| Username |
Post |
| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 05-Nov-01 02:53 PM
Hi all,
I still can't figure out why some of my messages make it to the board and some just get lost. However, i was lucky enough to have my message bounced back to my email, rather than lossing the whole thing.. so, here's on indian ownership and I sincerely hope that this makes it to the board. For those of you not intereested in all this computer jargon, just scroll down for the message.
Still trying to solve the unsolved mystery...
Here's what i got
The original message was received at Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:50:18 -0800 (PST)
from [204.117.2.195]
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
(reason: 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown)
----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to shemail.netscape.com.:
>>> RCPT To:
<<< 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown
550 5.1.1 ... User unknown
Reporting-MTA: dns; xwing.aoltw.net
Received-From-MTA: DNS; [204.117.2.195]
Arrival-Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:50:18 -0800 (PST)
Final-Recipient: RFC822; sn@netscape.com
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.1
Remote-MTA: DNS; shemail.netscape.com
Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown
Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:50:20 -0800 (PST)
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Subject :
re: Who's afraid of Indian ownership?
Date :
Mon, 05 Nov 2001 14:43:20 -0500
Dear all,
I DISAGREEE with ashu dai.
As far as I understand, media is a very powerful force. It is not only about
competition, reporting this and that, but also about promoting NATIONALISM. I
am sure that ashu dai in his Harvard days has learned some European History and
how the print media helped in spreading nationalism across europe.
I strongly resent the idea of foreign investment in nepali media because they
will be publishing what the investors' want, not what the raeders want. That's
the way to be in business, and this indian venture will prove very disastrous
for nepal. I don't know mych about this whole deal, but as far as I know, the
investors are rich enough not to care whetehr the newspaper does well or not,
all they care about is that their message get across. Even the Indian government
does not allow foreigners to invest on newspapers/media, then why should we when
our economic liberalization model is a xerox copy of the indian policy?
And I don't see why ashu dai likes to call Pratush Wanta a sensible historian?
based on his pieces that I have read so far, i don't find him any different than
other regular columnist of TKP. His piececs are not very different than that of
CK LAL in analysis. So, I don't see why I or otehr sensible nepalis should base
their judgement on what pratyush/dixit bros say and don't say.
Feel free to disagree
PS-Not getting personal here, but... for everyone who thinks Pratyush a sensible
historian, here's a little fact. I remember him sending a letter to the editor
of TKP for publishing an article by a rookie. And the editors' reply was, "hey,
we published your articles when you were a rookie and you would still be a
rookie if we hadn't published your articles". So, Praytusha is a
made-intellectual, not a real intellectual and definatley not a sensible
historian.
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 06-Nov-01 04:37 AM
Trailokya wrote:
>I DISAGREEE with ashu dai.
Disagreements are always welcome!!
Disagreeing with one another with reasons is
the best way to learn from one another in this
peer-to-peer (P2P) Web site called gbnc.org.
>As far as I understand, media is a very
>powerful force.
Sure, it's a powerful force.
But powerful force for what?
Having power is one thing, but having influence is another.
Let me explain:
Gorkhapatra and The Rising Nepal, solidly backed by the Nepali government,
are certainly more powerful newspapers (in terms of perks and protection enjoyed!) than Kantipur and the rest of the private-sector newspapers.
But as far as the public at large is concerned, those newspapers'
credibility and influence are almost negligible.
> It is not only about
>competition, reporting this and that, but
>also about promoting NATIONALISM.
Sure, when you have access to ONLY ONE form of media and
to no other, then, you are likely to be influenced/brainwashed
by an overexposure to that media.
(Aside: In Kathmandu, I meet these fifty-year-old Marxists in Kathmandu who grew up in the '60s and the '70s listening ONLY to Radio Moscow and/or
Radio Peking, and their worldviews in 2001 are caught, as it were, in a
time-warp!! But that's another story.)
An example of only one form of media to promote nationalism
would be: Saddam Hussein's using his own media to "promote" so-called
Iraqi nationalism in Baghdad by NOT allowing free choices re: media
selections.
But in a noisy, pulsating democracy like ours where you have, BY DEFINITION,
CHOICES, PLURALITY and all that in terms of media, then you are bound to see/hear/understand different versions of the same thing, you are bound to compare and constrast things, you are bound to NOT believe everything you hear or everything that's printed, and you are bound to use, sooner or later, your own judgment to decide what you want to believe . . . All this, I would argue, is a DAMN GOOD THING for the continuing vitality of our democracy.
And so, in such an OPEN, COMPETITIVE system, it would be pretty difficult to promote ONLY ONE idea as though it were the sole truth.
As such, coming to the issue at hand, EVEN for pro-India newspapers in Nepal,
it would be very hard to keep on promoting their that view in Nepal WITHOUT their being solidly and OPENLY challenged -- both editorially and financially -- by their able competitors.
>I strongly resent the idea of foreign
>investment in nepali media because they
>will be publishing what the investors' want,
>not what the raeders want.
Market ko logic would dictate that the investors, wanting profit, would
want to keep -- by way of their management -- two PAYING groups happy: subscribers and advertizers.
And so, it's NOT the investors who are going to determine the success of the newspaper. They are, like investors anywhere on the planet, ARE TAKING A
RISK with their own money.
And in Nepal, given how competitive the private sector media businesses are,
it's unlikely that one can make money in a newspaper business by choosing to
ALIENATE Nepali subscribers and Nepali advertizers!!
>I don't know mych about this
>whole deal, but as far as I know, the
>investors are rich enough not to care
>whetehr the newspaper does well or not,
>all they care about is that their message
>get across.
First, no private investor, Nepalis, Indians or who ever else, in the world
wants to throw good money after a loss-making business.
Second, BECAUSE of our open, competitive media businesses, no form of
media has a MONOPOLY on getting any message across to anyone. Because of competition, every message that this new newspaper will be challenged by its competitors, and that's the way it should be!!
>Even the Indian government
>does not allow foreigners to invest on
>newspapers/media,
Indian government is RECONSIDERING its policies to allow foreigners to invest in its print daily newspaper sector, especially after seeing that foreign involvement
in the Satellite TV and magazines (ever read the Indian Cosmopolitan or Elle?) sectors hasn't reallyt harmed Indian interests. The indian debate on this issue is
a lot more lively. Also, the editor of India's influential magazine, INDIA TODAY, Arun Poori is on record for saying that he welcomes foreign investors in all sectors of the media.
> then why should we when
>our economic liberalization model is a xerox
>copy of the indian policy?
Because Nepal needs to attract those with money so that:
we can create job opportunities for Nepalis in Nepal.
>And I don't see why ashu dai likes to call
>Pratush Wanta a sensible historian?
>based on his pieces that I have read so far,
>i don't find him any different than
>other regular columnist of TKP.
I have known Pratyoush for 13 years now, and, working closely with
him, I have developed my own share of personal and intellectual
disagreements with him.
That said, I'd be the first one to declare to the world that he remains a hero to
me for his solid intellectual honesty, his first-rate analytic mindset, and his risk-taking abilities, not to mention, his great sense of humor.
There is much, much I have learnt from him . . . and his fierce intellect has forced me to be better thinker . . . And so, I look forward to many, many years of solid intellectual and social friendship -- filled with both agreements and well-reasoned disagreements -- with him.
Sure, like any Nepali who is a super-achiever, Pratyoush too has his share
his enemies and his share of people who resent him, but, hey, that is to be expected and accepted. I don't think Pratyoush, being Pratyoush, loses
sleep over who likes him and who doesn't.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 06-Nov-01 06:04 AM
Greetings,
because of the server issue, I couldn't post the whole message at once.. so i have just divided this message into two groups.. and because of the same problem, i had to kat-chaat ashu dai's comments.
Trailokya
>Trailokya wrote:
>
>>I DISAGREEE with ashu dai.
>Disagreements are always welcome....
Exactly, this is my attitude too.. the best way to develop critical thinking is to listen to what others have to say.
>Gorkhapatra and The Rising Nepal, solidly
>backed by the Nepali government,
>are certainly more powerful newspapers (in
......
>But as far as the public at large is
>concerned, those newspapers' ........
I agree, but that does not mean that those newspapers(gorkhapatra and TRN) can't be made better. All it needs is an honest government that believes in transperencey and good editors.
>
>Sure, when you have access to ONLY ONE form
>of media and..................
I agree and at this time in Nepal, I think we need some kind of media censorship and a semi-autocratic government. Enough of this competetion in media, look at the quality of newspapers you can buy in Kathmandu and honestly say that nepali media is impartial, competetive and honest. We don't need 50 newspapers publishing the 50 versions of the same story. If we have one newspaper that publishes what really happned/happens/happening, then that is enough. I firmly believe that the media is mainly to be blamed for everything that goes wrong in Nepal. And even if you get brainwashed by one media (brainwashed in a sense that we get a sense of nationalism, take pride in being nepali) then, that is enough.
And that's what we need now. (call me a radical :0)
>(Aside: In Kathmandu, I meet these fifty-
>........
I am yet to meet them, so..can't comment..
>An example of only one form of media to
>promote nationalism
>would be: Saddam Hussein's using his own
>media to "promote" so-called
>Iraqi nationalism in Baghdad ......
You missed one very important point here. Think in reverse, Saddam is in power and that Iraqs enjoy political stability (which unfortunately we don't) and that given the G7's stand on Iraq, if Iraq were to go along with all this media freedom c**p then too, the iraqis would be getting biased views which would call for ousting saddam. So, iraq's example is not a very good one.
Part tWO to follow
|
| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 06-Nov-01 06:06 AM
pat TWO
>But in a noisy, pulsating democracy like
>ours where you have, BY DEFINITION,
>CHOICES, PLURALITY and all that in terms of
>media, then you are bound to see/hear/
>understand ......
NO.. This has, as far as I can see, only resulted in chaos, nepal bandhs, this and that. And I don't hink its a damn good thing for our democracy.
>And so, in such an OPEN, COMPETITIVE system,
>it would be pretty difficult to promote ONLY
>ONE idea as though it were the sole truth.
Ashu dai, you are forgetting another point here: What perceentage of nepali population can read newspapers? So, what competition, what dedmocratic ideals newspapers promote in nepal? And padhe-lekheka people wo read newspapers, too can'td ecide what to believe and in this context, its better to give us one view rather than 200000 views. I have always loved this quote: Its always easier to deal with 1 idiot at a time rather than 100 idiots.
>As such, coming to the issue at hand, EVEN
>for pro-India newspapers ...........being
>solidly and OPENLY challenged -- both
................
exactly, but who is going to challenge them? TKP, STN or the Nepali Times?
>Market ko logic would dictate that the
>investors, wanting profit, would
>want to keep -- by way of their management --
> two PAYING groups happy: subscribers and
>advertizers.
Ashu dai, again, how many people in Nepal will be reading that? 15000 a day? c'mon, for these investors, lossing 15000 readers/newspapers a day isn't a big deal. All they want is to get their message across--directly or indirectly.
Here's an example-Why do you think the Indian government invested on satellite channels? The answer is very simple, so, that the whole of India's next generation speaks hindi. That's called creating a homoinized population and the indian governmnet knows it has to have that for the safe-future of India. Media can be exploited to serve any given party's interests. And what's the interest behind this newspaper? I don't think its about money.. its about something else, about creating a pool of nepali intellectuals who in the long run will believe in everything that is printed on taht newspaper and given the size and condition of nepal, this will have a really adverse effect.
>And so, it's NOT the investors who are going
>to determine the success of the newspaper.
>They are, like investors anywhere on the
>planet, ARE TAKING A
>RISK with their own money.
They are not taking risks. If they were taking risks they would invest in newspaper in an english speaking country like Ireland where they would be getting their money. I mean how many people are going to buy it and how much are these investors planning on making by starting an english language newspaper in a country where not even the 30% of the total population knows how to read and write in English! If theyw ere conscious of money, they would certainly start their newspaper in India, Ireland, England, the US..
>>I don't know mych about this
>>whole deal, but as far as I know, the
>>...........>>
>.............
>be challenged by its competitors, and that's
>the way it should be!!
very unlikely, given the condiion of nepal. Instead in 15 years those who read that newspaper would be thinking of what's printed on that as brahma-bakya.
>
>Indian government is RECONSIDERING its
>policies to allow foreigners to invest in ............
>
It is still re-considering, hasn't made any formal decision yet. Why? because their leaders have the feeling of nationalism, which our leaders lack. And I don't think there will be any foreign investment in Indian media any time soon. If you find anything to contradict this statement, ie, actually find foreign investment in india's print media, even after 10-20-30 years, I'll treat you at Mike's and that time, everything will be on me... 10's of pitchers of Guiness on me.
>Because Nepal needs to attract those with
>money so that:
>we can create job opportunities for Nepalis
>in Nepal.
To craete job oppurtunities for nepalis in nepal, the investors can invest on many otehr things.
>
>I have known Pratyoush for 13 years now, and,
> working closely with
>him, I have developed my own share of
>personal and intellectual
>disagreements with him.
>
>That said, I'd be the first one to declare
>to the world that he remains a hero to
>me for his solid intellectual honesty, his
>first-rate analytic mindset, and his risk-
>taking abilities, not to mention, his great
>sense of humor.
Well, i don't know him personally to know all about him as you do, and for me its not important eitehr, but absed on his pieces, i don't find him any different than CK LAL. I am yet to read a solid analytical piece from him, maybe some day.
>There is much, much I have learnt from him .
>. . and his fierce ...................-
>reasoned disagreements -- with him.
Great, AWESOME! I wish I had a friend like that :-)
>
Sure, like any Nepali who is a super-
>achiever, Pratyoush too has his share
>his enemies .........Pratyoush, being
>Pratyoush, loses
>sleep over who likes him and who doesn't.
Haha, I don't think so eitehr. Why should he loose sleep over people who envy him or who do not like him. This is a big world, people have different tastes, some like to read shakespare, some like Tolstoy.. some are into Gorki, some are way into o'henry...But, don't get me wrong, I don't have time toc are about his uper achievemnets, or anything.. nor am i envious of him. I just said all that absed on my obersvation which is absed on his pieces that i have read here and there..
And that's all on Pratyush. I don't wnat to get involved in any discussion/comments about him, but would be glad to meet him in person.
If still, interested,w e can sahre our views on the whole idnian deal.
Trailokya
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 06-Nov-01 11:50 PM
Trailokoya,
You seem to believe that Nepal is just NOT quite ready for democracy, and that
somehow semi-autocracy (whatever that means) is what we need, and that
your entire thought process stems from those beliefs.
That is fine.
But that is NOT what I believe.
I accept that democracy is not the greatest system in the world and that it
has tons of problems.
But that alternatives to democracy ARE much, much worse, as evidenced by
our own pre-1990 history.
Sure, it's easy to lump the problems of Nepal (1991-2001) onto democracy per se, but, I would argue, that Nepal's problems in the last 10 years have come MORE from 'software issues' such as our khattam legal and political systems that tolerate/reward corruption and so on, than from 'hardware issues' such
as democracy itself.
If we disagree about this foundational belief, then, there is really no reason
to go further together.
And so, taking only my track further: I believe that ONLY in an OPEN democracy can there be a vigorous exchange of ideas -- both brilliant and stupid. Having more ideas, having a plurality of thoughts and having a wide variety of back-and-forth opinions IN PUBLIC SPACE are ipso facto better than having only one person or one group of people or a one particular system deciding stuff for all a la what they have in Iraq, North Korea and even in our own Maoist-run districts.
Nepali janata, educated or not, are NOT children who need to be constantly mothered or watched out for by those in authorities.
Viewed this way, I see this Indian-backed newspaper merely another PUBLIC forum in which certain ideas will and can be promoted -- but that that is NOTHING to be afraid of, because we all know that just because one puts forth a viewpoint in public does NOT mean that people are going to buy that wholeheartedly. Same logic also applies for the editorial stuff of that for-profit newspaper.
Moreover, though NOT from the media sector, my confidence has been further bolstered because, in the last ten years, the Nepali media in general has become quite competitive in terms of attracting media talents, ad revenues and subscribers. And so, as a consumer of media, I am happy to note that this
new newspaper will NOT have a monopoly of any kind on how we Nepalis think.
Extending my logic about foreign investment further, I would have no problem inviting more Indians, Chinese, German, French, American -- or whoever else in the world -- to:
a) come to Nepal,
b) partner with Nepali businesspeople,
c) invest their money in various business and non-business sectors.
d) run legally-sound businesses
e) provide jobs, goods and services in and out of Nepal, and
f) and continue to follow our laws (which need to be made all the more
business-friendly)
and all that.
As for Pratyoush, I stand by my earlier statements about him, and that is that.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 07-Nov-01 09:26 PM
>
>You seem to believe that Nepal is just NOT
>quite ready for democracy, and that
>somehow semi-autocracy (whatever that means)
>is what we need, and that
>your entire thought process stems from those
>beliefs.
>
>That is fine.
Yes, that's what i believe, otherwise I wouldn't be saying all those. Look at Nepal now, and Nepal in the Panchayat days. And I believe that Panchayat era was 20000 times better in every sense, than this Vad-Vailo democracy. Plus, ashu dai, here's one thing, when you change from one system to another, before you switch, you have to know how to make the new system work, and for that a lot of planning is required. You can't just go from one system to another. I admit that democracy is the ebst system, but that doesn't mean it works everywhere.. and even for this best system to work, there needs planning. C'mon we think 2000 times, consult with 20000 people before changing the paint in our rooms, then why didn't we have little thinking, little planning before we switched on to democracy? And we are seeing, experiencing and of course hearing the consequences of this haphazardly planted democracy.
I know its fine. I know I have my rights to believe inw hat i believe unless you or some oterh able posters make me believe otherwise.
Semi-autocratic or authoritarian govt. is like that of lee Kuan Yu's.
>
>But that is NOT what I believe.
You don't have to. You are free to have your own set of beliefs.
>I accept that democracy is not the greatest
>system in the world and that it
>has tons of problems.
No, democracy is the ebst system if utilized in properly.
Looks like I am more democratci than you :-)
>
>But that alternatives to democracy ARE much,
>much worse, as evidenced by
>our own pre-1990 history.
Not necessarily. Would you mind defining democracy for me? Is multi-party democracy the only form of dedmocracy? Can't there be otehr forms of democracy?
And what was worse in the pre 1990 era? Then too we had 200000 newspapers and 20000 views. What's the difference now?
>
>Sure, it's easy to lump the problems of
>Nepal (1991-2001) onto democracy per se, but,
> I would argue, that Nepal's problems in the
>last 10 years have come MORE from 'software
>issues' such as our khattam legal and
>political systems that tolerate/reward
>corruption and so on, than from 'hardware
>issues' such
>as democracy itself.
Yes, but why did we have the software problems? Because our operating system wasn't and still isn't ready to accept the new softwares.
>If we disagree about this foundational
>belief, then, there is really no reason
>to go further together.
Exactly, but just as you have rights to put forth your views, i too can.Didn't you say that disagreements help in learning more about the issues?:-)
>
>And so, taking only my track further: I
>believe that ONLY in an OPEN democracy can
>there be a vigorous exchange of ideas --
>both brilliant and stupid. Having more ideas,
> having a plurality of thoughts and having a
>wide variety of back-and-forth opinions IN
>PUBLIC SPACE are ipso facto better than
>having only one person or one group of
>people or a one particular system deciding
>stuff for all a la what they have in Iraq,
>North Korea and even in our own Maoist-run
>districts.
Having more ideas, views, isn't always that important, what is important is what those views are., and where theya re coming from. Otherwise we can have 200000 bank robbers, deliver speeches at Tundikhel on new techniques to rb banks? Going by yoiur logic, then that is good.
Again, let's not bring Irfaq, Korea into this. Nepal is different and we have to think in terms of nepal, not that of Iraq or even the US.
>Nepali janata, educated or not, are NOT
>children who need to be constantly mothered
>or watched out for by those in authorities.
I strongly DISAGREE.
>Viewed this way, I see this Indian-backed
>newspaper merely another PUBLIC forum in
>which certain ideas will and can be promoted
>-- but that that is NOTHING to be afraid of,
>because we all know that just because one
>puts forth a viewpoint in public does NOT
>mean that people are going to buy that
>wholeheartedly. Same logic also applies for
>the editorial stuff of that for-profit
>newspaper.
Look at history, all great and worst things stem from one thing, ie, print media.
>Moreover, though NOT from the media sector,
>my confidence has been further bolstered
>because, in the last ten years, the Nepali
>media in general has become quite
>competitive in terms of attracting media
>talents, ad revenues and subscribers. And so,
> as a consumer of media, I am happy to note
>that this
>new newspaper will NOT have a monopoly of
>any kind on how we Nepalis think.
I don'a gree on this point either. Nothing has changed in the last 10 years.
>Extending my logic about foreign investment
>further, I would have no problem inviting
>more Indians, Chinese, German, French,
>American -- or whoever else in the world --
>to:
>
>a) come to Nepal,
>b) partner with Nepali businesspeople,
>c) invest their money in various business
>and non-business sectors.
>d) run legally-sound businesses
>e) provide jobs, goods and services in and
>out of Nepal, and
>f) and continue to follow our laws (which
>need to be made all the more
>business-friendly)
>
>and all that.
This is what I want too, but I don't want them to invest on nepali media. What if a chinese company comes to nepal and say we want to invest on the army? And a german company wnats to spend on the governmnet?
>As for Pratyoush, I stand by my earlier
>statements about him, and that is that.
Great. No comments. I have madee my points known and I don't want to continue furtehr on that. Have a nice day!
Trailokya
>oohi
>ashu
>ktm,nepal
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 08-Nov-01 12:11 AM
>
>You seem to believe that Nepal is just NOT
>quite ready for democracy, and that
>somehow semi-autocracy (whatever that means)
>is what we need, and that
>your entire thought process stems from those
>beliefs.
>
>That is fine.
>Yes, that's what i believe, otherwise I wouldn't be saying all those
I am shocked at Trailokya's remark about readiness of Nepali populace for
democratic rule.
Democracy is ,from the core, a system we cherish. Autocracy of any form is not
acceptable to us. What's guarantee that autocracy of Lee's form will be workable
in the society where Scandanavian style democracy is "not working"?
Democracy is , in fact, slowly working in Nepal. A lot of people have been
courageous, and most of the intransigence previously shown by political parties
and their activists is slowly eroding away to give rise to unity and agreement.
Autocracy of 103+30 years had absorbed our blood, our freedom to think, our
right to live a decent life. We need democracy. We will mature. It takes time, but
we will mature. Slowly, supreme courts, Loksewa aayog etc places will be presided
by honest individuals from our own society, and the prominent role of political
parties will be lessened. People will become stronger. Nepali people, given the
unfettered access to be informed and to do business, are capable and of business
instinct, which has been proven by many in Terai districts including that in my one.
Let's be optimistic about democracy.We are ready for that.
|
