| Sajha.com Archives | |
| Username | Post |
| pipaldanda | Posted
on 10-Apr-04 09:58 AM
I read this (see below) in the weekly paper: This is shocking to see how political leaders work more for destruction than construction of the country. Some how this has to be stopped. "According to a tyre dealer at Kalimati, a week before the beginning of agitation, he sold 1,000 pieces of old tyres and dropped them in various corners of capital. “We also supply the broken bricks in five different places in the valley,” the broker said on condition of anonymity. The demonstrators - who are responsible for igniting the flames - are professionals rather than regular workers of political parties. From throwing stones to uprooting the railings, political parties always hire professionals. There is a set price for uprooting railings, destroying vehicles, burning tyres and pelting stones. One person gets Rs.300 each for burning the tyres and more money for other functions and taking part in pitched battle. One of the achievements of the last 12 years has been that a skillful professional group has evolved that can wage violent demonstrations. From destabilizing Koirala’s government to Thapa’s government, these groups were hired for all purposes and at all times. As long as these groups of trained professionals are there, every government, whether it is democratic or autocratic, has to pass through these kinds of situation. This group will be ready to do everything on the ground that they should be paid. A few years ago, the current prime minister Surya Bahadur Thapa and leaders of other five parties had hired similar bunch of people demonstrating against then prime minister Girija Prasad Koirala. Now Koirala with other five parties are recruiting similar workers to press Thapa." The faces of political leaders who call general strikes change but that of the people who are used to destroy vehicles and vandalize public properties have remained the same. The only difference is that while every incumbent prime ministers termed these demonstrators as violent forces, those in the opposition hail them as revolutionary. Issuing his statement, Congress leader Koirala - who has seen many violent agitations in his tenure as a prime minister – blamed the government for igniting the violence. “It is the government agents who are responsible for all mayhem,” said Congress leader Koirala, who knows who these forces really are. His compulsion is that these forces can be used to create trouble for the King who has ignored the parties. Interestingly, when Koirala was addressing his party workers blaming the government for all violence, his student leaders were busy burning tyres at the premises of campuses destroying public vehicles. “We are not responsible for what happened in the streets,” said Arjun Narsingh K.C. spokesperson of Nepali Congress, who received a clean chit just a few days ago from the Commission of Investigation of Abuse of Authority (CIAA) from corruption charges. Whoever may rule, the country will have to see this kind of culture for a long time to come. Until and unless all moderate political parties denounce such acts, they will continue. Every new government will be welcomed by the flames of tyres, bandh and broken railings. " |
| yadav | Posted
on 10-Apr-04 03:22 PM
No. |
| jivman | Posted
on 10-Apr-04 04:28 PM
It would be tough to say according to your articles. And certainly your articles sounds very true. Does it make a difference as long as we have same old netas??????????? |
| thaag | Posted
on 10-Apr-04 05:16 PM
There is no question that dirty politics is destroying Nepal. Every politician dreams of beaing a prime minister and those who become one dreams of never giving it up. They do whatever it takes, all sam..danda.ved niti will be implied. These political parties doesn't realize that they are in democratic process, yet they behave like a dictator. Prime example of this is Girija, if he is not a prime minister, he will do whatever to bing down the exisisting prime minister and start election. Girija is responsible for all this mess, his desire to be a dictator(like) is the root cause of failure of democracy in Nepal. Of course Girija had done some good things , nobody will doubt him about being a leader to bring democracy in Nepal. Sadly, as he was grown up in dictetorship monarchy, he saw that power belongs to a dictetor, he never saw that power belongs to people in democratic system. He assumed he was a democratic dictetor when he got the power. If Girija was educated he would understand the democratic process, sadly he had very little education so he had to rely on his surroundings who exploited country even more. He is responsible for maintaining culture of curruption from former system(even worsen it). Girija is somewhat responsible creation of maoshits although it was not all his fault. |
| lll_lll | Posted
on 10-Apr-04 05:35 PM
I wouldn't have any inclination to believe the truthfulness of this aritcle. First of all, the author didn't cite any soruce for this article (i.e. the name of the paper etc.) and also there were many grammetical and spelling errors, just too many to be a paper article I guess, and also I think rather than burning new tires form the tire vendor, they would choose to burn old unusable tires. Just my observaitons, I might be wrong !! |
| pipaldanda | Posted
on 10-Apr-04 08:07 PM
Believe it or not it was published in Friday " Spotlight" under the title "violent agitation" similar modus Operandi. I am sure this is what is actually happening in Nepal today. |
| nirlaz | Posted
on 11-Apr-04 12:57 PM
Hello III_III, Looks like you didn't read the article properly... what makes you the tires sold were new ones.. it's clearly written "1000 pieces of old tyres" Still wondering why the hell you think the article has many many grammatical mistakes. Even spellings of your own "grammetical" is WRONG. You think you might be wron. But reality is you are TOTALLY WRONG. This is a real article published in SPOTLIGHTS!!!!! The link is here: - http://www.nepalnews.com.np/contents/englishweekly/spotlight/2004/apr/apr09/coverstory.htm |
| Biswo | Posted
on 11-Apr-04 02:02 PM
Yea, if you guys believed this then I am really surprised at your willingness not to see through the spins. I mean if Surya Bdr Thapa used to employ those goons, he definitely know where/who they are and can take action against them. Why is he not doing that? |
| Ebaje | Posted
on 11-Apr-04 02:25 PM
Nepal is Burning Guys while Gyane is having gootime in Pokhara. 
|
| czar | Posted
on 11-Apr-04 03:11 PM
Agent provocateurs seem to be an essential tool of statecraft in banana republics and emerging democracies. Even in a long democratic nation like India, politicos have their own stable of thugs. No party has much hope of winning any election without the muscle to intimidate opposition party workers, capture booths or keep a lid on things in the constituencies of every ‘leader.’ One such college ‘leader’ I met was reputedly related to Atal Bihari Vajpaee. That fellow was fearless, standing up to a crowd of Akali Dal workers armed with swords and making them back down, heading off what could have been a bloody confrontation in a college election nearly gone awry. ‘Rudi’ was charismatic, intelligent fellow and I wasn’t at all surprised to read him quoted, as deputy minister, an \article in the Indian press some time a sometime ago. I smiled to myself and thought ‘Rudi’, you ole reprobate, you’ve climbed pretty high up the grease pole, huh. But I digress here, so back to the tale. ‘Rudi’ often had a number of very tough looking individuals streaming in and out of his hostel room at odd hours. In the midst of a strike one late summer, I recognized seeing some of his ‘buddies’ engaged in a free for all with the riot police. Another time, when I was in high school, I recollect meeting a fellow who was reputedly one such ‘very serious individual’. Contrary to popular imagination, he was not an uncouth, unshaved foul-mouthed hulk. Au contraire, in a lengthy conversation with him at a motorbike dealer’s workshop, he struck me as being very well read. He held forth, in a most articulate manner, on politics, poetry and automobiles. He then waded in to clean up and configure, according to factory specs, the settings on the dual Mikuni carburetors of his bike. All the \while explaining the finer points to me. I was a rapt listener, given my interest in matters mechanical I had no notion of who he was then, only later was I given a snapshot of his ‘work’. It was reputed he was one very cold-blooded gent who ‘dealt with problems’. I’d observed the valley SP and a DIG, no lightweights in KTM society, treat him in a very deferential manner. Sometimes we’d cross paths and he always called out a cheery hello, despite me being a fucche. His urbane and suave manners belied his sideline as a strong arm of the ruling clan. I determinedly followed Civil Aviation regulations and steered clear of his airspace! [And before some confused soul sticks their tongue at me again, readers are assured I much prefer the spectator’s gallery. Touche! :) ] |
| An Indun Poet | Posted
on 11-Apr-04 04:00 PM
I am pretty certain this is some load of crap. If its not-- why annoynimity? I have hard time believing in anonomous news. And master Conspirator and his Chamcha's Dr. Surya Bdr Thapa seem to put up these things to disrupt: 1. The fact is that there were some goons sent by Kamal Thapa in the agitation. This backfired. 2. They came up with new tactics to send the agitation outside Ringroad- which was quite a failure. 3. Now still seeing the uprising catching some steam- PM and the goons are trying new ways- PM holding internal talks with the parties. The parties asking PM to shoot some "andonal karis". GS with that satanic smile and PM with that sarcastic one. Is PM not the one who though attack in Bhojpur was nothing...... but had to shut up when Beni happened. Isn't elections going to happen--- what a load of lies. |
| YounggunaaZZ | Posted
on 11-Apr-04 04:20 PM
Ohh aight aight first if those kids on the pic if they got caught they all gonna get killed damnn at least they should have wear something to cover their face or sumthing. neways and secondly i can't understand how dumb nepali jantaa become still running after politicians. Bringing democracy in nepal has jus degraded its value and all that was good in there. All the politicians have eaten up the wealth and now they aren't getting anything they act like they are fighting for countrys freedom but later on they are gonna sh!t on the same plate they eat. If i could i would be a maoist too but its disadvantage from both side from soilders and people. I know they all r gonna get killed and i would be happy if jus no one rules over the country. no king or politician specially. The r all fags. Well got lots to talk bout em but aint got no time. peace yo...holla |
| cool_keta | Posted
on 11-Apr-04 05:31 PM
omg what the hell is going on in our country. WHy are people begin so stupid by orgnizing protests, damaging properties, nepal bandh. Dont they realize that it will only hurt already bad economy. Only god knows what will happen to nepal now. Sometimes i am ashamed of being nepali. |
| jaya_nepal | Posted
on 11-Apr-04 08:24 PM
I certainly agree to the article published in the Spotlight. Coz, born and brought up in Jhapa, I have seen most of the party leaders, both Congress and Communist, bringing truck loaded people from Bihar. They were paid on daily basis to campaign during the elections. Secondly, if the party leaders or Maoists wanted to do something good for the nation, they wouldnt involve in this rampant protests and destruction of national property. Everything has been destroyed. And this decade of democracy has definitely shown the characters of our leaders. Mr Koirala can do anything to become PM - this has been proved several times. Everyons of us have been following him blindly despite the fact that his own elder brother, the most influential Nepali leader Late BP Koirala himself in his diary Sundarijal, had mentioned not to ever trust GP Koirala. If we gotta follow BP's path, why follow GP. Since, he has been the leader for most of the democratic Nepal, I would definitely point him for the mess we have in Nepal. Lastly, the third power in Nepal is King G. It has been very unclear what his motives are and what his next step is. I beleive his October 4 move was a very good move. Else, why would so many people all over the country would come on streets celebrating the royal takeover. Everyone has been tired of the political parties. After the royal takeover, I had a chance to visit Nepal - I would say that was the best time after Democracy in terms of Government Service. Atleast there is some power that everyone is scared of. Despite all this, leaders have not realized what they did in the past 10 years. Therefore, I do not think Democracy is possible in Nepal unless a well visioned leader comes to Nepal. jaya_nepal..!!! |
| kalabati | Posted
on 11-Apr-04 09:21 PM
Some thing is missing, Democracy for all and Dictetarship for one . In struggle you can see such type of things every where . people are protesting for good reason. They are fighting for people soverenty. So we wish for better |
| kalekrishna | Posted
on 12-Apr-04 08:34 AM
Whose loss, whose money, whose development??? 
|
| yOuNgBlOoDz | Posted
on 12-Apr-04 08:49 AM
lemme come up with a scenario King - mera pyara janta haru ho! ma ra mero raj pariwar le yo nirnaya gareko chau ki, since, yo desh nepal lai, raja ra raj pariwar chahhiyeko na rahecha, hami desh nai chadera bahira jadai chau! yedi yesmai desh ra janta ko bhalo huncha bhane, hami jadai chau!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! whats next!!!!!!!!!!!! whose gonna take over....... will the law and order be stable, These politicians are out there united, n are protesting against monarchy.. why coz, they know the king is whuppin there arse.. if i hadn't heard it wrong.. when the king sacked deuba.. he clearly said.. bring new people to the house... done with old one.. for the prosperity of the country we need young people.... YO where them young people at.........oh ya there r sum.. YUBA NETA - GIRIJA>.... MAHA YUBA - MAKUNE>.. BS.......say even if they are successfull throwing the king, Will they still be united eventually! will all they agree on who the PM or president be.. If they choose one, after next week, other corrupted neta will start pulling his leg, saying he could make it better, n then again he will push for another election.. n if he wins.. the other corrupted neta will come up with same reason,,, and it goes on n on.. and then we have this another PRACHANDA.. who says.. well nothing is working out.. gathers couples of young people.. calls themselve... revolutionary, n start takin innocent lives.. n the country will be back in the same crisis that we r going thru today... Thats how i see it!!!!!!!!!!!! i see no way out.. w/o king yb |
| yOuNgBlOoDz | Posted
on 12-Apr-04 08:50 AM
add to that.. WTF has political parties has done in last 15 yrs.. they had full authority.. |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 12-Apr-04 09:01 AM
oi youngbloodz!! gyane ko chamchha............... some info for you: it isn't deuba who is will bring new faces in house......and it isn't even that gyane who has got power to do that.....it is people.........so this is very nice excuse ......................hahahahahahaah....and this people think this brother killler as their liberator...............what a pity??? and very imp thing....netas can be corrupted but we need democracy.not the autocracy of tha F@@kin gyane & parase who are the blood suckers( and i dont' know what more......... |
| mildseven | Posted
on 12-Apr-04 10:08 AM
and please look up to see what niksnpl 's "people " are doing. idiot. I dont know what Gyanendra has done or not done. I dont know what Girija has done or not done. Only stories. i have however seen what these netas (girija et al) did in the years of democracy. I want to see democracy in Nepal as well, but if democracy means bringing these netas back to power, HELL NO. I REFUSE TO BE RULED BY GP KOIRALA, I refuse to be ruled by these corrupt rapists of the motherland. people w/o morals. niksnpl and his people in the picture are the type who can be kept busy by giving them a piece of paper which says "please turn over" on both sides. They dont learn. they just wanna be screwed over by the netas and break fences, street lamps and burn cars and motorcycles to bring the netas back to be screwed by them again. and again. When democracy is not a choice, better monarchy than anarchy. |
| Biswo | Posted
on 12-Apr-04 10:28 AM
>if democracy means bringing these > netas back to power, HELL NO. I >REFUSE TO BE RULED BY GP KOIRALA, No, democracy doesn't mean bringing any neta back to power. If you, since you are not using your real name so I don't know you, are an honest and intelligent person who can persuade people to vote for you, if you are honest than those so called netas that you don't name the names but berate in pronouns, you can contest election and be a powerful person yourself. And just for your info, under king that is not possible, so is under the Maoists. Peaceful transition of power is possible only under the democracy. Note that Bharatiya Janata Party had two seats in late 80s, now they are almost firmly in power. It all depends on whether you can woo someone or not. If you think Gyanendra or Paras are so good, they are also going to be free to contest election and you will also be free to vote for them, and make their vote count reach somewhere near 20:-) The fact is these royals and royalists are the worst scum Nepal ever knew. The more we scrutinize them, the more we know they were far worse than even the likes of Govinda Raj Joshi, Khum Bahadur Khadka and Chiranjivi Wagle. Do you know why Surya Bahadur Thapa was impeached by king's own panche in 2040s? Just for your information, those who heavily involved themselves in horse trading and Bangkok junket during hung parliament were also from these same people who are in power rightnow, starting from Kamal Thapa. A teacher at my department, Rice, had just last month returned to South Korea to contest for election after staying here in USA for more than ten years. (He ,I've heard , is very much tipped to win ). See, if you are fed up with Nepal's netas, why don't you go back and try to convince people that you are a better choice? If I get tired of my MP, I surely plan to challenge him in future, provided there is election. Let's be rational,courageous and more rigorous in analyzing Nepal's extremely fluid political situation. I am glad that the people from all aspects of poilitics have finally understood how bad the monarch of modern day Nepal is and are joining the protests. |
| el diablo | Posted
on 12-Apr-04 11:09 AM
Biswo likes to flat out dismiss any role for monarchy in Nepal's future. At the same time, he thinks the likes of Govinda Raj Joshi and Khum Bdr. Khadka and all he plunderers of the last 12 years of so called "democracy" are honorable men. He makes these broad sweeping statements without providing much evidence to substantiate his outlandish claims. This guy is a prime example of partisan, Congressi("democratic") "intellectual" here on Sajha. |
| r_o_h_i_t | Posted
on 12-Apr-04 12:45 PM
I find it quite disturbing to see that we are putting all the blames of our misery to the politicians. Whenever we talk about political practice in Nepal, we put under microscope, the 15 years of democracy. I can't understand how anyone can support autocracy over democracy just because he is tired of some corrupt politicians. I totally agree that our politicians have failed us. But I cannot think of a reason that justifies the handover of peoples power to the king and Paras. I want to throw a question to all the pro-king sajhaites. What good has the king done to the country after taking over the power over couple of years back. I don't see him introducing a very progressive agenda for the country. Neither did he introduce a new face, an intellectual leader to the country. He kept his faith on the same old guys, Lokendra and Surya Bahadur, who make shameless claim as to conduct an election within an year. And I am still wondering what kind of election it will be for most of the rural and suburban area of the country is not in the control of the government. Oh yes, I have an election model in mind, may I suggest it right here. One form of election can be, randomly picking up about 100 people from each district, bring 'em to Tudikhel and ask them to vote. Do you guys have any other model in mind. Rohit |
| pucoug | Posted
on 12-Apr-04 12:52 PM
Well, here is the funny thing. We can bad mouth the leaders and the politicians and what not... but when it comes to us, we are no good than any of those people. If you are in the US or UK, how did you come here? Your (average Nepali) mommy or daddy couldnt have saved up enough money from working at a government organization and making Rs. 5000/month to send you here. They must have (in most cases... if its not the case for you, please dont get offended) taken bribe of some sort. Its considered normal in Nepal. If you think they didnt, well... think again. No body is perfect. We all should stop whining about who did what, and do something about it. (Again, sorry if I offended anyone... I know for sure that there are still a few honest ppl left in Nepal) |
| Garibjanata | Posted
on 12-Apr-04 05:29 PM
Dear friends, All your ramblings here in sajha.com is not going to make any difference to the poor nepali people. Instead of venting your frustrations here, why don't you all do something for the poor, like if you earn 3000$ a month, why not open a piggy bank and start dropping 20$ into it? In one year time it will add up to 240$ which will be equivalent to ~20,000 NR. With that amount you can spend 1000 Rs. per month and educate a poor man's child back home. Won't that be a far more greater contribution to your motherland than just cursing everyone here. Sorry to tell you all, but the truth is the only person who has a keen perception, grasp of Nepal and her ills is Biswo. He is the only one here who understands the value of democracy and that there is no other alternative to it. |
| Biswo | Posted
on 12-Apr-04 08:38 PM
I agree with Rohit very much. And Garibjanata,I thank you for your appreciation of my ability to understand Nepal. But let's acknowledge that there are others too who know as much. As for el diablo, you are free to believe what you want. If you read my postings again, you know that you are not even worthy of replies. |
| jay_sambho | Posted
on 12-Apr-04 08:52 PM
WHY CANT DEMOCRACY WORK IN Nepal? All we need is patience and to get rid of King's power. Pashupatinath le tapai sabai ko rakshya garun ra democracy ko pani jay Sambho |
| Jay | Posted
on 12-Apr-04 08:52 PM
Don't equate democracy with rule of Makune or Girija or Gyane. Democracy as you know means power to people. Lincoln lae vane jastai by the people, of the people and for the people is democracy. Those who barks against democracy, what is the alternative system you offer??? |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 13-Apr-04 02:32 AM
DEMOCRACY HAS NO ALTERNATIVE...............MA YO KURA THOKERA BHANNA SAKCHHU........ ABOUT THIS ROYAL FAMILY....WHAT DID THEY GIVE NEPAL??? Let us go back to the history of Nepal. During 16th, 17th century the prosperity of Nepal was in equal standard with those in Europe......competing with Milan, Venice,Paris etc.Where are we now?? What did we gain in Last 200 years of this rule......... Do you KNOW what did they do?? They kept the majority of people in the darkness of ignorance.....NO EDUCATION for them.......Coz it will bring big problems for them. When the people are educated, they will start struggling for their rights, Freedom and such things.. Aka, then these bunch of opportunist people will have no where to go....So, they are supporting this rule for their own benefits, but not for the benefit of people..... and one more thing.....NEVER DARE TO COMPARE THESE CORRUPT POLITICIANS WITH DEMOCRACY.........It is the people whos chose these corrupt politicians, so they are also to be blamed in some aspect.......And, don't think that Changes will happen in days, weeks, or years....It will take a long time in country like Nepal, where the people are used to live under exploitation, in the darkness for very very long time...... NOw i see some people who compare hardly 15 years old Democracy,which has proved to be best system in the world, and start telling that Autocracy is far better than Democracy in Nepal..What a pity????....But, What did this autocracy gave us in past 200 years.....HUNGER, ILLITERACY,AND A LONG LIST .....now we are in transition period. And never compare nepal's democracy with US, or UK......then, you will have high expectations and low resources...how can we imageine to match them in 15 years...OH OH!!!! one more thing, democracy isn't a person like girija, or makune....it is a sytem where people are all in all..... I hope these people will understand something............ AND SORRY FOR BEING AGGRESIVE........ |
| jivman | Posted
on 13-Apr-04 08:55 AM
Nikspl: In fact, your email lacks aggreesiveness. it does not sounds going far enough. You blame the people who chose stupid netas. If people are not ready, then we got a big issue here. By the way I wanna enjoy my life and 15 yrs a lot of time to waste. I cant afford to waste another 15 yrs hoping things will be better. |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 13-Apr-04 11:55 AM
A fine discussion going on here with some of the best Sajha minds involved. The central question for the debate is: Will democracy work in Nepal? If I were to tacke this question, I would start out by saying that what is Democracy? How do we define democracy? Is democracy an ideal, rhetoric, pretext to rule, system of governance or expression of freedom? Without arriving at some basic operational definition of the term, we can not say if it will or will not work in Nepal. Because it is in itself not transparent, universal, and something concrete and tangible in itself. In other words, it is not an objective reality out there like a rock or ice. It is instead a product of social construct which differes from people to people, place to place and time to time. So it is not very useful when zealots speak of DEMOCRACY in the singular as if there was an universal consensus on what it is or so transparent in its meaning that it requires further qualifications. It is for this reason that what George Bush, Laloo Bihari, the US Marine in Fallujah, and Lee Kuan Yu (Sp.?, the Singaporean) SAY and DO about democracy are so differnt. That is why it is so important to make the distinction between the rhetoric and practice of democracy. Having made this caveat, I would say the following on whether democracy will or will not work in Nepal: 1. If we are talking about Indian/Bihari form of democracy; I think we are doing very well already. By this standard, our democracy is going to flourish very well, so have no fears. 2. If we are talking about the Singaporean or East Asian (I mean Taiwan, Malaysian, South Korea, Japan) standard of democracy, I think it is not possible at the moment. This kind of democracy presupposes a strong state and a large degree of national consenus engendered either by the state or the culture, or both. Nepal does not at present have a strong enough state to lead a guided democracy of the East Asian variety. 3. If we are talking about the US and British standard of democracy, it is even more impossible at the moment. This kind of democracy, termed bourgeois democracy by Marx, requires the presence of a large and dominant capitalist class (GM, Ford, Boeing, IBM, Coca Cola barons) to control and give stability to the whole edifice including the state. Only a strong state controlled by the capitalist class can ensure the functioning of this kind of democracy. Furthermore, this democracy also exists on its ability to extract the surplus from other regions of the world to keep it afloat. As we can all imagine, this role is not possible for the Nepali capitalists/merchants/sahujis for a long time. So before we blindly chant the prajatantra ko mantra next time (frankly, this particular mantra has replaced our Gyatri Mantra of yore among certain sections the Nepali intelligentsia), it would be fruitful and pragmatic to consider some of the presuppositions and preconditions that go into making the varieties of democracies (hell, even DPRK and Congo, and Saudi Arabia, and Cuba, and China ,and our very own Maoists claim the fair name of democracy, and why not?). So if we are talking of Desi marka democracy, we are doing very well: looto khao, aur Desh bachao is the main mission of the Bihari democracy and we have adopted to this very well. So people should not despair of democracy not working in Nepal. But if we are talking about the East Asian or the Ango-American version of democracy, it is not likely anytime soon because the economic, cultural, and political preconditions are not there. Otherwise, if democracy was like an Apple computer (and God bless Apple Inc.) ready to plug and play anywhere in the world, they would already have installed it in Afghanistan and Iraq. This is the view of democracy I get from the Punjabi Tandoor pit, so take it with a pinch of salt, or a morsel of sarsonka saag! SC |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 13-Apr-04 07:48 PM
An apt example of how Indian elections and democracy work, often with serious consequences for the "People": TUESDAY, APRIL 13, 2004 THE TIMES OF INDIA INDIA POWERED BY INDIATIMES PTI[ TUESDAY, APRIL 13, 2004 11:41:20 PM ] NEW DELHI: Is it more profitable to ‘‘manage’’ the voter with polltime giveaways or is it better to simply outsource management of votes to ‘‘specialists’’? Bihar, often the trendsetter in vote management, is again scripting a new story. Here the poll candies are not only watches, caps, cricket kits, badges, stickers and safas. It is often guns, pistols, bombs and other illegal arms. It’s not as if voters themselves want these killer devices. Arms, ranging from AK-47s to pistols are distributed among trusted gang members and they are asked to ensure the delivery of voters at the right time, at the right booth and pressing the right button. As a result, if the state has an employment problem, it doesn’t seem to be the case in these areas where some 200 illegal arms factories are churning out hardware for the polls. The more with-it candidates might be placing orders for CDs and even handing out mobile phones, but for those who want to ‘outsource’ the job of vote garnering, the AK-47 production units in Bhagalpur and Munger are the right destinations. For the quality conscious, the pistols available at Tishkohara are the preferred purchases. Usually sold for Rs 1,200, the going rate is Rs 2,500. The business of hiring gangs or distributing arms to supporters is not the prerogative of Bihar politicos alone. In the Andhra Pradesh’s Rayalaseema, bombs are a common feature, with explosives going at times going off somewhat earlier than intended. In areas of Bastar and Telangana, where the Naxal menace is quite evident, candidates find it prudent to invest in weaponary for personal protection. In parts of the country where the poll atmosphere is less clouded with gunpowder, the range of goodies that candidates offer is only increasing. Umbrellas, hairpins, bindis and headbands are being handed out in Orissa. Influential vote managers recieve mobile phones, key campaign aides move around in new cars and open kitchens that run through the day. SEND GIFTS TO INDIA Flowers & Gifts Delivered the same day Jewellery in Gold, Diamond, Pearl & more more>> BUY Sensational Sachin at World Cup 2003 VCD @ Rs. 145, DVD @ Rs. 499 SPOTLIGHT Film Reviews TOONSCAPE By Ajit Ninan TOP About the Publisher | For reprint rights:Times Syndication Service Copyright © 2004 Times Internet Limited. All rights reserved. | Advertise with Us | Careers @ TIL | Terms of Use | Feedback | Sitemap |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 13-Apr-04 07:54 PM
Another stellar democracy, desi style: TUESDAY, APRIL 13, 2004 THE TIMES OF INDIA CITIES: LUCKNOW POWERED BY INDIATIMES Search The Times of India Indiatimes Web Indiatimes > The Times of India > Cities > Lucknow > Article Home CLASSIFIEDS Matrimonial | Jobs Real Estate | Auto Post Print Ads All Classifieds HOT LINKS Pak Tour ePaper Bollywood NRI News Indo-Pak Ties The BPO Wave Elections 2004 US presidency NEWS Cities Ahmedabad Bangalore Chandigarh Chennai Delhi Hyderabad Kolkata Lucknow Mumbai Panaji Patna Pune Thiru'puram City Supplements India Sports World Entertainment India Business Intl Business Obituary Infotech Health/Science Weather Photo Gallery TOI Headlines Top Media Headlines Most Read Articles Best of the Week Archives OPINION Columnists Editorial Interview Letters to Editor SUNDAY SPECIALS All That Matters Men & Women Mind Over Matter Open Space Special Report NRI SERVICES India on Mobile Remit2India SUPPLEMENTS Education Times PRINT EDITION Delhi Edition DAILY DOSE News Puzzle Crosswords Horoscope Jokes Newsletters Send to friend Tandon's B'day: Saris as shrouds for 21 SATYAM KOHLI TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ TUESDAY, APRIL 13, 2004 04:22:07 AM ] LUCKNOW : An event aimed at garnering votes from the poor turned into a disaster on Monday, when 21 women and a three-year-old boy were killed in a stampede to collect free saris being given away at a gathering to celebrate BJP leader Lalji Tandon's birthday. Doctors said six of the women were brought dead at Balrampur Hospital , 10 at the trauma centre of the King Georges Medical University and another five at Bhaurao Deoras Hospital . The state unit of BJP announced an ex-gratia of Rs 1 lakh to the next of kin of the deceased as part of damage control exercise. Vajpayee is to file his nomination from Lucknow on April 15. The saris were being distributed to mark Tandon's 70th birthday. The event, at the city's Chandrashekhar Azad Park , was organised by a local group called the Nagrik Sewa Samiti. The samiti is headed by Brajendra Murari Yadav, a listed gangster and a former BJP corporator, who has Tandon's blessings. Yadav had organised a similar function last year. Because of Yadav's political links, no FIR had been lodged against him so far. Tandon tried to distance himself from the tragedy that was sure to cost him ahead of the election in UP. He blamed it on the organisers, saying he had left the venue after giving away saris to four or five women. Though Tandon tried to wash his hands off the ugly incident, he had attended a similar function last year also. Some of the organisers asked reporters not to write about the incident as such things do happen during a big gathering. They claimed that women had died due to heat stroke, although initial hospital reports suggested deaths due to asphyxia. Some of the women had their ribs broken. Things took an ugly turn when the crowd of about 15,000 broke ranks and charged towards the volunteers giving away the sarees. Obviously overwhelmed by the crowd and the absence of any police arrangement, the volunteers panicked. Most senior police officials and district administrators were busy making arrangements for a visit by Chief Election Commissioner T S Krishnamurthy and did not reach the scene for an hour. Later Inspector RN Singh of the Mahanagar police station was suspended. The district magistrate Aradhna Shukla said that permission had not been taken for organising the function, which began with Lalji Tandon zindabad, Atal Bihari zindabad and ended with people bad mouthing the BJP. Chief minister Mulayam Singh Yadav met Lalji Tandon at the latter's Mall Avenue residence and later also visited the KGMU morgue. There Mulayam refused to make a political issue out of the tragic incident. "There is nothing wrong if someone distributes foodgrains or clothes on birthdays. I am against politicising the issue." He also announced ex-gratia of Rs 1 lakh to the kin of the deceased, Rs 50,000 for seriously injured and Rs 25,000 for those with minor injuries. He, however, added that the ex-gratia would be released subject to clearance from the Election Commission. Meanwhile, former CM Kalyan Singh, Union agriculture minister Rajnath Singh, BJP state affairs incharge Kalraj Mishra mourned the deaths. The state government has ordered a probe into the incident to be conducted by Lucknow divisional commissioner DC Lakha. He would file his report within a week. At the district level, the DM has instituted an inquiry to be conducted by ADM City (Trans-Gomti) VK Rai. |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 13-Apr-04 07:59 PM
Now, an example of how the bourgeois democracy works from the US. By the way, I am sorry for not deleting the junk stuff on the news from Indian election in the above posting. (from the CNN) Cheney under fire for deferred pay Vice President's 2003 tax returns show he received $178,437 in deferred pay from Halliburton. April 13, 2004: 5:36 PM EDT WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Vice President Dick Cheney received $178,437 in deferred pay last year from Halliburton Co., the Texas oil-field services company he once headed that has since received billion-dollar government contracts in Iraq. The White House on Tuesday released the 2003 income tax returns for both Cheney and his wife, Lynne, and President Bush and his wife, Laura. Cheney's office said the income from Halliburton -- which was close to his salary as vice president -- was in no way linked to the financial health of the company. A Halliburton subsidiary is under investigation for possibly overcharging the U.S military for fuel supplies in Iraq. The Bushes' taxable income was virtually unchanged from 2002. It was reported at $727,083, after deductions of $95,043. Their income included his salary earned as president -- $397,264 -- and investment income from the trusts in which their assets are held. The Bushes reported paying a total of $227,490 in federal income taxes. They contributed $68,360 to churches and charitable organizations. The Cheneys reported taxable income of $813,226 in 2003. They paid $258,779 in taxes in withholding and estimated tax payments, but only owed $253,067 and thus were eligible for a $5,712 refund but decided to apply that to their 2004 taxes. Cheney reported $198,600 in vice-presidential salary for the year. In addition, his tax return reported the payment of $178,437 in deferred compensation from Halliburton (HAL: Research, Estimates). The deferred pay is based on a 1998 agreement in which Cheney elected to defer compensation earned in 1999 for his services as chief executive officer of Halliburton. This amount is to be paid in annual installments, with interest, over the five years following Cheney's retirement from Halliburton. Cheney has taken some criticism from Democrats for his connection to Halliburton, which is the military's biggest contractor in Iraq and is responsible for everything from preparing meals for troops to repairing Iraq's oil infrastructure. The company has been a lightning rod for criticism during this presidential election year due to allegations it received lucrative contracts because of its ties to the White House. Both Halliburton and the White House have strongly denied the charges, and Halliburton has said it had operated legally under its Iraq contracts. New Jersey Democratic Sen. Frank Lautenberg complained that Cheney is "still getting paychecks from Halliburton." "That's wrong," he said. "Dick Cheney is being paid almost the same amount by Halliburton as he is making as vice president of the United States." He said other top officials, such as Treasury Secretary John Snow, ended their deferred compensation plans upon taking office. "Vice President Cheney should have done the same," he said. A statement from the vice president's office said Cheney's decision to defer income from Halliburton became "final and unalterable before Mr. Cheney left Halliburton." "The amount of deferred compensation received by the vice president is fixed and is not affected by Halliburton's economic performance or earnings in any way," the statement said. The Cheneys donated $321,141 to charity in 2003, primarily from donations of Mrs. Cheney's royalties from the publisher Simon & Schuster on her books, "America: A Patriotic Primer," and "A is for Abigail," and her forthcoming book "Fifty States." |
| darshankaka | Posted
on 13-Apr-04 08:08 PM
It's time for those doctors to serve Nepali Congress and Communist parties who earned scholarships to do MBBS abroad with the recommendations of those parties: If doctors are on street, who will treat those who get injured in the protests... Stupid doctors. DOCTORS ON THE STREETS: Members of Nepal Medical Practitioners' Union taking part in a protest rally defying the government prohibition orders at Bagbazaar in Kathmandu Tuesday. 
|
| jaya_nepal | Posted
on 13-Apr-04 08:19 PM
Suva Chintak ji, It was nice reading your views after a very long time. Well, defnitely it is important to figure out the type of democracy we want in Nepal - Indian style, Bihari style, US style, Britisn style, or south asia style. And as Lincoln described it as a form of government of the people by the people and by the people. I guess that is all what we want in Nepal. A democratic form of governemnt where everything is just fair and transparent. As you say we defnitely need some big corporate world to secure, but again, we need to be loyal to ourselves and to the mother nation. Take an example of Andhra Pradesh CM, Mr Chandra Babu Naidu. What has he done to Hyderabad. A city popular for its Charminar is now referred as Cyberabad. Well, what democracy needs is a leader with clear vision and thoughts. The people support him, coz whatever he is doing, is for the welfare of the people. It is not that he is not curropt or anything - he may be - but his good qualities cover everything. That is what we want in Nepal. A GOOD LEADER. jaya_nepal..!!! |
| Biswo | Posted
on 13-Apr-04 08:58 PM
I have observed that it is interesting that in democracy, you have to find some flaws to point out that it has some demerits. In autocracy (eg. Gyanendracracy), you need to have a very powerful lens in your glasses to find something good to show that it has some merit. As for four kinds of or five kinds of democracy, it is ludicrous. If someone tells me that a dog is a man, I won't go on writing there are two types of men: the one who looks like homo sapiens, and another who looks like dog. Classification is not a trivial job, and it is ludicrous to see people taking such job so lightly. Yea, when someone tries to write there are different democracies, saddam type democracy, Kim Il Jung type democracy : then my answer is , ok fella, you got to start reading and thinking again about this issue from abc. As long as popular decisions are not taken by eliciting social summary of citizens'opinion via transparent processes (like election with universal suffrage), you don't have democracy. |
| Biswo | Posted
on 13-Apr-04 09:03 PM
>... Stupid doctors. Wow. Darshankaka. I guess now doctors are stupid. Btw, may I know how smart are you? They are practicing their right to protest against the regime they don't like. If the govt finds they are violating the job related rule, it is free to fire them. |
| learner_1 | Posted
on 13-Apr-04 10:06 PM
Hope you don't have Dr. in front of your name!!!! |
| darshankaka | Posted
on 14-Apr-04 07:45 AM
Biswo jee: Why you got intimidated? All I am saying is they are not raising the voice against the regime they don't like. They are compelled to do so. Noon (salt) ko sojho gareko ni. They went to study abroad witht he ashirbad of those protesting parties. So it's their duty to help the parties back. You ask if I am smart? My action will tell if I am or not. But those doctors actions clearly revealed that at least they are not smart. And you know that "not smart" = Stupid. Doctors strike is always unacceptable. They forgot thier oath of ethics. I know I should not be giving advice to these funny and phony doctors. But if they really have to voice their rights... you do not have to produce 100dBA noise!!!!!! What they should be really doing is, stand at the roadsides, curbs when the clashes burst betweeen protestors and police, and be ready to treat the injured people (both police and protesters)!!!! Buddhi kahily Aune bhayo po. Free seat ma doctory padna pako manchhe haro lai!! |
| MillionDollars | Posted
on 14-Apr-04 07:55 AM
Not in at least million years. |
| jaya_nepal | Posted
on 14-Apr-04 08:07 AM
Biswoji and others: Protests and demonstrations are always welcomed in a Democratic society. It is a way to show ur dissatisfaction with the government. But there is a certain way for everything. There is no need to disrupt the everyday life of society. They can stand on the sidewalks with banners reading their dissatisfactions or around government offices. Why disrupt the daily life and destroy the few things we have in our nation. You must seen the pic where a student kicking a sidewalk realing. That is not protests, that is termed as TERRORISM. You dont destroy your national property and disrupt the daily life. All political parties should be compensated for the national property damage. jaya_nepal..!!! |
| Dr. Strangelove | Posted
on 14-Apr-04 08:17 AM
Trying to equate the distinctive variations of abstract principles of social equality ala democracy seen across the globe that was aptly highlighted by Suva Chintak with banal difference between a dog and a man is what is LUDICROUS. Our Biswo seems to be omniscient and I guess he is the ultimate authority on what's good for Nepal. It's not always.."my way or the highway". Hubris, my friend can be fatal. |
| Rosie | Posted
on 14-Apr-04 09:00 AM
Democracy??? Are you kidding me? Democracy, freedom of speech, free market, competition, developemnt, yada...yada...yada These are things that our generation has no hope or expectation of. Being able to get from one place to another safely is all that we hope to achieve (at least for now). |
| jivman | Posted
on 14-Apr-04 09:40 AM
Rosie: I agree with you. Lets not chase big dream. Lets just hope for peace and stability. |
| nsshrestha | Posted
on 14-Apr-04 09:41 AM
Suva Chintak, 1. I admire your courage to stand alone in Sajha and inculcate your voice though no one is paying much attention, this and more is what democracy is. You do not need to redefine the yardstick to measure the democracy. Stop singing the ballad “GYANU - KOMALIKA”. Who ever stands with people never lose – chetana bhaya. 2. Any regime that undermines the rights of its citizens is not a democracy of its type but it is not democracy. I see you coming with “Hawapani suhaudo prajatantra ” next. 3. Even the flees leave dead corpses. I think we have heard Khem Raj Pandit saying – we can not participate in the movement but we have our moral support. You are a wise man, and hope you understanh what I meant to say. 4. Democracy is certainly not the best of all, but least evil of all. You are coming up with some petty incidents to stand against it, undermining the greater good it has done. 5. What is wrong with Indian democracy? In the lybrinth of history, finally it is finding a way out. India is Shining more than beofre even in Bihari democracy, at leasst more than us under the guided democracy(that’s what you would like to call) imposed upon us. 6. Most of the buffons here rallying with regression, I understand their ignorance, but yours – it is called “BOUDHHIK BHATGIRI” |
| nsshrestha | Posted
on 14-Apr-04 09:44 AM
Chraibeti Chraibeti |
| rbaral | Posted
on 14-Apr-04 12:43 PM
Some isolated incident won't prove otherwise. A tyrant is a tyrant. No matter how corrupt the democratic leaders could get, a dictatorship doesn't come close. If leaders are corrupt, voice against them, not against the system. Oh yes, all tyrants of the worlds, as we have learned from history, have done their best when it comes to enslaving so-called intellectuals. By doing so, tyrants hope to extend their tenure, and BAUDHIK BHATS (to borrow nsshrestha's idiom) to get a pay raise. Astu. |
| Nepali_Viking | Posted
on 14-Apr-04 08:47 PM
A good discussion brewing up here. Someone please explain me the psychology of supporters of autocracy. It is understandable why someone will support the democracy. Well the reasons are just too many to be listed. But supporting autocracy........man....are you nuts. OK, enough of that, now lets talk something constructive. I feel it's the time when the politicians should made to answer some hard questions. Tens of thousands of people are participating in the agitation but strangely, the ring masters are still the same. So, does this mean that all these people with blood all over their face, broken limbs are contributing to bring back people like girija and madhav nepal. Looks silly, but that's what is being done. Unless someone stands up and asks hard questions to these politicians, its a hopeless situation. Jai Nepal NV |
| Prem Charo | Posted
on 14-Apr-04 09:24 PM
Nepal maa democracy vaneko ta vikh manga lai paisa kamaaune bato matra ho. Ramro leader vaye po democracy le kaam garcha.Amrika maa basera jati kura garepani desh ko samasya suljhane hoina. PC :) |
| M.P. | Posted
on 14-Apr-04 10:16 PM
>>Ramro leader vaye po democracy le kaam garcha. Democracy le raamro leader janmaauchha! Semi-democracy le maila dai jasto "buddiman", sabaiko kuraa sunne "mahaan" netaa janmaauchha, ani sansaar dubchha. We never had complete democracy* in Nepal, it is time to give it a chance! ------- * By democracy here, I do not mean Saddam's or Fidel's democracy. Just wanted to make sure before somebody comes here and twists everything to suit his purpose! |
| Poonte | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 02:08 AM
First of all, I agree that "democracy," as it is understood in the Western world, may not necessarily work well in other parts of the world. However, the basic tenets of democracy, i.e, freedom of speech (freedom to oppose), freedom of expression (freedom of the press), etc. are UNIVERSAL; and, if such freedoms are granted without any grudges, which would establish the foundation of democracy, the entire process of democracy would surely flourish well, no matter where it may be. Secondly, "democracy" is not a package that can be gifted to a society and, as SC has put, be plugged in and everything will be alright. Neither does "democracy" has an end. This never-ending, tedious, and, at times, very difficult, process can only build upon itself and prosper IF the people are set free. Afterall, we all humans seek to be free -- any form of suppression, though may be tolerated for one reason or the other, is naturally detested by EVERY human. If, under the pretext that the people are not ready, one doesn't grant the basic tenets of democracy to the people, the process would never have started, hence the people will be ever more NOT ready for it. The only way to prepare the people for democracy is by letting them play with it, make mistakes (and learn from them), and the natural process of proper democratization would evolve by itself. I think the excuse that the people are not ready for democracy is only a pretext to safeguard a dictatorship. Have faith in the Nepali people -- although vast majority of them are illiterate, by the mere fact that they have lived their lives makes them no less competent in democracy than someone who may have a PhD degree. As a matter of fact, life teachs much more (and better) than what books can teach a person. Finally, MP has raised a valid point: We never had democracy in Nepal. What the year 1989 heralded in Nepal was just a little taste of democracy. By the mere fact that 1990's Nepali Constitution put ONE man and his family above the law, and put that very man, who is unelected, incharge of the military [and there are few more fundamental flaws in that constitution], the state of Nepal was far from being democratic. Furthermore, one also needs to understand that democracy is not only about "free this" or "free that" -- the process should also ensure that every citizen of that country is treated EQUALLY, both in terms of opportunity and respect. The sheer neglect of the rural people in terms of offering them equal rights vis-a-vis the urbanites was in itself a major flaw in the so-called democracy in Nepal. Therefore, I find it rather amusing to hear when some people claim that democracy failed in Nepal and that it won't work there. Well, we never had democracy, so how could it have failed? Have faith in the people and give them the real deal, which would entail freedoms of various kinds AND equality, democracy will never fail Nepal, or, for that matter, anyone/anywhere. On the other hand, what has failed Nepal is it's almost entire history of dictatorships, which, in the name of "national unity," promoted castism, suppression, and classification of its citizens. |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 10:34 AM
Well, well, ahem!! For the most part, this is a great discussion on such a vital issue as democracy. Except for a small band of bigots, the exchanges have been very insightful, educational and civic! Why does it suddenly feel like I am being thrown into a shouting match with some Taliban mullas, not of the Islamic variety but of the prajatantrik type? When Salman Rushdie wrote the book Satanic Verses, these Talibanic mullas were up in arms. Their righteous ire of these self-appointed guardians of God was: how dare someone else imagine, define, and question God? The mullas claimed that they alone had the copyright on God and all things divine, so off with Rushdie's head, they issued an fatwa on the Kafir. I see the same kind of intolerant streak among a few of our self-righteous prajatantrik karmakandi purets. They want to stampout anyone who dares to ask rational queries regarding the varieties of forms, functions, and historical trajectories taken by the democratic ideal around the world. It is just like the way the village baje would thrash a low caste person for trying to read Gita or chant the Veda with these stern and censurious words: "you are so low that you will pollute the holy books, I alone, with my high caste, have been appointed by God to read and interpret God's word." Now it is as if the descendents of the holy purets are trying to act as if their forefathershas acquired the monopoly rights over prajatantra for all eternity. According to their logic, nobody else can talk, discuss, question, analyze democracy without their express approval. If other people speak and try to figure out what this is all about, the caste purity of prajatantra will be defiled. My question to these pandas on high horses is: is democracy is so fragile, so weak, so unnatural that you fear it will be exposed and fall apart just because people are asking questions about its forms and functions? My own belief is that democracy is an strong enough ideal that can withstand and actually become stronger and more meaningful when people actually discuss and practice this rather than accepting it like an unquestionable dogma that our ghate purets want us to do. Allow me to recall an incident several years ago near New Road during UML's rule. The government had formed a commission to look into the Dhamija scandal involving the huge ($22 million) corruption in RNAC. Girija had been summoned by the Commission to pgive his testimony on the case. The Commission was sitting in the RNAC building. Rather than giving his testimony, Girija decided to send about 500 goons to surround the building and chant slongs such as "To prosecute honorable Girija Babu is to imprison democracy." They were were sending bricks through office windows and cars parked on the lot. The thugs, reportedly paid Rs. 250 each for the tamasha, had also stopped the traffic on the New Road gate. A fellow on a motor cycle trying to get to a office in New Road was stopped by these goons and told to go back. He tried to reason with them to let him get on with his journey. "I am late for my appointment, I have less than a minute to get to my work", he told them. The youths on the other end were not impressed. "Here we are trying to save democracy itself. Democracy is at risk, and you are just concerned for your work!", they laughed at him. Having been jailed for five months during Rana time and four years during Panchayat time for 'subversive' activities, the guy was also not to be so easily intimidated. "How does my not going to work today reduce the risk to democracy? And besides, in democracy, shouldn't Girija Babu agree to speak before a legally constituted commission? After all, democracy is all about the rule of law." The thugs had no moral, philosophical, or rational answer to this simple questioning. So they resort to naked power, goon power of assault and abuse. The scene took an ugly turn, the youths shouted at him "So you think you more about democracy than us? Saale communist chor, how dare you question our Girija Babu?" The fists, kicks and sticks came fast and furious. When the dust settled, the bike was a total wreck; the man found himself getting half dozen stitches at Bir Hospital rather than signing a business deal at his office. Such are some the Talibanic zealots of Nepali democracy. Unfortunately, some of them are ready to throw bricks even in cyber forum rather than engage in civil debate To be continued.... |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 11:32 AM
Now that some kind of a context has been set for my response, let me start with Mr. Biswo's outburst: "As for four kinds of or five kinds of democracy, it is ludicrous. If someone tells me that a dog is a man, I won't go on writing there are two types of men: the one who looks like homo sapiens, and another who looks like dog. Classification is not a trivial job, and it is ludicrous to see people taking such job so lightly." You are basically saying that it is dangerous to examine, question, and do a classification of a historical and political project like democracy. If you think I am taking this task so lightly, why don't you offer a better classification. Like you said, I am a person with low intelligence and I need to read ABC again. Since you are such a learned person, why don't you offer a "heavy" task yourself? Come on dear, this is a challenge for you. For your information, under one biological category, the dog and man fall under the same classification - mammals. So there is more to classification than you might think, Sir! I am amazed by your ability to think and act like Your Imperial Majesty Bush. A while ago, he is on record for making this redundant statement "Most of our imports come from foreign countries." I think you are following the same logic when you say: "I have observed that it is interesting that in democracy, you have to find some flaws to point out that it has some demerits. " So there are flaws so there are demerits. So you accept that there are demerits in democracy, what is the harm in pointing them out? Why do you go through the roof whenever someone points to the fact...or are you implying the principle that only holy person can make such observations. But that would defeat the democratic ideal of equality, and freedom, no? Now nsshrestha jyu, how are we doing today? Let me address some of your.... " You do not need to redefine the yardstick to measure the democracy. Stop singing the ballad “GYANU - KOMALIKA”. Who ever stands with people never lose – chetana bhaya." Pray why not? Why don't we need to examine, measure, and study democracy? Because it is somethin akin a mullah's Allah that can not be viewed in any other way except the one approced by the Taliban? Who are you to say that we can measure and what we can't? Mullah Omar ko alikati biu pare jasto cha ni? I am saying this because, like Mullah Omar, you also seem to be blind, Mr. Sherstha. Where did you see me singing Gyanu - Komalika ballad? And I don't intend to do that because I don't believe in religious faith in politics, I believe in the cold logic of scientific rational method. But you on the other hand, seem like a person who never tires of singing the "Guru Ganeshaman - Mata Mangalakali" bhajan raag. "Any regime that undermines the rights of its citizens is not a democracy of its type but it is not democracy. I see you coming with “Hawapani suhaudo prajatantra ” next." Let me show you something different. The 'democracy' practised in East Asia, Northern Europe, America, England, and your very own Bharat are different in content, focus, and emphasis. Even the Anglo-American tradition of governance in England and USA is different. So in your talibanic understanding of democracy, how do you explain for these differences without examining and measuring democracy? That is why the various local manifestations of the democratic ideal take shape accoding to the particular cultural, economic, and historical context. "Even the flees leave dead corpses. I think we have heard Khem Raj Pandit saying – we can not participate in the movement but we have our moral support. You are a wise man, and hope you understanh what I meant to say." Let me guess. You are threatening, like a true Mullah Omar biu, that the present political turmoil will oust the King and all those who have sided/supported with the King will be dealt with accroding to the Talibanic tradition. Well, good luck to you and hopefully you will get to execute plenty yourself. Will you do it individual style or "carpet bombing" entire city as one of your collegue is fond of? So, let me get this straight, in a very thinly disguised mmanner you have issued me a death threat, choo dhyo baucha? "Democracy is certainly not the best of all, but least evil of all. You are coming up with some petty incidents to stand against it, undermining the greater good it has done." So you accept that democracy has some amount of evil in it. YOU, the rightful heir apparent of Taliban, are at freedom to say that. But you won't allow me to make the same point? Come on, how democratic is that? Only people like you can make comments on democracy? Is that what you are saying? Secondly, about your "petty incidents." If they are really petty incidents as you claim to be, why are you so bothered by them to issue me a death threat? As they say, the devil is in the detail. Even if they are petty as you say, they are prevelent and systemic in the Indian body politic. Unless, again, you are blind like Mullah Omar. "What is wrong with Indian democracy? In the lybrinth of history, finally it is finding a way out. India is Shining more than beofre even in Bihari democracy, at leasst more than us under the guided democracy(that’s what you would like to call) imposed upon us." Where did you see me say that there was something wrong with Indian democracy (blind ur what?). All I said was that if we measure ourselves by the Indian standards, we are doing quite well in the democratic practice. Yes, the Bihari/Indian democracy is so shining that it burnt a whole lot of people in Gujarat just last year. Of course we can't bring the examples of the mass killings in Kashmir, Punjab, Assam, Sikkim, Mizoram, the Bofors smoke...and a whole lot of other stuff because the Omar wants us to focus on the greater good and blind ourselves to the petty incidents. "Most of the buffons here rallying with regression, I understand their ignorance, but yours – it is called “BOUDHHIK BHATGIRI” I am sure you understand ignorance, you are so full of it! Buffons? Look in the mirror, you should consider yourself lucky if the person staring at you is better than a Buffon's butt. Where did you get so much hubris and self-righteousness...Omar Mulla of course! |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 11:50 AM
nsshrestha jyu, I still have to respond to one of your grand claims of: "Who ever stands with people never lose – chetana bhaya." I know your dislike for any kind of examination and questions, but we have to come to a proper definition of "people." The King says he is speaking for the people, Girija is saying he is speaking for the people, the Maoists are saying they are speaking for the people, UML is saying it is speaking for the people, and you come along and you say you are speaking for the people. So who is making the right claim? And is "people" a monolithic entity there are various formations within it, often at odds with each other? And do the people have any say in this game of claims and counter claims? And lastly, who are there "people" .... your thagi khane bhando? |
| Biswo | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 01:13 PM
>Since you are such a learned person, >why don't you offer a "heavy" task >yourself? Come on dear, this is a >challenge for you. SC, Let me make it very straight to you: I don't care about your challenge. I will do what I want to do on my own time. So, just keep your challenges with yourself. >what is the harm in pointing them out? Why >do you go through the roof whenever > someone points to the fact No, there is no harm. I was just trying to point out to you the fact. Facts, I have always noticed, are as alien to you as are martians. As for your rantings about civil debates after labelling your critics Talibani zealots, I just want to laugh off. For the record, when I asked you once whether you went to Mongolia or not, your replied to me that you met some whores whom I supposedly taught some tricks. The posting must still be in sajha. Civility is something you gain from long practice. Pretending to be civil in a day or two won't furnish you with that gift. |
| nsshrestha | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 01:27 PM
I said all along you should have right to say. But what do you want to say? You want to scrutinize the democracy!! fine with me. But you want to beat it to death and examine weather it wakes up again. But you want to beat it to death, so it will never wake up again. Question here is about your motif. Who ever has read you postings won't need day light to see it. Have I heard yo say - You will never sing "Gyanu Komalika"? That's the way to go Comrade:) Have I heard you say - More rights to people? That's the way to go Comrade:) >>In a very thinly disguised manner, You have issued me a death threat. Such a insecure person you are! Yea, I am designing this software to kill you. if(User == "Suva Chintak") { cout<<"Dhisyaaaaaaaaaaa........." } Have you died yet? ::))))) |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 01:51 PM
Suva Chintak dai, You got to understand one thing: Its just a sheer waste of time and resouyrce to discuss with people who are not quite so familiar with the term democracy, yet try to portray themselves as the greatest democratcs here in Sajha. I agree with you: What is democracy? You know, there was a UN conference on HUman Rights and Democracy, also known as Vienna confereence or convention and China then raised a very good valid and quite a legitimate point: Do peopel reallyc are for the freedom of speech and all that when they have nothing to eat or wear or nowhere to live? Finally, the whole conference and the bills were dismissed. So, I totally agree with you: what do we call Singapore under Lee Kuan Yu and Malaysia under Dr. Mahathir? It turns out that more and more people in the world want their own development, i.e, economic betterment than democracy and all that. So, I being a student of IR and History at a small college in the middle of nowhere where some occassional visits of Harvard, Yale and Berkley Pol Science and Econ Profs. take place and the whole university takes advantage of listening to those EXPERTS, I quite share your views. So, rest assured there are many people in the world who share your views. I mean, if someone in Sajha not trained in Pol Science contradicts you, then its his or her own misunderstanding of the term democracy and I don't think there's any reason for you to clarify your position. This is this. Period. By the way, what is democracy? There's no democracy as dreamt by Julius Ceaser. Its just not possible- no matter how true of a democracy you have, there's always a group that emerges as a powerful one and that dominates the others, and in Locke's words, gives continuity to the "state of nature". This is it. Anyways dai, my advise to you [can I advise you? Since you are my da ge (big brother), I find it hard to use the word advise...]: You are discussinng with the people who know nothing about Nepal, nor have any formal training on politics to analyze this situation. I would rather stay away from these so-called democrats and let a Swarthemore Junior and a Texan PhD have their 15 minutes of fame [ you know all that...].Anwyas, dai, this is life: harping the same democracy tune and yet unwilling to accept the fact that there are many people in the world who just do not agree with their views and resorting to all sorts of name calling and labelling should be enough to tell you who are you dealing with. The best thing to do is, read their posts when you ahve nothing better to do and just laugh.... this is it. The more you respond, the nastier it gets.. and you don'yt want that.. do you? So, Suan le ba (forget it...)... |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 02:05 PM
Poonte bro, When it comes to Politics and IR, I respect your views than anybody else's in Sajha because you are trained to analyze those things and I totally respect the hardships youiw net throuygh to develop those graduate school analyzing skills. however, with due respect to your training and experience, allow me to express myself: Democracy doesn'tw ork everywhere (and you said it in your post). Since, it doesn't work everywjere, the concept of opposition and freedom of speech doesn't work everywhere either. UNles you achieve certain economic prosperity and literacy rate, its going to be "lato desh ma gando tanneri".. So, in a way, Nepal will benifit more from the Mahathir or Lee Kuan Yu model than the all out democratic Yeltsin model. |
| kreep | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 02:07 PM
exaclty Isolated Freak |
| asia | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 03:41 PM
Its very good thing that American-Nepali are thinking seriously about their mother land. As you know democracy is always good for any country, but I don't think there is democracy in Nepal. People who lives in America may be knowing much about democracy - President lai ta cartoon banai dinchha. Whenever Sher B. Deuwa says anything, I feel very bad for him. I think he almost lost his mind. Believe me he really needs doctor. He says, he can solve moist problem in six month...hehehehe...He is the one who create and pumped Maoist problem. and this current five parties problem. Ke sochera parliament disolve garyo hola. There is only one man who can solve the problem, he is King...you believe it or not, what is happening in Nepal is all drama and director is king. I don't know when Nepalese will understand that. Bishwa Hindu samrat ko desh ma yesto babaal. 2036 is very near and Surya B. Thapa will make it success again. If you are really thinking for peace in Nepal, there is other man who can save the country and handle all the problem in this situation is not other than Girija P. Koirala. You may think how that corrupt man will solve that problem, then I have answer for you, in my opinion, Girija himself is not corrupt, his four monkeys were corrupt and they gave bad name to Girija. This is true, try this. Conclusion is, Real Democracy will work in Nepal but I think there was/is no democracy and won’t be any kind of democracy in Nepali after 2062. |
| meera | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 04:09 PM
Let me flip my quarter and find out. MEERA'S QUARTER GOES SWOSSH UP IN THE AIR AND SEE WHAT CAME UP............ opps fell in the pond. Anyway, some else try now and lemme know the results :-) |
| dyamn | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 04:20 PM
i flipped my quarter, it came head..but the question still remains< will it work or not?? what do you say meeru- shall we take the head as 'works' or 'don't work'....???/ b tw, how's your studying going?? ani pond ko najik khelna na jau hai, mosquitos haru lay timro ragat khala nii...... ani pheree pond ma kshyo bhanay:O, but don't worry.. i'll come give you a cpr .... take care ... hajur ko pujareeee dyamn bahadur... |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 04:32 PM
nsshrestha, I wish you would engage with ideas and not make personal slurs. But I guess I am dealing with a galliko bhuseya (the Rs. 250/day hired by Girija that day), so I now know what to expect. "You want to scrutinize the democracy!! fine with me. But you want to beat it to death and examine weather it wakes up again. But you want to beat it to death, so it will never wake up again." Where did you see me beat it to death? O the great blind one...where did you see me do that? One piece of evidence? Or will you again say that the progency of the Blind Mullah needs no evidence because Allah has already said it? "Question here is about your motif. Who ever has read you postings won't need day light to see it." You are someone who does not even have the competence to properly comprehend what I WRITE, how then do you judge my motive? Again, any evidence, or facts will help your cause, other wise you just prove yourself to be a Taliban who just keeps ranting not about ideas but personal attacks. ">>In a very thinly disguised manner, You have issued me a death threat. Such a insecure person you are! Yea, I am designing this software to kill you. if(User == "Suva Chintak") { cout<<"Dhisyaaaaaaaaaaa........." } Have you died yet? ::)))))" Boucha, timele malai marne bhanda kheri ma ta ghamp bhitra lukeko. Malai ta katti pani dar lagena, baru tyo ghampo nai thar thar thar kapenko! Don't take it otherwise Baucha ;--) My own conviction is that Rs. 250/day goons can throw stones, but don't actually have the courage to kill. They only bark, like the bhusiya they are. Biswo, Here we go one more time... "SC, Let me make it very straight to you: I don't care about your challenge. I will do what I want to do on my own time. So, just keep your challenges with yourself." We have a saying in Nepal...harne goru ko cherne bani. You don't care about the challenge because you are not upto it. You are only good at acting like the puffed up mapai and parroting some wrote-learned slogans; no sign of a critical and original position yet. Hopefully I will be disproved someday, but prospects seem pretty gloomy right now. "No, there is no harm. I was just trying to point out to you the fact. Facts, I have always noticed, are as alien to you as are martians." Tell me from your above posting which one fact you pointed out? This is another challenge to you again, this is not too much of a challenge, just show from your own posting where you are dealing with facts and not your biased opinion. You never talk about facts and ideas, you either attack the person, or you come out with your stock mantra like slogans on any issue. Given your penchant for mantras, I am suprised that you did not train to be a Pandit...there are totally free from all facts, logic , evidence and everything is decided by chanting "Dana bardu bali raja, dakshina nadiyera kata jala" formulas. You are afraid of facts, so you take refuge in your well known rhetoric of "I am the best, I know the best, and anyone who doesn't agree with me is with the devil." "As for your rantings about civil debates after labelling your critics Talibani zealots, I just want to laugh off. For the record, when I asked you once whether you went to Mongolia or not, your replied to me that you met some whores whom I supposedly taught some tricks. The posting must still be in sajha." I am glad you are at least laughing...that shows that you at least have a sense of humor, but you don't let it develop enough. If you tried less to be this all knowing, self-righteous Pundit of all matters, you would have realized by now that the Mongolian intervention was a harmless repartee to get you to relax from being such a cyber nazi on every posting I made here. But something now tells me that you have been fantacizing about that little Mongolian whore all these years; in the back of your subconscious you wish that was true, no? You dirty little creep! And you, of all people, should be lecturing us about civility?! My, my, you got some gumption. Finally, to IF bhai in Beijing! Yes, I realize that now. Some of these skunks do not come here with an open mind and charitable heart to debate, exchange ideas, and learn from each other. Like the thugs on the street, their idea of a debate is you are with them or you are against them. God help you if you have a different point of view...they will make vicious personal attacks. What they lack in ideas and facts, they more than make it up with their bhusiya bark. Yes, I know you can't bark back at every kukur that barks at you. But every now and then the canine squad causes so much undeserved, uncalled for personal harassment that you feel like kicking the bastards in the teeth, the hell with it all. But I take your advise, I will try not to be provoked so easily in the future and follow the old Tao injunction to "Let the barking dogs yell, for they can not kill." Yours truly SC |
| GoberGanesh | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 05:09 PM
Here comes the Suva Chintak in his true colors. Observing here, I think you are the one who is refraning from own idea of "engage with ideas and not make personal slurs". Making more than 250 a day makes you a better thinker or better person? My friend, it is reality of Nepal. An average nepali makes 250 rs. After typing three paragraphs, I think you are thinking yourself the prime authority on democracy. I don't think there would be hardly ony one who has yet to read your wisdom which one could find in Politics 101 or intro in Dahl's or Zakareea's book. Stop your nonsense. Should we bow down to you and MR JOSSE, the great thinkers of our time" now? Boy, Can you handle criticism? This is why you like to amuse with the idea of democracy, but not to let it thrieve. |
| Biswo | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 05:12 PM
>You don't care about the challenge >because you are not upto it Yes.Shuva Chintak, very well said. I am not upto the challenge of a man who needs to cleanse his mind urgently of obscene thoughts. A man whose postings credits systems invented by some of the world's dictators as forms of democracy. I hope that makes you happy. You can rest assured of the fact that you are now a self crowned argumentator:-) >Tell me from your above posting which >one fact you pointed out? This is another >challenge to you again. Hehe. Challenge guru, looks like you have a good experience in mat in some wrestling den. If you don't see facts in my postings let me point out to you: i) I wrote that "in democracy, you have to find some flaws to point out that it has some demerits. In autocracy (eg. Gyanendracracy), you need to have a very powerful lens in your glasses to find something good to show that it has some merit. " ii)I wrote that "Classification is not a trivial job, and it is ludicrous to see people taking such job so lightly. Yea, when someone tries to write there are different democracies, saddam type democracy, Kim Il Jung type democracy : then my answer is , ok fella, you got to start reading and thinking again about this issue from abc. As long as popular decisions are not taken by eliciting social summary of citizens'opinion via transparent processes (like election with universal suffrage), you don't have democracy. " Now, I hope it helps. next time may be I should write my postings as fact one, fact two, ki kaso. And yea, to your comrade-in-arm who claims to have learned quite a few by listening occasional lectures from political science profs from Berkeley, Yale and Harvard, a news: that such lectures are given almost everywhere in US institutes. Just by listening to those visiting lecturers, one doesn't become knowledgeable. I love the way you guys pat each other. Commendable friendship, and I wish you enduring bond. It makes both of you feel secure. And just to avoid external scrutiny, why don't you exchange your advises in emails? You used to write all your itineraries in sajha. Now that seems to have stopped, but this suggestion thing has started to surface here. Just use email while exchanging advises. |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 06:37 PM
Now here comes another..... ere comes the Suva Chintak in his true colors." Amen! and I say, here comes all goobar and no Ganeshe! "Observing here, I think you are the one who is refraning from own idea of "engage with ideas and not make personal slurs". Making more than 250 a day makes you a better thinker or better person? My friend, it is reality of Nepal. An average nepali makes 250 rs." Thank you for confirming the fact that some of us here were making Rs. 250/day as Girija's shock troops. But your are in error to think that an average Nepali makes Rs. 250 a day. The average wage is less than Rs. 75/day. So what the thugs make is much higher than what the janata janardan make in a day. "After typing three paragraphs, I think you are thinking yourself the prime authority on democracy. I don't think there would be hardly ony one who has yet to read your wisdom which one could find in Politics 101 or intro in Dahl's or Zakareea's book. Stop your nonsense." I don't know what to say to you here. On the one hand you state that what I write here is what you found in "Politics 101 or intro in Dalhl's or Zakareea's book; but on the hand you tell me to shut up. If I am really saying what is considered to be authoratative stuff in American academica, then why are you guys attacking me so vehemently? Or is it that you are false pundits and so hurt by truth? "Should we bow down to you and MR JOSSE, the great thinkers of our time" now?" Where did I say that I or Josse were the great thinker of our times? I never made that claim and infact I made it clear in my very first posting that this was one person's perspective and it ought to be taken with a pinch of salt. Did you really read my posting or are you just joining the attack pack here? "Boy, Can you handle criticism? This is why you like to amuse with the idea of democracy, but not to let it thrieve." OK, I admit that I let it off too. But again, if you read this thread carefully, you will see that it was not me but the high purets who began the personal attacks. I did not start this negative attack tone, I just responded when the people began hurling insults. So if you are trying to be a neutral judge here, you should see where it all started. But if you are part of the attack pack, I can handle one more. I can handle it when the discussion is of civil and we are criticizing each other's views and ideas. But when the other side starts a deliberate personal attack, I some times respond. Nepali ma kuro cha ni, jasta lai testai, dhindho lai nistai. I hope you are able to handle criticism much better than myself. Biswo, Thank you for taking up the challenge finally, but what you presented in I and II are not facts but your subjective opinions with a heavy dose of personal attacks. I thought you knew the distinction between facts and opinions. That doesn't leave much to say here does it? I pity the advisor. I just have one solution for this spat. If you are convinced of your position and arguments, let us make a deal to settle this in a new way. You print this thread and give it to one of your American professors to read and ask them to evaluate both your and my discussion (to give it a polite name). I will give it to a similar person here and we can then compare their notes to see what other people, not involved in the present exchange, think of our ideas, arguments and style of conversation. An extenal assessment ought to settle this for once and all. Is that a deal? Hope you won't dodge the challenge :--) |
| Biswo | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 06:55 PM
SC, Now, you are becoming civil in dealing with me. Thanks:-) OK, what I counterpropose is: You print this, give it to your professor and ask his opinion. Show me what he thinks, and give me his name. I will accept his judgement. Because the professors I am in contact with here are often so busy, I would like to use all time I can get from them in using my current term papers and course problems rather than asking them to arbitrate in extracurricular spat. |
| Prem Charo | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 08:17 PM
Suva Chintak, I just regret why I wasted my time in reading this tread. After all, this thread turned out to be something that challenges each other. Is that the sole rationale of this thread? To shoot your mouth off how well you take hold of democracy? Be pragmatic, unripe advocate of democracy. My opinion in C++, If (country == "Nepal"){ cout << "Democracy NEVER works"< } ;) Hasi majak garne charo = prem charo |
| jaya_nepal | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 08:41 PM
Prem Charo, I would add another loop to yours.. while(present political leaders) { cout<<"No true Democracy"; } jaya_nepal..!!! |
| GoberGanesh | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 08:50 PM
Suva Chinatak Hajur, It was quite a labor to dig in to our genealogy. Any way we are brothers so I should reciprocate inyour tone...:) hehe Ganesh Yatra ko suruwat ho, Ganesh sambriddhi ko prastawana ho. Ganesh agragaman ko pratyaya ho. Char Ganesh birajit kathmandu ko adhogati herda lagchha, Euta samaya nirapekchhya Ganesh dristi bilop chha. we are missing one Ganesh. Pratigaman ko Ganesh - The Guhu Ganesh. So I would like to invoke all mightly lords to incept you as a New Ganesh at the door of your over loard's palace Narayanhiti as a Guhu Ganesh. He Bishnu Birajit Baikuntha ka dwarpal - Lead us to more darkness, lead us to more regression. Om Santi, Santi, Santi. The barrage of attack coming here is not because what you said in this thread, but what you intend to say. Avid readers of Sajha know that your chant of democracy is just like mahila maharaj ko election ko guff. When people change color, it catches suspicion. |
| stri_brood | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 09:21 PM
SUCK UP THE TRUTH!! DEMOCRACY WILL WORK EVERYWHERE BUT IN NEPAL! WHY? CAUSE OUR DEMOCRAT ADVOCATES LIKE IN THIS THREAD ARE BLINDED BY THEIR OWN SELFISH PRINCIPLES OF HOW WORLD WORKS! BISWO SIR, PERSONALLY, I AM MORE SCARED OF YOU THAN GYANE OR BABU, PROVIDED MONARCHY AND MAOISTS ARE ANNHILITED! |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 09:49 PM
Bisow jyu, That is a deal. What better way to resolve this 'discussion'! Prem Charo jyu, I am sorry you had to waste your precious time. But don't you think we learn by challenging each other by learning to rationally defend our convictions, even if they have gained a rather religious fervor about it all? If done with civility, the process can be educative. I only hope that you didn't include me in what you aptly described as the 'unripe advocate of democracy' crowd: I too subscribe to the old wisdom that says "Annadi c---e burki sattyanas." Hassi maja ko charo is always a welcome charo in this corner of the woods! GG ho ki chi chi ho? And who else do we have here but our Goober Ganesheji! Are we previleged to have such august presence among us low dwarpal people. It is so kind of you to get off your high horse to be with us here. There is an old saying in Nepali: "Jhayu mitra bhanda buddiman shatru asal huncha." When Goober here claims he has some geneological connection with me, why do I suddenly get this stinking feeling? With a brother like this, who needs enemies, no? Nice try!! It shows it is not all Goobar in there. Anyway, I don't do that kind of puretai mantra santra chant. After Pandit khem raj yesterday resigned from the palace to join the progression movement, they are looking for a puret. With all this om shanti bull shit, I think you will fit the bill there. Since Gynendra might die soon due to the chants on the street, there will be the added bounus of another huge katto. "The barrage of attack coming here is not because what you said in this thread, but what you intend to say." Baje, how did you know what I intended to say that is not in my writing? Om shanti matra haina jaise kaam garna pani auncha kya ho? Lau hai baje sanga nasakine ba...manko kuro pani kasto thayaki patta lagako ganthe! "Avid readers of Sajha know that your chant of democracy is just like mahila maharaj ko election ko guff." Do you read my postings or are you just doing this mumbo-jumbo stuff? Where did you see me making a chant for democracy? I leave all such religious bhajan chanting stuff to karma kandi pandas like you: I simply rock. "When people change color, it catches suspicion." So baje le pheri pultung khaye jasto cha. I have not changed, nor do I intend to. If you can show me with evidence where I have changed my position as you claim, I am willing to do a bhainsi daan to you. Next time, come up with some better stuff. This "I am your brother, om shanti" kind of stale and oft-recycled crap simply fails to entertain after a while. Jai tu sanskritam SC PS: We don't have to act out our aliases here on Sajha all the time. I am suprised the site administrator has not informed you yet...or did you fail to comprehend? |
| dyamn | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 09:53 PM
not being racist/castist /sexist or whateever 'st' but just curious how com ppl (most ppl) who are against king gynandra are "Brahmins" and most supporters of the King are "chhetries". what's the deal? haven' twe learned anything from all the drama in Nepal taht has come out of the cast system? |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 15-Apr-04 09:55 PM
Slight correction folks, bear with me: Please read as "With a brother like Goobar Ganeshe, who needs shit" on line 13 of my previous posting instead of what appeared inadvertently. Ciao Ed. |
| Poonte | Posted
on 16-Apr-04 02:20 AM
If autocracy was to work in Nepal, they had their chance for 30 years! As a matter of fact, if we count the Rana rule too, autocracy had it's chance for almost the ENTIRE history of modern Nepal. The result? Here we are: Vast majority still live in immense destitution and a state of utter hopelessness. Why? Because they were never given a chance to make mistakes [via democracy] and learn from them. THEY [THE SO-CALLED LEADERS] NEVER HAD FAITH IN THE PEOPLE, AND WERE TOLD THAT THEY [THE PEOPLE] WERE NOT "READY" FOR DEMOCRACY. As mentioned earlier, even the events of 1990 failed to put TRUE democracy in test in Nepal. So, in the face of the fact that autocracy failed miserably over the DECADES, why not give TRUE democracy a chance? It's about time that rather than telling people that they are not "ready" for democracy, someone offered a genuine basic tenets of democracy to the people and let them develop it into a full-blown, healthy, strong, and viable democracy in Nepal in the generations to come. Once again, if we keep denying the people their basic, fundamental rights by using the excuse that they are not "ready" for it, the more "not-ready-for-democracy" we make them! |
| nsshrestha | Posted
on 16-Apr-04 06:20 AM
//Friday Morning snippet for c++ enthusiats.. # define PERM_POWER = People; # define TEMP_POWER = Army + ArmedPolice + Police; ofstream SuvaChintak.open("Sajha.com", ios::app); void Nepal::Politics(bool Maharaj) { bool Maoist = false; long Power = TEMP_POWER; long PoliticalParties = PERM_POWER; try { try { while(Maharaj && Power) { //Kill(); /*commented out till the functional is fully functional*/ SuvaChintak<<"Maharaj ki Jaya Hos"< if(Power) { PoliticalParties--; continue; } if(!PoliticalParties && !Power) { Maoist = true; MahilMaharaj = false; break; } if(PoliticalParties > Power) { Power--; continue; } if(StreetProtest) { Power --; PoliticalParties++; } } if(Maoist) { Chaos(); } cout<<"Democracy"< } catch(Exception*e) { Politics(Paras); } } __finally { SuvaChintak.close(); Cout<<"Democracy"< } //debuggers are welcomeed. I do not hold any grudges againt debuggers of any type //- royalist, non- royalist, maoist :)))))))) |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 16-Apr-04 07:53 AM
Suva Chintak Dai, Now you saw for yourself the "in-the box" mentality, i.e, kuwa ko bhayguto mentality of some of the people you were responding in this thread. Tell me: Did you learn anything new or interesting here? I guess not. The more you get involved with the people who just don't want to think outside the box, the more depressing, boring and nasty it gets. This is why, I suggested you to stay away from all these self proclaimed gurus here. Now, somebody wants to tell me how/what happens in the US colleges! Great, having never been to the US of A, and having never heard of the US colleges, I didn't know all that that they have a series of scuh lectures in the US, and listening to those so-called experts is less enlightening than reading the democracy tune in Sajha. Mero Maha Oho Bhagya- at least learned something. Well, now straight talking: If you and your comrade in Arms can use this board to congratulate yourselves and pat each otehr all the time, then, we too have the same rights. My advise to SC was a general one regarding what was/is happening in Sajha. Look at yourself, your action and your words when you advise others on how to use this board. Your problem is: You don't like challeneges and that's because you probably were never challenged before. When you enter the discussions thinking that its only you who is smart, and even Indra-ko-Bau-Candra cannot contradict you, then you are terribley mistaken. Like I said before, democracy means accpeting the fact that tehre are many peope in the world who do not share your POV, its not launching an all out battle of words to discredit and defame your opponent. In a way, by showing your extreme narrow mindedness by not allowing yourself to accept the differences, you are making fun of what your are preaching, i.e, democracy. Talk about Nepal: Your views can be summarized as YOUR views, and that you cannot just forcibely make people accept your views. Welcome to the real world. It is always easy to say, if this or that happens, Nepal will be a lot better. You don't need to be a PhD student in the US to be able to say this. However, the real challenege is to persuade the people that how it is going to be good when "this" happens. To break it down, your arguments are like, Nepal will be a better country if there is no King. maybe, who knows- Maybe Nepal will be a better country. But how? The question is not what.. but HOW. What will be the immediate transition like? Who will control the state during the transition period? How do you make sure that Nepal will not have a wide-spread civil war? How do you choose/elect the President? What will be the new constitution like? What...when you yourself brush aside such questions and just say, yesto bahye yestop huncha.. then you have to understand one simple thing: People have read BS like that in Sajha for a long time now and they won't just take your nonsense laden with heavy-duty words like BrahmaBakya. Now that I have clarified my position, I can totally sense that your next post will have a lot of adjectives and labels for me, and you know what..I won't mind that. You have the same rights, so if you the learned one and the democratic one wants to reply, that's perfectly fine with me, and if I find it worthy of reply, I will reply.. however, I doubt that.. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 16-Apr-04 08:56 AM
Poonte bro, I disagree. Your point is a godo one: How do we know that people are not ready for a system unless you accept/promote that system? This is a good point, but: There are always problems with sudden transitions. As I said in my earlier reply to you, Nepal or any other country which is yet to become a fully demorcatic nation by the western standards, needs to follow a step-by-step appraoch. The first step is to achieve at least 90% literacy rate. The second step is to develop infrastructures necessary for the economic development. The third step is to have a stable economy. The fourth step is to "educate" the people about democracy, its merits and demerits. Then the last step is to, in a phase wise manner, start democratizing the nation. If you implement this model, then in 20-30 eyars you will have a well-run democratic nation. If you just opt foir a sudden transition, then it will be like Nepal and Russia. You don't seem to be happy with the fact that there are staunch Royalists in Nepal. But have youe ver thought why Nepalis are more and more supporting the King instead of the Political Parties? This is the question to think over. Who in Nepal had thought that the 1990 crowd that protested against the King would in 15 eyars time, be reallys iupportive of him? Why? What made these people change their ideology(-ies) all of a sudden. Although, not an expert on all these, I would say, its haphazardly imposed democracy and the democratic leaders' actions of the last 15 years. We can draw the similarity between Nepal and Russia. The Russians hated the Soviet Union and the Communist party for its flaws, and always thought that the multi-party democracy would make their lives much better, however, what happened was exactly the opposite. Then you have parties like the LDP... The same thing can be said about the Czech Republic and Poland. In the second general elections held under the democratic rule, the former Communists/Rulers won or got an impressive percenatge. Why? Because the democratic leaders just couldn't figure out a way to lead the nation. They neither have any economic plan, nor had any transition period plan. So, the whole economy went down. Things started getting worse. In Russia, people had to make a choice: Whether to buy a loaf of bread or buy Pravda. (I know you know all anbout this). Singapore under Lee Kuan Yu and Malaysia under Dr. Mahathir developed a lot faster because they focused more on economic development than all that western junk. China is doing the same and is hosting the 2008 beijing Olympics, which is considered to be one of the most expensive olympics. In Nepal, Panchayat was not the ideal system, I agree, but what were the althernatives? If Nepal didn't have the Panchayat for tree decades, then there wouldn't be any Nepal today. Just like the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia. The rulers had by coersion or whatever tactics had at least presreved the national unity. The new rulers just couldn't do it. The result: They all broke down. Nepal would have suffered the same plight if it wasn't for the Panchayat. 1990- panchayat out, multi-partty in but things got even worse and the leaders made it worse by: 1. In the name of democratic reforms, they got rid of all the good civil servants and bureaucrats to fill in those positions with their party karyakartas. 2. Although panchayat was not an dieal system, it had, in its 30 eayrs, a plan to move the nation ahead. The neo-rulers just didn't even find it necessary to look at the Panchayat's policy on development and economy. They just wante dto get rid of everything old, so they came up with their own plan which was way off from the reality. The result: no development, either economic or infrastructure for the first few years. Then when the nation was actually moving forward despite the internal feuds, you have the Maoists! 3. The political leaders would have gotten a bit respect from the Kathmandu elites and unafiliated villagers, if they had adopted a more practical approach to deal with the Asoj-14 ko kadam. Instead they chose to show ythe height of political unawareness following the asoj-14. I don't know where you were then, but I was in Kathmandu. the enxt day, major newspapers had sponsored advertisements from the people and the private business houses, who "sincerely" thanked the King for his Kadam. And I don't think it was in any way sponsored by the King. People were just happy, even the political party leaders were happy that Deuba was gone. The Poliytical parties remained quiet hoping that it will be their turn to form the governmnet, however, it didn't happen. Chand took over, and whether one agrees or not, i think that was the best cabinet we ever had- It had people from allw alks of life. However, the parties, instead of supporting the new governmnet and saying that they would co-operate with the governmnet to hold the general elections and to solve the Maoist problem, chose to sadhai kich kich kich kich.. If they ahd done that, i.e., rendered support to the govt. and worke dtogether with the KIng and his governmnet tos olve the Maoist problem, I think, we would now be having a parliament and an elected goivernmnet. Anyways, the point is: imposing a system alien to the people in the short run brings euphoria, however in the not so long run, creates a lkot of problems and the problems worsen if the eladers are like Girija and Makune. So, the ebst way to go about imposing democracy is by following the step by step appraoch. If not, we will have militant democracy (an oxymoron) in which people insteasd of respecting the other POV, will kill each other.. and break things up, like its ahppening in Nepal. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 16-Apr-04 08:57 AM
Poonte bro, I disagree. Your point is a godo one: How do we know that people are not ready for a system unless you accept/promote that system? This is a good point, but: There are always problems with sudden transitions. As I said in my earlier reply to you, Nepal or any other country which is yet to become a fully demorcatic nation by the western standards, needs to follow a step-by-step appraoch. The first step is to achieve at least 90% literacy rate. The second step is to develop infrastructures necessary for the economic development. The third step is to have a stable economy. The fourth step is to "educate" the people about democracy, its merits and demerits. Then the last step is to, in a phase wise manner, start democratizing the nation. If you implement this model, then in 20-30 eyars you will have a well-run democratic nation. If you just opt foir a sudden transition, then it will be like Nepal and Russia. You don't seem to be happy with the fact that there are staunch Royalists in Nepal. But have youe ver thought why Nepalis are more and more supporting the King instead of the Political Parties? This is the question to think over. Who in Nepal had thought that the 1990 crowd that protested against the King would in 15 eyars time, be reallys iupportive of him? Why? What made these people change their ideology(-ies) all of a sudden. Although, not an expert on all these, I would say, its haphazardly imposed democracy and the democratic leaders' actions of the last 15 years. We can draw the similarity between Nepal and Russia. The Russians hated the Soviet Union and the Communist party for its flaws, and always thought that the multi-party democracy would make their lives much better, however, what happened was exactly the opposite. Then you have parties like the LDP... The same thing can be said about the Czech Republic and Poland. In the second general elections held under the democratic rule, the former Communists/Rulers won or got an impressive percenatge. Why? Because the democratic leaders just couldn't figure out a way to lead the nation. They neither have any economic plan, nor had any transition period plan. So, the whole economy went down. Things started getting worse. In Russia, people had to make a choice: Whether to buy a loaf of bread or buy Pravda. (I know you know all anbout this). Singapore under Lee Kuan Yu and Malaysia under Dr. Mahathir developed a lot faster because they focused more on economic development than all that western junk. China is doing the same and is hosting the 2008 beijing Olympics, which is considered to be one of the most expensive olympics. In Nepal, Panchayat was not the ideal system, I agree, but what were the althernatives? If Nepal didn't have the Panchayat for tree decades, then there wouldn't be any Nepal today. Just like the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia. The rulers had by coersion or whatever tactics had at least presreved the national unity. The new rulers just couldn't do it. The result: They all broke down. Nepal would have suffered the same plight if it wasn't for the Panchayat. 1990- panchayat out, multi-partty in but things got even worse and the leaders made it worse by: 1. In the name of democratic reforms, they got rid of all the good civil servants and bureaucrats to fill in those positions with their party karyakartas. 2. Although panchayat was not an dieal system, it had, in its 30 eayrs, a plan to move the nation ahead. The neo-rulers just didn't even find it necessary to look at the Panchayat's policy on development and economy. They just wante dto get rid of everything old, so they came up with their own plan which was way off from the reality. The result: no development, either economic or infrastructure for the first few years. Then when the nation was actually moving forward despite the internal feuds, you have the Maoists! 3. The political leaders would have gotten a bit respect from the Kathmandu elites and unafiliated villagers, if they had adopted a more practical approach to deal with the Asoj-14 ko kadam. Instead they chose to show ythe height of political unawareness following the asoj-14. I don't know where you were then, but I was in Kathmandu. the enxt day, major newspapers had sponsored advertisements from the people and the private business houses, who "sincerely" thanked the King for his Kadam. And I don't think it was in any way sponsored by the King. People were just happy, even the political party leaders were happy that Deuba was gone. The Poliytical parties remained quiet hoping that it will be their turn to form the governmnet, however, it didn't happen. Chand took over, and whether one agrees or not, i think that was the best cabinet we ever had- It had people from allw alks of life. However, the parties, instead of supporting the new governmnet and saying that they would co-operate with the governmnet to hold the general elections and to solve the Maoist problem, chose to sadhai kich kich kich kich.. If they ahd done that, i.e., rendered support to the govt. and worke dtogether with the KIng and his governmnet tos olve the Maoist problem, I think, we would now be having a parliament and an elected goivernmnet. Anyways, the point is: imposing a system alien to the people in the short run brings euphoria, however in the not so long run, creates a lkot of problems and the problems worsen if the eladers are like Girija and Makune. So, the ebst way to go about imposing democracy is by following the step by step appraoch. If not, we will have militant democracy (an oxymoron) in which people insteasd of respecting the other POV, will kill each other.. and break things up, like its ahppening in Nepal. |
| nsshrestha | Posted
on 16-Apr-04 09:06 AM
Suva Chintak, Quitye a vomiting you had done over night!! You put me on a dilemma weather to bite the dog or not. "Boudhhik Bhatgiri" does it hurt so badly? Or have I hit you on your weakest spot? O wise one, rather than obscurly projecting yourself on the backgroud, If you thoght my predisposition was entirely worong, why don't you put forth your take on Nepalese politics? Have you reached the asymptotic upperbound or you have yet to come with fifth model of democracy? Astha ko yo bandi pratyagraha bata mukti chahanchha! What 250 Rs are you talking about? I left nepal before these buffoons were enthrowned / dethrowned. Handi Asrit Prani le 250 ko majdoor lai challange? hehe:) Finally, I could not stop bitting the dog. Khwasa macha, babucha does not speak newari and has command of Nepali..:))) Anyway, your derogatory racial slur suits you well. Isolated freak, First graduate on "Chinese Model of Democracy", and we will talk about the quagmire you depicted. A step at a time. Charaibeti..Charaibeti... |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 16-Apr-04 09:36 AM
Further along my points: Nepal did not have any true political party. The communists leaders are leaders just ebcaus eof the afct that they read some Hindi paperback translation of Marx, and the Congressis are there because they participated in the "2007" saal and India's independence movement. But, are only those qualities enough to lead Nepal? No. Also, our parties' leaders have turne dout to be the most un-political in the world. In 2046, they made an error: they opted for the British model. This was a huge tactical error on their part. Instead, they should have agreed to form a joint governmnet, and learn the art of statecraft from their predecessors, and in a gradual manner, strengthen the new system by coming up with a new constitution and holding the general elections. They should have also come up with the national interests in which there was no compromise and should have given continuity to the Zone of Peace proposal. This would have led Nepal into the first few phases of fully democratic reforms and practices. However, their short-sightedness barred them from analzying the issues and coming up with a stable economic policies. Also, the biggest flaw was in the moment of victory and 15 eayrs later: They totally underestimated their opponent, i.e., the Palace. This was one of the major policy mistakes the party did. If we had good politicans, they wouldn't have udnerestimated their opponent, but.. k garney.. This is why we are seing these ego-clashes and violence in Nepal right now. The nation experimented with the multi-party democracy, but failed to democratize the parties', its leaders and the people. Democracy was defined as whoever thinks otherwise, he is a Pratigami twatwa or in the communist term, barga satru (class-enemy). Instead of holding at least a few meetings with the misnisters and the sachibs of the 2046 and before, and benifiting from their experience, the new leaders just dismissed them even when they themssleves lacked the major policy making people. Instead of making people supportive of the new form of governmnet, they started alienating them, and soon the modern was divided more than it was during its 250+ years history. These three factors (1) underestimating your opponents (2) karyakartas in the civil service and (3) divisoion among the people, led to what we are witnessing right now. And the worst thing is: The party leaders still don't realize all these. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 16-Apr-04 09:37 AM
soon the modern was divided more than it was during its 250+ years history. = Modern Nepal |
| sankaa | Posted
on 16-Apr-04 10:53 AM
nnshrestha too many bugs into your system, just like in the head of girija.. and other politicians... |
| Hellbound | Posted
on 16-Apr-04 11:54 AM
Your problem is: You don't like challeneges and that's because you probably were never challenged before. When you enter the discussions thinking that its only you who is smart, and even Indra-ko-Bau-Candra cannot contradict you, then you are terribley mistaken. Isolate_Freak, Very well said. |
| Nepe | Posted
on 16-Apr-04 12:57 PM
Shuva Chintak and his comrade-in arm Isolated Freak, two royalists with ferver of a Mulaah themselves, have, on several occasions, given their verdicts that Nepali people should accept autocratic rule of Shah family. The rest is mere detail. Although SC is faking a pose of rational queries, questioning, examination and all that, the matter of fact is that both SC's and IF's verdict to the autocratic rule of Shah family comes from their LOYALTY to the royal family that runs in their blood, not from the SCHOLAR REASONING that SC is faking. Otherwise why SC would 'examine' democracy just to rediscover the inherent weakness of the system every student of democracy knows, and leave it right there as if that would automatically justify his all time verdict for restoring the autocratic rule of Shah family in Nepal. And why he never 'examines' the Shahcratic form of democracy with the same yardstick applied to other forms he classifies himself ? *************** As for the original query, The question for now and for ever should be 'How to make democracy work in Nepal' rather than 'Will democracy work in Nepal'. Because we don't have alternatives. There is one more reason for that- and that in fact is the mother of all reasons- Nepali people are and will always be for democracy. Even if the autocratic rule of Shah family is better than democracy as suggested by a Harvard Pundit, Nepali people are never going to accept that. Janata sanga kasko bau ko ke laagchha ? ************** Timewise, however, the question 'Will democracy work in Nepal' is right. Because we are yet to have democracy. The past decade was an experiment with handicapped democracy (with soveriengty still in hands of the royal family). It failed. It had to. We have a lot of potential Lee Kuan Yew; they just have not joined the politics or are in oblivion. There simply was missing the only thing needed for them in our handicapped democracy- the supreme power and the atmosphere of opportunity and responsibility that it creates. It is a bad joke when Nepali royalists talk about Lee Kuan Yews. Lee Kuan Yews are not the first son of a king, they are janatako chhorachhori. Hello ? |
| Prem Charo | Posted
on 16-Apr-04 11:05 PM
Nepe, Shame on you for your ghinlagdo comment!! Late King Birendra handed democracy to Nepali people and leaders as a baby, but those hungry leaders misused and abused democracy as an orphan child. Consequently, I can proclaim that Girija and other leaders were step-dad. They produced the leaders like Khum Bahadur Khadka and Govinda Raj Joshi... Now, you are saying they were experimenting for a decade. Well, current king might have done some mistekes for NOT doing anything good for the country, but did late King gave nepali people democracy for experiment for a freaking DECADE??? What a ridiculous remark!!! how can you argue democracy that was already disabled when it was handed??? Shame on you!! You are now saying like our leaders couldnot handle democracy for a decade. If they get it back, they will handle with care?????? |
| Prem Charo | Posted
on 16-Apr-04 11:07 PM
I can proclaim that Girija and other leaders treated democracy like their step-son. |
| M.P. | Posted
on 16-Apr-04 11:31 PM
Last time I checked, PC, we were talking here about things that make sense. Based on your comment above, I would say you are most appropriate for "Who is who--just for fun" and "who is Prem Charo" -type of threads. Nothing personal -- just commenting on your comments. Also, from the previous postings, I can see we are talking about DEMOCRACY itself, not about people who practiced it and how they did so. If you ask me, I agree that the politicians have failed miserably in practicing democracry -- in whatever level it existed -- but seems like we have not talked about what made them fail the semi-democracy we had. Maila dai has committed more crimes in the last year and a half more crimes than what political parties committed in the last 12 years! Those of you who have been adamently trying to protect Maila dai or his institution might want to reconsider your judgement; guess what, everybody, including the doctors and the journalists (and even human right organizations), is in the street now. If this butcher king has been doing well, I guess the intellegestia would not have been so easily swayed by the political parties who cheated the people all along. Agreed, everybody has committed mistakes in the past: the Maoists, the politicians and the king. What we need to look at, at least from my perspective, is what is good for the FUTURE. But hey, you guys are all intellectuals! And the fact remains: you guys have failed -- miserably!!-- in convincing me, and it seems like many others including Nepe and Biswo, that active monarchy is what we need today. If I may ask for a favor from honorable intellectuals, could you shed light on what kind of democracy is best for Nepal. Put it another way, would you call what the king is doing now democratic? I am asking it just out of curiosity. No lengthy lecture required; a simply yes or no will suffice. Thank you in advance for your one-word response. |
| Nepali Kanchi | Posted
on 16-Apr-04 11:47 PM
Isolated Freak ji said, "...Nepal or any other country which is yet to become a fully nation by the western standards, needs to follow a step-by-step appraoch." What is your idea of "western democracy" ? a place where, fear of thy neighbour ; consumption; and media control (quasi matirx) are the elements that RULE? Do we want that western democracy" in Nepal? In the United States of America, one can "protest" so freely on the street, but millions people on the streets can't stop this country from going into war. At least, in Nepal, the King is so scared of public opinion that he feels the need to ban public protests. Or a gathering of more than five individuals! |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 12:18 AM
WILL DEMOCRACY WORK IN NEPAL????????????????? why not, it will surely work in Nepal...... I heard some comments that Birendra gave Democracy.......I would like to correct this statement.............Birendra didn't give us Democracy, but we fought and took the Democracy....This shows the mentality of these some of the sajahlites...:(((( I don't understand the fact that People think Democracy is a magical system,wth which all their problems are gone.....In our country, People fought for Democracy, but then they left them in the hands of the Netas....the result of which we are asking the question " WILL DEMOCRACY WORK IN NEPAL?" We got the seedling, but we should have given it more care, more water, more sunlight to flourish. But what did we do?? Why can't we accept our mistakes and only blaiming others, say Netas...these Netas are also the product of the same society where we live.......So, we also share some their crimes... It will take time, I don't know how much???.........But Democracy has no alternative. It is far far better than autocratic rule of Gyane, which is actually not possible to hold for long time......If he will try that, there won't be king in Nepal.......then we will start telling stories to our grandchildren, there used to be king in Nepal.........the hyperactivity of this Gyane will be his downfall...........People are forgetting that this guy, Gyane was more corrupted than our Girija, Makune. He was the one who was running Mafia in Nepal under the shade of palace......So his crimes aren't gone, when he became king.... Long live Nepal (with out gyane certainly) jaya nepal |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 07:27 AM
What is your idea of "western democracy" ? a place where, fear of thy neighbour ; consumption; and media control (quasi matirx) are the elements that RULE? Do we want that western democracy" in Nepal? In the United States of America, one can "protest" so freely on the street, but millions people on the streets can't stop this country from going into war. At least, in Nepal, the King is so scared of public opinion that he feels the need to ban public protests. Or a gathering of more than five individuals! Nepali Kanchi, First of all, you don't have to use ji/jyu anything while addressing me. Now, getting to your query (-ies): What is a full democracy? The full democracy by western standards is the rule of law where citizens have human rights and freedom and all that. However, the west which promotes this model of democracy in the third world countries like Nepal, itself doesn't have this perfect model. I agree with you: Much can be debated about the American "lobby" model democracy and the British democracy, but you have to understand one thing: With Globalziation and Free Market, everything is corporatized (corporation+ ized). And only a handful of people like Ruport Murdoch decide what we should know and not know, and when/how we should know. This is it. So, the Perfect model is yet to be achieved, but some countries are near perfection. The second part of your question deals more with the Machiavellian Realism. This is it: You can't always satisfy the mob. If you satisfy their demands all the time, you are a weak leader. This is why the millions of protestors in the US and elsewhere couldn't stop the war. I can go on and on, and it will be quite boring for you.. So, why don't you check out this book by Kaplan, Warrior Politics: Why Leadership Demands A Pagan Ethos. I just love a sentence from this book: If you are a leader bent on doing good things, then at times you have to be bad. |
| Cuban Pete | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 07:52 AM
The one democracy you are talking about that was handed by the the Late King Birendra was of course not a full-fledged demorcracy. If it was.. how could the present king could snap it with a flick of his finger. How could the present Crown Prince could get away when he had a vehicular homicide of a musician when so called democracy was still intact back then(if you could remember). The democracy your late king handed(as you like to call it) was never a full blown democracy. Just because political parties could demonstrate whenever they want to does not mean that we had democracy. Democracy works when there are rules and regulation and everyone goes by the book. But of course it is a long process. Let us not be disheartened by some bad potatoes. In the long run, there is no alternative to democracy and the present King better understand that. Sooner the better for his own cause. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 08:03 AM
MP, You are forgetting one thing here: Nobody here is denying that democracy is the best system in the world. We all love to see our representatives making decisions which are in the ebst interests of the nation and the people. However, it will take some time for this to happen in Nepal. First, we have to have infrastructures necessary for democracy to flourish. Sudden transition didn't work out in Nepal or anywehre else. You cannot just turn your bedroom into kitchen overnight. You have to install cabinets, wash basins and sinks to turn it intio a kitchen. This requires planning. The whole process takes some time and you have to be patient. Singapore and Benin started the reforms at the same time. In 30 years, Singapore with its Lee Kuan Yu mild authoritarianism catched up with the west, wherea s Benin with its full fledged democracy fell to the bottom of the chart of the nations who had no tax economies. Imposing a system isn't just enough. Its making people ready to accept the imposed system. This takes a lot of time. For example, why did people take it to the streets protesting against Dr. Mahathir's resignation announcement last year? Why is Mustafa Kemal Attaturk a reverred figure in Turkey than other democratically elected leaders? Why is Gen Perverez Musharraf's Pakistan free of religious violence? Why the West thinks that King Hussein was a good leader and diplomat when the King had dissolved the parliament? Why did China is ahead of India? (Kaplan, Warrior Politics) At times the world needs leaders who are strong and who can go against the tide to implement waht they think will benifit the nation, and believe me or not, these are the leaders the world admires. Democracy takes a long time to develop. People have to become democratic themselves first and then democratize the nation.That is why I said, its a phase wise slow process. There's no way Nepal will have a fully functioning democracy if things continue this way. To democratize Nepal, we have to have the infrastructre and peace first, and to have these two essentials, we need a strong ruler who can guaranty that. If things go the way they are going now in Nepal, in 30 years time, Nepal will be divided into 30 different countries. We had democracy for 15 eyars and that led us 30 years backward in terms of development. So the question is: do we want to move forward or backward? If the answer is move forward, then you have to compromise on all those democratic ideals you read in your school textbooks, and be patient. If you choose the latter, then, you have to be on the streets in Nepal and protest against the "regression". In the end, the choice is yours! (ah! I love this word- choice!) |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 08:05 AM
Why did China is ahead of India? = Why is China agead of India? |
| Pushkar Samarthak | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 09:03 AM
Yeah, the choice is yours whether to donate money for World Peace Biking of Pushkar Shah or not!!! :-) |
| Prem Charo | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 10:45 AM
M.P. Said, "Last time I checked, PC, we were talking here about things that make sense. Based on your comment above, I would say you are most appropriate for "Who is who--just for fun" and "who is Prem Charo" -type of threads. Nothing personal -- just commenting on your comments. Also, from the previous postings, I can see we are talking about DEMOCRACY itself, not about people who practiced it and how they did so. If you ask me, I agree that the politicians have failed miserably in practicing democracry -- in whatever level it existed -- but seems like we have not talked about what made them fail the semi-democracy we had." What comment you're making here? I can only see your futile point here, nothing else. And yes, I also think that you're just good for "Parmendra Bhagat Appointed for interim PM" thread, not the topics like Democracy. Nothing personal -- just commenting on your comments:-) What do you guys mean by king never gave Nepali people full-fleaged democracy? I still argue that the late king handed full-fleaged democracy, which became like "Coconut in monkeys hand." Bandar ko haat ma nariwol. I will tell you how leaders misleaded democracy and made Nepal, look like a bloddy desert. 1. Obsesssion with their kursi, rather than worrying about jantas and desh, such as Girija and Deuwa. It was so ridiculous to read that news that Deuwa would solve the Maoist problem within six months if he's reinstated as PM. He's the one who is responsible for parliament disolve and handing the power to King G. Now, he's saying if he gets that position back, he would resolve maoist problem? Was he unaware of Maoist problem when he was PM? 2. Another reason: dicipline of Side Kicks (Chamchas).. why do you guys always talk about democracy aganist the king, and NEVER TALK ABOUT THE VIOLATION OF BASIC POLICIES OF THESE PARTIES. Why couldn't they keep up their promises; these followers alwyas looked for big positions like GM or Ministers for the personal achivements. Yesterday Panches accumulated wealth, after democracy these leaders and chamchas followed the same foot steps, even more aggressively. 3. They experimented democracy for more than decade, in which they produced masoist. <> Why these party leaders can't be together and support present government for fair election. In this case nobody has to fight for kursi. People will choose their own government. |
| Prem Charo | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 10:47 AM
Isolate freak, I agree with you--You are forgetting one thing here: Nobody here is denying that democracy is the best system in the world. |
| Biswo | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 11:58 AM
> so if you the learned one and >the democratic one wants to reply, > that's perfectly fine with me, and if > I find it worthy of reply, I will reply.. >however, I doubt that.. You don't have to whine like that IF. I will give you the last word. What you just wrote is: you can write , but I may not reply. I mean, yea, if you don't want to reply, just don't reply. But you want me to think that since you are not going to reply, so I should relent. And what is this your dai suva chintak doing to you? You are crying since months, 'dai don't debate with Biswo.. dai don't debate with Biswo' . And yet, you know what, it is suva chintak who is the one always asking me question first, challenging me first in sajha. I have NEVER initiated any debate since months with him. However, my observation is: suva chintak is a lot more mature person than you. He knows who to talk to and who not to listen to. I am not here responsible for INCREASING your or anyone else's 'intellect' in sajha. You may or may not learn anything here, and I don't give a damn. You are in a government scholarship in China, so I guess if you focus on your class, you will learn more, and the government also expects you to work hard there.At least, as somone suggested, first learn about 'Chinese style democracy' and 'rationale' behind Tiananmen Massacre. |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 11:59 AM
So, now even the pro-king supporters accepted Democracy is the best system. this clearly means....Gyane out............. |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 12:01 PM
and here a century is completed......CHEEEEEEEEEERS............... WITH the majority in the support of the democracy...not gyanecracy aka autocracy............ |
| jaya_nepal | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 12:02 PM
I dont think its something like, Kings supporters also support Democracy. Its just we all Nepali need a break in curroption, economic collapse and everything that just ruined out nation. jaya_nepal..!!! |
| jaya_nepal | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 12:05 PM
Cheers for Democracy, but what good this democracy did to us..?? Left us with a civil war, political instability, economic collapse, rampant curroption. If that is true Democracy then yeah CHEERS for DEMOCRACY. jaya_nepal..!!! |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 12:08 PM
hey jaya_nepal!!!! do you know what is your problem???? you only see the negative aspects, and completely ignore positive sides................. now you have listed some of the negative one,,try to write some positive ones and one your nick name useful............... jaya desh!! ( minus jaya naresh) |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 12:09 PM
Biswo, I wasn't going to reply to your nonsense, but there are things that I need to clarify because you amde a huge factual error: I am not in any governmnet scholarship in China, so i don't have those extra responsibilities you outlined. And oh-the-learned one, keep your suggestions on what i should learn to yourself- why don't you learn how to debate and defend your thesis in a civil manner? This will at least help you defend yiour thesis when the time comes. Niksnpl: You need to learn to read. |
| jaya_nepal | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 12:13 PM
Hey.. yeah may be I always tend to look on the negative side. Positive aspects were definitely good, many airports were developed, road connection, telecommunication and uncountable other stuff. Definitely democracy was good in its last decade. But it could have been much better than what it was. Only by mere discussions here and there, doesnt count, what counts is action. No matter if democracy was good or bad or whatever, my only arguement, we gotta do something to make Nepal, the best. Thats the only concern I have. jaya_nepal..!!! |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 12:16 PM
Big Brother agrees to turn a blind eye in Singapore City state decides it is time to open up its tightly controlled society John Aglionby in Singapore Saturday April 17, 2004 The Guardian Singapore, a byword for big-brother authoritarianism, is to shake off its repressed image by adopting new measures to free up the lives of its citizens. The city state has accepted 60 of the 74 steps that a special committee recommended last year to open up the tightly-controlled society and broaden people's horizons, local media reported yesterday. But many of the "Remaking Singapore" measures will result in government agencies still dominating people's lives and some are little more than cosmetic, particularly with regard to the arts and freedom of expression. Schools and colleges will have more flexibility in the students they accept, and rules for the registration of new societies and associations will be relaxed. Buskers will no longer have to give their proceeds to charity, although they will still have to audition, and academics will be encouraged to participate in public policy debates. But proposals to loosen public entertainment licensing regulations and establish a "free arts zone" where rules can be relaxed to facilitate free expression were rejected. The minister for national development and head of the Remaking Singapore committee, Vivian Balakrishnan, was quoted in the Straits Times newspaper as saying the changes and shifts were "significant" but "at a pace [at] which we can carry the vast majority of Singaporeans". The government's move comes amid continued recession and the luring away of companies by other countries in the region. "In the future, the government will try to confine itself to specifying a negative list of undesirable, anti-social or illegal activities," Mr Balakrishnan told the Guardian. "Everything else will be fair game." Some tangible changes have been introduced. Homosexuals are now welcome in the civil service; bar patrons can dance on table tops; nightclubs in certain areas can open 24 hours; the Rocky Horror Picture Show has had its first showing and the hit TV show Sex and the City and Cosmopolitan magazine will soon be available. New economic pillars beyond the traditional hi-tech manufacturing and financial services are being built in the biotech, education and healthcare sectors. This is being done partly by attracting world-famous names to the island republic through larger investment budgets than are available elsewhere. One of the foreign stars is Alan Colman, the Scottish scientist who cloned Dolly the sheep and is now undertaking stem cell research in an attempt to cure diabetes. He turned down offers in Britain and the US in favour of Singapore. "What I'm benefiting from is an experiment to see if they can change the mindset of the intelligentsia, the people coming through the universities, to make them more innovative," he said. "Whether it's in my area or others, they're just trying to change people because they recognise it is for their future success." In many other respects Singapore is still "the fine city", so called because people can be prosecuted for trifling offences such as chewing the wrong sort of gum, jaywalking and not flushing the toilet. Sinapan Samydorai of the Think Centre, a mainly internet-based political forum, says the government is still micromanaging despite what it says. "They need to differentiate between national issues and local issues," he said. "Imagine if the president of the United States was pronouncing on how to flush the toilet." |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 12:16 PM
hey i_F...............don't point your finger towards me............don't misuse the democracy....although you support gyanecracy.....this is the one of the quality of democracy..........not like gyanecracy.. |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 12:20 PM
Good copy,paste!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 12:26 PM
Singapore, a byword for big-brother authoritarianism, is to shake off its repressed image by adopting new measures to free up the lives of its citizens. The city state has accepted 60 of the 74 steps that a special committee recommended last year to open up the tightly-controlled society and broaden people's horizons, local media reported yesterday. This should tell all those people who are for a sudden transition in nepal, that Singapore which is more developed than Nepal is embarking on full democratization after achieving its economic and other development goals made possible by Lee Kuan Yu's 30 years of mild authoritarian rule. |
| Prem_dai | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 12:41 PM
Democracy will never work for Nepal. whether nepal is rich or poor. We will rot one way or another. |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 12:51 PM
LA ARKO GYANE KO CHAMCHHA AAYO ..........WELCOME TO SAJHA....NEW GYANE KO CHAMCHHA... |
| Newtien | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 02:07 PM
Dog fight. The problem is 'we the people of nepal' and not democracy(system). Each and every one has to change to fit into the system. The question is - can we follow any system? The way this thread has been handled(replacing the usernames with the names of our Netas would help here), reflects how Nepal has been handled in the last decade. There are some implicit discussion ethics. We should always appreciate a person making a sincere effort to express his/her views . Even if we disagree on some or all points. To reply to ones post with a one liner, calling it ludicrous is totally uncalled for. I think that is what started this fight and rendered this thread meaningless. Arent the maoist the main problem at hand? Can we come up with different ideas of how we could eradicate this problem? India solved the problem of Khalistan by targeting the leaders. Wonder if a similar approach would help our case...... |
| prem_dai | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 02:11 PM
Niksnpl, what makes you think so? You thinking is negative, do you know that. Problem withyou is that whoever doesn't agree with you seems to be Gynaeko chamcha. There is something wrong with your brain wiring... believe it man. |
| jivman | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 03:10 PM
peopa like nikspl think democracy is easy. The last 15 yrs have brogut everything to knee jerk. They have not yet realized that no system will advance as long as we have as-shole leaders. I guess 15 yrs is not enough for them. May be we need to send them to Rowanda or somewhere like that to see how another 15 yrs of degradation will make life a living hell. Girja and CO got their chance. Now it is time for them to retire. If CEO cannot bring the company book out of red, then he has to go. He got to be fired. Same goes to anyone who runs the gov't. I think we all have to be patience with King G for at least few more years to see what difference he can makeLets not forget. We all knows he is smart and thats what we need. I dont think we have any leaders to trust right now. Provided we got another brilliant leader,do you think Girja and Makune will let him run the govt peacefully. No way, they will do anything to pull him out of Singha durbar. We will again see the same quandry repeating itself. I am tired of all these bastard games. I want to see some changes. If that means waiting few more yrs with king, that is fine with me. What do I gotta lose. I got a freedom to express, I got a freedom to do anything. As long as country is going forward, that is fine with me. Tell me one industry that has flourised in Nepal in the last 15 yrs. they have destroyed whatever we had going from before. jai nepal |
| Biswo | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 09:08 PM
>I am not in any governmnet scholarship >in China, so i don't have those extra > responsibilities you outlined. Guess, I didn't figure that out. So, you were not selected in an open competition like a lot others. My mistake. Even the culture seats are counted towards government scholarship, for your information. And yes, for culture seats, someone has to curry favor with the Chinese embassy. And yea, if you are paying on your own, then , I agree I made a factual error. But I don't think so. |
| Prem Charo | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 10:22 PM
Biswo, Come on man !! you are getting too personal. This is the cheapest bash I ever seen in Sajha. Isoleted Freak is one of the fair analyst in Sajha. Get a life dude !! Prem charo :) |
| Biswo | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 10:29 PM
PC, No. Nothing is personal here. Since he said I was 'wrong', I just asked how I was wrong. If I actually made factual error like he claimed, then I have a right to know what the truth is. Obviously, if you think Isolated Freak is the best analyst, it should also concern you that he provides his assertions with the supporting facts. As for getting a life, rest assured that I am having wonderful time. |
| Prem Charo | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 11:09 PM
Biswo, >>if you think Isolated Freak is the best analyst, .... How could you even put a conditional statement like this to Isolated Freak, who is one of the best critic in Sajha. He's such a mervelous, intelligent, bright scholar. It just that you cannot tackle with him and counterattack his points, so out of your frustration, you tried to attack him personally. Shame on you, Biswo! There is no doubt that he speaks points -- out of his pragmatic experience in Nepal. He's educated and he's lived in Nepal --unlike you. I suppose you are learner educated person... but who cares about your education when you cannot endow any practical fitness of democracy in Nepal, rather than blabering basic principle of democracy. WHo cares how democracy workied in India or Romania... Who cares how Chauchesku in Romanai got overthrown and killed... It's the topics of "WILL DEMOCRACY WORK IN NEPAL?" or not... Come down to earth.. do you know the meaning of "down to earth." If you cannot, just opt out... Prem Charo Hawaii |
| prem_dai | Posted
on 17-Apr-04 11:53 PM
Biswo and Nisknpl needs Lauro in the arse.. then their eyes will open up to the truth. |
| nispaksha | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 12:44 AM
Joke of the day: PC declares: "How could you even put a conditional statement like this to Isolated Freak, who is one of the best critic in Sajha. He's such a mervelous, intelligent, bright scholar" Nispaksha ---------------------------------------- |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 01:00 AM
IF YOU WANT TO SEE THE TRUTH, Come to Nepal.......... Watch the protests that are going day by day. And one information, now this protest isn't the protest only by the 5 political parties and NC(D) but all the people, journalists, human right activist, and others are supporting it and taking part actively against this so called Gyanecracy. They are the same people who objected those parties, their govt. when they were doing wrong........For those Gyane chamchha's, I advice them to see the example of Georgia... and answer to one more question.. what did nepal gain in this last 15 years... why are you forgetting yourself. Due to that democracy, you are in this state that you can support Gyane....whether you accept it or not, that is the truth...Other thing, you haven't seen the information freedom in the country...It will be long list, if you are ready to accept them. and i think that this prem charo and prem dai are the same person who just want to increase the quantity.....heheh..what a jhoor idea????but quality is quality, you can put 10 other names,,but once again quality is quality.... and i appreciate Bishwo, that he is fighting alone with all these gyane chamchas.. keep it on......:)))......... no comments to gyane chamchhas.....bishwo alone is enough for you...... |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 06:28 AM
Biswo, There you go again with your assumptions. I don't have to clarify things to you, but remember: there's no governmnet scholarship for Humaniities students in China from Nepal. And no, I am not on any cultural seat of the embassy either because there's no cultural seat at the Chinese Embassy in Nepal for Humanities students. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 06:43 AM
And as for how I am here, its none of your cocnern. If it bugs you, then good luck! And like PremCharo said, keep it to what's being discussed. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 06:49 AM
Nepali Kanchi, I made an error on my reply to you, so please allow me to correct that: What is a full democracy? The full democracy by western standards is the rule of law where citizens have human rights and freedom and all that. However, the west which promotes this model of democracy in the third world countries like Nepal, itself doesn't have this perfect model. I agree with you: Much can be debated about the American "lobby" model democracy and the British democracy, but you have to understand one thing: With Globalziation and Free Market, everything is corporatized (corporation+ ized). And only a handful of people like Ruport Murdoch decide what we should know and not know, when/how we should know and whom should we choose as our leaders . This is it. So, the Perfect model is yet to be achieved, but some countries are near perfection. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 07:50 AM
And Prem Charo, thanks for your words, but I am not all what you wrote- still a long way to go, dude. And of course, I have my biases too as a result of my training, experience and the envioronmnet that I grew up in and some say, I am very selective when it comes to making friends, movies, music and books:-) So, don't think of me someone who is a saintly unbiased scholar. I am just a student, learning to defend my points in a way that makes sense to all those who think. And I am not that experienced either. But I am glad and often times quite proud of waht I have achieved in the last 26 years. When I eneter discussions in classrooms or with friends in my school or in Sajha, Its not that I want to change my opponent's ' viewpoint, because its impossible. Sometimes, you have hard time even persuading your family members to think the way you do. And I don't expect anyone in Sajha or outside Sajha to change his/her POV just reading/listening to what I write/say. What I want is: instead of getting personal and trying to investigate the nitty-griity of otehrs' life, friendship and even the college funding', one should discuss the dieas in a way that makes people think, and think hard. With some, you know they are not worthy of listening to or reading their nonsense (these you can dismiss outright because they will have nothing new to say and its just a sheer waste of time to discuss with them) unless you are fond of listening to Suga Ratai. The best thing to do is, say/express what is that you feel about certain issues, then wait for the others who you think of worthy of listening to (and you find these people if you hang out in Sajha for long) to point out the weaknesses in your theories/views- constructive criticism, sort of. Then you think over those and build your theories/views based on those points, without necessarily completely abandoning your original views and without being personal by investigating one's geneology and DNA/RNA samples. For example, I have had huge disagreements with Arnico and Ashu on many issues. But that didn't/doesn't barr me from meeting them for some coffee or beer in Kathmandu. Poonte and I disagree but that hasn't made us go examine each other's geneology chart and all that. Suva Chintak and I agree on many things, but there are many disagreements especially w hen it comes to dsicussing Iraq. However, this hasn't affected our friendship at all. Actually, I like discussing with some of the smart people here in Sajha who just rip apart my posts and say, OK, this is what you think, and this is what I think. If you can prove me wrong, I will gladly acept it, and if I prove you wrong with my points, then you accept it. And in the end, its your choice- sometimes I say, OK, you have made me think from a new angle, and thanks for that. Sometimes, no matter how good points others post, something just doesn't work out well and you just say, let's agree to disagree. The ebst thing is not to persuade others to think like you and follow the Bhajan mandali, the best thing to do is, say, OK, because of these points I disagree and if you want to discuss, then discuss on these specific points. If you are lucky, you'll end up learning a lot and no matter waht you end up making new friends and come to realize that there exist multiple viewpoints in the world.. and even your view is not uncontradicatable! Believe it or not, there are debators like that in Sajha for whom personal issues is just not of importance when it comes to dsicussing ideas in a pure civil way. And all this is called learning, and this is how I was trained in my home, by my friends and in a small college in the US. And I guess that its hwo many undergraduate students of Humanities/Social Sciences in US learn to discuss and defend their points. Graduate school is just an extension of this process. |
| prem_dai | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 09:47 AM
niksnpl , why are you so adamant? Have you ever thought of going under some kind of treatment for your brain? |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 10:00 AM
chu chu bichara prem_dai!! but anyway, keep it up hai.......... but i should thank you..hehe......treatment ko kehi upaya pani ta hola ni......... about me being adamant>> i can also say that why are you say adamant as a gyane chamchha.......oooooops...i think gyane has brainwashed you.........;-) |
| Prem Charo | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 10:02 AM
* Niksnpl, As you wrote "i think that this prem charo and prem dai are the same person" If you are thinking similar name means the same person to you. That's not true. Let me tell you the truth, I do have another name in Sajha, and I rarely post with that name. If you can, you can catch me, But I am not Prem dai. I don't believe in quantity eather. Cause being couple of small business owner, I do have to care about quality than quantity. I come to Sajha for fun. In the same time, I am meeting new friends too. So chill dude !!! Prem Charo :) Hawaii |
| jivman | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 10:20 AM
Nikspl: You are right. In democracy we got freedom to talk. Is that what democracy is all about. Dude, you gotta talk the talk and walk the walk. Because we cant, we are in shit hole. In fact thats all we do. talk talk talk. If thats all you do, You are FIRED. You are right again that 15 yrs of miserable failure, you are pushing your hard luck once again. By the way, I lost a lot in those yrs. May be you gaineda lot with your connection. Talk about being in Nepal, actually I worked for 7 years during 90s in handicraft factory. So I know what it feels like. You need reality check more than me. Ya the list is long such as failed industries, RNAC, Mao, insecurity, no jobs, and what else I forgot. Most importantlylost of peace of mind. Who does not cherish democracy. Not with same failed netas. Do you think Girja will give NC post to other 2nd gen leaders other than his own family members. Talk about democracy in that. What else we got? Oh yeah, split in mls, nc, rpp, etc. This is all due to mere personal greed and nothing else in the name of peoples achievement. To sum up, the problem is same. just talk and nothing else. talk talk talk. Talk is cheap. Your traits are nothing different. |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 10:30 AM
hello mr jivman!! u r right that i came in sajha to talk... heheheh.......that is fun......i can fight with brothas all over the world.....:)))) and why are u blaiming democracy for failed netas........... that is the misery............ and one more thing:: in democrady we have also other freedoms......do you remember how much people were afraid with police in panchayat times.....coz govt. kept people dominated?? you can't speak for yourself....and i dont' think that there were lots of jobs in panchayat too.......... they are responsible for taking country back 50 years....... that's all for now. new comments are welcomed.in sajha... cheers.. |
| jivman | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 10:38 AM
nikspl: Thanks. good to be in sajha where we can explore everything. 2nd gen leaders are needed. unless there is, there is no hope. By the way, I dont mean we come in sajha.com to talk. I mean in everyday of our life, all we do is just talk and fool soja jantas in nepal by netas. I aint gonna go for that shit. If leaders wanna lead, they gotta show it. Then peopa will follow. Got one...None. O believe me there were tons of jobs back then. And pls add peace of mind for majority of ordinary people who go along daily just doing their job to supoort their family. We got that none now. 50 yrs back, pls. Lets compare with what we got now in our own life time. |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 10:52 AM
nice point that 2nd generation leader are needed................. but the question is who will be 2nd generation leader??????????? |
| Biswo | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 12:53 PM
Prem Charo: I know how educated you are, how analytical you are. So, take your shame for yourself. You are probably the first person in sajha who heaped shame on others just because they criticize others. Now let me clear you about your 'points': i) I went to personal to IF. Fact: IF started going personal. His pointed reference to Texan PhD and then sc's reference back to me as 'bhusiya' was not personal? Look, you are the prejudiced one. You don't even have a capacity to read thoroughly. All I asked IF was if he says I was wrong, then what is the right. Like always, I am probably right about how he is studying in China. You know what, now he says he doesn't want to provide me that information. How can he? ii) IF stayed more in Nepal than me. Fact: Hardly any such difference. I had my undergraduate in China, and then I went back to Nepal. Stayed for sometime there before coming to USA. He spent quite a lot of time in USA doing his undergraduate. Spent time in USA later looking for job. Went to China for job. Then spent some times in Nepal, and then now in China. [all information gathered by sajha.] So, I don't see any difference.In fact, I see him desperate not to live in Nepal. So, prem charo, since I know your views regarding autocracy, I am not surprised that you find IF such a great talent. You are free to consider IF even this generation's greatest thinker. It will only shows us your ability to think and analyze, and it doesn't concern me. Finally, I don't want you to be here only cursing people. If you are so fond of cursing people, good luck to you. Take shame for yourself. |
| Nepe | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 02:24 PM
To be fair, I think the question raised by royalist posters in this thread about the incompetent political leadership of parties during entire last decade has not been answered or elaborated fully by pro-democracy posters yet (The proposal of second generation leadership needs to be elaborated). Here is an attempt from my side to answer this tough question. For now, I am copying and pasting one of my old postings. However, I am ready to continue the debate like in the old thread. ---------------------------------------------------- - http://www.sajha.com/archives/openthread.cfm?threadid=11327&dsn=sajhaarchive2003 Kalekrishna ji, Thank you for your kind word and a very important question you raised- 'do we have able leaders to run the republicanism ? First, let me clarify about that remark on 'Assamese'. It was not my remark. I was referring to what IF has been telling in this forum to belittle and dismiss the Jana Andolan 1990. I certainly welcome, acknowledge and appreciate the contribution made by NR Nepalese as well as democracies all over the world to overpower the autocratic monarchy in 1990. Now to your question. While I acknowledge that this is a valid question and, more importantly, believe that the success of the republicanism andolan will heavily depend on the satisfying answer to this question, allow me to point to a faulty notion on which this question is standing. This question assumes, as far as I can see, democracy as some job that requires PRE-TRAINED leaders and the people. Let me add that I have been amused to see that a large number of sajhaites subscribe to this notion and, therefore, have skepticism about the republicanism in Nepal. My answer is- A real democracy (what we have in Nepal is a semi-democracy!) does not require PRE-TRAINED leaders and the people. Democracy itself is a training as well as a job. Democracy is like a swimming, you have to be in the water to learn it and do it. Now, what about the hopeless leaders that our decade long experiment with 'democracy' produced ? Does it not have any bearing with what we can expect in the republicanism ? No, not much. First of all, let's keep in mind that our current 'democracy' is a corrupted version of democracy. It's basis is the national denial about the actual power of the monarchy. Let me add a remark which I will shortly elaborate in my reply to Noname ji, that Noname ji has elaborated excellently the actual power of the monarchy in his brilliant posting. So these UNSPOKEN power of the monarchy has actually neutralized the potency of democracy in Nepal. A superficial observation is of not much help, but if one does a deep analysis, he/she will be able to see that the current crop of IMPOTENT leaders is the end result of the IMPOTENCY of the 'democracy' caused by the UNSPOKEN power of the monarchy. It could also be of a general interest to Sajhaites that many Sajha hastis view this UNSPOKEN power of the monarchy as a LEGITIMACY of the Monarchy in our democracy rather than seeing how it has undermined the democracy itself. Our current crop of the leaders are khattam, they horribly lack the sense of responsibility, accountability and integrity. But the question is why ? Why are they what they are ? What is the reason of their moral degradation among other things ? Is it because of some weird coincidence that all of them happened to have the same karma written by bhawi on their chhaithi or determined by the movement of the graha naxetra ? (Trikal ji, could you find janma kundali of our neta haru and find out what they are fated to do ?) Or it has earthly environment of Nepal's polity responsible for it ? As I said before, I assert that an in-depth analysis will show that our impotent leaders are the end product of the impotent political system. In several threads in the past when I had discussion on this subject with Biswo ji and Paschim, I have maintained this position. While they along with other hastis like Village Voice and Arnico were of the opinion that we have a sufficiently good system, so the blame for the failure goes to the leaders, not the system. What is lacked here is, may I dare say, a scientific approach to analyze the human behaviors. Our friends want to treat the spoilt leaders like an ignorant father will beat his spoilt son. It's time to be an educated father, understand what led the kid to be so and apply psychologically sensible remedies to help him become a reasonable kid. I would like to quote an analogy I gave to Paschim to explain why the current monarchy won't allow good leaders to emerge: |
| Nepe | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 02:25 PM
"....we ALREADY tried that [making parliamentary force stronger over time using the existing constitutional means]. For more than a decade. It did not work. It failed. The king became progressively stronger and we (parties) became corrupt. Our parties became corrupt for the very similar reason a potentially good man goes to prostitutes after his beloved wife is lured and taken away by a filthy rich man. Let's give the man his wife and her love. And see how he emerge as a good man we can be proud of. Let's learn from 12 wasted years of our beloved country." I would admit here that the operational mechanism of the monarchy in inhibiting a good public leadership to emerge is subtler than an abduction of other's wife can depict. However, the overall scenario is the same. In view of Noname ji's elaborate examination of the total power of the monarchy, which I had tried to capture by the term para-constitutional power in my earlier postings, and to acknowledge how the majority of our leaders should have consciously or sub-consciously accepted that as a legitimate position of the monarchy, I would revise the analogy for the relationship between the monarchy and the political leaders as follows, We could only have dwarf leaders all these years of the compromised democracy for the same reason crops would not grow well under the shade of a big tree. It is not that the quality pool of we Nepali is shallow. Have you not seen any Nepali doing best in what they are doing ? Have you not seen any Nepali who can be potentially a good leader. Forgive my optimism, but I have seen even in Sajha some good people who can be amazingly good leaders provided they are given a good system to work in. I have brought up BBC ko Rabindra Mishra's old appeal many times- Pratyosh Onta haru le rajniti kina nagarne ? The answer is simple. In order not to be tainted in history as serving the royal family and pretending they are serving the people. ----------------------------- |
| jaya_nepal | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 02:31 PM
Niksnpl.. If you say that the Panchayat took Nepal 50 years back, I would argue your point saying that leaders, NOT DEMOCRACY, took us to primitive ages. What is left in Nepal. Whatever we had, Maoists Insurgency - created by the leaders, destroyed everything. Can you imagine how long is it gonna take to come back where we were before the start of the Maoist Insuregncy? Your another point of 2nd generation, democratic leaders have paved a very bad path of the future leaders. In their definition leader is the one who can initiate a protests and demonstartions and disrupt the daily life. And yes, that is what their students wings have been doing. So those are the 2nd generation leaders. If you want a true democratic Nepal, you need ban these political parties and their affiliated students wings but with the priviledge of democratic rights given to a nation's citizen. Again, opposition does not mean disruption of daily life. jaya_nepal..!!! |
| prem_dai | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 02:42 PM
niksnpl: Tell me one point that convince you that I am Gyane's chhamcha. Let's see how stupid you are!!! |
| Badmash | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 03:31 PM
I know this thread has come a long and winding road, but let me jump right to the question, “Will democracy work in Nepal? My guess is it won’t. And the reason democracy won’t work in Nepal is because people don’t want democracy. Majority of the Nepali Citizen for the past 15 years have clearly demonstrated that they don’t want democracy and want out of it. Nepalese are better off autocratic system than democracy and that should be fulfilled as per the will of the majority of the Nepalese people, except for may be 5 people who think otherwise, and may be 2 of them are right here in sajha. The root cause of all the violence and disruption in Nepal is the result of these 5 people brainwashing the students and alike against the will of the Nepalese people and infiltrating the sojha sajha law abiding Nepalese people’s territory and affecting their well being, not to mention the provocation of Maoists movement. I say we round em’ up and send em’ all to Nakku Jail, and let the general people decide what they want, without the influence of these obnoxious thugs. How much these thugs have hurt our country is astounding. One does not fight for democracy by keeping a kid from going to school and disrupting the normal life of the very people they want to help achieve democracy. Democracy to me- is to be able to live your life without the influence of any kind, political or otherwise. After the 1990 movement, we gave up that very right (or should I say it was taken away) and that was the beginning of all hell breaking loose. We have three powerful forces pounding the country towards its destruction and it won’t be long before it will wipe out its existence. Something has to be done and done immediately. Trying to get these three forces work together will simply won’t work, given their unwillingness to compromise we have witnessed for this many years. There has to be one force, only one force, and a powerful one. Be it the murderer Maoists, the gangster congresies and commies, or the Gyanendracracy as someone suggested above. But it has to be one autocratic government which has a strong will towards the welfare of the country. We have proven, yes you, me, and the others alike, time and again, that we simply can’t work together in harmony. We all wanted it all during the democratic era, hence this mess, now its time we give some back. And amidst this chaos, those who still argue and defend congress and commies, I have one advice for you, “if you are in a hole, stop digging”. Badmash, 'Politics is not my bread and butter' |
| jivman | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 03:55 PM
What I find so disturbing about people like Nikspl is that they throw themselves blindly in the name of democracy. They dont realize that democracy in order to reach its destination needs to be nurtured all along the way. In fact people like Nikspl are practising democratic undemocratically. You cannot get free ride in the name of democracy. Democracy does not grow in tree. Cautious approach with check and balance and right timing is what we need to order to prosper and bring benefits to all Nepali. |
| Zen_Kundan | Posted
on 18-Apr-04 10:27 PM
God bless you all. You wanna know why democracy doesen't work in nepal?? Just in talking about democracy, here in this thread I saw pple are bashing each other and criticizing strongly in a hostile manner. Everybody can have different opinions and presuppositions about parties, is there any wrong with it? Why cann't we all Nepalis ventilate our postulate in pacifism and tranquilism ?? One who has mastery of through experience or study doesen't express their theorem this way. Let's start fair democracy exercise here in Sajha. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 06:44 AM
Biswo, All that you said about me is wrong. First of all, you have no rights whatsoever to know about my personal life. But, still I provided you with honest answer that you can verify with any authority anywhere in China or Nepal. What I do outside Sajha is my own business. Its nothing for you to know. You talk about me being Personal by saying a Texan PhD, well, you have been in the past referred to me being in Beijing more than often. I have never asked you about yoiur job or even what you study or how someone like yoiu got into Rice or whoever is paying for your education. These do not cocnern me nor I stay up all night thinking about these questions which are none of my concern. " Like always, I am probably right about how he is studying in China. You know what, now he says he doesn't want to provide me that information. How can he?" How can't I? Is it you who is funding my education? Am I responsible to you? Who are you? You are not anyone who has RIGHTS to know everything about me the same way I have no rights nor intentions to KNOW about you. No, like always, you are wrong, and very wrong. Also you are wrong to say me desperate to leave Nepal? No. Actually, I am one of the few Nepalis educated outside since my highschool days, who wants to enter the HMG service. You can ask any Sajha visitor espicially Ashu regarding me. I lived and worked in Nepal for almost 2 years, and unlike you, I got to meet and work with all those who shaped the modern Nepal and its policies as bureacucrats and diplomats. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 07:37 AM
you have been in the past referred to me = you have in the past |
| RBaral | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 07:52 AM
Circumlocution - that is what it has been most of the part. Down to earth -- Will democracy work in Nepal? I think it will. Before making elaborations, I would like to ponder upon the following two questions- 1. If Democracy would not work in Nepal, why on earth did King Mahendra had to bring Panchayati Prajatantra (Panchayati Democracy)? 2. Why is Gyanendra so much dedicated to hold elections? Please enlighten on these two specifics -- an unequivocal request to those who are advocating otherwise. A brief acceptance will do, with an immpense potential to lead to a graceful exit. Take my word! Just a small boomerang, it is! Astu |
| Biswo | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 08:12 AM
IF, The reason I wanted you to provide me the right answer was because you said I was wrong. It is sad that you can't provide what the RIGHT answer was. The reason that you gave me that somehow humanities don't get Chinese scholarship is wrong. Do you know Mr Malla who was studying political science in Peking University some years ago? Yes, he was in cultural seat. And the reason why I am pressing you about cultural seat is this: cultural seat is a corruption. Bam Dev Gautam was badly hammerred in press when he was a minister because he sent his son in cultural seat to China. You can't say these leaders corrupt while doing the same thing for yourself. And, yea, so you WORKED WITH " all those who shaped the modern Nepal and its policies as bureacucrats and diplomats. " ALL those people? Guess what? I don't believe your stuff. You worked with ALL people who shaped Nepal's policy? You worked with ALL of them? So, there is not a single person who you didn't work with. What , as what? I know how educated you are. I know how much scientific analysis you can do. And, Most of all, I know how true you speak. |
| MillionDollars | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 08:26 AM
Yah.. Zen is right.. Y'all cannot have a decent conversation without insulting each other. And yes, democracy will not work in Nepal. This is just my opinion and you are free to have your own. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 08:27 AM
OK Biswo, There you go again- You have no rights to know nor I have any obligation to tell you everything about me. If you want, you can find out yourslef by contacting w hoever you want to in China, Nepal or Sixya Mantralaya. It is sad that you can't provide what the RIGHT answer was. Biswo, again, you can't force me to reveal everything about me to you. By the way, a nice try...And what's sad? Today you ask me how I am in school. Tomowrrow you might ask em what i eat.. then some days later what I wear.. then somedays later when I sleep.. then somedays later what I saw in my dreams.. and there's no obligation for me to answer all your questions.S uffice to say, you are wrong, and if you want the right answer, do your own research since yous eem to be so concerned with me. "And, yea, so you WORKED WITH " all those who shaped the modern Nepal and its policies as bureacucrats and diplomats. " ALL those people? Guess what? I don't believe your stuff. You worked with ALL people who shaped Nepal's policy? You worked with ALL of them? So, there is not a single person who you didn't work with. What , as what? I know how educated you are. I know how much scientific analysis you can do. And, Most of all, I know how true you speak. " I said I worked with all those. Learn how to read. I didn't say with everyone. All those here mean people who were responsible in one way or the other. Not everyone. For example, i worked with XX.. who was instrumental in coming with certain policies. However, I didn't work with X who didn't do anything. Yes, I didn't get to work with those who were dead but yes, I did work with all those people still living who had a tremendous influence in shaping the modern Nepal's foreign and other policies. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 08:30 AM
living and who had a tremendous influence in shaping the modern Nepal's foreign and other policies. And I don'ta care whether you believe or not becaus eyou beliving or not beliving does not make any difference in my life- by the way, why are you so concerned about my personbal life.. Is it ebcause the people which are funding your education wants you to prepare my profile?- Gajjab Cha Ba! |
| Jayaa Shamvho !!!! | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 08:42 AM
What's goin in this thread? 
|
| Jayaa Shamvho !!!! | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 08:45 AM
here's another one 
|
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 08:52 AM
Not everyone= not every aiire-gaire-khate who entered the civil service or foreign service. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 08:56 AM
I know how educated you are. I know how much scientific analysis you can do. And, Most of all, I know how true you speak. And how edcuated are you? Come on- once you asked Suva Chintak to write artciles on his field.. then he asked you how much you have contributed to your field.. you brushed aside that question then. Now let me ask you: How do we know how educated are you? Come on, coming to sajha and showing off your GRE Vocab doesn't show how educated you are. How many pieces you have written on your field? Come on. oh educated one, tell us.. so that we all learn from your expert analysis. |
| yOuNgBlOoDz | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 09:26 AM
i was named gyane's chamcha........... n the supporter of panchayat!!!! though i don't have much of knowledge about nepal's politics... here r my two cents!!!((these are my personal opinion.. no one is obligated to believe it or follow .. m just expressing ..) well the question is --- democracy, will it work? Yes, it will but under certain circumstances. We need new faces to run the government. sum yuba neta -( wake up!!! girija or deuba or makune... they ain't yuba neta, like they claim to be in elections)... some new people, i would say some of you people who have posted up there would fit in my list of new faces.. secondly, looking at present situation esp. of maobadi and khaobadi, king is a necessity.. just coz of his fear we are still lingering.. without him.. we would fell flat in our face.. its never a one man who can lead country to progress, ruler n its people should go hand to hand if we are even thinking about the prosperity of country... but its not happening...instead people are out there protesting against him... which is the main reason ... why nepal is heading no where!! at the moment.. lets not even keep high expections... lets just hope for its peace n stability.. after we success there, lets think about freedom of speech, freedom of this n that... first wipe maoists frm the face of nepal.. No, why??? because of the type of politicians we have seen and are fed up of... one says what has king done?? how bout a question to those.. what has leaders done.. i do admire some of them who has contributed their efforts for the country.. but majority is curropted... its good to see all political parties united together and fighting to bring democracy for nepal... but till how long will they remain the way they are??? .. if i m not wrong, aren't these the same people who kept pulling each others leg.. forget about the opposition party, they ccan't even stand to see the person of their own party as a PM.. why do u think, every time one party is elected and never serves for 5 years??? every 6 months or a year.. there is another election.. "lov ko bhado kahile bharidaina".. Now i have got a question!!! should we fight with king to repeat the same 15 yrs we have seen, or should we unite, the king, the political leaders, and the people.. and fight to see nepal heading towards its prosperity?? coz unless we do so... m anticipating to discuss this same topic after next 15-20 yrs..n perhaps i ll be retrieving the this thread.. AFNO KHUTTA MA AFAI BACHANRO HANNE.......kaam nagarau.. yb |
| yOuNgBlOoDz | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 09:29 AM
exception=expectation |
| Biswo | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 09:33 AM
IF, >I said I worked with all those. Learn how to read. I didn't say with everyone. So, what is difference between all those and everyone? In any case, it is established that you can't reveal the source by which you are funding your study. I had given you three options: whether it was govt scholarship, cultural scholarship, or private funding. No detail needed. I didn't go to that question first: you said I made a factual error, so I am curious to know what error it was. You said there was no humanities scholarship, and I said I knew there was at least one. So many lies after lies you are producing. Yes, you worked with ALL those who shaped today's policy. At what capacity? At what level? I am just surprised by your pride in your false achievement. And yea, It just happens, IF, that I can proudly reveal my source of funding. I am currently the holder of one of the highest accolades given to any graduate student at Rice: The presidential fellowship.If I hadn't known how to read, I would have ended up in a difficult position of not being able to reveal how I am funding my study. Did I brush aside that question about my articles? I don't want to publicly write here, but give me your email address so that I can send them to you so that you can read what I have written in the past in my field. I may not have made a lot of contribution, but I have done what is definitely above average at my level. I hope you will be responsible in making claims in future. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 09:42 AM
I hope you will be responsible in making claims in future. And I hope you will be doing the same! |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 09:42 AM
Biswo, there you go again- How many times I have to tell you that I am not obliged in any way to tell you how I am here and its none of your concern. Good for you on being Presidential Scholarship and being above average in contributing. I don't believe in private communication from Sajha basis except those one I met and the ones I think are worthy of being friends with. So, no, I have no intention of getting an email from you. If you have contributed above avarage, why don't you post it here and let a dim witted like me and otehrs who do not fit in your high standrads learn from your above average contributions. Look how you yourself make a line between public information and private information: "I don't want to publicly write here, but give me your email address so that I can send them to you so that you can read what I have written in the past in my field. I may not have made a lot of contribution, but I have done what is definitely above average at my level."- Wow! At what capacity? At what level? I am just surprised by your pride in your false achievement.- Read your own sentence and reasoning.. |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 09:54 AM
hey biswo!! isolated freak was advisor of gyanendra during that time when deuba govt was dissolved, also the parliament ( look before his comments, it will make this thing clear)............. so, gyane was so happy with him, that he sent him to china in so called scholarship so that this guy can sharpen his knowledge and gain some idea of chinese politics..he will be great advisor to gyane in future too.... amn't i right???? hahaheheheh truth is always bitter............... |
| Biswo | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 09:58 AM
>let a dim witted like me The reason I don't post my CV publicly is because I am against it. Got it? It is my principle. If you check one of my previous websites, you will know this. Thanks for finally acknowledging you are a dimwit. I never had any doubt though. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 10:01 AM
The reason I don't post my CV publicly is because I am against it. Got it? It is my principle. If you check one of my previous websites, you will know this. Well, if yoiu don't publish yoiur website publicly how a dimwit is getting to learn? If you are against postuing your web site and resume in public, then why on earth you want others to do that? Isn't it called having double standrads? And it doesn't matter what you think of me. As always, I have no doubt that you are even more dimwit than me. |
| Biswo | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 10:08 AM
>then why on earth you want others to do that? Isn't it called having double standrads? No. Because I haven't asked your resume. I can probably guess how it looks like. All I wanted to know was why I was wrong since you so grandly proclaimed I made 'factual error', Mr self-confessed dimwit. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 10:14 AM
No. Because I haven't asked your resume. I can probably guess how it looks like. All I wanted to know was why I was wrong since you so grandly proclaimed I made 'factual error', Mr self-confessed dimwit. No, you don't know how my resume looks like. And yes, you self-prtoclaimed intelligent, its youw ho started asking personal questions at first, then moved it to this level. Let me tell you again, I said your assumption was wrong, and I stand by it.. If you want, verify with whoever you want to in China or in Nepal. You have no rights to know everything about me nor I have any obligatoion to tell you everything baout me. You are neither my bau patiko kaka, nor aama pattiko mama.. There you go again, self proclaimed contributor of above average articles Mr Intellectual of sajha! Now that you have started publicly claiming yoiurself intellegent and intellectual, why not post those links of your British journals and American journals links, so we might get to learn.. |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 10:20 AM
Anyways, this is getting boring. Good Luck with your above average pieces, Mr Intellegent-Intellectual. |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 10:20 AM
hey isolated freak!! why are you so jealous of biswo!!???????? that happens with chamchhas..typical habit of chamchhes.............. hahahahahahah.i can't stop laughing............... how can he be adivor of gyane???? 8th surprise of world.............. oh no.i got it!! coz stupids have stupid advisors......... hahahahahahah |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 10:22 AM
now isolated freak lost the battle ~~~!!! hahahah jahile pani antim ma bijaya saccho ko nai hunchha....... |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 10:23 AM
But, if you post your links, I promise that I will go over it and learn from your above average pieces.. and I guess the other dimwitted sajhaites are hoping for the same too.But even if you don't post those links, unlike you, I won't pressure you or go on making further assumptions like you do. If I have to, I will find out about those myself because unlike you I have no interest in knowing peoople's persnal lives. |
| Prem Charo | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 10:41 AM
Above written: "Now isolated freak lost the battle ~~~!!!" |||||||????? Isolated Freak, That's good to not mess with the people who think Sajha is a battle field, it supposed to be a exercise of the intellectual opinion. It is not a competition, contest or match. How one can loose and other win ?? I remeber one saying, "IF DOG BITES YOU, YOU DON'T GO BACK AND BITE THE DOG". Antibashing charo :) Prem charo |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 10:44 AM
Prem Charo, Rest assured, I won't be. My apologies to all who were discusing the topic of this thread. It just drifted to kata-kata. Prey continue with the topic, and I will be contributing my commenyts on the topic, whenever I can. |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 10:45 AM
Biswo Nath Poudel (Graduate Student) Economics Janus Project: Working On Climate Change in Nepal is this the same biswo???????? i am 90% sure.................. http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~cses/activities/experiences.html |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 10:50 AM
oh these fools don't know that intellectual battle is the highest level battle.... hahaha |
| sajhaCOP | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 10:51 AM
OMG, WHAT DID PREMCHARO EAT TODAY? SOME ICE COLD HAWAIIAN STRAWBERRIES? HE IS SINGING A DIFFERENT TUNE TODAY. AND HE IS VERY WELCOME. I HOPE HE WILL REMAIN THAT 'ANTIBASHING' FOREVER IN SAJHA. OTHERWISE, HE HAD ALMOST PROVED THAT HE WAS AN EGGPLANT ON THE PLATE. HE MADE ME GLAD. I WILL VOTE FOR HIM AS A SAJHA PERSON OF THE YEAR IF HE STAY 'ANTIBASHER' FROM NOW ON. HAHAHA! SHARE WHAT YOU EAT TO SOME OTHER PEOPLE TOO, INCLUDING ME. SAJHACOP |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 10:56 AM
WOW GREAT IDEA!! sajhaCOP!!!!!!!!!!! gyane is person of year in Nepal and his chamchha is Person of year in sajha... i think IF is sad coz he thought he should have got it!! i will start a new thread!!!! who is gyane chamchha of the year in sajha.......??????????? |
| sajhaCOP | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 11:00 AM
NIKSNPL, I WAS TALKING ABOUT PREM CHARO. I DIDN'T MENTION ISOLATED FREAKS NAME ANYWHERE, DID I? ABOUT COMING UP WITH NEW THREAD, IT'S UP TO YOU. HAHAHA |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 11:03 AM
HAVE FUN.........SAJHACOP |
| Garibjanata | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 12:42 PM
To Both Isolated Freak and Biswo, The childish way you guys are bashing each other, here, doesn't show both you, IF and Biswo, in good light. Please do not demean yourself further by getting into this ' I am superior than thou' fight . |
| Prem Charo | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 08:57 PM
Will democracy work in Nepal ??? Any fair analysis ?? PC :) Hawaii |
| BaDbOb | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 10:04 PM
Democracy will never work in Nepal. Even a simple discussion is pulled down to personal argument and bashings, what about others?democracy can't be digested by nepalis. Proven in past, happening today and forecasted for future. Jai Nepal |
| kreep | Posted
on 19-Apr-04 10:04 PM
niksnpl ... giddha ko chamchaaa |
| Lokman | Posted
on 20-Apr-04 12:01 AM
Ideally, yes, democracy is a good thing (or so we have been led to believe), but what's the point when there seems to be plenty of flaws in it as is the case in Nepal? Maybe, it's a good thing, but if the situation on the ground is anything to go by, you cannot deny the fact that we are a lot worse off now. Bandhs have become so frequent, it defies logic and reasoning. It's almost like our lives have been held hostage by these group of thugs who don't give a shit about the sufferings of the common men. Why won't these thugs let us get on with our lives. We already have enough in our plates, we don't need their shit. Gone are the days when we could literally go anywhere at anytime, the situation today is so bad, it takes a millitary planning to venture out of your house. Most colleges and schools remain closed most of the time. Many businesses have closed down because of bad business environment and those that are still in place are struggling to see the light of the next day. As if all this wan't enough, we have maoist porblem that does not seem to have any way out for the forseeable future. I could go on and on, but that would only make me mental. I think we need to be pragmatic and not be swayed by some ideology. We have seen it and we have first hand experience that democracy, the way it is now, isn't doing us any good. Instead it has thrown the country into a civil war. The countries that have rapidly prospered and developed in the last 20/30 years namely, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysia, did not have a full democracy. It is only recently that these countries have started to become more democratic. Oh nearly forgot, same goes for China too. So, as long as there is a high degree of economic and personal freedom, it does not really matter who the head of the government is, as long as he is pro-active, visionary and strongly focused on the economic development. Democracy is not about two parties taking turns to go to power. We have either a congress government, headed by Girija (I have lost the count of the number of times he has become a PM) and the same set of corrupt ministers or UML government headed by Makune. You know, the same set of people taking turns and at the same time ripping off national coffers and wantonly abusing state authority. Like they say, same old wine in a new bottle, or something to that effect. That's not it. Democracy is about developing the country and improving the living standard of the people, not taking turns to become a PM. If these thugs cared so much about the people, they would be doing aandolan to weed out corruption or an aadolan against the maoists. All they care about is the chair in the prime minister's office. These corrupt thugs should be punished and not rewarded with the prime misnister's chair for their wrongdoings. |
| Brook | Posted
on 20-Apr-04 03:41 AM
Rational thinking and expressing one’s opinion regarding the issue in question here is no prerogative of someone thoroughly trained in political science. After all, we should all agree that it’s the *people* voicing their opinions, exercising their rights, making their choices etc etc. that would constitute a “democratic” process. Now, given the fact that 55% of Nepalis over the age of 15 are illiterate and an even greater proportion of the population is likely to be oblivious of the historical and international experiences with different kinds of political processes, the meaning of the word “democracy” and whether it works or not needs to be sought in the Nepali context. Of course, “the Nepali context” also comprises of a lot of other social and cultural constructs but I trust fellow thinkers here to be better commentators on that. My own view on democracy or any other political order for that matter, however, is very simple and in fact extremely utilitarian. Any political dispensation cannot be an end in itself. Let’s not think about and assess “democracy” as something that’s an ultimate and inviolable goal that a society ought to strive for. But rather a medium offering a CHOICE- as per our own needs and preferences – among various alternatives with differing shades of central control to do what it’s meant to do: serve the people and create a judicious environment for equitable access to economic opportunity. |
| jivman | Posted
on 20-Apr-04 04:27 AM
We can explain democracy in 100 different ways. Bottom line: are we better off now with the leaders of last 15 years. Have our life improved in the last 15 years? Do any family feel secure enough now or before? Does future look promising enough for 24 million nepali? These are the basic questions. You dont need a rocket scientist to figure that out. Answer is No. We got screwed big time. Janta supporting the same netas again with disrupting everyone's life is stupid. We must be stupid. If we cannot distinguish Wrong from Right, if we cant make a COMMON SENSE, then we are not ready for democracy. |
| Hellbound | Posted
on 20-Apr-04 07:30 AM
Brook’s philosophical statements almost reminded me of the relationship between utilitarianism and democracy. Somebody (cannot remember) said: “Democracy is a sort of applied utilitarianism – unfortunately possessing utilitarianism’s weaknesses as well as its strengths – and institutional way of determining the happiness of the greatest number.” The utilitarianism necessitates that the morally right thing to do is the thing that produces the greatest net balance in the community of utility over disutility. But, those who are advocating for democracy at this point please look at some valid questions that Jivman posed here: “Have our life improved in the last 15 years? Do any family feel secure enough now or before? Does future look promising enough for 24 million Nepali?” I think this is very didactic thread that involves many intellectual personalities. Democracy itself is not a bad thing to re-apply in Nepal, but let me ask you this: did the practice of democracy for a decade help Nepal to become a better country? And, how can someone possibly “experiment” democracy for ten years in a country and make it like a hell to live? Now, these leaders are looking for what they've lost. I think democracy still exists in the country, but leaders lost it; why not? They must lose it. They want it back very bad, for the sake of their own personal achievement, not for the country.. not for the people of Nepal.. And Keep this in your head that "talking aganist democracy in Nepal doesn't make one royalist." |
| makar | Posted
on 20-Apr-04 09:14 AM
"talking aganist democracy in Nepal doesn't make one royalist." Very true. Greeks had a term for such people--IDIOTES. |
| coldfirestone | Posted
on 20-Apr-04 10:10 AM
No matter what you think; in favor or against the democracy; it the ultimate and best system for people. You may have your own view and experience but democracy is the common view and experience of people. Democracy is the only system where, people's rights are secured. About our 12 years of experience, Nowhere on earth democray has brought a drastic change in such a short time. Democracy is a process and it takes a long time to function fully. You can not simply say that democracy didn't work in Nepal. You may blame some leaders of political parties for bringing this situation. And you may be right! but you can not blame democracy for this situation! Look, how fast the nepali society is being transfermed! look how different is Nepal now than before 2046! Look and evaluate the sectors such as health, education and transportation. We have been able to achieve a great deal of progress in this sector even though they are not sufficient. So, i would like to support democracy and want it to be in action in Nepal. I don't like to talk about king! it is clear that he is going against democracy!! |
| prem_dai | Posted
on 21-Apr-04 04:55 PM
Actually niksnpl is the Gyane's chamcha.. ha ha |
| darshankaka | Posted
on 22-Apr-04 09:22 AM
Both are smiling/laughing when it rained.. Policemen and the demonstrators, shoulder to shoulder. So who is Gynae's chamcha? 
|
| yOuNgBlOoDz | Posted
on 22-Apr-04 10:51 AM
prem dai stop bull crappin.. if supportin ur sumone is being chamcha.. then ur freakin arse lickers of the freakin budho girija.. makune.. deuba.. n all those mofo's.. treat the way u expect to be treated............... peace, yb |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 22-Apr-04 11:25 AM
|
| niksnpl | Posted
on 22-Apr-04 11:25 AM
there is one saying.......... chor le sabai chor nai dekhchhan...... so he is seeing every body gyane chamchha's...even me ((aka)).... hahahaha.................. atleast there is one real gyane chamchha here in sajha.... i just verified that.............QED |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 22-Apr-04 11:25 AM
|
| niksnpl | Posted
on 22-Apr-04 11:26 AM
LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 22-Apr-04 11:27 AM
EAST OR WEST, DEMOCRACY IS THE BEST............................... |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 22-Apr-04 11:30 AM
As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master This expresses my idea of democracy. --Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865) |
| THE END | Posted
on 22-Apr-04 11:30 AM
Long live "doo ya quacy"!! |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 22-Apr-04 11:35 AM
Freedom is not an unlimited license, an unlimited choice, or an unlimited opportunity. Freedom is first of all a responsibility............... THIS IS THE THE THING WHICH WENT OPPOSITE WAY IN NEPAL.......... |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 22-Apr-04 12:33 PM
1 |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 22-Apr-04 12:33 PM
2 |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 22-Apr-04 12:34 PM
3 |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 22-Apr-04 12:34 PM
4 |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 22-Apr-04 12:35 PM
so boring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! where did all these gyane chamchha's disappear???????????? hahahahahaha |
| Nepali Kanchi | Posted
on 22-Apr-04 05:23 PM
isolated freak , thanks for the reccomendation, i'll definately check Kaplan's book out. I have read Principe in its original language. Do you know of any good translations? |
| isolated freak | Posted
on 23-Apr-04 08:09 AM
NepaliKanchi, The Cambridge Edition of The Prince is the best one, if you are looking for something with an in-depth analysis. Highly reccommended. Costs around 10 USD. The analysis part is great. The authors analyze the content of the original, then compare/contrast it with other thinkers, mainly Cicero. So, worth the money. I hope it helps. Also, check out Kaplan's The Coming Anarchy. Warrior Politics is more like a sequel to The Coming Anarchy. |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 23-Apr-04 11:45 AM
On democracy, again! Inspite of the authoritarian and abusive postings by some, I think this thread has finally attracted some insightful and thoughtful comments from some people that actually advances this important debate to the next level. One of the most instructive point raised by some right thinking people since my last entry was this: How can we hope to make democracy work in Nepal if we can't discuss issues democratically? How can we hope the leaders to do better if we can't engage is ideas and ideals without trying to savage the individuals who bring up ideas we don't agree to? I will just try to illustrate this important point raised by those people who obviously have their hand on the pulse of the nation and not just the rhetorical "I am holier than thou and all those who are not with me are with the devil" kind of absoluteness. Take for example what happened right after Girija Babu formed the first government after the elections of 1991. Within two months, the communists were out in the streets calling bandhs, smashing vehicles, burning tyres and so on and so forth. It did not take very long for the opposition communist legislators to surround the rostrum, break the benches, and mikes and bring the young democracy to a standstill from within the parliament! How can this be democratic practice? If we are not going to play by the existing laws and try to get your way through sheer physical brute force either on the street or in the parliament, how can democracy work? One of the fundamental assumptions and requirements of democracy is that most people and parties will play by the rules, have patience and wait for the due process of law. That means recognizing the government in power until it is removed from power in a democratic elections. You can oppose the ruling party peacefully, but you can not disobey the laws of the land. But our communist democrats have no such patience; for them it is "either my way, or there is no way." For such intolerant mindset, democracy works as long as you are in power. They will proclaim that theirs is the best democracy. Everything is fine as long as they are in power. But the moment they are not in power, it is not democracy anymore. And they will resort to all means (sadak, sadan, bandhs, burnings, destruction, etc) to get their way. I think this the main reason why democracy is having such a hard time in Nepal. We simply don't have the patience or the inclination to play by its rule...we don't want any rules to apply to us. Just take for example the the way we Nepalis line up for food at a buffet table, passport document at the ministry, or cinema ticket at Biswo Jyoti. We don't want to wait and take our turn...we just want to grab the first spot. In the process we are ready to trample and tread any and all. Actually we actually take pride when we get things achieved that way. To hell with rules, courtesy, and self-repect. So it is the same authoritarian mindset we bring to these discussions...although we are preaching democracy, we don't care to apply it to our own personal conduct, either at home, school, or here in Sajha. It is like the US marine trying to do democracy in Iraq with a tank....I alone have democracy and I am going to give it to you, whether you like it or not. If the other person as much as says, "But, Sir, I had heard that democracy also means the right to differ!"; the pseudo democrat will simply try to shut him with "You heretic; what you just uttered with your foul mouth is blasphemy; a fatwa has been issued for your head." And it is the same authoritarian mind that occasionally prowls on Sajhapur. And unless we can acquire the tolerance and respect for difference- the essence of real democratic mindset - all our tall claims of 'Only Me Democrat, You Demon' will just remain that. And finally, democracy is to serve the people, and not the other way. I think sometimes we forget this utilitarian purpose of democracy and try to make it into a 'khopako Ganesh' which is there only for pretentious display and occasional ritual chant value but never for actual practice. Let us get away from such idolatory SC |
| Rastafariya | Posted
on 23-Apr-04 11:50 AM
Democracy of course work in Nepal. It worked very very nice last time too. Them was many Democracy I is see last time too. Them direct result of Democracy is them new governmen things like CIAA. Now we needs more democracy so we is can also have FBII.- |
| Drona | Posted
on 23-Apr-04 12:18 PM
For DEMOCRACY to flourish in Nepal, it must find its place in all Nepalese citizens' heart. It's not the leaders' property, and they aren't solely responsible to protect and promote it. The sad part of the political game now is that the humble people are deprived of human rights and democracy. The root of the ongoing Maoist struggle lies in this fact. The poor people haven't been able to particiapte well in the national streamline. How can we raise the concern upto how much is needed? |
| nsshrestha | Posted
on 23-Apr-04 02:02 PM
Suva Chintak Sir, Nice filibuster.:) |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 23-Apr-04 02:04 PM
Dear Nepe jyu, Since you seem to have addressed this posting personally to to me with a considerable degree of aggression, I feel I need to respond in order to help you manage your irrational anger and hubris. I hope you will appreciate this clarification, because you are a great person. "Shuva Chintak and his comrade-in arm Isolated Freak, two royalists with ferver of a Mulaah themselves, have, on several occasions, given their verdicts that Nepali people should accept autocratic rule of Shah family. The rest is mere detail." Well, the first thing in resolving this kind of pathology you suffer from is to base yourself on basic facts. Where did you see me, hear me, or read me asking the Nepali people to accept autocratic rule, of whichever family? Or is it that you are such an anointed one you don't need facts and evidence simply because they are "mere detail"? Someone in the other thread indicates that you are a good doctor (A Dr. No?), but I am amazed at your cavalier attitude towards facts. Didn't they teach you that the devil is in the details...or did you simply getby doing extra courses on hate speech? "Although SC is faking a pose of rational queries, questioning, examination and all that, the matter of fact is that both SC's and IF's verdict to the autocratic rule of Shah family comes from their LOYALTY to the royal family that runs in their blood, not from the SCHOLAR REASONING that SC is faking. Otherwise why SC would 'examine' democracy just to rediscover the inherent weakness of the system every student of democracy knows, and leave it right there as if that would automatically justify his all time verdict for restoring the autocratic rule of Shah family in Nepal. And why he never 'examines' the Shahcratic form of democracy with the same yardstick applied to other forms he classifies himself ?" So it is not only that you don't yourself bother yourself with facts and rational analysis, you hate the guts of people who attempt to do so! How come you become so much anti-rationalist and pro-faith like the Blind Mullah? Yes, I examined democracy because I choose to as my personal right. If you are interested in Shahcratic from of democracy, why don't you do a similar rational analysis? Why are you begging me to do that for you? I will examine whatever I choose to, when I choose to, how I choose to. You have a problem with an individual exercising his sovereign right, democratic right? It tells us what kind of a sham democrat you are, but more of that later :--) And why do you freak out when I come to the same conclusion that every student of democracy knows, according to your own admission! And how can something that is know by all students of democracy be "fake", according to your own admission? Can't handle truth? Or are you in perpetual denial? All I can say is grow up and face the music, comrade doktor! And if you agree with me, as you have, about "inherent weaknesses" of democracy, why not confront it? Why not try to solve it rather than getting miffed at those who point that out as if ignoring it would somehow make it go away. Again, you show clear Mullah mindset, not a scientific orientation befitting a doctor. More comimin..... |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 23-Apr-04 02:05 PM
And the final question of blood, geneology and loyalty. I don't know how you came up with this bizarre and unfounded statement, but allow me to present to you a more verifiable psycho-social profile of a sham-demokrat: By your own admission on Sajha, you joined a communist group when you came to Kathamandu from Panauti. In Panauti, you were obviously from a well-to-do family that was used to telling other less fortunate villagers what to do, how to think, what not to do, and what not to think. Anybody who did not fall in line, of course got an earful, or worse from you. So you are socialized from early on to dominate, to tell weak and marginal folks what is right for them. Of course, you were doing all this for their own benefit, for their own good, right? Then you come to Kathmandu and look around for spaces that would further your early socialization. You see that the communist have the outfits where all the action is: you can throw stones, close down markets, shut down schools and vehicles; anyone who dares to even question your actions can be severely thrashed. That is the extent of intellectual dialogue, mutual-respect and toleration you engaged in. And may I suggest that that critical training in your personality is still serving you well here in Sajha forum! Everybody is afraid of you, they look up to you, the weak are in awe of you because you and your outfit can cause havoc instantaneously. This is greates phase in your psycho-social development: the party adores and pampers you as sarbaharako hero; you are allowed to do any thing to anyone at anytime; the party also makes sure there is a constant flow of $$$ to maintain your vigor and loyalty to the great cause of .. ahh ..um..democracy of course! By and by, Nepe rises through the ranks and gets to go to the USA! It is a great news, but it poses a certain practical dilemma (not a moral one, mind you!). Ever since he stepped into the communist outfit, he had been leading a vociferous and heroic struggle against the evil, capitalistic, imperialistic, and exploitative Amrikka. But a convenient outlet is found for this problem..just wear a democrat coat when you get off at the JFK airport. But as they say in Urdu,"Nei Mullah bahut Nawaj padta hai" (A new mullah reads too much koran; or its Nepali version is "Naya jogi le badhta kharani ghascha"). Similarly, Nepe feels that if he does not shout loud enough all the time, people here won't trust his democratic credentials. We are willing to trust you and give you the benefit of the doubt, but then you can not, despite recent conversion to "democracy", act like a normal democratic individual. Your dominating streak, born in the social-economic fields of Panauti and ably nurtured in Kathmandu comes back again and again and you feel the urge to tell everyone what is the right path, what people must think, and what they can not ask. If they start asking difficult questions, of course they have to be shot. Right, comrade doktor? Is that how all those people in Jahpa and elsewhere killed by the communists? Have you ever reconciled that past with your newfound love for democracy? It just amazes me: If this guy has the balls to dictate to us halfway across the world what to believe and want not to on pain of death over cyberspace, how do you think he respects the 'democratic rights' of poor villagers back home who are poorer, less educated, and less powerful than him? Would they stand any chance against such born to rule dictators? But you dictate for the poor peroson's own good right? Becasue he doesn't know any better, the party has to think and decide for him, right? More commin.... |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 23-Apr-04 02:37 PM
Nepe jyu saaid: "Even if the autocratic rule of Shah family is better than democracy as suggested by a Harvard Pundit, Nepali people are never going to accept that. Janata sanga kasko bau ko ke laagchha ?" Now what is your logic here (but but what is logic?). If, as you say, the autocratic rule is better than democracy, why shouldn't the people give that a thought? You can't expect the people to pass that just because a Panauti kaite says so. "Timewise, however, the question 'Will democracy work in Nepal' is right. Because we are yet to have democracy. The past decade was an experiment with handicapped democracy (with soveriengty still in hands of the royal family). It failed. It had to." Such simplicity. Sure, the royal family has some problems. But say that all the problems from 1990 onwards is due to the royal family and not to acknowledge any shortcoming of the people, voters, political parties, and leaders is such nonsense. May be it makes good speech to a communist youth league, but I think it insults our basic intelligence. "It is a bad joke when Nepali royalists talk about Lee Kuan Yews. Lee Kuan Yews are not the first son of a king, they are janatako chhorachhori. Hello ?" Nepe, I thought you were a democrat. How are you suddenly singing for Lee Kuan Yew? He is an autocrat, tyrant: he tells people where to spit, where not to spit, where to sit, where not to sit, what to write in the papersn, and what not to write, he tells people what to think, and what not to think! So he is your demorcatic role model? No wonder you are trying to imitate him here in Sajha! So the closet communist comes out in Lee Kuan Yew garb...what a shame! And two things about a janatako choro confusion: 1. It makes no sense...janatako choro? Janata is by definition plural, the populace. So it would indicate that this choro was fathered by the multitude. So if you went to Singapore to congratulate Yew for being the son of them all, I am not sure he would be happy! How about this: Janatako swasni; janatako girlfriend; janataka sasura; janatako salo. Are you ready for this? 2. Being a janatako choro even in your sense does not mean that the fellow will work for the welfare of the janata - people. If you did not know already let me give you a list: the biggest killers of people in history like Hitler, Stalin , Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Saddam, Marcos, Yahub Khan, Suharto, Pinochet, Mao and so on and so forth were all "janatako choros." That is no measure of how you will treat your fathers...and mothers of. And for your information, many of them came to power and ruled in the name of "democracy" and "people." That is why I am trying to keep the distinction between the rhetoric and practice of democracy! I am sure you will come back in a rage, full of accusations and condemnations. Do me a favor; at least be original in your choice epithets (even if we have to suffer through the hackneyed poems lifted from lord knows where and the equally self-pityful romance plots)! That is not much to ask for, is it? I used Mullah in one posting and you throw it right back the next moment. Com on, that is cheating...no sport! SC -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prem Charo Posted on 04-16-04 11:05 PM Reply | Notify Admin epe, Shame on you for your ghinlagdo comment!! Late King Birendra handed democracy to Nepali people and leaders as a baby, but those hungry leaders misused and abused democracy as an orphan child. Consequently, I can proclaim that Girija and other leaders were step-dad. They produced the leaders like Khum Bahadur Khadka and Govinda Raj Joshi... Now, you are saying they were experimenting for a decade. Well, current king might have done some mistekes for NOT doing anything good for the country, but did late King gave nepali people democracy for experiment for a freaking DECADE??? What a ridiculous remark!!! how can you argue democracy that was already disabled when it was handed??? Shame on you!! You are now saying like our leaders couldnot handle democracy for a decade. If they get it back, they will handle with care?????? |
| suva chintak | Posted
on 23-Apr-04 02:41 PM
nssrestha, Seems like you brushed your teeth, the last word you used against me was quite filthy muck. Or was that a fine examlpe of your version of democratic temperament? |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 23-Apr-04 02:48 PM
SC, what do you want to prove by those lengthy bhasans?? make it short, consise and to the point.......... that's the way, normal people understands.......... |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 23-Apr-04 02:52 PM
And you can't prove, in any means, that Gyanecracy is better than Democrcy.. You need 1000 reasons to convince people about the wrong thing.... But you can't prove a right thing wrong for a long time to all the people... And truth speaks for it self.. No long explanations required. YOU CAN MAKE ALL PEOPLE FOOL FOR SOME TIME, SOME PEOPLE FOOL FOR ALL THE TIME, BUT YOU CAN'T MAKE ALL PEOPLE FOOL FOR ALL THE TIME... and gyanecracy's base stands on the negation of thelast statement.......YOU CAN MAKE ALL PEOPLE FOOL FOR ALL TH E TIME..... HAVE FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 |
| nsshrestha | Posted
on 23-Apr-04 03:41 PM
Suva Chintak Sir, You think it is just you who knows the art to lapoon!! Temperamente Democratique is inherent, don't need to borrow, as you do once in a while. Check your own posting and you will know who did how much vomoting. I enjoy your writing though you do not resonate me. Hope you will practice your sermons. The Lady Doth Protest Too Much!!! |
| sense | Posted
on 23-Apr-04 04:19 PM
NOt a question that so called king these days is going completely against the will of the people..for example his step taken yesterday..call on for badri parsad mandal, sher bahadur deuba, n pashupati JB rana...what the heck.... they even havent shown solidarity on the ongoing pro democracy movement n they r invited in the durbar.. the king didnt even dare to convince even one of the leaders from the five party front..shame on him...may be he has a sense of nationality but it is slowly turning blind by his chamchas...n he has no reason to be the king of nepal if his knowledge is biased by some oppotunists. Now the big question still remains..there is no quetion that there will either be election or a multyparty govt sooner or later. BUt how to deal with the maoists..is their any vision in parties how they r going to sort this out if they ever get the things they r claiming for. N the big question is the major problem in our democratic practice..no matter what the ideology r within our political parties its not going to work out till there is a vision n a thorough discussion from the grassroot level. Maoists sooner or later will come to negotiations specially after india taking tuff stand against them..otherwise they will remain terrorists n that will be a disaster. So my personal opinion is ...lets put aside the question of monarchy for the moment..bring maoists on the table ..lets make certain ammendments that they want in the constitution ofcourse after through negotiations....afterall addressing minority is also a part of democracy..n no matter what maoists is a minority ..we should admit that. and after all this go for a general election.....the question of monarchy should be left to our future generation coz everybody knows who the next king is going to be;) |
| An Indun Poet | Posted
on 23-Apr-04 04:29 PM
suva chinkat with another lengthy vaasan-- you write very well, you could write for Gyane's Sambodhans. |
| nsshrestha | Posted
on 23-Apr-04 04:37 PM
Oh well forgot to tell u, Hope you have understood the context sensitivity of Babucha by now :) |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 23-Apr-04 04:42 PM
WAS THERE SOMETHING WORTHFUL???????? I REALLY DOUBT....... HEHEHAAHAH |
| niksnpl | Posted
on 25-Apr-04 01:38 AM
And the conclusion of this long thread is " Democracy will surely work in Nepal" Every one will accept it, excluding Gyane Chamchhas............:P |
| Prem Charo | Posted
on 25-Apr-04 01:58 AM
Suva Chintak jyu Why did you copied and pasted my comments and didn't write anything on that? I know Biswo is pointless creature who doesn't make sense to me at all these days. But Can you explain me little bit more. Prem Charo Hwaii |
| Shaiva | Posted
on 25-Apr-04 03:29 AM
niksjyu, please read: "Katmandu Asks: Is Gyanendra Smoking as Nepal Burns?" Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/25/international/asia/25NEPA.html?ex=1083470400&en=4c66c71fbd0c179c&ei=5040&partner=MOREOVER |
| dreadlord | Posted
on 26-Apr-04 11:47 PM
First of all Stop asking Questions. They Are not going to reply to nobody. All your Talks About Politics and Shit.. They Dont Give A *uCk About It. If u want To say or Do things, U`ll just have to do it yourself literally. |
| Murkha Maila | Posted
on 27-Apr-04 03:43 AM
Very interesting discussions going on. Moreover, sajha heavyweights engaging in heayweight-boxing like manner makes it more livelier and exciting. I am loving it, loving it. loving it. Fokat to sasto manoranjan chodne ta chance nai chaina. On a serious note, shouldn't we be focusing on how to solve this ongoin Maoist insurgency than debate about democracy working or not? After this Maoist problem. we have all the time to think about democracy, monarchry or even any other alternative governing system that is best suited for Nepal. Even the Jagat Bahadur from Jumla should be equally involved how to choose the governmnet of Nepal once the Maoist problem is resolved. But for the time being, king, all the political parties and all Nepali citizens should be seriously involved in ending this Maoist situation where thousands and thousands of people have lost their lives ( c'mon, people are being killed by the both sides and all we care about who is better--king or democracy. Give me a break.) Even the political parties whom we, the Nepali people, have trusted so much in the past 12 years to give Nepal a new direction are breaking the " tundikhel ko barr." How pathetic can that be. This simply makes this Maila sick to his stomacha. Nepali ma ukhan chha nee " Kas lai k ko dhanda, ghar jwai lai khana kai dhanda." Tyai ho. Bujne lai kura gahiro cha, nabujne lai ghar cheu mai gahiro pairo cha. lau ja ta--kannai sithi. Murkha Maila trying to decipher the current political scenario |