| Username |
Post |
| ashu |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 05:31 AM
Akhilesh wrote:
>On a different note, journalists don't always reflect popular opinions, however. >If it wasn't for American constitution's First Amendment protection of free >speech, some journalists would get lynched, or sued for billions, etc, for
>voicing unpopular opinions.
I agree.
Writers like Susan Sontag (to cite NK's example from another thread), Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn can live and preach their unpopular opinions without any physical harm to their bodily selves ONLY in the United States of America because of that country's remarkable First Amendment protection of free speech. Anywhere else in the world, for their views, they would be branded as traitors, unpatriots and much else besides.
Without free speech, there would be no Sontag, Zinn, Chomsky, or for that matter, The Village Voice newspaper, or, for that matter . . . National Enquirer
too in the US.
In Nepal too, the greatest job our journalists and reporters can do is to report the truth, the truth and the truth alone (no matter how unpopular that truth might be) that those journalists can prove with evidence.
>Often times, ideas that sound shocking later become "mainstream viewpoint."
Very well said.
This is one reason why I, for one, am a jackass about lettting ALL KINDS of viewpoints (no matter how offensive some of those viewpoints are!) to have
their space in this forum.
Unless we allow all kinds of viewpoints to the fore in this OPEN forum, we will never know which truths are worth defending with better, more-evidenced arguments and which lies are worth discarding for being just that: unsupportable lies.
*****
Finally, after witnessing how "the Kunda Dixit saga has played out here", I,
as a visitor here, would appreciate reading a public apology to Kunda Dixit
issued by those who were, in retrospect, too quick and too harsh to brand him
as a traitor and much else besides.
Such an apology would underscore that, being humans, hey, we all make errors
of judgment. But our collective ability to handle such errors of judgement
OPENLY and PUBLICLY in the most straightforward way and learn from such a process would go a long way to keep this site a site that's in pursuit of
mutual respect and relentless truth.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| _BP |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 05:41 AM
Ashu, I for one find no fault with Kunda Dixit even if he had worded his comments just as he was accused of doing. He would have been simply pointing out the possibilities, and they are not that far out. People may disagree with him, but he expects this I am sure, as with many other points he makes. I do think people need to have a little more evidence before branding him however. By strongly disagreeing with him in this case, a lot of us divulge our prejudices.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 06:50 AM
BP,
Unfortunately, some of our friends here are obviously not what I would call "possibilitarians".
Instead of looking at ALL possibilities (both good and bad) on any given issue,
and THEN honestly and rigorously evaluating each possibility on its own objective and subjective merits, some of us are too quick and too rash to let our prejudices and hasty judgment cloud our intelligence.
I have seen this sort of behavior happen so many times -- here and elsewhere, time and again -- on the part of even otherwise sensible Nepalis that I have learnt to conclude that only free and OPEN public forums like this can help us all learn
to guard against letting such prejudices and hasty judgment get the better of
us.
Sadly, through such prejudices and hasty judgment, some of us also end up 'hijacking', so to speak, other people's emotions too, thereby whipping up
a public frenzy in the name of patriotism and what not.
(Remember that Hritik Roshan Kanda last December? At its root, it was a case
of MISPLACED emotional patriotism gone wrong!)
Kunda Dixit is a journalist who is highly regarded by his own professional
peers in Nepal and abroad. Before some of us take it upon ourselves to
publicly trash the reputation of a first-rate journalist, or for that matter
first-rate ANY Nepali professional, we need to have better access to facts and
evidence -- and NOT half-baked speculations seemingly dressed up
as THE conclusions.
Thankfully, our readers here are too smart for any of us poster, and it's the readers who keep us on our toes.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| Akhilesh |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 09:03 AM
Point well taken. But why apologize for one's thought and conviction?
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| Sunakhari |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 09:10 AM
Ashu, for once I would have to agree with you about Kunda Dixit.
Kunda Dixit was writing HIS opinions and thoughts and those are not the words of GOD nor is he taking it as writing on behalf of the Nepalese population!
Why be upset with what he wrote?
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| GP |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 09:16 AM
Ashu wrote and imp. issue here:
Such an apology would underscore that, being humans, hey, we all make errors
of judgment. But our collective ability to handle such errors of judgement
OPENLY and PUBLICLY in the most straightforward way and learn from such a process would go a long way to keep this site a site that's in pursuit of
mutual respect and relentless truth.
---
Today I am very much wondering reading Ashu urging others
to apologize, but, One thing I would like to point you that
its easy to tell others, but, its very difficult to do it by yourself.
Why? I had seen many times peoples were hurt here and
one of them if my memory is correct, she is our fellow
poster Ms. NK. I had hard to time to read any apology
towards she, but, the poster went on justifying with
tons of Bytes. Well, the world is colorful.
Well, great peoples do realize their mistakes
and do not delay in regretting their mistakes, and also from
apologies. But, some consider apology as great insult to
their pride. We have witnessed here several times.
I wish all readers recall those memories.
GP
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| joie de vivre |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 09:41 AM
Apologize for what? For having differing opinions to those of Kunda Dixit? I for one don’t see anything wrong with the statements Dixit made. In fact, Dixit should’ve been man enough to stand by his words if he did indeed make those statements instead of blaming it on “malicious TOI propaganda”. On the flip side, I don’t deny the possibility that he could’ve been misquoted.
Akhilesh brought up the issue of the First Amendment and Ashu backed it up wholeheartedly. By the same yardstick, shouldn’t Dixit’s critics be allowed to voice their opinions and tout the First Amendment? Talk about double standards. I see absolutely no call for an apology, public or otherwise.
Disclaimer: This is in no way a personal attack on (a) select individual(s) and lest anyone thinks it is, I’m pleading the First :)
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| NK |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 10:01 AM
GP wrote: "Today I am very much wondering reading Ashu urging others
to apologize, but, One thing I would like to point you that
its easy to tell others, but, its very difficult to do it by yourself.
Why? I had seen many times peoples were hurt here and
one of them if my memory is correct, she is our fellow
poster Ms. NK. I had hard to time to read any apology
towards she, but, the poster went on justifying with
tons of Bytes. Well, the world is colorful. "
huh? what? ....is somebody talking about me???? :)
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| GP |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 10:12 AM
Dear NK ji,
If you don't get hurt again bringing the old issue
here,, and if my memory is correct, you were hurt
by another poster and he chases you will, sometime
says "as human being we make mistake", but, never
makes any public apology. I was just wondering
what keeps his pride so high from Apologizing.
Meanwhile, if you again got hurt by revisiting the
issue, my sincere apology.
Kina kosai kosailai afule galti gareko thaha hunda
hundai pani afno galti swikari APOLOGY garna garho
bhako bhannya ni.
GP
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| NK |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 10:18 AM
That is ok GP bandhu,
It is all righ GP jee. I am all Karuna (lotus shutra). For more read the thread "Hinduism and Christianity."
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 11:08 AM
Well, Ashu.
So quick to ask other for apology. Apology for what?
If you are so brave, why don't you ask Times Of India people to apologize? I don't see anywhere your comments about TOI. When you forward your New York Times
article, do you always ask the writers whether the writers themselves wrote those
articles?
To denounce a person's statement about the specualtion of army's defeat is not
the statement of shame. This is my fundamental right. People like 'Ramdai' who came to assault me here with all those name calling and profanity should also be
shameful. Their statement doesn't deserve any reply either. When these detractor
says "I don't know Kunda Dixit", how can we verify?
And what if tomorrow Times Of India claims they have cassettes record of the
so called telephone interview? I go to apologize with them? Come on.
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| sunakhari |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 11:20 AM
hmm seems like i have to write a disclaimer myself ----
here comes
I am NOT BACKING the apology scenario requested by Ashu! I was merely agreeing with comments regarding -
" I have seen this sort of behavior happen so many times -- here and elsewhere, time and again -- on the part of even otherwise sensible Nepalis that I have learnt to conclude that only free and OPEN public forums like this can help us all learn
to guard against letting such prejudices and hasty judgment get the better of
us.
Sadly, through such prejudices and hasty judgment, some of us also end up 'hijacking', so to speak, other people's emotions too, thereby whipping up
a public frenzy in the name of patriotism and what not.
(Remember that Hritik Roshan Kanda last December? At its root, it was a case
of MISPLACED emotional patriotism gone wrong!)
Kunda Dixit is a journalist who is highly regarded by his own professional
peers in Nepal and abroad. Before some of us take it upon ourselves to
publicly trash the reputation of a first-rate journalist, or for that matter
first-rate ANY Nepali professional, we need to have better access to facts and
evidence -- and NOT half-baked speculations seemingly dressed up
as THE conclusions."
But with taking ALL of us into this broad spectrum.
LOL
(lest I get battered)
On a more serious note, I don't think anybody needs to apologize to Mr. Dixit. He is a public figure among Nepalese and it seems like he is quite seasonsed himself with uproars of various kinds.
Now Ashu, a question!
I am wondering if you, like most people in Nepal, look up to those who are revered by others as well or do you place the person in scrutiny BEFORE you back the person. I am merely inquisitive.
Nevertheless, I think I should clarify before I get branded as an anti-kunda dixit person that I find his articles EXTREMELY refreshing after all the patronizing ones that appear left and right.
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| NK |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 11:27 AM
"Ramdai" sounds very familiar to me. I think I know him. Hmmm... could he be posting from Nepal?
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| NK |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 11:28 AM
"Ramdai" sounds very familiar to me. I think I know him. Hmmm... could he be posting from Nepal?
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| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 12:58 PM
I wholeheartedly support biswoji on this. Why should he apologize to Kunda? Do we have any hard-fact to prove that he didn'ta ctually say that? OK, I agree many indian newspapers are biased and are good examples of yellow journalism, but TOI has some credibility. You can't just dismiss the facts published on TOI as you can, dismiss what's published ina newspaper from Bihar.
Just as Kunda and Ashu dai have their rights to speak their mind, Biswo and GP too have their rights to do so. And once anything is published for the masses to read, then in a democratic forum one can eitehr agree/disagree with the views published/expressed. Biswo disagreed with Kunda and that's fine in a DEMORATIC OPEN TRANSPARENT (words courtesy, ashu dai) like this one.
Biswoji, I too smell something fishy about Nepali Times backing The Himalayan Times. I seriously don't know why our governmnet allowed them to do business in Nepal.. If we go by ashu's logic that foregn investment in media brings competition and what not, then why does not the Indian government allow this? Why it always opposes the foreign investment in media? Any answer?
Plkus, to ashu dai and our daju, bhai, didi bahinis abroad who are yet to see the ahrd copy of The Himalayan Times:
The HImalayan Times has 8 pages, 4 color pages, and 4 B&W, and you know how much they charge for a copy? 2 RS. Jamma dui rupiya!!! On eof my journalkist friend was telling me that the paper on which they print the damned newspaper costs more than the newspaper, so they are not maing any profit. So, ashu's point that they are here ONLY for profit is baseless. Here's a rough estimate:
Total circulation of TKP=25,000. Now, TKP is an old, established newspaper. And it hardly has 25,000 readers. Would anyone rom TKP be kind enough to tell us whether the newspaper makes any profit or just gets return on its investment?
Now, let's imagine the scenario with The HImalayan Times:
Total circulation=15,000 (estimated)
15,000 X 2 Rs= 30,000/day (That is if they manage to sell all that's printed)=900,000
Now deduct the amount they have to spend on rent, salaries, ink, papers etc.. Then it comes down to 0. I know a friend who works there in Marketing and he earns around 15000/month. Now, ashu dai and his sensible historian friend, Pratyush, tell me whetehr they are here for competetion, profit or just to looose their money?
Now, getting back to biswoji: don't you rememebr that chinese saying which we all have to learn in our first year : Shuo chu lai rongyi, zuo chu lai nan (easier said than done) and qi hu nan xia (once you ride on a tiger, its hard to get down). I am sure you know what i am trying to prove :-(0) (Close up smile!)
Trailokya Aryal
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 01:28 PM
Dear Trailokya:
Why do one allow foreing investment in his country?
For jobs they create, revenue as tax they pay and all those good things. Also they
provide the host nation some kind of leverage against the investers also. When
China's MFN status used to be the subject of annual discussion in Congress, Boeing
always lobbied hard for China.
China also threatened to stop Disney's movies from being featured in China after
it invested in Kundun. That Lion King alone earned more than 50 million dollars in
China is also well known, and after that incident, Disney hired Kisinger's PR firm to
ameliorate its relation with China.
Yes, it is ok to get foreign investment as long as it serves our purpose and it
doesn't undermine our nationality. But we can't let Indian army or RAW invest
in Nepal, and open their office in Nepal in the name of foreign investment /job
creation etc. Not everything about foreign investment is so rosy.
Here are the same people who thought world class media house will follow suit
after TOI's investment. They didn't see difference between TOI and CNN then.
And now they are saying TOI is of this nature/of that nature. I always said let
only the friends of Nepal invest in Nepal. We are smart enough to know our friends
anyway. To tell the truth, TOI journalists are not so unknown to Nepalitimes
people. I thought they were ' friends'. Until now, btw, I am yet to see the
repudiation of those statements in TOI. And Should I wait until the quoted editor
publishes his repudiation to make my statements? There is no reason for him and
his followers to be red, and utter profanity just because I vehemently opposed
the statements that he now claims he didn't say. It also proves I was right.
When people pretend to be serious journalist, or commentator or critic or
whatsoever, they are supposed to behave that way. They are also supposed
to be ready to accept the criticisms. Journalists are not the only one who are
free to enjoy the freedom of expression.
In this same forum, I praised Himal people in the past. But increasingly I find them
unfathomable, pretentious and pontificating. This is my evaluation.Let me repeat
this , we are not member of celebrity fan club. We are not supposed to praise
everything the celebrity wear, and shout with joy when he speaks in front of us.
We are not supposed to ask soft questions like 'why are you so handsome?' 'what
do you eat to remain youthful?' 'why are you so much liked by your peers and
fans?' Come on,friends. Be free. Speak your mind.
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| Trailokya Aryal |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 01:37 PM
Dear Biswoji,
I agree with you wholeeheartedly (now i amw aiting for otehrs to call me your chamcha-dadu, panyau and what not).. Yes, Disney had to hire Henry Kissinger's firm to ameliorate its business relations with China and while Kissinger was busy finding ways to negotiate with the Chinese government, the Disney got this brilliant idea, why not invest on a movie on Chinese hero.. and they came up with MULAN...The chinese were happy, disney was happy.. and all the kids in the US and China were happy.. happy faces, no conflicts.. :-) (a brigter smile to make everyone happy)
Yes, Biswoji, I agree, we shouldn't let the Indians invest in Nepali media. I will say we shouldn't even let the Americans/Chinese/British/German inverst on media in Nepal. Because, print media is a powerful force, it has the power to change people's way of thinking.. and I am sure than people who get hooked to The Himalayn Times, wil in the long run be getting this view hammered in their head tthat nepal will be far better off under the indian umbrella. Biswoji, believe me, this is why they are publishing the newspaper here. If they wanted to make profit, then they would start a newspaper in india or any otehr big english speaking country like Ireland, Australia and the US.
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| GP |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 08:06 PM
Ramdai seems to be Aramdai, now, in Nepal. He lies a lot
and if aRamdai says he does not NepaliTimes, then, what
does he know?
Writing style is familier to me too. He cleverly used different
computer to avoid any trace of his past postings. I could not
find his ID for last two 3 months. Like finger marks, the
writer leaves his marks in the posting too.
GP
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| just me |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 09:18 PM
GP,
Are you thinking what I am thinking?
Internet Jasus
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| GP |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 09:41 PM
This is what some call telepathy and Japanese call it body language.
We don't have concrete proof, and ethics does not allow you to
tell what you and me thinking, probably same thing.
GP
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| it is me again |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 09:44 PM
where are you GP? in nepal or japan?
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| GP |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 01:36 AM
Dear Fren, GP will be missing in action. No where in
real world, but, in Cyberspace.
Not to mean to disappoint you.
GP
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| NK |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 10:03 AM
very funny GP.
anyway, have you heard the ukhan, "chor ko khutta kat?"
The story goes like this: Queen's tiara was missing. she was distraught. she refused to eat and and sing songs which she used to do beautifully. Now, it was king's turn to be dismayed. he was depressed because he was denied the beautiful voice of his queen. he wanted to exact revenge. so, he lined up all the suspects and looked in everybody's eyes and at the cue he thundered, "chork ko khutta kat! you know who he is!" among all the lined up suspects one picked his leg up!
(i think i embelished this story. i forgot the real story, somehow. must be the old age)
Moral of the story? ooops, forgot it. you draw the conclusion my dear readers/writers.
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