I am not Nepali-born but I love the country and I have many friends there, and besides every human deserves to be able to live in peace. Every day I am crying inside about the conflict. I cannot support either the CPN(M) or the government given their behaviors. I share much analysis of the problems of Nepal with the CPN(M) but I cannot support their agenda or means to achieving it. I am trying to help find a true peace. I have written this news release and created a website.
I want all comments and input I can get, and I am trying to organize for peace in Nepal here in the Boston area. Anyway who can help me please let me know. I will be speaking at the South Asian Center meeting this coming Wednesday if you want to meet in person.
Please remember to visit the website listed at the end, and there are also email lists you can join if you want.
(soon to become nepalsolidarity.net -- I have bought the URL.)
******* NEWS RELEASE *******
The US recently announced support for the government of Nepal in this, the 7th year of conflict between the Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) and the government. Both the CPN(M) and the government of Nepal have been condemned by human rights groups including Amnesty International. The state of Nepal has been condemned for continuously carrying out "summary executions" and recent reports in the Christian Science Monitor and The Globe and Mail have described such "death squad" tactics. Yet last week, the Bush administration declared full support for the government of Nepal.
Oil interests have recently come to light in Nepal, and James Baker recently went to Delhi in this connection, indicating an ulterior motive on the part of the US state.
There is an estimated 9 billion m3 of natural gas in the Nepalganj area in Nepal. The US-based corporation "Texana" was awarded joint exploration rights in 1998. In April 2002, James Baker went to Delhi on a shrouded agenda including Nepali oil.
Shortly after the suspicious murder of King Birendra last Summer, with the rise of King Gyanendra, the Nepali state set its Army on the CPN(M) and declared them "terrorists". After declaring a "state of emergency", the Nepali state has heavily cracked down on freedom of the press, more than its previous very poor record on this, and began arresting anyone suspected of connection to the CPN(M). In general, the country is operating in a fascist atmosphere of repression.
In light of Baker's recent visit to Nepal on behalf of "Texana", and what is known about the Bush administrations strong and numerous connections to the oil industry, what might be the influence of these interests on US policy in Nepal? Might these interests being hampering achievement of a true and just peace? Without adequate information, observers can only wonder.
For more information, visit the Nepal Solidarity Network website: http://vm.uconn.edu/~ser00003/ns.html
Sage
Posted
on 11-May-02 07:39 PM
I just want to clarify that this news release was written for US activists, and is a gross oversimplification of the Nepali political context. I am not completely aware of the nuances of the Nepali context, so this is partly out of ignorance. But I want to state that I am ignorant but willing to learn. I know there are strong emotions on this issue. Please do not assume that my full position is stated in this news release. But please help me learn.
Jitendra
Posted
on 11-May-02 09:11 PM
Hi Sage:
Read your appeal. Very interesting. I have just one question, however, and that is can anyone (FBI , CIA or any lawyer) sue you for disseminating false information and thus misleading American public? I will appreciate your response. Gas in Nepalgunj , huh? Whole two generations in my family worked for bhugarva bibhag and they never knew this.
I will appreciate your response very much.
Sage
Posted
on 11-May-02 09:31 PM
Hi Jitendra:
I don't know how to interpret your reply. As for the information in the report, the factual basis is in several articles available to the public online, which I have collected at this webpage:
vm.uconn.edu/~ser00003/ns_oil.html
You can follow each link and check it out yourself. The article about Texana in the Nepalgunj has been picked up and repeated by a multitude of news sources. As for whether the Financial Express and HMG's Foreign Investment Board and Outlook India are reporting accurate information, that is your guess, but I am inclined to believe that they are not making this up.
As for misleading the American public, I wonder if anyone can sue the FBI and CIA for doing exactly that, since they have done it repeatedly and continue to do it and even hire PR experts to help them in this endeavour.
nepali
Posted
on 11-May-02 11:59 PM
Sage, I visited your site. I went through a couple of links to recent articles on Nepal. They were about the alleged abuses of human rights by the security forces. But these articles painted a very one-sided picture of this war. It would be stupid to think that the Maoists are any better than the security forces. The Maoists have shown no respect, whatsoever, for human rights. The only problem is that these so called Human Right Experts/Officials haven't dared to venture into the Maoist strongholds and tried to investigate on stories of excess by the Maoist side. So whatever news comes out of Nepal only delves into the issue of right violations by security forces. Such reporting will tarnish the image of the government forces fighting the terrorists. If Nepal is to be left alone in its war against terror, the country will turn into another Afganistan, Cambodia, or North Korea. Nepal needs help from countries like the US and the UK. Nepali security forces are fighting a new breed of evil. These Maoists are merely exploiting the injustices inherent in the Nepali society to meet its own selfish ends. And they are prepared to sacrifice any number of innocent civillians to reach its goal.
NepaliChora
Posted
on 12-May-02 12:24 AM
I agree with Nepali, you should also include the facts about Maobadis violating human rights, using civilians and children as human shields, killing people by firing indiscriminately in a passenger bus, killing security people execution style, killing other party members after torture, killing after skinning the victim and the like horrible events.
I hope you are not trying to paint one-sided picture.
jayshrestha
Posted
on 12-May-02 12:34 AM
Sage, After reading your postings, I have come to a conclusion that you are a sympathizer of the left. Thus you have the tendency to believe in propoganda and false news reports, a trademark trait of the leftists. As far as gas and oil reserve is concerned, I can tell you that Nepal has abundant potential in bio-gas. But Nepal does not have any reserves of petroleum. God has never been so kind to Nepal in its entire history. BTW, where did you get the above article from? Cuban or North Korean news sources?
huh
Posted
on 12-May-02 12:42 AM
If you want to know more about maoist. please read news about maoist in nepalese newspaper's last issues like kathmandu post/rising nepal etc.
your refered website human rightist website is actually maoist propoganda website. they are spreading their propogandas from Germany through their so called human right website: http://www.humanrights.de/n/nepal/
In fact it is known as a official website of maoist.
Maoists blowup bridges Maoists blowup telephone Maoists blowup powerplants Maoists break cease-fire Maoists seen with Tamils Maoists set ablaze carpet Schools/businesses close Maoists torch goods trucks 85 children killed... 85 children killed... 80 children killed... Maoists kill Ex-Cop, Ex-Army Maoists extort from teachers Maoist execute teacher in front of his students Maoists bomb bus peoples were burnt alive inside bus by maoist maoist kill political activist of cpn uml and nepali congress Maoists torture father Maoists behead dead Maoists burn 20 homes Maoist force “human shield” Maoists try to storm bank security personnel lined up & executed by Maoists etc. etc..........
There are countless human right violence by maoist, please don't visit only maoist websites.
nepali
Posted
on 12-May-02 12:51 AM
Maybe these Human Rights Activists/Experts don't visit the Maoist strongholds to investigate the crimes committed by the Maoists because they are afraid that the Maoists will violate their own human rights if they say anything against the Peoples' War!
NepaliChora
Posted
on 12-May-02 01:03 AM
.. these could be maobadis pretending to be someone else..
huh
Posted
on 12-May-02 01:08 AM
nepaliji,
human rightist demand that government should make arrangement to visit maoist affected areas by helicopter, but helicopters are not enough even for rescue operations of security personnels.
when government arrange their tour, they write totally one sided human right violence report.
"jasko jau khanu, uskai junga modnu"
They maintain eerie silence when teachers/political activists are killed, common peoples are tortured by maoists.
are human right activists are doing "nunko sojho", otherwise why do they maintain silence about human right violence of maoists ?
they execute police and soldiers even after their surrender. Isn't it violation of international geneva war treaty ??????????
Sage
Posted
on 12-May-02 08:56 AM
<< Such reporting will tarnish the image of the government forces fighting the terrorists. >>
Killing innocent people is not justified whether it's the Maobadi or the security forces, and I don't think it is of any use to hide facts about either side.
I think people are misunderstanding me. I am not trying to create propaganda. I do not sympathize with the actions of the Maobadi when they are killing innocent people. I also have read all the reports about Maoists blowing up buses and killing children on the buses, and using "human shields" and all of these things. I also include links to the AP and Reuters news and Nepalnews.com and everything else on the website. This is not hard to find anyway.
But I also have a problem with the authenticity of the news. In other words, when the news is always based on "police said" or "the army said" then how can anything ever be verified or trusted, especially in the light of some contradictions which have come out.
I am trying to find out what is happening using clues from the news stories. There are big interests at stake and I don't believe that the press is unbiased, if you will. This has been illustrated most explicitly with the jailings of large numbers of journalists in Nepal, and the editorial language of many news reports which don't take an unbiased tone, let alone report unbiased facts.
About Maobadi human rights abuses, there are many, and I am horrified by this. These are known, and all the organizations including Amnesty and INSEC-Nepal have accused BOTH sides of violating all kinds of conventions on warfare and human rights. There is obviously a horrible situation. What I am looking for is analysis that can help bring about peace. Unfortunately, I am very skeptical of the US involvement in foreign situations. I think the US policy is shaped by oligarchic interests in large part, and also by what can be seen as legitimate enough to pass by in this semi-democratic system. We know that there are human rights abuses on the Maobadi side -- it is not necessary to delve into the Maobadi controlled territory to see this, I think.
(By the way, I am not affiliated in any way with that ".de" so-called human rights site. I am not even running a 'human rights' site although I do draw on several such organizations.)
I hope this clears up some confusion and creates more dialogue. Also, I am not trying to say that oil and gas are the causes of the US foreign policy vis a vis Nepal, but it has not been considered and I want to bring up the issue. Hydrocarbon resources seem to me to shape US policy in a lot of regions, and why should Nepal be an exception?
Sage
Sage
Posted
on 12-May-02 09:03 AM
I forgot to add this.
According to the story on the Texana blocks, there is an estimated 25 million metric tonnes of oil and 18 billion cubic meters of natural gas in the two exploration blocks in Nepal. A billion m3 of gas is a lot, being as much as all of Beijing consumed in 2000. So 18 billion m3 is worth a lot of money. These are facts as reported by financial news sources, and that is all I am stating. I leave it up to anyone else to draw whatever conclusions you may.
Here is the quote from the story:
<< The two blocks, block 3 in the Nepalganj area and block 5 in the Chitwan region, were awarded to Texana by Nepal in 1998 under a production sharing contract. Oil and gas reserves in block 3 have been estimated at 14.41 million metric tonne (mmt) and 9.4 billion cubic meter (bcm) while in block 5 oil and gas reserves have been pegged at 11.70 mmt and 8.8 bcm, respectively.>>
from http://www.financialexpress.com/fe20011025/top3.html
huh
Posted
on 12-May-02 09:58 AM
If so, it wii be better to go nepal,visit maoist affected areas l and to take interview of those people who are suffering from so called "people's war".It will be the most authentic for you.
fren
Posted
on 12-May-02 10:05 AM
Sage, Keep up the good work.
huh
Posted
on 12-May-02 10:06 AM
most of the journalists who are detained are diehard maoists who operate maoist mouthpiece newspapers. I can not say government did not violate human right at all, but since some years, maoist human right violence s exceeded so far the HRV by the government.
huh
Posted
on 12-May-02 10:17 AM
About the hydrocarbon resources, I also read the news, but know little in depth.
_____________________________________ .......James Baker quietly lobbies India Secret visit to gain support for Iraq attack, partner for oil
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: April 15, 2002 1:00 a.m. Eastern
NEW DELHI ?The visit was shrouded in secrecy. Only a few dozen people in India knew that James Baker ?former U.S. secretary of state, Texan oil man and close confidant and key strategist for Presidents George Bush and George W. Bush ?arrived in Delhi a fortnight ago.
The visit set the Indian rumor mill buzzing as oil industry players speculated about its purpose.
........Baker also exhorted Indian companies to join hands with American oil companies for explorations in Nepal, said a senior petroleum ministry official.
ONGC is well-placed to buy a 50 percent stake in two exploration blocks in Nepal, owned by the Houston-based Texana Resources. Indian petroleum ministry sources agree that the state-owned company's investment in the two blocks were of strategic importance to India as they were located near the Indo-Nepal border. Block three in Nepalgunj and block five in the Chitwan region were awarded to Texana by Nepal under a production sharing agreement.
Texana will conduct detailed exploration, including seismic work to further define drilling locations, said Texana president Max Mazy.
"We have high hopes and strong indications that the potential exists for world-class hydrocarbon resources in Nepal," Mazy said.
Baker's interest is understandable. First, a joint venture would help U.S. companies figure out the difficult terrain. Secondly, it would help major U.S. oil firms stave off rival interests. Two Chinese companies ?China National Star Petroleum and National Oil and Gas ?had also expressed interest, along with Pakistan's Oil and Gas Development. ....... _________________________________
Let's collect more news in this topic, to SAGE, thanks for your sincere interest.
nepali
Posted
on 12-May-02 02:37 PM
Sage, How did you come to the conclusion that the independent media in Nepal is biased against the Maoists because of the government? If you go do more research on the ground, instead of limiting your research to random publications, you will find out that almost ever Nepali has reservations against the Maoists. You are arguing that the government is forcing these newspapers to spew its own propoganda. But do you think that the government has to force these independent newspapers to write against the Maoists? Didn't you read the news that the Maoists were extorting donations even from Kantipur, the largest independent media-group in Nepal? With all the wanton killings of innocent civillians, attacks on educational institutions, frequent bandhs, extortions etc. the Maoists have earned its reputation as a terrorist group among civilized Nepali citizens. The government has rightfully declared CPN(M) as a terrorist group. So how can a terrorist group have a newspaper that is sympathetic to its cause and helps spread Maoist propoganda? What would the US government do to newspapers that preach Osama's propoganda inside the US? The journalists that have been arrested in Nepal have been doing just that. They have been shamelessly spreading the propoganda of the terrorists.
Sage
Posted
on 12-May-02 05:36 PM
I come from a perspective of seeing that the mainstream press is consistently biased against leftist movements. But before I say this, I want to clarify once again, as I find it necessary because people jump to conclusions, that I am NOT supporting the Maobadi by saying this. But I have seen that it is a consistent pattern for establishment media to be biased against movements with leftist ideology. One can see this in the case of the "anti-globalization" movement in the US media, which always gets dismissed, misrepresented, lambasted, and generally reported in an editorial style. There was heavy bias in the recent coup in Venezuela, especially since the oligarchs own and control most of the media in that country, and the oligarchs were the same ones who engineered the coup against Chavez, perhaps with US involvement, at least with US acquiescence. And the AP and Reuters went along with the "official" stories despite many independent media reports to the contrary.
The AP and Reuters stories on the conflict in Nepal appear to be similiarly biased, to my eyes. The choices of facts that are included and the choices of wording to describe things are highly loaded. There are textual patterns that consistently appear, though they are not necessary for reporting the "facts" as they are known.
There is also the element that in most stories it is "the army said" or "the police said" or "official sources report that...".
It is always on Radio Nepal "maobadi samaya" (the Maoist problem) rather than "the conflict" or something like this.
There is acceptance of the "official" story even when no independent verification is possible. There is acceptance in a recent story of the word of a US "diplomat" who spoke on condition of anonymity, and described maobadi atrocities of using human shields. Is this a neutral party, if the US has an agenda in this conflict? I am not in denial about maobadi using human shields, but I require proof to some degree, at least as much as if reporters say that the government security forces have been murdering noncombatants, because of the direction of press bias generally.
CNN and TimeAsia are useless. These are basically propaganda machines for the establishment. It is determined by who owns them and who they hire, who remains, and who is fired or never decides to work for them.
But in the US context, censorship is in the form of controlling the media through ownership. In the current situation in Nepal, it is through this means perhaps, but moreso through the intimidation factor of people being jailed under the emergency measures. So about 96 have been jailed, but how many reporters are actually censoring themselves because they are in fear? One (non-Nepali) reporter wrote in the Christian Science Monitor:
"The interpreter I work with is a reporter, and usually he would have rushed back to his office and filed a story on this apparent human-rights atrocity. But because of the state of emergency, he didn't think it was safe to write about this event. 'There have been so many journalists arrested that nobody wants to write such stories anymore,' he told me on the two-hour, bone-rattling ride home to Kathmandu. But he added, 'I'll take notes, and we can tell these stories later, when the emergency is lifted.' "
This clearly indicated self-censorship.
You can also read a Nepali journalist's thoughts on media in Nepal in 1999, long before the current intensity of the conflict and the state of emergency: http://www.jmk.su.se/global99/kiran/research/mediasituation.htm
This includes things like: "The constitution of Nepal 1990, in principle, provides basic democratic rights including the freedom of press and freedom of speech. In practice, however, the Nepali journalists are still being deprived in exercising independent journalism and they are frequently harassed by the authorities and the police."
These are only two journalists' words, but I take them as anectdotal evidence that there is not perfect freedom of the press, any more than there is in the US.
You wrote: "If you go do more research on the ground, instead of limiting your research to random publications, you will find out that almost ever Nepali has reservations against the Maoists."
I understand that most Nepali people have reservations against the Maoists -- I do speak with many people -- I never denied this, I also have reservation against the Maoists, to put it mildly. I think it is horrible the way they are conducting their insurgency. Even if you accept that any people have the right to revolution if the conditions of their lives are unacceptable and the government does not address them. But then it is the rebels' moral responsiblity to be very clear what the revolution is about, and definitely not to kill anyone except in clear combat situations, in which case it would be in self-defense. At least in my opinion.
Sage
Posted
on 12-May-02 05:56 PM
I would also like to direct you to this article from Reporters Sans Frontieres: http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=902
Peace, Sage
huh
Posted
on 12-May-02 06:34 PM
It seems that you want to justify the maoist movement as much you can.
u are always repeating that all of things written about maoist violence are biased.
PLease don't try convince us anymore that what maoist are doing in nepal are justified.
Personnally, I am very sorry for you.
huh
Posted
on 12-May-02 06:38 PM
Yeah, root of maoist movement can be taken as a poverty and social injustice, but in fact they just exploited the situation of remote montainous areas and now they are following the direction which the polpot followed in cambodia.
After reading all of your above posting, It can be concluded that your understanding about maoist war is only through foreignnewpapers or like so.
Their description of robinhood style maoist war is somewhat exaggerated. In fact larger portion of nepali people are terrified due to violent maoist actions.
It is expected that if you want to know more about maoist war, you should study materials from all sides, not like one sided till now.
Of course, There is widespread poverty and corruption in nepal. but, maoist dictatorship could not be its answer.
It is the opinion not only by me, but number of peoples thinking in this way not so small as you think.
I am also one of the frustated one of present political leadership of nepal but could not stand in favour of maoist dictatorship.
Can you conclude they can be democratic and will respect people's right?
If we observe their present behaviours, Answer will be , of course, NO.
They are determined to change whole political system at any cost.
In the past, they took advantage of every situation just to move their war forward. political infighting of political party, power play between leaders, difference in opinion of political parties, release of their workers and leaders, security act, armed police force, in every case, they tried to make cash of the situation
So they are not sincere in talk.
you may think I am like government spokesman but I am also one of maoist hotbed areas where one of my uncle's son is maoist gurrilla, one of son is army soldier. Think how painful this war for me and other nepalis also.
All things I said above is based on my sincere judgement.
So if you want to know more about maoist war, please study more materials and u will understand better and discussion will be more worthy.
Best Solution could be maoist must realize their mistakes of following voilent path and should come in mainstream politics. but They already destroyed so much infrastructre of our poor country that nepal will have to spend years to rebulild them I don't know how people will forgive them?
So much innocent people are used as human shield in fighting. They use to take heads of their dead comrades after beheading them to conceal indendity of them.
Police and security personnels are killed after their surrender in an hitler's execution style.
It is very hard to digest it for peace loving nepali people.
Then, How can they be labelled as a "political party"?????
we can live in corrupted society, but where peoples are killed just because they have different political thinikings, How can we dare to live in that soceity ????
huh
Posted
on 12-May-02 06:42 PM
..........<
huh
Posted
on 12-May-02 06:46 PM
sorry,in the above space above,
...<>.....
After reading these lines what people can guess???
september 11 was also never happened??!!!!!!!!!
Then don't you think such kind of your thinking is biased by yourself ???????
nepali
Posted
on 12-May-02 06:48 PM
Just because the constitution of Nepal allows press freedom does not necessarily mean that the government should allow yellow journalism of the pro-Maoist publications. I read one of your links to a news article written by some pro-Maoist journalist. He claimed that he saw RNA personnel dressed as Maoist guerillas killing innocent villagers and forcing others to sign documents declaring that they were Maoist guerillas killed in combat. Now you tell me how true this story could be? This is just an example of the numerous pro-Maoist propoganda spewed by these leftist newspapers. Every week we read news on Kantipur about young people escaping from their villages because the Maoists are forcing them to join the PLA. Do you think that Kantipur makes up these stories? If you look through Kantipur, you will find numerous stories of villagers who have turned into refugees inside their own country because of the Maoists. Do you think that the government is paying them to act like they have been displaced fromt their homes? Even though you repeatedly claim/clarify that you are not a leftist sympathizer, your views clearly indicate that you are one. I hope you will see the truth and learn to embrace truth and stop misleading American public.
huh
Posted
on 12-May-02 06:48 PM
CNN and TimeAsia are useless. These are basically propaganda machines for the establishment so it seems that september 11 also never happened only propoganda !!!!!!!????!!
Sage
Posted
on 12-May-02 06:49 PM
How can you read my post and still think that I am trying to justify the actions of the Maobadi? I said many times that I am not trying to justify their actions.
I have said I am not Nepali-born or a Nepali citizen, but my understanding (limited as it is) comes from time in rural Nepal as late as last August, during which time I met a platoon of Maobadi who came into the village for a day and spoke to the villagers and I even played volleyball with the Maobadi.
I told them I didn't agree with their full agenda and I was not a communist per se, but that I was also critical of the form of Nepali society as I saw it, and the imperialist world system that is dominated by the U.S. and G-8 nations.
Also, keep in mind that this is before September 11 and also before the current horrible attacks by the Maobadi and the state of emergency. Even after the royal massacre, this was a "saner time" by comparison.
So you see that it is very hard for me to condemn *all* maobadi in one general statement, for I see them as human beings also. It is hard for me to say that a whole group of people is *completely* and *inherently* evil. I have met some young people who were very intense and idealistic, and I was very worried for their future, noticing how they talked about the movement.
I hope that people here can understand that it is possible to view *some* maobadi as human beings and not crazed maniacs, but mistaken in their ardent ideology -- and a very serious mistake that is leading to the deaths of so many people -- but not inherently evil.
Because of this perspective I am trying to work for peace, but I am having a very hard time of it. There is so much hatred all around. Understandably, for this is a time of terror. But terror is not only from the "terrorists" but is also fueled by the system that they are rebelling against.
By the way, in the village meeting of the maobadi, the villagers were not especially scared of the maobadi. They were not worried. Whoever wanted to listen to them went to the schoolyard. Whoever didn't want to stayed home. There was no threat of violence. It was strictly a political agenda that day.
However this is not representative of all maobadi actions, of course. But how much and how little?
I hope I have explained myself well enough.
Sage
Posted
on 12-May-02 06:55 PM
To nepali:
The article that you are referring to is in the Christian Science Monitor, hardly a Maoist mouthpiece, I think.
The reports by Reporters Sans Frontieres are enlightening -- go to www.rsf.org and search for "nepal" and you will find many reports that show it is not just "Maoist mouthpieces" who are affected -- and this has been a pattern for years and is only becoming worse, according to various reports.
You wrote "Even though you repeatedly claim/clarify that you are not a leftist sympathizer, your views clearly indicate that you are one. "
What do you mean by "leftist sympathizer"? If you mean that I wish that everyone has enough to eat and everyone has a reasonable chance to have a fulfilling life, then yes. If you mean I support the Maobadi, then no.
You wrote: "I hope you will see the truth and learn to embrace truth and stop misleading American public."
I am having dialogue to ask serious questions that I think need to be asked. I am not stating any information that I know to be false, and I am stating the sources of my information, which are generally respected sources. Is this okay with you? This is the only hope, as I see it.
huh
Posted
on 12-May-02 07:01 PM
I had read one diary written by westerner(?) who was in village affcted by maoist movement,
He has wrotten that He even played volleyball with those maoist youths. It was similar to your story. I think it should be some village of kavre or sindhu east of kathmandu, isn't it ????
I don't know it was the same person you or somebody else???
I can make it available to you later and you can judge it written by you or other ??
Sage
Posted
on 12-May-02 07:02 PM
What I meant about CNN and TimeAsia is that they are so firmly in the "establishment" side of things that they are the most blatant media outlets in terms of biased presentation.
I don't mean they lie. I mean that the choices of which stories to present, and how to present them, are biased by their class interests, to put it very simply. The same for Daniel Lak, the BBC correspondent in Nepal. He has a charming way of misrepresenting the situation to the outside world, who only gets to hear 30 seconds about Nepal a week, so they believe what he says as the whole situation. I am not saying he lies, but it is the tone and format of the presentation that frames the conflict in a biased way.
huh
Posted
on 12-May-02 07:07 PM
just one question, do you know LI ORNESTO ???
Let me introduce myself, I am from one of gorkha's maoist hotbed village, now staying abroad.Prachanda alias pushpa kamal dahal was a agriculture tacher in my school at one time.
Sage
Posted
on 12-May-02 07:12 PM
No that is not me but please make it available to me. I am interested to read it. No I don't know Li Onesto and I don't think her reporting is unbiased either. It is obviously biased from the other direction.
I am pleased to have your introduction.
huh
Posted
on 12-May-02 07:26 PM
From the above discussion,
I am very pleased to read and know your personnel opinions.
It is not clear to me how u are writing.....her reporting....... it is obviously biased from the other direction.??
I came to the conclusion to that contiunuation of this discussion be still necessary.
I don't think our discussions could be more fuitful.
Thanks and very glad to have discussion with you.
huh
Posted
on 12-May-02 07:33 PM
sage, sorry that It was posted here also due to similarity of discussion topic s. Yeah, root of maoist movement can be taken as a poverty and social injustice, but in fact they just exploited the situation of remote montainous areas and now they are following the direction which the polpot followed in cambodia.
After reading all of your above posting, It can be concluded that your understanding about maoist war is only through foreignnewpapers or like so.
Their description of robinhood style maoist war is somewhat exaggerated. In fact larger portion of nepali people are terrified due to violent maoist actions.
It is expected that if you want to know more about maoist war, you should study materials from all sides, not like one sided till now.
Of course, There is widespread poverty and corruption in nepal. but, maoist dictatorship could not be its answer.
It is the opinion not only by me, but number of peoples thinking in this way not so small as you think.
I am also one of the frustated one of present political leadership of nepal but could not stand in favour of maoist dictatorship.
Can you conclude they can be democratic and will respect people's right?
If we observe their present behaviours, Answer will be , of course, NO.
They are determined to change whole political system at any cost.
In the past, they took advantage of every situation just to move their war forward. political infighting of political party, power play between leaders, difference in opinion of political parties, release of their workers and leaders, security act, armed police force, in every case, they tried to make cash of the situation
So they are not sincere in talk.
you may think I am like government spokesman but I am also one of maoist hotbed areas where one of my uncle's son is maoist gurrilla, one of son is army soldier. Think how painful this war for me and other nepalis also.
All things I said above is based on my sincere judgement.
So if you want to know more about maoist war, please study more materials and u will understand better and discussion will be more worthy.
Best Solution could be maoist must realize their mistakes of following voilent path and should come in mainstream politics. but They already destroyed so much infrastructre of our poor country that nepal will have to spend years to rebulild them I don't know how people will forgive them?
So much innocent people are used as human shield in fighting. They use to take heads of their dead comrades after beheading them to conceal indendity of them.
Police and security personnels are killed after their surrender in an hitler's execution style.
It is very hard to digest it for peace loving nepali people.
Then, How can they be labelled as a "political party"?????
we can live in corrupted society, but where peoples are killed just because they have different political thinikings, How can we dare to live in that soceity ????
huh
Posted
on 12-May-02 07:47 PM
aoists are the number one opposer of Us aid. Easy to understand.
Indian are very suspicious to Us aid because it could lesson their role in nepal. More US aid means less dependency of nepal over india.
If other countries USA, BRITAIN, China give more assistance to nepal, It may pressurize india not to allow hiding facility for maoist leaders in india.
Under normal situation also, 60% national budget of nepal is covered by international aid and loan. Of course we don't like to be dependant on others, but we don't have other options at least still for some period of time because our revenue collection is very low and our tourism industry is virtually in collapsed condition. Industrial production, export business is badly affected by maoist violence.
USA as a close friend of nepal and have active role since the 1950's in foundation of very basic development like education, malaria eradication, basic health services, nepali people are grateful to them.
In addition to USA, our relationship with india, china, britain and other countries is also equally important to us. US aid to nepal could not be and must not be the bias of relationship with other friendly countries.
If our government is able to utilize US aid properly. I fully support it.
Nepali people can accept assistance and good will of any friendly countries what nepali people can not accept is foreign intervention or foreign army in our soil, but It is came to known that many foreigners(tamil or indian) are involved as a trainer in maoist's so called "PEOPLE'S WAR".
I heard that indian intelligence RAW is also not happy to US AID.
Sage
Posted
on 12-May-02 08:52 PM
I am also pleased to be discussing this. I think we all need to talk more, in nonconfrontational ways, and to learn about other peoples' viewpoints. This is my idealistic outlook, perhaps.
What I mean about Li Onesto is that I have read her reports, trying to get more information, but it is very clear that she is wholly sympathetic to the Maobadi, so the information will be biased FOR the Maobadi.
On the other hand, the information in the "establishment" press is usually biased AGAINST the Maobadi. It is very rare to find a piece that not very biased.
This does not mean I support the Maobadi -- their actions speak for themselves. However, sensationalist reporting won't help work for peace, I think.
I am reading an article in Himal magazine at this website: http://www.himalmag.com/2002/april/essay.htm
It is very long but very informative, I think.
I find it very interesting and I wonder what you or anyone else thinks about how it describes the failure of the truce and the negotiations in November. I wonder if the Maobadi truly wanted to negotiate, and why they pulled out from the talks. Also, did the sarkar truly want to negotiate, or was it just trying to stall the Maobadi?
Peace. Sage
huh
Posted
on 12-May-02 11:58 PM
how can you say that all the reports of established newspapers must be biased? Even if they could be true. Your such kind of view could not bring you to the right conclusion.
HahooGuru
Posted
on 13-May-02 12:28 AM
Sage's site is bullshit. Copy of others work without paying a penny against royalty. He does not have right to modify others works to make it original. He should be charged against plagariasm.
He is Nepal, pretending to be non-Nepali, to justify his gross negligence. He is bullshitting, by thinking that writing Robert, Michael, Clinton ....Bush as his his name, will be respected by Nepalis. Don't pretend, Mr. Coward.
His site is full of profanity, and trying to confuse some innocent peoples who don't have enough knowledge on Nepal. He said he was in Nepal, (he was borned in Nepal), he pretends that he played with Maoists (in fact, he is a Maoist supporter Nepali) , he says that his site is balanced, where do you find balanced contents. You copied others articles and put with different color as if own.
You are like other Human rightists organization, who claim to be human rightists, but, never touch the inhuman things done by Maoists. You are trying to cash the issues in the form of research fund, (maximum possibility of your). You will compile all the discussions here and put as report. Wow, and publish in your university or some papers, and you will tell your readers that you did a questionnaire survey via Internet. You will claim that so and so many peopels responded.
You should not forget to write that I called you "Idiot, coward, bullshit". That is the conclusion out of your website or your homePAGe.
Bye. HG
Sage
Posted
on 13-May-02 07:56 AM
To address Huh, all I mean is that I read all reports critically, and I take note of the tone of the reports and which facts are left out and which are included. Sometimes, for example, you can see an AP story and then another one 3 or 4 minutes later, and if you compare the two stories you will find only one sentence left out in the new one. It may be a relevant sentence but it makes Chavez look too good, or it does not vilify the Maoists enough, or something like this. That is what I mean by bias.
I believe that if you DON'T read critically, THEN you will be misled.
=====
Now to addess HahooGuru...
I don't know where to start except to say that you are completely wrong. Of course, how can you be sure to trust me? But you certainly don't present any evidence for others to belive you.
Indeed, I am not Nepali-born and I stated this just so I am not posing as a Nepali citizen on this GBNC board. That would be wrong to misrepresent myself.
My site is a collection of current news about the conflict, with links to all the original sources. There is a provision of copyright law called "Fair Use" which allows quoting of news stories, large portions of books, ariticles, etc. if it is to be used for nonprofit use, such as educational or news analysis etc, as long as the sources are cited properly.
On the contrary to what you say, my site is NOT to confuse people who know little about Nepal. My site is to provide more depth and many more points of view for those people who ONLY hear about Nepal on the AP stories and on NPR by Daniel Lak... I think it is very much needed.
As for money, I get no money for anything related to this. This is not a business. This is a labour of love.
Full of "profanity" -- what do you mean by this? Do you mean you cannot allow the presentation of the multiple points of view and trust people to decide for themselves what they think?
Anyway, I think you are having a bad day and you must be in a bad mood. Please try to reconsider, and if you have real advice for the site, let me know. That's why I posted here anyway.
Sage
Nepali2
Posted
on 13-May-02 08:29 AM
Hey, Sage
you are a peace of shit.... terrorist, Supporter of terrorist also counts as a terrorist.
huh
Posted
on 13-May-02 08:33 AM
in addition to yahoo, bbc etc. websites, I have been regularly visiting maoist websites also.
Don't think yourself you are the only one who read the news critically.
You are showing your interest to know more about nepal's maoist war and saying that you want to know the real things and help to solve the problem.
but think yourself, we, nepali are real suffering people from this so called "people's war". You may say that we are not reading news not critically, bUT my father tells me that what is happening there? my friends tell me that what is going there? do you think they are also biased ??????? do you think they also propoganda machines??? do you think their story of suffering is also totally false, Please don't try to misled other peoples with your biased thinings anymore?????
In my village, They told me that they have to pay maoist regularly,have to feed huge crowd of maoist. My family have to suffer also from this so called maoist war. they have been looting food grains from poor's house by using force.do you think what they are saying also to be understood ina critical away like news of yahho, bbc????? They are telling true sufferings. do you think all of these villagers are making false story???? I have spent more than 15 years there. don't try to convince me anymore that you just visited the maoist village once upon a time and played volleyball with them.
huh
Posted
on 13-May-02 08:44 AM
Maoist have blown up all of telephone repeater stations so that I can call to my home. Sage, do you think to understand such kind of sufferings also require critical thinkings???? may be you are informed through so called human rightists, but it is the suffering of me, my family, my villagers. it does not require any false propoganda. I think , not necessary to tell you anymore about maobadis now.
ddeykegarne
Posted
on 13-May-02 12:09 PM
thanks to everyone who took "sagenepal" to task. if you'd like to see this person in action, go to just about any recent nepal-related article posted on yahoo.com and check out the message board.
as for the "suspicious" murder of king birendra, EXACTLY which eyewitness account does s/he find suspicious? gorakh's? what a complete load of ....
please, SOMEONE in the boston area, please attend that south asian center event and challenge sagenepal's loyalties and arguments.
Sage
Posted
on 13-May-02 12:26 PM
I am sorry if I have been arrogant to think I know too much. It is very possible. I am in a very strange terrain, not being rooted in Nepal like a person who is born there, but also caring very much and having friends. I also cannot call people to know if they are okay. I also am worried to write letters from the US because authorities may think it is suspicious when someone receives a letter from a US name. I also speak with people who tell me what is happening and that people are extorted and that people are tortured -- I see all this in the news too. Please understand me. When I say the press is biased, I mean in the same way the US press is biased -- it is systematic bias in favor of the controlling interests of the society. In the current events in Nepal, I think it can be detrimental to chances for peace because it polarizes people into hatred instead of seeing a clearer picture. But then neither do I see a clearer picture -- I am not saying I have more information than anyone here. I have less, I think. But yes, indeed, I was in a village when the maobadi came and I played volleyball and played guitar and spoke with them as human beings, even though they are maobadi. Trying to undertsand more and see where they were coming from. Also they were not the leadership, who I would be very afraid of -- they were young people who had joined. This is before September 11 and before the horrible atrocities had occurred in Nepal (but after the palace massacre).
So about the palace massacre, I see it as suspicious. This is only my opinion and I don't have some conspiracy theory. I only said it is 'suspicious'. It is very very strange one has to admit, what happened. Very tragic and sad.
For people who call me a piece of shit, I am sorry to offend you so much. I don't mean to bring up such anger or negative emotions. That is not my purpose here and i think it may be best if I just do not continue in this dialogue. Maybe for only a short time more. I thought I would learn some things, and I have learned some things. I have learned how polarized and emotional this is, and how people are unable to talk without assuming other people are terrorists if they raise questions.
I repeated over and over that I was NOT supporting the maobadi -- I would have to be horrible and stupid to do that, given what I have heard about their actions. I am very much opposed to what they are doing and it must stop. But then how to stop a guerrilla movement? The USA thinks it has the answer, and Deuba is in line with the USA, being of the same class and mindset, somewhat. But is this the best way to peace given the logistics and the mindset of maobadi rank and file? I do not know. I have been trying to read and understand.
About what I have posted in the Yahoo News chat rooms -- I have been learning and learning about this conflict and my thoughts have changed, but I have consistently been trying mainly to raise questions about the authenticity of the news reports, about the motives behind US involvement, and about how is the best way to achieve peace. There is also the question of oil in Nepal, which is only a fact that I raised. I did not make accusations, but only raised questions. If this makes me a terrorist then only a most obedient unquestioning citizen is not a terrorist. It is very sad if we have come to that point.
So, I one again apologize for upsetting people so much. I never meant to do this. I did not know it would be like this. I am trying to work for peace and I wanted advice but then I get so many accusations.
Sage
li onesto revealed
Posted
on 13-May-02 12:50 PM
"li onesto" is a FAKE name of a communist propagandist (if i had to guess, i'd say cuban or FARC wannabe). if the name were listed last name first, then first name, it would read:
Onesto, Li
smush it all together, minus the comma, and you get:
Onestoli or "One" "Stoli" ("Stoli" is the slang term for stolichnaya brand vodka.)
as in "one shot (peg) of stolichnaya brand vodka"
you connect the rest of the dots...and someone please go on wednesday, take a picture of sagenepal, and post it here. PRETTY please!
dilman
Posted
on 13-May-02 01:41 PM
Dear Sage, I am interested in joining the South Asia Center talk program you mentioned in this thread. Could you be kind enough to tell me where and when it is taking place? Thank you, Dilman
huh
Posted
on 13-May-02 01:52 PM
from maoist propoganda site:
We strongly encourage you to contribute and participate the New democratic revolution in Nepal and to promote the true information. How can you help and contribute in the transformation process of old society to new, please write your suggestion to International Nepal Solidarity Forum with : E-mail: insof@gmx.net _________________________________ FROM SAGE NEPAL:
Please remember to visit the website listed at the end, and there are also email lists you can join if you want.
(soon to become nepalsolidarity.net -- I have bought the URL.) ______________________ what's a surprise !!!
Sage
Posted
on 13-May-02 03:33 PM
Okay, this is the last time I am responding to Huh's comments because I don't have time to continue defending against empty accusations, when it falls on deaf ears.
Anyway, there is no affiliation between the Nepal Solidarity Network and that other thing you mentioned, which I never heard of before. By "solidarity" I mean solidarity with the *people* of Nepal, not the Maobadi. You obviously have a very different interpretation of what this would mean, but you are not all Nepali people, and neither do I think all Nepali people, like any people, want the same thing. So it's a judgment call what it means, but it is not solidarity with the maobadi. Let me be clear on that and please stop trying to dig up dirt that is not there, and fling empty accusations to satisfy something in yourself. I don't know what you're all about, but I am here to have dialogue on the conflict and work toward solutions, and you're not here for that, it seems. Disagreement is one thing, but whatever is on your agenda is another thing.
huh
Posted
on 13-May-02 05:29 PM
As you mentioned in your previous posting above, You said that you want to know more about the current maoist rebellion. I never accused that you must be also maoist but you should have patience to hear the voice of peoples suffering from maoist violence,
What I am expressing here are all of my sincere feelings. All of my posting here is neither to support government's weakness nor maoist violence. Corruption, social injustice and poverty are the big problems of nepal and government efforts are not enough or it has done little on it. I am also one of the frustrated one with present political leadership of nepal but I can not lose our freedom to determine our future and our country in our own hand in the name of maoist dictatorship.
What I said above is only to make you clear that there are also many true stories which you may think that they are only biased things or something like that. I wonder how you will reach at a right conclusion only with those information which you have got through your links(website or people?). I don't know why expression of painful experince of me, my villagers could be irritable to you? I wonder that how expression of my sincere feelings here could be some "agenda". As a believer of democracy, I respect your right to have disagreement with me .I had patience to discuss with you till now in spite of your repeated opinions but If you are trying to find solution of this conflict you must have patience to hear those opinions which may not be like your expectations.
whole Intention of my above posting were to make me more clear about your thinkings and to share my personnel opinions with you.
There is nothing to do for me accusing other persons and or I could be satisfied accusing other persons.
I would like to extend my best wishes to them who are sincerely trying to find the truth and seeking the right solution.
Biswo
Posted
on 13-May-02 07:08 PM
Hi Sage:
I took some time to reach your site and read the materials posted there. It was informative, but as you could clearly see, it was a mishmash of grossly biased views.
I appreciate it very much if you present balanced views in your future website, if you try to collect evidences of tortures and war crimes comitted by both sides in warfare. I am of the opinion that those who commit crime against humanity should be brought to justice, whether they are from military or from Maoists.
I understand that Maoists tactics are blantantly odious. Forceful enlisting of high school kids, summary execution of the so called informants etc., to name a few. I also understand that Nepalese media are now totally supportive of military. I don't think it is because of fear of military,though. It is because people have had enough of this rebellion. Schools were regularly closed, factories were burnt, kids were burnt alive, villages were terrified, telephone towers/hydroelectric projects were destroyed, and people just wanted to get rid of this scourge of rebellion.
So, I don't encourage you to affront those murdered by glorifying the murderers if you intend to do so, but I hope that is not your intention. If your intention is to collect evidences of military and police and rebellion atrocities committed against poor and innocent people of villages, please go ahead. I encourage you very much.
Sage
Posted
on 13-May-02 08:03 PM
Thank you for your comments Biswo.
I know that it is a mishmash of opposing viewpoints -- this was my intention, to present many viewpoints and let readers see the many different voices. I could not find any central site with all these things, and I took so long to find all of them. Because the AP and Reuters are so easy to find, it may tend to include the more opposing viewpoints, like the Christian Science Monitor story and the Guardian story. But there is the story that the Red Cross is going to go into the area at Gam and assess the Maoist atrocities and treatment of prisoners and civilians, and there are many other stories including Maobadi crimes. Also, the human rights sites all talk about the Maobadi crimes, especially INSEC-Nepal who I respect very much.
I am trying to expose other angles of this conflict. There is no way I am glorifying the murderers. I am so surprised by the reactions here, and like I said before I am truly sorry to cause such emotions in people. I have friends who are affected personally and I am affected because I worry about friends in Nepal every day, but I also cannot know what it is like to have a friend or family member murdered.
But in every society there are going to be different points of view, and in my role as a US citizen, I also experience this same polarization. I was against the bombing of Afghanistan after September 11, because I knew it would kill more innocent people. And it did kill more innocent people than died in the World Trade Center attack. I still think this is a tragedy turned into a double tragedy, and that other ways to justice were available. But the US was arrogant and revengeful in its actions. So I think similarly in Nepal, in which there is great suffering. My point is that in the US I also got called so many names and called a "terrorist sympathizer" and such -- when god knows I was not sympathizing with Al Qaeda but rather with innocent Afghani people. Such is how it goes in such an emotional and painful conflict.
The conflict in Nepal is very different, I know, but there are similarities in that the people in power have two agendas -- to keep their own power, and to achieve peace. While the people who are most affected by the conflict, the people not in power, have only one agenda of peace.
Specifically, how would you change the website to present balanced views? Including the bombing of buses by Maobadi, and things like this? I will do this. My main problem is that reports are not first-hand, but based on police and army saying this or that. I will look for firsthand reports. Of course there is the INSEC website with extensive lists of such things.
I don't know what the point is anymore. I thought I could help work toward peace but instead I have offended so many people.
?
Posted
on 13-May-02 10:35 PM
sage It was very frustrating to see how blatantly u are trying to spread lies through your web sites. you pretend to be an unbiased sympathizer of Nepal and Nepali on GBNC board and cleverly disguise your maoist mothpiece like web site with the veil of human right activism. for example, you write in your web site on the front page
(The Prime Minister of Nepal met with President Bush on May 6 and asked for $20 million in support for crushing the rebels in the Nepali civil war. However, the government of Nepal has been in blatant violation of human rights for years and in the recent months this has gotten much worse, with scores of journalists jailed for practicing journalism, and thousands of Nepali civilians in detention on only the vaguest of charges. In the past week, nightly air strikes by the government (armed with night vision equipment from the US and Israel) have killed hundreds, many of whom are likely to be noncombatants. The Nepali Army and Police often kill people they suspect to be involved in the rebellion without the slightest pretension to any judicial process. Many concerned scholars and activists who are watching the situation report that US "support" is not likely to do anything but add to the body count. There are growing indications that U.S. imperial interests may be at the heart of the U.S. "solution" to the conflict -- see the this page, and this StratFor analysis for more on that.)
I think in the absence of any quotes the whole paragraph very clearly speaks of your mind and shows how ridiculously and disgustingly(!) biased you are. Dint your conscience get suffocated when your mind was busy in threading all those words to demoralize whole nepali sentiments who are fighting against these terrorists. How can you become blind to all those incidents of rampant killing of civillians, teachers, children, farmers: excecution , mass murder..destruction of little bit of infrastructure that was built after the restoration of democracy, arson.....list goes on.There are already enough maoist propaganda sites. What i personally hate is when people play with words to hide the hyppocracy. If you are a sympathizer, then why dont u let your self speak freely? I will just ignore your site.I think its also a crime against humanity when people like you misguide or try to misguide a bunch of ignorant mass by glorifying and sensationalizing the murderers, in the name of human right. My only request is dont disguise.This is not the first time that history has witnessed a megalomaniac, psychopath blood sucker. I think when you sympathize such megalomaniac then you are indirectly contributing in his crime. None of the rules of the world can penalize such an indirect yet inhumane act, however when it comes to introspecting yourself you will realize how unfair and shameful your attemps were. Please stop this propaganda.
Pertaining to your lame excuse that you are trying to understand Nepal, If you really are who you say, then remember these basic things 1. Nepal has a multiparty democracy system. Every one has a right to stand in the election and get elected. Those people who want to serve people can rule the country and even change the constitution(except four basic things) if they have public support in the amount they claim they have.
2 It is states responsibility to implement laws and proved its citizen with secure life. Those who are dissidents of the system can always go to people in a peaceful way> Nepal constitution guarentees this fundamental right.When you raise an arm and unilaterally withdraw from possibilities of peaceful restoration and get carried away by cheap utopian dreams of a megalomaniac, and start killing people and police and army how many options a government will have? when someone is confronting you with bullet, there are only two possibilitieleft- fight or flight . Everyone knows there have been injustice to the Arab population in terms of US policybut does that justify sep 11? How can a healthy human being justify holocaust? I accept the prevalence of prejudice and corruption rampant in Nepal. But Is prachanda path the solution? No. IS killing in Name of PP justify the backwardness we have suffered from time immemorial-NO. Atleast based on history we can be hopeful of Nepal's future by democratic govenance. But where will we land after this death and destruction envisioned by pranchanda and Baburam? The large exodus of youth from nepali village to nearby indian towns and other countries have already shown a dark future of Nepal-Nepal on the heap of corpses just waiting to die. And you and people like you will be morally responsible for that. Let Non maoist live and breath peacefully in Nepal, will u?
?
Posted
on 13-May-02 10:52 PM
please read IS killing in Name of PP justify the backwardness we have suffered from time immemorial-NO (In last para) as
does backwardness we have suffered from time immemorial-justify killing in Name of Prachand path? NO
After i posted the thread i discovered a lot of spelling and grammatical mistakes, but i am too lazy to correct them. sorry folks for the inconvinience.
HALDIRAM
Posted
on 14-May-02 09:15 AM
i agree that life is sacred . i agree that everyone has the right to live in peace and freedom. ironically, too much peace and freedom gives rise to the occassional devil dance, as reflected in the maobadi crisis in nepal, perhaps the devil wanted to have some fun.
the freedom of press was until before the emergency, enjoyed by all. even before the maobadi crisis, various papers and forums backed by major political parties existed, unfailingly criticizing all the other parties while applauding their own. except for the national dailies, anything and everything else went uncensored.
perhaps that was when and why the devil decided to have a ball , first by manipulating the very freedom of press, and then crippling the peaceful country by and by. whether the devil lies within the borders of nepal or not is another question worth debating.
anyway, the callous ways in which the maoists publicised their instant justice system didnt go unnoticed in the eyes of the weary village people constantly taunted and mauled by their village lords. suddenly nightfall and darkness became an ally helping them overcome their fear, one which would again resurface as daylight came. revenge, vengeance, what were once distant dreams sudd enly seemed so close, so appealing.
although nepal can be summed up to be only a few thousand miles lengthwise or widthwise, within those few thousand miles lie more than hundreds of thousands of people living life below poverty lines. the rich ones arent any saints there. infact it is they who dont want the improvement in the poor peoples living conditions.
hence, came the trial and error.
one homicide incident involving a farmer killing his landlord in one village in far eastern nepal would stir nothing physically along its western borders. but the currents of that farmers mental state will be felt by thousands at the other border who'd have thought about such harsh steps, yet not taken. all through the power of media- cheap newspapers shrieking VIOLENCE.
slowly but steadily, it gathered pace...
bhayo
Posted
on 14-May-02 09:30 AM
alright, folks, time to let the sagacious one go lick his wounds. it'll give him time to incorporate your feedback into his web site. frankly, i'm surprised that he was surprised at the reaction he got here--evidently your views were angles in this conflict that he failed to uncover previously. bhaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyo!
sage
Posted
on 14-May-02 12:48 PM
Look, I obviously started out on the wrong foot here. I should not have introduced myself with a news release about oil interests in Nepal. Although that is part of the situation, it is not the whole thing. I had just written that for some activist lists of US activists who follow US imperial interests. One thing a good writer should do is to know the audience.
But even starting on the wrong foot, I learned a lot from this dialogue, and not in the way I expected. I guess that's why they call it learning. So I am richer.
I was sort of licking my wounds, yes, but I also have to figure what I am hearing here is not the whole spectrum of opinion of the Nepali community, just like my opinions on US politics are far different from most people in the US. There's always a range and I am at a radical fringe so I am used to taking a lot of heat. Yet I think it is important to provide alternative information for people to make their own decisions.
I went back and moved a few things around on my website. If you had seen it you would have known that the top story is the AP story on the Red Cross going to Gam to investigate Maobadi crimes there including use of human shields. That was there before when everyone was saying that I ignore Maobadi crimes. Also in the Nepalnews digests, there are many Maobadi incidents reported as usual. Then there are two reports on government security forces crimes as well. If these are occurring then how can we ignore them in good conscience? These are human lives at stake and NOBODY deserves to be killed in this way whether or not we have to 'rally behind our government' -- this is not an open license to kill people on no grounds or even on suspicion. How can we let the army or police be judge and executioner all in one when it is not a combat situation. So I still think it is VERY important to publicize these things. Finding the balance is the hard part maybe. It is also matter of opinion and disposition.
So I am continuing and I thank everyone who gave me advice in good intentions, and I am sorry to offend other people but sometimes offending people may be necessary when discussion is necessary on painful issues.
Sage
Biswo
Posted
on 14-May-02 01:14 PM
Dear Sage:
I , as I said in the past, encourage you to find out the proofs of atrocities committed against innocent civilians by militaries and police if you have such sources. See, no military expedition, no emergency declaration gives any pretext for any colonel or major to kill innocent civilians, and those who commit such crimes need to be brought to justice. We didn't send army to villages to kill innocent people. This thing should be clear.
Re Maoist atrocities, it is redundant to say anything about that. They are savages. Somedays ago, I read this quotation in probably New York Times Review of Books of Heinrich Heine, "When they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings." In our case, it is the other way. They have burnt human beings, and now they are burning books.(Mahendra Sanskrit University vandalism!)
We have difference of opinion, but even if you are a radical, even if you are a totally Maoist supporter (this is IF), you will do a great favor to all of us by documenting proofs of atrocities committed against innocent civilians by security forces if there are any. I don't think RNA is committing any such crimes, but police had committed such crimes in the past,and I think we , all democrats, will lose in such case.Those who kill innocent civilians are criminals, and I think they should be brought to justice whenever it is possible.
Sage
Posted
on 14-May-02 01:16 PM
To ?
I hear what you are saying. It does not fall on deaf ears and I thank you for taking the time to write your reactions.
You say: "It was very frustrating to see how blatantly u are trying to spread lies through your web sites. you pretend to be an unbiased sympathizer of Nepal and Nepali on GBNC board and cleverly disguise your maoist mothpiece like web site with the veil of human right activism."
But again this is not a maoist mouthpiece -- at least it is not the intention. Criticizing the government actions might be seen as supporting the Maoists but this is not my intention at all. I also did not like my own tone -- it was very badly written. Sometimes I get too caught up and I write very poorly. So I have changed the language to this:
"The Prime Minister of Nepal met with President Bush on May 6 and asked for $20 million in support for crushing the Maoists. While the Maoists are guilty of horrific crimes against humanity, human rights groups also report that the Nepali government has been at fault, engaging in summary executions and other inhumane tactics. Freedom of press is currently limited in Nepal, and almost 100 journalists have been jailed for practicing journalism in recent months. Neither journalists nor human rights observers are allowed to visit the sites of most encounters to investigate what happened. Air strikes by the government (armed with night vision equipment from the US and Israel) may have killed many people who are likely to be noncombatants. Many concerned scholars and activists who are watching the situation are alarmed by these reports and the implications of supporting a state that treats international conventions on human rights with impunity. There are also indications that U.S. oil and imperial geopolitical interests may be playing a part in the U.S. policy toward Nepal.
"Please personalize and send this letter in opposition to US military support for the government of Nepal without other measures designed to achieve a true and just peace, and to protect civil liberties in Nepal and to guard against abuse of power by the security forces."
About your points numbered 1 and 2, I come from a perspective where I see that even democratic states (in the sense of having a parliament) -- such as the United States, for example, or Nepal since the advent of multiparty democracy -- still does not represent the people fully. Many special interests (meaning those with a lot of money and those who control industries) end up controlling a lot of the meaningful policy. I hold the US Congress as much to blame for this as Nepal's parliament. So in this sense, the presence of a state maintaining law and order and parliamentary representation are not full guarantees of a good system. It is clear to see how energy interests control the US policy on a lot of issues. Could not the same be true of Nepal, in terms of major interests and the involvement of the World Bank and Asian Development Bank and IMF and privitization programs etc.? Maybe the CPN-UML has positions against such things but has it been put into action?
Lastly, you wrote, "Everyone knows there have been injustice to the Arab population in terms of US policybut does that justify sep 11?" --- My reply is no, of course not. It was a horror and tragedy, but then also the US response in Afghanistan was another horror and tragedy added to it, but we don't see it because it is so far away and CNN doesn't run pictures of bombs hitting Afghan villages every 10 minutes like it ran the World Trade Center tapes. So it is a matter of perspective.
But you have made me reflect on the language of the website "Action Alert" so I thank you.
$$
Posted
on 14-May-02 04:50 PM
Sage,
As you said that.....
................where I see that even democratic states (in the sense of having a parliament) -- such as the United States, for example, or Nepal since the advent of multiparty democracy -- still does not represent the people fully. Many special interests (meaning those with a lot of money and those who control industries) end up controlling a lot of the meaningful policy. I hold the US Congress as much to blame for this as Nepal's parliament. So in this sense, the presence of a state maintaining law and order and parliamentary representation are not full guarantees of a good system. .......
Then why not begin to raise voice for reform of multiparty democracy in USA also ???
If there will be reform in multiparty system of USA to make it better, It will help rest of the world to make necessary change of their poltical system also .
You are the American citizen, So it is your duty to raise awareness about the reform of political system of USA among american people.
Best of luck for you !!!!
sumira
Posted
on 14-May-02 05:49 PM
Message Sage, I am not a american-born but I love the USA very much I have many USA friends there. I want to know about the political system of USA, but I have little knowledge of it. If you help me to know about how the the american democracy is working there so thatI will have some idea to improve our(nepal) democracy also.
I want your comments and inputs I get, There is also email address of me you can join if you want
In hope of your answer sumira, sumira_joshi@hotmail.com
Amherst
Posted
on 17-May-02 07:51 PM
its is so interesting that people find the information that sage has put out as "ONE-SIDED" while no one has even mentioned about how "ONE SIDED" our mainstream media has been, why does eveyone feel so threatened by a view that is "different"? sage thank you for putting up the website. i hope people like us "US based previledged" nepalis can at least talk about this issue more from the center. i support your cause for challenging people to think outside of the box. in solidarity, amherst.
huh
Posted
on 27-May-02 01:01 AM
from sage's website,
Useful materials:
Sample letter:
Hello.
I am writing in opposition to U.S. support for the current government of Nepal, under the rule of King Gyanendra and Prime Minister Deuba.
As of May 22, 2002, the Nepali parliament was dissolved by royal and ministerial decree. This government is not even a nominal democracy at this time.
The state of emergency that has been in effect for 6 months now, and will continue at least 6 more months, is criminal. It limits freedoms in ways that we would never consider doing in the U.S.A., even in such a dire situation. People are arrested for journalism -- for the content of their reportage. People are being executed summarily by the government security forces -- when they could be taken prisoner and given a trial or at least a semblance of justice. All of this has been well documented by human rights groups, including Amnesty International and INSEC-Nepal.
I think it is very irresponsible for the U.S. to support a regime such as this, without demanding democratic standards of governance. Otherwise such support is simply a Machiavellian calculus without regard for ideals that the U.S. proclaims to stand for.
I have followed the situation closely and I have seen what works and what doesn't work. True dialogue gives people hope for peace. Action of the sort that the Nepali government is currently taking polarizes the issue and causes people to sympathize with the Maoists, and makes the prospects of peace more distant. This is shaping up to be a protracted war in which the neither "side" will win, and everyone -- especially the Nepali people -- will lose. More viable options are to seek a true peace through dialogue, and to address the underlying issues of economic inequality, gender oppression, caste/race oppression, and poor governance -- but not to fund an unjust war machine in vain.
[Personalize and sign.]
_____________________________________________
[As a scholar/student/traveller who has spent XXX time in Nepal doing XXX, I observed/am particularly worried about/would like to tell you about XXX.]
We believe that the US should use its considerable influence in Nepal and the international community to push for a negotiated diplomatic solution to the conflict. We join responsible voices in the Nepali media and human rights communities in calling for a peaceful solution that acknowledges the deep-seated historical roots of the conflict and advocates disarmament and community-based development instead of increased militarization. We strongly urge that the US reconsider its position on military aid, and invest instead in brokering a diplomatic solution.
Senate: We ask that you review the human rights documentation from Nepal and oppose the proposed military funding to Nepal in the 2002-2003 Appropriations bill.
House: We ask that you review the human rights documentation from Nepal and oppose the proposed military funding to Nepal in the 2002-2003 Appropriations bill.
President: We ask that you explore peaceful alternatives in your discussions with Prime Minister Deuba next week and raise the issue of human rights abuses.
Secretary of State: We hope that based on your recent experiences in Nepal, you will reconsider the long-term effects of increased militarization in Nepal explore alternative diplomatic roles for the US.
We would be happy to discuss these issues with you further or provide any additional information.
Sincerely,
YOUR NAME
Concerned Scholars and Students for Nepal
Your Institutional Affiliation
Your Address and Email
_____________________________________________
why is he doing all these things ?
huh
Posted
on 27-May-02 01:04 AM
Cornell Sample Letter
Please find below a sample letter opposing US military aid to Nepal that was drafted at Cornell on May 1.
There are a number of points to make about this:
- We realize that not everyone may agree with this position, and want to acknowledge the validity of different viewpoints. A critical mass did feel that it was important to take action in this way, but please do not feel pressured to join.
- If you wish to participate, please adapt this sample letter as you see fit, and feel free to discard any part of it and add anything else. It is just a guideline.
- Please personalize the letter as much as you like. You will see that there are certain parts in brackets where we suggest adding personal information about your own experiences in Nepal. Part of the objective here is to raise awareness among policy makers that there is a deeply committed constituency (however small) watching the Nepal situation, so any information you can include about your educational or professional relationship with the country will help. Also, we made the decision not to include particular statistics or anecdotes so as to keep the sample letter as general as possible, but please add any detailed information you feel is important here. The letter includes references to three of the major human rights reports available online -- please consult these if you would like further information for your own letter.
- Please direct the letter to the appropriate policy makers for your area. We recommend sending letters to all of the following: each of your Senators and Representatives, the President, and the Secretary of State. There is a separate line with a specific request for action relevant to each policy maker at the end of the letter -- please change this line appropriately for each letter. Mailing addresses for Ithaca area Senators/Reps are included below.
- Please send all of these as quickly as possible, but send letters to Bush first since he will be meeting with Prime Minister of Nepal Sher Bahadur Deuba on May 6. Although generally real letters seem to have more effect, you may wish to send Bush an email as well due to the tight timeframe: president@whitehouse.gov You can also send faxes or make phone calls if you wish to get through quickly.
- We used the term 'we' throughout the letter to suggest an organized group, which for the moment we are calling Concerned Scholars and Students for Nepal. Please feel free to use this title under your name or not as you see fit.
- Please send letters on institutional letterhead whenever possible.
- Please forward this to anyone you think may be interested, but stress that we are encouraging people to send personal letters. This is NOT an email petition.
- Please send any questions on this letter to ss364@cornell.edu
Thanks very much to all of you who put the effort into making this happen!
Concerned Scholars and Students for Nepal & Nepal Solidarity Network (from sage's website)
Kancha Kaji
Posted
on 27-May-02 10:13 AM
Sage has admitted that he is not a Maobadi. But how does one become a maobadi? Maobadi is the one that supports them and their cause. I see Sage is trying to do just that.
I see Sage's effort to voice the concerns as one sided and biased. Sage is vigorously advocating for the benefit of his site (?) or his views (?). Is this the marketing effort for his site? What does he want by putting the website on? What is his agenda behind the issue? It is hard for me to believe that he is advocating for the people of Nepal, is he another pretty face trying to benefit from the crisis of Nepal?
HahooGuru
Posted
on 27-May-02 06:40 PM
Kancha Kaji,
Your observation on Sage is exactly what Sage is trying to do. He is opportunist who is trying to get benefit out of crisis in Nepal. He is saying "He is not Maoist", but, his postings and his website is not proving that claim. He is great lier, and opportunist, nothing more, trying to get advantage over other's problem. Probably, he will collect all emails or postings published in this forum related to his postings and modify them to suit his need (when you summarize it, you can only pick up the things to suit your need), and put in a report form and submit to some donors and get huge sum of money to make his travel to Nepal a great success. When he returns from Nepal, he wil bring a collection a few shots and continue to build up his site and get more money. Finally, he becomes a big shot, doing nothing really productive, but, a long term plan of Mr. Sage.
HG
hugs not thugs
Posted
on 27-May-02 06:57 PM
if you guys/gals keep makin' me so darned proud every time you beat down that thugocracy phony baloney the saag-man keep peddling...i'm gonna need a hug! hey, doesn't cornell have a study abroad program in nepal? perhaps c.i.d. should do a little checkin' on 'em to make sure no tenured radicals are conducting activities unhelpful to the situation at hand.
NepaliChora
Posted
on 27-May-02 10:21 PM
I agree with all of you that are concerned about Sage's posting. I really appreciate the thoughts against a guy who is trying to benefit from the crisis of Nepal.
Another thought, if you look at the communist websites they all start with something to do with human rights. This can be one of the communist efforts as well.
Kancha Kaji
Posted
on 27-May-02 11:14 PM
HG,
Thank you for your thoughts. It sure feels good to know that I am not the only one concerned and people are aware of these types of phony activities.
Best Regards, KK
_sage_
Posted
on 28-May-02 12:00 PM
I am really saddened by the comments here. What can I do but to affirm that I have no interest in personal gain from the conflict. I have interest in the dignity and human rights of the people of Nepal. I also work for peace in other areas of the world, and I work against U.S. imperialism in its foreign policy, relating to Afghanistan, Central America, South America, and nearly everywhere else. I also do not sympathize with a government which treats human beings as cogs in a machine, to be used when convenient and killed when not convenient. I have little sympathy for a government that allows torture to be a continuous method of police work, and that is obviously corrupt and benefiting a few at the great cost of the many.
However, I also am scared by the dogmatism of the Maoists. Though I don't support the government, I am also alarmed by the hierarchy of the Maoists and the exaltation of the 'great' Prachanda, and the lack of clear statements refuting accusations against them (though there are some).
However another dimension is the class bias in the news which you are getting your storied from, and this is coloring the general public's view of the conflict as well. But we've been over this before.
Don't bother checking Cornell -- I am not there. They are a separate group of folks with -- can you get it through your mind? -- actual concerns about what the GOVERNMENT of Nepal is doing, without actually BEING Maoists? If you can hold 2 thoughts in your mind at once maybe you can understand this.
Watch out -- you are being dragged along by the media and those who control it. It's not uncommon. It's to be expected if only you realize the class bias of the media -- meaning, who controls it, who hires reporters and editors, and who blatantly censors it (in the case of Nepal).
Anyway, I have been out of town, but I categorically deny all the unfriendly accusations posted here, and I have better things to do than to be denying these accusations.
I am working for a better understanding of the conflict, and yes I sympathize with the desire for rebellion, but the actual path of the Maoists (1) alarms me and (2) I don't understand fully.
I will leave it at that for now.
huh
Posted
on 28-May-02 12:45 PM
sage, do you think only you have independant mind and rest of us are biased due to CNN/BBC like media? I and many others here always repeated here that what we are writing here are personnel feelings. do you think we have to edit some false stories to post here ? if we are posting like what you are blaming, for what benefit?????? please learn to respect other people's conscience also.
you said that you were in nepal many times and you also played voleyball with them, they were so nice,......., but if you are also human beings, you have to realize sufferings of nepali people due to maobadi war. May be you have sympathy for rebels, but do you think we want to see maoist who are also nepalis are being killed ? but who started to follow this path ? if you are also human beings of conscience, above discussions are enough for you. you should understand that these killings are more painful to nepali people than to you. many of my closed friends are involved in maoist war. do you think I as a friend of them want to see them killed? what you are raising some issues in the name of human rights and peace here is totally biased. If you are so much worried about human right violation in the world, please start from your country where blacks are repeatedly beaten in abrutal way by police. In our country, where some leaders who are known as a crusader for democracy and with great intellectual also do not have democratic culture and respect for human rights, do you expect 100% respect of human rights from them? of course our poeple, our police, our army has to learn many things, but how about so called 'great intellectual' baburam bhattarai and his guerillas????????????????? alive people are burnt in bus. poeple of different political opinions are beheaded. opposition political activist are skinned alive. if you are true human rightist, please raise first your voice against their barbaric acts. I know you will not raise against your voice effectively because you have to defend them raising " bhayanak swor" against goverrnment causualties. I respect those people's political opinions who disagrees me but there are some people who are afraid to support brautal actions of maoists directly and appear in 'nakkali anuhar". I am very ashamed of them.
I know how you will react my postings. If one of my sentence above has to be corrected a little your whole lengthy arguments will be for that sentence and you will maintain your eerie silence for other silence because your postings are with some vested interest. It is my conclusion after a long discussion with you although this sentence will be difficult to digest for you.
SAGE,please remember that this forum is not only for sharing political opinions, but we , nepalis from different places of the world also share our feelings(anger, sadness, frustration,worry,..) and informations. you as a human beings, please first try to understand the feelings of sajha visitors how painful to hear killing news of fellow nepalis for them. There is no necessary to teach more for us by any foreigners like you about human rights anymore." yauta nepaliko katha arko nepalile nai bujhchha" you should know.
huh
Posted
on 28-May-02 12:50 PM
I also talked with this SAGE through emails under different email addresses so I posted above stuff after conclusion of all discussions here and in emails.
_sage_
Posted
on 28-May-02 01:06 PM
Hello again. I will write very honestly. This is from memory because I can't see your post.
1. I work against police brutality in the U.S. very much. I write against it and I speak against it, have events against it, and against other forms of racism.
2. My response was against people who said I am working on the conflict in Nepal for personal gain, for money or fame or something. That was resentful and I won't spend any more time on it. It's just not true.
3. I understand this is emotional, more for you than me probably. I also have friends I consider as family in Nepal, in rural Nepal in areas affected by the conflict. I also have a very good friend of 6 years who was tortured in the jana andolan. I don't know anybody who was killed yet but I also don't know if they are okay because I can't call or send letters without arousing suspicion of receiving a letter from the USA in this time. But you are born in Nepal and have deeper roots than me. I understand.
4. However, after the attacks on September 11, I was in the US where I was born and I was working against the US government's response of bombing Afghanistan and killing another 3000 or 4000 innocent people there, in addition to the 3,200 innocent US people killed. But we don't even know how many people were killed in Afghanistan because "their" people are not worth as much as "ours"... and I also see the conflict as related to oil, and the US government as motivated and controlled by oil families and large corporations, not peace and human rights. So even when it was "my" own country, I was working against the government for deeper understanding.
5. I don't think I have better insight into anything than anyone else. I offer my thoughts as they are, for others to read and ignore or agree with. However, I am very critical of the media and whether they tell the truth or bias the news. It is pretty clear to me that the news is consistently biased in the favor of the government, and the government is biased in favor of the interests of a wealthy and powerful few. Not only in Nepal but governments in general, especially the US ("my own" government).
So this is where I stand, and I do not just take one sentence that I disagree with and say you're wrong. I probably missed some things you said but this is my consciousness.
I am also emotional about this, maybe in different ways from you but I am sad every day about needless suffering and exploitation of people by other people. It is only that I see the situation differently from you, but just like you I am saddened every day by the suffering and killings of any human -- maobadi, police, RNA, simple kishan, anybody -- they are all human beings with the miracle of a soul of consciousness in this world, and they are only different in terms of their beliefs about the world. However I don't see a path to peace from "Why don't we just all love each other" but more by understanding how power works and how those who hold power abuse other people, then fighting it. I mean this about the maobadi leaders as well as the government leaders.
I appreciate your words and I want to hear more please.
huh
Posted
on 28-May-02 01:26 PM
sage, you wrote,
......It is only that I see the situation differently from you.....
how and why do you concluded that I see the situation differently than you ????
I am against maoists means never could be supporter of social injustice, oppression, poverty and so on. You should know that I am also equally concerned with this issues and these issues most be solved in a satisfied manner, but violent acitivies such present maobadi 'gatibidhi' are not justifiable for me, never, never,.........
what we should require is more education among backward people/more opportunities in social/aconomic and other fileds.
.................. ..... I already posted somewhere about these things before.
sage hates nepal
Posted
on 28-May-02 01:45 PM
Sage's malarky only goes to prove that one cannot argue with a sick mind.
>Don't bother checking Cornell -- I am not there.
No one said you were/are. But you weren't really reading anyway.
>They are a separate group of folks with -- can you get it through your mind? --
Gee, no wonder just about everyone here's taking such a strong dislike to you. Evidently, though, you can't get it through your ate-up noodle.
actual concerns about what the GOVERNMENT of Nepal is doing, without actually BEING Maoists?
>nepal's business is actually none of yours, as you are not even a bikas pariyathak. as for western study abroad programs in nepal, i think they all warrant closer monitoring by hmg.
If you can hold 2 thoughts in your mind at once maybe you can understand this.
Oho, kasto ris ayo! ke bhayo, chora, timro aamaale timilai khelaunla dinu bhayeko chhaina, hai na ta??? Bichara!
HUH
Posted
on 28-May-02 01:46 PM
SAGE, then what could be the solution??? we are really waiting to know about your "solution". can you explain about your "solution" please??
how are you analysing whole nepali politics scenerio? hope your answer.
_sage_
Posted
on 28-May-02 01:56 PM
I don't mean to imply that you are in favor of social injustice. I don't think that. I think we have different elements of our understanding of the situation, only because we are different people with different histories and educations etc. I don't mean mine is better -- just different. Dialogue is for mixing, comparing, our understandings.
As for education, I agree that it is needed. But what kind of education, is a very important question for me. The rural Nepali people were held without education for a long period in history because king after king wanted to maintain power, and it is much easier to rule over an uneducated population who has never heard of ideas like democracy or people's sovereignty, and who never develop a sense of their own voice or importance, but always feel inferior to those who can read (which seems like a mystical skill they'll never attain).
But how much different is the current SLC system in government schools? How much do they allow children to develop their own voice and sense of importance in the world? How much to they serve to make a lot of people think they are inferior because they don't enjoy the education, and therefore cannot excel? How much does it promote critical thinking, and how much is it about rote memorization? How much of the social studies curriculum is about indoctrinating young people with the myths about Nepal as a place of peaceful coexistence among the different castes and the king and the people, and other hierarchies?
I don't say this only about Nepal. My own education in government schools in the US was the same. The social studies books told the myths about the US being the land of the free and the best country on earth, in which people live harmoniously and the rich were generously supporting the poor, and things like that.
So I support the need for education, but with care about the content of the education. I have seen more recent government school books and they are a little better than the previous ones but not so much better.
Also I don't think the problem is only with "backward" rural people -- I see this as "blaming the victim" by those in power. It is those in power who have the opportunity to design a better education system. But it is also possible for rural people to design their own education system, if only they were not required to use the government books and then to pass the SLC after grade 10. I think the SLC exam is a very harmful system, a lot like the SAT in the US but even worse. It is the "all or nothing" judge of a person's worth. But what does it measure? I think it mainly measures the ability to memorize a lot of things.
So I think that there is a need for more education but also a need for less oppression, and then the education can spring up by itself, if the SLC system is changed or abandoned.
I think this is a good dialogue even if it is off the topic of the maobadi.
parsley rosemary n thyme
Posted
on 28-May-02 02:27 PM
Just curious, Sage. Are you:
1) A Spart or an American Maoist (sorry, I forgot the names of the various Maoist parties, I just remember they had the cool banners at all the protests I used to go to);
or,
2) Just someone whose identity is formed around being a radical?
Either way, you can have my old Refuse and Resist T-shirts. I've grown up. Pass them on when you grow up, too. They're pretty fun.
Sage is someone who would have rationalized Hitler and Pol Pot, and probably did rationalize the Shining Path. All revolutionaries are basically cool, right, Sage? Cuz they're helping the poor and oppressed, right? And it's oh-so-important to point out that the government is mean, too, right?
Sure. Real mean, trying to keep people from being slaughtered and Nepal from falling out of the control of the merely power-hungry incompetents (who head it now) and into the hands of the power-hungry and bloodthirsty dictators (who would head it under Maoist rule and who do, in fact, terrorize the countryside. Like, for instance, my own village.)
I wish your simplistic analysis were true. I also wish I didn't have to worry about my relatives being skinned alive or forced into being human shields for the Maoists. Cuz the thing about the Maoists is they talk real nice. So do all the political parties. So did Pol Pot, I suppose. But as Shakespeare said, words ain't actions.
Dialogue??? Um. Yeah. Sure. It would help, though, if the other side of the table would potentially be occupied by someone who had a goal other than absolute, non-negotiable power at all costs. (Isn't it inconvenient when revolutionaries aren't nice? Waahhh, back in college, I always thought they kind of WERE nice, deep down inside! Reality is a bummer.)
"Nepal Solidarity Network"??? HAHAHAHA. Solidarity with what? Some imagined self-image as a radical? Certainly not with the ordinary people of Nepal.
Sage
Posted
on 28-May-02 06:10 PM
To so-called "sage hates nepal" -- yes, my tone was not so 'nice' in that post, and I had a tinge of regret after I posted it for the "if you can hold 2 thoughts in your head" BUT realize that people were implying -- no not implying, but saying -- that I was doing this for my own personal benefit -- which I find a bit odious as well. Unfounded accusations intended to hurt someone not even known to them. And it gets old having to repeat "Though I am criticizing the government it is not an implied support for the Maoists." It gets very old.
To "Parsley" --
1. If you don't believe in "dialogue" why bother being here, other than for purposed of gratifying your ego. I am here to learn, if anything. Otherwise I would be out doing something more pleasant.
2. They are called "Spartacus Youth" and no, I have nothing to do with them or any other 'Maoist' group in the states -- and besides, what does my affiliation, if any, have to do with the content of what I might say.
3. I am looking at the world in its complexity and saying that people don't have to exploit people. Class analysis has a lot to do with that -- being about money and power inequalities and the ways they play out in the real world. However I think it is more complex that the Maoist, Marxist, Leninist, or any other fixed system calls it. I think those three, and many others, have a lot of relevant insight into class dynamics but there is a lot more, and no one person understands everything.
4. Perhaps some of my 'identity' is formed around being a radical, but I watch out for that and I think I am successful in keeping my ego out of it.
5. I would never have rationalized a Hitler or a Pol Pot, nor am I rationalizing the Maobadi in Nepal right now. Fascist rhetoric, racist rhetoric, rhetoric of "purification", is anathema to liberation. On the contrary, I am very wary of the Maobadi, on those grounds and others. I am looking for answers and I don't believe everything in the news completely at face value.
6. As you say, words ain't actions. But apply this to the government as well as the Maoists. Governments, as do other parties, use information as part of warfare and social control. Governments lie. This is a fact, shown time and time again. When news is from state run sources, and mainstream sources in a censored social context -- are they trustworthy? I think it's more complex than "that side bad, this side good" -- and I think the Maobadi (and others) have a lot of valid criticism of the Nepali government. I also think the Nepali state has used repressive measures in the past and this is coming full circle and backfiring now.
7. If you don't believe in dialogue, then what else is there? It's either that or warfare. But true dialogue is hard to come by.
To huh -
I'd love to be working on the solution. But who am I to say what it is -- through grassroots democracy, local democracy, people can decide for themselves what they want and need, and then work from there. I've worked with a village in Nepal and I am greatly wanting to continue this on a new basis of "horizontal solidarity" -- in other words, not assuming that the "first world" is on the path and the "third world" needs to catch up, but on the basis of a more true dialogue. Anyway, I think there are as many "solutions" as there are people, but what is holding them from blooming is the repressive capture of possibility by agents like the World Bank and ADB and the government of Nepal and its top-down 5 yeqar plans and VDCs... but this is only the start of the dialogue.
HahooGuru
Posted
on 28-May-02 06:38 PM
Sage wrote: I am really saddened by the comments here. What can I do but to affirm that I have no interest in personal gain from the conflict.
HahooGuru
Posted
on 28-May-02 06:38 PM
This is a public forum. You should know how to walk in the public and if you try to be oversmart and walk naked like in emperors cloth, that you expect everyone to agree with you, then, you will find "Hahahahahah .... on your postings, nothing more". When you walk in public you should be able to convince public that you are alright. But, here in this forum we smelled something else. Now, you are suffering from your own wrong postings. Go and see yourself in front of a mirror. Its time to revisit yourself and come up next time with better face and clothes, so that your new avatar is acceptable to public. One thing you should remember that public do not criticize handicapped peoples, but, they will not leave peoples who use Mask and try to pose differently. You have failed with your current Avatar "Mask".
I wish you understand what I mean. HG
Sage
Posted
on 28-May-02 08:03 PM
I think I understand what you mean, but you are wrong. I am being honest, not using an avatar. I'm not pretending. I haven't "failed" if I have learned something and others have learned something. This isn't a popularity contest and I'm not a politician. Why is this even about me, instead of the actual issues at hand, such as people being killed in Nepal. Yes personal accusations upset me briefly but in the long run it's nothing, but to those who lose their lives in the conflict, these accusations are just a waste of time. If you disagree with me then please do so, as you have in the past. Great. I listen and consider what you say and then I reply and you reply, and this is dialogue, in earnest to try to share understandings and figure out the situation. But why personal attacks and theories about my psychology - is it relevant? Maybe it is but then I am just missing the point.
NepaliChora
Posted
on 28-May-02 08:28 PM
Sage,
I understand why you do not like some of the comments, but I standby it.
Once I evaluated your website and your postings it become evident that you are trying to accomplish something (?) and you unsuccessfully try to convince us that you are unbiased!
If you are honest as you say you are and do not have a hidden agenda, we will have to wait and see. Only time will reveal your intentions.
HahooGuru
Posted
on 28-May-02 08:40 PM
Sage in someother thread wrote: I have been thinking of this very much, Mahamurkha, and thinking whether it would be possible for me to be in a rural area as an "international observer".
-- Now its clear. Sage wants to apply for money to some "religious cultist org." who usually exploit the frustrations in war zone and turn local peoples into their cult member. Sage, is heading in that direction. Now, he is international observer. Hahahah./..... LOL. You make one website, run propaganda and become internatioanl observer, the bottomline qualification. F.U.
huh
Posted
on 29-May-02 12:58 AM
would you explain us more about your 'grassroot democracy' and 'horizontal solidarity' ?
tiramisu
Posted
on 29-May-02 01:34 AM
i may have nodded while reading some of your lines and and i may have been put off by the others, BUT, WHY DO I HAVE THIS GUT FEELING THAT SAGE, AFTERALL, IS ANOTHER NEPALI? i'd like to know if it's otherwise.
huh
Posted
on 29-May-02 01:52 AM
"....SAGE, AFTERALL, IS ANOTHER NEPALI? " is it real ?
we are arguing with him in this way because he is saying that he is a US citizen.
rob
Posted
on 29-May-02 11:47 AM
WHOIS information on nepalsolidarity.net reaveals following info.
Radachowsky, Sage sagenepal@hotmail.com 11 Bardwell St Jamaica Plain, MA, 02130 US
rob2
Posted
on 29-May-02 12:33 PM
more about sage
Boston Independent Media Center Address: Boston IMC 240B Elm St. Somerville, MA 02144 Phone: 617-623-8IMC (8462) Directions: By T: -- Take the Red line to Davis Square. -- Come out of the turnstyles and make a right. -- At the street, make a right. -- Go 2 1/2 blocks to 240B Elm Street (just past the dunkin donuts). -- Head downstairs to the door labeled IMC.
By Car: -- Please use an online map Office Hours: Monday: 7pm-9pm Tuesday: 6pm-9pm Wednesday: 6pm-9pm
huh
Posted
on 29-May-02 12:37 PM
Hahooguruji, you are right.
He is related to a religious fundamentalist group
in GOOGLE search: appears such informations.
... religious fundamentalist group. Nepal Solidarity Network: http://nepalsolidarity.net/. nepalsolidarity.net. add your own comments. twincities.indymedia.org/ front.php3?article_id=5452&group=webcast - 17k - 28 May 2002 - Cached
huh
Posted
on 29-May-02 12:49 PM
Sage, why are you hiding your true face till now ?
Sage
Posted
on 29-May-02 02:55 PM
This is ridiculous. This is the last time I am on this thread -- there is no use continuing this stupid exchange. Think about it for a moment, will you -- why do you feel so bothered by what I am saying that you are doing internet detective work to find out who I am. I am not Nepali born but why does that matter when it comes to discussing issues? I have nothing much to do with the Boston IMC but I admire them. The Google search is the last paragraph of something I wrote that ended with "are not affiliated with any religious fundamentalist group..." And so on. I'm not in hiding, and I have nothing to hide. I came here for discussion and input and I sure as heck got it. Sadly it wasn't so much constructive in terms of learning about the situation in Nepal, but more about learning about some of the diasporic Nepali community in the states who spend time on the internet. Anyway, as I said this is the last time I will be on this thread, and I wish I could shut off the option that sends me an email whenever someone posts here. If you have something to say about the issues rather than me personally, then you know how to contact me. Thanks.
Nepal-America Maitri Sang
Posted
on 29-May-02 03:29 PM
Namaskaar to all Nepalese and Frineds of Nepal and America,
I think we have been little too harse on Sage. I am not apologetic to him, but, am trying to make some sense out of this thread.
We don't have to keep digging on his personal life. He seems to be a 'sociologist' either a faculty in UCON or a graduate student (http://www.ucc.uconn.edu/~ser00003/sage.htm). Either way he has written many articles in diversified subject including some about Nepal.
We do need lots of sociologist/anthropologist going deeper on finding the cause and effect of Maoist insurgency and other social injustices in Nepal. We are only looking at these problems from either Government, or Media point of view. Not many fruitful scientistific research have been done so far.
I am not advocating that Sage is a scientist but we need to encourage people like him to come forward and show us different perspective of this war. We all have a 'rats eye view' of the problem, because we are immersed on it somehow or other. A fresh 'birds eye view' by a outside party should be encouraged. We don't have to listen to everything what he has to say, but, we might get some interesting views.
Looking at his posting, his website and articles, he is definitely sympathiser to Maoit movements. That's OK, please let us not strike him off just because he has differences of opinions. It is the strength of democracy. Do you think we could discuss difference of opinions in a Rebuplic of Nepal?
And, to Mr. Sage, if you are that determined to help Nepal in this conflict, how come you could not even stand a 'cyber comment'? It only shows your weekness. If you are determined you should defend yourself and your ideas until death, just like many of our family members are doing in Nepal.
I hope now some sanity will return to this board. Otherwise the madness of Mr. Hahoo and Huh is making this board losing its old charm.
Before Hahoo and Huh want to chase Sage away from this board, they better go to school to learn abc of democracy.
Now we know who Sage is, can Mr. Huh tell us about himself ? Show us your resume of patriotism, Gadha.
Sage, I apologize for the mad attack on you by some foolish Nepalis. Please do keep on posting.
A fan of sage
Kastha
Posted
on 29-May-02 06:26 PM
Hahooguru needs to learn how to just shut up sometimes. That guy is so full of it sometimes. Learn to respect others and others will respect you. Respect other people's time, don't bore them with your neverending crap.
HahooGuru
Posted
on 29-May-02 07:17 PM
If you want to be leader in public, you should learn to pass through the questions I raised? You should be able to answer the questions I asked? If some questions are redundant, or not important, its better you neglect them, and if you think of satisfying me or anyone who raises questions against you, then, you can not move ahead. It is a kind of test on you. If you feel discouraged, then, you are not a good leader and its good that you are leaving at early stage. If you wish to be good leader, do not throw mud on those who ask questions on you, as in public there are people of all kinds and more severe than we have seen them here in Sajha.com. Its you how do you tackle the those questions.
Remember biggest failure of Ram in Ramayana is that Ram tried to please everyone, all good and bad guys, and some extreme who made comments based on rumors and some on intutioned blames ... yaso bhako le yaso hola.
Don't blame on those questions, but, if you feel the questions are absurd and need answer, then, reply accordingly so that your supporters are satisfied, but, do not forget sometime to avoid stupidity, because there are good peoples who are silently watching the events and sometime even under such extreme situations, it might be Buddimanta to not speak on charges that you think and know that these false, not true. Because in due time, all false things turn out to be false, because these is usually only one truth, well sometime, truth is also blurred. Hitler said, if you say something that is false, but if you say "its true" 100times, it can be made true, well, that was for Hitler ko jamana, but, in democracy, truth is always truth, but, you need to defend the truth when it passes through blurred zone or gray area. I think we were discussing this matter. Only some brained peoples can understand it. We wanted to know how genuine Sage's claim are?
HG
HahooGuru
Posted
on 29-May-02 07:24 PM
Correction: Please read the following line
"if you think of satisfying me or anyone who raises questions against you, then, you can not move ahead. "
as follows:
if you think of FULLY satisfying/pleasing all the peoples who raises questions against you, then, you might not be able to move ahead".
-- I meant you have short time, in this short time, we sometime have to give just hints and keep on moving. There should be time frame against each move, like in Press conference. You don't let everyone ask questions, and you just randomly select and hey you .. you ... and answer them. Once time, comes, what you will say, "Sorry guys, I don't have time, I have to leave. If you have more questions, next time". ... Parda Banda.
HG
another Fan of Sage
Posted
on 29-May-02 09:05 PM
Please keep up your posting......They were very insightful.............
Sage
Posted
on 29-May-02 09:32 PM
I agree with you HahooGuru about the limited time for press statements, except this isn't a press statement and I am no expert, but I am also here to learn from everyone. But you are right about having no time. I am busy and it takes time to reply to everything, and besides I feel bad -- why is this all about me. It is very strange to be the center of inquiry, and my thread is at the top of Kurakani. I am not the expert -- I am anti-expert. Everyone has a voice. It is about limited time. Someone said if you believe in something you will fight for it. Yes, I believe in true democracy and justice, and I will fight injustice until the end of my life, but this forum is not the only place to fight for it, but just one place among many. Time is limited for one single person. Thank you to 'fans' for encouragement; but truly all I really want is to be learning from a dialogue, not being an 'expert' or center of attention. I am no expert. Speaking of experts...
If anyone lives in the Boston area, on Thursday May 30 there is a talk by Saubhagya Shah at 7:30 pm. I have heard he is a good and insightful speaker. Dudley Hall, near Harvard. He is assistant professor of Sociology/Anthropology at Trubhuvan University.
If you live near Ithaca, New York there is a series of discussions there June 4, and showing of the film "The Killing Terraces" by Dhurba Basnet, and an editor of Himal, Basanta Thapa. I can give more information if you need it. Has anyone seen this film, and do you have an opinion on it? I think it was made two years ago. I have not seen it and I think it costs $160 to buy.
hu
Posted
on 29-May-02 11:36 PM
I am very grateful to a fan of sage's nice words to me.
it is not the first time sage saying that it will be his last posting on this thread, but he has come and again and will be here in the future also. please don't worry 'a sage of fan' .
I am posting here as a 'sarba sadharan nagrik'. If I came here with a claim of trying to solve maoist problem and with other some mission of finding truths,I would never hesitate to tell all the truth about me. when I will be here with claim of 'trying to help find a true peace', I will,of course, introduce honestly myself at first. I believe that if I am trying to find some truth, I must have enough courage, determination and patience to hear all the criticism. ____________________________ In sage's first posting, he wrote that: '...I know there are strong emotions on this issue.', .....how is the best way to achieve peace'
Posted on 05-13-02 3:33 PM Reply | Notify Me okay, this is the last time I am responding to Huh's comments because I don't have time to continue
....So I am continuing and I thank everyone who gave me advice in good intentions, and I am sorry to offend other people but sometimes offending people may be necessary when discussion is necessary on painful issues.
...I appreciate your(huh) words and I want to hear more please.
Posted on 05-28-02 12:00 PM Reply | Notify Me am really saddened by the comments here.
.....Yes personal accusations upset me briefly but in the long run it's nothing.
Sage Posted on 05-29-02 2:55 PM Reply | Notify Me his is ridiculous. This is the last time I am on this thread .....
Posted on 05-29-02 9:32 PM Reply | Notify Me I agree with you HahooGuru about the limited time for press statements, ..... --------------------------------------------------- I will feel great for ' a fan of sage' if he has read sage's postings and has visited his links.
If sage is really honest to his postings he should feel great in giving clarifications about his stuffs in a public place such as sajha.com
In my college life in kathmandu, My roommate was from rukum,chaurajhari and share a shame room for three years. later he even became candidate of president in campus election from ANNFSU(R), maoist students wing. although we have different political opinions, we are very close friends. actually I am here to learn more from sage's opinions and I had a patience to read his postings although he has repeated same things for many times. It is not strange to seek honesty in everyone's writings and no doubt with more discussions, reveal more truth. It is the strength of democracy.
sar
Posted
on 30-May-02 05:33 AM
huh wrote:
Hahooguruji, you are right.
He is related to a religious fundamentalist group
in GOOGLE search: appears such informations.
... religious fundamentalist group. Nepal Solidarity Network: http://nepalsolidarity.net/. nepalsolidarity.net. add your own comments. twincities.indymedia.org/ front.php3?article_id=5452&group=webcast - 17k - 28 May 2002 - Cached
Here is the complete text from the same webpage:
Just after September 11, references to the insurgents by the government of Nepal, and mainstream media inside and outside of Nepal, switched from using the word "Maoists" to "terrorists". Thus, the class war in Nepal has become part of the global "War on Terrorism", despite the fact that there are no known connections between the Nepali insurgents and Al Qaeda or any other religious fundamentalist group.
I wonder if huh intentionally used part of the text to make his point?
sar
Posted
on 30-May-02 05:46 AM
One more observation:
Hahooguru wrote this about sage:
He is Nepal, pretending to be non-Nepali, to justify his gross negligence. He is bullshitting, by thinking that writing Robert, Michael, Clinton ....Bush as his his name, will be respected by Nepalis. Don't pretend, Mr. Coward.
Now that we know our venerable Hahooguru made a wrong guess, will he take his own advice of not putting up wrong postings in the public forum:
This is a public forum. You should know how to walk in the public and if you try to be oversmart and walk naked like in emperors cloth, that you expect everyone to agree with you, then, you will find "Hahahahahah .... on your postings, nothing more". When you walk in public you should be able to convince public that you are alright. But, here in this forum we smelled something else. Now, you are suffering from your own wrong postings.
huh
Posted
on 30-May-02 06:26 AM
sage, you and only you know the better in which organizations you are involved in. In your email sent to me you said that you were carpenter and student. you said that you have shown great interest to help solving nepal's maoist conflict. It is not starnge try to know more about foreigner who is saying that he is saying to help us in solving maoist problem. Isn't it you that foreign countries like USA have petroleum interest in nepal so they are providing military assistance to nepal's ogvernment. IF US GOVERNMENT's assistance is under suspicion of vested interest as u pointed out above, then people has also right to know more about your 'finding out the truth and help to solve the conflict' mission.
As I already said above that there could be some misinterpretation, but more discussions reveal more truth. It is the strength of democracy. I believe person of integrity and honesty never fear criticism. I feel honoured if somebody give me opportunity to prove my honesty under such issues. I do not care anymore about your personnel involvement. It is your freedom to be affiliated with any organizations. This issue came to the surface only due long discussion held above.
You must know one chinese proverb that 'zhen jin bu pa huo lian'(pure gold does not fear fire)
amherst
Posted
on 30-May-02 09:53 AM
i think this discussion has been an excellent example and a learning lesson for all of us...it is clear from these discussions that the issues that we are trying to talk about here is VERY complex. some people can't even pass through personal attacks, others like myself feel helpless, and yet there are those who are determined to fight the fight...
i personally am surprised and sadden by the fact that some of you went through so much trouble to find out who sage is, and in that you all wasted your time and our time in changing the entire subject matter of this discussion group.......how about you people start a discussion group "who is sage" or something like that? if we in the US who are technically in a much safer environment cannot have a constructive discussion and think critically about the situation in nepal, how in the hell can we even begin to blame the people in nepal who are literally living in fear everyday to do things differently? change needs to happen here as much as in nepal. if we cannot respect each other's views and keep an open mind to learn from everyone then we are not going to get anywhere...
i am sorry i am doing exactly what i did not intend to do, i want people to stop attacking each other........please!
my two cents:
if KILLING the last moaist is the only solution to peace in Nepal...how are we then different from the "maoist" ?
attack the defenders
Posted
on 30-May-02 02:38 PM
look, if sage radachomsky's constitution isn't strong enough to withstand what's been thrown at him, that's tough. he is clearly a maoist sympathizer (albeit only when they're not doing what maoists always do, which is murder people in the most barbaric ways imaginable.) and, no matter what anyone defending him thinks they are doing by defending him, his ilk are extremely dangerous and should be watched closely.
when "patel singh" comes into this house and starts talking the way he has, he gets taken to task. rightly so. same goes for sage. rightly so as well. just part of the a, b, and cs of dem,o,cra,cies!
kuires like sage trying to glom on to nepal ain't nothing new, folks. nepalis need to learn how to say no. i mean, a 26-year-old senior majoring in sociology--is that, like, the eight-year plan??? in all fairness, maybe he earned a bachelor's degree in english beforehand, otherwise, what qualified him to teach english overseas?
maybe he could post a photo of himself looking in the mirror "with an intense stare" (like the one described in The News-Times article 4.19.00) and make us all cry. (sure it wasn't the cs gas???) as for that arrest citation, let's just call it his pink badge of courage. arrright, now for another i-really-really-really-mean-it-this-time last response to this thread.
Okil
Posted
on 30-May-02 03:35 PM
Let me hurl an Ashu’s grinade at these silly attackers of Sage. Whenever some anonymous silly sajha visitors attacked Ashu, he used to challenge them to come with their real identity and proof for everything on the table. He used to say, my name is Ashu Tiwari and I do so and so, what is yours and what do you do, sir ? All those silly, jealous, foolish posters chup !
Now that Sage Radachomsky is a publicly known figure with proven resume of his activism and interest in Nepali people, I challenge all these anonymous poster to tell what’s their resume, what have they done for the people and country to inerrogate and insult a genuine activist like Sage ?
Hahoo and Huh were testing the tolerance power of Sage ???
Don’t try to save your faces with this ridiculous pretension. Nobody trust Hahoo and Huh anymore. You don’t have even a minimum of civil manner and intellectual integrity. You make sajha a shame
huh
Posted
on 30-May-02 04:22 PM
sage with huh(earlier discussions and emails) Sage ID: 7510945 Posted on 05-12-02 7:12 PM Reply | Notify Me no that is not me but please make it available to me. I am interested to read it. No I don't know Li Onesto and I don't think her reporting is unbiased either. It is obviously biased from the other direction.
I am pleased to have your introduction.
I am also pleased to be discussing this. I think we all need to talk more, in nonconfrontational ways, and to learn about other peoples' viewpoints. This is my idealistic outlook, perhaps.
Hello again,
Solutions? I don't have easy answers. I think that first it is very important to understand the full depth of the problems -- to have a deep analysis.
Then, I think that it is also important to understand the tactics used by the powerful interests. The media, the police, counterintelligence, all of the ways that the powerful can neutralize opponents.
Also, I think it is important to understand that "You can't dismantle the master's house with the master's tools." We have to invent new techniques. We cannot vote the powerful interests out of office.
That is all I can say right now. Let us remain in touch. What is your understanding of the Maoist conflict? Would you like to join the NepalDiscussion list? If so, I can sign you up.
I copied below many questions that I put to the email list. If you have any ideas or opinions, please tell me and I can post them on the list.
Sage
HahooGuru
Posted
on 30-May-02 06:28 PM
ATD wrote: kuires like sage trying to glom on to nepal ain't nothing new, folks. nepalis need to learn how to say no. i mean, a 26-year-old senior majoring in sociology--is that, like, the eight-year plan??? in all fairness, maybe he earned a bachelor's degree in english beforehand, otherwise, what qualified him to teach english overseas?
--- Yes, why am I furious over Sage?
Reasons: 1. He want to be international Observer. Now, looking at the fine he paid to Police for crossing the barricades "legal line", he wants to go beyond law or want to take law in his hand and buy it. A typical character of "hooliganism".
2. Teach English Overseas: Can I teach Nepali just becaue I am a Nepali? No. I need to have studied Nepali language in univ. to deserve to be a Nepali language teacher. Mr. Sage was exploiting the weakness of Nepal's legal system, he was english teacher in a village just because he was borned in USA. If you had English major, its fine with me. But, I have one more question, who was your sponser while you were in Nepal? Was it one your own earned money, then its fine. But, if you got some sponsership e.g. internship, I am still worried, you might have some other motive of being teacher in Nepal or sponser has some other hidden agenda, i.e. religious agenda. That is what happening in remote areas.
3. Looking at your website, you are still Maoist supporter or you are trying to get benefit out of the problem.
You have not answered in these aspects. I am asking these questions, why should you deserve to be an "International Observer", as a citizen of Nepal, I have right to ask you? I still suspect you will finally end up with a sponsor whose hidden motive will be religious agenda, and it should be clearly understood by fellow Nepalis. Religious freaks have loose money and anyone can be an "International Observer", show something, do something is working style of religious organizations that are operating in far western Nepal, and I guess you must have read the news for last 12 years.
HG
Okily Dokily, Homer
Posted
on 30-May-02 07:44 PM
>Let me hurl an Ashu’s grinade
Just remember: ALWAYS throw pin, hold grEnade.
>at these silly attackers of Sage.
Sss sounds start swoons (poetry AND humor, whadda bargain!)
>Whenever some anonymous silly sajha visitors attacked Ashu, he used to challenge them to come with their real identity
You better aks somebody, "who dat maksed man?"
>and proof for everything on the table.
Mabel, ma belle, take your elbows off table.
>He used to say, my name is Ashu Tiwari and I do so and so,
(Everybody in unison) "Hi, Ashoohi!"
>what is yours and what do you do, sir ?
Where from you?!
>All those silly, jealous, foolish posters chup !
Poseurs? Where? Where?
>Now that Sage Radachomsky is a publicly known figure with proven resume of his activism and interest in Nepali people
Some of y'all need to raise your standards a bit, if you call that "activism".
>I challenge all these anonymous poster to tell what’s their resume, what have they done for the people and country
My name is Diego Montoya. You killed my father. Now, prepare to die! ("No one expects the spanish inquisition!")
>to inerrogate and insult a genuine activist like Sage ?
If the cuffs don't fit, you must acquit!
>Hahoo and Huh were testing the tolerance power of Sage ???
That'll learn ya to "Check here to be notified by email whenever someone replies to this thread."
>Don’t try to save your faces with this ridiculous pretension.
Goodness graces, you losing faces!
>Nobody trust Hahoo and Huh anymore.
I trust 'em both...'bout as far as I can throw 'em!!!!
>You don’t have even a minimum of civil manner and intellectual integrity.
Now if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black!
>You make sajha a shame
Shame-based tactics for a shame-based culture, baburame. Guilt-based tactics for a guilt-based culture. You might have a CLUE (ALL CAPS, DR. WATSON!) about it if you had degrees in angreji ra (Bang! Time's up!).
NK
Posted
on 30-May-02 07:48 PM
hahaha! Jesus! Why are people so funny?
Fan of Haoo Guru
Posted
on 30-May-02 07:49 PM
I agree with HooGuru and support his opinion against Sage; it is not a petty accusation. After reading Sage's comments and visiting his website it is clear that he supports maobadis. You should also analyze his work before supporting him.
chicago
Posted
on 30-May-02 08:54 PM
Well, supporting either party does not make difference even that is extremly bad like Murder or killer. There is still thousand of attorney who represent for like serial killer. Another example, Still many countries support Palestanian even Isreal declared palestanian are terrorist. Who supports who? This is not big issue here. There is hundres of example, many supports many opponent party. Another example is, still Russia is good aly of Iraq, even Iraq is evil. My point is, it is absolutely wrong to reveal somebody/anybody's personal life and activities. Suppose, if someone reveal your personal life as guys did above, what happened to you?????
Whatever Sage posted in this forum, that's his opnion. It is not necessary to agree with him. May be, he is right in his way, or from his followers. who knows? Finally, I urge to everybody, do not try to reveal personal matter and don't post in this forum. It is very bad manner.
-- Chicago
Sage
Posted
on 30-May-02 09:47 PM
The role of international observer has been seen in many other conflicts, and the reason for foreign people taking the role (or U.N. representatives, or people with another extra-national group) is some degree of relative immunity from the conflict. The Red Cross works on such a basis -- carefully maintaining neutrality in any conflict and being clear that they are solely there to provide medical and health care in emergencies. International observers such as UN observers and other volunteer groups (Witnesses for Peace, although they are religious affiliated, and other nonreligious groups, Peace Brigades International, etc.) have been international "eyes" for conflicts in which people were being killed with no witnesses. It is very easy for a party to secretly "disappear" people or commit other crimes if there is no outside observer. Anything can be covered up. No wonder dictatorships and wannabe-dictators don't like human rights groups -- they perform a similar role. Anyway, though it is totally wrong to me that one person's life is seen as more significant than another's -- it's still the case that a foreigner's death would make the news and cause a scandal more than "just another" local death -- and with the institutional support, the observer can be a sort of reporter for the rest of the world. I was grasping at straws and trying to see what could be done. That was one idea. And I meant this about both the government and Maoist crimes -- to protect the villagers who are caught in the middle of the conflict.
I guess I understand the wariness about religious evangelists in Nepal. I am not that. I am not religious per se, but spiritual in my own way. I had to live for a week with a group of missionaries in Nepal and I was very upset with the way they conducted themselves. I felt a very bad vibe from them, and that any 'gifts' they gave were really with some expectations of converting people. I tried to counteract what they did. They told people that their own religious practices were wrong and immoral, and they they should convert to the 'one true way' etc -- all the normal evangelical stuff. I dislike that greatly. I find it very demeaning. I would never try to do anything like that even if I were a follower of a particular religion.
As for teaching English overseas -- I feel ambivalent about this. I was asked to do this by the village school. I feel strange because it feels imperialist -- as in, why should people in Nepal have to learn English. But then the SLC is set up so English is a requirement, and English is a very hard subject for a lot of rural schools to teach, and students said English was one of their hardest subjects to pass on the SLC. In this way, given the situation, I thought it was a good thing to teach. I taught supplemental classes -- in other words, students would have their normal English classes, and I would teach another one. I know English grammar and being a native speaker, it is not hard to teach basic grammar to people who don't know basic verb conjugations, etc. If you are a Nepali native speaker, I am happy to learn Nepali from you, even if you have no Nepali literature degree. The language is something different from the formal literature degree.
As for the website, from which you assume I am a Maoist supporter, may I once again explain it. Maybe with different words it will be clearer. I am undecided about things for which I have insufficient information. I think a lot of information is lacking or is biased and fabricated in a conflict like this. There are strong interests on each "side". However from the information I have, I support neither the government nor the Maoists. Some on each side is good and some on each side is deplorable. That is my opinion. I think it is important to escape the dogmatic idea that you have to support one side or the other -- "either you're with us or you're against us". That is the rhetoric of totalitarianism. In a true democratic society, it is possible to have a more complex viewpoint.
It is possible to have a third, fourth, or fifth viewpoint ... and so on. What I really want is a solution to the problems that we all know about in Nepal. But I don't think the Maoists are the solution.
However, I sympathize with the desire for rebellion. But look at the words carefully --- "sympathize" doesn't mean the same as "support" -- and "rebellion" doesn't mean "Maoists" -- and "desire" doesn't mean the actual action.
I think the situation is more complex than just to allow "democracy" to fix the problems, if you mean the kind of democracy that has been in existence for a decade (and for centuries in the USA, and not fixed the problems). But then is the "Prachanda path" the answer? I don't think it's the answer either. The Maoists' "40 points" from 1996 were very valid criticisms of Nepali society and oppressions under which a lot of people live. People suffer -- people live and die and see little for their labors. Women are oppressed, sometimes beaten, sometimes raped, grow up shy and afraid to speak. There is caste oppression. Magars, Gurungs, other ethnic groups, have been forced to abandon their heritage and language. There are problems. So I also had a spark of hope when a group was consistently giving voice to these oppressions. But then are they the answer? Even through the news bias, they seem oppressive, maybe even moreso than all those things in the 40 points. Who can tell, but they're not the best answer.
I am a 28 year old sociology student getting a masters (I hope). So I am 28 -- not everyone is born into a wealthy family. Some people have to work to pay tuition. I took some years to work. The newspaper article is not all there is to know about me. And you know, there is one more instance of press bias. The article misrepresents me -- twists my words. It's not bad. But you have to expect bias from the press, class bias. I don't say these things lightly but I have seen it time and time again. Sure I contradict myself. I grow, I learn, I change my mind. I value an open mind. So you may dig up something I said years ago. That's politics, but I am not a politician. I am a human who changes, and I have nothing to hide. It is strange to be investigated by this message board -- irksome, impolite -- but I have nothing to hide. I will tell you anything.
*** But -- I don't think I should be the topic, but rather the problems at hand should be the topic. Time is short. People are dying. People are displaced, people are hungry, people are suffering emotionally. Let's work toward better understanding, and then to solutions. If we are serious, this is what we have to do.
worse than bad manners
Posted
on 30-May-02 10:38 PM
chicago,
i understand what you are saying. for the record, the only party i support in nepal is the all-night party (woo hoo!). and i firmly believe that it is far worse than bad manners to coddle and enable people like sage. i am dead serious that he should be investigated by c.i.d. (really, it's no big deal, i'm sure) they should consider putting him on a watch list at ALL points of entry, physical and virtual, into nepal.
for a less salon.com point of view, try:
frontpagemag.com
yet another fan of Sage
Posted
on 01-Jun-02 11:16 PM
WTBN: >and i firmly believe that it is far worse than bad manners to coddle >and enable people like sage. i am dead serious that he should be >investigated by c.i.d. (really, it's no big deal, i'm sure) they >should consider putting him on a watch list at ALL points of entry, >physical and virtual, into nepal.
I am sure Sage has no problem to be investigated by CID or whatever. He does not have anything to hide. See for yourself the contrast between the real name Sage used in his postings and the faceless names of Sage bashers in this board.
I may not agree fully with Sage, but I find his postings full of serious, honest, intelligent and thought-provoking ideas, the kind of postings I come to Sajha looking for.
But for some right-wing fanatics in this board have found Sage as a serious threat. Instead of fighting with the counter-argument, they are trying to harass him by digging out his privacy and personal attack, quite against sajha ethics. Despite all this, look at the benevolence of Sage, he is not enraged. He is still writing with the same calmness and honesty. Imagine what will happen if somebody digs out pictures and personal info of one of these fanatics !
In the sense that these right-wing fanatics are fighting with the person but not with the idea, they are similar to some aspect of Maoists. Left-wing fanatics=right-wing fanatics.
It is of a particular interest to observe these 3-4 right-wing fanatics presenting themselves as representing the whole sajha and monopolizing this board. They patronize sajha and always write WE think so, We must do so, We... We.. We. Oye fanatics ho, there is no We in the sajha as far as debate with opinion and thoughts is concerned. There is only I and every I is as important as any other I. Right-wing fanatics, you are not the only voice in the sajha. Therefore don’t use generic We in place of specific We.
Right-wing fanatics ho, if you can not silence or chase away Sage by personal attack. He has as much right as any of you to write in this board. On top of that he writes interesting things about and relevant to Nepal. He has readers in this board.
If nothing convinces you, you will probably hear from San, if you ask, that he has no problem with Sage posting in this board. After all this web site belongs to San Pradhan, not you a bunch of right-wing fanatics. Get it clear.
Sage getter
Posted
on 02-Jun-02 01:57 AM
> See for yourself the contrast between the real name Sage used in his postings >and the faceless names of Sage bashers in this board.
oh so.. what is your face? faceless critic!
>I may not agree fully with Sage, but I find his postings full of serious, honest, >intelligent and thought-provoking ideas, the kind of postings I come to Sajha >looking for.
this is your opinion, and yours only.
>Instead of fighting with the counter-argument, they are trying to harass him..
There are acusations on both sides, look at your own words...
>In the sense that these right-wing fanatics are fighting with the person but not >with the idea, they are similar to some aspect of Maoists. Left-wing >fanatics=right-wing fanatics.
I (we) think that we are against the idea that sage is advocating. We do not think he is honest.. you got problem with that.. oh well.. learn to live with disagreements.
>It is of a particular interest to observe these 3-4 right-wing fanatics presenting >themselves as representing the whole sajha and monopolizing this board. They >patronize sajha and always write WE think so, We must do so, We... We.. We. >Oye fanatics ho, there is no We in the sajha as far as debate with opinion and >thoughts is concerned. There is only I and every I is as important as any other I. >Right-wing fanatics, you are not the only voice in the sajha. Therefore don’t use >generic We in place of specific We.
There are mnay people that have problem with Sage's motive. There is nothing wrong in addressing yourself as a third person or in a plural form. This is quiet common in Nepal. Lean to accept the differences.
>. He has readers in this >board.
We are also forced to read his biased opinion, as well. He is getting polished, though in his approach.
>If nothing convinces you, you will probably hear from San, if you ask, that he >has no problem with Sage posting in this board. After all this web site belongs to >San Pradhan, not you a bunch of right-wing fanatics. Get it clear.
Trying to get the referee on your side but people are smarter than you.
YAFS
Posted
on 02-Jun-02 03:40 AM
>oh so.. what is your face? faceless critic!
You show yours, I will show mine, in case you are very much interested. But my point was not that. Get my point from the following:
Anonymous person supports Anonymous person - Fine Anonymous person supports Real person - Fine Real person supports Anonymous person - Fine Real person attacks Anonymous person - Fair Anonymous person attacks Anonymous person - Fair Anonymous person attacks real person - Unfair
>this is your opinion, and yours only.
No problem.
>I (we) think that we are against the idea that sage is advocating. We do not >think he is honest.. you got problem with that.. oh well.. learn to live with >disagreements.
Against the idea ? which one ? I mean here you come to the track. Let's talk about the idea. Let's talk about the class, let's talk about the power, let's talk about the oppression, let's talk about justice, let's talk about the system. But you guys were not there. Honesty ? Hmmm... just who is asking about this ? I am 99% sure some of you are the agent of the government sent for suppressing the dissent by harassement and disinformation. Prove your honesty first. Sage is honest. He just has views different than yours.
>We are also forced to read his biased opinion, as well. He is getting >polished, though in his approach.
Who do you think does not have biased opinion ? Read the opinions of Sage bashers. Decide for yourself.
>Trying to get the referee on your side but people are smarter than you.
No. Not on my side. Just neutral. San will always be neutral. That's what Sajha is all about. Sajha is not a 'birta' of right-wing fanatics.
tiramisu
Posted
on 02-Jun-02 04:35 AM
having read all of the postings to this thread, from all sides, i am still not convinced sage being a non-nepali. IMPOSSIBLE. as far as all his so called 'fans' are concerned, WAKE UP! YOU CLAIM THAT HE'S SHOWN HIS TRUE FACE? WHAT DOES HE LOOK LIKE? THE CASUAL WAY IN WHICH HE INSERTS NEPALI WORDS/SLOGANS MAKES IT ALL TOO TRANSPARENT FOR MY EYES AND GIVES ME REASONS TO BELIEVE THAT SAGE, ALTHOUGH THE NAME SOUNDS NOBLE, IS OTHERWISE, WITH MOTIVES TO MATCH. tell me if it's otherwise. he has suggested in his postings where group talks are held, do we know if he attended them as well? i appreciate the effort of huh and hahoo goroo to unmask this person, whoever he may be. I AM ENTITLED TO MY OWN OPINION, AS OTHERS ARE TO THEIR OWN. JUST AGREE OR DISAGREE. NO NEED TO GO FURTHER THAN THAT.
HahooGuru
Posted
on 02-Jun-02 10:43 AM
try
HahooGuru
Posted
on 02-Jun-02 10:44 AM
Sage wrote:I guess I understand the wariness about religious evangelists in Nepal. I am not that. I am not religious per se, but spiritual in my own way. I had to live for a week with a group of missionaries in Nepal and I was very upset with the way they conducted themselves. I felt a very bad vibe from them, and that any 'gifts' they gave were really with some expectations of converting people. I tried to counteract what they did. They told people that their own religious practices were wrong and immoral, and they they should convert to the 'one true way' etc -- all the normal evangelical stuff. I dislike that greatly. I find it very demeaning. I would never try to do anything like that even if I were a follower of a particular religion.
---- Sage, thanks a lot for your honesty and I am fine too. I am really happy to read your first hand experience on that particular issue. Its gratifying to get the facts.
HG
Posted
on 02-Jun-02 10:54 AM
You are a sage advocate, and you think you are neutral? When there re two parties one one agrees and other disagrees. You take one side and call yourself neutral? Think about the definition of being neutral?
I am done with you. I do not intend to get in this discussion, anymore.
neutral(?)
Posted
on 02-Jun-02 01:48 PM
Neutral ! neutral means always remain between two sides like equtorial line of the earth,neither north pole nor south pole. Even in soccer games, neutral persons do not support any team. They just hope to be scored equal by both sides like 2002 worldcup match between ENGLAND and SWEEDEN. (but in final match,what to do ? let's see)
abc
Posted
on 02-Jun-02 04:39 PM
Sage is another intelegent person who sajha.com deserves........Who cares he is nepali or non-nepali if he seriously comes to discuss for a better Nepal and Nepalis.....
Whether it is right or left, fanatical idea never helped and helps......
As I already told in another thread that Sage was born with democracy, played with democracy and matured with democracy. So, we can easily observe difference between our *socalled nepali democrats* and Sage.............
The IP addresses of the FANATICS (who pretend they values DEMOCRACY) who rushed to Say Mr. Sage a BASTARD, BULLSHIT, CULT, and so on should be banned. These are the people who are harming our nepali society by not allowing alternative thought...........
It sounds like these fanatics are payrolled by some special interest group of nepali political arena........
They are here talking like a DALAL (broker) of these interest groups........
Sage, thanks for your calmness, sincerity, insightful thought and interest toward better nepal........
By now, discussing with these FATATICS, you may have known that how backward we nepalese are........
Do you still believe we can make nepal better by carrying these fanatics .......??????
Sage
Posted
on 02-Jun-02 08:01 PM
I'm still completely amazed that this thread is always on the top of sajha.com ... I guess it is good to be discussing these sorts of issues and getting our neurons to be processing all the things involved. I don't mind being the cause of some critical thinking, even at my expense or ridicule. That's fine by me.
I want to say thanks for the very kind words from some posters, and no hard feelings to anyone else either.
But the last thing I want to be responsible for is people thinking that Nepali people are fanatics or can't solve their own problems.
Well, heck, look at the USA and the US-born fanatics. Look at Rush Limbaugh, heck look at the cabinet of the United States -- a bunch of fanatics that are causing havoc around the world. Look at all the flag waving here and the "United We Stand" and the "Osama: Wanted Dead or Alive" signs and the repression in the name of patriotism, when it's not going to make us safe -- and it's becoming a threat of its own.
The U.S. form of democracy is not too much better (if at all) than the Nepali form. It's more similar than different -- in Nepal, wealthy interests have huge undeserved influence -- and in the U.S. wealthy interests have huge undeserved influence. In Nepal there is caste/ethinc discrimination -- and in the U.S. there is racism and non-white people live in disproportionate poverty and are the biggest proportions of people in prison. In Nepal there is a "state of emergency" even more Orwellian than the TADO ordinances -- and in the U.S. there is the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act even more Orwellian than the previous law enforcement rules (which were never followed anyway, if you know about COINTELPRO and the Haymarket Affair, etc -- the U.S. versions of Kilo Sera II and Opeation Romeo, and the manhunts before the 1990 jana andolan)...
No -- there is nothing unique about the Nepali situation -- it's the same old story with different names and details. It's just the way power works.
And from my experience in Nepal, among ordinary Nepali people in villages, working in fields, talking with people while cutting millet or rice or digging potatoes or milking gaiharu etc... I have to say I am much MORE inspired by Nepali people than by U.S. people.
I think it is such a myth that it is only Nepali people who have the "ke garne?" attitude. The feeling that they can't change anything, that individuals can't change history, that nothing will ever change.
There's less apathy than in the USA. I have met Nepali people who I respect SO MUCH, who are working in human rights or against kamaiya slavery or against sexist violence against women, or to organize their own village to get a new school or better schoolbooks, etc.
There are Aama Samuha throughout Nepal, of women who have come together on their own initiative, to fight the injustices in their own lives, and to do bikas work that THEY need, but the men of the village don't care about, and to fight alcoholism, which is more common among purusharu than mahilaharu...
The reason I went to Nepal and taught in a school for months, to help students pass the horrible SLC exams that judge them either "success" or "failure" in life, is because of one very dedicated Nepali person who is trying so many things to empower his own village. He is amazing. He never stops thinking about how to work to make life better.
I wish we had more people like that in the USA.
But what keeps poverty there, and makes it worse? Well I think it's a lot of things, same as in the USA -- it's cultural racist and sexist beliefs, and it's the interests of the powerful who really do stop people from organizing to improve their own lives. Why? Because of class interests, which also intersect with the caste/race and gender dynamics, and many other things...
What if the Nepali government's response to the Rapta movement was more constructive, rather than to try to kill the organizers? I don't know the history too well, but I think that maybe if they tried to listen, and TRIED to do something, instead of being so against any kind of change -- then the situation wouldn't be like it is today. But that's nothing new. The same thing happens in the US. The difference is that the US government has had a lot more time (and money) to learn how to deal with the "problem" of people who want to improve their lives and fight injustice.
(Once again, I will repeat this is not to justify the crimes of some of the Maoists -- they cannot be denied. I am pointing to the history of the conflict.)
Anyway, I claim NO special privilege because I was 'born with democracy' and 'raised with democracy' -- I appreciate the kind words, but the truth is I grew up in the USA, and I grew up so ignorant, watching Gilligan's Island and all the other stupid TV shows and never understanding racism or the history of genocide that started this country, or all the repression of labor unions and other people who tried to organize for themselves, or for justice....
In fact I think it's an advantage to grow up in Nepal, away from the TV with its full-time indoctrination. At least in most parts of Nepal, people still have their own minds and learn from the earth, the way the plants grow, the way water flows, from talking with each other... and so on. Yes I wish there was more eduction of a critical kind in Nepal, not the SLC memorization kind -- and more radio than Radio Nepal, but at least there's no CNN.
But I don't believe that "ke garne" is a 'fatalism' that is limited to Nepal -- it's a human universal, and it is LOVED by the people in power because it means the ordinary people won't cause them problems.
huh
Posted
on 03-Jun-02 01:42 AM
I have not found any words sri5 till now. What does it mean ?
is it 'shree 5 ko...', then it's ok. (just joking !)
huh
Posted
on 03-Jun-02 01:43 AM
Sage, I suggest you to read 'Fatalism and Development in nepal' book written by Dor Bahadur Bista which will help you to understand more about nepali society.
huh
Posted
on 03-Jun-02 01:47 AM
Date: 03-Jun-02 Posted By: huh Message: I have not found any words sri5 till now. What does it mean ? is it 'shree 5 ko...', then it's ok. (just joking !)
(I am sorry that it is posted in another thread, but appears here,strange !)
