| Username |
Post |
| ashu |
Posted
on 17-Nov-01 03:42 AM
Arnico wrote:
>Ashu, I think your initial reaction to
>Bahire's point is quite uncalled-for. (S)he
>POLITELY pointed out something that in his/
>her opinion would IMPROVE the quality of
>your posts. (S)he did not attack you. (S)he
>does not deserve an attack from you.
Arnico,
I see your point, but I disagree with you.
Obviously, I sensed Bahire's message DIFFERENTLY from
what you did, and different people's arriving at different
interpretations of the same posting is PERFECTLY
all right in an OPEN forum like this.
This does not bother me.
Having different interpretations of the same thing is one of
the risks of posting stuff in OPEN, unmoderated forums. I mean,
you never know how different people reading the same stuff in different
places will react, and, let us hope that Bahire too has learnt this lesson.
>I agree with Bahire: I too think it would
>be better if Ashu, or anyone else, STAYED
>AWAY FROM discussing PERSONAL information
>about people on a public forum.
You know, reading stuff on this UNMODERATED open forum
can at times be like listening in on conversations among people
who know one another quite well.
I have no problem with that.
If we try to set up rules and code of conduct and what to do and what
not to do here, pretty soon, this site will lose its color and character.
It's best for people here to discover this site's hidden code of conduct
by trial and error, by making mistakes and so on -- rather than having
those imposed from top or by one single authority.
If not, let us agree to disagree on this point.
> Perhaps
>where someone works today is valid public
>information... but where someone went to
>school, how many children they have, where
>they live... >DO NOT POST SUCH INFORMATION
>ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE in a public place!
> If
>they want to share that with the worldwide
>readers of GBNC Kurakani they can post it
>themselves.
I understand your sentiments correctly.
FYI, I did ask Yogi whether this was all right.
He did say yes, and perhaps he can clarify the
matter here himself.
Arnico, on a larger point, I am surprised that you would assume
that I would actually post personal info about others here without
FIRST consulting the concerned parties.
>Here I am NOT just referring to your
>postings in this thread or your reference to
>what kind of school I went to... but even to
>things like who San, our webmaster, went to
>school with. Is that clear?
I am sorry that that piece of info ticked you off, but
each individual is FREE here to decide for himself or herself
what s/he wants to post and what s/he does not want to
post.
If s/he wants to sound brillant, fine. If s/he wants to
make a fool of himself or herself, that is also fine.
Why can't we CONCEPTUALLY accept both outcomes
in public?
All this is called freedom of speech, and how some people
choose to exercise such freedom need NOT bother you and
me so much so that we want to change people's bahaviours!!
The hardest things to change are OTHER people's behaviours!!
>But why not??? Two reasons:
>
>1) It lowers the quality of OUR sajha GBNC
>Kurakani website. It distracts from the
>quality of the discussion (would not it have
>been better to have this thread continue
>about other nice hiking trips and about how
>much of our country we do or do not know...
I agree with your conclusion, but disagree with
your thinking process.
Quality in public discourse is achieved NOT by deciding
beforehand what's quality and what's not. That would be too
regimented and somewhat of a totalitarian approach.
Quality is achievable ONLY when reasonable, FREE people take
PUBLIC responsibility for their actions and ideas and CONTINUE
discussing and debating stuff as though there were NO end.
Certainly, this is how, to cite one example, high-quality academic
research progresses in the West.
And on this Web site, let us be HONEST enough to admit that
neither you nor I can control the FLOW and the CONTENTs of
various threads once they get going.
That being the reality, why bang our head, trying to try to control the
FLOW and the CONTENTS of these various threads?
And so, enjoy the threads, the diversions and the meandersings for what they are; ignore what's not interesting, and let everyone live happily. It's as simple
as that.
>instead of letting it go the way it did?).
>And if used in personal attacks, it POLLUTES
>our website.
Well, if you open the window to let in some fresh air,
some flies will enter too. I accept occasional bickering
and fighting and even personal attacks here as a PRICE
we have to pay for being an OPEN site.
As a visitor here, I would rarther than honest fights in PUBLIC
than artificial harmony.
Thankfully, since this is an open site, bad ideas here can be driven out by good, well-evidenced ideas, and debates and discussions go on and on in a democratic manner with NO ONE having the last say on anything.
>2) The person posting personal information
>about other people loses trust from his or
>her friends. If personal information cannot
>be treated with respect, then people will be
>hesitant to share anything with you that is
>close to their heart. Is that worth it?
I agree with your larger point, but, again,
I stand by what I wrote about Yogi, that is
with HIS knowledge.
As for winning the trust of friends, as long
as you focus on being true to them without
worrying whether they will like you or not, my
experience is that you usually end up winning
their trust and their desire to work with you
professsionally.
In the long run, to be trusted is a lot more
important than to be liked.
PS.
Arnico, thank you for your views. On another note, I do want
you to think about this: In the heyday of TND, you wrote saying
that how wonderful that medium was for young Nepalis
to network with one another for desh ko bikas. TND later
stopped functioning altogether. Of course, this was not
your fault.
You had similar hopes for SCN.
That too later went down the tubes as far as Nepal and Nepalis were
concerned. Of course, this too was not your fault.
And, after reading your posting here, I am beginning to worry that you are
raising similar high hopes about this GBNC site. Look, I have tremendous personal respect for your sincerity and intelligence, but have you ever thought
seriously about the VITAL ingredients that go into making great Web
communities?
Well, I don't know the answer myself, but I'd imagine that two attributes that
are ESSENTIAL for the vitality of any such Web-related ventures seem to be:
a) absolute no-holds-barred FREEDOM to post stuff, and, critically
b) the availability of a few 'social-glue type' characters who can hold the kurakani at the site together.
If anything, Arnico, I'd think that to improve the quality of our kurakani, we need MORE of both freedom and social-glue type' characters and LESS of "you need to do this, and you must NOT do that " type of PUBLIC preaching.
Please feel free to disagree.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 17-Nov-01 03:46 AM
>Here I am NOT just referring to your
>postings in this thread or your reference to
>what kind of school I went to... but even to
>things like who San, our webmaster, went to
>school with. Is that clear?
I am sorry that that piece of info ticked you off, but
each individual is FREE here to decide for himself or herself
what s/he wants to post and what s/he does not want to
post.
If s/he wants to sound brillant, fine. If s/he wants to
make a fool of himself or herself, that is also fine.
Why can't we CONCEPTUALLY accept both outcomes
in public?
All this is called freedom of speech, and how some people
choose to exercise such freedom need NOT bother you and
me so much so that we want to change people's bahaviours!!
The hardest things to change are OTHER people's behaviours!!
>But why not??? Two reasons:
>
>1) It lowers the quality of OUR sajha GBNC
>Kurakani website. It distracts from the
>quality of the discussion (would not it have
>been better to have this thread continue
>about other nice hiking trips and about how
>much of our country we do or do not know...
I agree with your conclusion, but disagree with
your thinking process.
Quality in public discourse is achieved NOT by deciding
beforehand what's quality and what's not. That would be too
regimented and somewhat of a totalitarian approach.
Quality is achievable ONLY when reasonable, FREE people take
PUBLIC responsibility for their actions and ideas and CONTINUE
discussing and debating stuff as though there were NO end.
Certainly, this is how, to cite one example, high-quality academic
research progresses in the West.
And on this Web site, let us be HONEST enough to admit that
neither you nor I can control the FLOW and the CONTENTs of
various threads once they get going.
That being the reality, why bang our head, trying to try to control the
FLOW and the CONTENTS of these various threads?
And so, enjoy the threads, the diversions and the meandersings for what they are; ignore what's not interesting, and let everyone live happily. It's as simple
as that.
>instead of letting it go the way it did?).
>And if used in personal attacks, it POLLUTES
>our website.
Well, if you open the window to let in some fresh air,
some flies will enter too. I accept occasional bickering
and fighting and even personal attacks here as a PRICE
we have to pay for being an OPEN site.
As a visitor here, I would rarther than honest fights in PUBLIC
than artificial harmony.
Thankfully, since this is an open site, bad ideas here can be driven out by good, well-evidenced ideas, and debates and discussions go on and on in a democratic manner with NO ONE having the last say on anything.
>2) The person posting personal information
>about other people loses trust from his or
>her friends. If personal information cannot
>be treated with respect, then people will be
>hesitant to share anything with you that is
>close to their heart. Is that worth it?
I agree with your larger point, but, again,
I stand by what I wrote about Yogi, that is
with HIS knowledge.
As for winning the trust of friends, as long
as you focus on being true to them without
worrying whether they will like you or not, my
experience is that you usually end up winning
their trust and their desire to work with you
professsionally.
In the long run, to be trusted is a lot more
important than to be liked.
PS.
Arnico, thank you for your views. On another note, I do want
you to think about this: In the heyday of TND, you wrote saying
that how wonderful that medium was for young Nepalis
to network with one another for desh ko bikas. TND later
stopped functioning altogether. Of course, this was not
your fault.
You had similar hopes for SCN.
That too later went down the tubes as far as Nepal and Nepalis were
concerned. Of course, this too was not your fault.
And, after reading your posting here, I am beginning to worry that you are
raising similar high hopes about this GBNC site. Look, I have tremendous personal respect for your sincerity and intelligence, but have you ever thought
seriously about the VITAL ingredients that go into making great Web
communities?
Well, I don't know the answer myself, but I'd imagine that two attributes that
are ESSENTIAL for the vitality of any such Web-related ventures seem to be:
a) absolute no-holds-barred FREEDOM to post stuff, and, critically
b) the availability of a few 'social-glue type' characters who can hold the kurakani at the site together.
If anything, Arnico, I'd think that to improve the quality of our kurakani, we need MORE of both freedom and social-glue type' characters here and LESS of "you need to do this, and you must NOT do that " type of PUBLIC preaching from you or from me or from anyone else.
Please feel free to disagree.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 17-Nov-01 04:03 AM
San and others,
Sorry for posting the same thing twice here.
San, could you please remove the second posting in this thread?
And this too?
ashu
|
| arnico |
Posted
on 17-Nov-01 06:03 AM
Hesitant about starting another long dialogue between two people, I will only post very short replies to some points, and I will only return to this thread if enough other people join in.
>It's best for people here to discover this
>site's hidden code of conduct
>by trial and error, by making mistakes and
>so on -- rather than having
>those imposed from top or by one single
>authority.
>
The site's code of conduct is a collective effort by its participants, created by its participants, and amended, if necessary, by its participants. This allows participants to make suggestions for improvement... and if lots of people agree, then perhaps these become part of the new code of conduct... Suggesting that writers beware of posting personal information about other people is such a suggestion -- a suggestion that calls for alertness by the posters; it has nothing to do with imposition from the top or by a single authority.
>FYI, I did ask Yogi whether this was all
>right.
>He did say yes, and perhaps he can clarify
>the
>matter here himself.
>
All right, I apologize for assuming you were writing about him without his consent. However, my agreement with Bahire's suggestion remains that anyone (not just Ashu) posting on the Kurakani forum be alert about posting personal information about other people, and the suggestion remains that anyone (not just Ashu) use some self-restraint in the manner of expressing disagreement.
>And on this Web site, let us be HONEST
>enough to admit that
>neither you nor I can control the FLOW and
>the CONTENTs of
>various threads once they get going.
...except by making people angry and making sure people stop discussing the topic they started with and start fighting eachother ... THAT, we have seen, is easy to do. Yes, sometimes meanders in conversations can bring out new things that the person starting a thread did not anticipate (one such example is the banana cake recipe, which I probably will try out) ... BUT when many online discussions degenerate into fights, then THAT brings negative publicity to GBNC, even IF participation in this GBNC forum is not limited to Boston area Nepalis.
>Well, if you open the window to let in some
>fresh air,
>some flies will enter too. I accept
>occasional bickering
>and fighting and even personal attacks here
>as a PRICE
>we have to pay for being an OPEN site.
>
...that is what window screens are for: let the fresh air in, and keep the flies out.
I am not suggesting that San write some sophisticated code that blocks personal attacks... I just want to repeat the suggestion that some self-restraint on behalf of writers would make the site a more pleasant place for all of us.
>If anything, Arnico, I'd think that to
>improve the quality of our kurakani, we need
>MORE of both freedom and social-glue type'
>characters and LESS of "you need to do this,
>and you must NOT do that " type of PUBLIC
>preaching.
>
But part of such freedom includes the ability to suggest self-restraint. Having one's posting torn to shreds for daring to suggest that does NOT promote freedom, does it? There is a difference between a well-functioning democracy and anarchy.
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 17-Nov-01 09:14 AM
Arnico wrote:
>The site's code of conduct is a collective
>effort by its participants, created by its
>participants, and amended, if necessary, by
>its participants.
Arnico,
Let me give a specific example of what I meant:
This site, for example, has NO official policy against
racism, sexism and so on.
As a visitor, does that bother me?
No.
Why?
Because I am confident that, IN PRACTICE, with so many good
people here, racism and sexism will be booted down as soon as they
rear their ugly head here. And such booting down has happened
here in recent past, as we all know.
And so, the price for democracy here is eternal vigilance on
the part of all of us, and NOT a pre-cooked rulebook of good
manners for all.
As such, despite our preference for order and calm, we cannot
codify the naure of such eternal vigilance ahead of time, and we might
as well accept that as such.
But what we CAN do is make sure that we have got the
FUNDAMENTALS properly aligned with our democratic
values.
And those fundamentals are:
a) Freedom of speech, and,
b) relentless pursuit of truth.
Compared to these two, all other things are of
secondary concerns.
>This allows participants
>to make suggestions for improvement... and
>if lots of people agree, then perhaps these
>become part of the new code of conduct...
This is fine in theory, but I am skeptical as to how this works
out in practice.
For starters, I would always be wary of tyranny of the
majority in any situation. The beauty of this OPEN site is
that NO ONE can be a monopolist here and that we all have EQUAL
opportunity to post whatever we want, whether our views
agrees with the majority opinion or not.
I, for one, am for keeping it that way.
>Suggesting that writers beware of posting
>personal information about other people is
>such a suggestion -- a suggestion that calls
>for alertness by the posters; it has nothing
>to do with imposition from the top or by a
>single authority.
I agree.
Having convinced by you, I have decided to NOT
post potentially irrelevant personal details here. But
I do post such stuff, then please let me know so that
I can make corrections and turn this into a habit.
>All right, I apologize for assuming you were
>writing about him without his consent.
I accept your apology.
I have requested my friend to post his thoughts
as well.
>However, my agreement with Bahire's
>suggestion remains that anyone (not just
>Ashu) posting on the Kurakani forum be alert
>about posting personal information about
>other people, and the suggestion remains
>that anyone (not just Ashu) use some self-
>restraint in the manner of expressing
>disagreement.
Agreed.
But quite truthfully, unlike you, I never for a moment
really thought bahire was actually offering a serious
suggestion. If anything, I would think that you have
further taken his posting seriously and sincerely to give
it some weight and have fully convinced me, and I appreciate
it.
That said, I agree with you both on matters of
sharing personal info in public space, though, UNLIKE both
of you, I would NOT tell people what they info should post
and what they should not. I would leave such decisions to
their own judgment and discretion
My attitude is: Let people make their own mistakes and
let them learn from their mistakes, and that is what this P2P site
can be about anyway.
>>And on this Web site, let us be HONEST
>>enough to admit that
>>neither you nor I can control the FLOW and
>>the CONTENTs of
>>various threads once they get going.
>
>...except by making people angry and making
>sure people stop discussing the topic they
>started with and start fighting eachother ...
Look, Arnico, NOBODY likes fighting.
Let's get that clear.
That said, it's a regrettable fact of life that when
adult human beings disagree with one another,
there is bound to be some friction, some tension
and even a vicious jhagada or two.
Now, if you are saying that there should NOT be any
friction, any tension or any jhagada AT ALL, then
I am sorry to say that you are NOT being realistic
about the nature of FREE adults in a democratic
environment.
I would further say that with such an idealistic
attitude, you will probably not do very well
professionally or personally in Nepal where the harsh
REALITY IS THAT in order to achieve your whatever aims,
you have to be forever prepared to deal with other
people's jhagada all the time and use your intelligence to
deflate/diffuse or manage them with great emotional skills.
(One of my friends who is an electrical engineer in Lamjung
says that MORE than half the work he does to get bijuli
in villages there consists of "jhagada management" among
various competing groups, and "jhagada management" was
NOT what he studied at all at his university in the US.)
And so, how one manages or diffuses or deflates the friction,
the tension and the jhagada in PUBLIC is, I have discovered,
the kind of emotional skill (that even Harvard does not teach)
and we -- if we are serious about Nepal ko bikas -- all need to learn
it well.
And the best time to learn it is NOW the one good way is to learn it by
being EXPOSED to the mini-versions of such friction, the tension and
the jhagadas IN PUBLIC such as on this site.
Viewed this way, I am prepared to accept the friction,
the tension and the jhagada here as NECESSARY evils that can
only help us all deal with the kind of jhagadas we will surely
encounter in ore vicious forms in our professional lives in
Nepal.
> THAT, we have seen, is easy to do. Yes,
>sometimes meanders in conversations can
>bring out new things that the person
>starting a thread did not anticipate (one
>such example is the banana cake recipe,
>which I probably will try out) ...
I'd be interested to hear how the cake turns out. :-)
> BUT when
>many online discussions degenerate into
>fights, then THAT brings negative publicity
>to GBNC,
>even IF participation in this GBNC
>forum is not limited to Boston area Nepalis.
No, I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Just as democracy itself has NOT brought nagative
publicity for Nepal in the world market, openness
and inclusiveness will also NOT bring negative
publicity for the GBNC among competing Web sites.
We just have to have faith that people will ultimately
see the truth as that: The truth.
>>Well, if you open the window to let in some
>
>fresh air,
>>some flies will enter too. I accept
>>occasional bickering
>>and fighting and even personal attacks here
>
>as a PRICE
>>we have to pay for being an OPEN site.
>>
>
>...that is what window screens are for: let
>the fresh air in, and keep the flies out.
Well, you can only take an analogy so far before
it starts being interpreted literally :-)
That analogy, by the way, comes from China's President
who is now all for open markets.
>I am not suggesting that San write some
>sophisticated code that blocks personal
>attacks... I just want to repeat the
>suggestion that some self-restraint on
>behalf of writers would make the site a more
>pleasant place for all of us.
Sure, we can all use a bit of self-restraint.
But it's just that I don't like public preaching about how one should
change/modify one's behaviours and stuff like that. And I say that
after accepting how hard it is to change OTHER people's bahaviours by
preaching and moral exhortations.
At any rate, our job here is NOT to make life always easy for one
another.
If anything, it is to challange our assumptions, defend our beliefs,
examine our values and so on and on. And doing any of that OPENLY
and consistently in public is a RISKY thing, and we might as well
accept that as such.
You said earlier that this site has now attracted "the best and
brightest" of young Nepalis.
If so, I would go one step further to say this: With freedom of speech
and the pursuit of truth as our ONLY fundamental values here, let the
best and the brightest do whatever they want to do here.
Unlike a university or a formal organization, this site is NOT a closed entity,
and its very open-ness opens up tons of opportunities to learn from one
another, to even disagree wth one another and even do intellectual jhagada
with one another WITHOUT ever losing personal respect for one another.
That's the kind of ideal I, for one, would like to aspire for, though others
may prefer something else.
>But part of such freedom includes the
>ability to suggest self-restraint. Having
>one's posting torn to shreds for daring to
>suggest that does NOT promote freedom, does
>it?
Please see my response above.
>There is a difference between a well-
>functioning democracy and anarchy.
Well, funny you should mention anarchy.
My views on this matter have been completely changed
by Harvard philosopher Robert Nozick's book: "Anarchy, State
and Utopia" in which he argues, quite persuasively, for liberty
and liberty alone, and almost no control to achieve the best for
a human society.
Thanks Arnico for your views. I apologize that I got into this 'state of flow'
of posting my this long response to you.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| Observer |
Posted
on 17-Nov-01 12:06 PM
If GBNC is such a "democratic" site, why do visitors and posters have to go through abuse by Ashu - who needs to prove that he's the epitomy of all greatness that exists and who knows everything. As in any "democratic" community, there needs to be a system to deal with "bullies" like ashu, who take advantage of free space like this to continue their self-grandize himself. How about we vote him out of this site like in a real world democracy? If this is really a democratic site as claimed by various individuals, the majority should be allowed to make decisions regarding "housekeeping" work as well.
What do you say????
|
| wonderer |
Posted
on 17-Nov-01 12:11 PM
i agree with u observer..it is high time we started implementing real world democracy in this discussion section..why do we have to go thru' all those ashu's and NK's bull shit ?? Don't care who they are ! for us they are just another discussant ..
|
| _BP |
Posted
on 17-Nov-01 04:30 PM
Come on Observer. What's the big deal. Let Ashu, NK, AnepaliKT, Biswo, etc write what they want. I don't know about you, but I am not one to bring up a lot of topics of discussion, but I sure do enjoy contributing a little here and there. How in the world can Ashu bully you on this site? You don't have to read his contributions. Is there a space restriction on this site? Obviously Ashu loves this site, and I have a suspicion that he would be missed if he decided to stop writing. You cannot fault him for contributing a lot, or for his style of writing! If people have personal beef with him, just send him and e-mail. I am sure he will write back privately.
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 18-Nov-01 07:58 AM
Very well said, BP, very well said.
The idea that one can post as much as one wants here, and there would STILL
be all this room for others too to post their stuff here seems to be a deceptively difficult one for some of our fellow-Nepalis to understand here.
Live and let live, and let people do what they want as long as no laws
are violated.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| PDK |
Posted
on 18-Nov-01 03:15 PM
Ashu, you intimidate me. And now you have a high school friend BP... it makes you more stronger than anyone else. Maybe I should start another discussion about how not to get intimidated by people like ashu.... and i really would like Ashu's response.
|
| _BP |
Posted
on 18-Nov-01 03:44 PM
PDK, I think and hope you were trying to be funny. This is "our" website. We don't need to have divisions in here. I just come here to fraternize with fellow Nepalis, not to form a clique! I am mature, no plain old, for crying out loud.
|
