| Username |
Post |
| anepalikt |
Posted
on 21-Nov-01 07:57 PM
Dear folks:
I am writing because I am really realy really pissed off right now and thought an open letter appealing to all who visit this site might help alliviate some of the anger and frustration I feel. Basically the issue here is again a post from some looser in the thread I started about growing up female in nepal.
I thought it would be interesting and fun to hear women talk about their experiences and share stories. The thread has not gotten a whole lot of responses, but then it is the beginning of a holiday weekend for those here in the States and for those in Nepal it is still night time; but as I speculated in the thread itself, maybe the lack of response is an indication that Nepali women don't feel comfortable talking abotu such an issue in a public forum!
How right I was proved when that above mentioned sick sociopath posted a hatred filled really really frieghtening peice about how he hates women, how they should be locked up and killed. And that he needs to get laid and does anyone want to f**k.
Wow! Where is that hatred and filth coming from? What kind of people are these?
I guess one experience every young girl growing up in Nepal has is the devastating and frightening experience of gender discrimination, sexual harassment and mysogyny at the hands of people like the above mentioned poster. People who terrorized and continue to terrorize young women; boys bred to beieve that they are above the rules; people who hide behind their brothers and freinds to pass sexist and derogatory remarks at young school girl; sexually repressed and frustrated men who grope at young girls and old women alike in crowded buses and temple courtyards.
I am angry yes, but I am also ashamed, disgusted and thoroughly saddened that my fellow countryman thinks of me, my sisters, my mother, his mother, his sister the way he does.
I know there have been ample discussions in this site before about freedom of speech and expression. Yes and I did tell mysel, let it slide. but no, I am not goign to sit back and let this go by.
This is the kind of stuff that normalizes violence against women. This is the kind of stuff that keeps Nepal in the dark ages. This is the kind of individual act of irresponsibilyt that erodes our culture and any hope for positive social strides.
It is not okay even in jest to say kill women and mutilate them. The fear of rape, mutilation, murder is a reality that women have to live with everyday, every time they step ut of their homes and even in their homes at times. Let us please not trivialize it! And if whoever the poster was and means what he posted, well, please Site Administrator, please pay heed and someone please alert the authorities!
Maybe my response is over the top for an insipid post by a sick, sociaopathic, sad sad soul who obviously thinks that he can get away with saying irresponsible, hateful and friegthenign things just because he is in a largely annonymous forum. But I want to call each and everyone of you to remember that without setting communtiy standards and policing ourselves we are lost.
Last week there was a thread where folks talked abotu self improvement, self policiing and improving our human condition through. I want to remind folks that unless we take responsibiluty for what is said and done in a forum such as this, both as individual posters and well as a community, we might as well give up on this site and any hope for positive change in Nepal and the communties we live in.
If you have reached this far, please know that I appreciate it and I thank you and wish you a great turkey day!
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| nepaliketa |
Posted
on 21-Nov-01 08:14 PM
Don't let some idiot with a small mind worry you too much. There are plenty of guys who don't think that way. It is true that heterosexual men do get angry at women from time to time when they feel rejected by the opposite sex, but most eventually find a girl that accepts them and so their anger subsides. It is losers who can't find a girl that turn to hate as a way to cope. Don't let loser ruin your mood. Unfortunately, they will always exist. Human nature is not an easily changeable. There will always be the "haves and have nots" and this unchangeable fact will keep the conflict going forever. My suggestions: focus on the positive and just accept those things you cannot change. Look at the whole thing as a big test to your sanity.
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| GP |
Posted
on 21-Nov-01 08:39 PM
Nepaliketa wrote:
Unfortunately, they will always exist.
---
This is objectionable comment. This is very plain and
great negligence on your side. No one denies that
they will exist, but, in what ratio? 1 in 3 or 1 in 10 or
1 in 100 or 1 in 1000?
ANepaliKt is probably asking this number should be
lowered, not neglected just the you proposed. Today,
the ratio is very high, whether you accept or reject.
It exists so much, that you take it easily, and after
all, we all accept corruptions in govt. office "tyasto
thorai talab chha, alikati ghus nakhayera ke garun ta?",
and " he was rejected by girls, tyasto lekcha nai?".
Today, we should gurantee that a girl with just a mini
skirt can walk in the street of KTM with any hinderance.
(this is any extreme example). But, she shoudl be
secured. Today, Nepal is so unsecured, I can not
walk after 7pm, all peoples at home start making
telephone calls searching you. Can we imagine of
making our society, well, Japan still has, I had see
several times in Japan, at 1 am girls walk in street
with loud laugh, no one dares to tease them? even
at 1 a.m . Sunsan road ma. In my country, I can not
walk at 7pm?
Don't take things so easily, buddy.
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| GP |
Posted
on 21-Nov-01 08:42 PM
Corrected version:
Nepaliketa wrote:
Unfortunately, they will always exist.
---
This is objectionable comment. This is very plain and
great negligence on your side. No one denies that
they will exist, but, in what ratio? 1 in 3 or 1 in 10 or
1 in 100 or 1 in 1000?
ANepaliKt is probably asking this number should be
lowered, not neglected just the you proposed. Today,
the ratio is very high, whether you accept or reject.
It exists so much, that you take it easily, and after
all, we all accept corruptions in govt. office "tyasto
thorai talab chha, alikati ghus nakhayera ke garun ta?",
and " he was rejected by girls, tyasto lekcha nai?".
Today, we should gurantee that a girl with just a mini
skirt can walk in the street of KTM without any hinderance.
(this is an extreme example). But, she shoudl be
secured. Today, Nepal is so unsecured, I as a male can not
walk after 7pm, all peoples at home start making
telephone calls searching you. Can we imagine of
making our society, well, like Japan, where I had seen
several times in Japan, even at 1 am girls walk in street
with loud laugh, no one dares to tease them? Even
at 1 a.m . Its just 1 a.m. not broadday light. imagine.
Sunsan road ma. In my country, I can not
walk at 7pm?
Don't take things so easily, buddy.
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| arnico |
Posted
on 21-Nov-01 11:50 PM
anepalikt,
I understand how you feel, and agree that THIS is a time when we need a strong community asserting what kind of behavior is acceptable, and what is not.
Sexual harassment, whether physical or verbal, is a real problem in Nepali society (as well as in many others) and needs to be addressed as any other real problem. Unfortunately there are too many guys who grew up without learning enough about what is acceptable and what is not, and who have gotten away with too much for too long. For those participating on this board, if they did not learn earlier they need to learn now. Both from women sharing how painful it is (that is not something that naturally occurs to all men), and from fellow men making clear what is acceptable and what is not.
I saw the thread about women growing up in Nepal when you first started it, and was looking forward to sitting and reading and learning. Part of building a stronger community includes sharing and learning from eachother. Although the timing might not be optimal for getting lots of people in the US to be online, I do urge you, to please restart or continue it.
As for le chef du nuit and Anand Agrawal ... if either of you is reading this: from your postings it is starting to look like you may be isolating yourself from society (society of men AND women) too much to live healthily in it. I don't know why that is, but know from my own computer code writing marathons that it can happen easily, without one's full realization. Please accept a friendly suggestion to seek professional counseling BEFORE you do more harm to yourself and to others. If you have no experience with this, or otherwise would like some advice, please e-mail me personally (and I will keep our communication confidential).
Happy thanksgiving, everyone.
Arnico.
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| le chef du nuit |
Posted
on 22-Nov-01 12:24 AM
i guess different people have different sense of whats funny and whats not
and i guess different people have different ways of expressing their views
anepalikt's outrage is directred at a certain section of an earlier post of mine, where i posted what would seem as grossly misogynistic, if you were to read just that little section
now, lemme say this first before i explain everything else
i am very sorry if you thought that those 4 lines express my inner desires. i am not violent, and i certainly dont hate women. if you were offended by those lines, i very sincerely apologize.
but also do look at the whole post in general
a post that starts with "ewwwwww, girls, they are nasty" is not something i thought people would take seriously at all. all i wanted to do was make fun OF MYSOGYNISTS. maybe point out what they lose when they take the other sex for granted (hence the signature about needing to get laid). it was not meant to be offensive. i dont want to lock up women and throw the key away. i wouldnt want that.
maybe i have a twisted way of expressing myself, and maybe im not exactly good at irony. but please, if you HAVE to be pissed off, please be angry at a bad joke, not a bad person
thanks
ajaya panday
kirksville, mo
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| _BP |
Posted
on 22-Nov-01 12:47 AM
I don't know Ajaya. 3 posts on the same stupid theme was a bit too much, even for a corny joke, especially on a topic that was obviously meant to be serious. You're not getting any sympathy from me. Sorry.
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| le chef du nuit |
Posted
on 22-Nov-01 12:53 AM
im not asking for your sympathy
like i said, if someones offended, im sorry
i dont expect you to side with me, and say that what i posted was indeed funny
if you dont think it was, well it wasnt
just dont pass judgement on me on the basis of those posts
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| anepalikt |
Posted
on 22-Nov-01 01:12 AM
To The Night Chef, aka Ajaya Panday:
I am not sure what you think is funny about mutilating and killing women. I don't get it.
You said: "anepalikt's outrage is directred at a certain section of an earlier post of mine. and "do look at the whole post in general".
I did. And I noticed all the three posts in the said thread pretty much said the same thing.
There is no explanation necessary from you. I am not interested in your reasoning. Often people do something and then start back tracking to justify the original action. This might be the case here with you. Maybe not. But I really am not interested. Please keep your apologies. I am not a priest and I cannot absolve you of your guilt, if you feel any that is.
Instead I request that you to be conscious of the effect you have on others, to take responsibiliuty for what you do when you think noone is looking.
The fact that you thought it okay to write what you did said it all. I really was upset and offended and sad.
I am not sure why others visit this site, but I visit this site for a community of sorts. I think we do have something going here which is really positive and would hate to see it destroyed. People can marginalize themselves and alienate others. But even in a virtual and largely annonymous forum such as this, there is a real community and that community can set standards and choose what is and is not okay. Being alone and isolated is no fun. So, good luck to you, the night chef. I really hope you heed what Arnico said above.
And thank you Nepaliketa, GP, Arnico and BP. Talk to you all sometime.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 22-Nov-01 01:19 AM
>agree that
>THIS is a time when we need a strong
>community asserting what kind of behavior is
>acceptable, and what is not.
Arnico,
I agree with your conclusions, but, please, let us NOT
mimic socialism on the way to your conclusions.
And I say that even as one constant target of
attacks here.
The best way to deal with such pathetic
attacks here is NOT by instituting guidelines
and what not (as you seem to propose again and again),
but by allowing, allowing, allowing many FREE and GOOD
people to give a damn and take a stand IN PUBLIC here
in their own voice, if not in their own identities.
An OPEN society like this is simply NOT amenable to
closed guidelines!!
And I am not saying that in a vaccuum!
For instance, we already have clear evidence that this OPEN approach
seems to be working here. For example, when the president of
GBNC was unfairly attacked here, we all know that there was so
much outpouring of support against such attacks.
Now, did Bik -- the victim -- campaign for his own support?
I don't think so.
Ditto for the case when Anand Agrawal attacked me.
Without my asking anyone, many known and unknown
people defended me against those attacks here.
How do you think that happen?
Again, ONLY in an OPEN, democratic society where people are free
and people give a damn are we likely to find -- after some trial and error
and after making some mistakes here and there -- the "acceptable"
behaviours on everyone's part.
And I am happy to see glimmers of such behaviours here in this OPEN
space.
Still, let the experiment continue.
I urge anepalikt NOT to be fazed at all by or even be impatient with these
silly attacks and digressions.
If my experience is any guide, you just have to have faith there are
too many GOOD people out there who have read and who are reading
your postings silently and quietly . . . and are SMART enough NOT to be
swept away by the occasional garbage that comes in this open space here.
Please continue your thread without worrying about posters like Anand
Agarwal or LCN
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| arnico |
Posted
on 22-Nov-01 02:43 AM
With apologies to anepalikt for side-tracking the direction of the thread, I would like to write a brief reply to Ashu:
Ashu, let us once and for all AGREE THAT WE DISAGREE in the WORDING of what makes a better community, and henceforth stop boring the rest of the community with a discussion about this. I talk about setting guidelines among ourselves… by ourselves, for ourselves, in the way that we together think is right. You call for complete freedom of speech, with self-policing by the community. I think we are talking about the same thing, except that you see my attempts at self-policing as a threat to your freedom of speech. I think anytime self-policing situations arise, it is precisely because someone has crossed a line that we together agree exists. What is wrong with expressing that line in words, being clear about what we as a community consider to be disrespect or harrassment, and don't want among us... as a guideline for writers to think about when they are writing (and NOT as a law!).
Anepalikt, I share your views about the sense of community being built on this site. In fact, I probably come here too often for my own good...
Arnico.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 22-Nov-01 03:25 AM
Arnico,
I sense that you are getting impatient, and
I am sorry to be a real jackass about this.
>I talk about setting guidelines
>among ourselves… by ourselves, for ourselves,
> in the way that we together think is right.
My point is: We are ALREADY doing it -- slowly but surely --
without anyone forcing guidelines down our neck. I gave
you real examples -- drawn from recent discussions
here -- in support of that point.
Sure, our pace of self-policing may be slow for you, but
that slowness is to be expected and accepted in an
OPEN forum like this.
More than "guidelines" in a "one-size-is-acceptable-to-all" format,
what I call for is more free and frank exchange of ideas by more
Nepalis here.
Let us instead devise strategies to recruit more people, especially those in authority in Nepal, here. I am open to such ideas!!
> You call for complete freedom of speech,
>with self-policing by the community. I
>think we are talking about the same thing,
We agree on the ends, but NOT on the means.
And, to me, this is really an important distinction.
>except that you see my attempts at self-
>policing as a threat to your freedom of
>speech.
Well, my greatest fear is NOT about my personal
freedom of speech here.
My greatest fear is that when we, as a Web community, implement
your ideas, then it will open MORE doors for this tyranny of majority to take place here, and that will -- in the glorious of name of "acceptable behaviours" -- will
go on to justify stamping out disagreeable ideas, minority opinions and much, much else besides. When that happens, we will lose the very color, the very character of this site. So, in the name of doing good, we may unwittingly do
bad, and we should guard against this.
That is my greatest fear, and, so far, you have given me no reason
to quell it.
Moreover, the reason I am being such a jackass about freedom of speech
for self-policing people is that I have experienced FIRSTHAND, and that too at GBNC three years ago, how even good-intentioned alternatives to FOS end up
as tools for authoritarianism in the hands of even so-called good people.
What's more, I don't trust even Ashutosh Tiwari to make acceptable-to-all
guideliness for all to adopt here :-)
> What is wrong with expressing
>that line in words, being clear about what
>we as a community consider to be disrespect
>or harrassment, and don't want among us...
>as a guideline for writers to think about
>when they are writing (and NOT as a law!).
I don't know why anyone would want to spend their
time drafting such "do's and don'ts".
Who are we -- either individually or collectively -- to say to anyone
what to post and what not to post here? We can ONLY comment on
postings AFTER they have been posted.
And so, I am big on leaving posting decisions to the DISCRETION and the JUDGEMENT of individual posters who post at their own risk and who have to
learn to accept both the positive and negative outcomes.
Neither you nor I nor anyone else should feel responsible for
the contents of OTHER PEOPLE's postings.
And when we are NOT responsible, why should be bothered enough to tell others what they should post and what they should not post?
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| _BP |
Posted
on 22-Nov-01 05:16 AM
Hey, good morning! Another late night at work for me. Just wandering in. Ashu and Arnico, maybe I am a little dense, or maybe I gloss over the subtleties of semantics, but how exactly do you guys differ?
I don't think there will be any rules regarding the posts here. How are they going to be enforced? By making everyone register? And I don't think either of you are suggesting this.
I think we get sidetracked a lot in these discussions here, I have noticed. Every now and then a bad apple says something stupid to try and attract attention, then a bunch of us will embark on a philosophical discussion. Ummmmm...why? Seems like a lot of melodrama to me...but nonetheless, it is always an interesting read :).
There will always be some losers out there, just ignore them I say. Then it will be like they never said anything. (Does a falling tree make a noise in an empty forest if there is no one there to hear it?) Although in this case it is hard to ignore since LCDN and Agrawal are definitely repeat offenders. They tell us not to pass judgment on them based on their posts. Go figure. Like we have anything else to go on.
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