| Username |
Post |
| NK |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 10:09 AM
A declaration made by NK:
From this day on forward I will not buy/sell/read/borrow or steal Times of India, the epitome of yellow journalism.
Down with the Times of India!!!!!!!!!!!
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| joie de vivre |
Posted
on 27-Nov-01 10:15 AM
Call me skeptical, but I can’t shake the feeling that Dixit said what he said and is now just trying to dig himself out of the grave he dug for himself. Not that there’s anything wrong with what he said, he’s entitled to his own speculations and opinions (just as we all are). And if you feel strongly enough about TOI’s “malicious propaganda” to ban it from your life, more power to you, just don’t forget to add “download” to your list :)
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| ashu |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 01:01 AM
And here's a declaration made by Ashu.
I accept the reality that India is our neighbor. With that reality, I accept that the better informed we are about issues -- all kinds of issues, good and bad -- in India, the better decision we can take in/for Nepal's advantage.
And so, rather than blaming India for this and that, I accept that Nepal needs to be SMARTER in terms of building profitable strategies, advantageous negotiations
and so on with/in India.
And so, to help that, I will continue to read the Times of India, India Today and other Indian newspapers so that one gets to understand, using one's own judgment, the good and the bad that is India.
On a larger note, understanding India -- with all its strengths and
weaknesses -- and knowing how to STRATEGICALLY use that understanding
to Nepal's advantage is going to be a crucial agenda for all of Nepal's
policy-makers in the future, especially with India's waking up to its enormous potential.
And so, hooray for strategic alliances of all kinds with India that BENEFITS Nepal.
Down with raw, crude, emotional Xenophobia that gives us all kinds of "Ritik Roshan Kandas" right and left.
oohi
"proud to be a nepali; and eager to exploit Indian markets for Nepali goods and services"
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| _BP |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 01:48 AM
The downfall in your thinking Ashu, is that it is logical, realistic, and optimistic.
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| _BP |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 01:49 AM
Not to mention, it does not make for interesting and emotional discussion.
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| ,ashu |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 02:27 AM
BP
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| ashu |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 03:16 AM
Hi BP,
Sorry to disappoint you :-)
In Nepal, broadly, vis-a-vis India, I have found these two groups of people
One group: The Paranoids.
Second group: The Realists.
I would think that The Paranoids make up about 95 per cent of those who look
at India in Nepal. The Realists make up about 5 per cent. Among both paranoids and realists, there are various strands. That is to say, NOT all paranoids are
alike, and not all realists are alike.
That said, let's talk about the broad similarities within each group.
The Paranoids see themselves as true-blue Nepali patriots. And their definition of a true-blue Nepali patriotism equals visceral hatred/dislike for India. And so, praise India for anything, even in passing, and these paranoids descend upon you like locusts to call you "an Indian chamcha" or "RAW ko agent" or much else besides.
These Paranoids make points with emotions -- and often, with raw, crude and reptilian emotions at that. Logic, reason and well-evidenced arguments do not sway their beliefs because they have been culturally conditioned, since childhood, against India.
Further, these paranoids do not want to study the REALISTIC and CHANGING/SHIFTING forces in international trade and diplomacy. These paranoids are stuck in the past, and stuck they want to be.
They are not interested in building up Nepal's capabilities to successfully negotiate deals with India. They are not interested in exploring areas of mutual cooperation. They do not trust instruments of international laws for Nepal to push for Nepal's own benefit. What's more, they do not even trust themselves to have the basic ability do anything in Nepal's favor in India's presence. They think their very catalog of complaints against India make them appear more right in the eyes of the
international community.
And so, their hatred for India is as large as their fear for India. And their entire self-image comes from: "What does India think of us?"
If India thinks bad of them, then, the low-end of such paranoids take to the streets -- engaging in vandalism, shutting down businesses and killing fellow Nepalis, as happened in last year's Ritik Roshan Kanda. The high-end of such paranoids, personified by such people as leftist writer Khagendra Sangraula,
then write articles JUSTIFYING such insane violence against one another
because that's the "duty of true patriots" (his exact words!).
One epitome of paranoid thinking is: "I'd rather live under Maoists rule than be rescued by Indian forces." Logic for logic, that's like an Afgani in Kunduz saying, "I'd rather live under the Talibans than be rescued by the
non-Afganis."
Paranoids need such thinking because their world is neatly divided, like that of the Maoists, between "for us or against us", and there is no middle ground to move around.
The Realists, on the other hand, are everything the Paranoids are NOT. For starters, they do not necessarily trumpet their patriotic credentials, and as
such, are relatively quietly proud to be Nepalis.
They accept India as a large and an influential neighbor but reserve their right NOT to be influenced by India. The realists' primary self-image as Nepalis comes from within themselves and NOT from the pages of The Times of India.
Being pragmatists, the realists try to see how -- using international laws, negotiating strategies and favorable happenstances -- they can best serve Nepal's larger interests in trade, commerce and diplomacy and more. These people tend to be confident about Nepal's own ability to LEARN to deal with India on Nepal's own terms, and they look for ways to enhance Nepal's capability on
these areas.
The realists do NOT ingore past Indian inequities and reserve their right to be skeptical about India. But rather than dragging the past again and again, and forever playing the "victim game" and going nowhere with that, these realists are eager to see that their country NOW knows how to respond self-confidently to such alleged Indian cleverness.
The realists are oriented toward the future, which, to them looks brighter with strategic alliances with India than without.
Again, NOT all paranoids are alike, and NOT all realists are alike. There may be people who combine bits of both, and that too is fine.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| _BP |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 03:30 AM
Ashu, prepare for a barrage on this matter.
I am a patriot. I would gladly risk my life for my ancestral homeland, or my country by birth. However, the comment that some people would rather let Nepal be overrun by Maoists than to accept help from the Indian army concerns me. Now I understand that people like GPji have legitimate concerns about an Indian Army coming into Nepal. I too am extremely skeptical about the Indian Army coming into our nation, past inequities withstanding. I would be less inclined to freak out about some indirect military aid. The question is, would people really like to live in anarchy (which I believe is what would happen the way things are going...or perhaps this has already happened), or risk losing their sovereignty. If this is the basic question that GPji thinks our discussions come down to, then I obviously understand it is a lose-lose situation. The way I see it, anarchy is a certainty if we don't accept help, and losing our national identity is less likely if we do. This is my stand.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 07:22 AM
>Ashu, prepare for a barrage on this matter.
Oh, absolutely, BP.
Let the attacks come.
That's fine.
But by posting that thing above, I do want to take the thrust of the debate
AWAY from stuff like who's more patriot than whoever else, and into what I considered to be substantive but often unaddressed issues in ways Nepalis
look at India.
I think we can talk about Nepal-India relations without getting emotional, without using patriotism as the usual "moral high ground", and, more importantly, without losing sight of changing/shifting international geopolitical alliances.
I mean, think about this: For all our so-called distaste for Indian Army, the bitter, bitter fact is that many of our Nepali brothers from the hills CONTINUE to enlist in large numbers in the Indian Army in India even today.
That's a fact we cannot deny.
So, as a matter of purely debating point, and to volley The Paranoids' rallying cry back to them: Would you rather live under the Nepali Maoists or rather be rescued by Nepali jawaans from Palpa, Dharan, Dang and so on who are currently serving in the Indian Army?
OK.
That was a rhetorical question, but I hope it underscores the FUTILITY of taking 'patriotiom' too far.
Sooner or later, we have come down to logic, reason, evidence, uncertainties and startegies that can be PRO-NEPAL without necessarily being anti-India.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| NK |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 10:46 AM
Dear Readers/Writers:
I denounce everybody who doesn't denounce with me! down with the non-denouncers.
here are some :), and more :), :], :0.....:-), ;)
You know they are some sort of reseve smiliey faces. When I want to say really really nasty stuff then I throw them here and there between some lines, around. or at the end of the sentences so that people who are reading will be fooled that I am really joking.
NK
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| Orion |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 11:10 AM
I am not going to boycott TOI - becuase I like reading it and it sometimes has very interesting articles. Besides, I do not see how boycotting TOI will make me any more patriotic than I already am. I dont want the Indian Army in Nepal but I realize whether or not I read TOI will not influence anyone in India or Nepal about the Indian Army. On the contrary, if I felt very passionately about something written in a neswpaper, I would write to editor and express my views instead of facing the other way. That, I think, will be more effective in getting your point across than boycotting the publication.
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 11:14 AM
Ashu:
>I think we can talk about Nepal-India relations without getting emotional, without
>using patriotism as the usual "moral high ground", and, more importantly, without
>losing sight of changing/shifting international geopolitical alliances.
Of course, when you think you can define the moral high ground.
It bothers me when people like you try to preach other. It bothers big time, my
friend. Do you think that you or your comrades are the only persons who 'didn't
lose sight of changing international geopolitical alliances'?
Here is another fact for you. When India was declared free in 1947, most of the
princely states were ascended to the new republic. It was trend then. It was the
so called changing alliance then. But we resisted. We need to decide what is good
for us depending upon ourselves, not on the nature of changing alliances.
Here are all major dailies of Nepal, all major papers, all major political leaders, all
intellectuals saying that TOI investment is not good for us. And here you go,a few
people like Ashutosh Tiwari,something Onta, Kunda Dixit welcomes them. Then
TOI quotes Kunda as grandly saying "RNA probably can't win this war against
terrorism' . And when readers like me respond with justifiable rage, Kunda denies
he said anything like that. But
1. He doesn't say who did he talk to .
2. He doesn't say whether he asked for apology or not from TOI.
And some people wants 'US' to apologize. You want me to apologize, and when I
don't apologize, you come here with :
1. Bhaktigaan of Kunda Dixit.
2. Terming our opposition to foolish comments of a person as 'reptilian emotion'.
3. Terming us as jingoist and paranoid.
4. Proclaiming high ground as 'realist' for yourself.
That is fine with me. But to me, it looks increasingly imprerative for people like you
and your celebrity Kunda Dixit and also people like Ramdai to
1. Stop attacking readers.
2. Stop sitting down with every so called journalists from TOI or whatever
newspaper for interview.
3. Stop giving interview without setting any term
4. Rinse mouth daily with anti-halitotis mouth rinse
5. Start addressing fellow poster with dignity and respect
6. Learn to respect other people, their judgement, and their patriotic feeling
7. Stop speculating about RNA's capability
8. And finally apologise for terming opponents 'Paranoids' and misquoting them
You want to apologise , fine. You don't want to apologise, that's understandable
from you. I can move on.
>Would you rather live under the Nepali Maoists or rather be rescued by Nepali
>jawaans from Palpa, Dharan, Dang and so on who are currently serving in the
>Indian Army?
I will live in Maoists rule. It is your myopia to think Nepali jawaans are only Nepali
jawaans when they fight from Indian Army. Their bosses are still Indians.
Maoists won't last more than a decade if they become unpopular. But Indians, they
won't live without causing more damage to Nepal. You need to be shameful for
advocating such entry.
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| Sunakhari |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 11:38 AM
Ashu,
If you have been exposed to Indian Central Government's interference then you would know that Nepali jawaans would not be sent to Nepal - DEFINITELY NOT!
They are going to send in soldiers from obscure places. (If you don't know what I'm talking about then please go talk to someone who was in the Gorkhaland Andholan). India would never send out their best troops for such causes, they would send out the most brutal ones - reformed dacoits etc. People would then be subjected to all kinds of military cruelity - rapes etc (this btw happened in the G. Andholan) Hence, you would be much better off living under maoists!
By your classification, I would rather be deemed a paranoid than a realist.
But in the REAL world, I think I would be a realist - I realize outside troops would not adhere to the culture, the surroundings and society - take Vietnam for example! They would plunder, loot and rape!
Before you welcome this - not that you would have any influence :) - it would do you good to keep yourself informed on some of the grassroot problems instead of such a HUGE ideology - of idolizing India.
My dui paise musings.
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| PURU |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 12:07 PM
Biswo,
I whole heartily agree with you. This ASHU guy knows how to twist and turn the subject as he wants. I am sick of this guy's double standard. Why is he asking apology on behalf of Kunda when we haven't seen anything from TOI clarifying that they were wrong about Kunda's interview. We can't just believe Kunda's clarification on his own paper why can't he write and make TOI to clarify.
Why don't this ASHU guy apologize to his fellow poster when he was wrong. When ever someone bring this topic, he hides his tail and keeps quite. . .
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| Riti |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 05:57 PM
I am a visitor of this forum but I haven't contributed much - but, I thought I should "declare" that I completely agree with what Ashu-ji has expressed (very well done, by the way).
This sentence really sums it up for me:
"Sooner or later, we have come down to logic, reason, evidence, uncertainties and strategies that can be PRO-NEPAL without necessarily being anti-India."
Sure patriotism is a necessary impetus for positive change/development but there is a point where patriotism (or whatever you want to call it) inhibits rational, logical, objective thinking.
Nepal really needs to learn to play with the cards it has been dealt - without losing site of the big picture.
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| Mike Binaju |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 06:07 PM
I won't read it - not only do they make up their own quotations or mis-quotations- but the ENGLISH they use does not translate to USA standards.
Once they start to use the USA Standard WEBSTER's DICTIONARY - I shall then think about reading their misquotations again.
Folks, I'm with Namita on this one.
Ashu, Let it be known - YOU HAVE NO BACKBONE.
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| observer's observer |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 06:46 PM
hmm... TOI probably doesn't care about adhering to USA standard of English nor should they. Theirprimary audience are Indians who I'm sure don't have much objection with TOI's syle of english .
As for giving up reading TOI, the only establishment that should be worried is TOI's marketing department. Do I thik TOI gives a rat's ass so as to weather NK reads TOI or not? I think not.
Also see no evil and hear no eveil isn't helpful in avoiding evil in life.
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| me |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 07:03 PM
Lamentation of NK:
Oh dear TOI! My beloved TOI! Wouln't you care even a bit, just a bit of "rat's ass" that I have stopped buying, looking, reading, smelling, and stealing you! My whole life is nothing now I have forsaken you!
Oh, dear TOI! Call your Marketing Department and ask them why the sell has gone down by one copy, oh dear TOI! If you have one iota of pride, you will come knocking on my door to cajole me to buy you.
hmm... maybe i will write another "play" on this. watch out obeserver's obeserver and Riti (some imagination you go there) you will play a prominent role in my next play. are you scared yet? boo! (there! i think I scared you)
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| observer's observer |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 07:36 PM
oh NK! this discussion board's beloved NK!
oh mighty prolific poet NK!
the 'give Shakespeare run for his money' NK!
Oh how I wish you wouldn't compose
as the world (read that as GBNC discussion board) will just tear, trash and dispose
such great work of poems and plays
that depicts this discussion boards vagrant ways.
hey not bad for a first timer huh :)
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| me |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 08:00 PM
not bad, not bad at all. Now, please don't go on crying about patronizing you. If anything i am unpatronizing you. who wants a competition? one poet-in-residence is enough for this discussion board, don't you think? :), :] :) (just got out some smiley faces from my bank vault)
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| Observer's observer |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 08:08 PM
Oh please stop it!! i'm not worthy of compliments from such high and mighty ( barrage of smily faces from my swiss account :>)
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| wonderer |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 09:05 PM
hey guys..no ..please don't stop this ! this is one of the topics i am enjoying the most !!
and btw, what face does :] stand for ? is it the same as :) or something different ?
kurakani lover
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| nepalikt |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 10:38 PM
Is just me or did someone forget to turn off the spigot on this one?
How much discussion, how many words, such emotions.... hare shiva! or shoudl I say Haye ram?!
I have to admit, I have not read beyond the first few posts on some of these threads! 75 posts, 25 posts! the numbers alone scared the crap out of me.
This whole discussion on Kunda dixit and the Indian Army and RNA and tritors and Maoist....
Blah blah blah
That's all all this is sounding to me like!
So, NK, I denouce with you!
Down with it all!
Give me a few rel smiley faces!
I think we all need them.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 28-Nov-01 11:04 PM
Hi all,
Thank you for keeping this discussion forward.
I think I have made my points as forcefully and as clearly
and as honestly as I can, and that's the best
I can do on this matter.
If I am to be denounced for my views, fine.
If I am to be appreciated for them, that's fine too.
Riti-ji, I appreciate your words of support.
Thank you.
oohi
"having a lot of fun making fellow-Nepalis debate passionately about issues that matter and not minding a few attacks that come my way while doing that"
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| _BP |
Posted
on 29-Nov-01 12:06 AM
Hey Riti...are you RS?
I think the overriding sentiment in Nepal is that India is just a big bully. Still I am not opposed to getting help from them or their military. At least we share the same culture. Obviously a balance has to be struck there. But no way do I prefer these crazy Maoists. For God's sake, look at how they try to make their points!
I am siding with Riti, Orion, Observer, Ashu, etc on this one. We should have like a tug-o-war or something. And NK, you are just incorrigible.
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| NK |
Posted
on 29-Nov-01 09:27 AM
nepalikt,
thank you for being with me on this. blah blah blah.
here are some smiley faces for you from my own reserve account: :)!
Here is another one for understanding the deeper meaning of my posting: :]
and BP with the slash in front: thank you. that was the nicest thing somebody said about me for a long time. here is one smiley face for you too: :]
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| krishna |
Posted
on 29-Nov-01 10:38 AM
Pugyo. Bhayo.
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 29-Nov-01 10:46 AM
Dear NK:
BP with the slash?
No. BP with the underscore in front. BPji says he didn't get his trademark for BP.
You can say Underscore BP :-)
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| NK |
Posted
on 29-Nov-01 11:20 AM
Thanks Biswo for lifting the cloud from my eyes.
:) :) :) :) [at this rate i will run out of my smiley faces!]
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| Riti |
Posted
on 29-Nov-01 11:32 AM
Hi BP, You got it right: I'm RS! :-) Hope you're doing well...
Certainly, India is a big bully but we’re going to have to deal with it. It's about time we move beyond that and do things with objective thought rather than unrestrained emotion. I have faith that that shift in mentality is coming soon. It’s good to see that there are so many people who actually care.
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| smiley needer |
Posted
on 29-Nov-01 05:28 PM
Hey NK, i need a smiley face too ...
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