| Username |
Post |
| oohi_ashu |
Posted
on 15-Sep-01 07:11 AM
Namita wrote:
>This is also the country that trampled on the natives, eliminated them, herded >them from east to west like cattles to make way for their “ideals.” How many of >them are left now from the direct result of this?
OK, so you may have read authors like Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky and
others too. Fine. At least, they have better, sharper arguments.
But what has your above paragraph got to do with this 5000-plus people dead since last Tuesday? Are you saying that because American history is less than ideal (a well-known fact to any student of history), what happened on Tuesday
is somehow justified and 'had to happen' to the US?
How had those who have died since Tuesday "trampled on the natives, eliminated them, herded them from east to west like cattles to make way for their “ideals" ? Or was it all right for them to be punished by acts of unimaginable terror for whatever sins of their white American ancestors?
Just what is your point?
>This is also the country that champions a “new world order” of capitalism, >individualism, and democracy that should (they think) be the way of life for >everyone every where.
Thanks to capitalism, Namita, Harvard University, your employer, pays you
decent wages.If it didn't, then capitalism gives you the flexibility to find a
better employer anytime anywhere.
Thanks to individualism, you could and have, to paraphrase your own words,
walked out of a marriage if you did and do not like it.
Thanks to democracy, your views can be posted in public like this without
censors, and read and countered in an OPEN manner in ways like this
and others.
So, after seeing how you, as one example, have been a beneficiary of capitalism, individualism and democracy, it is hard for any intelligent Nepali to take the basis of your rantings against "capitalism, individualism, and democracy" seriously.
Or perhaps some of us are just not getting your fine sense of humor.
>This is the country that brought up the concept of globalization when they want >to exploit other have-not countries.
Well, thanks to globalization, here you are -- a Nepali woman, married to
a German, working in America with an European Union card and posting stuff
on the Internet with your own mind for a GLOBAL Nepali audience to read.
Given this, how MORE of an "anti-globalization" person do you want to be so
as not to let your adopted country "exploit other have-not countries"?
Again, from your own example, it is hard to take your gaali against
globalization seriously.
Or are you, as I hope not, thinking in terms of:
"Globalization for me;
but not for thee?"
That would be a terribly selfish attitude, you know.
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| oohi_ashu |
Posted
on 15-Sep-01 08:24 AM
>They shall produce for Americans to consume, They shall be paid what the >American masters think is “right.” Without any responsibility this country wants >to trumpet being the Number One. They are millions and millions of people are >left behind yet America is getting richer and stronger. America thought it was >invincible but, if you are a 2-ton elephant roaming around eating any grass >comes on the way then others notice and RESENT.
Well, just because you RESENT somebody's 'success' or some nation's 'success' does not give any one or any nation any right to try to do damage to that
person or to that nation.
The solution to resentment, as you well know, is NOT cowardly attacks on innocent civilians. And so, given the complications of the US foreign policies, some countries in the world may well resent America, but did America deserve what it got last Tuesday? I think not.
And any Ec.10 student around Harvard Yard can tell you that the vagaries of global economies are such that America alone does NOT reign supreme as the global economic superpower. Happenings in places like Argentina, Mexico or South Esat Asia affect the American economy in ways unimaginable only a few years
ago. So your fantasy of America masters whipping 'korra' at the rest of the
world is just that: a fantasy.
> So far 5 thousand killed, the symbol of Triumphant Capitlaism is in rubbles
Capitalism is NOT "in rubbles".
Why are you showing this "chicken little" syndrome . . . you know, the story about a chicken that goes around telling others that the sky has fallen?
For far better arguments, please read Princeton economist Paul Krugman's column in the New York Times soon after the Tuesday atacks. I think his that piece came out on Thursday.
>How many Sudanese people were killed and how many children were made walk >in the alligator infested water?
Since you brought this up, you tell us the numbers.
How many Sudanese indeed?
Whatever the numbers, how is this relevant in the case of those who have
done the dying since last Tuesday?
Again, somehow the US deserve the attacks?
>How many perished? How many African children >are made slaves? How many >Africans are dying? How many Rawandans got >killed? How many Bosnians? This >kind of terrorism is the daily reality of Israelies >(sp) and Palestinians.
FYI, there is this international body called the United Nations (and its various agencies) that are primarily responsible for the world's refugees.
For an insider account on one of these these complicated international situations, may I recommend that you first read books like: "We wish to inform you that tomorrow we will be killed with our families: stories from Rwanda" by Philip Gourevitch? I say this because the stuff you are saying here about Bosnia and Rwanda are not painted in such black and white colors.
>USA pushed and pushed its agenda without pausing. A lot of countries/pepole >resent America for what it has and how far it is from these countries reach. And >the arrogance?
So what?
Just because America may be "arrogant" to some eyes, does that mean that that much damage to life and property is somehow all right and justified?
You know, and I am sorry to use this example, strictly in terms of logic and logic alone, your reasoning here is similar to those idiots who say that women who
wear sexy miniskirts in public are itching/inviting to be raped, and even if they are raped, that is somehow justified by their behaviors!!
'America is "arrogant"; therefore it got attacked.' -- that is, after all, the crux of your point here.
I mean, wow!!?
> Unless USA does not change its ways how it wants to treat other countries
>(either their econonmic colonies or country with different values), we should >expect this kind of terrorism again and again.
Your reasoning here is: "good behavior on the part of the US equals fewer
acts of terrorism." And because America had been acting nastily and aroogantly,
it got hammered.
Finally, I love democracy and globalization and individualism to say that, all together, I found Namita's posting high on self-righteous anger (sort of an ill-informed Marxist-Leninist-Leftist bullshit some people peddle outside of Au Bon Pain in Harvard Square), and low on both entertainment and enlightenment.
Not that, as Jerry Seinfeld would say in another context, there is anything wrong
with that!!
Of course, this is just this Nepal-based capitalist individualist's opinion. Feel
free to disagree.
oohi
ashu
ktm, nepal
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| ashu |
Posted
on 18-Sep-01 02:09 AM
re: that capitalism is "in rubbles"
Here is an extract from Paul Krugman's column in The NYT.
"About the direct economic impact: The nation's productive base has not been seriously damaged. Our economy is so huge that the scenes of destruction, awesome as they are, are only a pinprick. The World Trade Center contained 12 million square feet of office space; that's out of 375 million square feet in Manhattan alone, and 3.5 billion in the United States as a whole. Nobody has a dollar figure for the damage yet, but I would be surprised if the loss is more than 0.1 percent of U.S. wealth — comparable to the material effects of a major earthquake or hurricane."
You can read the rest at:
http://nytimes.com/2001/09/14/opinion/14KRUG.html
Also, this too.
http://nytimes.com/2001/09/18/opinion/18ROAC.html
oohi
ashu
ktm, nepal
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| rajesh gurung |
Posted
on 18-Sep-01 08:11 AM
Not frequenting this haunt regularly, often not even having the time to, I limped into this argument only by beginning to imagine how confused our Namita Devi was/is....Yes Ashu is right!
There is absolutely no justification for this kind of " the horror..the horror"........This IS almost Apocalyptic....this is terrorism...this is nefarious! How can anyone in their sanest mind condone/justify this insensate attack on people just waking up and going for work, like you and I do on any normal day.
Even if you are lashing out only to disguise the anguish within you I urge you to reach for the kernel and articulate exactly how you feel because you are more woman/human than that.
Namaste'
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| sunakhari |
Posted
on 18-Sep-01 01:31 PM
Very well said Rajesh!
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| hijo-aja |
Posted
on 19-Sep-01 12:27 AM
Reading the arguments that are repudiating Namitaji's feelings and the way they flow into "So what?" and stuff, I read a sense that the writers think it is alright for the USa to do everything and anything. I do not sympathize with the terrorists who did the horrible deed in new York but I do feel that there are reasons, events, policies, situations that have eventually led to this unfortunate event. What went wrong that some people hate the US so much that they go to such lengths to make such hatred known? Where did the US go wrong? Or where did the terrorists get their injured sense of honor that pushes them to kill themselves just to prove a point? Instead of being disgusted forever with what happened (you can't help feeling, but there needs to be a clearheaded thinking) I feel we need to look into the causes of the horror. Namita points out the history of the US but I would think that it is the present of the US that is more disturbing. People, look from where the monster called Bin laden came; look from where the Tamils in Ceylon sprouted from...no man is a born-terrorist....there are circumstances that make one. The most guilty are those who create those circumstances. I am not pointing my finger at anyone because I do not have enough facts but I very strongly believe that many people have faltered.
Those who died in NYC have nothing to do with the Indian wars in the US. Quite a few of them were non-US citizens too. But what would have the innocent, deprived, starving Afghan civilians have to do with the deaths in the Twin Towers either? If we want to condemn horrible deeds, we should condemn the New York tragedy in the same breath as we condemn the vietnam war, the American Indian wars, and the likes. Of course one does not justify the other but it does ignite a chaiun of events that leads to such things. Humanity has condoned terrorism by the established governments and condemned others for a long time. Both governmental as well non-gvernmental terrorisms should stop.
I am not so conversant with the aims and objectives of the terrorists neither am I conversant with the activities of the CIA, pakistani ISI, Indian RAW or the Israeli Mossad. I am unfortunately conversant with the stands of the international coalition building up. Nobody said anything when there were huge collateral damage in the Gulf war as well in the vietnam war...the terrorists, whoever they are, would say that the tragedy in NYC and in DC was a huge collateral damage. After all, they will say, they were striking the financial and military centers of the US not the civilians.
Capitalism has been a big boon to those of us who have come to the US and are having a great time here. We are a drop in the ocean. If we are smug after we are here (we have a right to: individualism!), there are many others, many many others who are NOT here, in the hub of comfort. Harvard does pay Namita good (doesn't it Namita?) but I think she also pays commensurate tax to the US govt. which makes her pissed off about the way things are going on. If we make pea-nuts while marvelling at the success of the capitalist economy, we should shut up.
I get angry when people desperately try to flow with the tide when times are difficult. This is the time when it matters where you stand! Stand where justice is. Condemn New York tragedy but have the guts to say that there are causes for it and point out who you think is responsible.
Sorry if I hurt anyone...my two cents worth..
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| Asstoss |
Posted
on 19-Sep-01 04:32 PM
Do you see Mr. Charlatan hiding? Not answering hijo-aja? A shameless America apologist. And also have you noticed how he has to be the center of attention no matter what? Even at the expense of making himself the biggest fool around. He does nothing but going after any person who does not agree with him. What a disgrace.
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| TP |
Posted
on 19-Sep-01 10:15 PM
We all dream of a perfect world where no one is battered and justice is served to all. This has never happened and will never happen. All we can do is do good to people around you and keep in mind some of the following points.
The powerful and the wealthy ones will usually rule over the helpless and poor bunch. America will rule over other helpless nations much alike how jamindaars in Nepal rule over villagers. The fallout of an unequal world is that the helpless, oppressed ones will suffer and brew hatred towards the powerful ones. So there will be a rise of Muslim extremists and a rise of Nepali oppressed ones aka Maobadis. There will be tension, there will be violence and there will be bloodshed.
The world is uncertain. Americans took too many things for granted and the tragedy proved that the granted world was an illusion. You and I can earn all the wealth in the world and exercise daily to live healthy, but you never know when a plane will fall from the sky and land on top of you. So, make everyday of your life as meaningful as you can.
Don't dislike Americans and don't dislike terrorists. Dislike hatred people have towards each other. If you can do good to people around you and be an example to other people, then you could change the world in a simple but different way.
Hope this is more than 2 cents...
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