| Username |
Post |
| ashu |
Posted
on 29-Dec-00 11:04 AM
I am amused by Biswo's points about Kumari.
Each Kumari comes from Kathmandu's Baadaa
(Shakya, goldsmith, Newar) group.
The Baadaa group is under NO legal force
to maintain the tradition of Kumari. That
the group continues with the tradition of
Kumari is vital for the upkeep of its
own community.
Anyone who has any passing familiarity with
the Baadaa group (as I do, since I grew up around
them near Ranjana Cinema Hall in Phasi Keb near New
Road)knows that the Baadaas are prosperous,
socially conservative and also fairly
well-educated, well-travelled even among
the Newars.
That is why, let us all trust that the
members of the Baadaa group are quite capable
of deciding what they want (for their Kumaris
and ex-Kumaris) without their being portrayed
as barbarians engaged in some primitive,
misogynistic practice.
oohi
ashu
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 29-Dec-00 02:30 PM
Ashu:
Thanks for your information.
However, the point is not where they come from, what their family
members are doing.I am repeatedly asking what Kumari themselves
are doing and what is provided for them, what is their current
education and social status.
Since I know less about them personally, and there was a magazine
controversy about the present status of Kumari that raised
scathing comment about the status, I thought it appropriate to
raise some question about them.
What I think is, even girls from the 'high class'(sic) are also
tormented, if they are not given freedom to choose what they
want to choose.
I don't have any prejudice against the system itself, I just
wondered if the system is worth reviewing.That's all my point.
I hope it is clear to you now.
Biswo
|
| shrestha |
Posted
on 30-Dec-00 12:30 AM
>I am amused by Biswo's points about Kumari.
>
>Each Kumari comes from Kathmandu's Baadaa
>(Shakya, goldsmith, Newar) group.
>
>The Baadaa group is under NO legal force
>to maintain the tradition of Kumari. That
>the group continues with the tradition of
>Kumari is vital for the upkeep of its
>own community.
>
>Anyone who has any passing familiarity with
>the Baadaa group (as I do, since I grew up
>around
>them near Ranjana Cinema Hall in Phasi Keb
>near New
>Road)knows that the Baadaas are prosperous,
>socially conservative and also fairly
>well-educated, well-travelled even among
>the Newars.
I don't think the well-educated parents well understand what goes through the minds of the especially ex-Kumari, once they grow up and spend rest of life as a celibacy. Is she to suffer (I mean to supress her biological needs) because of the decision of her parents or Baddas made, at her very tender age.
The social restrictions of a ex-Kumari are so many that make literally impossible to lead her life as a normal women.
Is she justified? Did she opt for those?
>That is why, let us all trust that the
>members of the Baadaa group are quite
>capable
>of deciding what they want (for their
>Kumaris
>and ex-Kumaris) without their being
>portrayed
>as barbarians engaged in some primitive,
>misogynistic practice.
No doubt the parents and relatives of a reigning and Ex-Kumari earn some respect because of their daughters’ status as "living Goddess" from whom even the King receives Tika once a year. Probably they love that status more than the future of the little living goddess who might later develop human instinct and attitudes.
I am not against this unique tradition of Kumari. Rather I respect and fear her since I heard that Late King Mahendra died on the same year (2028) when the Kumari did not offer him any Tika during Dashain. I am convinced she possesses some extra power but don’t know the science behind my belief. If capable Baddas choose to decide the fate of a young girl (- living Goddess), whose primary teeth will shed and begin to menstruate someday as like any normal women, that’s up to them, but like Biswo said it needs some review.
The story (late filmed)“Kumari” written by Bijaya Malla is worth remembering here in which he has tried to analyze the social and psychological aspect of an Ex-Kumari.
My two cents.
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 30-Dec-00 05:19 AM
Shrestha wrote:
>I don't think the well-educated parents well
>understand what goes through the minds of
>the especially ex-Kumari, once they grow up
>and spend rest of life as a celibacy.
Welcome Shrestha to this discussion thread.
Your writing and you sense of humor do
look appreciably familiar, but let's get
to the issue at hand.
It used to be that people feared to marry
off ex-Kumaris. That is not the case any
more. Conservative though the Baadaas are,
ex-kumaris these days ARE allowed more
freedom (in terms of movement, education,
job opportunities and so on) than their
predecessors ever received.
So, the issue of ex-Kumaris as a celibate
forever needs to be changed in light
of the present social realities. The Kumari
tradition, let us all remember, is NOT
entirely frozen in time and space.
>Is she
>to suffer (I mean to supress her biological
>needs) because of the decision of her
>parents or Baddas made, at her very tender
>age.
Well, to give you one small example,
many well-educated, globe-trotting Newar
parents also practice, what are, by all accounts,
scary rites of, "goofaa basnay" for their
daughters.
Yet, we see many graduates of such "goofaa
basnay" rites go on to lead normal, productive
private and public lives. Here too, the parents
make decisions for their daughters, that too
at an impressionable age. So what gives?
If we assume that the parents have the
BEST intentions in their hearts for their
children, then who are we to say, from a
distance, what long-standing cultural rites
they can practice and what they can't?
Look, as it is, child psychology is complicated
stuff. Unlike other commentators who seem so
sure of their opinions, I don't pretend to know
exactly what goes on in the minds of a young
Shakya girl chosen to be the Kumari (or the Living
Goddess) for an x number of years.
But I assume there must be a reason -- if
not of cool logic then that of faith -- for the
Baadaa community to anoint a young girl as
Kumari. After all, their Kumari tradition
was not invented last year!!
And I respect that tradition, even when I
do not fully understand it.
>The social restrictions of a ex-Kumari are
>so many that make literally impossible to
>lead her life as a normal women.
>Is she justified? Did she opt for those?
I rang up Prem Basnet earlier today. Prem Dai,
a strong supporter of our Kathmandu Film Archives,
is also the director of the movie "Kumari".
Prem Dai says that his movie, made more than 20
years ago, made a point that an ex-Kumari
should be allowed to marry.
Even he admitted that the old conservatism
surrounding ex-Kumaris is slowly dissolving
these days, with the Baadaa community -- though
conservative it remains -- steadily working
towards making ex-living goddesses able to lead
their post-Kumari lives comfortably as regular,
normal women.
Sure, the SPEED at which the Kumari-related
reforms is taking place may not be to
everyone's liking, and here we can different
opinions.
But to call for sweeping (macro) reforms without
bothering to understand changed (micro) realities
smacks of unwarranted self-righteous indignantion.
The Baadaa (Shakya) community does deserve
a big credit for what doing it can, in its own
way, to meet -- slowly but surely -- the
challenges of keeping an ancient tradition
compatible with the sensiblities of the
21st-century world.
>No doubt the parents and relatives of a
>reigning and Ex-Kumari earn some respect
>because of their daughters’ status as "
>living Goddess" from whom even the King
>receives Tika once a year. Probably they
>love that status more than the future of the
>little living goddess who might later
>develop human instinct and attitudes.
Look, if you insist on assuming the
worst motivation on the part of the parents,
then I have nothing to say.
I, for one, though not a parent and not a
Newar, would think that it's pretty heart-wrenching
for any parent to give up their young daughter to be
away from them -- physically, socially and
spiritually. [Here, a parallel could be
drawn about Buddhist parents who give up
their sons to be monks at monasteries!]
Finally, like I said, I don't pretend to know
the entire social/cultural/psychological
dynamics surrounding the Kumari tradition.
But I have enough faith and trust in the
Baadaas in that whatever they do, they will do
so for the benefit of the Kumaris and for the
benefit of their own Shakya community, without
anybody else's misjudging/misreading and
misinterpreting their motives.
>I am not against this unique tradition of
>Kumari. Rather I respect and fear her.
Fine.
oohi
ashu
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 30-Dec-00 10:44 PM
>>But to call for sweeping (macro) reforms without
bothering to understand changed (micro) realities
smacks of unwarranted self-righteous indignantion.
I am bemused by your reason/innuendo here, Ashu.
Asking her to send to a school doesn't constitute macro reform
call, I guess. Call for attention should also be considered ok.
If all traditions were worth keeping, then we could still have
sati prathaa, baal biwaaha, and we could never grumble about the
prevalent exclusive right of inheritance to son only.Some
traditions are surely worth reviewing,from time to time, that is
my thought.Remember, sati pratha, baal bibaaha etc were also done
by the parents.
If Kumari is given pension funds from national coffer, then
the matters about her should be public.I'm astonished you consider
her merely Badda community property, and public discussions
about her unwarranted, and those who think good about her merely
self-righteous individuals.
|
| rajendra |
Posted
on 31-Dec-00 12:32 AM
I have to agree with you on this one Biswoji. Kumari is much more than simply a parental/child issue. And yes, like Bal Biwaha, parental sanction does not necessarity legitimise all indiscretions towards children (also read child labor!).
However, we do have to understand that issues of Kumari are unlike those of Bal Biwaha or Sati Pratha or child labor. We may certainly want to "improve" and "modernise" how a Kumari lives her day-to-day life, but the Kumari tradition is one we can be proud of, not be embarrassed; one that needs more elucidation, not eradication. For Kumari is a symbol of innocence, purity, serenity and honor more than anything else!
> I am bemused by your reason/innuendo here,
>Ashu.
>
> Asking her to send to a school doesn't
>constitute macro reform
>call, I guess. Call for attention should
>also be considered ok.
>
> If all traditions were worth keeping, then
>we could still have
>sati prathaa, baal biwaaha, and we could
>never grumble about the
>prevalent exclusive right of inheritance to
>son only.Some
>traditions are surely worth reviewing,from
>time to time, that is
>my thought.Remember, sati pratha, baal
>bibaaha etc were also done
>by the parents.
>
> If Kumari is given pension funds from
>national coffer, then
>the matters about her should be public.I'm
>astonished you consider
>her merely Badda community property, and
>public discussions
>about her unwarranted, and those who think
>good about her merely
>self-righteous individuals.
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 31-Dec-00 12:40 AM
Biswo wrote:
>Some
>traditions are surely worth reviewing,from
>time to time, that is
>my thought.
Biswo, your major point in this debate is so
true, so safe, and so predictable and, ultimately
so boring that it hardly inspires a thought.
What you are saying is like our netas' saying,
"Nepal ko bikas hunu parcha".
Haven't we, as a generation, tired of listening
to such safe, true, predictable and boring
ideas and statments from our rulers and
intellectuals?
I am.
With a grand statment like "a tradition needs
to be reviewed" or that "nepal ko bikas hunu parch",
who the hell is ever going to disagree?
No one.
And without reasoned disagreements, how are we
ever going to examine ideas, challenge beliefs and
generate knowledge?
On a macro level, I, for one, am a little tired of
otherwise very intelligent Nepalis, like yourself,
making a series of safe, predictable, boring and
true-sounding arguments in public with little
or no agreeable or disagreeable analyses.
Surely, you can do better than fling us
with safe, predictable statements especally,
and I repeat, especially AFTER taking the trouble
to understand the flux of changes that the Kumari
tradition itself and the Baadaa community itself
is undergoing in Nepal.
And BTW, the tradition of Kumari is NOT similar
to sati pratha and/or bal-bibah. Like your previous
Nazi examples in another context, let's not
get carried away with extreme examples.
For the sake of argument, however, let me pursue
your logic.
OK.
Agreed that the the tradition of Kumari needs
to be reviewed.
Now who's going to review it?
The government? (which will make a mess of the thing)
The Guthi Sansthan? (ditto)
Biswo Poudel? (?)
Ashutosh Tiwari? (who's incompetent on this matter)
Who?
After examining al the possibilities, isn't it
better to leave the matters in the hands of the
people who know the system the best? That is to
say, the Baadaas?
If so, how do we do that?
And here, I strongly argue: you do the reviewing
by FIRST beginning to PUBLICLY understand and
appreciate the efforts ALREADY made by the Baadaas
either internally or externally,
And then:
using that (micro-level) understanding and
appreciation to establish credibility in their
eyes to urge them continue on with their
(macro-level) reforms.
Sure, doing all this takes time and effort, but
if you are committed to "review" you are
committed.
So, after doing all this, what do you get?
INSTEAD of non-Newars lecturing all about a
tradition from which they are culturally
removed, even when they act -- in what appears
to be self-righteous indignation -- as if they knew
everything, you end up assisting, assuming you care,
the Baadaas be agents of change in their own
cultural traditions.
This result leads us to my earlier conclusion:
Let the Baadaas decide for themselves how they
want to keep up the tradition of Kumari.
So, you see, even your logic supports my
conclusion.
So, yes, the tradition of Kumari needs to be
debated and discussed. That said, let me also say
that we don't need just debates.
We need BETTER debates.
A very Happy New Year to all!!
oohi
ashu
>Remember, sati pratha, baal
>bibaaha etc were also done
>by the parents.
>
> If Kumari is given pension funds from
>national coffer, then
>the matters about her should be public.I'm
>astonished you consider
>her merely Badda community property, and
>public discussions
>about her unwarranted, and those who think
>good about her merely
>self-righteous individuals.
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 31-Dec-00 12:45 AM
Rajendraji:
My comparision was not holistic.I was just saying that all
traditions are not worth keeping.
I really hope that all situation of Kumari is made public and
we start debating what is best for the kid.
To me, it looks like religious ceremonious post, somewhat
analogous to Miss Auburn in Auburn.(!)Miss Auburn has all the
trappings, she goes to the same rostum as the president and
delights crowd, but after one year ,she descends and resumes
her careers.Miss Auburn doesn't have any restriction after
descending.
Kumari is however different in this aspect!!
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 31-Dec-00 01:28 AM
Ashu:
I think we posted the last messages simulatenuously.I think
it is appropriate if I write my points about your posting here
also.
>>Biswo, your major point in this debate is so
true, so safe, and so predictable and, ultimately
so boring that it hardly inspires a thought.
I am glad that you were expecting my comment to inspire a thought.
I never thought it deserved such attention.From the first, my
suggestion was only one: Kumari may be entitled a better
facility(like education etc..) and the system is worth revision.
Making true statement is not bad,Ashu.Of course, my suggestion
was boring, because it wanted a girl's life to be scrutinized,
(because she was public religious figure), and provide
amelioration to her present situation if warranted.This is
commonplace theme, I agree.
>>On a macro level, I, for one, am a little tired of
otherwise very intelligent Nepalis, like yourself,
making a series of safe, predictable, boring and
true-sounding arguments in public with little
or no agreeable or disagreeable analyses.
Come on, Ashu, I don't deserve this adjective of intelligent
Nepalese.Like you, I am also bored with vague,opinionated(but
platitudinuously) and predictable arguments presented by some
of the so called intelligent Nepalese.
>>And BTW, the tradition of Kumari is NOT similar
to sati pratha and/or bal-bibah. Like your previous
Nazi examples in another context, let's not
get carried away with extreme examples.
I was talking about few aspects only.Now,as Rajendra posted in one
of his previous posting, what about analogy with child labor?
I don't like to talk about Nazi so cheaply, but even in my
last posting, I was comparing with Ford-Nazi nexus, not Nazi
themselves.Btw,Bal Biwaaha is still in vogue in some parts of our
country,you know that! Even Kantipur published a report only
probably a week or two ago about that.
& hey,I note your point about extreme examples, and won't like to
give such examples in the future,as I have seen they may not
produce salutory effect in argument.
>>Now who's going to review it?
The government? (which will make a mess of the thing)
The Guthi Sansthan? (ditto)
Biswo Poudel? (?)
Ashutosh Tiwari? (who's incompetent on this matter)
Who?
Looks like you want me to give micro level detail in my every
suggestions.
Apart from the listed four options,there are other options also,
and as you know there are a lot of intelligent Nepalese around in
Nepal who can do the job better than the four options you listed.
Baadaas can be a part of that privileged group,but again, such
kind of debates can be moderated by media and public and expert
opinion can be canvassed before going for conclusion.
>>And here, I strongly argue: you do the reviewing
by FIRST beginning to PUBLICLY understand and
appreciate the efforts ALREADY made by the Baadaas
either internally or externally,
And then:
using that (micro-level) understanding and
appreciation to establish credibility in their
eyes to urge them continue on with their
(macro-level) reforms.
Sure, doing all this takes time and effort, but
if you are committed to "review" you are
committed.
Well, as far as I can see from your argument, your argument can
make a good component of your resume to qualify you to be
empaneled in the proposed debate/review committee.Kudos.
>>INSTEAD of non-Newars lecturing all about a
tradition from which they are culturally
removed, even when they act -- in what appears
to be self-righteous indignation -- as if they knew
everything, you end up assisting, assuming you care,
the Baadaas be agents of change in their own
cultural traditions.
Now please don't write communal words like Non Newaars or Newaars.
Nobody is lecturing anybody, and to make Kumari common and
acceptable for alls, it is our common duty.
>>This result leads us to my earlier conclusion:
Let the Baadaas decide for themselves how they
want to keep up the tradition of Kumari.
Well, I am surprised by the circuitous routes you took to commend
yourselves.By the way, I didn't reach the same conclusion even
following your argument,sir!
>>So, you see, even your logic supports my
conclusion.
So, yes, the tradition of Kumari needs to be
debated and discussed. That said, let me also say
that we don't need just debates.
And what we got finally, the same thing , that it needs to be
discussed that I said before!Your first posting even precluded
any debates, and delegated the carte blanche to the Baadaas.
You posted this:(Let us all trust that the
members of the Baadaa group are quite capable
of deciding what they want (for their Kumaris
and ex-Kumaris) without their being portrayed
as barbarians engaged in some primitive,
misogynistic practice. )
In second,to Shrestha: your posting are even more conservative
in terms of allowing public debates:
>>If we assume that the parents have the
BEST intentions in their hearts for their
children, then who are we to say, from a
distance, what long-standing cultural rites
they can practice and what they can't?
>>But I have enough faith and trust in the
Baadaas in that whatever they do, they will do
so for the benefit of the Kumaris and for the
benefit of their own Shakya community, without
anybody else's misjudging/misreading and
misinterpreting their motives.
And suddenly, in this posting, you not only say that your argument
is the denoument of all others combined, but also you are the one
who want more debates, and not only like mine ,uninspiring ,boring
and predictable, but better!
Come on,Ashu. Come with some better idea before linking every
other suggestions to your one.
I think you are right in asking for better debates, because the
debate here is devoid of substance, but nobody claimed that
either.
Happy New Year to you also.
|
| rajendra |
Posted
on 31-Dec-00 06:14 PM
From the eyes of a third-person here, using words like self-righteous indignation to describe others only reflects one's own indignation. While we were having an amicable discussion on the state of Kumari tradition in Nepal, I don't understand why we have to resort to personal derision to make an argument.
And yes, as Biswoji said, please please let's not bring in communal qualifications here to only make matters worse.
|
| Shrestha |
Posted
on 31-Dec-00 06:49 PM
>Welcome Shrestha to this discussion thread.
Thank You.
>Your writing and you sense of humor do
>look appreciably familiar, but let's get
>to the issue at hand.
Well, the world is so much influenced by others and I am no execption. My friend introduced me to this website and he talks great about your writing. :-)
>It used to be that people feared to marry
>off ex-Kumaris. That is not the case any
>more.
Is there any instance of a Ex-Kumari getting married?
some Kumari's of Patan in Gabahal area are living unlike what you said.
The falacy of dying with getting married to ex-kumari, if eradicated, I would take it as a change. The message that the story and movie "Kamari" (acted by Chitya Devi, Biswo Basnet and Nir Shah) was trying to convey has come into effect after 20 years.
>Conservative though the Baadaas are,
>ex-kumaris these days ARE allowed more
>freedom (in terms of movement, education,
>job opportunities and so on) than their
>predecessors ever received.
The freedom may be more but not enough.
Even the government wants to improve their nutritional status along with housing, education etc. Such ineffective and corrupt government if considers that conditions of Ex-Kumaris are poor and seeks some improvements means they are living in real misarable state, desptie well-off and well travelled Baddas.
>So, the issue of ex-Kumaris as a celibate
>forever needs to be changed in light
>of the present social realities. The Kumari
>tradition, let us all remember, is NOT
>entirely frozen in time and space.
You are right. Like any other traditions, this Unique Kumari tradition is also subjected to change with time and space.
>>Is she
>>to suffer (I mean to supress her biological
>
>needs) because of the decision of her
>>parents or Baddas made, at her very tender
>>age.
>
>Well, to give you one small example,
>many well-educated, globe-trotting Newar
>parents also practice, what are, by all
>accounts,
>scary rites of, "goofaa basnay" for their
>daughters.
>
>Yet, we see many graduates of such "goofaa
>basnay" rites go on to lead normal,
>productive
>private and public lives. Here too, the
>parents
>make decisions for their daughters, that too
>at an impressionable age. So what gives?
"Goofa Basne" is Newari tradition of getting married with Sun, and lasts for twelve days for the pre-menstrual women.
I talked to few women who experienced this ritual and revealed that it is not a scary rite as you have mentioned. Only thing is that they are not supposed to see the sun and are constantly surrounded by friends and get o0ccupied with food and games.
This is just a tempory event compared to the life-long affect of being Kumari.
>If we assume that the parents have the
>BEST intentions in their hearts for their
>children, then who are we to say, from a
>distance, what long-standing cultural rites
>they can practice and what they can't?
Are you trying to say that the parents of a girl child in Sindhupalchowk and Nuwakot who intentionally send their sell or send thier child to India are also right, if they assume its best for them and their kid? Why should anybody interfare with their personal practices?
I admit, the pious tradition of Kumari can not be compared with that kind of "ghatia" example.
>Look, as it is, child psychology is
>complicated
>stuff. Unlike other commentators who seem so
>sure of their opinions, I don't pretend to
>know
>exactly what goes on in the minds of a young
>
Shakya girl chosen to be the Kumari (or
>the Living
>Goddess) for an x number of years.
>
>But I assume there must be a reason -- if
>not of cool logic then that of faith -- for
>the
>Baadaa community to anoint a young girl as
>Kumari. After all, their Kumari tradition
>was not invented last year!!
>
>And I respect that tradition, even when I
>do not fully understand it.
>
>>The social restrictions of a ex-Kumari are
>>so many that make literally impossible to
>>lead her life as a normal women.
>>Is she justified? Did she opt for those?
>
>I rang up Prem Basnet earlier today. Prem
>Dai,
>a strong supporter of our Kathmandu Film
>Archives,
>is also the director of the movie "Kumari".
>
>Prem Dai says that his movie, made more than
>20
>years ago, made a point that an ex-Kumari
>should be allowed to marry.
>
>Even he admitted that the old conservatism
>surrounding ex-Kumaris is slowly dissolving
>these days, with the Baadaa community --
>though
>conservative it remains -- steadily working
>towards making ex-living goddesses able to
>lead
>their post-Kumari lives comfortably as
>regular,
>normal women.
I am happy to hear that.
>Sure, the SPEED at which the Kumari-related
>reforms is taking place may not be to
>everyone's liking, and here we can different
>opinions.
>
>But to call for sweeping (macro) reforms
>without
>bothering to understand changed (micro)
>realities
>smacks of unwarranted self-righteous
>indignantion.
>
>The Baadaa (Shakya) community does deserve
>a big credit for what doing it can, in its
>own
>way, to meet -- slowly but surely -- the
>challenges of keeping an ancient tradition
>compatible with the sensiblities of the
>21st-century world.
>
>>No doubt the parents and relatives of a
>>reigning and Ex-Kumari earn some respect
>>because of their daughters’ status as "
>>living Goddess" from whom even the King
>>receives Tika once a year. Probably they
>>love that status more than the future of
>the
>>little living goddess who might later
>>develop human instinct and attitudes.
>
>Look, if you insist on assuming the
>worst motivation on the part of the parents,
>then I have nothing to say.
>
>I, for one, though not a parent and not a
>Newar, would think that it's pretty heart-
>wrenching
>for any parent to give up their young
>daughter to be
>away from them -- physically, socially and
>spiritually. [Here, a parallel could be
>drawn about Buddhist parents who give up
>their sons to be monks at monasteries!]
>
>Finally, like I said, I don't pretend to
>know
>the entire social/cultural/psychological
>dynamics surrounding the Kumari tradition.
>
>But I have enough faith and trust in the
>Baadaas in that whatever they do, they will
>do
>so for the benefit of the Kumaris and for
>the
>benefit of their own Shakya community,
>without
>anybody else's misjudging/misreading and
>misinterpreting their motives.
I will view the Ex-Kumari as a women, a normal women with human insticts and needs and if the Shakya community AND/or any other community do something to benefit them economically, physically, acdemically and physiologically, thats what we are wishing/seeking for! This is not any misjudgement or misreading.
>>I am not against this unique tradition of
>>Kumari. Rather I respect and fear her.
>
>Fine.
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