| Username |
Post |
| arnico |
Posted
on 06-Nov-01 11:33 PM
Friends,
As a long time GBNC member currently staying at my sasurali (which is neither in the US nor in Nepal), it is my daily pleasure to check the Kurakani pages and see what the community has been up to...
Especially since the crisis in June, I have had the pleasure of watching the diversification and the maturing of discussions on Kurakani. It has been nice to see that playful discussions on gender relations can coexist with intellectually argued debates on national issues on the same bulletin board. It has been especially nice to see a reduction in the personal attacks (especially by AND against a few individuals) which in the past tended to ruin good discussions. It has also been good to see how the community has responded to the demons of Nepali society (whether racism, castism, extreme nationalism, or any other forms of bigotry and stereotyping) whenever they raised their heads somewhere on the bulletin board... it is only by confronting them head-on as we have done, that we can learn and move beyond them. They will continue to haunt Nepal and any attempts to change it for the better, so it is good for us to learn here, now, to conquer them!
So, today, Kurakani has already become a very valuable place for learning: about current events in Nepal and elsewhere, and more importantly, for learning from EACHOTHER. I feel that I am starting to see glimpses of something larger: of attempts to take our community, our learning, our resources, and trying to MAKE A POSITIVE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD... whether for the wellbeing of Nepalis abroad, or for helping shape the development of Nepal. I see glimpses of the development of LEADERSHIP, and I hope to see this grow!
I believe we have a concensus that there is a crisis of leadership in Nepal... the morality, credibility, and intelligence of current decision makers in Nepal is questioned like it has not been in... just over half a century? The Rana regime, we recall, was brought to an end by NEPALI STUDENTS STUDYING ABROAD in Banaras (Nepal's best and brightest, and most fortunate young people of the time), who decided that they had enough of mess, took matters in their hands, and within the span of a few years, brought about major changes in the way the country was governed... change that would have been impossible to carry out by common people within Nepal alone.
Today, I would like to argue, the GBNC forum provides a similar gathering of Nepal's best and brightest young minds, while the current people with power in Nepal have similarly low prospects of meeting the country's needs... bogged down by petty interests and corruption, pushed around by a foreign aid community that does more to help itself than to help Nepal (For example, what allows the same expat engineer to build simple rural bridges in Nepal for twenty years when his salary could have trained twenty Nepali engineers abroad? A swiss gardener to come to Nepal as an agricultural expert? A Danish NGO to drive out a successful Nepali NGO from a village in Palpa, and then claim credit for what the Nepali NGO had done before? The British government to pressure Mahat into accepting a project that Nepal does not need, just because 10 British "experts" need employment?) Imagine what we could do if we took over and ran Nepal ourselves? If ten or twenty years from now, the kind of debate seen on this forum were carried out on a daily basis by the people running Nepal?
I am absolutely NOT calling for an armed revolution, nor am I calling for all of us who are abroad now to immediately return to Nepal... nor am I calling on all of us to go into government. Rather, I am calling on each of you to imagine what you could contribute, say a few years from now, if you did what you do best anyways, but if we coordinated our activities so as to have a large impact. For example:
1) If we developed a way of supporting (at least with information and advice, if not finances) those who would like to invest in business in Nepal.
2) If we developed a system of advice and feedback to the government, whereby we debated, and then provided well-argued statements on present and future policy decisions? ... and followed up with evaluations? ... of course with close ties to journalists in KTM who would publish our statements. [some thought towards this already happened by the group who registered www.nepalfuture.com, but the site as not taken off yet]
3) If we worked with the Nepali government on changing the banking system to make it easier for legal transfer of foreign currency to Nepal by any Nepali abroad, whether working legally or not, bypassing the hundi system that keeps abroad a large fraction of the dollars meant for Nepal.
4) if we institutionalized a way for the GBNC alumni staying abroad to establish and contributes to a fund that helps sponsor those who go back to Nepal for public service activities... giving both those who stay abroad a sense that they are providing an essential contribution, and those who return to Nepal some financial security?
5) If we wrote the mission statement and constitution for a new political party capable of giving people hope, with inside-party accountability mechanisms that ensure that election slogans are met? A party that controls corruption among its own members? We may not want to go form the party ourselves... but hopefully what we write would at least be a measuring stick for others!
6) What if we designed and worked towards building a new university in Nepal... or beyond that, to developing Nepal as an international center of educational services? It certainly has the landscape to attract people from abroad... and foreign students and scholars contribute more to the economy than tourists who stay 3 days!
...anyway... those six points are just a few random ideas that have been floating around my head for a while (and some of you may have heard some already).... things that can be done in different time scales if a large enough number of people show an interest and commitment.
The main thing, in the near future, is to keep high-level discussions going here on Kurakani, including discussions of where we want to head to.
-Arnico.
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 07-Nov-01 12:51 AM
Arnicoji:
Nice to read your thoughts. I think among all of your suggestions, #6 is the most
viable one. To a lot of people, politics is not very interesting field to work in . But
we can make things different by working on those fields where we definitely excel
than others.(Until now, in politics we are not better than our NC/UML brethrens.)
I was talking with one Indian scientist somedays ago. IIT and Berkeley
graduated, he was so pessimistic about scientific situations in India. They sounded
so relavant in Nepal's case, so let me write down some of his comments about
India.
1. Professors in big universities spend money of research doing nothing, and
later claim some spurious finding. In the start of 90s, a prof in prestigious Calcutta
University claimed he proved one of Einstein's formula wrong. Since Calcutta Univ
was considered one of the world's best in 40s(producing among others Nobel
laureates), international scientists took him seriously and invited in a conference
in New Orleans. Result, a hoax non-replicable 'finding'.
2. In Bangalore, one state funded research agency claimed to have made a
indigenous supercomputer. This prof knew a few people working there, but nobody
said they ever saw that computer, or any work of the computer. The govt , and a
few senior scientists proclaimed their 'invention'. Washington Post later published
a report about the invention, and US govt, wary of India's rising power, banned
sale of any technology related to high-tech military h/w to India thereafter. India
thus lost any chance to create her own genuine computer.[The socalled
supercomputer,this professor claims, was never built, but those scientists duped
govt to believe it, and got a lot of funding]
3. In 80s, 70s, most of the hoax findings done in prestigious US schools were in
the field of Molecular biology or other biological disciplines.A lot of Indian scientists
were among them.
4. One Indian just recently claimed to have invented 'herbal' gasoline. So ludicrous
a claim (herbal , how can it have hydrocarbon?), but it was promoted by one top
IIT scientist(he claimed he actually replicated it) and IT chief minister Mr Naidu of
India. Later turned out to be hoax.
I listed these points here, to say how people without mind and honesty can run
the government and even intelligent circle even in the country like India. And how
easy it is for them to ruin the reputation of a country. People won't remember the
name of the person , but they would remember where he came from.Nepal can
also be victim of such spurious finding claimers, and phony intellectuals.
And as a computer science student, I so clearly know how India is nothing in
Software field. It has only made softwares ,but it hasn't made any software for
mass sale.No graphics package, no database, no office assistant. Eventhough a
small country, Germany has SAP, Israel has ICQ to boast on, but India is a bubble,
but yet, Indian leadership and some scientists keep on putting spurious claim.
I so much hope we don't emulate Indians, and we establish our own top class
research institute in Nepal. Where we can work on our skill in mathematics, physics,
Engineering and so many other things. Education is culture, we may not be able
to reap the fruit of our work in our generation, but it will be a boon to our tiny
nation in future which was excluded from the light of education for that 103 years,
when the world witnessed the most profound change in the field of all basic
sciences.
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 07-Nov-01 01:34 AM
Arnico,
I agree with your sentiments here. I remember your discussing similar
thoughts in Nepal last summer.
Yes, there is much potential for all of us to do "good" for, in and out of
Nepal.
But that potential can only be realized by relentless, constant and
FREE peer-to-peer (P2P) exchange of ideas, thoughts, disagreements
and so on. Sometimes, these exchanges can be pleasant, and sometimes, they can be brutal.
Either way, if we all learn to accept that disagreement with an idea is NOT
really equal to the disagreement of the person holding that idea, then, we will open MORE doors to learn from one another.
San, the Webmaster, remains a libertarian's role model, and thanks largely to
his good judgment (i.e. to interefre MINIMALLY while acting on 'customer comments' to introduce innovative features), this site, to a large extent, is
pretty much a self-organizing, self-policing system, and that is pretty much what
a viable democracy is like anyway.
Of course, members of the Nepali community in Boston MUST be thanked for allowing so many non-Bostonians from all over the world to post stuff
here -- this diversity is what gives strength and vigor to this site.
A very Happy Tihar to you all.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| arnico |
Posted
on 07-Nov-01 05:53 AM
>Nice to read your thoughts. I think among
>all of your suggestions, #6 is the most
>viable one.
Glad to read that!
# 6 (the university) has been my pet day-dreaming distraction for the past three years.
I would like to ask anyone who is interested in joining a team that will seriously pursue over the next decade the establishment of a new university in Nepal to please e-mail me directly at
arnico@mit.edu
and please provide me with the following information:
who you are, where you are now, what fields you have studied, or are studying now (or what you intend to study), what kind of work experience and other talents that you have.
As well as: why you are interested in this project, and what aspects you would be interested in / willing to spend spend time on. These include (but are not limited to) planning the university's mission, academic curriculum, faculty recruitment, financial planning, fund-raising, campus site selection, campus design, student selection criteria, etc. etc. Some preliminary work has been done on each of these aspects already, so you would not be starting completely from zero.
----
Having said that, let me not distract from discussions about any other topics. There certainly are, and should be, many other important future activities by today's participants in the GBNC kurakani.
|
| Siwalik |
Posted
on 07-Nov-01 03:51 PM
Future is a good place to aim for if it provides us with better prospect. There are various way to get there. One way could be to learn from successes others have had. One such examples has been the South Asian success in the past fifty years. It is also a fact that one could mean well, but that does not necessarily produce an intended result. So between the intention and implimentation, there has to be careful consideration and participation that requires "collective action." That is a monumental tast, albiet not insurmountable. To add to the discussion, let me sugest two lessons that can be drawn from the ASEAN model. Although there is not one single transferable lesson, these things seem to be common:
1. Efficient bureaucracy: The most important aspect of this feature was the meritocratic system that recruited the best and the brightest into the civil service, and provided career structure that paid generously.
2. Government-business relation: Close cooperation between them is essential. But the government also has to be able to resist tendencies of business to skew the market and develop self-defeating habits. One of the characteristics of this model was the close cooperation of government and business based on quality information flow, close association and ties at various levels of network that created confidence, and facilitated coordination.
Supplementing these features, there was the regime's association of their own survival with economic prosperity of the society. In that regard, the leadership was able to diffuse a sense of genuine commitment to a collective project of national development, which created an importnt "collective goods".
I do not believe that any progress can be sustainable without effective political reformation in Nepal. That is why Arnico's political suggestion are more important than others. we might have to think of creating and supporting an alternate political party. That brings us to a whole different ball game, but very relevant.
|
| michael |
Posted
on 07-Nov-01 04:15 PM
Actions speak louder than words.
Everything sounds great in theory but can you actually implement it ? Are Nepali people ready for it ? Remember how your democracy(1990) went down the tubes ?
I think they would rather fight amongst themselves for petty little things than get the whole picture. Zone of peace is more like zone of corruption from the moment you land in the country. Even the ones that are so called educated act like apes when amongst their pact( look at past threads on this site, some harvard grads fighting like a kindergarden kids).
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| Siwalik |
Posted
on 07-Nov-01 04:34 PM
Ideas always have to precede actions. That is why ideas whose time have come are the most powerful force in the world. Internet is a great equalizer since we can now exchange information freely and no government has total monopoly on infomation. The change can be utilized by like-minded people to form activist groups that will INDEED make a difference sooner or later. You, my friend, might want to deride us, but we shall overcome--not only the problems that face us, but also cynics among us and those like you too.
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| Michael |
Posted
on 07-Nov-01 04:44 PM
Keep dreaming my good friend. and good luck ;-)
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| arnico |
Posted
on 07-Nov-01 10:25 PM
This is a response to Ashu's comments about the open exchange of ideas, Michael's pessimism, Michael's attempt to instill pessimism in others, his comment that action speaks louder than words, and his good wishes that we keep dreaming:
I agree that action speaks louder than words. But action, as Siwalik mentioned has to be preceded by ideas.... ideas that mature through discussion with people who share similar interests. Ideas have to be preceded by dreaming and by imagining the plausible future... by dreaming of alternative futures than those we would reach simply by muddling forward from the present ... without being chained down by lack of imagination about how to proceed with practical considerations.
Dreaming does not happen well when interrupted by pessimism, and neither does the serious discussion of how to proceed with ideas once there is a decision to move beyond the talking stage. So, although I think this forum is great for collecting together people who share similar interests, the actual preparation for action cannot happen in an open forum like this! It needs mutual trust, respect, and some familiarity among the participants... something that this forum cannot provide by its very nature (which, for SOME tasks IS its strength).
So, friends, I call on you to share your dreams and ideas here... and to use this forum to find people who take your dreams and ideas seriously with whom you can work directly. Yes, let us post progress, questions for open discussion, frustration, anger, and whatever else here... but let us keep in mind that to get to action (and ultimately results) we need to take steps beyond posting on the open forum.
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 07-Nov-01 11:43 PM
I don't see any reason why we should be termed just day-dreamer.
Ideas, as Siwalik says, should always precede action. A lot of ideas don't
materialize, but some of the ideas do. Those without ideas have nothing to
materialize, or worse, even if they have resource to do something and even
if they start doing something, such actions without idea will only end in debacle.
Let us be proud of our ideas. Arnicoji, thanks for letting us know your intentions.
They are very worthy, and who knows we will be crediting this website for
the establishment of a world class research institute in the future! Critics have
always been there, and will always be.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 08-Nov-01 12:45 AM
Arnico, Biswo and others,
Like you guys, I am a big, big dreamer.
I too believe in building castles in the air.
My attitude is: Only after you have FIRST built those castles in the air (that is, after you have dared to dream a better future, dared to imagine a better
scenario, and dared to have sharper mental maps of where you want to go further) that you can focus your energy, your drive, your intelligence, your resources, and your social networks to pursuade others to come and help you to put the foundations underneath those castles.
80 per cent of any innovative/creative work, after all, is just getting those
mental maps right.
In Nepal, it can be hard, though not impossible, to find fellow-Nepalis with dreams, with imagination, with energy and drive and with optimism for a
better future. These are not the ones who -- certainly do NOT have all the answers, but have a capacity to dream and learn -- will take our societies
further.
So, let us all dream more. Let us all imagine more. After all, it's reams and imagination that are CRUCIAL for the success of any work.
oohi
fellow-dreamer
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| ashu |
Posted
on 08-Nov-01 12:47 AM
CORRECTION:
Instead of:
>These are not the ones who --
>certainly do NOT have all the answers, but
>have a capacity to dream and learn -- will
>take our societies
>further.
SHOULD HAVE BEEN:
>These ARE THE ONES who --
>certainly do NOT have all the answers, but
>have a capacity to dream and learn -- will
>take our societies
>further.
|
| BP |
Posted
on 08-Nov-01 01:06 AM
I have a dream. I have a dream that I will become successful and somehow I can help things a little in Nepal. Little did I realize that I would have a long course of selfishness (to succeed you see), before I can attempt to make a difference. I just hope that I do not lose sight of this dream when I am more established. I admire the people who have gone back to Nepal, and wonder if I could have done the same, had I not been citizen of another country by birth (but really I am as Nepali as gundruk and masyaora).
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| Siwalik |
Posted
on 08-Nov-01 10:24 AM
Well, dreams have a purpose. Dreams can fail, ideas not grounded in reality can go astray. Those of us who dream and churn out ideas , inspired by our observation and experiences abroad, should also base the implementation on the ground reality of Nepal. Post-Colonial African leaders had a grand vision of industrializing their countries to give a better standard of living for their people. Look where they are now. I will say this: Any idea that will see the fruit of action has to fit in within a grand design, a broader vision. Many countries have tried and failed. The trick for us will be to gather people from various areas of interests and share the insight on what constitutes a strategy for developing a backward country like Nepal.
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| arnico |
Posted
on 08-Nov-01 11:59 PM
BP - you mention a common fear -- of losing sight of the dream by the time one is established. I raised the question of "optimal timing" in the brain drain thread for similar reasons. I think there are two ways to ensure that the dream remains through the necessary years of preparation:
1) Invest in occasional air tickets back to Nepal, and spend enough time in places with a pervasive "optimistic", "let's build a better place" type attitude. These include Pokhara, Dharan, even Bhaktapur, as well as lots of rural areas with large lahure populations.... not Kathmandu and Patan though, at least in my experience.
2) Build and maintain a network of fellow dreamers. And occasionally work together to do little things like bring a few books back to donate to a library in Nepal. Check out www.booksfornepal.org to see what a former Microsoft employee is doing with his time and spare cash (I met some of his team in Ghandruk recently).
Ashu... I agree that dreams and visions are important starting points. But I doubt that the work that remains afterwards is only 20%! Especially in Nepal, I think it takes MORE effort to make things successful... that said, it CAN be done with a little bit of patience and persistence.
... which leads to Siwalik's point that the dreams that are most likely to be realized are the ones that are based upon a clear understanding of the situation in Nepal. I, for one, don't think we will ever get far with massive export-oriented industrialization (at least in the traditional, material production sense). We will never be able to compete with our Bangladeshi and Indian neighbors for the combination of cheap labor and easy sea access. Our hope lies in making good use of that which we have a comparative advantage in. At the moment I can only think of two:
1) beautiful landscapes.
2) hydropower resources.
If we work hard over the next two decades we may be able to produce a third: human resources (a highly educated populace)...and that will open up a whole new range of possibilities. But, until that time, we have to make do with the first two. Yes, to a small scale we do have the potential to increase processed food output and get some income from that. Already, Nepali cheese is preferred by 5 star hotels in Delhi. Swissair serves the Real brand orange juice produced by Dabur Nepal in Parsa on its flights out of India. Thailand imports US apples (wouldn't Nepali ones be easier?). Even Nepali mineral water is gaining marketplace abroad ... yes, there is the potential for increased income from such products. But that alone won't do much for us. Switzerland's economy does not depend solely on cheese, chocolate, and Nestle products! We really need to make better use of (1) and (2). But with (2) we need to beware: Getting foreign companies to build hydropower plants in Nepal for the export of raw energy will not alone do anything for Nepal's development (see the case of Shell and oil in Nigeria). But there may be things we can do with our easily available hydropower that allows us to export value-added products with it. (I am not an expert in this though).
As for the landscape: Tourism marketing has a long way to go. Stories and myths about various places in our landscape have to be collected, translated into English, and used to attract people carrying cameras. Pokhara valley alone, has, I believe, more marketable attractions than all of northern Thailand (the size of Nepal). But compare 5 million tourists in northern Thailand with the 50-100,000 who go to Pokhara each year! Bus loads of tourists each day go to look at the golden triangle... stay at 5 star hotels with views from their rooms of the golden triangle. But what is it? The damn confluence of the Mekong river with a nondescript little stream. Yes, across the Mekong is Laos and across the stream is Burma. But what looks different? Nothing. Same trees on the Laos side (and less spectacular than looking across the Trisuli from Prithvi highway). A casino and a more eroded bank on the Burmese side... Is THAT what the tourists came to see? No they came in order to "have been there"... because the Thai tourism marketers have told them it is important to bring along cameras and take pictures of them standing in front of (mind you!) a sign that says "Golden Triangle". Apparently there used to be some opium plantations in the area (not any more), some fights with drug dealers (no evidence of that either)... just stories. Imagine what could be done with battle sites of the Maoist struggle! But not even that... just the simple vistas from lots of places in Nepal, and stories about common people's lives in those landscapes... anyway, that was a bit of ramble. My point was that we can do much better than we are doing now in making the country attractive to tourists. Why do most tourists still only consider Kathmandu-Pokhara-Chitwan-Mountain flight... the same thing as 20 years ago? Why not the spectacular carvings on stupa ruins in Surkhet? The fortress in Dailekh? The tea gardens in Ilam? The rhododendrons on Milkedanda? Why don't we have more tourist destinations that attract more than a trickle of people?
And WHY should our landscape only attract tourists? Why not more reliable guests who don't cancel their reservations as soon as something happens in Kashmir, New York or Narayanhiti? Why not more students? More people recoverin from asthma? People coming for medical treatment? Yes, we need facilities and institutions that attract such people... but once we have such facilities, our landscape gives us a comparative advantage over such facilities in other countries (more than our factories would ever have over similar factories in other countries). If the hospital is as good, who would prefer seeing a Bangkok highway from their hospital window rather than Mt. Manaslu?
--Arnico.
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 09-Nov-01 01:23 PM
A lot of times, I think that in Nepal, sooner or later sanity prevails. There are a lot
of things we can be hopeful about in Nepal.
Here is one fundamentally positive news from Nepal. (From TKP)
KATHMANDU, Nov 9 - The government says it is withdrawing the controversial Public Security Regulation (PSR). The government move apparently follows decrease in tension and insurgency related violence in the country.
Minister for Information and Communications Jayaprakash Prasad Gupta told Kantipur Online that the decision to withdraw the controversial regulation was made during a cabinet meeting Friday. He said the move was not a suspension but a total withdrawal of the regulation.
The PSR has been heavily criticised by the opposition parties and human rights groups as being too authoritarian and that the powers provided by regulations could be misused.
The Regulations empowered the CDOs or officials on their behalf to order individual or a group under solitary confinement or limit their movement to a certain areas if officials were "convinced" that the suspected people are about to harm the country’s sovereignty, integrity or infringe law and order. It also allowed people to be detained without trial for certain period of time.
Minister Gupta also told Kantipur Online that the meeting decided to release 68 more people arrested on charges of being involved with Maoist activities. "The government has initiated the process to release them...it will be sometime before they are set free," he added.
He said the government would look into the Maoist demands about their cadres still being held by the government. He said, "The Home Ministry would furnish details about whether it has information about those Maoist cadres."
Release of all detained Maoist cadres is one of the conditions set by the rebels to hold fresh round of talks. Two round of negotiations have failed to make any headway to end the six-year-old Maoist insurgency that has claimed over 1,800 lives.
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 09-Nov-01 01:25 PM
Hey, I just realized I posted in wrong thread! Or is it still relevant?
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| Siwalik |
Posted
on 09-Nov-01 11:11 PM
I would agree with Arnoco in his assessment of our comparative advantage, namely:
1. tourism
2. hydropower.
Of course, a caveat on these is that both have their in-built constraints. Take hydropower first. Where is our market? If India does not cooperate in its development, then it is a non-starter. Hence, India's intentions toward Nepal and its willingness to accept Nepal as a capable country that can prosper is an essential ingredient fr hydropower development. I would prefer micro hydro power generation that do not depend on big foreign investments, but politicians want commission and personal enrichments, so it is easier for them to opt for grand schemes. What are your views on that?
Regarding tourism, I see it mre diverse than your "beautiful landscape." I find three possibilities:
1. Cultural tourism--historic sites around Nepal--Lumbini, Gosaikunda, etc.
2. Eco-tourism--various national parks
3. Mountain tourism--treks, mountain flights, camping sites (landscape as you say)
Besides tourism is not as easy for us as say the Caribbeans, which can attract Americans. We have to have entreprenuers who have the audacity to dream big. For instance, we can target high price tourists who want privacy and want to get away from the maddening world for a week or month into far away place. Now imagine an entrepreneur could build high class resort in the rara area, or other equally enchanting yet remote area. Imagine these resorts were networked by helicoptors. I do not think money would be problem for this kind of tourism. If we build, they will come. This is for the top echelon.
There are midium income sectors for tourish and would be specifically targetted to neighboring countries like India, SouthEast Asia, etc. This could cater to all three types I have mentioned. What is needed is traininng of enterpreneurs into the arts of marketing, catering and serving--integration of all aspect of providing an efficient, competitive service at affordable price.
But nothing works in a vacuum. I do not think tourists who visit Nepal woudl appreciate having to look at misery, poverty, and other such manifestation as faeces covered trails, paths, and lanes in the mountain, towns, bazaars, etc. Any effort on developing tourism would have to be integrated with community participation, education and integartion so that they too can benefit from their arrival, stay and shopping. This is not just a matter of travel agents, hotels and guides. I would say community is an integral part. Which means, instructing children not to be running after them begging for "one ruppee," or "one pensil please."
But however hard we might try, tourism has vulnerabilities due to our own internal instability, and external shocks. Both are detrimental. One terrorist attack and two airlines inside the USA as well as two in Europe are about to fold. Nepal too is reeling under the effect.
So, to conclude, yes I agree with your assessment, but would you suggest some options and insights on what I have pointed out?
|
| arnico |
Posted
on 11-Nov-01 10:52 AM
Biswo... I think the first sentence of your "accidental" post IS relevant in this thread as elsewhere...
Siwalik. You make lots of good points. Let me respond to a few of them:
I agree, "beautiful landscapes" is a rather vague term to describe all that is attractive for tourists in Nepal, and I would have thought of your second and third types of tourism (as well as some others that may not have a name yet) as both falling under this category. You bring out a good point about cultural tourism. We have a HUGE number of sites that could be very easily marketed as historical sites in a way that people would want to come visit. But there may be more to cultural tourism beyond historical sites. I guess when I am in Nepal I am too much of a local to notice it, but lots of my foreign friends (and even my wife) comment on a sense of "warmth and genuine sincerity" that they feel among random strangers in Nepal that seems to be deep-rooted in the culture. While I can't think of a way of selling that to potential first-time visitors (nor do I think it would necessarily be a good thing to try to market), I do think that it is strong factor in getting people to come for second, third, fourth visits, and for former expatriates in Nepal to want to return to Nepal.
Regarding the need for development: yes to some extent some "development" is needed in order to make Nepal more attractive to tourists... some infrastructure development and decrease in visible misery helps tourism... however, I usually tend to think of tourism as being needed because it helps development: it provides income (foreign exchange, service jobs, profits from the sale of handicrafts etc. etc.) to the nation and to the people that then can be invested in development-related activities (education, health, infrastructure), both by the government and by individuals. The problem with that, as you point out, is that tourism is a very unreliable horse to ride that is vulnerable to a large number of factors that are beyond the control of a government or society at large....Although our government itself has done a lot to DISCOURAGE tourism through its mismanagement of RNAC... (we can have a whole separate thread about that if anyone is interested).
---
Siwalik, I am curious whether, behind the interesting pseudonym, and the more interesting posts there sits a person whom I already know. If so (or even if not), I would be happy to get an e-mail directly from you (especially if you are still interested in # 5 in my first post).
-Arnico.
|
| Siwalik |
Posted
on 11-Nov-01 02:29 PM
Arnico: Certainly tourism and development can be considered mutually reinforcing proposition. It's like If-you-build-they'll-come deal. We have another advantage--the friendly Nepali people, and their ready smile,not to forget the the cultural trait to treat the guests as gods. I can think of some more forms of tourism that Nepal is suitable for but we need to have top quality medical facility to support that, for instance: adventure tourism and extreme sports tourism. I was even thinking of writing to CBS about Nepal and sell them the idea that they could film of of their "Survivor" series around the Himalayas. You know, anything to get more exposure for Nepal. If Africa, why not Nepal? They could have challenges such as running up and down a valley, white-water rafting competition, crossing the moountain stream using nothing more than a stick, etc. And if they want the ikky stuff, make the competitors eat snails. :)
So "Survivor-Himalayas" or Survivor-Everest" is a feasible plan. How about selling it to CBS? This is a good way to promote tourism. But we need to have people skilled in Western marketing strategies to sell what we have. Without proper marketing the assets we have will never bear fruit to their potential.
I am actualy supportive of all six of your points. My only suggestion was that whatever we want to do cannot be done in isolation. Institutional build-up and bureaucratic efficiency are foundational requirements. All the enthusiasm and altruistic motivations can be grounded into dust by bureaucratic hurdles and frustrations. Aculerating Nepalese into thinking globaly is another challenge. Most people still want things done for them. They do not believe that they can be the agent of change.
Thanks for your compliment on my pseudonym. You are aware that it is the smallest or the hilly range in Nepal, aren't you? Your column about the mountains in Nepal that appeared in Himal were pretty good. Well, now you know that you have already received anemail from me.
p.s. One of these days, I might post something about advocacy networks that might be helpful for any action we might want to take collectively in areas that we decide to do in Nepal.
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 11-Nov-01 02:39 PM
Now that Maoists seem to be in the process of safelanding, it is going to be boon
for our tourism industry. [ It will also be time to uplift the living condition of poor
Nepali who could be tempted by such revolution again and again.] CBS idea sounds
very good.
Actually, people went to shot movies in Nepal in the past. Politically charged
environment and xenophobe communists community of those time made things not
so conducive for these ventures. Now I think left parties have mellowed a lot, and
hope for any kind of tourism seems rational.
In a lighter note, when Siwalik wrote about Survivor series and snail eating, I
remembered my own trip to one mountain north of Pokhara long ago. Leech were
big time trouble there, specially in the rainy season.
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| Gaule |
Posted
on 11-Nov-01 05:08 PM
Hi,
Nice to know that a group of people abroad are planning seriously for the betterment of the Nepal. The ideas regarding the university, tourism, hydro-power, and agriculture products are definitely attractive. However, its not the case that nothing is being done in these fields. A consideratble amount of money and other resources are being invested in these areas, but the return to the people involved and to the country is limited and in most of the cases they are struggling to survive and regret the decision.
The root cause of this is the prevaling corruption and degrading morale among Nepalese in general and political parties in particular. So, there is no other way but to control corruption.
Who will control the corruption? All the present leaders and political parties are or have been directly or indirectly involved in corrption. There is no way that the corruption can be controlled by corrupt themself. Its like Girija talking about controlling corruption (look at the state of RNAC).
Regarding the ideas of arnico, contributing or atleast planning to contribute by the best and brightest and most fortunate people of this time, is by forming a political party in Nepal. Exactly what Banaras student did at that time. The political impact willl be the highest and most effective one.
I heard that young students from Singapore studying in UK decided to form a political party and finalised all plans in London. This party has ruled Singapore since its independece and see where they have taken their country today. The most important competivie advantage of Singapre is control of corruption.
Can we do same?
Gaule
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 11-Nov-01 05:31 PM
Gauleji:
Ground reality in Nepal militate against formation of a new political party.
Why?
First , analogy with the feat of Lee Kwan Yeu in Singapore, or of BP in Benaras fails
since the present day Nepal is not an autocrat nation like Nepal of Rana age, or
Singapore of British occupation.
Second, the image of foreign educated Nepali, in Nepal's political field, is not the
immaculate one. In fact, on the onset of democracy, there was one kind of
backlash against these US educated Nepalese in local media. The local foreign
educated intellegentia was blamed for the rampant corruption in Panchayat era,
and to some extent it was true.
Unfortunately, our society is so much in poverty and despair that only people
with rosy dreams and revolutionary far fetched ideas to distribute can attract
these dreamy hearts.
Politics has been a messy lawless enterprise in Nepal, where rational ideas are scotched by irrational minds.& To become a lawmaker, one has to say things like
"I will make dam here, and canal there" in most of 205 of our constituencies.(The
job of lawmakers is to make law,not to make dams, as we know it)
To me, development is a lengthy process. There is no short cut to development
except persevarance and hardwork. Politics in itself is nothing.Civil societies are
the ones who lead the nation in such difficult task.Creation of hardworking,
dedicated and honest civil groups should be our first step towards development.
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| arnico |
Posted
on 11-Nov-01 09:28 PM
Some thoughts for people interested in creating the groundworks for a new political party:
It cannot be something that comes in from the outside and gets "imposed"... or it won't win any election. Also, we have to be humble about our abilities and ambitions, and realize that there are also a lot of uncorrupt hardworking people in Nepal who have not risen to the top. We will have to find them, and work to gether to build up strong grassroots support. But a grassroots effort towards WHAT? What are the goals? How would one lead the country towards those goals? I think it is there that our experiences and skills will be useful.
Also, regardless of how highly we think of our own skills, we would have to establish credibility in Nepal FIRST before we would succeed in politics. That might take ten years of hardwork AFTER returning to Nepal... real hard work, and not just political speeches. One way of jump-starting that while still abroad is to write/publish papers/booklets/books about Nepal's future, about national development that we make widely available in Nepal.... written, of course, in Nepali.
That said, I think there is nothing wrong with dreaming and discussing NOW about IF we were to have the opportunity to start a new party, how would we go about doing so. At worst we would teach eachother about politics and in-fighting. Likely we would at least gain a basis of comparison for judging current parties. And at best we would be able to produce a document that shapes the foundation of a future political party that is started off by a large number of people rallying around the message in the document (and not just by the authors of the document)...
Arnico
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| Michael |
Posted
on 12-Nov-01 01:43 PM
some pretty big talkers building huge sand castles on the beach. But that all it going to be cause when the tide comes in it will all be washed over. Then we' ll have another group of daydreamers. All have the ideas the size of the planet earth but the ego's propelling those ideas are as big as the sun.
Your whole my idea is better than yours mentality is what is ruining your society. People do not have respect for each other. Everything is mediocre.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 13-Nov-01 05:27 AM
Despite the usual sniffs and snuffles from our favorite Mike Bhinaju here,
I, for one, have a lot of faith in Arnico as a person, NO MATTER what his
dreams for Nepal are.
Arnico is one of those rock-solid guys, whose counsel I, as a friend, have
long valued, even when at times I have failed to follow his advice at my own
risk.
A parallel example: America's leading venture capitalists (VCs) say that when
they decide to fund a company to the tune of millions of dollars, their decision is
guided NOT by the validity or even the quality of the entrepreneurs' ideas (which are dime a dozen!) but by the quality of those entrepreneurs themselves.
In other words, VCs back people and NOT companies.
Likewise, I, as a Nepali working in Nepal, would be happy to back/support
and work with someone like Arnico and hundreds of other Arnicos out there.
The quality of their dreams are less important than qualities they possess
themselves.
Again, not to be gushing about one's Nepali friends, but I have long been saying to many others that two of the smartest Nepalis I have ever met in my life are: Arnico and BP, though I can easily see both of them protesting against my
saying that here.
And, just to be clear: I don't mean "smart" in terms of big universities attended, and all that usual stuff (which is a relatively easy achievment): I mean, "smart" in
terms of an ability to conceptualize issues amazingly well.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| arnico |
Posted
on 13-Nov-01 12:00 PM
To be attacked by Ashu in public would be embarassing, but at least BP and I would have lots of company in GBNC, as well as a good reason to start writing satire! BUT… to be put up on a pedestal by him, a pedestal that I don’t qualify for, and don’t deserve… gee I don’t even know how to react with embarassment…
To reply to Michael: I thank you for your concern, and look forward to your continued support. It is useful to have people playing devil’s advocate, and pointing out possible trouble ahead. You are so right, dream sandcastles do get washed out to sea again, so we have to work efficiently if we want them to serve as models for real castles in the future. Building lots of sandcastles also helps with figuring out many details of the real future castles, including whether their defenses are strong enough against unexpected attacks.
As for your concern about a “my idea is better than yours” mentality… I fear that I don’t know what are talking about, at least in this and other similar threads from recent days. I think the whole point of such discussions is to write one’s ideas to hear back from people who have BETTER ideas and comments.
As I don’t know you personally, I can only speculate as to who you are, where you are from, and why you have such a pessimistic attitude about Nepal. At this point I don’t know whether you are just a pseudonym for an unhappy US based Nepali, whether you are a Nepali Christian who suffered religious persecution, whether you are a current or former expatriate “aid worker” or a former peace-corp volunteer who had a particularly bad experience… or someone else. Until you enlighten us about your identity, we have to keep replying as if you might be all of the above… that is if and when we want to bother to reply.
I think this thread is turning into a conversation among a very small number of people, so should we bring it to an end soon and continue about individual topics in different threads?
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| BP |
Posted
on 13-Nov-01 01:18 PM
I must be smarter than Arnicoji, because I totally see where Ashu is coming from. Yes, I am the smartest. :)
No, but seriously, I am just having a good time on this site. I don't even have anything to say on this topic here. I seriously lack "well-roundedness." But can somebody tell me anything about the Nepali stock market? Is it worthwhile investing in it?
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| BP |
Posted
on 13-Nov-01 01:21 PM
You know something, it is a lot easier to be confrontational when you don't know who you are arguing against. Even on this forum, when I find out I know someone, I tend to agree with him/her more. This must be a well-described phenomenon that a literary major like ANepaliKT would know. Can you please diagnose my problem? Careful, I mean just this "bias in argument" thing.
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| NK |
Posted
on 13-Nov-01 01:22 PM
Invest in European Market. That is the best bet in the present situation. That is all I have to say. Otherwise my lack of knowledge might unravel here.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 13-Nov-01 09:38 PM
>To be attacked by Ashu in public would be
>embarassing, but at least BP and I would
>have lots of company in GBNC, as well as a
>good reason to start writing satire!
Hey Arnico,
One thing I am going to push relentlessly here is
that disagreeing -- even strongly, vehemently and heatedly-
with a person on idea A does NOT mean the same as
wholly attacking that person.
I mean, one can disagree on ideas and concepts
BUT still remain good, strong friends. This has certainly
been my experience in the US and also in Nepal.
And such a mindset is one relatively Western CULTURAL
trait I hope we in Nepal import more and more of. Such
a cultural trait would help us NOT think issues ONLY in terms of
"either-or" or "black/white" but help us deal with ambiguities,
complexities, uncertainties and "grey areas" -- all of which
come up all the time when trying to do anything worthwhile
in Nepal
Problems start to crop up when emotionally insecure
people start equating PUBLIC demolition/disagreement of
their ideas with attacks on their very personality. Fortunately,
such people can be EXPOSED to forums like this where there is this FREE
exchange of ideas, and, over time, some of those people do find a
productively happy niche writing plays, and that's GOOD.
If some people continue to feell khattam just because someone out there
publicly DISAGREES with them with reason, then, it's their problem
and they should be responsible for their own emotions.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| anepalikt |
Posted
on 13-Nov-01 10:22 PM
Couple of things to a couple of people before going back to the original post.
BP: They DO say it IS generally easier to be confrontational when you don't know who you are arguing against. But I personally have no problem with that [so watch it!:-)] As for a diagnosis, hmmmm. Softie! What do you say, Ashu?
Ashu: Okay, now I want to call YOU on the rather snide remarks about play writing and your general patronizing and condescending tone to folks who you say are misunderstanding the attack on ideas as an attack on person.
First, I guess some write plays while others generalize when in reality they are actually making a specific personal reference!
Second, I don't think it is solely people's INSECURITEIS or their lack of EXPOSURE to forums such as these that might be inspiring some to react the way they do. Really! For example, if I had been the one who wrote a play as a reaction to whatever was going on in a thread and I read your above comments, I would take it TERRIBLY personally. It would not have much to do with what you SAY, but HOW you say it.
So anyhow, I suggest checking both I and E quotients of your comments whenever someone reacts unexpectedly.
Arnico: I did not see anyone respond to the idea of forming a political party. But I loved your ideas about a mission driven party "giving people hope, with inside-party accountability mechanisms that ensure that election slogans are met? A party that controls corruption among its own members?" Yes, why not, I suggest starting another thread to get people's input as beginning fodder!!
|
| arnico |
Posted
on 13-Nov-01 10:49 PM
Well... I think this thread IS coming to a point where it may no longer be worth maintaining in the top 25 list on the front page of kurakani... it's now got too many topics shooting off of it, which are best addressed in threads of their own.
----
A brief reply to Ashu: I fully AGREE that we as a Nepali community have a need to continue to strengthen the culture of discussing ideas without getting personal, just as Michael, too, had pointed out. But, for consistency, that should include judging ideas independently of who brought them up, shouldn't it? ... and judging each future idea independently as well, rather than writing million dollar blank cheques in advance, no?
(If you would like to debate this point further, or hear a more full reaction from me, then please e-mail me)
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| arnico |
Posted
on 13-Nov-01 11:36 PM
Anepalikt: I was writing my last reply when you posted yours, so I did not get a chance to reply.
Anepalikt and Siwalik: Both of you expressed an interest in #5 (how to design/build a political party that does positive things for Nepal)... it is an area where I see a need, but have little formal training or experience myself. I urge one of you to start a thread on this topic, and I will join in, and hopefully we can get an interesting discussion going among the larger GBNC community.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 14-Nov-01 08:47 AM
anepalikt wrote:
>Ashu: Okay, now I want to call YOU on the rather snide remarks about
>play writing and your general patronizing and condescending tone to folks who >you say are misunderstanding the attack on ideas as an attack on person.
>First, I guess some write plays while others generalize when in reality they are >actually making a specific personal reference!
For the record, I never even for a moment said that the play was making
a personal reference, and never even became defensive about it in any
way.
If anything, I had had a good laugh, and said that I ENJOYED the play and forwarded it to many friends. Are you saying that even as a visitor here, I am
not even allowed to enjoy a play?
>Second, I don't think it is solely people's INSECURITEIS or their lack of >EXPOSURE to forums such as these that might be inspiring some to react the
> way they do.
Look at the UML party in Nepal -- Nepal's largest communist party.
Up till the mid-90s or so, these guys were so emotionally insecure that they
used to show raw, reptilian emotions in public at the hint of ANY
legislative/political disagreement.
And they showed such emotions by breaking steet-side railings in urban centers, smashing telephone booths, hurling stones at public buses, and basically vandalizing public and private properties.
Now, these guys don't do that kind of stuff anymore.
To their credit, the UML guys have been, for the last few years, much more civilized and are relatively well-behaved than they were before.
Why is that?
I would argue that the UML guys have realized that showing raw, reptilian emotions and vandalizing stuff does NOT pay in an OPEN, democratic system
like ours, where we value a FREE exchange of ideas and where our press is unfettered.
This OPEN, democratic sysem with a free press has forced the UML to soften their rigidity, their radicalism, their raw, reptilian anger -- at least in public, and, though they are not perfect, we now have a much more responsible opposition than we used to have. This is the slow but inevitable MATURATION that democracy and openness brings.
This is one excellent example of what an OPEN, DEMOCRATIC system can do.
After all, think about this: just as marriage civilizes lust, and just as free markets civilize greed, an open, democratic system like this Web site ultimately
helps cilivilizes some people's raw, reptilian emotions -- and that's GOOD.
After all, if some people find comfort in writing plays to vent their whatever anger, then, what's wrong with that? I, for one, would APPLAUD such efforts.
>Really! For example, if I had been the one who wrote a play as a
> reaction to whatever was going on in a thread and I read your above >comments, I would take it TERRIBLY personally. It would not have much to
>do with what you SAY, but HOW you say it.
>So anyhow, I suggest checking both I and E quotients of your comments >whenever someone reacts unexpectedly.
Now that you mention it, let me provide a little background info. Having been attacked so many times on this site by the usual and not-so-usual people, I
am happy to have a strategy to cope quite well with all these attacks and
more.
(Look, I have no problem admitting my mistakes in public openly and clearly and
learning from them. After all, hey, I make tons of mistakes all the time, and
making mistake is one way I learn new things fast. Likewise, I have no problem
accepting and tolerating other people's mistakes too, if we all learn from those mistakes.
But I have little respect for people trying to be too clever and too sneaky and too "unfair" to get their points across to score a few cheap points IN PUBLIC.
I mean, that's so, well, you know, unbecoming a good Nepali!!)
When that happens, one strategy I like to borrow from chess masters and the Chinese philosopher Sun Tzu (the author of "The Art of War") is this: Push the attacker in a 'stalemate' situation in such a way that s/he cannot really complain about being counter-attacked, while at the same time cannot move anywhere
else but in the directions you want.
Using raw emotions against raw emotions and getting all mad and angry
is puerile and imbecile.
But using POSITIVE emotions to diffuse, deflate and ultimately destroy the
emotional effects of silly attacks is something we all need to learn more of, especially if we have aspirations to lead a family, to lead a company, or lead a community.
The result: You help change negative snickers into positive emotions,
while having FUN.
Anyway, these are my thoughts.
Please feel free to disagree.
Do you, by any chance, go to Brandeis -- SP?
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| anepalikt |
Posted
on 14-Nov-01 07:06 PM
Al I will say here is: kuro ra kulo lai jaha lage pani huncha.
And "No Ivy League for me, thank you! I am a commoner thru and thru!" :-)
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| BP |
Posted
on 14-Nov-01 09:39 PM
You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.
Oh hey, sorry, I am in the wrong thread. AnepaliKT's last message threw me off.
By the way Brandeis is not an Ivy League school. It is one of those silly schools for commoners.
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| anepalikt |
Posted
on 15-Nov-01 03:41 PM
Just goes to show my commoner-ness. Okay, no "brand name" school then! :)
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