| Username |
Post |
| Biswo |
Posted
on 22-Apr-02 10:15 AM
The French election doesn't matter to us, normally.
But being one of the most powerful nations in the earth, France can have
significant impact on us, the way Germany did in 1930s. And the election
yesterday in France shocked everybody. In fact, it is one of the most shocking
political news after the fall of Soviet Union.
Le Pen, a far right politician, made it to top two. In fact, the vote he received in
the first round was around 17%, slightly behind around 19% of president Chirac,
the first place holder. Racism, like in Austria, is returning to France.
Despite its immaculate surface, and beauty and enchanting aura of glittering
fashion and cologne world, France is deeply soiled with stains of racism now. It
needs to address its problems right now, or not only the France, but the world will
regret in future.
And given the rise of racists in Europe ,no wonder Europeans are against Israel
even now.But , rightnow, suffice it to say, fie upon 'em!
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| NK |
Posted
on 22-Apr-02 10:28 AM
Biswo,
I think it is very difficult to be a true liberal and adhere to the principals it demands. It did not surprise me a bit when it was announced this Pen guy came ahead of everybody except Chirac. Not only France, the whole Europe is not quite facist but very conservative. They know it is desirable to be a liberal and politically correct, but when push comes to shove they revert back to their own shell which is conservatism. And yes racism too.
Look at Austria, Even Netherlands. How they blame foreingners for every societal ills. And they even win elections standing on that platform.
Why did the Jews have to die in millions in Europe?
Way to goo France! Show us your true face once for all.
|
| KOKO |
Posted
on 22-Apr-02 01:05 PM
Does it even matter ?
You are talking about probably one of the most descriminating communities in the world. And you want to go and talk about France ?? At least they are accomodating..But Nepal fogitaaabboutit. We wont even give the Tarai Basi's their full rights a citizen, or the Newar's to practice their own language. LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY, Would you like it if more and more Indians migrated to Nepal and took over everything ? Its the same sentiment my freind. France having close ties with so many of its old colonies has a big ethnic population. Its the same like us not getting along with Indians, and with 9/11 they have concerns they need to address. ANd thats probably why all these right wing people are winning elections in the westrn hemisphere. That is why Sharon is in power, that neo nazi won elections in austria. Imigration is a major issue everywhere. The flood of migrants from middle east, South Asia, and southeast Asia is a major problem everywhere.
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 22-Apr-02 06:33 PM
NK:
I had once this experience in Shanghai: we were talking with a group of Chinese
and mainland Europeans. The Europeans were complaining that Americans were
too hegemonists in nature specially when addressing the issues of Chinese
grievances against US (at that time, US had just dropped few bombs in Chinese
embassy in Belgrade). Then I told them, they might be true, but the history
proved that Asians couldn't rely upon them as trueblue friends. In fact, most of the
wars, colonies and hatred of the world traces their origin in Europe. First and
second world wars were also the product of Europe.Quite a few people told me the
horrible story of racism(even against Americans) in Europe even now, and it
sounds like they need to learn alot. I read about this Le Penn guy some years back
in either Newsweek or Time, and thought he would vanish like The Australian
racists who are now totally rejected in Australia, but despite his so called inability
to collect a requisite 600 signatures for nomination, he emerged as a powerful
force in France now! Secretly, it looks, the French populace admired him.
Koko, just because we are afraid of Indian influx doesn't mean racism and the
incendiary remarks of Haider/Le Pen/Duke is right. We can control immigration
and that is our right. But to blame immigrants (who are already in) for everything
is totally wrong. If we practice such practice in Nepal against a particular
group/ethic origin, then we are wrong. We need to rectify ourselves asap.
|
| French girl |
Posted
on 22-Apr-02 07:08 PM
i'm french and i can tell you that i've been really shocked when i learnt these results yesterday. a lot of french people (and almost all the young ones) are against what's happening and there were some demonstrations against le pen during the night after the results were given. le pen wont be elected president but it's scary that he made it to the top two. and you also need to know that some foreigners voted for le pen (!)
i'm not very proud of what's happening right now but racism is everywhere and not only in france. i met a lot of nepalis and most of them are racist too...
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| KOKO |
Posted
on 23-Apr-02 09:42 AM
Biswo,
Haider made some shrewd coments, Yes! but there must be a major population who feels that way, otherwise he woould not have won. Same with the French. It was similar when Nani Maiya Dahal won elections in KTM. People wanted to mock the govt. That's how it happened. I do not feel people are generally stupid to vote for the wrong person. If you look at the 3 major powerhouse continents Australia, Europe and US, they are significantly curbing their immigration policies. And Mr Bin Ladden has made it even worse. Just like we do not want foreigners coming to take everything in Nepal. Back in the colony days Colonials came to occupy and dominate, but these days everything is tied to economy.
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 24-Apr-02 10:52 AM
Koko:
I don't think the racists are making any rational comments. See, last time I was
reading one report about immigration. It was comparing the job creation rate in
USA(which accepts immigrants overwhelmingly) and Europe. In the time frame
it was comparing, US accepted 20 millions immigrants, and job creation was 45
millions. Europe had a pathetic rate. Europe's insular policy, and bigotry has taken
it to nowhere. Blaming immigrants for their woe is easy for them, because
immigrants tend to be the weakest people in the society and thus easy targets.
Now, re the socalled Indians coming to Nepal. Let me give you an example my dad
told me a couple of days ago. A local worker charges about Rs 150.00/day for his
labour in farms in Chitwan. The immigrants would do the same in average of Rs
50.00, and they do it faster (they work in 'thekka', and work for all night to make
money faster).I don't think there is any resentment against them in Chitwan. The
resentment against Indians stems in Nepal mainly because of the attitude of Indian
government, rather than the appropriation of the humblest jobs by the Indian
immigrants.
If the third world people (like Bin Laden) are harming the west, they are harming
the east too. These are exceptions and should be taken as aberrant elements of
society. Anyway, crimes committed against third world countries by first world
people are not insignificant anyway. Last time, I was reading about Uganda's civil
war. De Beers (isn't it a French giant?) bought all the diamonds of Jonas Savimbi,
so that it could control the market, and Savimbi, in turn, was able to wage the most
brutal war of Uganda for decades with that million. Savimbi , everyone knows, has
lost popular support in Uganda, failed to recognize the internationally monitored
election in Uganda because he lost, and went to the war with the money he got
from diamond smuggling. The story of such misconducts by Europeans is long.
To French girl
>'m french and i can tell you that i've been really shocked when i learnt these
>results yesterday.
Naturally. Again French are so good in pretending they are the most liberal people
in the world, the pillar of socialism in Europe!
> a lot of french people (and almost all the young ones) are against what's
>happening and there were some demonstrations against le pen during the night
>after the results were given.
A lot of French people(a whopping 17%) also voted for him. The protests could
have been more effective had it been manifested in ballot paper. I mean, come on,
he got 17% of votes. That is the percentage of people who secretly/overtly
admired him.
>and you also need to know that some foreigners voted for le pen (!)
I don't know about that.I don't know why either!It is news to me also.
>i'm not very proud of what's happening right now but racism is everywhere and
>not only in france.
It seems to me racism is 'most prevalent' in France. The percentage Le Pen
received is the highest in any civilized nation a racist got. Can you imagine David
Duke getting that much vote in USA?
> i met a lot of nepalis and most of them are racist too...
Well, that doesn't justify your nation's embrace of Le Pen. We are , fyi, from
worst to worse situation now, you are from bad to worse situation.
Here is what I have to say, by electing the racists, the French economic woe won't
be solved. Let them isolate themselves from the world, and eat their champagne
themselves, spray their perfume themselves, and sell their arms to themselves.
The socalled Africans/Arabs the Frenchs incorrectly identify as the source of their
woe are the one who made France rich and powerful. France has a dirty record
of propping up dictators and plundering/pillaging the national resources of its
colonies. Le Pen, it needs to be reminded the French Girl, is not only running off
the presidency, with him the whole society is trying to give message that it will
first run off Jews, then run off Arabs, then run off Africans, and then run off
Asians, and probably much more.
|
| Koko |
Posted
on 24-Apr-02 03:48 PM
Biswo,
In the past 2 to 3 years Human traficking have become such a huge problem. If you look @ the news in the past 2 years there has been way tooo many incidents from Australia to US pertaining illegal immigrants. When you see headlines with Tankers full of illigales again and again then lawmakers eyes become bigger. REGARDLESS OF WHERE YOU GO IMMIGRANTS ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE SECOND CLASS CITIZENS. Even in Nepal we treat Indians that way. Those thekka people would not get fair wages like otheR Nepali would. That is still descrimination. But that is the fact and there is no 2 ways about it.
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| French Girl |
Posted
on 24-Apr-02 05:28 PM
Biswo,
i'm not pretending anything. do you mean that i'm racist and happy to see le pen so close to the head of the country, and i'm just 'pretending' to be against him just to look liberal? i dont know what kind of person you are but i'm not like that. there are maybe 30% of the french population that are really pure french. everyone is mixed in france. 34% of people who are between 18-24 years didnt vote. there are some foreigners and homosexuals who voted for him.
there're so many problems in france that you probably ignore and these are the reasons why le pen got so many votes. the main reason is the european thing. le pen is against the european community and against the 'euro' as a currency for all the countries belonging to this community. and there're a lot of people who dont like it either, plus all these old people who are completely lost with this change currency. well, like a lot of other countries, france has lots of problems to deal with. this leads to the point where people dont go and vote because they're tired of these politicians. and one more thing, when you vote, you have to choose between several crappy people. do you always 'admire' the one you vote for? come on, they are politicians. you have to choose the one who is the less worst. this has nothing to do with admiration
and again, biswo, i'm not pretending anything. there are racists in my country. which country doesnt have racism? and i'm 100% sure that le pen wont go further. sunday's results scared everyone, (yes, even these bad french people). if he becomes president, then come and complain about how bad french people are. and i'll join you...
|
| Da Ge |
Posted
on 24-Apr-02 07:29 PM
Current french situation can be similar to the Nani Maiya's election victory during panchayat era. Did the voters really thought they were voting for her ability. Or were they voting for her to show their dissafiction with status quo and there was nobody to challenge it in the field. I am more than convinced it is because of the later.
Le Pen's limited success may be attributed to the frustration of ordinary French people to show their contention against the other options they have had in the election. Lets hope Chirac wins. If he wins, his first task should be to win the trust of those 17% people who voted for Le Pen.
Extremists always shine when a society is going through a tough economical time. Comeon, with their hight taxes and unbelievablely restricting labor laws who would want to invest in France or in Europe. Their economy have been in slump for a while by now. Look at Ireland, because of its lowest tax rate in western Europe and least intrusive government, it is enjoying one of the biggest economic growth in whole Europe. A large electronics company I work for is having hard time finding people to hire in Ireland.
Unless French or any European government shape up do something to revive their once blooming economy and include more people in "mainstream", the extremist will have hayday recruting supporter and we have read what happens when extremist succeed, specially in that part of the world.
|
| croissant |
Posted
on 24-Apr-02 09:11 PM
Everybody knows that France and Belgium are two of the most racist countries in Europe. In France, it's a matter of pride to proclaim oneself a racist.
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| keto |
Posted
on 24-Apr-02 09:18 PM
crossaints are pretty damn good there though. Look on the positive side
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 25-Apr-02 11:09 AM
Da ge:
I wouldn't compare this French situation to that of Nani Maiya Dahal. Nani Maiya
didn't have national following. She was not a rabid racist, and moreover, she was
only 'she', not a 'party' spread over Nepal. Her victory didn't threaten anyone,
but for a couple of low level administrators in Chaarkhaal Addaa. The French
situation is shamefully more dangerous than we see. We are mistakenly
underestimating its gravity by comparing it with Nani Maya phenomenon or
terming it as a spontaneous reaction by disgruntled voters.
My question is this: When Paulin Hanson's racist One Nation won 1998 election in
Queensland, and drew significant votes in Australian election, the Australians
of all walks united to defeat the party, and now it is no where. But Le Pen was
not spontaneous phenomenon in France. It has been there since long, and no one
bothered to defeat it, perhaps because mainstream France started to love his
opinion. France's future reaction to Le Pen will decide its standing among world's
civilized nations.
French Girl
> there are some foreigners and homosexuals who voted for him.
I hope you are not using terms 'foreigners' and 'homosexual' derogatively here!
>there're so many problems in france that you probably ignore and these are the
>reasons why le pen got so many votes.
French Girl,
Tell me a country where problems don't exist. But it is easy to blame 'foreigners'
and 'homosexuals' for country's all problems.(now, including the victory of a right
wing extremist!)
I understand you are distressed by the negative publicity by the victory of Le Pen.
But you need to understand that France never seriously moved to reconcile the
rift between different ethnic groups. This Le Pen phonemenon is the result of
long neglect.
>do you always 'admire' the one you vote for?
I agree with your point. But to tell you truth, I don't vote anyone if I don't like
anyone.I would definitely not vote for a racist.
>there are racists in my country. which country doesnt have racism?
French Girl, again, this argument only justifies having racists in your country. It is
like Palestines saying 'Israel has humiliated us so much that we have no way but
to blow ourselves up!'
Now, let me tell you something about what's wrong with being xenophobic in
France. France, like all other unscrupulous colonial powers, owes the northern
Africans alot. It has not only plundered the civilized cities of North Arab, but
France was the first country to use 'cluster bombs' in 1910s in Morocco against
the large population. What we say against Saddam today was what France did
then. And that's why France owes those Arabs people something. It is some kind
of reparation issue that moral French people need to confront. Rather, they love
to blame these same immigrants for all the scourges of their society which is wrong.
Racism is wrong. And France will go nowhere with its current racist trend. France
has a lot to lose by isolating itself from the rest of the world.
>and i'm 100% sure that le pen wont go further.
I hope so. However, I would like to see that his ideas are defeated decisively.And
that he would get less than 5% vote in this face off. Would be one way to redeem
French reputation!
Koko
>In the past 2 to 3 years Human traficking have become such a huge problem. If
>you look @ the news in the past 2 years there has been way tooo many
>incidents from Australia to US pertaining illegal immigrants. When you see
>headlines with Tankers full of illigales again and again then lawmakers eyes
>become bigger. REGARDLESS OF WHERE YOU GO IMMIGRANTS ARE ALWAYS
>GOING TO BE SECOND CLASS CITIZENS. Even in Nepal we treat Indians that
>way. Those thekka people would not get fair wages like otheR Nepali would.
>That is still descrimination. But that is the fact and there is no 2 ways about it.
I don't think immigrants are always second class citizen everywhere. If the
immigrant is non-skilled, he will be descriminated. But natives will also be
descriminated if he is nonskilled. In America, for example, Amartya Sen wasn't
second class citizen.
Again, my point was re France. French people need to decide if they really think
the immigrants there are really second class.If people like Zidane who was feted
as national hero just four years early in the World Cup are really second class
citizens. There should be no shame in being immigrant. (This issue is different from
being illegal immigrant, as you can understand!)
|
| KOKO |
Posted
on 25-Apr-02 01:15 PM
Biswo,
I do not agree with you on your argument about skilled or non skilled and class of citizens. For example, A white man and a Nepali applies for the same position in Europe, Us or Aussie. The white person will definately get the 1st preference(its a white man's world). I do not know where you live but I personally face it on a daily basis. Its part of life. Here in the Us they don't even give chance to Blacks or hispanics(look at police force, politicians, army, AND ALL THE FEDERAL INSTITUTIONS)). But things are gradually changing, it will take its due time.
Your example of Zidane is an exception. Like Tenzing Sherpa being embraced by the Indians. Or MIchael Jordan in the Us. They have double standards for actors, sports personnel, and famous people. But if you are regular Joe then you're just another stat on a minority census.
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 25-Apr-02 01:32 PM
Koko:
For a regular job, you are right, they will get preference and it is not racism. Nobody gives preference to outsider if they have their own person doing their
job. It is not what I think is racism.
Racism is to deny a person his natural right.If you are a citizen of USA with a
better qualification than another white guy, and yet you are not given chance,
then that is descrimination. I am yet to find such case here.
Actually,I know one recent case involving my acquaintee, an American with a
degree from UIUC. He applied for an extension position in University of Georgia.
Extension position requires extensive contact with the farmers in Georgia, and thus
English a must. Another applicant was a guy from Purdue(not better than UIUC),
and was a phillippino. The Phillippino got the job.
I don't say US is a perfect place. Racism abounds here too. But it is better than a
lot of other places. That is my experience. You can also get residency permit and
suffrage right here sooner than most of the countries in the world.
The French case is different. Le Pen and his cohorts think that all scourge of their
society stems from the immigrants living there. This is a blantantly racist view. My
opposition is to such kind of descriminatory way of thinking.
|
| Huri |
Posted
on 25-Apr-02 01:56 PM
Biswo,
How do you know that all the votes that Le Pen got were from people who believe his ideas about immigrants in France? I agree with French girl that Le Pen could have gotton his votes from people who support his disagreement with things like Euro currency, and all the downfall France has been facing due to the current president who is a liar. I am sure that not all of 17% of population of France that voted Le Pen are as racist as Le Pen. They could be the peolpe agreeing with his other ideologies. So, Biswo you are wrong in assuming that France's fate is in wrong place if you think all of the 17% of people who voted this extremist are with him for being racist.
And Biswo, the Phillipino guy might be an exception. There have been cases where two equally qualified or even one, more qualified immigrant than the american has been denied the job that he and his american partner both applied for. I can tell you that from my own experience. There are racist all over the world. What do you think about the nepalis who don't believe in letting Dalits enter the temple? What do you think about those who don't even drink water from other people who they think are from lower caste? Don't you think that is a racisim of some sort? I am telling you, if someone who believed in caste system and came from a upper caste goes for an election wit his beliefs of caste system, there are going to be a lot of people who are going to support him.
Just don't ignore what goeson in your own Nepal just because topics like that are never brought into light. Just because you hear about racisim in America and other developed countries, don't jump to conclusion that it doesn't occur in Nepal. At least the minorities in US are protected by law, are those dalits/women/and many people from lower caste (if you believe in it) protected by law in Nepal? Just think.
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 25-Apr-02 02:17 PM
Huri:
You can interpret about France's election in the most optimistic way. But I don't do
that. I just don't realise how come people disaffected with Euro jump to vote the
racist guy who is against Jews, Arabs, and all immigrants.
>And Biswo, the Phillipino guy might be an exception. There have been cases
>where two equally qualified or even one, more qualified immigrant than the
>american has been denied the job that he and his american partner both applied
>for. I can tell you that from my own experience.
Sorry to hear about your experience. But I am not defending everything about
America. It is just that I haven't found many examples of racism even though I
lived in deep south.
> There are racist all over the world. What do you think about the nepalis who
>don't believe in letting Dalits enter the temple? What do you think about those
>who don't even drink water from other people who they think are from lower
>caste? Don't you think that is a racisim of some sort? I am telling you, if someone
>who believed in caste system and came from a upper caste goes for an election
>wit his beliefs of caste system, there are going to be a lot of people who are
>going to support him.
Huri, nobody is supporting caste system here. The difference between Nepal and
France of today is that , let me repeat it again, we don't have a racist party
garnering 17% vote, ok? You can always have some racist people everywhere,
but having a racist party is different thing. 17% of votes is a lot. (UML got 27%
in the first general election and the next time it was all over local bodies in Nepal.
So imagine what is it like having 17% people voting for a noted racist !) It is the
highest percentage of vote any racist got in a major nation! That is worrisome.
>Just don't ignore what goeson in your own Nepal just because topics like that are
>never brought into light.
Well, did I ignore racism in Nepal? No. In previos threads, I have always said we
have grave inequality in Nepal, and nation's resources are not equitably shared. I
don't pretend we don't have racism. But we don't have organized racism, ok? That
is fact. We don't have a party going around telling people that all the source of
today's evils are Bihari Immigrants or Madhise and yet getting 17% of votes.
There are only some delirious individuals who think that way.
|
| Da Ge |
Posted
on 25-Apr-02 04:12 PM
To Biswoji,
My initial comments comparing Nani Maiya's victory with Le Pen's limited success in French election may have undermined its efficacy in the society. But we cannot solely blame skin heads and bigots for his strong support. Yes, just because you're frustrated, does not mean you are excused to vote a rascist politican to show your contempt against the current political establishment. But, my point is past french governments are also to blame for their ineffictiveness in forwarding agenda improving the economical and financial condition of French people. They either over-achieved or under-achieved (depending on how your views are aligned) in forwarding irresponsibly restrictive labor laws and unbelievably high taxes. They need to share the blame for allowing this unprecedent right wing victory.
To all:
Although America may not be the perfect place, their efforts in rooting out the racism should be applauded. I have been here for few years and so far I have never had any untowardly experience regarding racism. Credit should be given where credit is due.
Nepal is not immuned to the evils of racism. It has its own problems re racism specially against Teraibasi. But we are not talking about Nepal's problems (that can be a topic of discussion on its own). We cannot ignore racism in France because we have racial problems in Nepal. Anybody who wants to promote tolerance is duty bound to criticize wherever such problems arise. Biswo is right criticizing the French for their support of Le Pen, specially in light of rising anti-semitism in France. After all, it only took one victory of racist to Power for distruction of many lives in WWII.
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| French Girl |
Posted
on 25-Apr-02 04:53 PM
biswo
when i say that there are some foreigners and homosexuals who voted for him, i just mean that they are probably not aware that le pen is xenophobic and homophobic. got it?
and anyway, if france was so racist and if people were fine in france with le pen, would there have been demonstrations all day since sunday? people in france are not fine with what happened. the ones who didnt vote (an there are a lot) because they didnt want to vote for someone they didnt like (like you do, biswo) are aware of the mistakes they made. le pen wont be president. i dont say that there wont be people voting for him. again, french people will have to choose between a liar who would be in jail if he were not president, and a fascist. it's a hard choice. but anyway, i know that you will always have something to reply to me (you'll probably copy- paste my whole message and reply to it point by point...) and i know that nothing will change your mind about how bad and racist french people are... so bye
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| Gorbachov |
Posted
on 25-Apr-02 06:40 PM
Poor girl!... she came from all the way to this site and trying to put her point of view. All you guys can do is criticize her. Well, Please try to be in her shoes. I meant, being a french citizen has to face the reality, and we don't and we should't talk trash about it. When you have a choice between bad and worse and you have to choose. What would you choose? It is a tough decision. So that's what she is trying to make her point. (at least that's what I perceived but I could be wrong). This world is not ideal . Rather than criticizing alot of things, we should go around the harsh real world and make it work. That's what makes us decent human being. You guys are all intellectual ppl here. And I suppose you all wanna be on top to feel important or try to prove your point or whatever. But looking from different angle for "logic' can generate a viable solution rather than just going after facts. And please biwaso, don't quote my message and try to defend it. I am sure you have taken alot of classes in "arguement". But don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading your responses., please keep posting. But sometime going after same thing again and again can be irritating. As we say... enough is enough.
Sorry if I generate any confusion. I am still working on my english.
P.S. I am impressed by the fact that this site is getting global. Take care.
disclaimer: I don't know this french girl whoever she is. I am just an observer.
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| Kaprov |
Posted
on 25-Apr-02 07:24 PM
who is this biswo and who is this french girl talking to?
biswo is nepali and she is french and they are trying to argue with each other?
biswo seems pretty knowledgeable and this french girl seems pretty practical...they both seem to know what they are talking about...very good topic to discuss...hope you both come again and share your vision and concerns...thank you and bye bye
Kaprov
Komite gosudarste benzopas nostivov
(greetings from Russia)
|
| Huri |
Posted
on 26-Apr-02 03:32 AM
Biswo Wrote:
Well, did I ignore racism in Nepal? No. In previos threads, I have always said we
have grave inequality in Nepal, and nation's resources are not equitably shared. I
don't pretend we don't have racism. But we don't have organized racism, ok? That
is fact. We don't have a party going around telling people that all the source of
today's evils are Bihari Immigrants or Madhise and yet getting 17% of votes.
There are only some delirious individuals who think that way.
Hey Biswo, didn't one of our own politicians (forgot the name and what party he was from) said that it was ok to Kill Cow and eat its meat once? There were people from his party that supported his argument. His argument might not make him aracist but it certainly puts him against all the hindu society that we all live in.
Take it EZ
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