| Username |
Post |
| smp |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 10:53 AM
I saw someone looking for an 'interesting' discussion topic. I am not sure what exactly 'interesting' means. But a friend and I were trying to examine the broad implications and repercussions of a social trend some young Nepali men working abroad, especially in the US, seem to be engaging in. A very generalized scenario even though I am aware that the story does change, sometimes even drastically, from one case to another. I am not criticizing or condoning the trend but trying to understand the implications and repercussions as I mentioned above.
Say there is a twenty or thirty something Nepali male educated in the US or the west. He holds a good job with even better prospects down the road. He is looking for a life partner. He is interested in marrying a Nepali. He does not have enough opportunities to meet very many Nepali women where he lives. He decides to go home to Nepal for a month or so for his vacation. He meets a few women through his friends, relatives or parents. He likes someone and that someone likes him back. They decide to get married. She is not educated here. In fact, she does not have qualifications recognized in the west to hold a job even remotely comparable to the groom's. She arrives in the US and stays home till her visa situation gets sorted out which could mean a few years. Or she takes up a minimum wage job some place, often illegally. Or she goes to school. Or any other scenario I am not thinking of. Is she better off or worse off in each of these situations? In the short run? In the long run? Are there any moral implications? On the part of the groom? On the part of the bride? I would be interested in learning your opinion on this matter.
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| Prativa |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 11:49 AM
If the man and woman agreed to get married and came to the US, the best thing the woman can do is to go to school... 2 years school is better than either staying at home and being depressed or working hard for a minimum wage. I am assuming that the husband can afford to send her to school. I cannot see anything bad coming out of this.
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| amina |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 12:32 PM
I think it is very difficult to give a general answer to your questions. Whether the girl is worse off or better off coming here, that is a very subjective matter I think. But trying to generalize it as much as possible, I see the following scenarios happening :
1)The girl hasn’t really developed her career in Nepal or elsewhere..being in USA she goes to school and enhances her chances of having a good career. I think those girls are better off being here.
2)On the other hand, I have seen women who are already established in a certain career back in Nepal (or elsewhere) and they have little scope or opportunity to pursue their interests in USA. Most of them go to school to learn computer programming skills for better chances of getting a job (which is not necessarily a part of their initial career goals). I am not so sure if they are better off. Maybe some regard the career sacrifices they have made worthwhile..
3)And there are some, not-so-stressed about career women who’s prime concern is to raise a nice family..I think they regard themselves better off here as they see several opportunities for their children.
The scenarios may not be exhaustive…it’s just based on some observations I have made from the people I know and through personal experience.
Moral implications ? I personally think the guy should atleast make sure that the girl is aware of the situations in USA or the west before she makes her decision. I am not sure what moral implications there are for the women…maybe some of you may have better ideas.
But one thing though, any person (girl or guy) is always better off in any given situation if one knows how to accept and learn from the challenges he or she faces. Because no matter where you go, the challenges of life will never stop chasing you. And I feel that the west is a great learning place. I have always admired many of those Nepali students who come here and work their way through college. I have seen many people evolve through the hardships they face here in USA and become better people. So I guess girls who get married and come here can follow the same path and exploit the opportunities they can find here…
But ofcourse there maybe some who come here with high hopes and dreams and feel greatly disappointed when faced with the challenges..but I think most do eventually overcome that stage.
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| Orion |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 12:50 PM
Smp,
You ask some very interesting questions. My answer is it really doesnt matter as long as both the husband and wife act in good faith, love each other and do the best for each other. I really dont have any strong leanings this way or that as to what is right and wrong on this issue. I totally agree with you that this is best looked at on a case by case basis. As long as they are happy and are acting with a "good heart" ( couldn't resist the Dubya speak) I think whatever they do is their own business. Rather simplistic, you might say, but for me many things in life are about good hearts and good minds.
In terms of breaking the law, by working illegally, I think that needs to be looked at in a context that is much broader than a Nepali man marrying a Neplai girl. I think the US has some very liberal immigration policicies but many of them do have a flip side to them. While I understand the US need to protect its borders I think cheap immigrant labor, most of it illegal, has helped the US economy tremendously in the past and will cointinue to do so in the future. So while people may technically be breaking a law by working illegaly, I think there is a dawning realization among US policy makers that US Labor laws may need to be revised, especially when the economy is back on its feet. September 11th may have changed some of that, but on the long run, I see the US adopting a more sensible attitude to "illegal workers" who, as the past can speak to, end up becoming legal residents anyway after a few years in the US. So I really am not alarmed too much by the wife working without papers ( although if she gives out her SSN - she could be in trouble when she applies for a Green Card).
Just some initial thoughts
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 12:56 PM
Just a few more thoughts.
I think whatever a girl thinks, she can't live a dignified life without earning money
herself.
Let's face it, a husband is a friend, not a god. They can cruel and brutal also. They can be inconsiderate to their wife's feelings also. I have seen a lot of husbands
addressing their wives 'Ta', not even 'timi'. Conversely, I am yet to see any girl
who address her husband 'Ta'. It ranges from 'Timi' to 'Hajur'. Some rarely say the
name.
So, even in USA, Nepali girls are relegated to the position less than what they
deserve. Situation of girls coming from Nepal is worse.
A lot of girls coming from Nepal have husband of disproportionate ages also. Lack
of education not only makes them subservient to a man who toils his time away in
his office, but makes their life a synonym of eternal wait. They wait for their
husband in their house all day, and probably spend day time in television and
telephone.
Unless women have education, and eagerness to work hard and succeed, USA can
be a difficult place to live. For a lot of women in Nepal, however, working is also
a novel thought. Upper or upper middle class families rarely have working women
in their family. So, some women from those families are yet to be inculcated the
thought of dignity associated with work.
I don't think 'Raising a nice family' is only a concern of women. It should be a joint
responsibility.Also, an educated and working woman is the best mom, anyway.
So, my suggestion to those who can: Please go to school, start earning dollars,
and subsequent genuine respect from people in your family.
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| Orion |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 01:23 PM
Biswo - you say you have yet to see a girl call her guy "ta' - I can vouch that is changing - especially when the species gets angry :)
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| joie de vivre |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 02:21 PM
Good topic, smp. I think amina’s on the right track with what she has to say about the various scenarios and moral implications.
I think it would all depend on the man and woman in question (I recoil at calling anyone over the age of 20 a ‘guy’ or a ‘girl’ just as I shudder to think of anyone calling me a ‘girl’). The way the Nepali mindset is, most people (before anyone jumps at my throat, I said ‘most’, not everyone) would jump at the chance of coming to the US regardless of what their status (both legally and in society) is. If the woman (or in some, though few cases, the man) is willing to come to the US merely to come to the US and has no issues with coming over as the less educated or less qualified partner, where’s the problem? If both partners are willing and happy with that scenario, who are we to say it’s wrong? As for where s/he is better off, again, it depends on the couple in question. Just as simplicity is relative (smiley face), so is this issue. What one might consider good might very well be considered bad by another person. Like Anima said, some people are just content with the home and hearth while others are more ambitious. I think the only moral implications that would arise would be those that did arise if the man held his wife back from getting a US education or improving her skills/qualifications, or from growing as a person (or vice versa).
I personally would never consider being in a union where I couldn’t hold my own and contribute equally both financially and intellectually. But then that’s just me.
(Not the most lucid piece of writing but alas, work prevents me from spending time polishing it or elaborating more. Oh woe is me!)
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| smp |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 02:48 PM
I do not dispute the relativism of the better-off/worse-off dichotomy if we can actually have such a neat dichotomy. And thus I mentioned that every case is different before I said anything else in my first post. My goal in starting this thread is to get a feel for what people think.
About moral implications, maybe I should further elaborate what I am trying to get at. Do men actually realize the complexity of the situation before they go back home to find a suitable mate? Even if they do realize that, do they discuss that with their prospective wives and families? Do women in Nepal realize that? Do they consider that when they decide? Do Nepali men get married to women from Nepal just becuase they need and want to get married (to anyone) regardless of the situation for the women? Do Nepali women marry Nepali men in the US knowing the situation but ignoring it or thinking of the benefit they could obtain from such a situation (by coming to the US)? Replace all the Do's with Should's and they become moral questions. Yes, sure again moral relativism abound (I have heard this term one too many times post 9/11) but is there something else to this than just that. Does anyone have any more insight than just that?
Definitely, I don't have answers. If I did, I would not be posting so many questions here.
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| TRINA |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 03:34 PM
I agree with Biswo for the most part and it's nice to know
that Biswo being a nepalese male (you are aren't you?) is aware of the issues
that surround nepalese women especially once they take on a role of a wife and a mother.
I myself am not married so I'm not speaking from my own expereince but over
the years I've encountered some nepalese couples residing in the U.S.and here are some of my observations.
In majority of the situations the wife takes care of the household chores
cleaning, cooking, taking care of the kids (if any) including feeding the husbands.
Yes feeding the husbands, literally. For some reasons some men are incapable
of serving the food themselves and shoving it in their mouths(sorry) that they
don't feel guilty about awakening the exhausted wife who has fallen asleep
waiting for the husband. Mind you the wife has worked a 9 to 5 hours job before coming home and preparing the meal for her family. Does the husband appreciate
the wife for the wonderful dinner? No! He instead throws a fit becasue the wife
didn't wait for him by the door.
And in situations where both the husband and wife leave for work at about the same time and return home together, the wife hurriedly changes her work clothes
and enters the kitchen to prepare dinner for BOTH herself and the HUSBAND while
the husband makes himself comfortable in front of a tube and shamelessly orders
a beer while caressing his beer belly. Does he think there's a waitress in the house? Hell Yeah! The wife. The wife is a cook, a bread winner, a maid, a waitress
a dishwasher, a buss girl, and whatever purpose the husband wants her to serve.
gotta go,
more later
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| Riti |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 05:28 PM
This issue has continued to interest me...and I'm really impressed by all your thoughts. Amina, in particular, has done a good job illustrating various common scenarios. I guess I'm just reiterating what's already been said but my feeling is that it is really important for both parties to know what exactly they're getting into. I've witnessed a few marriages that were the product of what I thought was little foresight - this often leads to difficult hurdles. But, what it boils down to is: both should make decisions that fit them. I worry when, as it often happens, women do not do this and are quickly made to believe by family/friends that the arrangement is best for them.
I also think that there is nothing wrong with a woman's choice to stay at home for family. She must want to do it though (I can't imagine what torture it is for a child whose mother is unhappy with what she's doing).
For all the sistas out there who've come here upon marrying an NRN - I admire you for your courage, fortitude and amazing ability to adapt!
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| Sfengali |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 09:05 PM
Well what exactly is the trend that you all seem to be so concerned of? All the responses that are posted on this thread, albiet very thoughtful, ultimately fail to discuss the particular trend affecting Nepali Single men abroad. It appears that most of you are more interested in talking about the implications of personal decisions and how one goes about balancing one's married life. Unless solving that generational problem could be counted as the trend itself the issue seems elusive. Not to be overtly critical, it seems that the basic Nepali intellectual trait is that we are overwhelmingly preoccupied with defining the boundaries of our individuality. Of course it is natural given that single people from this demographic age group are trail blazers and have the resources and intellectual capacityprevious Nepali generations never even dreamed of. In that respect I suppose it is natural that there is not a linear definition of what exactly is the trend per se, because we are all involved in trail blazing in our unique way.
If marriage, as South Asian culture and especially Bollywood "Shadi karna hai, and ek ladki chahiye" is but the paramount concern of all the poeple, we are not that different from our respective counterpart in America from different cultures and countries. It is sort of a traditional bell curve distribution. At the furthest extreme being people who do not view marriage as being the indespensible institution as it was. In essence they want flexibility. This could even be a cohabitation arrangement where both the parties have equitable bargaining power and can maximize individual pursuits, in a collaborative effort. On the other end of that spectrum are people for whom it is not a calculative decision and marriage is perhaps just something to do, out of insecuirty, loneliness. And the middle portion which is the majority contains people who would want to balance out the extremities and find a meaningful and a committed relationship i.e. hallmark stuff.
In all these why is it particularly important that the woman has to be nepali or vice versa? I fully realize the significance of cultural affinity to Nepal however I do not think that such is a determinitive factor anymore, especially in the group of highly educated successful people.
Finally there is always this question of what ideology are we following? The answer you may say is entirely subjective, but the vision of what we want to build in the future seems to be much more Indian heavy than American. But since we accept the fundamental premise of intellectual and material pursuit why do we resort immediately to background once emotions enter into decisions?
There is a justified criticism about the problems that is present in this society but that is mainly because the information is out there and heightened by media. What we believe as unique nepali cultural traits may in the end be just our infirmities and failings that we have yet to face and address. I suppose I would categorize questions as such as intellectual trend.
This is a tough issue because it is almost always very difficult to analyze a trends while you are in the trend. And 20/20 hind sight is always good so may be 10 years down the line we would know. But what good that does us now?
Ultimately it is a sad relaity that we are sort of caught in making a socialogical analyisis from the development and Socio/Anthro 101 kind of way.
I did not intentionally try to make this comment purposefully complex, but it came out so in trying to bring a closure to some of the issues that have come to the forefront while I have talked to other people. Hopefully this will add something rather thank detract.
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| Nagan |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 09:14 PM
Having seen a bunch of my own 'lagautiyaars' do what has been in discussion here, I find this issue very captivating. However, I don't find the replies here addressing the depth of the matter. What I would like to know is your opinion on whether guys make such marriage decisions out of desparation or simply to fullfill the necessicity of getting married to Nepali women? A scenario of desparateness could be this: one hasn't been dating/seeing anybody for a while, one hasn't had one's physical needs taken care of, etc.. and one sees a beautiful Nepali women willing to completely play by one's rules. And another curiosity it arouses is: in doing so, in your view, is the guy exploiting the Nepali woman he is getting married to?
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| GP |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 09:47 PM
Biswo ji,
I think situations are changing. IT will need time.
Even in Nepal, new generation women are going
for work after some their prime job of taking care
of small babies. New, child care centers are emerging
and the main problem today lies in the cost of
baby care, especially in Nepal, such places are very rare
and very far, so its very difficult to manage both
things, with the little earning. After kids start
going to school, or KG, most of the educated
mothers have started to work (ref. my personal contact)
usually, they join private schools and in this sense
also Private schools are offering a great platform
to educated mothers.
In foreign land too, Nepali wives do use TIMI to
call their husband, but, when they find their relatives
in another corner of the room, they start TAPAI to
HAJUR, as you know she can not disobey her strict
relatives who might be DOING JASUSI and whispering
next day with Sasu "tapai ki buhari ta kasti, bjhnu bho
tapai ko chhora lai timi bhane ki . . . . .and therefore,
they want to avoid such kane khusi ...." . Next generation
willl have more changes than we have and its evolution
and I don't like revolution, because the revolution is
dangerous becuse of its too bad side effects.
GP
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| amina |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 11:02 PM
Biswo Wrote:
I think whatever a girl thinks, she can't live a dignified life without earning money
herself.
I disagree with you on that one Biswo. I think that is where a lot of the problem lies. The idea that a woman cannot deserve dignity without earning money. Isn’t being a home-maker and taking care of your children honorable enough to live a dignified life ? ( if that is the mutual agreement between husband and wife) what if the role was reversed ? what if my husband chooses to stay home and look after the kids and I go to work, would that make his life less dignified ? earning money, working outside the house is a personal choice…
If you are talking about financial independence, then I’m with you.
>Also, an educated and working woman is the best mom, anyway.
That statement is again, debatable. It all depends on personal choice.
>So, my suggestion to those who can: Please go to school, start earning dollars and subsequent genuine respect from people in your family.
My mum never earned dollars in her life yet I do have genuine respect for her, for what she has done for us and our family. What I am trying to get at here is, I am not comfortable with the idea of conditionality placed on when a woman commands genuine respect from the society. Having a career outside the house should be a freedom of choice for women and not a essential condition to deserve respect. Anyways, respect or no respect, the times have made it more of necessity due to financial reasons.
Smp thanks for elaborating on the moral implications. I am not sure if this falls under that category, but I think that very few Nepalese Men realize the psychological aspects of starting a new life with a new person (most probably someone you hardly know) in a new place. And I don’t think the women are that much aware either. I feel that in Nepal, the situation is somewhat different because of the family support one can receive. I have talked to numerous women who have gone through this phenomena. And most of the times, they do not know how to communicate their issues with their husbands. And I have noticed that most of the times, the men don’t really know how to respond either. The emotional stress mounting from this situation can be enormous, both on the man and woman. I feel that the unfortunate incident that happened in MN ( I am not sure of the place) where a Nepalese guy killed his wife, could be an example of what I am talking about.
Nagan wrote:
However, I don't find the replies here addressing the depth of the matter. What I would like to know is your opinion on whether guys make such marriage decisions out of desparation or simply to fullfill the necessicity of getting married to Nepali women?
I could be digressing from the main topic here. I am not sure if I can answer your question as I am not in a position to assess the intentions of Nepalese men when they do decide to get married to a Nepalese girl from Nepal.
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| Reverend Dr. Bista |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 11:11 PM
I think Ashutosh Tiwari could never take a Nepali wife to USA. He does not like sex. This is the typical trend of some of the former students of STX.
How about your sexual life Mr. Bisho????
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| Rev.Dr. Bista |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 11:15 PM
I think you are right as Ashu Tiwari will not treat a Nepali girl in USA in terms of equality. He has a sexual dysfunction. Have I seen it? No. the evidence comes from his confession. That is my methodology based on observations.
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| druid |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 11:19 PM
you sound like you were one of the victim of Moran's humpfest. What's with this crusade to denegrate other people? But if your intetions are good, I with hold judgment
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| U2 |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 11:25 PM
I just wonder about a scenario twenty or twenty five years after the marrigae, when the kids would be in teens, completely americanised and speaking in american accent. How does the women adjust? Can she adopt to western culture there? Unlike back home in Nepal, she will not be able to go to maitee to get emotional support from mothers, sisters and brothers. Do the women get lonely? Does the the relationship between husband and wife get more strengthened, because each would need other more? Uh crazy question!
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 04-Dec-01 11:29 PM
Hey Mr Bista:
You are a hell of a pathetic creature. How sick are you? And you think you
are a reverend?
Just sit down, and think about your life in future. You will be very shameful to
think about what you are doing in this public forum. Obviously, you are a cheap
dirt, who should have been long ago thrown out to the land of convicts.
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