| ashu |
Posted
on 02-Mar-01 12:26 PM
Hello everyone,
I am very happy that we have a vigorous
discussion going here. Regardless of whether people
see this as a winning or a losing thing, the
fact that we have lively Web discussions is
something to be celebrated. This sort of lively
discussions do NOT happen just like that. Many,
many thanks to all who have contributed their
thoughts and counter-thoughts.
Biswo Poudel's foray into the Kamaiya thing and his attempts to link that up with elitism convinces me how little he
really knows about it. There is really no point in
my trying to answer him in detail here (he can read
the details in my Kamaiya book that's currently
being completed under the guidance of three
Kathmandu-based social scientists).
But it's NECESSARY to tell him that instead of
spouting theories about the Kamaiya Movement from
Auburn, Alabama, and linking that up with the
so-called concerns of the "elites", what he needs
to do is actually meet and talk to people like
Dilli Bahadur Chaudhary, Yagya Raj Chaudhary, Raj
Deo Chaudhary and many of their Tharu and ex-Kamaiya
colleagues to find out for himself how much of
social elites they are, how much of social elitism
this Kamaiya Movement has, and how elitist their
concerns are.
As long as he doesn't do that, there is not much
credibility for Biswo to gain by spinning theories
about something he's seeing only from afar and about
something which still remains in a fluid situation
in Nepal.
As far as MY involvement (presumably, in the eyes
of Biswo and others, as a 'poster-boy for the elites') in the Kamaiya Movement is concerned, it's been at the level of assisting the activists with skills they want help with: such as talking to the media (both national and international), drumming up international support for their cause, lobbying the politicians, foreign embassies and key Nepali policy-makers, and
sharpening strategies with introspective
cross-questioning and fierce internal debates.
We all talk about Nepal ko bikas, and I consider
myslf privileged to able to witness the Kamaiya
Andolan from a front-row seat. In the process, I
have observed much and learnt a whole lot more
about Nepal that I simply wouldn't have otherwise.
For this, I remain grateful to my Tharu friends,
and to my colleagues at Martin Chautari for giving
me this excellent opportunity.
Now, I did NOT discover the Kamaiya Movement as a
fashion or as a thing to do in the year 2000 upon
coming back from the US. It would be news to people
like Biswo that I've been working on the Kamaiya
issue since 1995 when I first spent six straight months working as a legal-aid volunteer with Dilli and others in Far Western Nepal. [I am NOT from Far Western Nepal, nor do I have any land or relatives there!]
Since 1995, I had been in touch -- on and off -- with
Dilli and many others and was regularly informed
as to what was going on in the Far West Nepal.
That is why, it's NOT the Ivy League degree and all
the elitism it implies that has given me a front-row
seat in this Kamaiya Movement, but something as
simple, heart-warming and pro-commitment as
long-term and long-maintained friendships with
the activists who are leading the Andolan.
After all, let's face it, if the whole kamaiya thing
is indeed a 'fashion thing' for Kathmandu's elites,
then FIVE YEARS and counting, my dear friend, is a
hell of a long time for anyone with no direct stake
in the movement to hold on to this issue. Fashions,
after all, change every season!!
Assisting the activists has never been a career move
for me, but something I feel strongly about, and
when I feel strongly about something, I stick to it
no matter what.
Sure, there are indeed MANY other needed things to
be done in Nepal, but there are only 24 hours a day,
and there is only so much any one can do with any
ONE social issue. My particular issue has been
assisting the Kamaiya activists, and I am perfectly happy to be doing my best job on this without worrying about
the Chepangs and the Rautes and the rest.
What's more, just as I do NOT make my living off
managing the Kathmandu Film Archives, nor do I
make money by helping run discussions at Martin
Chautari, and nor too I earn my money from all this
Kamaiya work.
Helping Nepali entrepreneurs run private-sector,
market-driven and market-tested businesses is what
really keeps me energized, while I do these other
things (including helping discussion continue on
this Site) as a volunteer to keep my batteries
recharged. [This is why, despite what Sheelu
said, I do NOT consider myself a human rights
activist, though many human rights activists
in Nepal have now become my good friends!]
That's all.
In light of the above, so much for the Kamaiya
Movement (with Biswo-led NG0-bashing and all that!)
being a window into the nature of elites and
elitism in Kathmandu!!
Biswo Poudel needs a different issue to use as
credible evidence of the corrosive effects of
so-called elites and elitism in Nepal.
Since he's from Chitawan, perhaps, echoing Sri
Lankan researcher Arjun Guneratna's thesis, Biswo
may want to look into the land distribution issue in
Chitawan District, and tell us all how the native
Tharus in Chitawan ended up with a lot less land
than the Bahuns and Chettris from the hills who
had access to the state machinery to grab land
for themselves, wile the Tharus did not.
Such an issue, that too from a naive son like Biswo,
would perhaps give us a more nuanced sense of
social elites and social elitism in Nepal.
oohi
ashu
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 02-Mar-01 11:24 PM
Dear Ashu:
The lesson of argumentation says that one needs to veer arguements
towards the domain of his expertise. Here you go, after a
long meandering discussion, we are at the Kamaiya issue, the
favorite domain of yours.
>Hello everyone,
>Biswo Poudel's foray into the Kamaiya thing and his attempts to >link that up with elitism convinces me how little he
>really knows about it. There is really no point in
>my trying to answer him in detail here (he can read
>the details in my Kamaiya book that's currently
>being completed under the guidance of three
>Kathmandu-based social scientists).
Biswo Poudel didn't attempt to write any article about Kamaiya
issue & , don't worry, won't join some NGO to compete agaist yours
own. Biswo Poudel doesn't evaluate oneself to be greater and
better than others. Biswo Poudel understands that his existence
is immaterial to almost everything of this world: from this
website to his classroom, from the politics of Nepal to the
Tharus of Chitwan. I don't pretend that my foray is for making
any dent.Biswo Poudel hopefully will live a normal life,
without any pretension, without any bitterness, and as the
quotation of Emerson that you once published here, will try to
look back in the dusk of his life about the effect his life
cast on any living person.
>But it's NECESSARY to tell him that instead of
>spouting theories about the Kamaiya Movement from
>Auburn, Alabama, and linking that up with the
>so-called concerns of the "elites", what he needs
>to do is actually meet and talk to people like
>Dilli Bahadur Chaudhary, Yagya Raj Chaudhary, Raj
>Deo Chaudhary and many of their Tharu and ex-Kamaiya
>colleagues to find out for himself how much of
>social elites they are, how much of social elitism
>this Kamaiya Movement has, and how elitist their
>concerns are.
Qualifying discussants and attacking his right to take part in
discussion have begun to be norm of your arguments. Just because
I live in Auburn, Alabama doesn't mean that I should only
support what some people are doing longheadedly out there in KTM.
If your criteria is to be implemented in everything, the number
of discussants here will be downsized to ,well,you can guess, very
few.
A movement that is running in Nepal is concern of all of us.That
is my belief.I haven't talk to any Maoist rebel, but Maoist
war do affect me and I have right to speak about it. God willing,
one day I shall see the plight of Kamaiyas with my own eyes.(If
you guys keep having such demands , and giving them less chances
of vocational training, the problem will live long enough to give
me that chance,anyway.)
I am worried about plight of Kamaiya, there is no doubt at that.
In fact, I have been reading about it since Prakash Kafle sent
people to those area in the initial 90s, and Mulyankan and other
leftist papers started publishing about it. And you know they
were the pioneer in this field, in terms of introducing the
Kamaiya plight to national media. I would love to know any
contrary evidence, but I think they were pioneer in this field.
Situation of a lot of people in Nepal is ,in anyway, not different
from Kamaiyas. The government is unsuccessful, and govt revenue
collection has been in such a doldrum since decades. Despondency
has been hallmark of all the populace.The shining of people's
eyes have faded, the morale of youth plummeted, and
it is so easy to fan disgruntlement of such populace, that an
unplacatable problem called Maoist war has already been churned
out by allocating opalescent dream of egalatarianism and equal
distribution of wealth. These elements who are fanning such
disgruntlements whether that of Kamaiyas or that of other poors
in Rolpa or Rukum has one common modus operandi: temptation. They
give temptation to their constituency, and keep them energized.
Wittingly or unwittingly, people demanding 10 kaththas of land
for Kamaiyas are doing the same thing as that of Maoists.
Now as for talking to Kamaiyas: when you talk to the needy people
they will surely asks for lands,food and other things. I would
love to give them this thing, but sorry, that isn't viable. I
am not a reactionary,but that is truth.
Again, do you remember the story of Pakistan in the time of
partition? I am sure you do. Just to remind you: Moslems from
other parts went there, and seized a few lands left by Hindus.
But they were poor and opportunity-less. They had to sell those
lands to local jamindaar for providing for their family. Those
lands finally got accumulated to those big jamindaars. Result:
now Pakistan has a few big jamindaars exerting almost all of
her land.
Land allocation issue is very vexed one. I don't know if
you ever worked in land, if you ever planted rice, if you ever
went to irrigate the land, if you ever witnessed dispute of
lands in the rural areas of Nepal. May be you are conversant with
these things,though your background doesn't indicate that. Let
me tell this thing: 10 kaththas of land is not sufficient for a
family. In present day Nepal, unless you have a salable skill,
you will find it very hard to sustain just by depending in land.
Poorer peasants turn to proletariats pretty soon.For the peasants
in Chitwan, the process was not that painful, because they could
buy more land in the cheaper places like Bardiya by selling few
lands in Chitwan. A person in our village sold his seven kaththas
to buy five bigahas in Bardiya.Such migration of peasants has been
routine in lower class (economically) peasants of Chitwan. It
has also resulted in accumulation of land to a few people. You
probably know that a lot of lands allocated to sukumbasis end
up in the hand of rich people. The reason is : without any salable
skill, the sukumbasis just couldn't think of any use of those
lands, and the necessity compels them to sell them. Life is
complex for peasants ,my dear friend, and it is not as easy as
going down to problematic area and looking at that and writing
a proposal for project.
>As long as he doesn't do that, there is not much
>credibility for Biswo to gain by spinning theories
>about something he's seeing only from afar and about
>something which still remains in a fluid situation
>in Nepal.
Sorry if I am spinning theories. I think, it is applied to you
also. How many days do you spend in a year among Kamaiyas? Do
you think you understand all the problems related to them? And
who is making the situation fluid there?Just by going there for
field visits two weeks a year doesn't make you significantly
better.
My emphasis is on teaching skills, and this is unwavering. I
don't believe in throwing sweets for populace. Now you allocate
land, when the land reserve empties, what will you do? There
will still be hapless poor people, This is just a myopic demand.
Think this: prevention is better than cure.
>As far as MY involvement (presumably, in the eyes
>of Biswo and others, as a 'poster-boy for the elites') in the >Kamaiya Movement is concerned, it's been at the level of >assisting the activists with skills they want help >with: such >as talking to the media (both national .and .international), >drumming up international support for their cause, lobbying the >politicians, foreign embassies and key Nepali policy-makers, and
>sharpening strategies with introspective
>cross-questioning and fierce internal debates.
Ashu, let me make it clear, I am not concerned about you
personally. Didn't ask about your personal detail either.I
think you are doing fine. You are working for what you believe,
probably. But I don't believe what you are doing is good. You
do your job, and as I always said, try to convince us that
you are doing a great job,so that we can be convinced,so that
we can see what is wrong.I haven't seen a single person in USA
until now who actually favored the land allocation,even though
they would love to extend their sympathy to the Kamaiyas. Every
body thinks way out of misery is skill, hopefully a salable skill.
Again if you don't think it is necessary for you to convince us
about your motive, that is also fine. That is your right. I am
nobody, I can't do anything to you.All I can do is to make this
website clear of garbages whenever I see them here.
>We all talk about Nepal ko bikas, and I consider
>myslf privileged to able to witness the Kamaiya
>Andolan from a front-row seat. In the process, I
>have observed much and learnt a whole lot more
>about Nepal that I simply wouldn't have otherwise.
>For this, I remain grateful to my Tharu friends,
>and to my colleagues at Martin Chautari for giving
>me this excellent opportunity.
That is what I am saying : you are talking from your perspective.
I and probably other persons also have witnessed poor Nepal, a
problematic Nepal, a decadent system, a crumbling statecraft,
the instigators and the experimentors from our childhood.We
didn't need to have opportunity from Harvard or Martin Chautari
to see how indentured Tharus of Chitwan became somewhat
independent, how nationally trumpeted irrigation project didn't
work for even a year and became defunct, how farmers participated
and disillusioned with Sajha Karyakram, how people suffer from
lack of fertilizers in the land and other things.
>Now, I did NOT discover the Kamaiya Movement as a
>fashion or as a thing to do in the year 2000 upon
>coming back from the US. It would be news to people
>like Biswo that I've been working on the Kamaiya
>issue since 1995 when I first spent six straight months working >as a legal-aid volunteer with Dilli and others in Far Western >Nepal. [I am NOT from Far Western Nepal, nor do I have any land >or relatives there!]
>Since 1995, I had been in touch -- on and off -- with
>Dilli and many others and was regularly informed
>as to what was going on in the Far West Nepal.
>That is why, it's NOT the Ivy League degree and all
>the elitism it implies that has given me a front-row
>seat in this Kamaiya Movement, but something as
>simple, heart-warming and pro-commitment as
>long-term and long-maintained friendships with
>the activists who are leading the Andolan.
Again, it is not a personal issue regarding you. You have
written all good things about your magnanimity and all those
things YOU perceive about YOURSELF.But my idea is you are ,as
you showed by defending elitism, a part of elitism that has
been plaguing KTM. You got to prove you are a better person by
getting done something creative, something productive, something
in which you can be satisfied and we can be convinced. Biswo
Poudel,as you know, is immaterial to you or your life or your
functionality. His criticism doesn't ,perhaps, percolate down
from this webpages to anywhere. Things you do are for yourself,
for your self esteem. When you want to speak up with people, you
are scrutinized more rigorously. Make your ideas straight and
consistent and cogent.And good luck to you about that.
>After all, let's face it, if the whole kamaiya thing
>is indeed a 'fashion thing' for Kathmandu's elites,
>then FIVE YEARS and counting, my dear friend, is a
>hell of a long time for anyone with no direct stake
>in the movement to hold on to this issue. Fashions,
>after all, change every season!!
How can you justify this movement which has lost public
sympathy over time, which involves two intransigent parties in
dialogue table(well,if there is any dialogue), and where few guys
are more involved in bickering with other Kamaiya Mukti factions
and remaining are courting foreigners more than local Nepalese
people!!
>Assisting the activists has never been a career move
>for me, but something I feel strongly about, and
>when I feel strongly about something, I stick to it
>no matter what.
>Sure, there are indeed MANY other needed things to
>be done in Nepal, but there are only 24 hours a day,
>and there is only so much any one can do with any
>ONE social issue. My particular issue has been
>assisting the Kamaiya activists, and I am perfectly happy to be >doing my best job on this without worrying about
>the Chepangs and the Rautes and the rest.
Ashu, don't be naive, I am not asking you to get involved in all
other issues. Other people uses such logic. What I am asking a
person like you is to think broadly, think broadly what you are
doing, realize which cul-de-sac you are moving on, and what are
the implications of your demands for the national government. You
demand like a labor union leader,"Increase workers'salary by 100%
or we will stage strike!!". That sucks,man.
>What's more, just as I do NOT make my living off
>managing the Kathmandu Film Archives, nor do I
>make money by helping run discussions at Martin
>Chautari, and nor too I earn my money from all this
>Kamaiya work.
>Helping Nepali entrepreneurs run private-sector,
>market-driven and market-tested businesses is what
>really keeps me energized, while I do these other
>things (including helping discussion continue on
>this Site) as a volunteer to keep my batteries
>recharged. [This is why, despite what Sheelu
>said, I do NOT consider myself a human rights
>activist, though many human rights activists
>in Nepal have now become my good friends!]
Let's not get personal.Think about you as a logical presence,
not a physical presence. Sadly, I am not concerned about what
you do for living, or what you did for living. We are talking
about what you are espousing. This thread doesn't involve
your activity in KFA. I like what you are doing in KFA,btw. This
theater thing also sounds good and I encourage you to go for
these things. But again, your arguments are often tainted by your
inherent cronyism. Your defense mostly rests on your personal
feeling. That is too glaring not to note.
>That's all.
>In light of the above, so much for the Kamaiya
>Movement (with Biswo-led NG0-bashing and all that!)
>being a window into the nature of elites and
>elitism in Kathmandu!!
Correction: Not all NGO bashing, I am talking about 90% of those.
After all, I am a contributor to Red Cross society.I have faith
in that organization. Family planning organizations were doing
comparatively fine. A few homegrown NGOs ,which raise local
resources, are also praiseworthy. I hate those NGOs which look
for foreigners, work for foreigners, and entropies after the
foreigners leave lending the support.
>Biswo Poudel needs a different issue to use as
>credible evidence of the corrosive effects of
>so-called elites and elitism in Nepal.
Thanks for your suggestion. I think I made my points clear now.
>Since he's from Chitawan, perhaps, echoing Sri
>Lankan researcher Arjun Guneratna's thesis, Biswo
>may want to look into the land distribution issue in
>Chitawan District, and tell us all how the native
>Tharus in Chitawan ended up with a lot less land
>than the Bahuns and Chettris from the hills who
>had access to the state machinery to grab land
>for themselves, wile the Tharus did not.
Gunaratne , who worked around Sauraha , and was fluent in Tharu
language was a fine scholar from Chicago University. He helped
establish NIDS. I don't want to show off my relation with those
people related to NIDS here,however.
I also think I can write about land distribution issue in Chitwan
as you think.First of all, I don't buy that a report written
by a foreign scholar in English language is the best reference
for such study.So, thanks ,but no thanks for your reference. It
is also interesting to note that you have mentioned 'Bahuns'
and 'Chhetris' as the person descending from hills and sucking
local bloods. It shows your limits of understanding about Chitwan.
The immigrants in Chitwan are from other castes also. Actually,
the richest citizens of Chitwan are Newars from Bandipur and
other places. Go to Tandi, Sauraha, Narayanghat etc, and this
fact will be corroborated.Also there are blacksmiths, Sarkis,
Tailors and all those hardworking respectable people, who fled
their miserable life in Pahad.So, it is wrong to say that
Bahun and Chhetris descended to Chitwan from hill and plundered
Tharus, while omitting other castes.
In Tandi, I have always pushed for more scholarship for Tharus
in schools, and better enterpreneur and job opportunities for
them. The reality about land grabbing is harsh: some immigrants
used all the means to grab lands owned by Tharus. This issue is
not CASTE RELATED as you imply, but CLASS RELATED. Those who
were powerful used every machineries available to them. I don't
know why you want to qualify people based on caste.You have this
objectionable separatist trait.I can show you bahuns who are
poorer than Tharus in Tandi. My previous classmates told me
last time when I was in Nepal that lots of young Tharus no longer
drink alcohol as their parents do, nor do they give away
their land to the unscrupulous money lenders as they used to do.
People like Satya Narayan(of NIDS) ,and Chitra Narayan, Baliram
Chaudhari and others who have been in teaching positions in local
highschools are widely respected for their fortitude and help in
community awareness locally. For people in KTM, things become
issue only when national media writes it/ or a foreign writer
writes it, and solution is gained only after a foreign agency
provides donation to find out the solution. Quiet and locally
motivated revolutions go unnoticed.
>Such an issue, that too from a naTive son like Biswo,
>would perhaps give us a more nuanced sense of
>social elites and social elitism in Nepal.
If you are insinuating that a son of a BRAHMAN immigrant who
descended from HILL, Biswo, is a part of the whole dirty game
that took away lands from Tharus in Chitwan, then I think it is
a gross guess.The same issue can be raised about BRAHMANs living
in KTM, after all Jyapus were the original landowners there.But
I don't want to issue such wild and communal guesses here.
My family believed in a system of social justice. My dad was not
a highclass person, so was not capable of exploiting state
machinery. I believe in compassion, not ruthlessness. I believe
in quiet speedy manuever, not a flamboyant burst. I just don't
believe in half-baked solutions that a myopic think tank tries
to impose in everything . We worked hard to raise ourselves from
the position of poverty, my uneducated parents raised there
children with education of honesty and self esteem and the result:
most of their half a dozen children has graduate degree from
US Universities.This taught me how education and correct path
can help people, and how few lands are incapable of raising
people's standard.
Hopefully, we won't talk about our families and family background
later.I also respect your family though I don't know them.
|
