| Username |
Post |
| An Indun Poet |
Posted
on 10-Jan-02 03:43 PM
You think this will work? Now Rich people will have reason to have at least two cars. Or those who can afford only 1 car will have two number plates. Mexico city has the same problem...
I suggest rather that they levy high taxes to renew car liscenses to reduce this problem.
Of course building more wider roads would be the ultimate answer-- but we know how it is.
What do you think?
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| krishna |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 11:03 AM
>Of course building more wider roads would be the ultimate answer-- but we know how it is.
Urban planning and transportation experts have concluded that building more wider roads tends to result in more worse congestion. Such a proposal is ultimately growth, not smart growth.
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| sparsha |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 11:33 AM
I second krishna. Wider roads mean more traffic. I face it everyday. The highway that was expanded to twelve (12) lanes (six lanes each way) from four lanes to handle the traffic flow smoothly until 2013 (?) turns in to a reddish looking (by brake lights) parking lot during rush hours.
Making wider roads will only temporarily solve the traffic problem but in the long run creates more problem. Wider roads encourages people to buy more vehicles ..more vehicles mean more pollution....reliable public transportation sys. needs to be implemented and people should be discouraged from gathering vehicles.
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 11:47 AM
>Urban planning and transportation experts have concluded that building more
>wider roads tends to result in more worse congestion. Such a proposal is
>ultimately growth, not smart growth.
>Making wider roads will only temporarily solve the traffic problem but in the long
>run creates more problem. Wider roads encourages people to buy more vehicles
>..more vehicles mean more pollution....reliable public transportation sys. needs to
>be implemented and people should be discouraged from gathering vehicles.
Hmmmm.. Interesting. But is it time to worry about more vehicles that people will be encouraged to buy when we have more wider roads ? Shouldn't we first reap the benefit of having wider roads and then worry about the problem it brings ? How many good roads do we have in our country now ? Let's have some decent roads first.
Nepe
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| An Indun Poet |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 12:07 PM
If the roads are over-capacitated then its necessary for more (wider) roads. Its better if more people have vehicles-- isn't that better. By your suggestions, we would be going back in civilization. Please rethink again.
Isn't a 'ghoreto' better than 'goreto'?
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| krishna |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 12:19 PM
>Hmmmm.. Interesting. But is it time to worry
>about more vehicles that people will be
>encouraged to buy when we have more wider
>roads ?
Yes.
>Shouldn't we first reap the benefit
>of having wider roads and then worry about
>the problem it brings ?
No. That's completely against the 7 Generations Rule and violates the Precautionary Principle.
>How many good roads do we have in our country now?
Dunno for sure. Few, if any, I reckon.
>Let's have some decent roads first.
Repair the existing ones and enforce traffic laws. Repairing sidewalks and removing bricks and garbage from roads would help widening.
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| krishna |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 12:24 PM
>If the roads are over-capacitated then its
>necessary for more (wider) roads. Its
>better if more people have vehicles-- isn't
>that better. By your suggestions, we would
>be going back in civilization. Please
>rethink again.
Global experience proves your assertions wrong.
>Isn't a 'ghoreto' better than 'goreto'?
Clarify, please.
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| An Indun Poet |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 12:39 PM
'ghoreto'== road wide enough for the horses/cattles, basically wider road.
'goreto' == small path-- typically a small path for people.
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| NK |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 12:41 PM
"if the roads are over-capacitated then its necessary for more (wider) roads. Its better if more people have vehicles-- isn't that better. By your suggestions, we would be going back in civilization. Please rethink again.
Isn't a 'ghoreto' better than 'goreto'?"
An Indun Poet,
are you proposing we build more roads, squash all those villages and build a super highhway a-la-New York in the 50s (i could be wrong with that decade but it was around then)? which by the way if they had succeeded there would have been no Village, nor SOHO...
The emphasis should be on more pubic transportation, underground trains in conjuction with better maintained roads, of course.
Hey look at California the home of super highways and look again. do you see the nightmarish traffic jam -EVERYDAY??
and I think it is Goreto - non aspirated 'G' the hard sound of G as in God.
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| sparsha |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 12:51 PM
AIP prabho,
kata ghoreto ra goreto ko pacchi lagya bhanya?
bato farakilo matrai parera samsasya k suljhantyo? jana sawari ko bhara pardo byabastha garnu parchha kya....
char lane ko bato barha lane puryauda pani samasaya jhan pahileko bhanda khattam bhayo re hamro nebarhudma... rat bhari rungyo budi jimdai ...kasto nabujhya jasto garya bhanya!
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| NK |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 12:55 PM
tyata bhanya!:)
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| krishna |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 01:19 PM
Thanks for clarifying. My answer to your question is that it depends on many factors. Bigger (wider) isn't automatically better; complex problems rarely require simple or simplified solutions.
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| An Indun Poet |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 01:21 PM
>AIP prabho,
>
>kata ghoreto ra goreto ko pacchi lagya
>bhanya?
>
>bato farakilo matrai parera samsasya k
>suljhantyo? jana sawari ko bhara pardo
>byabastha garnu parchha kya....
>
>char lane ko bato barha lane puryauda pani
>samasaya jhan pahileko bhanda khattam bhayo
>re hamro nebarhudma... rat bhari rungyo
>budi jimdai ...kasto nabujhya jasto garya
>bhanya!
I think Global exeperience is not quite there to pinpoint our problems. Didn't the wider Prithvi Highway provide less congestion than before. Isn't the wider roads built around tudhikel helping? I don't think we have enough roads to put a 'global perspective' to it yet.
Our roads are over-capacitated. Congestion problems occur due to bottlenecks and improper logistical planning. Wider and more roads will provide solution in the short run as well as the long. Wouldn't you think that more public transportation means more roads as well.
Just to support wider demand, wider roads specially in Kathmandu will help.
Now about public transportation-I think in Nepal, people do more car-pooling than anywhere else (15 kids in a Maruti van to school). Public buses are so packed that you will have to pull yourself out of the crowd to breathe.
So what is the solution? More wider roads, aternate public transportation (is there anything else than subway that doesn't need roads, i meant in Ktm).
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| krishna |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 01:50 PM
Global experience is there to pinpoint Kathmandu's transporation problems. Nepali planners should have the horse sense to tap it. Experience shows that the approach you advocate fails. It's no skin off my nose if K-du goes on a road building spree--I don't live there. I just think what you are suggesting is very unwise, costly, dangerous, and shortsighted. Finally, local experience (since the rest of the world's experience has absolutely no applicability to anything in Nepal, eh) in K-du proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the ass pays for what the head doesn't think of.
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| sparsha |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 01:58 PM
AIP,
“Isn't the wider roads built around tudhikel helping?”
I am not so sure. Only on Vintuna day I used to see so many motorbikes..but last time when I was there in ktm. (3 years ago) everyday was Vintuna day. Those motorbikes, Courtesy of Kistabandi program, were Those motorbikes were creeping and crawling everywhere..between buses, peoples, three wheelers….
“I don't think we have enough roads to put a 'global perspective' to it yet.”
So, when time is with us we should ignore the warnings only to regret later and let people say “Nepali ko buddhi pachhadi hunchha”.
“Congestion problems occur due to “bottlenecks” and improper logistical planning.
Do you wonder where this “bottlenecks” fell from?
“Wider and more roads will provide solution in the short run as well as the long.”
Wider roads will provide solution in the short run. Agreed. But in the long run? I doubt.
“Just to support wider demand, wider roads specially in Kathmandu will help.”
The demands will keep growing…how in the world would you be able to keep up with that? How wide do you see our roads? 5 lanes? 15 lanes? How wide are you talking about and how do you know that will solve the problem for good?
I was recently in Italy and Switzerland. While driving from Venice to Zurich, I found the high ways [for the most part it was 4 to 6 lanes (both ways)] pretty much open. A friend of mine in Switzerland mentioned that Tax is pretty high for vehicles there. He said he would rather take public transportation than accept a free gift car.
“Now about public transportation-I think in Nepal, people do more car-pooling than anywhere else (15 kids in a Maruti van to school). Public buses are so packed that you will have to pull yourself out of the crowd to breathe.”
I am talking about a reliable and well managed public transportation sys. not disarrayed public transportation. It was right after the evening and I was waiting for a bus to goto Chabel (Chabahil). A minibus “khalasi” was screaming “chabel…bauddha…la chabel boudhha…” we were about 6 people inside. When that khalasi saw a large group of Balaju bound people. He quickly went to the driver. They talked and khalasi says now the bus goes to Balaju not chabel…bouddha….ignoring people’s complaint he screamed again….la…balaju…balaju..
“Wouldn't you think that more public transportation means more roads as well?”
No. I think more commuters in less vehicles.
So what is the solution? More wider roads, aternate public transportation?”
A systematic well managed public transportation. Having said this I am not against any road widening project or routine maintenance of roads. I just don’t think just by widening roads traffic problem(s) won’t go away but more will come.
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| KE Kura |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 02:23 PM
First of all, don't compare the congestion problems in major U.S metros to Nepal. That is because Nepal is so far behind in having a good transport network.
As for allowing less cars and even/odd system, that is just not right. First of all, Nepalis pay over 100% import taxes in addition to all the other taxes. On top of that you want to penalize them more.
Do you guys know that the govt. doesn't use the revenue it collects from these taxes to improve roads! That is ridiculous.
We are talking as if Nepal is filled with cars. Less than 1% of the population own cars. Give them a break.
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| An Indun Poet |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 04:22 PM
Thank you for your insight. However I totally disagree. If you really look at how the public or any transport is used in Nepal, you will see that we are making the maximum use of it. My example: 15 kids in a maruti van supports that and your example - a chabel destination bus going to Balaju supports the same thing (sorry that you had to get off). Since more people were going to Balaju, the bust went to Balaju. As a customer you suffered, but if you look at the productivity of that bus, its betterif it went to Balaju. I remember when I was on a visit to Pokhara and took the 'group' cab from Mahendrapul to the Lake Side, the drivers would switch of the engine all the way to Prithvi Chowk- saving "petrol". Nepalese are 'eco-concious' via economics.
You guys are trying to compare to Switzerland and New York and LA, while Nepal does not even have the littlest luxury of talking about roads. Tell me a single road that you think that does not need expansion (widened). Yeah of course you will say Nepaliko buddhi pachi aaucha. But tell me who's 'buddhi' agaaadi aaucha ta?
You know what bottlenecks are? They are the narrow roads that clog up. Now if you widen these bottleneck, wouldn't there be less congestion. Let me tell you this, you are driving on Route 66 (my favorite highway) on a two lane. You are going 70 miles per hour, and then you come into a construction zone, the road has been narrowed to a one lane. So does this cause congetion or not?
Wider roads in KTM could mean more vehicles on the road, that also means more people on the road, more goods on the road, thus more business. I don't goto New Roads on Fridays or Saturday, coz, the roads are too narrow, its tought to find a parking place or you might get beaten up if you don't watch where you going (its always your mistake if you are driving a car and you hit a pedestrian, or a bike or bicycle). Isn't that lost business?
You know why it seems like Vintuna rally every day nowadays-- coz we have narrow roads. If we had wider roads, you wouldn't even notice them.
I do agree that we need a more systematic roads and traffic system. The traffic-lights at Thapathali (which was widened by the way), has really helped.
I think this argument boils down to this-- I said-The ultimate answer would be wider road. Because I did not add 'proper traffic' system, you guys found an argument on this. I didn't say does not mean tha I am against it. But you guys are wrong to say 'wider roads' don't work but brings more problem to Kathmandu. You should have rather said, 'wider roads' without proper managment will be problem.
Anyways, I still would rather walk on a 'ghoreto' than a 'goreto' if I had my wish.
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| hey |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 04:50 PM
1 lane each way is too small........................2 lanes is good...............3 lanes are the best...........................................the whole problem that wider roads don't solve congestion problems is when you start having 5 and 6 and 7 lanes.
In Nepal, we are still at 1 or maximum 2. But where there are 2 lanes, as the gentleman pointed out there are bottle necks.
Congestion in the U.S is because of too many vehicles. A medium sized city like Des Moines has more vehicles than the whole of Nepal!
Os, the first solution is do some city planning.........widen the roads........and then enforce traffic rules.
Use the money that you get from vehicle tax to improve roads. Don't penalize the owners of cars.
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| sparsha |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 07:18 PM
AIP,
"..However I totally disagree...", me too (with your logic) though not totally but mostly.
"..a chabel destination bus going to Balaju supports the same thing (sorry that you had to get off)..." Thanks for saying sorry but what I meant to point out was the disarrayed- ill managed, unreliable, and unpredictable- system of public transportation. A glass half filled or half empty like kura bho ki Agra ra Gagra ko kura bho yaha?
Though, i like to write more but today is friday and I just decided to enjoy the evening without talking about roads in Nepal. For now, all wider roads, all those bus drivers who change their destination of service at the last minute, and sero fero..(including your ghoreto).all yours. Good luck.
have a good weekend.
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| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 11-Jan-02 10:39 PM
In this topic, I agree with Krishna and Sparsha Bros,
My validations:
1. Bangkok had problem of road congestion. I remember once
I went to Nepali Emb. in BKK, and to pass 12KM it took 2 and
half hours. Why? A friend of mine who did Ph.D. in transportation
engineering (urban road ...) gives following explanation to me:
Bangkok roads have lanes too wide lanes. Wide lanes
means smaller vehicles try to pass through (overtake)
the space between two vehicles in adjacent lanes, thus,
forcing 3 vehicles to occupy 2 lanes. Thus, when they
move ahead, finally, they find bottle necks. Thus,
vehicles have stopped and traffice jammed for hours.
In turn, in Japan, the road lanes are show narrow
(just fit) if you are new driver or a driver who got
license in Nepal without appearing to SP Karyalaya
(though money and connection), you can hardly drive
iin Japan. Thus, there is no question of occupying
2 lanes by three rows of cars. It should not be
forgotten in KTM too. One of the biggest
problem I had seen in KTM is in front of ASCOL.
Vehicles are stopped while another vehicle tries to
overtake stopping vehicles coming from
opposite side. Its really in mess.
2. Signal: BKK has such worse signal that does not
work and human hand control finally preceeds
light signals. In Japan, and other developed
countries, where road singals along a main
road have sybcronized signals, i.e. all the
signals have green and red lights in such
a way that they make least obstructions
and that avoids phase difference problem,
that we can find in BKK, and of course in
Nepal too.
3. BKK and KTM have similarity. Both countries
were never colony of wwestern world, that means
they have no useful railway system, which asked
everyone to depend on road traffic. Thus,
fast growth of econmy and liberal rules in
getting a private car created chaos in road
traffic congestion.
My suggestion, the bus or minibus stops
within KTM city should be spaced atleast
1000m apart, so that a commuter will have
to walk maximum 500m, and if number
of stops are less, the bus mania peoples
will start walking rather than taking bus
for 1km distance. As Baneswor or Gyaneswor
or Nayabazar are just 2km away from
Singha Durbar, there is practically no need
of having cars or bus. In Japan, if you
have job in govt. or private companies,
they usually, do not offer you Parking
Ticket(Pass) nor they offer you transportation
cost. Its just 20m walk and I can
see peoples walk 20min to get into public
bus, why the hell in Nepal we need to
take bus to go to office which is just
20min away? Its all because bus stops right
infront of your office.
4. KTM's another biggest problem is the foot
path. Wow, I was so surprised when I first came
to Japan about 10years back i.e. in 1992.
The footpaths are so big you will probably drive your
car if you get such foot path in Nepal "foot path
kin yatro thulo chahiyo?". another surprising thing
with Jap. Footpaths are that you must ride your
bcycle on foot path and there is no space for you
to drive on main roads. I think if we can have wider
foot path, we can surely have better traffic management
and slow moving traffic could be separated from main
road and peoples will be encouraged to buy bicycle
than car or motorbike. Because its more convenient and
cheaper, at least to lower class citizen. Wow, I had
seen one Peon in a govt. office in Pokhara commutes
with his own motorbike "Honda" everyday. Great.
For him the peon post is pride rather than a need.
5. Descent peoples and drivers: In nepal, I had
seen peoples walk on the middle of road (the
taxi driver of the taxi I rode), and drivers push
horn so much, the commuter does not leave the
road and driver has to wait and overtakes
through another lane, while making a gali
through his window to the commuter. Its
so interesting, and contrasting for me, I really
enjoy, because my stay there was just for
a few days. So, we need education.
In Japan, the drivers always allow peoples
to cross the road if they are trying from
Zebra while the walker's signal is
green, and walking peoples also do not
walk while light is red. So, they have mutual
understanding? Why? because both of them
have or own car, and both become walker
and driver and vice versa. Thus, they know
each other's problem. But, in Nepal, there
are two classes of peoples one who never
own his/her own vehicle and other who never
walk on the road. Thus, they have rivalism
and chase each other. "Tero bau ko sadak
ho ra yo?". We need education, and education
might help, but, I am not sure whether education
will help as long as we have two contrast classes
of having and not having private vehicles.
Well, recently, a couple (my close relatives
) were here, I took them here and there
on my own Sunny SuperSaloon, and I hardly
pushed horn (probably never during those
10days driving with them), they were
surprised so much that in certain occasions
one of them even told me "I won't have
that much passions to wait for some
crossing the road". Because I was letting for
someone who has not even entered zebra
crossing but, I knew he is supposed to cross,
and looking for my response, and as a rule
of common sense/ road manner in this country,
I had to allow him (though I would have gone first).
Can I myself expect such manner in Nepal, when
the counterparts do not have rules? Nepal
is country where rule "NO RULE", and thats
what is our freedom. I had seen a banner,
Our Banner is "NO banner", how funny
class of peoples we have. We love to
disobey the rules, we praise someone who
can get things bypassing the que. We
deserve such traffic congestion.
My proposal:
1. Education on traffic, road manner
2. strict laws and monitoring.
3. expensive tax
4. more public buses, and stops should be
distanced between 800 to 1000m, so that
max. distance to walk between stops will be
400-500m.
5. Start or plan subway system between Maharjgunj to City center
Balaju to city center. Sitapaila to City center. Satdobato to
City center can be metro, because that root has
cheaper land. Make a surface not subway, train along Chakrapath.
Let private companies invest money.
6. Students living within 2km shoudl be
discouraged to to get discount, and give more discounts
to those who are living quite far from schools.
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| odd-even |
Posted
on 14-Jan-02 05:33 PM
It is important to have traffic rules enforced properly. But there are two major problems with that in Nepal.
1) People have no respect for rules. Most people think that rules don't apply to them and second of all, the police are so incompetent that they command no respect. (This is a discussion by itself, a problem of inferior leadership)
2) Before you can start enforcing rules and hope people will honour it, there needs to be the appropriate environment. You cannot have the roads as is and expect people to be understanding.
As the gentleman above pointed out, in Japan people are more apt to follow the rules because they have the facilities and know that their following the rule will help everyone. On the contrary in Nepal, you can't expect people to be patient and wait for pedestrians to cross the road because it will take you hours to get anywhere. Thus, you first need to improve the facilities.........at least make it bearable.
Without improvement of facilities and institutions, you can't expect the general public to be sympathetic and understanding. For that we need leaders that are selfless and dedicated. The problem of traffic is just a manifestation of the anarchy among the people and the apathy of the "leaders".
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| Surya |
Posted
on 16-Jan-02 06:01 PM
Do any of you know a good finance coompany in Nepal that finances car purchases.
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| JC |
Posted
on 17-Jan-02 02:12 AM
>Do any of you know a good finance coompany
>in Nepal that finances car purchases.
HiSef, ACE, Oriental, etc.
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