Jan-04 01:10 PM
Folks, the irritated sounding note from the Indian embassy was enough to act like a bucket of ice water over the recent swagger and bravado of our courageous students. I find it hard to understand why or how the same students who defiantly ask for the king's head and smash the Nepali government in such wanton fashion suddenly turn into meek rats as soon as they hear a cough, as it were, from the Indian Embassy. Pray, what is the secret that instantly turns mighty lions into pitiable rats? Or is it the old case of "gharko sher, banko shyal?"
More on the intriguing saga launched by Kamrad Ishwor Pokhrel's secret trip to New Delhi, his detention by Indian intelligence, and the Bihari's effigy burning in Kathmandu from Nepalnews.com:
NSU, NSF set back, ANNFSU takes responsibility
KOL Report
KATHMANDU, Jan 2 - The student wings of Nepali Congress and Nepal Sadhvawana Party have refused their involvement in burning effigy of Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajhpayee during protest on Thursday.
Issuing separate statements Friday, Nepal Students’ Union (NSU) and Nepal Students’ Forum (NSF) denied their involvement in the program.
Meanwhile, Rajendra Rai, president of All Nepal National Free Students Union (ANNFSU), the student wing of CPN-UML said ANNFSU is ready to take responsibility of the incident. “The protesting students burnt the effigy, he said, adding, “It is fruitless to ask which organization the students represent.”
If other student organizations shrink back to shoulder the responsibility, ANNFSU is ready for that, he added.
He, however, claimed that the incident would not affect the joint protest programs of seven student organizations. Similarly, General Secretary of NSU Gagan Thapa ruled out any possibilities of split in the union.
Earlier, the Indian Embassy in Kathmandu termed the incident ‘most unfortunate’ and ‘highly objectionable in character’. (bg)
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| Spark |
Posted
on 02-Jan-04 04:01 PM
The latest Indian embassy related news indicates how sterile are the student wings associated with political parties. Any further effigy burning programs there??/
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 02-Jan-04 07:26 PM
Spark ji,
Political Pundit ta hoina euta samanya paryabexak ko haisiyat ho, mero abadharana dehaaya bamojim ko chha...
I think what we are witnessing on the street is a minor manifestation of a major social-political change that has already occured in our society while keeping our so called mainstream political pundits (for whom the constitutional monarchy is the last word) in oblivion. For being a part of a major social-political evolution, I think it makes more sense to look at the big picture in order to understand the minor details.
Although, most of the political pundits found out it on Push 1 when the students uttered the unspeakable word finally, the fact is that the majority of the students were pro-republicanism since long ago. Thanks to the strong influence of Akhil-krantikari in schools and colleges on one hand and the absurd royal as well as political parties' activities on the other.
As for NC and UML affiliated students, although their mental transition to pro-republicanism is complete, the technical transition, which is sometimes confusing and sometimes painful too, has just started. Three student leaders statements at the court represent such confusion. Call it a 'legal' confusion.
Student's strong reaction to the Delhi incident with UML leader, in my view, is a minor 'diplomatic' confusion of sort. Yes, it is a sensational news from the news' point of views. However, I do not think it is going to make any significant negative impact on the social-political movement we are talking about.
Let's try to deconstruct this incident. First, what exactly were students angry about ? Sure, the rude behavior of the Indian police to Mr. Pokharel. But I do not think that is all to it.
Put the following two pieces together.
One: The students are chanting this slogan- 'Le le Maobadi banduk le, Gyanendre-lai padkaai de'. Clearly, students have acknowledged the power of Maobadi banduk. Afterall that's what, among other factors, is keeping Gyanendra from repeating 2017 in full scale.
Two: The India factor. Everybody knows India is soft to Nepali Maoists. However, from time to time they are compelled to show some diplomatic gimmicks. (I do not fully share the views of mainstream political pundits regarding the Indian intention. However, let's not talk about that here). Now, what Indians did to Mr. Pokharel in Delhi is, as a gimmick or genuinly, to discourage him from having contact with the Maoists.
Put these two pieces together and look through our traditional anti-Indian sentiments and jingoism. Voila, there you go burning the effigy of Vajpayee.
And as I said, the news may be sensational. But it's not a big deal. It will be left behind as a minor incident. I do not think India is going to make it an excuse to come and occupy Nepal. There is no need to lose our sleep over this nightmare.
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| big thinker |
Posted
on 03-Jan-04 01:22 AM
It's very unfortunate that we don't have any leaders in the Nepalese politics today.All we have is Politicians-thas what they call themselves.These so called politicians can't take any stand or back up thier views or statements. They are alwas looking for an opportunity that the situation will create not somthing that they plan to create. They don't have any agenda or plan. They have never been able to win the hearts and mind of our Nepalese people. Sometimes they shout for republic and sometimes, mornarchial democratic system.The major two political groups are nothing but a bunch of mothe fukas. They just simply don't know how to react and solve the Moist Poblem. they are trying to pt up a voice so that they won't get lost between the power struggle of the Maoist and the king. they re dding fire to the current insurgency by deviating the Nepalese pulic to an even darker side that we have never seen.If you a reader belong to these of these parties then please, for our mother nepal, help find a leader in your party, who is just another moron but a leader, who cna bring changes, win the hearts of the people and for the most , who has a vision, not you baburam!! REal slim shady please stand up!!
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| isolated freak |
Posted
on 03-Jan-04 10:36 AM
I have no idea what is happening in Nepal right now and I don't claim that what I write below represents everybody's views:
I think this effigy episode is an irrefutable evidence of India's involvement in Nepali Party politics. The leaders, who stayed mum when the students went on destruction and chanting anti-constitutional slogans spree were quick in expressing their "regret" and "dis-satisfaction" against the Indian PMs effigy burning. This is when I say, King Mahendra was quite right to introduce the Panchayat system. [Of course, this is my view and I don't expect everyone to buy it. If you agree, that is fine with me, if you don't agree, that is also perfectly fine with me since all the Sajha visitors are wise and intelligent and I in no way want to influence their thinking. And going by the same token, as a student of IR and Politics, silly reasoning is not enough to persuade me to change my views. Unless and until you have valid and legitimate evidence to prove me otherwise, do not think that I will buy whatever you write and do not go on blaming me of being a feudal oppressor when I don't agree with your views. We are all mature here, so let's have a levelheaded discussion without ridiculing each others' beliefs. Seriously, I am tired of this accusing and defending game in Sajha. And since, one of my new year's resolutions is spending less time on Sajha and this probably represents one of my last posts on Sajha, I do not think I will be able to answer to every accusations against me and I simply don't want my readers, if there are any, to feel that I am avoiding discussion. I have my own limitations these days and those bar me from being a regular Sajha contributor]
If you ask me my views on this whole episode, I will say, although the incident can be termed unfortunate at the political and diplomatic level, I find it as something commendable. Yes, my biases against India are what are making me write this, but make no mistake, being a student of Political Science and International Relations, I find that this incident in a very "unconventional" way represents the revival of Nepali nationalism. India's sheltering the Maoist leaders and it's interfering in Nepal's internal matters have resulted in a widespread anti-Idnianism in Nepal. This effigy burning shows that our students who are on the loose due to the misguidance of the political parties and their own student leaders have still retained some degree of consciousness regarding nationalism. The effigy burning although an isolated incident is linked to the broader and bolder representation of Nepali nationalism.
How do I define nationalism? [Note: I am using I, not we, so these are my views and if you agree with it, that's fine, if you don't agree, that's fine with me.]
Nationalism is something that binds the Nepalis together. To make it simple: Nationalism is a common culture or a common cause. Since its almost impossible to have a common culture in a highly diversified Nepal, our leaders focused on the common cause. From the time of Prithvi Narayan Shah to the end of Panchayat, the whole of Nepal was binded and united by the Southern threat. A racist nationalism but still a rational nationalism given that the East Indian Company and the Republic of India both tried to control Nepal. And this common cause united the Nepalis together for 275 years. However, with the reintroduction of the multi party system and our new and neophyte leaders' irresponsible behaviors and statements during their visits to India somehow led to the total destruction of Nepali nationalism. Instead of uniting people, our leaders went on dividing people, which resulted in various ethnic nationalism movements in Nepal. Thanks to India and its exceptionally brilliant bureaucrats. I wish we had the same powerful bureaucracy in Nepal with exceptionally brilliant bureaucrats. Anyway, instead of identifying ourselves as Nepal’s, we started identifying ourselves as members of various ethnic groups. Nobody cared about the India threat and nobody cared about an even bigger threat of the national division. Our leaders were too busy to fuel these movements and securing their chairs in Singha Durbar. Just as Plato said, you can expect good governments in countries where the leaders are reluctant to rule than in countries in which the leaders are always eager to rule. But, as any anthropologist will say, when a new system is imposed, people are happy for some time but after a while, people start to show their resistance towards this new system and to show their defiance towards the new system, they revert back to their old ways or the old system's ways [The theory of Resistance]. This is what is happening in Nepal right now- Suddenly our lost nationalism is resurfacing as evident by the effigy burning incident and we should "cautiously" welcome it because in this age of Globalization in general and SAFTA in particular, we cannot let our ultra-nationalism hamper our progress and development. We can't remain isolated but this doesn't mean, we have to let the regional powers interfere in our internal matters. The anti-Indianis shown by the students have to be addressed in diplomatic ways on our foreign policy agenda and other domestic policies. How? This still remains a mystery to me.
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| suva chintak |
Posted
on 03-Jan-04 07:27 PM
Dear IF,
Ni Hou!
Hwa yu doyin? Hpe yu hyd gyd halidu. (That is the extent of my Chinese at present. If you had trouble with my accent, this is what I was saying: "How are you doing? Hope you had a good holiday." Oh, did I mention that this is in Cantonese after Mongolian hotpot! :))
Read your posting above, I hope you don't stop posting in Sajha just because of the intemperate adjectives hurled your way by some of us. You really bring something original and interesting to Sajha discussions, I think your perspective adds a new dimension to the richness of our political and cultural debates. Along with your insight, one must also appreciate your civility and gentlemanly curtesy in these debates. Your fine example must be having an effect here: I think the level of civility has definitely improved over the months. As more of us realize that we want to be discussing about ideas and events, and not casting aspersions on each other, the tone will improve further. A day will soon come when people can respect the person they are holding a discussion with! So I am sure that 'civil society' is definitely going to dawn on Sajha someday soon, and you will have contributed to the process! So as Sajha's resident representative in China, I hope you will keep us keep posting your interesting views and keep us posted on that part of the world.
By the way, why is the Chinese govt upset over the visit to the Shinto temple by Kazumi? Are they just jealous with his hair style or what?
You bring interesting points on Bihari's effigy burning, I was thinking about the nationalist angle. What intrigued me was how quickly the powerful student organizations turned contrite and apologetic after the Indian embassy issued an statement. After all Atal Bihari is an elected Indian leader, he is used to being protested against and burnt as an effigy...after all it is a part and parcel of Indian political culture (I dare say we got this from them). Now it is not just the students, Madhab Nepal just tendered an public apology for the effigy burning! Not to be out done, our Surya Thapa also issued an statement to say that burning the effigy of Atal was illegal and direspectful!
Just because someone in Ratna Park burnt an effigy of the Indian Prime Minister, why does Nepal suddenly have to turn repentent? This is what caught my attention. Does it say something about who really rules Nepal, about the source of power? It is OK to burn effigy of our king, prime minister, but it becomes a moral sin to do the same to the Indian prime minister? I was trying to understand the political logic behind this.
SC
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| Spark |
Posted
on 03-Jan-04 09:14 PM
Nepe, when you wrote " 'Le le Maobadi banduk le, Gyanendre-lai padkaai de'" you too recognized republicanism possible in nepal using maoist's banduk as a last resort. doesn't that indicate the sterility of nepali congress or UML? do you think maoists will recognize NC or UML once it drives gyanendra ji out of power? you brought up many unanswered questions. again, burning effigy of indian PM is not a trivial incidence. india may ignore this time, but what about the intimidated response of student organization of protesting parties after indian embassy released its statement?? the state of psychology of nepali is in such a condition that even india swallow nepal like sikkim, you won't find much crowd in streets to protest that. janata haru ekdam birakti sakeka chhan. yo desh kasai le thekka ma chalai diye hunthyo bhanne jasto manasikata bhai sakeko chha. i don't know who are the real players behind, but that's the real situation there. honestly i tell you that all nepali will celebrate if the country is overtaken by usa. in this age, morally that may not happen but i am just telling the state of mind of nepali over there.
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| failedstate |
Posted
on 03-Jan-04 11:54 PM
Spark:
Good points. Rats usually jump off the sinking ship. Poor students!
Remember, MKN removed pictures of his beloved netas (Mao and Stalin) when the Amrcican Embassador went to meet him. Just wait a few days until one of the netas becomes the PM. You will never hear a word of Republicanism then. They all know that they will be overrun by the Maoists like a rising flood. The NC neta (it does not matter whether it was Deuba or someelse) went to Bush begging for arms and support and got $ 34 mill.
The only reason politician like Girija is raising the Republican slogan is because he knows that if he does not make noises the King will fry his ass using the CIAA.
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| failedstate |
Posted
on 04-Jan-04 12:07 AM
Further Spark:
I just came back from Nepal and Spark you are right about the Nepali state of mind. Many middle class families want security and the poors want jobs. They all think everyone is CHOR and nobody cares about them. The result: status quo. I did not hear anything about the Republicanism, at least among the people I hung out with --professionals, journalists and a bureaucrats bunch. Even the politicans were joking about the point about the Republicanism. Many did not think it was very wise at this point to even think about that. That's one of the reasons why they opposed the election of Constituency Assembly. Unless the civil societies join the crowd in the streets like in 1990, this Republican threat is not credible no one is worried about it. The status quo people are taking advantage of it. But, things can change... but not without a bloodshed.
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| jaya_nepal |
Posted
on 04-Jan-04 04:32 PM
In my view - may be I am wrong - just view.
Since the onset of democracy in 1990 we all have seen the depreciation of Nepal in all areas - be it development, peace or anything else. Political leaders like Girija, Nepal and others have been ruling the nation and plunged it in the early dark ages. I am sure no one doubts it.
Nepal is of great interest for our big brotherly neighbor - India. India will always make sure that there is an Indian support govt in Nepal, so that there is no Chinese influence. Also India would never occupy Nepal as it did with Sikkim - this is because India will have to maintain its army throughout the Himalayas which would defenitely be very expensive. Another factor - a landlocked country like ours cannot do anything without India. We all remember the scenario when India closed all its ties with Nepal.
It is obvious that all the leaders would apologise for the effigy burning incidence, coz they all want to come in power. And without Indian support it is not possible.
On recent interview on Dishanirdesh - foreign intervention in nepal - leader Jalanath Khanal claimed that Minister Kamal Thapa should have consulted with all the political parties regarding the issue rather than commenting on the issue in the media. Well, my point is, no one has been co-operating with the government then why would Minister Thapa consult them. All the leader say an all party governemnt is the only way out of the political deadlock. Why dont they join the Surya Bahadur Thapa government and expediate the peace process. WELL THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BECOME THE PRIME MINISTER, YET AGAIN.
No matter who the Prime Minister is or who the Home Minister is, the main thing at this time should be that all political parties should co-operate with the governemnt and come up with a peaceful resolution. Demonstrations and rallies would only destabilize democracy.
These are just my views - may be I am wrong.
jaya_nepal
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| failedstate |
Posted
on 04-Jan-04 06:23 PM
Jaya_nepal:
You are not wrong. Many in Nepal share your view. The only point I will beg to differ is the one about parties cooperating with Kamal Thapa. Major parties cannot be expected to follow the hankpicked royalists. The bottom line is that poeple are sick and tired of everyone. If India were to want a monarchyless country in Nepal --Republic of Nepal--it could do that within a week. But why would they? They are pretty happy with Bhutan: they are getting two things from Bhutan: Shanti and hydro power. From Nepal they get nothing but headaches. So, to them, comparatively speaking, a more calmer country is what they want. A corrupt, anti-Indian and a rogue nation in the north without anyone in charge is the last thing they have in mind. So, who do you think fits that bill, at least from the Indian perspective? You have already answered that question. Untill then the circus will continue.
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 05-Jan-04 12:16 AM
Spark ji,
You wrote:
Nepe, when you wrote " 'Le le Maobadi banduk le, Gyanendre-lai padkaai de'" you too recognized republicanism possible in nepal using maoist's banduk as a last resort. doesn't that indicate the sterility of nepali congress or UML? do you think maoists will recognize NC or UML once it drives gyanendra ji out of power?
Not really. Not that I do not recognize what banduk can do. Just look how the world, okay, the US, got rid of Saddam, the most notorious tyrant of our time. However, I still believe in the superiority of non-violent method over violent insurgency and I am totally against using violence as a first thing to try.
As for Maoist banduk, I have always been against it- both against the Maoism and against banduk.
All along, I have been advocating for pro-nonviolence democratic forces to snatch from the Maoists the political cause [of republicanism] which the Maoists were/are raising as an adopted child (because it was wandering there as an orphan) and various social-economic causes that got free ride in the Maoist wagon, once again because they got neglected in a confusing atmosphere of power struggle amid the national denial about the power monarchy still was holding. The key word here is denial. Our political parties are now at a difficult phase of confronting that denial. In absence of internal shake-up which would have help emerge a new leadership to take them trough necessary self-reflection, confrontation with the denial they had been living and take bold and painful decisions, our youth are taking the initiative. Things are messy, confusing and imperfect right now. However, that's the way things are in life. The main thing is the momentum (the force and the direction), which I think is and to where it should be.
The Maoists are fated to be collapsed under the weight of their own anarchronistic ideology. The only way they can survive is to accept what the world today accepts as the universal standard of democracy. There are reasons for apprehension and there are reasons for cautious optimism. Only future can give a definite answer.
As for popular frustrations and sense of surrender, I do not think it has reached to a level to feel fine with, God forbid, an annexation of Nepal with India. However, we can rule out that possibility if the violent conflict went on for a long time. Basically, I think, if the king decided to keep on fighting for continuation of increase in his power, then our future as a country is doomed.
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 05-Jan-04 12:22 AM
The following sentences-
"However, we can rule out that possibility if the violent conflict went on for a long time. Basically, I think, if the king decided to keep on fighting for continuation of increase in his power, then our future as a country is doomed. "
Should read as,
However, we can not rule out that possibility if the violent conflict went on for a long period of time. Basically, I think, if the king decided to keep on fighting for the continuation of or an increase in his power, then our future as a country is doomed.
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| jaya_nepal |
Posted
on 05-Jan-04 01:17 AM
Failedstate: You are right about the Indian stance. Its a matter of few minutes for them to find their representative government in Nepal. But its too late for this. Even US is totally influencing Nepal these days. India and US are jointly working on Nepal. India cannot force anything in Nepal without US's approval. Thas another issue to be taken care of. And US would never want that as they already spend a lot in Nepal.
The problem of resolving this political turmoil is the political parties will have to co-operate with the government though it is handpicked royalists. The Indian BJP government will never let down the King's government because of its hindutva policies. And even the Indian side is aware of the fact that all our leaders are nothing but power hunger and curropt. They would rely more on King than the leaders.
Note that people celebrated when King Gyanendra took control. No one wants these leaders back to Singha Durbar. They are all tried. And whatever agitations are goin on - be it students or leaders - none of the people are supporting this. Its only their personal interests.
So, failedstate look back and see if you still dont want the leaders to co-operate with the handpicked royalists, atleast they are nationalists and know what ther are doing.
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| failedstate |
Posted
on 05-Jan-04 02:08 AM
JN:
The political parties will not toe the royalist line.
You are right in saying that the US and India have vested interest especially because of the Khamer Rouge symphathising Maoists. The US and India will not let Nepal fall in the hands of these Maoists, so this Republican talk is not going to go anywhere, unless the palace becomes a tyrranical force supporing a right wing military death squads killing scores of civilians. They have not crossed that threshold yet. They are not even close. They may go there if unchecked.
So, the debate is not between Monarchy versus Republicanism. It is democracy versus "non-democracy." To that end, the people have done a cost-benefit analysis and have concluded that, under the so-called "bad" democracy of the last 12 years, the hopes were dashed. At least their record was not any better than the earlier system (e.g., in corruption and security). So, why would they go on the street to fight for the same corrupt bunch to give them a free reign by removing the king --ie. Republicanism. It does not make any sense.
For many regular Joe security is important and that's why they like to see RNA take charge (without being a tyrranical force obviously), and the republicanism is not even in their radar. Many civil society (at least some that I have come in contact on individual basis) are not even bothering about this republican stuff. Wishing is one thing, but the practical reality within a realist possibility is something different. It makes a good slogan (i.e., Republicanism), with another round of hope-giving movement that the political parties can use to dupe the people one more time without taking any responsibility for their own corrupt failures and flaws.
In my judgement, people will not listen to their Republican talk without first being convinced that: (1) the political force can solve the problem better (2) can provide security (3) solve the maoist violence (4) be less corrupt, (5) can bring communal harlomy (6) will not make it a state of India and that (6) the king is actually killing scores of civilians and he is a serious threat to democracy.
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