| Username |
Post |
| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 20-Oct-01 09:21 AM
Dear all,
How low can nepali journalists/editors can stoop to sell their papers? For answer, check out the latest issue of NepaliTimes at http://www.nepalnews.com .
Why is it that everyone in Nepal hates bahuns? And why noone dares to come forward to defend bahuns against the alleghations that they are the ones screwing up the whole country? If a bahun says that to some other ethnci groups, then every group, including bahuns like Kanak Dixit come for the defense of that group. This makes me think that either Kanak Dixit feels guilty of being a bahun/or that he simply believes in what he hears.
I admit that there haven't been equal representation of all ethnic groups in decision making bodies and for some obvious and some not-so-obvious raesons, bahuns and chetrris tend to dominate these bodies, but that does not mean other ethnic groups in nepal are oppressed/exploited. I STRONGLY RESENT these views. before going on to bash bahuns, Mr dixit should have looked into his own organization which I think employees more bahuns than anyone else.
I also resent Mr Dixit like-wallahs, padhe-lekheka murkha bahun haroo-ko view. (sorry, if I am being to harsh here, but I have no guilty feeling calling Mr Dixit a mediocore intellectual, who knows nothing except than selling his biased newspaper). Here's something to Mr Dixit and his Likewallahs mediocore intelelctuals: what do you think we should do with the Nepali Society? Do you really think that the bahuns are exploiting the janajatis?
NO, Bahuns are probably the most oppressed group in Nepal. Here's a little fact from Nepali history: We have had Kirati kings, we have had Newar kings, we have had thakuri kings, we have had kings of all otrher groups, but we NEVER had a bahun ruler. Infact, we are the most oppressed group in Nepal. Poor bahuns work at chule-bahuns at the homes of rich newars. They are the ones who get to eat Katto--which no other group even dares to touch. We are the ones who always get blamed for whatever that goes wrong in the country, and people like Doer Bahadur Bishta (please see his book "fatalism and development in nepal--which by the way is another example of intellectual mediocracy) and Kanak Dixit fail to/or simply pretend not to know this.
There's racism/ethnic division even in the US--a country thatis hardly 300 eyars old. African Americans/Native Americans/Hispanis/Asian Aserican are be3ing discriminated against. Mr. Dixit, I presume that you have been to new York city and that you have visited Harlem. Now compare Harlem with Times Square. Do I need to write anything more? racism exists there too. has tehre been an African American president in the US? Blaming bahuns for nepal's underdevelopment is like blaming every white american you see on the street for every racial-problem in the US. Is it a right thing to do? I guess, in Kanak's view, its good, its just and its the right thing to do.
If racism/discrimination exists even in a new country like the US, then ours is a country that has a history of 3000 years. So, how can you expect to change the system that's already there for so long by publishing a biased bash-bahuns-they-are-the-evils piece? Mr. Dixit, you saw your friend, Mr Timba/Tashi (whoever it was) being summoned by this Brahmin/Chetri looking gentleman, but how can you honstly say that you haven't seen a mongoloid/or any other ethnic tribe humiliate a bahun in the public? Why don't you write about them as well?
And, Mr Dixit, No matter what you write, or what intellectuals of your likes say, I am PROUD to be a bahun. And I see nothing wrong with that. If a newar/magar/sherpa/gurung kid can be proud of his heritage, then why can't I? OK, I admit, certain bahuns like Girija's likes screwed up the country but haven't there been misiters of other ethnic groups other than bahuns? People like Kanak Dixit are making bahuns who have nothing to do with what goes on in the country unenecessarily feel guilty of their bahun heritage. THIS IS INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY and MISUSE of his skills.
Is the Nepali Times brave enough to publish this letter?
I suppose not.
Trailokya Raj Aryal
kathnmandu, Nepal
|
| Sudda Bahun |
Posted
on 20-Oct-01 03:06 PM
Truth is sometimes hard to digest, especially if it as your expense. I know Kanak Dixit sometimes makes overstatements, but we can not deny some of the sociological facts in his article. How can we account for the fact that almost 70 per cent of Nepali congress high command, 90 per cent of UML and 60 percent of Maubadi party are Bahuns? In the total population, the Bahuns comprise no more than 12 percent? Over 75 per cent of all the senior governemnt secretaries and 80 percent of CDO's in Nepal are Bahuns....one could go on and on with these examples...the media is totally controlled by Bahuns...what does that say for social, political, cultural, administrative equality? When someone points out these difficult facts on the ground, I think we Bahun should not get angry and defensive and go into denial. We should instead realize the concrete basis on which so many other castes and ehnic groups hate us as greedy Bahun Bajes. What is needed is not denial but a hard look at reality and try to reform the situation. That is the only positive response for the long term interethnic harmony.
My two cents.
Mata Durgale sabaiko kalyan garun!
|
| dude |
Posted
on 20-Oct-01 06:11 PM
are u sure only 12% of the population is bahun???
|
| Sudda Bahun |
Posted
on 21-Oct-01 02:34 PM
Yes, Bahuns in Nepal do not comprise more than 12 per cent of the total population.The larget single caste/ethnic group in Nepal is Chhetris, which comprises about 18 per cent.
One additional point on Aryalji's comment on katto practice: it was not, as he suggests, forced upon the Brahmin. At one time it was considered a privilege to receive the king's katto, it brought with it huge amounts of riches. So the Brahmin religious leaders made the rule that only the Brahmin could eat it --- if it was considered a bad thing they would have made a rule that a Gurung, Magar or any of the other occupational castes eat it. Even now, nobody forces a Bahun to eat it, it is purely voluntary decision. People who like the money accept it.
Peace to all!
|
| Kisan |
Posted
on 21-Oct-01 03:36 PM
What an arrogant, blunt comment! You have totally missed the points Kanak is trying to make. You haven't gone over the context he is referring to. Just take a serious look at the socio-demographic facts and think how BAHUNBAD (if I can borrow the word from the book Fatalism and Develop by Dor Bdr Bista) has evolved in the country. I think you have taken it more personally than anything else. How realistic is it to say that BAHUNs are oppressed just because none of the kings were BAHUNs. Rediculous! Actually it is not worth mulling over such stupid bashings by someone who doesn't seem to digest the harsh reality. By the way, could you give us just one example that can be considered better journalism beside Kantipur than what Himal Media has been offering for so long.
|
| GP |
Posted
on 21-Oct-01 10:58 PM
This is known facts. But, the way the ratio is increasing is
alarming and it should be studied, why peoples from other
Janajati could not come to power house of NISHENI?
That needs to have detailed studies. Pointing digits is
beginning, but, not a solution. Solution should not be
based on quota system, but, by debugging the bugs
in current NISHENI. One of them might be the
Nepali Language in Lok Sewa Aayog. I want to see
the major business owned by different ethinics,
because Bahuns and chhetri fail first in business and
commerce than peoples from any other ethnics?
I don't know the reason. The third reason might
be combination of these two reasons, i.e. Bahuns
fail in business, others less chances of failing in
commerce biz, and the payscale in govt. to
hang around for life time (except few corrupt
peoples) might be too low for well capable peoples
from other ethinics who think spending time in
Govt. and politics as a waste time and money
and life. So, those who are successful and I mean
most brilliant from other ethinics ( of course the
education ratio is comparatively less) venture
in business than in govt. job and politics. Thus,
politics and govt. jobs might be joined by peoples
who are mostly dumb and have no other ideas
or interest or capability to do. We all know, the
second class student become govt. employee and
third class become politicians in our country. So,
why not we look at depth what attract Bahuns
in govt. job abd politics and what fails others to
become govt. job? There must be some bugs,
govt. jobs and politics are for dumb peoples who
are not capable of doing other things, and lets
see the ratio in business too? The enterpreunership
should also be looked inside as one of the most
important reason why the most brilliant talents from
ethnic groups don't like or could not find jobs and
political positions?
In politics, I am wondering whether the ethnic
movements in Nepal is departing most brilliant
peoples from ethnic groups in leading the
major political parties, what I can feel is that
some of the brillian peoples after some level
were sorrounded by the cadres from their own
ethinic groups and forced to leave the main
stream, and instead of becoming leader of
all ethnic groups, they turn out to be
leader of their own ethnic groups alone? It
might have created a vacum? Is there any
research in this area?
The bugs should be identified and we should
make system like mixing of water-and-milk, and we should
not be repelling each other seggregating each
other like WATER-AND-OIL.
GP
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 22-Oct-01 11:53 PM
Dear Trailokyaji:
I think the main purpose of article is to draw our attention towards the sluggish
pace of development in non-Bahun (and non-Newar) demographic cross section,
rather than to emphasize that Bahuns are responsible for that. Of course, in
the name of being liberal and revolutionary, a lot of our experts fall prey to do
extreme bahun-bashing and Knak has also extrapolated a lot from unrelated facts.
[In another note: I was compelled to write my first posting in gbnc after Ashu's
upper caste bashing in the case of ambassador Nobel Kishore Rai's infamy related
to his unpaid bills in Germany. :-) ]
Of course, there is something wrong in our system.You go little bit up in social
hierarchy, catch a secretary level person, and try to find out what his relatives
are doing and you will find that all his relatives are in better position in the country.
This theory applies to those who are below the social progress ladder: those who
are poor, they are poor,their relatives are poor and their community is poor.LIke
I always said, we don't have 'caste-ism' in Nepal, we have 'connection-
ism'.Anyway, for whatever reason, the nation's resources are not being fairly
shared. Lower castes are yet to become equal partner in such sharing.
The root cause is ,may be, because we don't practice meritocracy. People
celebrate their unholy connection(network) publicly.In this situation, how can you
expect a low caste poor boy to get foothold in Nepali beaurocracy or statecraft?
And who else should initiate work to ameliorate this situation than the one in
power now?
Btw, Kanak Dixit is, basically, a fine journalist, I think.In 1999, I read his
investigative article about stolen images(idols etc) of Nepal in Himal. It was great.
Of course, when you are working a lot , and writing a lot, sometimes you write
garbages also. I remember reading 'King's role in Nepal' related article and some
other articles of him which lacked sufficient imagination to warrant serious attention
from serious readers.But he is a talented journalist, and I have enormous respect
for him.
And finally, what I objected was his conclusion after the article. He says there
were this and that type of responses, and progresses on to imply such responses
demonstrate the backwardness of society in such matter. How can he use his
own article as the yardstick in such serious social matter? The sad thing about
Nepal is everybody takes themselves too seriously.
|
| ashutosh |
Posted
on 23-Oct-01 11:39 AM
Hi all
I have forwarded this entire discussion to Kanak -- inviting him to visit this
gbnc.org and elaborate his thoughts on this issue further.
Depending on how busy he is, he may join us here.
No promises, but let us see how things go.
We all need to work hard to attract first-rate posters to this site to add
to the credibility of this site and also to the depth of our learning.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| The Hill Brahman |
Posted
on 23-Oct-01 03:03 PM
Bahuns: Good, Bad and Ugly
Part 1
Just pasting a RELEVANT posting from another discussion board where a similar topic was discussed three months ago about the ‘badness’ of Bahuns. Hope this note by “The Hill Brahman” is objective enough to shame those Bahuns (like the few priestly families in Ktm.) who might have had a role in mis-managing the country, while making all those progressive Bahuns – from the hardworking farmers in Myagdi to the social reformers in Bhojpur proud of their role in helping build the country. Hope people also appreciate the tone of this posting which is constructively critical of Bahuns as well as others, but refrains from a puritanical pitfall that Kanak Mani's perverse jingoism falls into (seemingly factual, but suspiciously ill-intended, hence unhelpful in advancing the debate). Note that what follows was written in a different context by “The Hill Brahman” in reaction to five main points that were raised in another discussion series. This is thus not directly related to postings above, but is indirectly so.
1. On the Caste System: Needless to say this is today an anachronistic way of organizing a society. It is bad on all fronts: economically, professions get determined on the basis of the accident of birth, not skills or abilities one possesses. Socially, the system obstructs mobility across socio-economic classes, reducing incentives for entrepreneurship and wealth creation and a sense to do 'good' and be recognized for her deeds, not, again, the accident of birth. Most important of all, it is immoral because the system attaches a higher premium on some individuals over others plainly on the basis of the accident of birth. This should be fought and defied on multiple grounds: legislation, social reforms, education. It is wrong to assume thought that the primary proponents and beneficiaries of the caste system have been Brahmans. So many ethnic groups have divided themselves along caste lines barring marriages, and worse. The Bahuns are divided between the Purbiyas and the Kumais. The Newars, as decreed by Yaksha Malla of the 15th century, still follow an orthodox caste system within their own group; even the Gurungs have subdivisions within, not to mention that interesting group of Hinduized Tibetans, the Thakalis. There are more examples. It is useless pointing out that the caste system was brought into the mountains from the plains by fleeing Brahmins and Thakuris 800 years ago. As Dor Bista points out, Hindu forms of social organization were voluntarily adopted by the Khasa (un-Hinduised Indo-Aryans who populated the Karnali, Kumaon and Garhwal) and couldn't have been imposed by the newly arrived migrants who were weak asylum seekers themselves. Anyway, my point is before looking at the broader relation between castes, let's look at relations between sub-groups within our caste. Let's begin the process of reform from within us, within our homes. It is only after these internal assaults succeed that we will be able to take on the larger vice of social stratification. Isn't it ironically interesting that the most active group of people fighting the caste system and antiquated Hindu mores, since the Rana days, is the reform-minded Brahmins themselves? Which other group has had a more distinguished track record in the area of social reform? In the Michael Ondaatje novel, "Anil's Ghost", a character says, "we are six hours from Colombo, and you are whispering. Think about that." Indeed, think about that.
2. Civil Service: the illusion of Brahmin dominance probably comes out most strongly because they dominate the Nepali civil service. Like historic domination of key sectors by key ethnic groups, e.g., Newars in trade, commerce and industry, Chetri/Thakuris in the gazetted classes of the army, and Magar, Gurung, Rai, Limbu in the non-gazetted classes of Nepali, Indian and British armies, Kamis in metalworks, Sherpas in affairs of the high altitude, Brahmins have had an advantage with respect to access to education, especially the kind of education in which they have an edge. The promotion of Sanskritized Nepali, an Indo-european language, as the lingua franca definitely helped Brahmins to assume most positions in the civil service. This will need to change as we promote education, and reform entry mechanisms into the civil service so that a graduate Sattar from Jhapa is on an even playing field with a Brahmin from Pyuthan. We will need to rationalize the education system and erase social rigidities so radically that in the future we should find it natural to see Bahuns leading the army, Limbus becoming administrators, Tamangs becoming mountaineers, and Tharus becoming leading businessmen. There is no genetic link between the ethnicities and their professions. Nepali civil service is the visible face of government, but to lead discussions as if national life begins and stops with the civil service, and as though this is the only important public puzzle is plain ignorance that only mediocre journalists, who love the pretentious guise of the social scientist, posit. The civil service is 93,000 strong and the majority of them are Bahuns, which is probably why other groups feel this paranoia about Bahun hegemony. But what about other sectors? The present dominance of key sectors by key groups is a result of long, historical processes that will take time to change. Many Brahmans recognize this is a flawed set up and we need to shake it up. Democracy, that has been ushered in twice into the country by Bahun-Chetri-Newar led (remember, led by these, but participated by all) coalitions, has given us the space to make amends.
3. On Bahunbad: it has been fashionable in Nepal these days for Bahun bashers to couch their anger in the term "bahunbad" with the mandatory disclaimer that, "oh, we are not against Bahuns, just against bahunbad - the idea of supremacy, devaluation of labor, etc". Sure we need to fight attitudinal problems of this kind, and many Bahuns are against the so-called 'Bahunbad', but to attribute these traits to a group is highly derogatory. Just see what happens when we extend this logic of playing on the stereotypes. Relentless pursuit of profits or greed is Newarbad? Irrational display of bravery or plain stupidity as articulated by Bhupi Sherchan is Mongolbad? Arrogance and vanity is Thakuribad? Let's call spade a spade, and fight flawed tendencies and ideas, but not look for glorified terms to demean ethnic identities.
|
| The Hill Brahman |
Posted
on 23-Oct-01 03:10 PM
Ctd:
4. On Political Power: Bahuns have never ruled pre-1950 Nepal. A handful of Brahmin families - the Dixits and the Pandeys have served as pujaris to the Rana and Shah rulers while also masquerading as pseudo advisers, as have a lineage of Newars served as court administrators and of course the Chetri/Thankuri group that has completely dominated the military since the 1760s. A few non-representative Bahuns with access to these rulers can be indirectly blamed for some of the perverse influences they might have exercised, but don't rulers themselves have to ultimately assume full responsibility for their actions? It is stretching bigotry a bit too far to place all ills that Nepal has faced so far at the macro, political level to the Brahmins, and not to Thakuris - the Shahs and the Ranas - who have directly ruled over 220 years of the 237 years that the Nepali state has come into existence. Was it not Jung Bahadur who codified Hindu mores as state law in 1854? Look at the historical pattern: the elite, almost always non-Bahun, have resorted to religion to legitimize their reign. Bahuns have always been used as instruments. At the village level, the situation is slightly different. Purohits, again a minority group within the Brahmin class, as sole interpretors of the religious texts may have had undue influences in affairs of village life. They might have also taken advantage of the caste system to preach supremacy and institutionalize societal stratification. This needs radical changing, and three things are key: education, urbanization, and social reform. It is my guess that 7 in 9 Brahmins neither have played any advisory role to the Thakuri rulers nor have been pundits in the villages. They, like most ethnic groups have always been subsistence farmers, perhaps with a slightly higher social recognition that they derived from their position in the caste hierarchy. This status, many might have used to good use by providing village leadership, dispensing local justice, etc. But many have might also abused it by extorting and embezzling incomes of the depressed, or resorting to their monopolistic (and flawed) interpretation of the religion to assert quasi-superiority. We don't know the complete story. No one has added up the pieces. To generalize is unhelpful. There may be hundreds of anecdotal evidences of cases of usury by Newars, or of repression in land issues by the usually wealthy Chetri/Thakuri elite in the villages. Do we generalize and start rubbishing the whole clan? Let us be clear: Brahmins have come to power only after 1950 in systems that they have played a role in introducing. The 104 year old Rana oligarchy was overthrown through a Nepali Congress led armed struggle, then chaired by Matrika Koirala and driven, de facto, by BP Koirala and Subarna Shumshere. The foundations of the Rana regime were first shaken by the Praja Parishad, presided by Tanka Prasad Acharya. Matrika became the first ordinary Nepali prime Minister (earlier ones from Bhimsen through Mohan Shumshere were all aristocrats), Tanka Prasad had his stint, and BP Koirala became the first democratically elected premier in the country's history in 1959. These three Brahmans didn't rule between 1951 and 1961, because of the accident of the birth but because they had risked their lives to open the political space, through democracy, to ALL Nepalis. Look at the caste composition of BP Koirala's 1959 cabinet. You will be stunned how progressive it was. During the Panchayat, the only Bahun to have become PM was Kirti Nidhi Bista. After 1990, the three Brahmins who have become PM - GP, KP and Manmohan have become so for nearly 50 years of political investment in favor of multiparty democracy, including 20-30 years of imprisonment or exile, and not because of their accident of birth. True, the share of Brahmins/Chetris in the parliament and the cabinet, especially after 1990, is disproportionate to their population share of about 30%. But while recognizing the deficiency of this sort of composition, we should note that these are all people who have ended up where they are through the ballot box, elected by all the people, quite legitimately in recognition of their past struggles. We will need to do much better at representing all Nepali groups in organs of the state, but this will need to happen through graduated social reforms, education, and perhaps even affirmative action, not bouts of verbal diarrhea.
5. Maoist Bahuns and Alcoholism: It used to be said of the Brown Sahibs in Colonial India that they thought of themselves as more English than the English themselves. The Maoist leaders - Prachanda and Baburam lead a party, four fifths (80%) of whose cadres are said to be of Mongoloid stock. While the high-profile duo are Bahuns by accident of birth, I have no doubt that they are more ethnic than the ethnics. Just read what they write and observe what they are doing. One fresh incident that will say volumes about the role of ethnic groups in the Maoist party: when Baburam's infamous article in Kantipur after the royal massacre urged revolt in the army, and praised Pritivi Narayan and the Shah kings, especially Birendra for their nationalist stances, politburo members with ethnic hues, namely Ram Bahadur Magar, made Baburam retract his latter statement and do a public 'atmalochana'. The fact that the ethnic clout within the Maoists is so powerful that they made a leader of Baburam's stature self-criticize over a statement that the hard-core ethnic groups don't like says it all about who actually runs the insurgency (many ethnic groups are sceptic of glorifying Prithivi Narayan's role in unifying modern Nepal, because they believe he was an expansionist who destroyed ethnic autonomies; of course there would have been no Nepal to speak of had the unification not taken place. One may complain about the process, but the product has been a fine one in my opinion). So to say that the Maoist party is dominated by Bahuns and are insensitive to demands of the ethnic communities is just to claim zero knowledge of both the Maoist uprising and the larger communist movement in Nepal. Further there is severe incongruence of policy between the Maoist central committee and their women's wing which is leading this move against alcohol sale. The former say that want to 'regulate' alcohol production and consumption, not 'ban' them. The latter have pushed for a Taliban-like ban.
|
| MLS |
Posted
on 23-Oct-01 03:15 PM
“This is just the way things are, aren’t they?” was his reply.
Here, the mongoloid looking Tashi described a character of himself. “naturally submissive” or "recessive" and the person in the govt. car as the " dominant”.
Tashi, obviously a nice guy, (social fractions other than bahun and chettries) has been "submissive" through out, rather, harbored a timid nature, which helped the so-called Bahuns to take advantage. Humble Tashi did not say, “m---“ “#$%#” but responded to the offending ? (to Dixit, another bahun(?),) gestures. This kind of acts rather boosted the morale of Bahuns and thus helped learn to become “superior”. I take this as a learned behavior and see as no faults of the brains of Bahuns. After all one has to fit to survive or prosper at the cost of others. This kind of divisions or hiarchies are natural and are the part of the rule of evolution. Rather, I see defects or lack of fighting power in other segments (Newars or janjati etc.) of the society. I (partly) blame those who obey to the gestures made for creating ruling class. They just learned to complain like losers about Bahuns, like the Marwaris are condemned for taking over the major businesses of Nepal. But the situation seems to be improving as “janjati mahasangh” has data and they are fully aware of the worsening situation. Its high time for them to educate “their” people and fight for the equality. However, it is sad to see such disproportionate social picture worsening rapidly after the democracy. Is not this kind of disparity universal even in the communist world where all are equal but some are more equal?
I honestly feel those who are at the bottom of the food chain/ the arbitrary social strata should work hard to raise their respective communities to newer elevation. I am sure they are working on it. One cannot progress in the US by complaining about the possessions of certain race and their control over the economy; one has to work hard to come to their level.
I looked at the graphs and they do not add up to 100%. Who are the rest of the people? Plus, it combined both bahun and chettries in one catagory and has produced a dramatic effect. If stratified further will be less dramatic and the skew ness will be lessened.
Just a thought from a Non-Bahun layman
MLS
|
| janjati |
Posted
on 23-Oct-01 03:57 PM
Nepal Research
Web site on Nepal and Himalayan studies
by Lhakpa Doma Salaka-Binasa Sherpa and Karl-Heinz Kraemer
Social order of the Nepali pahar area according to the muluki ain of 1854
1. tagadhari (wearers of the holy cord)
1.1. Upadhyaya Bahun
1.2. Jaisi Bahun (also: Jyotishi, Joshi) (descendants of Upadhyaya men and Bahun widows or divorced Bahun women)
1.3. Thakuri (among them also the Hamal, descendants of Bahun men and Thakuri women)
1.4. Chetri (among them the Khatri Chetri or K.C., descendants of Bahun men and Chetri or Matvali women)
1.4.1. jharra chetri ("pure" Chetri from marriages with performed kanyadan biha)
1.4.2. thimbu chetri ("mixed" Chetri from marriages without performed kanyadan biha)
1.5. Ascetic sects (Sannyasi, Giri, etc.)
1.6. Some Newar castes
2. namasinya matvali (unslavable, alcohol drinking castes)
2.1. Matvali Chetri
2.2. Ethnic groups: Gurung, Magar, some Newar castes, Sunuwar
3. masinya matvali (slavable, alcohol drinking castes)
3.1. Other ethnic groups: e.g. Chepang, Danuwar, Dimal, Hayu, Jirel, Kumhal, Limbu, Manangpa, Panchgaunle, Rai, Rajbansi, Raute, Satar, Sherpa, Tamang, Thakali, Tharu
3.2. Released slaves (Gharti)
4. pani nacalne choichito halnu naparne (castes, from which higher castes are not allowed to accept water, but whose contact does not cause ritual pollution)
4.1. Some Newar castes: Kasai, Kusle, Dhobi, Kulu
4.2. Muslims
4.3. Whites (mleccha)
5. pani nacalne choichito halnu parne (untouchable castes
5.1. Some Parbatiya castes: Kami (blacksmiths), Sarki (shoemakers), Kadara (descendants from Kami/Sarki-marriages), Damai (tailors, musicians), Sunar (goldsmiths), Gaine (Wandermusikanten), Badi (musicians)
5.2. Some Newar castes: Pore, Cyame
|
| S. Nepal |
Posted
on 23-Oct-01 05:41 PM
I do not find Mr. Trailokya Raj Aryal's views at all reasonable in his accusation of Mr. Kanak Dixit for his article. While Mr. Dixit has come up with the facts and figures, Mr. Aryal represents a stereo type arrogant views of dismissive nature. Trailokya does admit through in a round about way about the inequality mentioned in the article but he fails to elaborate his "some obvious and some not-so-obvious" reasons. I can only guess that his obvious reason being "well, that's the way it should be since you did not go to school". This is quite surprising from a person who refers to the history of blacks and whites in America but only chooses the points what is convenient to him. Had he only listed the reasons, then it would have been obvious for him to understand the crux of the issue.
Anyway, my purpose here is not to defend Kanak, as he is quite capable of doing it himself, but to express my disagreement with Trailokya's armchair intellectual type views. You can literally take his points from each paragraph and hit him with the same as he has made a fool of himself out of it. He seems to have forgotten that he was addressing outside of his own group also. His assertion that " the Bahuns are probably the most oppressed group in Nepal" cannot go down one's throat looking at the reasons he has cited for it. He justifies it further by saying that there have been no Bahun kings. He tries hard to justify the existence of racism and casteism by giving the example of the US as a newer country. So much of racism he fires that on the other hand he equates bahuns with the whites in America. Trailokya's posting is a classic example of aerogance as all he does is spit venom.
Trailokya asks Kanak Dixit to look at his own organization first. He should first know that Mr. Dixit's organization is not funded from HMG's budget or through a donor. I don't think so. With his jaundiced eyes, Trailokya sees everything being funded through the government. If the government were not running the Public Service Commission, Mr. Dixit would not have raised all the questions with the statistics. In fact, if Trailokya had asked Kanak's magazine to be compared with similar type of organizations, say for example, the NEPAL fortnightly vernacular magazine, then he would have understood more of the problems that he does not want to admit that exist. For Trailokya's information, if you leaf through the issues of NEPAL fortnightly magazine, you will find that not only the managment of it but its contributors are also limited to a certain one or two castes only, perhaps not deliberately but one might dismiss it by saying this is how the things happen in Nepal.
I resent the way Trailokya deliberately and arrogantly refused to put Tashi's correct name. Who do you mean by Timba? Youwere so full of rage that you even did not want to put his correct name. For a person like Mr. Aryal, everone must have the same type of name (given by a bahun?), otherwise he will refuse to remember that name. How insulting. That is what I meant by stereo type arrogant views and jaundiced eyes. Trailokya accuses those who are on the side of equality while trying to establish his own superemcy on what??
Let me give this guy a bit of piece of my mind. If you want to be a type of bahun that you have expresssed in here, your best interest will be served by wishing at least, if not fighting for it, for an equal status for all. There are many Nepalis in Nepal and outside who are aware of the ethinc problem but they do not want to say anything about it. For many, the status quo means they can continue to take the benefits of it. But for how long?? It is not a question of conflict between bahuns and other ethnic groups, it is not a war between one party vs. other, but it is a reality that we have to face it and sooner we address it the better it is.
Let's not get into trivial of why people other than bahuns do not eat katto. Your argument is simply laughable. You seem to think that bahuns are hated and blamed for all ills of Nepal. I do not think so. It is just your guily conscience. No bahuns with moderate views, and I know there are many, will agree with you.
As a Nepali, I feel proud to say that we have visionary persons like Kanak Dixit and Dor Bahadur Bistha. It would be wrong to ignore the ethnic problems as Nepal appears to be sitting on a power keg of ethnic problem. One can see the seed of it spread in the Maoists' demands. I am not being an alarmist but the ethnic problem must be addressed before it is too late. The much talked about hype on national integration cannot come to fruition with the views like Trailokya's. Nobody is hating bahuns per se but how can we change the graph (that Kanak has presented in his artilce) to bring equality is the real issue that needs to be addressed.
The question is not if the Nepali Times is brave enough to publish Mr. Aryal's views as he challenges it in his posting. the real question is whether Mr. Aryal type person can willingly admit the country's problems and work towards addressing them. Is Mr. Aryal brave enough to accept the problem?
I would, of course, be happy to debate it further if Mr. Aryal comes back with his views.
Thanks.
S. Nepal
|
| Nepali |
Posted
on 23-Oct-01 11:49 PM
On Bahuns,
I think a quick look at Lionel Caplan's book "Land Tenure and social change in East Nepal will be eye opener on the question of Bahun and janajati relation. It shows with historical analysis how the Bahuns who migrated to east nepal slowly took over the kipat land of the Limbus and Rais. This was done by very cunning method, that is why the Bahuns have a reputation of cunning 'batho' among the janajati people. Now after 200 years, the Bahuns have the best khet land and the janajatis and others have the worst dry pakho.
that is bahunbad from a janajati perspective
Jai Nepal!
|
| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 24-Oct-01 08:37 AM
Dear all,
Thank you for sharing your views on the topic. I am glad that this discussion isn't getting personal and ugly. And I don't regert either being a bahun or writing all those to Kanak.
Now to Mr. S Nepal jyu,
Mr. Nepal, first of all, I am not the kind of armchair intellectual that you have accused me of. I honestly think that bahuns are the most oppressed and most hated group in Nepal. Before going on with the lok sewa data and all this and that you see at the surface level, imagine tehse two scenarios:
Scenario 1: A poor bahun from Syangja comes to Kathmandu and after running here and there, finds a job as a chule-bahun at a sarkari-hakimko-ghar. Then after 2-3 years as a chule bahun at that hakim's ghar, he finally manages to get a peon's job at that hakim's office. Then he brings his wife to Kathmandu. His wife too works at the same house. Then after two-four years, he moves out to his own rented-place, brings his kids from the village. To pay for the children's education, he borrows money from his sanchaya kosh account or rom money lenders and opens a small shop where his wife works as a full time employee.
Scenario 2: Another poor non-bahun comes to kathmandu seeking a better future. He too after running here and there, learns to either drive cabs/tempos or weave galiacha, and starts earning atleast 300-400/day. At nights, he is seen at bhattis/brothels spending all that he makes during the day. I am not saying bahuns are exception, but if you go survey the bhattis/brothels in Kathmandu, you are likely to find non-bahuns more. And this is a fact. And if you don't believe me, let me know the next time you are in Nepal, I'll be more than happy to take you on a study tour of bhattis/brothels in kathmandu.
Now, who do you think is responsible for deshko-bigrido-paristhiti? That poor bahun who worked slowly to his way up, or the one who is seen at Bhatti/brothels?
According to census data, bahuns constitute around 12-15% of the total population which means we are a minority here. So, how is it possible that a minority group makes rules/regulations etc for the majority 85-88%? OK, the LOK Sewa's data show that bahuns make most of the HMG employees, but, my question is: What percentage of bahuns has the decison making authority? HMG has all levels, it ranges from peon-niji sahayaks to the hakims/minsiters to Sachibs and Mantris. I will be really happy if Kanak or Mr Nepal jyu can break this data down and tell me hey, this percentage of bahuns are peons, this persentage are subbas, this percentage are khardars, ditthas etc and this percentage of bahuns are achibs, sakha adhikrit and so on. And also tell me, at which point which bahun official made it mandatory for everyone in Nepal to speak nepali or follow bahun's culture. Isn't it sad to read even the so-called intellectuals/sociologists in Nepal blame bahuns , who only make 12-15% of the total population, for everything that goes wrong in Nepal from the loss of ethnic languages to Nepal's underdevelopment to loss of nepali nationalism to almost everything imaginable.
Now, not all bahun familes in nepal were lucky enough to get birtas from Chandra Shumser for writing that he was the incarnation of Lord Pashupatinath himself[If you look at the family background of some intellectuals/journalists, you will be very SURPRISED]. Those who are trying to portray themselves as liberal and good bahuns and those who are never tired of blaming other bahun and their families as feudal, expoliting and what not, should look at the mirror first.
I dobn't deny that some bahun families exploited the state's recsources but weren't tehre newars and otehr groups who too got their share of pie during the rana-panchayat-democracy era? So, ghush khayo bahunele... nepali padhna lagayo bahunle..yo garyo bahunle.. tyo garyo bahunle... so bash bahuns. I don't think I can agree with this attitude. When pseudo-intellectuals like Dor bahadur Bishta (BTW, he never got a formal anthropology training) writes a biased book, then he becomes a legend. When CK LAL writes in his almost-every-piece that he is anti-bahun, noone dares to raise a fingure at him for being a racist. Now, when Kanak writes an article to sell his newspaper to other ethnic-tribes, and to portray himself as a liberal, oho-kasto-gyani-bahun, he too becomes the best journalist we have. Come on, why should I believe in what Kanak writes based on lok sewa aayog ko data? Why not publish data on which group in nepal controls most of the money? Because we all know, money is power these days, so its not the poor bahuns who work as a subbas/khardars who are responsible for bahunbaad and what not, people who have MONEY who are outside of the lok-sewa data.
Another point: I compared the situation in nepal with that of the US because it made sense. If you can't blame every white on the street for the racial problem in the US, then going by that same logic, you can't blame every bahun in Nepal for everything that goes on in nepal.
And I really did forget the name of kanak's friend, and I hope, Mr Timba isn't upset with me. But, Mr Nepal, the example kanak provided just did not make any sense, atleast to me. When you have the starting of any article with the example like that, you know its a biased piece and the writer isn't being impartial. I mean, I don't doubt the incident Kanak mentioned, but, why did Kanak fail to mention other incidents involving non-bahuns humiliating bahuns in public?
And happy dashain to you all (i sicnerely hope that this doesn't get misinterpreted as spreading bahun-baad)
Trailokya Aryal
|
| Sunakhari |
Posted
on 24-Oct-01 10:34 AM
Yes there are some "sudhreka bahuns" ! I have come across quite a few myself!
One shouldn't generalize as generalizing is racism, caste-ism whatever...BUT we did grow up with some social stigmas and it is mighty difficult to overcome those.
Such as...Bahun justo chattu, kami-damai ko behura, kali naramri (this was used often in my case :), who says we don't have color discrimination?) and so on and so forth.
I have no idea if this relates in any way to what you guys are talking about but thought I'd show myself up after all these days of not "contributing" to the discussions.
Cheers
|
| NK |
Posted
on 24-Oct-01 10:55 AM
I also wanted to say something then i realized wait a minute 'do i have to read kanak's article first?' Then there is this lengthy counterpoint and point. Because of my short attention span I just skipped it. If I get it correct T. is mad becasue of bahun bashing and from somebody lvenerable like kanak dixit.
my contribution other than just stating the obvious? well, we always bash each other. but when i do my very unscientific survey then i think bahun are the least opressed jati in nepal. I think somebody was saying how come bahun are over represented? Well, just like chettris being the "warrior class" they are encouraged to go to the military or police force. Bahuns being the "learned class" the family empasize on excel in studies. I know there are a lot of chettris in academia and in visible post but like i said this is my pure unscientific observation. So if you look around you will a lot of bahununs writing, ruling, and also yes, destroying (thinking of THAT comrade). so people if you wanna see oppressed go to charaudi and see how chapang are oppressed and who are the perpetators? Guess?
|
| NK |
Posted
on 24-Oct-01 10:55 AM
I also wanted to say something then i realized wait a minute 'do i have to read kanak's article first?' Then there is this lengthy counterpoint and point. Because of my short attention span I just skipped it. If I get it correct T. is mad becasue of bahun bashing and from somebody lvenerable like kanak dixit.
my contribution other than just stating the obvious? well, we always bash each other. but when i do my very unscientific survey then i think bahun are the least opressed jati in nepal. I think somebody was saying how come bahun are over represented? Well, just like chettris being the
|
| NK |
Posted
on 24-Oct-01 10:58 AM
I also wanted to say something then i realized wait a minute 'do i have to read kanak's article first?' Then there is this lengthy counterpoint and point. Because of my short attention span I just skipped it. If I get it correct T. is mad becasue of bahun bashing and from somebody lvenerable like kanak dixit.
my contribution other than just stating the obvious? well, we always bash each other. but when i do my very unscientific survey then i think bahun are the least opressed jati in nepal. I think somebody was saying how come bahun are over represented? Well, just like chettris being the "warrior class" they are encouraged to go to the military or police force. Bahuns being the "learned class" the family empasize on excel in studies. I know there are a lot of chettris in academia and in visible post but like i said this is my pure unscientific observation. So if you look around you will a lot of bahununs writing, ruling, and also yes, destroying (thinking of THAT comrade). so people if you wanna see oppressed go to charaudi and see how chapang are oppressed and who are the perpetators? Guess?
Sorry about multiple posting. ke garne? i like to see my name again and again ;)
|
| smp |
Posted
on 24-Oct-01 11:20 AM
Mr Aryal,
I am not arguing for or against the argument that this or that ethnic group in Nepal is subjugating others. I just wanted to point out that like Mr Dixit whose example you question the sensibility of, you also start your latest response with a similar example. Neither your example nor your citing that example made sense to me. The cook could have been a dishwasher at a restaurant and of some other ethnic background but slowly upwardly mobile and the brothel/pub venturing driver could have been a person of some other occupation but a Brahmin. At least Mr Dixit claims that what he cites is an actual occurence concerning his friend. Yours is a made up example that generalizes.
But like you, I would be interested in seeing the numbers and unlike you or Mr Dixit, I will wait to analyze those numbers that I believe to be trustworthy before I form my opinions this way or that way.
And as NK points out, there isn't a doubt that oppresion exists in Nepal. I think it is relatively easy to point out the oppresees. Pointing the fingers at the oppresors is an entirely different matter.
SMP
|
| praja |
Posted
on 24-Oct-01 11:52 AM
TA jee,
Read "Racial Discrimination toward the Indigenous Peoples in Nepal"
http://www.mtnforum.org/resources/library/lawom01a.htm
Its a good one. You will enjoy it.
I don't know that chepang are known as praja cause never heard that chepang calling themselves as praja. Praja is not chepang's word. it is khasa word.
|
| Dwarika |
Posted
on 24-Oct-01 02:12 PM
Very interesting!!
My question - how did Mr Dixit know that Mr Bureaucrat was a brahmin in the first place? By this gentleman's feature - I presume. Looks can be deceiving. I am a brahmin but I look very Asian (oriental).
Actually, as a country, with an ever increasing and educated middle class, I see descrimination in all facets (gender, caste, religion, etc) diminishing. And, I have also noticed changes coming in spurts where one group seems to lead the way and others within that group follow for example since the '50's until early '80s, most of the students that came to the US were from St Xavier's. Now, this has changed. Similarly, after Prajatantra upto mid eighties, most of the police chiefs (IGP's) were Thapa-Magars, Rana-Magar, Lama etc. I can say the same thing with Royal Nepal Army - before it used to be Rana/Shah club but now, you can find people of different castes in the upper echelons. It may not be to the degree that we would like to see but it is getting there.
I don't think it is right to blame bahuns for the lack of representations of other groups when we know that things are done in our country based on who you know rather than based on caste association.
Dwarika
|
| Sangey |
Posted
on 24-Oct-01 05:47 PM
Trailokya,
What a load of crock you have just spewed in this discussion thread.
As for your example, poor Bahun who perseveres and drunkard Janajati... oh pllleeaaase. Perhaps that non-Bahun is in the Bhatti because he cannot afford to buy bottles of Red Label that Bahuns can with their "ghoosh khanu paune jagir."
Well, since you raised the topic of drinking alcohol, believe it or not, these days in Kathmandu, you see more Bahuns drinking alcohol and playing Kowra than any other clans. Forget about Nepal, even here in Amrika, in this little Nepali community that I am part of, we have Rai, Gurung, Magar, Tamang, Newar, Chettri, Bahun and Sunuwar. And lo and behold, the only two who drink alcoho in social gatherings are Bahuns. Nothing wrong with that, it's their life, their taste, their money, why shouldn't they drink. But do you see my point? Now you may say that is an exception. Then I will say with even more ardor, you are stereotyping us Janajatis. And you are unfair! So cruelly unfair!!
Yes, drinking is in our blood because that's where we get most of our carbohydrate from. Jaadh ra makai nakhai kana goru jotne takat aundaina. And we need that carbohydrate to plough the steep terraces to make our ends meet. Nobody calls us Baajey and gives us Dakshina. We actually have to work. And we drink. But that does not mean we spend all our money in Bhattis and hindering Desh ko Bikash.
Come to think of, you know how everybody talks about the rampant corruption in Nepalese government. Heeyyyy... now it makes sense. Since Bahuns pretty much have monopoly in that sector... put the two and two together. Guess who is responsible for Desh ko bigrando sthiti.
The reason Janajatis are low in socio-economic heirarchy of Nepal is because of the uneven playing field. Look at Darjeeling, you will see Janajatis in higher rung of the ladder. Why? Because the opportunities are equally available.
Visit Dharan. The areas that are most developed in that town is where Ex-Gurkhas Janajatis live. They have pooled their own pension fund and made the tarred road, drainage system, beautiful chowk, and the whole place is clean. And not a single penny from the government was used. Now go to where Bahuns live, that part of Dharan is as dirty and chaotic as it used to be 20 years ago. And not because they have lesser opportunities and wealth, but because everytime the government money (yes, my tax money) gets allocated, one Bahun and his cronies gobble it up. I remember a British officer once said that as long as Bahuns have control of Nepal, she will remain under-developed.
Now before you go Jesse Helms on me, do you really think a Sherpa kid has the equal chances to further himself in today's Sarkari Nokuri as a Bahun kid? Of course the latter has the better chance because he is more likely to have connections. I hated it when I had to go through all the rigors of getting driving license while my Bahun neighbor got his delivered at home the next day without even attending a written test because he had an uncle in Hanumaan Dhoka.
Here's a good anecdote. The census taker, a Bahun, came to our village. He came and had tea with Pradhan Pancha, another Bahun, talked for an hour and went away. No, he did not even come down to the haat bazaar to ask us questions. Next we know we are all listed as Hindus. While we celebrate Hindu festivals, our main religion is still Buddhism and Shamanism. The fact that was totally ignored. Talk about religious suppression. When somebody says Nepal is Ek matra Hindu rajya, lot of us say Bull Shit. Now, understandably, lots of Janajatis do not celebrate Dashain.
Yes, yes, yes. There are good Bahuns and bad Janajatis. I do not mean to lump everybody together, but my arguments might've sounded as such. I apologize, I just needed to make a point. But, that point has to be noted. More and more Janajatis are becoming aware of them getting the short end of the stick time and again. Government needs to understand and amend the situation. There has to be a fair representation. Otherwise, a civil war can be a distinct possibility.
Walk a mile in my shoes, Bandhu Trailokya, and you will know how much more difficult life is for us Janajatis in Nepal.
|
| nepalikt |
Posted
on 24-Oct-01 10:51 PM
I agree with the revious poster, this business Mr.Aryal brought up of drinking, it really is a big load of crap.
And this chule bahun business.... what is that about? Look at the reality again and really, try on a different pair of glasses. A different version of the scenario woulf go something like this:
SCENARIO 1.
A poor bahun from Syangja comes to Kathmandu and after running here and
there, finds a job as a chule-bahun at a sarkari-hakimko-ghar.HE GET A JOB BECAUSE HE IS A BRAHMIN. Then after 2-3 years as a chule bahun at that hakim's ghar, he finally manages to get a peon's job - A SECURE JOB THAT WILL PAY A MONTHLY SALARY- A SARKARI JAGIR FROM WHICH ONE CANNOT GET FIRED - at that hakim's office. Then he brings his wife to Kathmandu. His wife too works at the same house. Then after two-four years, he moves out to his own rented-place, brings his kids from the village. To pay for the children's
education, he borrows money from his sanchaya kosh account HE HAS A SANCHYAKOSH ACCOUNT or from money lenders A MONEY LENDER WILL LEND HIM BECAUSE HE IS A SARKARI EMPLOYEE ANDMOREIMPORTANTLY HE IS A BAHUN and opens a small shop where his wife works as a full time employee.
SCENARIO 2:
A poor janjati (please don't use non-bahun it is offensive - people are something first before being a not-something), kathmandu seeking a better future. He too
after running here and there, and cannot find anyone to give him a job because he can't speak the language too well and because he is "ekohore" Jantati type. He becomes a thela gada man or an occasional dharke at Kalimati because he can lift loads. He makes about Rs.100 to 150 a day. Since he has to pay for his own food and lodging, he spends most of his money on that and has no savings. Once in a while, to numb his physican pain he goes to a bhattis. So friggin what!!
Anyhow, he tries to save money by moving in with a bunch of other guys from his village and because he lives in a small room with all these other guys in terribly congested conditions, he contracts TB and dies leaving his wife a widow and children orphans.
As they say, denial is the first sign of guilt.
Nepal,like most countries in the world, has sever social, cultural and political problems. The statement that Bahun are the most oppressed is similar to what I hear here once in a while - reverse racism and that whites are the most oppressed. Get real. We are talking not about personal prejudices, but systemic oppressions, insitutionalized oppression. The fact that you are a Bahun means you are privileged - you most likely read - you speak the language (which is currency in itself), you have access to power even if in yourself you don't have power. And in society like ours, that goes a long long way.
I know it is pointless to write, other than of course for my pure enjoyment, because there s no changing the mind of someone who says that "Bahun are the most oppressed". Good luck to you Trailokya ji. I hope you are enjoying feeling oppressed and persecuted....
|
| Sunakhari |
Posted
on 25-Oct-01 09:14 AM
Sangey, hats off to your POVs.
I fully agree with many of them.
First and foremost, let me apologize in advance for my somewhat rusty Nepali because I thought JANAJATI means the general public hence incorporating the mass. Would that not include the Bahuns as well. Please correct me if I am wrong.
And before you think I'm bahun bashing - I could not because I tend to be one of those few (getting bigger by the number) who has 50% bahun blood although not with a bahun surname (but believe me, my bahun connections have worked pretty well in the past). Not that I'm incompetent but one has to pull these strings if one wants to go ahead...hahaha! and my surname was definitely not making heads turn!
so PLEASE spare me that crap!
Trailokya, I am surprised that you would think that the rest of the population apart from Bahuns would mostly be drunkards. Where do you get your statistics from? How dare you make that statement when you know very well how "things" have changed. You can find an equally drunk bahun than you can find a magar.
How could insinuate that people other than bahuns don't work hard?
You have said there is bahun bashing that goes on but from what I can derive from your postings, you are bashing other people as well. So how could you ask for justification?
Lastly but not the least, in fact I think you would also fit into this category "I also resent Mr Dixit like-wallahs, padhe-lekheka murkha bahun haroo-ko view. "
ps you have compared the US to Nepal in terms of racism etc. Look at who heads the US, the MAJORITY are whites. Look at any International Company, majority of them are headed by whites. And why shouldn't they?? They are the most educated, the most connected, the most everything....and WHY? because there was a time not so long ago when they had oppressed the blacks.
SUNAKHARI
|
| janjati |
Posted
on 25-Oct-01 11:45 AM
This is a serious matter and all the nepalis should be concerned. Lets stop pointing fingers with each other. We need to resolve this issue wisely without harming khasas and janjatis. If we all nepalis don't start now then there could be a big problem bigger than maobadi. So being a nepali I request all of you to think rationally and work together.
Happy Bijaya Dasami and Happy Udhowli and Uvhauli.........
|
| S. Nepali |
Posted
on 25-Oct-01 02:22 PM
Dear Trailokyaji,
Much has already been said in response to your two postings. So, I will try to be brief. I get the feeling that your main concern is why the hatred towards bahuns. However, you do not want to listen to the reasons given to you or available around you. You still believe that the bahuns are the most oppressed in Nepal. In fact, you will find the answers to your quesion in the two scenarios you presented. You still continue to grudge that Kanak concocted the facts and figures to sell his newspapers. You even have the nerves to say that Dor Bahadur Bistha did not have a formal training in anthropology. Why did you then not come up with your own facts and fitures to challenge his writing? Instead, you have taken the convenient way to criticize all. If you were to ask for formal training, why not look for many "nyayadhishs" in the judicial system who had no formal training in law. I know many of them had just 11class pass or some degree in Sanskrit or a degree procured from an Indian university. You mean they all delivered bogus judgement? One can only imagine the consequences of such act.
Let me tell you this. The janajati problem is real whether or not you accept it. I have lived in the villages as well as in Kathmandu. The furstation among the janajati is so high that it could flare up anytime. You go to the government offices and hardly anything get done unless you have someone known to you there. The Janajatis have no one.
I have experienced the same many times dealing with the HMG offices. The moment they see a mongoloid feature, or a last name that indicates an ethnic group, the customs at the airport behave as if all are all thieves. The immigration is even worse. Whereas a bahun gets a different treatment. What do you think of it when one has to face such humilation everyday.
If bahuns are in the majority in the adminintrative and policy making body, who do you think we should blame for the bad governance and bad policy? Do we still say they are poor chule bahuns therefore give them a break! People have said that all those land belonging to Janajatis that have been grabbed by others in the last 40 years need to be returned to Janajatis. I am not sure I will go that far but this is the pulse of the janajatis.
If not today, the rage from the ethnic groups will come tomorrow in one form or the other. I have been to the corridors of HMG offfices. It stinks with urine, ghoosh, inefficiency and nepotism at unmeasurable height.
All we, including people like Kanak, Dor Bahadur Bistha, and there are many other reasonable people too within bahuns, are saying is let us not wait for the disaster to take place. Let us do something today to rectify the grave mistakes that are made. There is still time.
Lastly, Trailokyaji, I do give you some marks for speaking your mind out. I know there are some fence sitters somewhere out there who do not want to participate in it. It is also apparent that many people who are aroused to hit the keyboard with their reaction even on a trivial matter are just staying away from saying anything on this serious matter. Fence sitters, please give your views. You cannot be neutral on this issue of ethnic inequality.
Thank you.
S. Nepali
|
| sunakhari |
Posted
on 25-Oct-01 02:52 PM
To everyone who are using the term MONGOLOID. Please, as a fellow Nepali (especially because you are one) REFRAIN from using that term.
It is a derogatory term that was used for children being born with slight facial deformations, and other complications and some ignorant people in the west thought those children looked Mongolian!!!
I have been told that term has now been replaced by another more politically correct one.
Thanks
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 25-Oct-01 02:59 PM
S. Nepa wrote:
>[Trailokya] still continue
>to grudge that Kanak concocted the facts and
>figures to sell his newspapers.
I hope Kanak visits this forum, and shares his perspectives
in detail. I have already forwarded this entire thread to him.
Only he will be best positioned to say what he said in his
article.
>You even
>have the nerves to say that Dor Bahadur
>Bistha did not have a formal training in
>anthropology.
As a matter of fact, Trailokya is right on this
one.
Bista has travelled far and wide in Nepal, and,
until a few years ago, when challenged to defend
his views (as I once did to him in a presentation in Kathmandu),
he would say something like: "I know
this to be true because I have travelled to X Y Z
places and I have seen it."
Bista is entitled to his way of responding to criticisms of his
views, but whatever one calls it, it does not strike me as an
academic, intellectually sound defense.
In 1991, there was this issue of Himal in which Anup Pahari, then
a PhD candidate in sociology at the University of Wisconsin, delivered
a devastating critique of Bista's book, pretty much tearing apart
Bista's central claim.
Bista's book, BTW, is admired more in Nepal by foreign donor-wallahs
looking for easy answers to Nepal's complex problems than by
serious bahun and non-bahun academics and researchers.
I have taken the liberty to forward this entire thread to two more people:
Mahendra Lawoti at the University of Pittsburg. Mahendra has done some
serious thinking on this issue, and to Professor Krishna Bhattachan at TU.
Let us hope that they will join us here and share their views.
Thanks and kudos to Trailokya for being brave enough to use his own name
to tackle this complex, vexing and emotionally charged issue.
oohi
ashu
ktm, nepal
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| Observer |
Posted
on 25-Oct-01 03:08 PM
I agree with Mr Dixit that discrimination exists in our country. I also believe that reverse discrimination exists as well. However, I disagree with Mr Dixit that one particular caste is responsible for all of this. I see this as a failure of the existing system and we all are part of this.
Therefore, we the educated in the country as well as those living abroad must overcome this inequitability in our society. So, far I only see reiteration of this problem. I would like all those that have posted their views to suggest solutions.
Sangey gave a good example of Dharan where people operated out of the existing system and built something that is well thought out and planned.
Just an observation.
Observer
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| Lisa |
Posted
on 25-Oct-01 03:12 PM
All of you still haven't learned your lessons. Have you. Who cares...if you are bahun or other jatil. We are all the same. ANd let's not defend ourselves for what we became coincidently. We could have been Tamang or Sherpa or Cheetri or anyhting or maybe African American. Same goes for those who constantly fight "intelectually" over religion. It is really hard for me to defend anyone even though i'm a bahun. Yes bahuns may like bribes. But my dad who is also a bahun doesn't even like to hurt anyone. he would rather give something than take something from someone without their consent. let's not defend any perpetrators. They are all losers. You know what i hate the most. Seeing these perpatrators kids, full of conceit for their parents wealth. thinking that they are better than everyone. Full of pride. Well maybe we should teach them a lesson by caring less about who their father is. Telling you the truth if my father or my mother embezzled money. I wouldn't even look at their face.
I don't have time to read all that you have wrote. But the main point i gathered was that one was defending bahuns and others were charging bahuns for doing something. Another thing, I just wanted to improve my writing skills so i typed whatevr i typed above.
Peace
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| MLS |
Posted
on 25-Oct-01 03:28 PM
Can anybody come up with or suggest any credible/ reliable/ plausible/ tangible /measurable slolution for the existing disparity and make Nepal an ideal country??
I liked the way Lisa saying " my dad who is also a bahun..." as if she is not!
MLS
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| Janjati |
Posted
on 25-Oct-01 03:54 PM
Following link is Mahendra Lawoti's work about racial discrimination in Nepal.
http://www.mtnforum.org/resources/library/lawom01a.htm
Necessary Steps to be initiated for Eliminating of Racial Discrimination Steps to be taken by the Government
Offer apology for past discrimination, internal colonization and cultural imperialism
Declare the Nepali state as secular or multi-religious
Ratify the ILO Convention 169
Implement the International Human Rights Instruments ratified by Nepal such as Minority Rights Declarations, Universal Human Rights Declaration and so on in spirit and word
Adopt accommodative and power sharing political institutions
Treat all native languages equally
Recognize customary practices of Indigenous Peoples
Recognize right to traditional homeland of Indigenous Peoples
Ensure equal distribution and access to state and societal resources
Promote and preserve Indigenous Peoples/ nationalities culture, language and tradition
Establish Academy of Indigenous Peoples/ nationalities to preserve and promote their culture
Initiate proportionate affirmative action policies for Indigenous Peoples/ nationalities
Ensure protection of minority rights constitutionally
Declare public holidays on Indigenous Peoples/ nationalities' festival
Include Indigenous Peoples and nationalities' symbols in the 'national' symbols and heroes' lists
Transmit radio programs in native languages
Initiate education in native languages
Eliminate compulsory Sanskrit in schools
Remove restriction on registration of political parties based on ethnicity, caste and gender
Take scientific census of different Indigenous Peoples, their languages, traditions and culture
Include positive description of Indigenous Peoples in school texts
Initiate public policies targeted specifically at socio-economic promotion of Indigenous Peoples
Establish a Commission on Indigenous Peoples, composed of Indigenous Peoples
Establish a media network of Indigenous Peoples
Legislate laws for empowerment of Indigenous Peoples and implement those that exist
Implement the directive principle of the Constitution that deals with nationalities
Source http://www.mtnforum.org/resources/library/lawom01a.htm by Mahendra Lawoti
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 25-Oct-01 06:49 PM
Ashu:
Some months ago, I read an article by Krishna Bhattachan in Kantipur in which
he wrote something like this: the increase [in the past 200 hundred years] of
Janajaati participation in civil service in Nepal has been from 0.x percent to
0.x+0.y( the total still <<1.0) percent.So, if this ratio continues, when will the
janajaati participation be significant? Or at least commensurate with their
population?
Valid reasoning, I think, even when you discount the subterfuges of histogram
equalization technique (Why he used 200 years?). If he comes here, I would love
to read his postings. He is a respected intellectual on this issue.
When you read all these postings here,it is obvious even educated janajaati people
also feel that they are being suppressed. Irrespective of whether I agree on
that or not, it gives me one idea: that this issue can be incendiary in future. Just
like enormity of influence of issues raised by Maoists couldn't be gauged on time,
and the nation has to suffer a lot, this Janajaati issue may figure recurrently in
future, and may visit us in the shape of insurgency or whatever.So, we must
address this issue as soon as possible.
However, I regret a few attempts by some radical elements within Janajaati to
galvanize their fellow citizens with concocted attempts. For example: I had this
gentleman friend Indra Jit Lama,currently a teacher in AVM, who a few years ago
complained with me that 'anti-Dashain movement' had been too forceful within his
community."As long as I remember," He said to me, "Nobody forced me to
celebrate Dashain.So, why they force me not to celebrate it?" There is another
case I remember in Pokhara. They were organizing a fundraiser for a temple and a
Janajaati lady was giving one of the highest amounts of money.I think a lot of
Janajaati are really religious (Hindu).In Nepal, Hindus (like my mom and dad)
equally and jealously follow Buddha.The example of census worker given earlier in
one posting has more to do with overall lazy nature of such workers, rather than
Hindu machination to make Nepal a Hindu majority nation.
I have found Nepal's priests very pliant. They never opposed the banning of
inveterate Hindu traditions, like Sati Pratha, polygamy etc.., and they also didn't
oppose the entry of lower caste into temples. Neither do they oppose the entry
of Janajaati in temple.So, I don't think we can't sort this problem out.
We must ask for meritocracy. Those Janajaati who go to schools should also
have equal chance to get job and be promoted. We must also remember that there
are some fields where Bahuns are actually not preferred. Like Royal Nepalese
army, British Army and other security agencies.To make things equitable, may
be we need to reconsider (untold) rules governing such agencies also.
And finally to Kanak Dixit case: (Since we know Madan Puraskar Guthi and some
others are controlled by Dixits::) How many Madan Puraskar are given to Janajaati
people? How many students sent to medical college in Calcutta are from Janajaati
people? How may teachers and student in Rato Bangala are from Janajati? How many people working in Himal Media are from Janajaati? It is easy to preach
others, and berate the government only, isn't it? I have enormous respect for
Mr Dixit, but what I am trying to pinpoint is that not everywhere and everybody is
using emographic proportion to share the resources they are controlling.You can
start right from your place to change this pro-high-caste attitude.
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