| Username |
Post |
| ashu |
Posted
on 07-Feb-02 06:33 PM
"This space will be featuring interesting articles, poems, essays and literary works that are interesting and entertaining. If you have any such work, please email to literature@sajha.com. "
This is what I just read on the right-hand side corner.
And my question: Why this special treatment for literature?
After all, to feature "interesting articles, poems, essays and literary works", isn't having a usergroup (as it is on the left hand side) called "literature" enough?
Or am I missing something?
I say all this because, let's face it, (amateur and ecen professional) literary
efforts by us Nepalis -- whether in Nepal or outside, whether in Nepali or
English language -- are, with a few refreshing exceptions, really jhoor, khattam and hopelessly bad.
I sense that most people do not want to say such things out aloud for fear of offending our very vulnerable writers, poets and other self-declared literary
types. But, come on, how long are we to hide this veil of silent mediocrity?
I mean, if you write a bad computer program, other Nepali computer
programmers could immediately tell you that it's a bad program and suggest
ways for betterment. If your economic reasoning has flaws, other capable Nepalis could immediately point those out, and so on and on.
But why is that if you write some (crappy) poem or a do a (khattam) book review or write (a patently jhoor) essay, you can somehow dress it up as "a work of literature" by putting in some section like the one above and get away with it?
When you do that, to the rest of us -- non-literary types who love "good" literature -- it usually means that your work is somehow beyond criticism
because whether it is or not someone has already decided that it IS indeed a
piece of "literature".
With standards so easy, no wonder, then, almost every one of us is a kabi and every other person is a writer and a definite "sahityik" type -- making it very hard for us non-literary types to discriminate between really good writers/poets and their jhoor/bad/hopeless colleagues.
And so , folks, to BETTER the state of Nepali and Nepal-related works of literature (broadly defined) everywhere, let's stop handing out free passes to those Nepalis who claim to "do" literature.
Instead, to save literature from the literary-types, let's start holding them to higher, rigorous and even vigorous standards.
And how do we hold them to to higher, rigorous standards?
Well, by NOT giving a free pass to them to have an exclusive, pre-certified-as-work-of-literature type of forum,
and by subjecting their PUBLIC writings to public debates, to open discussions
and to the process of relentless inquiry by all thoughtful, interested Nepalis, and by letting issues related to judgments, tastes and merits evolve through back-and-forth discussions.
Else, my fear as a literature-lover is that we will continue to have "literature" all right -- but in bad, mediocre, dutiflly lifeless forms.
These are my thoughts.
What do you think?
Your comments and criticisms welcome.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| san |
Posted
on 07-Feb-02 07:32 PM
Dear Ashu dai,
The reason for adding the notice is because we haven't had anywhere close to any substancial posting in the literature section since Nov 2001. It is to promote the literary works (which will go to the literature section) that this notice was added.
I am sure there are lots of visitors who like to write and with this I want to send out the message that this site is actively looking for your literary works.
It might have been a little misleading due to the fact that I requested people to send to a separate email address. I have seen this kind of notice in other sites and am checking to see if people feel more comfortable sending their literature rather than posting to the site. As you know this site has grown so much due to our ability to constantly experiment with new things and stick to what works! (and right now it seems the literature sections needs a little boost.)
I appreciate very much your concern for this site.
Regards,
San
|
| torilaure |
Posted
on 07-Feb-02 09:24 PM
Hi there,
After reading a book I either find it good, bad or somewhere in between. One occasionally comes accross a great book(personal rating, of course). However, I wouldn't be able to give much of a coherent answer to justify any of the above rating to any particular book. It is just how I feel about that particular piece of writing.
Therefore, I find it quite amusing when reading literary reviews. Specially when reading a review of a work that I have already read, the way the critic talks about the writing technique of the writer, how he play with the words, how the meaning of certain work is supposed to reflect the society (or any other cause),etc; it makes me look like a bad reader. I do not look for those things while reading a book. I certainly do not 'try to think' what the author 'might be trying to say'. My point is if I am paying to read somebody's book, it is the author's job to get his /her point accross clearly.
I'm not sure if many of you will agree to what I say. Maybe, you are a good reader and do try to find different connections related to the book or get an overall picture. Or maybe, the critics are just doing their jobs. Anyway, it would be intresting to hear how other people read books and rate them and whether certain literary review will change their initial response to the book.
Amar Gurung
|
| An Indun Poet |
Posted
on 07-Feb-02 10:10 PM
Ashuji: Ok I am jhur khattam poet, my literary work is not even worth mentioning. But how am I going to know? How am I going to improve? Shouldn't there be a playground for the "literary" buffs. You always have the option to ignore.
What is wrong to promote literature even if its jhur. No one is asking for royalty for their work here. Even if you are able to find one or two good writing, isn't that worth something.
I have realized Ashuji you are a very resourceful person, but a lot your posting are worthless to me, but I am grateful for few ones that are of use to me.
Hilomapani Kamal Fulcha.
|
| An Indun Poet |
Posted
on 07-Feb-02 10:21 PM
Let me clear things up.
I have realized Ashuji you are a very resourceful person, but a lot your posting are worthless to me, but I am grateful for few ones that are of use to me. So I still count you as a resourceful person. I would not midn if every posting of yours is highlighted in the forum.
Some of the works by Biswoji, Namita Theune are very readable. If there was no suskera.com, I would have never known them. Sajha.com being a sajha place for all of us, it is worth the effort.
|
| _BP |
Posted
on 07-Feb-02 10:25 PM
Ashu, I love it when you use the term "jhoor, khattam." These two words are very quaint but expressive. :) Hey...maybe that in itself is literature! It is truly hard to find an English equivalent to such Nepali colloquialism.
|
| Assutoss |
Posted
on 07-Feb-02 10:32 PM
Enough of Mr Asshu(brown nose, i AM ABOVE THESE MEDIOCRE people, Ihave better taste in literature, therefore i am harvard supreme).
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 08-Feb-02 02:10 AM
San,
I got your point.
Thanks. (but see below)
Indun Poet,
Too bad that you seem to take my comments a bit personally.
In an open forum like this, that has to happen, and that's life.
FYI, I have NOT read any of your poems so I don't know whether I as a reader enjoy your poems or not.
Since you brought up their names, let's say that I have read NK's poems, and have greatly enjoyed them. I look forward to reading more of her poems here
and on suskera.com. As for Biswo, I -- as a reader, so far -- like his non-fiction works much better than his attempts at fiction.
BP,
Yes, I love the words "jhoor, khattam. They are INDEED very expressive and seem to come straight from the gut.
But there's ANOTHER SIDE to this "jhoor, khattam" equation, which is so
easy to miss by us Nepalis.
So let me make this very clear.
If you say that something is jhoor, khattam and ALWAYS leave it at that, then
that attitude/behaviour itself would be, well, jhoor and khattam.
One can't go very far in life by saying stuff like that, always sniffing and snorting and so on. And it's so easy to be cynical and hypercritical -- and eventually die of ulcers :-)
But who wants to be cynical and hypercritical?
Not me!!
And so, other side of the equation is to say something like: OK, this is jhoor and khattam for this, this and this reason, BUT HERE IS ONE WAY WE (you and I) COULD MAKE THIS BETTER . . . and you then give your reasons, suggestions
and evidence in an open, honest, peer-to-peer way.
Now that's the kind of learning -- the process of getting honest feedbacks from people I respect, admire and trust or even from absolute strangers -- I would totally go for, and would urge other fellow-Nepalis to make more use of too. Sure, you may still disagree with others' judgment, but at least you have the benefit
of more minds than one.
You know, at times, it's so easy to get so much praise -- at least in public -- in Nepal and among Nepalis that after a while you feel like shaking off the cobweb
of easy victories and of relaxed mediocrity, and you really look for for honest-to-God, blunt, no-holds-barred visceral evaluation of your work.
If you have little self-confidence and huge ego, you will be shattered/destroyed by this process, and may never work/write again.
But if you have a little ego and huge self-confidence (a trait I 0admire!), then you end up learning so much from others, and that makes your work, writings and whatever so much better.
And when your work better, write better and so on . . . your productivity gets better, and when that happens, you make more money, have more influence
and so on.
Whether we are poets or writers, doctors or economists, computer programmers or Web designers, we can all benefit from honest, no-holds-barred and feedback and comments from our peers. In fact, I have noticed that people who care about doing better go out of their way to seek advice, comments and criticisms and feedback, and continue to improve and improve and improve.
This feedback process is what I was referring to earlier.
But more later.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 08-Feb-02 04:54 AM
I wrote:
*****************
And so, other side of the equation is to say something like: OK, this is jhoor and khattam for this, this and this reason, BUT HERE IS ONE WAY WE (you and I) COULD MAKE THIS BETTER . . . and you then give your reasons, suggestions
and evidence in an open, honest, peer-to-peer way.
***************
I said that because at the end of the day you really/fervently and passionately care about the work of other person, and want him or her to do better, to succeed, and all that.
You really do.
Often, in Nepal, to help your friends/peers/students succeed really well, you
have to go through this widely MISUNDERSTOOD process,
This process of having to sort of ask blunt questions, destroy the fluffiness, the expectation of inevitable praises before you can roll your sleeves and get to
work with them very closely to nurture, revise and REBUILD their work so that they go on to do even better things. This requires a lot of confidence and trust
on the part of the both parties -- that they are engaging in this for some greater
good out there . . , and not for some ego ko reasons.
Admittedly, this sort of approach is NOT for everybody.
Coming back to literature ko issue, I think the whole literature ko issues have become too dry, uninspiring, dutiful and boring -- eliciting the predictably safe praises.
Literature and literary issues need NOT be that dry, uninspiring, dutiful and
boring. These issues could be made lively and intellectually fun. And one way to do that would be:
a) NOT by certifying them a priori as literature per se,
b) BUT by subjecting them to comments. feedbacks and criticisms from one's peers
and unknown readers, and see what people have to say (whether you agree with them ornot!), and then going back to revise the works and making them better and better.
Such a process, I would argue, would make works of Nepali literature less mysterious, more lively, more relevant and more accessible to us non-literary types -- while considerably increasing the overall quality of our works.
Perhaps, San, instead of hanging on with this self-consciously stuffy 'literature' section, we could start a "Writer's Workshop" usergroup where one's essays, thoughts, poems and so on could be posted for others to critically comment on.
Later on, these revised/polished/finished products could be sent to real literary journals for publication.
What do you guys say?
oohi
caring enough about Nepali literature to not let it have easy, sloppy 'standards'
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| sally |
Posted
on 08-Feb-02 09:39 AM
Ashu, methinks you protesteth too much about being a non-literary person! Your Web postings, and other stuff I've read by you, are terrific editorial journalism. You could make quite a career for yourself as a writer if you chose, and even if that's not the direction of your interests, I do hope you use your writing skills in some way. Books, articles, whatever. Keep it up!
I can't say much, except secondhand, about quality in Nepali literature. I agree that most of what's written in English is pretty awful, but I disagree about that being a problem, simply cuz I don't think many Nepalis have pretensions about writing Literature with a capital L in English. If they do, wouldn't they benefit more from working with native speakers than other people who face the same language difficulties? I'm afraid a "workshop" page would end up being a grammar correction page, cuz that's the level most people are at. Calling it "self expression" might be better than "literature."
That said, I actually value the way that Nepal seems to produce so many people who are unafraid of trying their hand at writing and poetry. I'm reminded of the way that every 19th century housewife used to be a poet, and every person with a porch and a fiddle used to be a musician. What they wrote and fiddled might have been awful by some higher standards, but the level of engagement seems so wonderful in retrospect. We in the West have professionalized these things so much now that the average Jennifer and Jason are afraid to pick up pens and musical instruments because they're not "good enough" to meet the high standards of "real" writers and musicians.
Of course, that same 19th century world that was so open to the poetic musings of doggerel-writing housewives and factory workers also included serious criticism and serious writing of a very high level. So I totally support, in my admittedly ignorant way, any efforts to improve the standards of discussion around literature in Nepal.
But at the same time, I think there's something really wonderful about the current openness to self-expression, and I do think it does deserve some kind of appreciation instead of blanket condemnation. I just wanted to point that out, for what it's worth, from my own possibly rosy-glasses viewpoint.
|
| Trip |
Posted
on 08-Feb-02 10:34 AM
As a regular contributor to Suskera, I do wish that they had a place/mechanism through which authors could get constructive feedback from readers and although I generally agree with where Ashu is heading with this I am not comfortable with this.
"When you do that, to the rest of us -- non-literary types who love "good" literature -- it usually means that your work is somehow beyond criticism
because whether it is or not someone has already decided that it IS indeed a
piece of "literature". "
Is it really the case that, good literature IF AND ONLY IF it is beyond literary criticism?
|
| who me??? |
Posted
on 08-Feb-02 10:45 AM
Good Point Trip.
|
| NK |
Posted
on 08-Feb-02 03:04 PM
Felt like had to say something. No, nobody is pointing a gun at me. What I really wanted to talk about was Enron. Oh well, just another day, just another opportunity cost.
Why make a such a big deal out of allocating a separate/exclusive space for Literature (yes, lit with capital L)? So what if a reader finds stuff under that “L”iterature, to borrow ashu’s words, jhoor, khattam and raddi (my own word)? Would it have made any difference if these pieces of literature were under ‘Non-Literature but Rather Self-Expression, Oh Fudge It! Just Call it Writer’s Workshop?” Bear in mind I am not going into that road of dissecting which piece is great and which is not. So, what difference does it make? It is a free forum - read electronic. Anybody with two cents of brain can and is allowed to throw their opinion. Just Do It! Nobody is stopping anybody to cut and paste and dissect. So what’s stopping you?
I send my stuff to a few electronic (nepali run) sites. To me Suskera serves one purpose, Chakrapath another and Sajha yet another. I resist sending my writing to paper medium even the editor is kind enough to ask me sometimes. One reason: Too little time. Two: I am lazy. Three: I have little patience (which is connected to the second reason) Third: Afraid of paper . I think once you send them and if it get published then I have no way of proof reading and send my yet another version. So what is the reason I send one to Suskera and not to GBNC or any other combination (to GBNC not to Suskera; both to Susera and GBNC and not to Chakrapath etc etc..)? Just because I send my poems to a lit. e-zine it does not mean I view my poems as holier-than-thou/the greatest literary piece ever and so on. It is very simple, because it is there. And, I would like to see these magazines not die out of writer’s disinterest. I post news views sometimes poems and sometimes even a playful play in this board because one cannot deny the lure of instant gratification. You write and it is there for you to look at (and sometimes maybe get embarrassed) and for others to comment/read/induce hives/make fun of. It is informal and you can make it as formal as you want. I can make mistake (mostly grammatical) and it is still read.
I like to give my patronage (ahem, ahem) when I feel it may make a difference. All these boards, e-zines serve a purpose. One is not and should not cancel each other out. So even San tomorrow has a big banner declaring, “The Greatest Work on Nepali Literature, Contribute to Sajha” , I would not hesitate to send my poems etc. and I will do so without being self-conscious. Fire Away! Critique! Condemn! It is all yours, my dear readers.
|
| Nepe |
Posted
on 08-Feb-02 05:10 PM
This time I am with Ashu. I agree with most of his views. In fact his views have eased a lot of discomfort I had been carrying with me about my poor digestion of literary stuff, even those from Ghagadan sahityakars. Another comfort comes from Torilahureji who appears sharing the same discomfort.
Ashu wrote-
>let's face it, (amateur and ecen professional) literary
>efforts by us Nepalis -- whether in Nepal or outside,
>whether in Nepali or English language -- are, with a
>few refreshing exceptions, really jhoor, khattam and
>hopelessly bad.
I do not read literary stuff at a regular basis. And I easily lose patience if the stuff is ‘hard to understand’ or if I feel the writer is ‘Jibro chapaera kura gariraheko chha’. Despite my too limited affair with Nepali literature, my guts says Ashu may be just right. In Nepali literarary world, where MBB Shah, Chandani Shah and lately G Shah are literary icons, how do you expect to have a high and rigorous standard that can be acquired only from honest-to-God, blunt, no-holds-barred visceral evaluation of literary work ?
I like Ashu’s words-
>I sense that most people do not want to say such things
>out aloud for fear of offending our very vulnerable writers,
>poets and other self-declared literary types. But, come on,
>how long are we to hide this veil of silent mediocrity?
….
>With standards so easy, no wonder, then, almost every
>one of us is a kabi and every other person is a writer and
>a definite "sahityik" type -- making it very hard for us
>non-literary types to discriminate between really good
>writers/poets and their jhoor/bad/hopeless colleagues.
….
>And how do we hold them to to higher, rigorous standards?
>Well, by NOT giving a free pass to them to have an exclusive,
>pre-certified-as-work-of-literature type of forum,
….
>You know, at times, it's so easy to get so much praise -- at
l>least in public -- in Nepal and among Nepalis that after a
>while you feel like shaking off the cobweb of easy victories
>and of relaxed mediocrity, and you really look for for
>honest-to-God, blunt, no-holds-barred visceral evaluation
>of your work.
If Ashu’s solicitation is of any value, I am safely assuming I ain’t offend nobody when say I find most of the poetry (from Nepali and Bideshi kabi/kabayatri) I read either jhoor or lifeless like a cold heavy rock. I just don’t get them.
After reading a number of modern poetry from all class of littérateur, I have come to the following paranoiac conclusion-
When you want to say something, but you don’t have clear idea, then you write poetry.
Of course I am not talking about Bhoopi Sherachan, Haribhakta Katuwal and a handful of others.
More later…
Nepe
|
| _BP |
Posted
on 08-Feb-02 06:30 PM
Well, I understand what Ashu said to mean that a lot of "literature" is nothing but a con job. Some people write jhoor-khattam things and hope it means something to someone. When someone can assign meaning to someone else's aimless meanderings, who is the real poet? Real literature to me is when the words are simple, but the thoughts are profound. Profound words that hide simple thoughts are often mistaken as literature and poetry. The same can be said of bad grammar and poor sentence structure.
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 09-Feb-02 11:10 AM
Sally,
I like your phrase "self-expression" better than my "writer's workshop", which could, I agree, well end up as nothing more than 'grammar correction' efforts.
Yes, if people want to express themselves through poems, stories, essays, then, that's fine, and, if so, perhaps they should just call their creations "self expression" and leave it at that.
My concern was that more and more I was seeing, much to my quiet distress,
that the word "sahitya" was becoming, among us Nepalis, some sort of a
cover-all dress to puff up one's creations (and often jhoor, khattam and bad ones at that!). I was amazed that with the easily acquired rubber-stamp of "literature" (yes, with palpably capital L), one could get away with all sorts of writings . . .
Anyway, I just wanted to question this practice (knowing well that doing so would make some people quite uncomfortable).
As for my own writing efforts, I know I have miles and miles and miles to go
before I am satisfied with my writings. And so, this constant struggle to get
better and better goes on and on.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| verite |
Posted
on 09-Feb-02 01:23 PM
Hey! people people
I think ashu ji simply seems to be saying CHANGE THE NAME OF THE CURRENT "LITERARY" SECTION in his cloud of words. The guy's not happy with it and i see the big deal he's trying to make. So pls, change it for him! Call it the neophyte literary section or the literary test section! Its still going to be the same damn thing...
|
| arnico |
Posted
on 09-Feb-02 11:40 PM
Ashu,
I don't see what the big problem is with having a box calling for people to submit art work... San changes the web site around often, and if he sees a fall-off in the amount of fiction and poetry being submitted, then let him call for people to submit more.
What makes writing into Literature? It is what readers and reviewers think. The very nature of submitting it to the website puts it out in the open for people to read, review, shred... and over time helps improve the overall quality of work produced by a particular individual, according to the definitions set by the readers (and perhaps the writer as well). Literature is self expression that is appreciated (and understood) by others. Its quality is determined subjectively... yet is also very obvious, as it is judged by its ability to communicate.
If enough English language literature gets posted, then perhaps the call and the emphasis can get shifted to something else.
I think it would be great for the site to have a standard Nepali font that we could all download, and then use for writing things in Nepali to post on the board. For some of us abroad, it would be great fun and great language practice to try to read and write more Nepali poetry or stories.
Some day it we may want to put out a call for other types of art work to be submitted... for example photographs... I don't know who else in our community shares my passion for photography...
Arnico.
|
| Nepe |
Posted
on 09-Feb-02 11:53 PM
Let’s face the fact. In Kurakani section, often, a jhoor posting gets incredible number of responses, some of which are expectedly joor. However, no less than often, you get incredibly entertaining, serious, rich and enlightening responses too. I am giving you my testimony, and I am certain anybody participating in this forum will do the same, that I have learned a great deal about things (and about myself) through debate/discussion that goes on in this forum.
On the other hand, the literary section, where items are, relatively, of good standard, and some are indisputably great, sees hardly any discussion. It appears that they go unnoticed, unread, untouched, undigested, uncared and unloved. The literary section looks like an iron curtained stagnant and dead nation. Does it deserve such a fate ?
Ashu is making a big deal about it. But it became a big deal for me too. Let me tell you why (and please please don’t laugh, all right ?). You know, after years of being tired of reading others poetry and becoming exhaustingly dissatisfied, I finally composed a poem (lets say the poem, the only one of my entire life’s produce, the concentrate of my sweat, tears and blood, the essence of me) and e-blished in Suskera. You can easily imagine how much athirst I should have been to hear a comment, a word, even a gesture of notice would be okay, about it. Holding my breath, heart and mouse, I waited and waited and waited, days, weeks and month. To my greatest disappointment, despair and anguish, nothing came. Nothing came (I am starting to sob :-( ). God, where is everybody ? Are they all dead ? I started to curse my love to Suskera. I started to question my wit for not being able to see the shining gate of Kurakani in front of my very eyes, where Raja dehi ranka samma are treated equal and answered equal. Why did it not occur to me that the place for my only poem was Kurakani, not Suskera ?
Suskera turned me into a long suskera. And my beloved poem is sleeping a deep sleep in there. Foolish me !
Nepe
|
| arnico |
Posted
on 10-Feb-02 12:12 AM
Nepe... why don't you post the poem right here? The thread is getting the attention now...
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 10-Feb-02 02:27 PM
I think I was one of those persons who called for 'Literature section' here. I am
thankful to San for creating the section, and I think given enough time, 'literature'
will get more responses.
First , to answer the question, why literature with big letter 'L'? It is a ludicrous
question in my view. I mean who says 'Literature' should mean immortal work of
(potentially) great people? And who are we to judge that conclusively? Let's face
it, just like we say 'movie' to all movies from 'Amelie' to 'American PieII', we can say
literature to "The body of written works of a language, period, or culture." (www.dictionary.com) Just as you can say 'good movie' 'bad movie', you can say
good literature/bad literature. I mean, how many of the books published by big
recognized publishing houses of US will fit in the grand 'L' ? How many of our
'readers of literature' can name (have read) ten good books of literature published
in 2001 out of all books published?
The same reason applies to this discussion section also. Not all discussions here
are great. That doesn't mean we no longer call it discussion but 'mero dui shabda'
or something like that.Yes, there can be good literature, bad literature, good[
discussion, bad discussion etc etc. Just because a guy doesn't like works in
literature doesn't mean it should no longer be called literature.
Yes, literature is difficult to create. There are very few Nepali readers/writers.
Among nepali writers, I rarely see any one who is literature/English major. We 'do
literature' because we want to use our creativity to the extent we can. We don't
claim that we will be great writer or we are great writer. But there are some
potential talents. Nobody can deny this just because he thinks literature with
big 'L' is not fulfilling his puritan, Talibanistic demand of literature.You don't think it
is up to your so called standard, ignore it. Don't preach about changing its whole
name.This is so much similar to the communist tactics of Nepal. Ask a communist
in Nepal, he would say all other 'communist parties' in Nepal are not communist,
because 'they no longer fulfill the requirement of being communist'. It is sad that
literature has to suffer from lack of tolerance, and broad vision of so called 'critics'
(follower of literature).
If people think that they can create a swamp of lotuses after drying up the muds
around lotus, then they are mistaken greatly.Muds are the fact around lotus. When you talk about literature, be prepared to sift bad literatures from the mass
of literary works.
About Suskera, I read Suskera regularly. I think some poems there are great.
Anyone who reads Suskera regulary can clearly see that its standard is rising
gradually.I once wrote my comments to Suskera, and suggested the editor
(Sohamji) to have a regular column for readers. After reading some works, I send
my feedback to those whom I know.I have no pretension about my feedback too,
but I send them anyway. We need to create some kinds of egroup among like
minded people if we are serious about getting feedback. I get letters about some
of my stories e-published. But I have no pretentions about my works.(I agree
with Ashu's comment that my fictions are inferior .)So, Nepeji, I am sorry
that your poem which probably a lot of people read didn't get any feedback
because of lack of the literary venue where such comments could be sent.But
that is not the end.
So, my suggestion, rather than resorting to generalization and smugness,and
rather than raising hohallaa about the big 'L', people provide creative comment to
the writers.The starter of this thread, esp, rarely gave any feedback to any
literary magazine of Nepal or by Nepali, as long as I remember.( I may be wrong).
It is like a communists protesting in Kathmandu,(They say government in Nepal
is not doing any development, and then vandalize telephone booth, railings of
roads etc). Rather than making such a huge generalisation, and asking to change
the name of 'literature'(not a small change, I think), the writer could have helped
people who 'do literature' by providing some good feedback on some specific
works.
As an semi-atheist, the following has long been my motto.
--
God, save me from your followers.
---
|
| Trip |
Posted
on 10-Feb-02 05:26 PM
Great points from everyone.
Looks like everyone here frequents Suskera quite often. Why not use this discussion to apprise the Suskera guys of the need or a popular demand for an active feedback platform where works can be critiqed. Also, I was wondering whether Suskera actually publishes ALL the entries it receives or is there a selection of any sort? You know, threshold requirements/standard minimums?
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| NK |
Posted
on 11-Feb-02 08:43 AM
Hello Suskera! Say something. Your silence is deafening. I would like to know what y'all have been thinking.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 11-Feb-02 10:13 AM
Biswo wrote:
As an semi-atheist, the following has long been my motto.
--
God, save me from your followers.
********************************
What do you guys think of this poem (see below)?
Only your honest opinions please.
oohi
ashu
****************
You ask me how to pray to someone who is not.
All I know is that prayer constructs a velvet bridge
And walking it we are aloft, as on a springboard,
Above landscapes the color of ripe gold
Transformed by a magic stopping of the sun.
That bridge leads to the shore of Reversal
Where everything is just the opposite and the word is
Unveils a meaning we hardly envisioned.
Notice: I say we; there, every one, separately,
Feels compassion for those tangled in the flesh
And knows that if there is no others shore
We will walk that aerial bridge all the same.
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| Mahesh |
Posted
on 11-Feb-02 11:45 AM
If we look at the longest threads in the history of this site. They are not literary ones. Yes good articles are important, but that's not all there is to this site. People keep suggesting all these changes.. to who's benefit ? Each individual thinks his or her idea is better than the others. All of you are like ..Unflushable. y're all messing up other people's zones. Let the man do his jobi job.
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| sally |
Posted
on 11-Feb-02 01:44 PM
Ashu, I think it's a neat poem. The writer probably deserves a Nobel prize in literature ;-)
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| lwage |
Posted
on 11-Feb-02 02:25 PM
suskera looks pretty cool... i also found other one interesting.. www.paradesh.com
is that a new one???... well it does matter wether it is suskera or paradesh.. we need to promote Nepali literature both at home and abroad.. cool discussion
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| _BP |
Posted
on 11-Feb-02 02:27 PM
Ashu, none of the lines rhyme.
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| NK |
Posted
on 11-Feb-02 02:59 PM
Since you have asked for an honest opinion I am giving you one. Mind you, you did not ask for an expert opinion :)(I don't think it was that funny so, just one smiley face)
First of all why make it so dense? If you want to say something about the other world : god, prayer, the pros of believing, which I suspect you are trying to say, then why make it so difficult to understand?
I think there are too many words that you could have live without.. For instance this line, “ feels compassion for those tangled in the flesh” “Where everything is just the opposite and the word is, unveils a meaning….”
A poetry needs to give a rhythm, a flow, in my opinion. Then it is fun to read. Then, it becomes a good poem. This can be done I think by choosing words carefully. Be mindful of what word where to put. This is where a poem becomes a poem. One does not have that pressure, say when one is writing a story.
I was listening to poetry talk in Here and Now in NPR. They were saying if you say it is a poem then it is a poem. It can be long, short, medium, rambling even a story! But what they also said was it has to be concise, poignant. Good or bad, it is up to the readers to decide. Not a foolish mass, but an educated one!
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| Suskera |
Posted
on 11-Feb-02 04:03 PM
Trip wrote:
>As a regular contributor to Suskera, I do wish that they had a
>place/mechanism through which authors could get constructive feedback from
>readers.
We had been thinking about this for a while. However, due to resource
constraints (mostly time, besides other things) we have been unable to start
an interactive discussion board. However, we do have a mechanism through
which authors can get constructive feedback from readers. We have a feedback
link at the end of each article through which readers can email us their
feedback. Once received, we shall post those comments/feedback/criticisms on
our comments/discussions area. The only problem is, we have hardly received
any comments or feedbacks from the readers. The few comments we have received,those have been forwarded to the authors. So we request those of you whofrequent suskera.com to send us your comments/suggestions so we can get this feedback thing going. If you think a certain piece is really really bad, let
the author know and tell them what they can do to improve their writing ( or whether they should give up altogether!)
We hope for now, this will serve the purpose of providing constructive feedback until we are able to develop a more interactive
mechanism.
Nepe wrote :
>and e-blished in Suskera... nothing came. Nothing came (I am starting to sob
>:-( ). God, where is everybody? Are they all dead?
We totally understand your anguish. We do not know your real identity, so
cannot comment on your poem at this moment. Maybe you can drop us a line?
Trip wrote:
>Also, I was wondering whether Suskera actually publishes ALL the entries it
>receives or is there a selection of any sort? You know, threshold
>requirements/standard minimums?
We do not publish all the entries we receive. We use our best judgment to
determine if they meet suskera standard (although it can be very liberal at times).
Thanks for all the support. If you have any other comments/suggestions, please write to us.
Thanks to Sajha.com for providing us with this forum.
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| Trip |
Posted
on 11-Feb-02 04:42 PM
Thanks to Suskera for clarifying matters.
And I also want to thank Ashu for knowingly/unknowingly helping me prove a point I have been trying to make by posting that poem and fishing for comments. Although not many people have responded to it yet, I want to draw your attention to the fact that Ashu has witheld the name of the poet. Why is THAT important? You might think.
It is important. If that poem was under the name of any ordinary Harry or Sally(and if they were NEPALI Harry and Sally) it would surely have received heavy flak for its abstrusity(and other ills) from almost every reader with a little taste for poetry and a belief that he/she could have done a better job. However, if Ashu were to disclose the name of the author and it were to turn out that the poet was no other than Emily Dickinson or Sir Walter Scott, the same critics would bite their tongues. This might not be true for those proven to or used to seeing themselves in the same league as the two greats I've mentioned but for the rest of us hoi polloi?
Does anyone see what I am saying?
Thank you.
Elaborate for me please. I am a little pressed for time here.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 11-Feb-02 08:16 PM
NK,
Thank you for your honest opinions on that poem.
Whether your opinions are right or wrong, that's NOT important now.
For now, what may be important for us is that we NOT hand out free passes to "literature" but BEGIN the process of starting to TALK about so-called literary
efforts in an open, honest, let's-learn-more-about-this kind of way.
And so, my whole point (which some of you have missed) was this: Let us LOOK FOR ways to subject all our verbal creations (literature, to some of us) to back and forth comments from our readers, peers, critics and so on.
Sure, as I wrote earlier, we may still disagree with others' opinions, and that's fine. But the very process of back-and-forth discussions (like in other topics in this kurakani section) can be very STIMULATING, can be very informational, and can be very inspiring for us all to appreciate works of literature all the more, and not less. I mean, certainly that's how I learnt to appreciate great writings!!
Else, my complaint stands as it is: Without the benefit of back-and-forth discussions, our verbal creations will just sit there -- passive and life-less like fossils, offering us no insight, no joy, no stimulation and even no interest.
When that happens, is it any wonder that, as San writes, we would not get "anywhere close to any substancial posting in the literature section since Nov 2001"?
Sally, hats off to you.
That poem called "on prayer" is by Chezlaw Milosz, a Polish-American Nobel Prize
winner.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| ashu |
Posted
on 11-Feb-02 08:33 PM
Sorry, my mistake: The correct spelling is Czeslaw Milosz. Can't never get these Russian/Polish spellings right :-)
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| NK |
Posted
on 11-Feb-02 09:06 PM
ok, how many people liked it? is it the translation or is it only me? I had to read it 10 times before I understood (!) what it was trying to say. I would like to know what other people thought.
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| _BP |
Posted
on 11-Feb-02 09:35 PM
Why treat people who win Nobel prizes for literature differently?
Now if she made those lines rhyme, then I would be really impressed.
:)
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| ashu |
Posted
on 11-Feb-02 11:07 PM
NK wrote:
Ok, how many people liked it? is it the translation or is it only me? I had to read it 10 times before I understood (!) what it was trying to say. I would like to know what other people thought.
***************
Yes, that's the attitude I was/am trying to push for.
It doesn't matter whether we are reading a poem by a beginner or by a Nobel Prize winner or by whoever else. We can, as readers and critics, challenge/question all of them all the time in an effort to better our
understanding of what makes great writings great. [Please refer to the short thread that went on here recently re: Samrat's and Manjushree's books -- that would be my idea of a lit-discussion].
And so, this process of relentless inquiry, of asking questions, of sharing opinions, of holding back-and-forth conversations, and of giving and receiving feedbacks
applies to all, and doing this would be one way to make more sense of written
works.
Coming back to Nepali literature, my gripe is that we emphasize too much on writing and immediately treating that writing as some works of literature than
on assessing/challenging/questioning/commenting on those works.
Pujan et al say that suskera.com hasn't had much luck attracting those who can give feedbacks. Fair enough.
Since I care about this issue, I am going to take this initiative: Starting March 2002 until October 2002, I -- someone who enjoys non-fiction -- would be more than happy to help out Pujan et al to edit/make comments on and give feedbacks to any ONE work of non-fiction PER MONTH prior to that piece ko publication in suskera.com
This would be my little contribution to assist -- for a length of committed time -- Nepali essay-writers, book-review writers and so on get some feedback. The
writer(s) will be free to agree or disagree with my prior-to-publication feedbacks.
Let's NOT get carried away with this literature bandwagon.
Let's first discover more about the writing process so that the process becomes
all the more exciting.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 14-Feb-02 05:25 PM
-------------------------------------------------------
On Prayer
Czeslaw Milosz
You ask me how to pray to someone who is not.
All I know is that prayer constructs a velvet bridge
And walking it we are aloft, as on a springboard,
Above landscapes the color of ripe gold
Transformed by a magic stopping of the sun.
That bridge leads to the shore of Reversal
Where everything is just the opposite and the word is
Unveils a meaning we hardly envisioned.
Notice: I say we; there, every one, separately,
Feels compassion for those tangled in the flesh
And knows that if there is no others shore
We will walk that aerial bridge all the same.
-------------------------------------------------------
What happened ? After so much halla-khalla and enthusiastic debate,
nobody (except NK) is giving a damn to this poem picked by Ashu to make a point. Once you learned it comes from a Nobel laureate, it became untouchable to you, didn’t it ? Ashu was right about you !
Call me a fool, I am going to give my layman mantabya, dui shabda ma.
All right. Like NK, I too feel this poem is dense and lacks rhythm. What distinguishes a poem from a non-poem is certainly the rhythm, flow and music in the former. Also, I am not sure if I grasped the poem fully. What troubled me is not that I did not grasp, but that I am not sure if I did.
> You ask me how to pray to someone who is not.
Who is someone who is not ? God ? God can not be one who is ‘not’. If he meant indeed God, then is it like a Hindu philosophy defining God as ‘not this one, neither that one’ ? If that is the case, Wow !
>All I know is that prayer constructs a velvet bridge
I liked it. Specially because he said a bridge instead of a ladder. People usually look UP for God and imagine a ladder or a rope to reach to him (difficult !). But here Czesla sees a bridge that reach to the other shore.
>And walking it we are aloft, as on a springboard,
I guess so.
>Above landscapes the color of ripe gold
>Transformed by a magic stopping of the sun.
I am not sure what these lines mean. Also not sure if it makes any difference they are removed.
>That bridge leads to the shore of Reversal
>Where everything is just the opposite and the word is
>Unveils a meaning we hardly envisioned.
Do I see a punctuation mistake here ? Is it okay if I put it in the following way ?
>That bridge leads to the shore of Reversal
>Where everything is just the opposite and
>The word unveils a meaning we hardly envisioned.
This part is great because it is shocking to those who pray. It sounds a mysterious place. But it is wonderful that poet knows the rule of this place.
>Notice: I say we
Very honest.
> …….there, every one, separately,
>Feels compassion for those tangled in the flesh
‘those tangled in the flesh’, meaning we mortals ? Another law of that place- everybody feels compassion for living man and woman on this shore.
> And knows that if there is no others shore
>We will walk that aerial bridge all the same.
It’s a puzzle to me. If there is no other shore (where you find a new revealation, knowledge), why need to pray (walk that velvet, aerial bridge) ? Does he mean people will pray even if there is no outcome ?
I would rather put these line this way-
And knows that if there is no velvet bridge
We will swim to the other shore all the same
Something like what Gita says. You have many ways to reach to the other shore- swim, walk, fly or just know there is no way or invent a path yourself or create an illusion and believe it.
That’s all for now.
Nepe
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