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| Username | Post |
| GP | Posted
on 25-Dec-01 08:20 PM
When one of very close relative visited here, we were discussing about the Satya Sai Baba and his name and photographs in Nepal's middle class to elite family. Satya sai baba 's works are praise worthy because his peoples are not involved in crimes that Rajneesh peoples were doing or socially worst. I liked his argument: He introduced some peoples to the Nepal's head or top leader at Satya Sai Baba bhajan kendras. He was surprised that Ring (authi), necklace and other jewellary were given in the name of Baba le dinu bhako to only those who are rich or of socially high status. His finding from those receipients were that they were getting those Ring and necklace, because they can give huge donations to the SSBaba kendras, but, the middle class peoples who can not vouch huge sums or influence others to vouch huge sums were never awarded the Ring and necklace. So, these magic stories are in fact cheating ideas. How do you think? GP |
| 93454475 | Posted
on 25-Dec-01 09:28 PM
Nothing Uncommon. As my mum always said-- 'balekai aago sabaile taapchan' coz it gives heat. Religous cults have to survive on the providers-- everything is about marketing in this world. We are living in the "Kali Yuga" which explains most of the stuff. |
| SM Sainju | Posted
on 25-Dec-01 10:07 PM
Confusing people and misguiding them to something that has no essence of what reality is perhaps the most hideous and dangerous crime one can ever commit. Such act surpasses Hitler and Stalin. Through out the history, we have seen people like this and so called SAI BABA is one of them ( a real cult ). These kind of people are expert in convoluting your mind making you believe in them. People want to hear good things about themselves. Eg: "Oh, something bad will happen to you in about a year.... but if you pray hmm... and donate a VETI and pray more, it will cast your bad aside." It sounds good and people believe in such. What is bad, however, is that such belief as more and more people tend to accept will do more bad to humanity in the long run. How? Teaching 2+2 = 5 to a child is not bad until the child has to face the reality, as one famous psychologist once said. I have met several people who strongly believe in SAI Baba. Some of their statements: "Sai baba gave me a SOON KO HATTI." "Lots of Nepalese saw SAI BABA's picture on the MOON, a few years back." "SAI BABA can fly." "SAI BABA turned a stone to gold" Just line Jesus christ turned water into wine.... "SAI Baba cured my cancer" bla bla bla ..... and many more..... ........ James Randi JREF offers a million dollars for some one who can show any paranormal effect. SAI Baba can take this test. It is very simple one. All you have to do is pass a very simple test under proper observation condition. If he passes, man he will be the real Messiah. SM Sainju |
| Nepe | Posted
on 25-Dec-01 10:09 PM
To learn about how asatya is satya sai baba, read the book "Sai Baba's Miracles: An Overview" available on line, http://psg.com/~ted/bcskeptics/sbmir/contents.html From the Editor's Introduction...... The Purpose of This Study The purpose of this study is to present, in summary form, the paranormal claims made about Indian guru and holy man Sri Sathya Sai Baba, and various investigations that have been done of them. The summary is intended for two audiences: those who have heard of Sathya Sai Baba through the second-hand stories told by devotees, but who have not looked at the original sources of these stories; and those who are familiar with some of the writings of devotees but not with the literature of those who have made investigations of his claims. For those who have a nodding acquaintance with the claims made by devotees, it may be helpful to have gathered in one place original sources of some of these stories. What follows is my collection of texts referred to by those who promote the claims of Sai Baba's psychic powers. Of course it is an abridgement; and any editor's selection is open to charges of bias. My rationale in selecting just this much of a much larger literature is that I am interested in just the paranormal claims, not the dogma of the religion. For the latter, the reader must refer to the sources listed in the bibliography. For those who are already familiar with the literature put out by the Sai Baba organisation and his devotees, this abridgement will be useful for assessing the claims made about Sai Baba's psychic powers. It will be helpful to have these writings detached from the theology. If the theology is sound, it will stand on its own. But the psychic claims also stand on their own, in the sense that we can raise the question whether these miracles ever occurred independently of discussing what they illustrate about Sai Baba's theology. And many readers who are familiar with Sai Baba's teachings have not had the opportunity to look at what the investigators have said. So, in this volume they will find a summary of what the investigators have had to say. Readers who wish to pursue these criticisms in more depth are again referred to the bibliography......... |
| Trailokya Aryal | Posted
on 25-Dec-01 10:21 PM
namaste, I agree with Mr Sainjuji. Yes, its a cult and needs to be banned. I always feel hurt when I pass through Narayanchour (near naxal). It used to be an open ground where i learned how to ride bike, played football and there was (and still is) a temple of narayan and sculptures of other dieties scattered around. But, now, there's a big, actually HUGE satya Sai Kendra and the ground is no longer accessible to people. The sai kendra has made narayan chaur loose its beauty and importance. I wonder who gave the permission to build that damn kendra in Naranchaur. Trailokya |
| ashu | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 05:31 AM
As a Nepali who was hammered into thinking about rationality, logic and good judgment in the US, I really don't mind people -- the elites or ordinary folks -- following Sai Baba as long as violence and illegality are not there. OK. I may not know much about Sai Baba (in both positive or negative terms), but my attitide is: who the hell am I to tell others what they should follow and what they should not? It's their choice, no? I mean, in Upper East Side, New York, people cough up a lot of money to pay their therapists. And in Baneswor Heights and in Bhainse Pati in Kathmandu, rich Nepalis come up with a lot of money to pay for the upkeep of the Satya Sai Mandir and so on. In Nepal, late King Birendra and his Queen especially were ardent Sai Baba devotees. Why, the current Defense Minister Mr. Mahesh Acharya is another well-known Sai Baba bhakta. Ditto for Dipendra Purush Dhakal, who, for a brief while early this year, was Nepal's Allan Greenspan. And quite a few of our comrades (given to Marxist-Leninist persuasions of various intensities) are known to visit that mandir in Narayan Chour, Naxal for lucrative blessings. I really do NOT know what to make of all this fuss over Sai Baba in Nepal. And so my lame explanantion is this: Our traditional temples, poojaris and festivals and so on are somehow NOT addressing people's genuine spiritual/religious hunger, somehow not addressing people's genuine desire to connect to one another on more spiritual terms, somwhow not addressing people's genuine desire to make sense of what's happening around them. I mean, look, seeking advice from a Nepali Hindu priest on a one-on-one basis about the ups and downs of your life is often a futile exercise. And maybe for most of these Sai Baba devotees, their rituals provide a sense of order, a sense of clearly defined duties, a sense of community of like-minded people, and so on. And maybe they want that -- desperately. I mean, how else do you explain the fact when you sit down to talk with Roop Jyoti -- a Harvard MBA and a Harvard Phd -- what you get are NOT the finer points of Nepali economy or business, but a missionary and a tad obsessive lecture on Bipasana Meditation. Jyoti, being Jyoti, assures you that BM cures you of your ills, whether or not you really are sick in some way. After some time in Nepal, however, you begin to sense that this whole country needs some massive dose of spiritual Prozac -- regardless of whether such prozac come bearing the name of Sai Baba or Bipasanna Meditation. People have too many questions, too many concerns, and too many 'chinta' and too many emotional fires -- all looking for some viable, constructive outlets. Emotional management, anyone? As Sai Baba has shown in his own way, it can be a big business in Nepal. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| SM Sainju | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 09:20 AM
Ashu, I must agree with you in regards to being indifferent about peoples choices to some extent. It is very easy to say for I am not the one to judge anyones choices, however, what becomes hard is the fact that some of these choices sometimes end up being echelon of humane problems in our society culminating to chaos. We live in an ever evolving society with set of principles and guidelines to follow them. It becomes our duty to obey these codes to live in harmony with every living creature on this planet. And these codes change in time to better suit our needs or humankind in greater. We must teach ourselves and our children the "Right way" to the best possible way that will do no harm to ourselves nor the humankind now or in the future. Mosaic of testimony unequivocally depicts that such culprits have led us to one form of calamity or the other in the past. Therefor it becomes our duty to abide by such principles to bring law and order in our society. Such culprits must be incarcerated within the realm of immoral code not by force but by the intellectual norm. what lies in our own surroundings today, beyond and beneath, is the result of yesterday. Therefore, we cannot afford to be indifferet about such choices and must act immediately to bring the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. SM Sainju |
| sparsha | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 09:33 AM
Ashu wrote: >>And so my lame explanantion is this: Our traditional temples, poojaris and festivals and so on are somehow NOT addressing people's genuine spiritual/religious hunger, somehow not addressing people's genuine desire to connect to one another on more spiritual terms, somwhow not addressing people's genuine desire to make sense of what's happening around them. << Interestingly, I agree with your lame explanation. It's the unsatisfied spiritual hunger that is causing the people to stray. I also agree with SM Sainju. And Trailokya, you brought back some old momories of "Cycle sikne dinharu". I also have spent hours in Narayanchaur trying to hang on to the "hyandal" and "paidals". One day as I was trying hard for "hyandal kavar", the cycle fell on a stone and one of the "paidals" got bent. Bent enough to cause me tremendous stress because it stopped rotating. It was only rotating half way. That day I was trying on my own. Didn't know what to do? I was so afraid to return that disabled cycle to the cycle-for-rent-shop (just across that dunge dhara). I tried using "Itta" and other heavy stuff but those efforts cause more damage because that paidal started to look a real "ghaite" one. So, doryaudai doryaudai...naxal bhagwati lai samjhera I returned the cycle. I disappeared as fast as I could after paying for that 45 minutes ride. Since then, I never went there to rent a cycle. |
| LongIslandIceTea | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 11:06 AM
Hi everyone: I think it is people's choice to believe what they want to. I myself do not believe that SAI Baba performs any miracle or whatever. But I do believe that all the money he receives as donations he uses for the welfare of the community. He uses them to run schools, hospitals and stuff. To me SAI baba is a spiritual teacher. whats wrong with someone who does so much good for the socety and welfare of the people? I do believe that SAI baba is not cheating anybody and he is a Saint. Its always bad when people start changing into fanatics. There is no point being a follower of BABA without really knowing what his teachings are. I have believe in Baba since I was 5 and now I am 25. I deny the fact that SAI Baba is any form of a cult. You guys may be stronger yourself but for lots of people they need some form of faith. Why would so many people have faith on Jesus or Allah? because lots of people need some sorta spiritual support. What wrong has SAI Baba done? If he can use his power of mind and benefit the community I dont see anything wrong. -LongIslandIceTea |
| joie de vivre | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 12:03 PM
I agree with LongIslandIceTea. Sai Baba is a spiritual leader and has never claimed to be "God". SM Sainju and Trailokya couldn’t be further off the mark when they call the Sai faith (for lack of a better word) a cult. A cult by definition is "a system or community of religious worship and ritual” and on the extreme side “a religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader”. Sai followers neither follow nor conduct any rituals that are out of the ordinary nor are they an extremist religious sect. Sai Baba is a spiritual leader who encourages individuals to dedicate their lives to service for humanity and practice virtues of truth, righteousness, peace, universal love and non-violence (the five principal values that Sai Baba holds as most important). Sai Baba has established a major university in India which consists of 6 colleges and 20 technical schools, all of which are TUITION-FREE. Sai Baba has established service organizations and charitable activities which adopt poverty stricken villages in India and are engaged in rural village upliftment programs. He has established charitable hospitals and his organization maintains over 250 charitable medical clinics, all of which provide FREE services. It is no wonder that Sai Baba has garnered a huge following from countries that range from the Far East to the West and Europe. Yes, his followers make substantial donations to the Sai Kendras. I see nothing wrong with that as all the money goes towards maintaining the various schools and clinics and funding the various development programs. Two interesting facts that most of you probably didn’t bother to find out about Sai Baba and the Sai Kendras: (1) Sai Baba encourages his followers to partake in and celebrate every religious holiday. He teaches EQUALITY of every religion and person. As a result Christmas, Hanukah, Ramadan etc. are celebrated with as much grandeur as Dashain, Diwali and other Hindu holidays in Puttaparti (Sai Baba’s Ashram); and (2) Sai Kendras are banned from are forbidden to charge any fees for any kendra activities nor are they allowed to solicit donations from the public in any manner. Center expenses are met by anonymous and voluntary contributions in a container kept for this purpose. If, according to SM Sainju and Trailokya’s reasoning, the Sai faith is indeed a cult, wouldn’t Buddhism classify as a cult too? After all Lord Buddha was a spiritual leader too, it was his followers who elevated him to the status of God. I have nothing against Buddhism and indeed believe in the Lord Buddha with as much faith and conviction as I do in Sai Baba, Christ, Allah and other Gods. HOWEVER, if one is to use a measuring yardstick, Sai Baba has done more for the common man than any other God ever has. Equating Sai Baba’s teachings and community of followers to cultism is like lumping all Muslims with the few fanatics who misinterpret the Koran and wage a so-called holy war or jihad against the West. |
| joie de vivre | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 12:07 PM
I should add that just as Sai followers are encouraged to celebrate and rejoice in non-Hindu festivals and religious holidays, people of every faith/religion are welcomed into the Sai Kendras though participation in the Hindu/Sai pujas and festivals is a matter of indivudual choice. |
| Biswo | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 01:39 PM
For some reasons, I am always skeptical about Sai Baba and his so called exploits. I don't know why a lot of Sai followers want to make more followers by propagating the stories of those magical rings, touches etc. Such claims only undermine their own cause. I have no problem with people joining Sai sect(?). What bothers me is the way public lands are appropriated (not only in Naxal, there was an attempt to grab a serene piece of land near Devighat), and the way people are being misled. Nepal's public lands shouldn't be given to the sect just because some of senior officers in administration seems to be following the sect.If rich people are following the religion, then why don't they give the money to buy land from their pocket? |
| Horizon | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 02:04 PM
Even though I am not a religious person, I agree with JDV that Sai Baba is a spiritual leader. His tangible contributions are obvious and the magnitude of his diverse followers is just amazing. How can an ordinary person accomplish such a feat? Volunteers from all over the world run everything in Puttaparti and much to my dismay, people get to volunteer after a long wait. Why are there millions and millions of people in this day and age so devoted to him? Ppl often hear from upper middle and elite class in Nepal about Sai Baba giving away authi, necklace etc but again how often these same people associate with the lower and not so elite class to hear out their stories? I have read and seen a lot of contributions to people from Sai Baba like JDV pointed out and the only thing against him is the conspiracy theory. To answer Biswo’s question – Why are public lands appropriated? Because he has a lot followers in Nepal and not just due to some senior officials. You said people are being misled and how exactly are people being misled ? |
| joie de vivre | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 02:05 PM
Biswo said: >I don't know why a lot of Sai followers want >to make more followers by >propagating the stories of those magical >rings, touches etc. Such claims only >undermine their own cause. That's true of every religion. You'll always find people who're misguided by their faith and think they should make up stories to attract and convert more people into their religion be it Hinduism, Christianity or Islam. BUT I assert again, Sai Baba is NOT God and therefore, no conversion is necessary to be a Sai follower. > >I have no problem with people joining Sai >sect(?). What bothers me is the way >public lands are appropriated (not only in >Naxal, there was an attempt to grab a >serene piece of land near Devighat), and the >way people are being misled. Nepal's >public lands shouldn't be given to the sect >just because some of senior officers in >administration seems to be following the >sect.If rich people are following the >religion, then why don't they give the money >to buy land from their pocket? I thought I mentioned in my earlier posting that Sai Kendras are not financially independent entities. Lands and any monies necessary for the erection and upkeep of such kendras are donated by Sai devotees. I seriously doubt that the Sai Kendra purposely went about trying to appropriate the land in Naxal or anywhere else. And if the land was unjustly given to the Kendra by some official or the other, what’re you going to do? Tell the official he can no longer believe in Sai Baba? Let me reiterate what I said earlier – EVERY religion/community has misguided souls who act on their own and without the approval of their congregation, that doesn’t mean all Sai followers are fools and Sai Baba is nothing more than a con artist. |
| joie de vivre | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 02:38 PM
GP wrote: >He was surprised that Ring (authi), necklace and other jewellary were given in >the name of Baba le dinu bhako to only those who are rich or of socially high >status. His finding from those receipients were that they were getting those >Ring and necklace, because they can give huge donations to the SSBaba kendras, >but, the middle class peoples who can not vouch huge sums or influence others >to vouch huge sums were never awarded the Ring and necklace. So, these magic >stories are in fact cheating ideas. I've never been to Puttaparti myself but have heard from my parents and several other relatives and friends, of the huge crowds and masses of people who visit throughout the year. I have heard that it can be several days and most often, even weeks before one is granted an audience with Sai Baba, and some people I hear, are turned away even after waiting for several weeks. I’ve heard people equate being granted an audience with Sai Baba with winning the lottery. It doesn’t surprise me that the majority of the people who are given gifts of rings, necklaces and other jewelry are people of means. Why? Simple. It is usually people of means who can afford to travel to Puttaparti and stay there for extended periods of time. How many poor people do you know who can afford to fly from Nepal to South India, or make the long train ride (of several days) and check into a hotel for several weeks? Another factor to consider is the point Horizon made: “Ppl often hear from upper middle and elite class in Nepal about Sai Baba giving away authi, necklace etc but again how often these same people associate with the lower and not so elite class to hear out their stories?” |
| SM Sainju | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 02:59 PM
JDV, I do not have any problem with anyone's teaching as long as it is good and does not infinge the morale code that is attainable to the best of our ability. However, I have a problem when I hear from SAI Bhakta like yourself or may it be of any kind of bhakta, that one possessing a supernatural power and misguiding people to some pedantic rubbish with complete dead end. While there is always a logical explanation to some so called miracles performed by people like Sai baba, more often than not these people have very hard time facing up to a challenger like James Randi ( JREF). Sooner or later Sai Baba himself will be dead and I am sure you will agree with me on this. But what is so ironic about this is that he claims to have brought someone back from dead. In a plain simple language, this is WRONG !!! and this is called CULT much like waco-fanatic David Koresh. I was born Hindu/Buddist became a christian and a muslim and now in the process of becoming a jew and a bahai. What is so great about these religions is that they all teach basic principles of life: love, care, share and live. It is we who interpret these in our own set of mind. This is when many things go wrong. Blaming each other for not being what they are "supposed" to be and bla bla bla.... Hate develops towards each other as a result. Look at the mountains of problems in our todays world, mostly caused by the way we have interpreted our religions. So someone intellectual like yourself needs to ponder profoundly to distinguish between what is wrong and what is right. You may find refuge now in them but these are mere cameo refuge which can pose a bigger threat to our own civilization in the long run. This is where we have to be extra careful. I bet you my buck sai baba would not take JREF test. SM Sainju |
| Homes | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 03:03 PM
Or maybe not so holy after all.... Hate to be the bearer of ill news, but type in "pedophile", and "Sai Baba" in any popular search engine on the Net and you may be in for a surprize. These aren't just allegations by the ignorant and the face-hiding-gossipers on the Net. I had read from some pretty reliable sources that the Red Cross, among others, pulled a lot of funds that were going toward the Sai Hospital when this news surfaced. Homes P.S Hey Vivs...don't you owe me an email...? |
| LongIslandIceTea | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 03:06 PM
here is a copy of baba's saying which I though you guys may be interested: There is only one religion, the religion of Love; There is only one language, the language of the Heart; There is only one caste, the caste of Humanity; There is only one law, the law of Karma; There is only one God, He is Omnipresent. Start the Day with Love; Spend the Day with Love; Fill the Day with Love; End the Day with Love; This is the way to God. You cannot see Me, but I am the Light you see by. You cannot hear Me, but I am the Sound you hear by. You cannot know Me, but I am the Truth by which you live. The Lord will be watching with a thousand eyes the least activity of man to discover any slight trace of selfless love sweetening it. Bear all and do nothing; Hear all and say nothing; Give all and take nothing; Serve all and be nothing. Make your life a rose that speaks silently in the language of the heart. Hands that help are holier than lips that pray. Learn to give, not to take. Learn to serve, not to rule. The Grace of God is like insurance. It will help you in your time of need without any limit. Action with Love is Right Conduct. Speak with Love and it becomes Truth. Thinking with Love results in Peace. Understanding with Love leads to non-violence. Yesterday has deceived you and gone, tomorrow is a doubtful visitor. Today is a fast friend, hold fast to it. Wealth that you hoard is not yours, wealth that you have given is really yours. Your virtue is your shield, your vice is the weapon that inflicts wounds on you. - Baba |
| Sansaar | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 03:41 PM
Having visited Puttaparthi in Andhra Pradesh, Sai Baba's headquarters, I was stunned by three things: i) the number and diversity of followers, ii) the scale of philanthropic activities undertaken, and iii) the enormity of Sai-driven local economy. On i) just too many people from all sorts of background. The whole ashram is like a permanent jamboree of spiritual and medical tourists, run by volunteers from the wildest places - from estonia to mexico. Very cheap to survive in the camp - lodging is free, and meals cost a ridiculously priced 3 rupees each - nothing fancy, but even the poorest can live on for months there with very little money. On ii) I saw state-of-the-art hospitals, including the ones that do fancy transplants free for the poor, drinking water supply in the whole southern swathe of Andhra, many colleges, schools, airport. Just a lot of philanthropic things seem to have been done by him. A useful way to channel his multi-million dollar fortune I thought. On iii) the local economy would collapse without Sai-related activities – food, lodging, transport, merchandise, gifts, etc.; the alternative for the local folks being subsistence agriculture in semi-desert conditions. I came away appreciating all the wonderful social work, but as for the spiritual, philosophical, and miraculous credentials, I returned a more hardened skeptic. That's my personal position. But it's okay for people to feel good about what they do as long as they are not being misled. Sai himself doesn't seem to make exaggerated claims about his abilities, but the accessorial propaganda can put one off sometimes. Anyway, in sum, I appreciated the philanthropic face of Sai. My mother and a blind relative who accompanied me during the trip are also happy because she found the whole thing pretty interesting, and says she is a devotee like all her friends. She is amused when I say I don't believe the things she believes in about Sai. But we have agreed to disagree about the man, and we are both happy individuals doing the things of our choice. The blind relative, of modest means, has an appointment at one of the Sai Baba hospitals for the year 2004. The treatment for him will be free. Does he believe in Sai’s miracles? He says he wants to preserve an open mind until he is partially sighted. Insallah, of course. |
| joie de vivre | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 04:22 PM
>I do not have any problem with anyone's >teaching as long as it is good and does not >infinge the morale code that is attainable >to the best of our ability. However, I have >a problem when I hear from SAI Bhakta like >yourself or may it be of any kind of bhakta, >that one possessing a supernatural power and >misguiding people to some pedantic rubbish >with complete dead end. While there is >always a logical explanation to some so >called miracles performed by people like Sai >baba, more often than not these people have >very hard time facing up to a challenger >like James Randi ( JREF). Sooner or later Sai Baba >himself will be dead and I am sure you will >agree with me on this. But what is so ironic >about this is that he claims to have >brought someone back from dead. In a plain >simple language, this is WRONG !!! and this >is called CULT much like waco-fanatic David >Koresh. I did NOT claim to have witnessed or have any knowledge of any supernatural powers that Sai Baba possesses, nor do I believe in miracles performed either by Sai Baba or any other spiritual/religious leader (for that matter I don’t believe Christ multiplied a loaf of bread and fish either). I don’t believe in such (to use your words) ‘pedantic rubbish’ myself. Do you know for a fact that it was Sai Baba who made these claims of performing miracles and bringing back people from the dead? Could it not have been some misguided bhaktas? I doubt that Sai Baba himself would ever make such an atrocious claim. You must have rather selective hearing (or sight in this case). I must’ve said at least three times that EVERY religion / community will ALWAYS have fanatics who misinterpret their faith and I strongly believe rumors and stories such as those you’ve heard are manifestations of these misguided bhaktas and/or fanatics. As for Sai Baba taking the James Randi challenge, are you proposing that every spiritual and/or religious leader should take this challenge? What a mayhem that would create! Christ was born of immaculate conception (!), he supposedly multiplied a loaf of bread to share with thousands and thousands of devotees and walked on water, and Moses turned the sea red with the blood of Jews and later parted it so his disciples could flee to safety. These are the examples that jump to mind right now but I’m sure Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam also have such tall tales of their leaders. Perhaps you’d also like to challenge those religions to take the test of fire that you hold so close to your heart, i.e. the James Randi challenge. Sounds to me like you’re branding every spiritual /religious community that hasn’t gained universal acceptance as a cult. >I was born Hindu/Buddist became a christian >and a muslim and now in the process of >becoming a jew and a bahai. What is so great >about these religions is that they all teach >basic principles of life: love, care, share >and live. I think it’s great that you’re embracing so many religions. You mention that the great things about these religions is that they all teach the basic principles of life: love, care, share and live(?). That’s PRECISELY what Sai Baba teaches too. In case you missed it the first time, let me retype what Sai Baba’s teachings are. He encourages people to dedicate their lives to service for humanity, and practice virtues of truth, righteousness, peace, universal love, and non-violence (these are the five principles of life according to Sai Baba’s teachings). Its no different from what you’re learning as a Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, Jew or a Bahai. >It is we who interpret these in >our own set of mind. This is when many >things go wrong. Blaming each other for not >being what they are "supposed" to be and bla >bla bla.... Hate develops towards each other > as a result. Look at the mountains of >problems in our todays world, mostly caused >by the way we have interpreted our religions. You said the magic words. It IS us mere mortals who (mis)interpret the teachings of our spiritual / religious leaders and as a result, our faith. Which brings us back to square one: misguided bhaktas and/or fanatics. >So someone intellectual like yourself needs >to ponder profoundly to distinguish between >what is wrong and what is right. You may >find refuge now in them but these are mere >cameo refuge which can pose a bigger threat >to our own civilization in the long run. I fail to understand how what Sai Baba is doing ‘can pose a bigger threat to our own civilization in the long run’. Perhaps you can enlightenment me as to how establishing free schools, charitable centers, free clinics and encouraging individuals to serve humanity and spreading the word of love, truth, right conduct, peace and non-violence can be detrimental to our civilization. Maybe I’m just dense but it seems to me that these are what is missing in today’s war-torn world. The only miracle I’ve witnessed in my life is my sudden transformation into an intellectual. I’m anything but. Yes, I do know how to distinguish right from wrong, thanks to the various teachings I’ve adopted for my own from Sai Baba, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity etc. I am a Sai Bhakta for the same reasons you’ve embraced all those different religions. However, unlike you, I have seen nor found no reason to convert to any religion because Sai Baba’s teachings to me are what religion is all about: service for humanity, truth, righteousness, peace, universal love and non-violence. It does however, seem to me that perhaps you missed out on a big part of the sermons you attended while trying out all those religions: tolerance. Bottom line: You’re happy with your religion(s), I’m happy with my mish-mash of religions and spiritual teachings. Peace be with you. |
| Biswo | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 05:52 PM
> And if the land was unjustly given to the Kendra by some official or the other, > what’re you going to do? Tell the official he can no longer believe in Sai Baba? JDV, I would decline to accept the land. People need to know who is giving them what. That's what political parties are supposed to do here in USA also. I don't think philanthropy alone sufficiently justifies an action. I don't want to compare Sai Baba with Pablo Escobar, but the example can be somewhat relevant here. He made stadiums, schools, roads, etc etc in Medelin. But he got the money by pervert means, right? So, end doesn't justify mean. And you know what, I am afraid our so called Saints are providing means for corrupt bureaucrats and businessmen to dump their illegal money. My reply doesn't mean to attack other's faith. I have my own very close relatives following Sai faith. But there should be sufficient check and balance to prevent such religious organizations from being front for diverse kinds of illegal activities. |
| xyz | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 05:55 PM
Excerpt from an article on Sai baba: http://www.salon.com/people/feature/2001/07/25/baba/ So far, the anti-Sai Baba forces have scored a few victories. Many senior devotees have defected. Last September, UNESCO yanked its cosponsorship of an education conference in Puttaparthi, explaining that it was "deeply concerned about widely reported allegations of sexual abuse involving youths and children that have been leveled at the leader of the movement in question, Sathya Sai Baba." Late last year, after Conny Larsson, a Swedish film star who once traveled the world speaking of Sai Baba's miracles, went public about his coerced sexual relations with the guru, the Sai Organization in Sweden was shut down, along with a Sai-affiliated school. A cover story in the weekly magazine India Today reports that following a story in England's Daily Telegraph, "Labour MP Tony Colman raised the issue in Parliament. A former home office minister, Tom Sackville, also took up the matter, saying, 'The authorities have done little so far and that is regrettable.' There is a movement now to urge the British Government to issue warnings to people wanting to visit Baba's ashram. |
| joie de vivre | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 09:43 PM
Biswo, lets be real here. It's very noble to say the Sai Kendra should've refused the land given to them but I doubt if anyone would refuse to land that was given to them gratis, yes, even you and I would probably take have taken it. I know I certainly would have. |
| joie de vivre | Posted
on 26-Dec-01 09:53 PM
Homes wrote: >Or maybe not so holy after all.... >Hate to be the bearer of ill news, but type >in "pedophile", and "Sai Baba" in any >popular search engine on the Net and you may >be in for a surprize. >These aren't just allegations by the >ignorant and the face-hiding-gossipers on >the Net. I had read from some pretty >reliable sources that the Red Cross, among >others, pulled a lot of funds that were >going toward the Sai Hospital when this news >surfaced. > I did as you suggested and found several articles on pedophile and sexual abuses in Puttaparti. If those allegations are indeed true, there's no doubt in my mind Sai Baba should be punished as any ordinary citizen would be punished. Having said that, it still doesn't take away what I've learned from his teachings. As perverse as his sexual orientation/actions might be, he has still done more good for the common man than any other God I know of. Don’t get me wrong though, I am NOT trying to defend, justify or make any excuses for Sai Baba. If he has indeed sexually abused his devotees, (after all he is but human, with human frailties) and like any other human, he should be made to pay for his crimes. P.S. Homes, I think the tide has turned, it’s you who owes me not one but two emails. |
| Tahalka.com | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 03:06 AM
Sai baba caught on tape. Check these clips: http://vclass.mtsac.edu:940/dlane/saivideo1.html |
| SM Sainju | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 08:13 AM
JDV, Accept my sincere apology for transforming you to an intellectual one but I still take the liberty to assume that you are not a dumb ass, either. Just a Joke :) This whole movement of Sai baba is driven not only by the fundamental principles of life: love, care, share, live and let live but also by the so called super natural power supposedly possessed by sai baba. He may not have claimed to have one but by virtue of demonstrating or making people assume that he is the one in fact, culminated this whole movement to where it is today. This is called CHEATING, and am I right when I say CULT? And for someone like you utterly ingnoring the fact that he has done such act again and again to substantiate his extra ordinary wherewithal not only makes you a fool but also a hypocrite. I am compelled to bring this up but please accept my sincere apology for labeling you in that way. Now, I hope you understand when I said that such acts pose a great threat to our entire human civilization. I do hope that you have the courage to really find what's behind all these... Take care and May peace be with you..... SM Sainju |
| joie de vivre | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 10:19 AM
SM Sainju, Apology accepted. Just be sure you don't make the same mistake of giving me more credit than due, twice :) You'd be surprised at how big a dumb ass I can be, but then again, perhaps you wouldn’t be, since you do go on to call me a fool and a hypocrite. >This whole movement of Sai baba is driven >not only by the fundamental principles of >life: love, care, share, live and let live >but also by the so called super natural >power supposedly possessed by sai baba. He >may not have claimed to have one but by >virtue of demonstrating or making people >assume that he is the one in fact, >culminated this whole movement to where it >is today. This is called CHEATING, and am I >right when I say CULT? Again I go back to my earlier argument of the miracles that different religious figure heads have supposedly performed (refer to examples I’ve used above, though having tried out so many religions I’m sure you know of more examples than I could ever come up with). I have to admit that I’d not read about Sai Baba’s sleight of hand tricks until last night. Though I agree with you on the point that Sai Baba (especially since he's a self-proclaimed spiritual leader and not God) should have been extra cautious not to promote himself or his organization through bogus claims of supernatural powers and miracles such as those of resurrection, doesn’t every religion you’ve encountered make such claims of their leaders? Our own Hindu Gods (many of whom were no more than Kings and spiritual leaders themselves before being promoted to the status of God by their ‘praja’) is rife with stories of miracles and supernatural powers, most of which sound like they belong in some Grimm brothers fairy tale. I’m not trying to justify Sai Baba’s tricks but the Sai culture has in some ways become a way of life or religion of sorts to so many people and if we’re to start questioning it, we might as well question every other religion too while we’re at it. >Now, I hope you understand when I said that >such acts pose a great threat to our entire >human civilization. I do hope that you have >the courage to really find what's behind all >these... After having read articles on pedophile and ‘magic’ tricks used by Sai Baba, I have to admit my faith has been somewhat shattered. But to most Sai bhaktas like myself the Sai culture isn’t all about the supposedly supernatural powers possessed by Sai Baba or his infallibility, it’s about the fundamental principles of his teachings, so even if Sai Baba ceased to exist tomorrow no one or nothing can take that away from us. jdv |
| joie de vivre | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 10:30 AM
SM Sainju, You know the funny thing about my participation in this discussion? I'm not a very religious person at all. I'm neither a practicing Hindu nor a practicing Sai bhakta. I go to the temple all of once a year (even if that some years), while in Nepal I never attended any Sai Kendra activities, I used to do puja and aarati at home, but stopped quite some time back since I realized I was doing it out of a force of habit, something my mom had made me do every morning and every night. I've always felt that as long as I have God (Christ, Allah, Shiva, Laxmi etc. etc. doesn't matter which one, they're all the same as far as I'm concerned) in my heart and I'm doing the right thing I didn’t need to ‘show’ my devotion or my faith by wearing it on my sleeves. So why am I here taking such an active part in this discussion? ...just something that’s been nagging at me... jdv |
| SM Sainju | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 10:43 AM
JDV, In fact, I applaud your effort to bring forward your sincere thoughts. It takes guts to do something like that for which I extend my hands of friendship to you. Friends??? SM Sainju |
| joie de vivre | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 10:52 AM
SM Sainju, I never realized we were enemies to begin with, to me this is just a healthy discussion between two people, not grounds for building an enmity on. If life has taught me anything, it's that two people can have very differing opinions and still be the best of friends. So yeah, friends! jdv |
| SM Sainju | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 10:54 AM
Well, I did not know you before. So just extending my friendship to you and that's all. SM Sainju |
| Nepe | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 12:32 PM
SM Sainju and JDV, friendship is fine. But please do continue the discussion. SM’s intellectually superb arguments and JDV’s unsettled questions are providing this thread with healthy food for thoughts. I am enjoying it very much. |
| joie de vivre | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 12:37 PM
Unsettled questions? If you're referring to the question I put forth on why I'm here arguing this point with SM Sainju, neither SM Sainju nor anything anyone else says would answer that question. It's for me to to do my own soul searching and delve into perhaps uncharted territory when it comes to my faith. |
| Nepe | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 02:11 PM
Yes, JDV, I was referring to the "some nagging questions" you have that appears to have you over-attracted to Sai Baba. Now you are saying nobody would answer that question. You know what, why don’t you spell out that question ? May be we all are being nagged by that question. It may be interesting to discuss on that too. Uncharted territory ? Sounds high, yet interesting. Why don’t you explain more ? Personally I am non-religious. However, I think there is an identifiable domain in human mind that can be called spirituality. The concept of god is not a prerequisite for it. God is for weak and dumb minds. My spirituality is fine without god. Sai Baba ? Forget about that con artist. I am not even allowing God to mislead my mind. Who the hell is Sai ? About Sai, Philanthropic activities ? Not bad in itself. But it is bad when it is used as a means to cover up/promote deception. One may argue, okay that’s a trade-off. But in the long run, it harms. SM Sainju has pointed to this danger in his elegantly written notes posted previously. Crowd of followers ? Crowd does not prove anything. Misguided crowd is dangerous. Sai’s spiritual preaching ? Does not quench me. There are more knowledge in the world than he is saying. Moreover, he is saying nothing new. Everything is already told. In addition, some are just sweet but empty words you find everywhere. Sai’s success (?) – Makes me understand why corrupt leaders are ruling in the countries like Nepal , India and likes. |
| LongIslandIceTea | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 03:23 PM
Hi: >. My >spirituality is fine without god. yeah you seem to be really spititual :( >Sai Baba ? Forget about that con artist. I >am not even allowing God to mislead my mind. >Who the hell is Sai ? why are you making remarks when you dont even know who sai is? you seem like you have not been thinking very clearly. Why do you make comments when you are not sure about it. >About Sai, > >Philanthropic activities ? Not bad in >itself. But it is bad when it is used as a >means to cover up/promote deception. Has anyone proved anything. We read on the net and is that what we believe? Lots of accususation against baba..has anyone been able to prove it, HUH? > Everything is already told. In >Sai’s success (?) – Makes me understand why >corrupt leaders are ruling in the countries >like Nepal , India and likes. Anybody can think and anybody can say good things. The question is being able to make people heard through the 'power of mind'. You may be the greatest thinker but what the hell..if you cannot win over peoples mind. Like there would be other Ball players in the Ghetto like Jordan but why would Jordan make it to the top. it is the same kind of thing. if SAI's message reaches millions of people then why dont we have respect for it and hope that it is the true message. Whats wrong with a message that teaches people to love each other. You have to look at it this way to. One reason why baba makes so much enemies is because he respects all the religions. No wonder why there are fanatics who do not agree with that. One reason why BABA is so popular in Nepal is because Nepal has always been open towards all sorta religion and cultural practises. And this is unlikely in other countries of the world. I have encountered lots of people ...lots even here in the US who do not appreciate the fact that other religion is a message of god too... no wonder why there are so many accusations without any proof. People do not want to hear that sorta thing. What does the world need? what has been the cause of all the world war. isn't it religion, HUH? even the next world war may be becuase of religious differences. SO, how much are we not to appreciate a message like SAI's. Is there anything wrong with a teaching that teaches us to respect and apreciate others religion.. whats your say on this? |
| Nepe | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 04:34 PM
LongIslandIceTea, If you do not want to listen to the accusations made against Baba, then there is nothing to talk about. Have a great time and enjoy the 'Chamatkars' of Baba. If Baba's preachings suffice your need. Its your business. For me, the world and life is far more complicated than Baba's preaching can handle, far more complex than a few charitable works can manage. There is nothing new in Baba's preaching. Some borrowed from here and there and some rubbish. Let me cite some rubbish preachings of Baba from your earlier posting: >There is only one law, the law of Karma. And ? So, what does the law of Karma say ? Has Baba said about that ? If he is talking about pre-determined fate, ask him what will be the winning number of Lotto tomorrow. >You cannot see Me, but I am the Light you see by. >You cannot hear Me, but I am the Sound you hear by. >You cannot know Me, but I am the Truth by which you live. >You cannot see Me, but I am the Light you see by. >You cannot hear Me, but I am the Sound you hear by. >You cannot know Me, but I am the Truth by which you live. Rubbish rubbish rubbish rubbish rubbish and rubbish. >The Lord will be watching with a thousand eyes the least activity >of man to discover any slight trace of selfless love sweetening it. Rubbish. There is no Lord in the first place. Then there is no way to find out what he does and what he does not. >Bear all and do nothing; >Hear all and say nothing; Do nothing ? Say nothing ? You must be kidding. >Give all and take nothing; >Serve all and be nothing. This looks better. But what is Baba himself doing ? >The Grace of God is like insurance. It will help >you in your time of need without any limit. Rubbish >Speak with Love and it becomes Truth. Nothing becomes Truth if it is not, no matter how you put it. Get it ? >Yesterday has deceived you and gone, tomorrow is a doubtful visitor. >Today is a fast friend, hold fast to it. Who does not know this already ? And so on... So much for what's wrong with Baba's words. |
| Horizon | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 04:46 PM
Hi Nepe, Even though your questions / comments are directed to JDV, I have a few questions / comments of my own. Hope I am not intruding. I am sure your spirituality is fine without god and there certainly are more knowledge in the world but there are lots of people in the world who just want little things in life and don’t want to shoot for the star or embark into eternal quest of knowledge. There are people who just want peace of mind and they find it in among other things, Sai Baba and his preaching. Now why can’t they pursue what they want without any judgment from non believers ? Crowd of followers? Crowd does not prove anything. Misguided crowd is dangerous. When you can get millions of diverse followers then it speaks volume. When often times we find ourselves contradicting each other on trivial issues, you think it’s easy to touch millions of lives? How is he promoting / covering up deception? Do you think all these people are fool? I could care less about Baba but I am sensitive to the millions who have faith in him. They obviously see things differently than you and I do and just because of that they don’t have to be weak, dumb and misguided. |
| joie de vivre | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 05:33 PM
Nepe, You have your beliefs, I have mine. You think Sai Baba’s a con artist, I think he’s a spiritual leader who’s a philanthropist to boot. Lets just agree to disagree on this shall we, since I know nothing you or anyone else says will budge me. Sai Baba may trick the crowd with ‘magic tricks’, he may be a pedophile (and as I mentioned in one of my earlier postings, he should be rightly punished for it if indeed those allegations are true), but that still doesn’t take away the patience, tolerance, humility, love and respect, not only for myself but for others, that I’ve learnt from being a Sai Bhakta. Lest I be accused of trying to propagate the Sai culture, let me end my say on Sai Baba here. Apropos the uncharted territory I spoke about, I don’t know how much clearer I can make it to you. I’ve obviously got to do some soul searching and either re-discover my faith or challenge it all together, but that of course, is a personal matter that you’ve no reason to be privy to. And if God is for the weak and dumb minded, I’ve no problem saying I’m all of those things. |
| Nepe | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 05:49 PM
To Horizon, >There are people who just want peace of mind and they find it in among other things, Sai Baba and his preaching. >Now why can’t they pursue what they want without any judgment from non believers ? If you are talking about freedom of choice a person makes, I would respect that. My concern is this- are these people given full range of choices to choose from, are they made equpped to make a informed choice, is somebody making unfair personal benefit from the vulnerability of weak and less informed people. I think these and similar questions constitute what SM Sainju termed "intellectual norm" to address such issues. From Sainju note: >Therefor it becomes our duty to abide by such principles to bring law and order in our society. >Such culprits must be incarcerated within the realm of immoral code not by force but by the INTELLECTUAL NORM. >what lies in our own surroundings today, beyond and beneath, is the result of yesterday. >Therefore, we cannot afford to be indifferet about such choices and must act immediately >to bring the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. you wrote: >When you can get millions of diverse followers then it speaks volume. When often times we find >ourselves contradicting each other on trivial issues, you think it’s easy to touch millions of lives? >How is he promoting / covering up deception? Do you think all these people are fool? >I could care less about Baba but I am sensitive to the millions who have faith in him. >They obviously see things differently than you and I do and just because of that they >don’t have to be weak, dumb and misguided. Yes, a crowd of millions speaks volume. What is important is to know what it speaks. That's all. We are not talking about a political norm (which should consider the size of a crowd), but an intellectual norm. And more than often, intellectual norms are not what a particular crowd would like to follow. I am a pro-choice. But more than that, I am a pro-informed choice. |
| Nepe | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 06:22 PM
To JDV, If you learned patience, tolerance, humility, love and respect from Baba, it is a good news. However, if you had no way to learn them without Baba, I am not sure if that is a good news. But again I agree to disagree as you proposed. On the other hand, you indicating a hunger for a spiritual quest is hard to ignore as a personal matter. I mean same goes here. I wish you a good luck. Let me caution, however, that if you look for the answer you wish, you may not find one. You may need to throw all those old answers to get the real answer. Counting on your openness, I assume you are aware of it and you will eventually find the real thing. |
| SM Sainju | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 07:10 PM
Well said Nepe: " If you learned patience, tolerance, humility, love and respect from Baba, it is a good news. However, if you had no way to learn them without Baba, I am not sure if that is a good news. But again I agree to disagree as you proposed" And any one, I mean any one, who believes in Sai Man's so called miracles, Huston, You've a got a problem, I mean a big problem.... SM Sainju |
| SM Sainju | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 07:25 PM
Houston, the problem is not only with sai man's miracle but also of any men or women for that matter. SM Sainju |
| An Indun Poet | Posted
on 27-Dec-01 08:12 PM
Have you guys seen David Blaine- he's got real stuff up his sleeves. Now he could turn himself into a cult-leader don't you think? http://www.davidblaine.com |
| Horizon | Posted
on 28-Dec-01 11:17 AM
Nepe, I am all for informed choice. Therefore, I am being sensitive to the millions who have faith in him and am not passing my judgment without any verification and validation. This is all I am saying. SM Sainju, I don’t think people follow him more for his sai miracles but because he practices virtues of truth, righteousness, peace, universal love and non-violence and more that JDV has pointed out on earlier postings. What kind of intellectual norm is it calling millions fools with problem without any basis? Don’t butcher other’s faith unless you can prove otherwise. |
| LongIslandIceTea | Posted
on 28-Dec-01 11:19 AM
hey NEPE: I think you have some big issues associated with BABA. I have a feeling that you are probably from some tech-head school like MIT or freaking STANFORD and you think like a 'chip'. bear with me here Mr. chip. >If you do not want to listen to the >accusations made against Baba, then there is >nothing to talk about. Have a great time and >enjoy the 'Chamatkars' of Baba. i did not say i believe in BABA's miracle. I said I confide with BABA's philosophy you know. > >If Baba's preachings suffice your need. Its >your business. I dont even preach to BABA. I read about him. I never said I preach to BABA. I have a respect for his message that blends all the different religion. >For me, the world and life is far more >complicated than Baba's preaching can handle, > far more complex than a few charitable >works can manage. I know this gives me a feeling that you are also one of the freaking 'lost soul' > >There is nothing new in Baba's preaching. >Some borrowed from here and there and some >rubbish. Let me cite some rubbish preachings >of Baba from your earlier posting: > WHAT YOUR 'HUMAN CHIP' need to understand is that most of the dialogue is translated from 'Telabu' into English. So it may not convey the exact message. If we try to translate MUNA-MADAN into english it may sound different. > >Rubbish rubbish rubbish rubbish rubbish and >rubbish. you point is valid. you are just too jealous. You are like lots other Nepalis who have NEGATIVE attitude towards everything. > >>Bear all and do nothing; >>Hear all and say nothing; you freak I told you it has been translated. hey you know what you might have become a 'CHIP' but the world does not work that way. If there are so many believers and if the message is right i do believe that ..there is nothing wrong with that. just you are a TECH-HEAD other people may not be. may be lots of nepalis find peace in BABA. its about faith you know. if it makes them happy and they dont go on killing anyone in the name of BABA i see nothing wrong with that. I have been to BABA's ashram in Nepal and I see all the prayers. Christian, Islam and Hindu..so whats wrong with that...it is just diversifying the way people look at things. did you get me my friend? the world does not work you way Mr HUman Chip? -LongIslandIceTea |
| joie de vivre | Posted
on 28-Dec-01 11:42 AM
>If you learned patience, tolerance, humility, > love and respect from Baba, it is a good >news. However, if you had no way to learn >them without Baba, I am not sure if that is >a good news. It's rather audacious of you to assume that I learned my values solely from Sai Baba. You talk about openness, perhaps you ought to take a leaf from your own book and learn to have an open mind. I can’t take off your blinders for you. |
| joie de vivre | Posted
on 28-Dec-01 11:42 AM
>If you learned patience, tolerance, humility, > love and respect from Baba, it is a good >news. However, if you had no way to learn >them without Baba, I am not sure if that is >a good news. It's rather audacious of you to assume that I learned my values solely from Sai Baba. You talk about openness, perhaps you ought to take a leaf from your own book and learn to have an open mind. I can’t take off your blinders for you. |
| sunakhari | Posted
on 28-Dec-01 12:03 PM
NEPE and others who are opposed to Sai Baba I tried to restrain myself from commenting on this thread because like you, I'm skeptical about him but unlike you, I believe in the goodness of all religions and philosophies and therefore, I keep away from trying to criticize another's faith and belief. My parents and other members of my family were staunch believers of Sai Baba and still are and it would be very pretentious of me to try and falter their beliefs. People have found solace in his ashrams and if thats the case, who are we to say this guy is this and that? We have no proof nor the right to defame the guy. I simply don't follow him nor others like him nor any religion because I strongly believe in the goodness of my heart and being kind and fair to others, thats my religion. But if you are a religious person, if you look into the nooks and crannies of your faith, you will find every faith intertwined and a religious person would be able to see that on his/her own w/o demeaning or degrading another person's belief. |
| beSmartMan! | Posted
on 28-Dec-01 01:15 PM
How a person like Sai Baba, with his socalled ALAUKIK SHAKTI (Jadu), exploits unconcious people: See the book "BHUT PRET KA KURA HARU" by Mod Nath Prasid. In the book , Mod Nath Prasid dymistified the way SAI BABA performs his JADU. Very Cunning! |
| SM Sainju | Posted
on 28-Dec-01 02:07 PM
To all my friends, This is getting more and more interesting and I could not stop reading and making some comments. Here is my thought: Throughout the history of human civilizations, the leaders have been followed for three reasons. 1. Fear: Eg: Hitler, Stalin ...... 2. Enlightenment: Eg: Buddha 3. Fake Enlightenment: Eg: I leave that for you to fill in.. So just to elaborate a little bit more on it, we have followed our leaders because we fear them or because our leader is an enlightened one. Unambiguously (to the best of my knowledge), Sai man does not belong to the first category, but correct me if i am wrong. That's sort of a good news. what is a sad news, however, is that the man does not belong to category # 2, either. I really have a hard time accepting someone as my leader who contradicts in his own principles. Do as I say, but don't do what I do. I am positive that JDV and many others will agree with me that at one point in time or the other the Sai man must have taught his deciples, "Thou shall not make fool of others." Making people believe in something that is not right is probably the horendous sin one can ever commit and I will say it, vociforously, if there is GOD or any supreme being for that matter, such sin will not go unpunished.. rather will be faced with a dire concequence. And those who bluntly and knowingly accepts the refuge in such faith because it meets his/her own needs but not because it meets the need of humankind in greater will be committing a sin evenly. So, we must preserve the solidarity which has brought us to this far. Such fanaticism is mere mirage of sheer ecstasy. Hence, it becomes our solitary duty to protect rights from wrong so that our civilization and heritage can function to serve ourselves in the best possible way. SM Sainju |
| beConciousMan! | Posted
on 28-Dec-01 02:16 PM
How a person like Sai Baba, with his socalled ALAUKIK SHAKTI (Jadu), exploits unconcious people: See the book "BHUT PRET KA KURA HARU" by Mod Nath Prasid. In the book , Mod Nath Prasid dymistified the way SAI BABA performs his JADU. Sai Baba talks about LOVE and COMPASION, but does not show the way to achieve the LOVE and COMPASION. With out knowing Human Bio-logy, Chemestry, and Psycology; Astrology; Physics; Anthrapology..., it is impossible to be LOVELY, COMPASONATE, and RELIGIOUS. Sai Baba is another tradition on tradition. He does not teach how to live wisely, and conciously. He wants people to be influenced. That is why he performs JADU. |
| sunakhari | Posted
on 28-Dec-01 02:19 PM
SM Sainju I think your first point is wrong. 1. Fear: Hitler Let us not forget how a leader comes to power. He was a man of great speaking power (aurotory {?}). He addressed the sentiment of the general public and he had not instilled fear in the general mass at all. We would be correct to say he terrorized the jews but the rest of the mass he swayed and that was why they followed him!! Sad but true! |
| Nepe | Posted
on 28-Dec-01 03:39 PM
To postings which were directed to me little earlier: JDV wrote: >It's rather audacious of you to assume that I learned >my values solely from Sai Baba. Of course you did not learn the values and virtues solely from Sai Baba. Nobody would. That’s my point. And this is also my response to LongIslandIceTea. He writes: >>For me, the world and life is far more >>complicated than Baba's preaching can handle, >> far more complex than a few charitable >>works can manage. >I know this gives me a feeling that you are also one of the freaking >'lost soul' I would rather prefer to be called a ‘free soul’. LongIslandIceTea, my intention is not to hurt your or anybody’s feelings. I am just speaking my heart out with hope that you would care to listen and perhaps dispute and discuss, and in the process I will learn a thing or two.. and things like that. I am a learner and always will be. Talking about learning, let me tell you what struck me just now after reading your note. You know, I never could understand how believers manage (or pretend, for the sake of possibility) to remain undisturbed by self-contradiction. Take you, for example. You wrote: >I did not say i believe in BABA's miracle. I said I >confide with BABA's philosophy you know. You do not believe in Baba’s miracles. That implies that you know the miracles that Baba performs in front of his devotees are fake. Then how you have no problem with that person who performs fake ‘miracles’ and lets his devotees believe in them ? How can you close your eye to his falsehood and be angry with people pointing to it ? How you find divinity and truth Baba so often talks about in them ? Can you not see Baba is ridiculing the truth itself ? Well, you can say, Baba is not the only one or the first soul to do such things. (JDV has talked about examples of such things in all religions, in his earlier postings). But that’s not my point. My point is I don’t care. I want to know the truth, whole truth, nothing but the truth. Perhaps that’s my problem, what do you think LongIslandIceTea ? Perhaps, I should not seek the truth. I will end up being a freaking lost soul ? Well, I am not yet ready to trade my aspiration to seek the truth with the opium of religion. There are too many self-contradicting, therefore trust-unworthy, things in religion. I don’t think JDV will ever find ‘the answer’ from religion whatever uncharted territory he would explore within its boundary unless he is ready to sacrifice the reasoning or succeed to put on a mosaic of reason and reasonlessness together. Miscellaneous: Intellectual norm, if there should be one, would not call Sai’s followers fools, but certainly question if the Guru is fooling the followers by ‘miracles’. And it will certainly show concern if human reasoning has been attacked and compromised. And it certainly questions the question that questions the questioning ! Baade Baade jaayate tatwabotha ! (My high school Sanskrit) Nepe |
| Nepe | Posted
on 28-Dec-01 03:45 PM
Oops... Should be, Baade baade jaayate tatwabodha ! |
| nep kancha | Posted
on 30-Dec-01 09:33 AM
HI, We nepali allredy have enough Gods Why we need this Imported Cult from India. But hey do you know that, our nation's king ministers and all bastard are his fallowers, I dont think so he is a god or something, just a another Dam smart Indian. Hey I saw him this morning in the Sky :) |