| Sajha.com Archives | |
| Username | Post |
| NK | Posted
on 15-May-02 09:47 AM
Are we going to lick the wound? Do we all remember a posting by Biswo [hi biswo :)]chastising Kunda Dixit for saying the unsayable, the unthinkable? According to The Times of India Mr. Dixit supposedly said that the Nepal Army may not be equipped to fight the terrorists and may seek Indian help. Lo and behold, the sky crashed right infront of us. Everybody start to question his integrity of him being a Nepali. Poor Mr. Dixit. Fearful for his life (must be!) he recanted later. I still tend to think as knowledgeable as he is and knows ins and outs from durbar to dhoka - everything, he had doubts about our bir NRA's capabilites. After nearly 6 months (?) later the Army General S. Padmanabhan, has toured (did he come on his own? mayb e the *very* patriotic Nepali woul dlike to think so. the ones who were ready to burn down kathmandu after a small digression from some Indian actor) and says he is ready to help out embattled, beleagured ( i like this word) janta and the country. Hmmmm.... a misplaced pride takes one nowhere, if you ask me. |
| SIWALIK | Posted
on 15-May-02 10:37 AM
You are so right! Unfortunately there is a trite adage about "hakikat ko chattan" that smashes many "sapana". It is no surprise that nationalist fervor could not clothe and equip the Royal Nepal Army against the threats of Maoists. Now the King who is known to be anti-India is "conferring the Khadga (sword) and Royal Seal of Honorary General of the Royal Nepal Army on Chief of Army Staff of India General Sundararajan Padmanabhan." Politics makes strange bedfellow, we all know, where the only motive is "power". And the elite in Nepal have internalized this for centuries. And the people readily buy it under the garb of "ultra nationalism". |
| uncle jam wants you | Posted
on 15-May-02 01:04 PM
>It is no surprise that nationalist fervor could not clothe and >equip the Royal Nepal Army against the >threats of Maoists. good point--with the exception of american nationalist fervor. you can thank us later. |
| Ke Garne | Posted
on 15-May-02 01:23 PM
Hi all, I had read the posting by Biswo arguing RNA would never seek military help from India. Mr. Dixit was the anti Nepali and Indian Chamchha........... Finally, he was right and we all are "otherwise".......... Do we need Indian Army to Kill our own destitute people to keep our unpopular King and the Rana-s? Why don't we think of to get some one else the Army Chief of Staff instead of Rana-s? Isn't there any one who deserve for to be the Army Chief of Staff in Nepal? Of course, there are tenth of highly respectable Army Staffs in RNA, who are not heir of Rana-s. Why don't we seek for change? Change expected.......... |
| huh | Posted
on 15-May-02 01:38 PM
After Prajwal SJBR, Durga nath aryal is the second highest ranking army officer in the RNA, I think he is going to be retired very soon. After some months, Prajwal's time period will also finish. I heard that Possible candidate of the COAS now is Victri rana, General Rukmangat katuwal(who accompanied deuba in america tour), from so called 'dalit' caste is also another one of the highest ranking army officer.(compiled from news source) |
| maobadi?? | Posted
on 15-May-02 03:30 PM
Ke Garne! Your plea to oust the king goes hand in hand with the maobadi demand. Please do not tell me you support the bastards... You are one of them?? You should read the eye witness details of the maobadi victims before speaking for them. After reading the horrifying stories no one can call maobadi human! |
| Biswo | Posted
on 15-May-02 05:28 PM
Dear NK: The reason why Mr Dixit was chastised was not because he happened to be so good an astrologer, but because he said those discouraging words the day RNA was detailed to fight with the rebels. It is a matter of proprietery. When a child is born in a house, can you say to the folks there, 'this is going to die in future'? even if the child looks weak? Again, it is not that "RNA is not able to fight with the terrorists". The fact is it has almost decimated the terrorists. Mr Padmanavan's visit is not specially arranged, but a routine exchange of visits between our two army chiefs. The government of Nepal, and RNA both are trying to upgrade its capacity rightnow. Some of Indian airforce technology are pretty good, shared with Israel and Russia. While it is not likely that we may get that advanced technology, any thing we get to enhance our military might should be taken. I am not wounded now due to Mr P's visit. Let's not interpret the ongoing efforts of RNA as the sign of its weakness. It is more the sign of its interest in well equipping itself. |
| ?/? | Posted
on 15-May-02 06:41 PM
Admit it. Prajjol Samser himself has told recently that it will take ten years to wipe out Maoists. Do you know what was he saying ? NRA can not defeat Maoists. They can kill a few hundreds of them (of course by getting killed in turn like in Gam), but defeating them by RNA themselves ? Good dream. There is no way for these corrupt parties but to agree to launch the political and social reforms Maoists are demanding. People are tired of these politicians. They are looking for something new. |
| Paschim | Posted
on 15-May-02 09:01 PM
I think this great Biswo-Kunda controversy happened before my birth on Sajha at the beginning of this year, but wasn't Kunda reported to have said more than along the lines of the army just needing help from India? I thought he had either insinuated or said on record, according to TOI, that RNA might invite Indian soliders to join them on Nepali soil to fight Maoists? I don't know what he is said to have said. Does any one have ready access to what Kunda is said to have said on TOI? I'd be interested in reading it. I did read his denial though, which was most amusing. In fact I was so amused that I used his words almost verbatim as a satire in my second episode of Gaunthali saga, "Dilli Bhurtel Denies Statement". Anyway, comments above are interesting. I have also been self-critical of our jingoism and 'misplaced national pride', and would have no hesitation whatsoever in receiving foriegn aid in any form for the military; but I would never accept the presence of any foriegn troops on Nepali soil with the intention of combat. Our tax base barely covering the 'regular' expenditures of government, i.e., the salariat, much of our 'development' expenditures have practically always been financed through foreign aid in a variety of forms (cash, material, technical expertise, wheat shipped from France, etc.) and almost every Nepali institution has benefitted from aid. The RNA which is just another government institution under the Ministry of Defence, like the Police is under the Ministry of Home, should be allowed to avail of foreign help as it has done since Prithivi Narayan Shah's time. Our Unification process was massively assisted by arms that PN Shah obtained from the Indian city of Benares where his second wife came from and whose father - a local feudal or even a minor king - helped generously. So there is a glorious history of receiving military help from India even before India in its current form was born and Nepal was being made. But we should resist with all might the presence of foreign troops on our soil. This directly touches on issues of sovereignty. Prithivi Narayan Shah resisted that 250 years ago. So should we today if it comes to that which is highly, highly unlikely. |
| ashu | Posted
on 15-May-02 10:31 PM
I agree that the idea of foreign troops in Nepal was and is not palatable. But as a citizen, I sit here and wonder and wonder: Why is it that none of us -- forget the jounalists!! -- seem to have the guts, the courage and the intellectual honesty to ask really hard, tough questions about the operations Royal Nepal Army since November 2001? Does asking critical and answer-seeking and OPEN-ended questions in public about the Army, by definition, IMPLY disloyalty to this great, wonderful nation of ours? Does asking those questions invite personal troubles in one's life in Nepal? If so, what does that tell us about the state of democracy in Nepal? Is there a public space in Nepal to be fiercely anti-Maobadi on the one hand but still be able to seek information of public-interest on Army's modus operandi AFTER certain masscares (such as the one in Achham, for instance) have already happened so as to find out: a) why and how fellow-Nepalis got killed and b) whether instances of those sort could have been avoided in the future? These are some of the conceptual questions I have. I do not know the answers. But I am asking them anyway -- as a citizen of this democratic country, who's been taught, since Class 1, to respect and honor the Royal Nepal Army. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| Paschim | Posted
on 15-May-02 11:27 PM
Ashu, good points which I agree with. Hesitation to criticize the Army is not a NEW phenomenon. Such has been the feared feudal essense of that institution that even in the Constitution, their status is ridiculously positioned. And until the Massacre of last year they were really left alone with no one questioning them on their performance or even on how they keep their accounts and manage public funds. This can't do and won't do. Viewed against the backdrop of this history though, I am actually encouraged by the INCREASING level of debate and questions that are being aired in the public space. I have been reading these issues being talked about openly in the Nepali papers, parliamentary committees have summoned and grilled the Army Chief and MPs have gone and monitored situations in the West; and even in forums like Sajha here, we are raising the issues frankly in our own small and humble capacities. I was particularly pleased to have read articles that exposed the ugly feudal practices that have gone on until recently like untouchability, and an ongoing system of keeping some ridiculous number (up to 8?) army "servants" to do personal household work for the senior feudal lords. But I agree all this is not happening in the required intensity and volume. If we consider the history of almost zero public debate on the Army before 2001 and a need to *critically* sympathize with the state at an hour of national crisis, I am hopeful that we can only do better on this front in the days to come, and that the Emergency has, not by design, actually offered a pad for us to start the critical questions that citizens must ask of all its institutions, including the Ministry of Defence and its organ, the RNA. |
| NK | Posted
on 16-May-02 07:45 AM
Dear Biswo, To get into argument with you about that old thread was not my intention. When I saw the news about the Army General visiting, it triggered my memory about that long gone thread. Still, I have just one question for you. Does a journalist always have to worry about boosting the morale of her/his country? Besides reporting, does one have to be a cheer leader? Can they ever say frankly, what is in their mind? Also, would we have taken differently if he was quoted in say The New York Times not in the Times of India? The other day I was having my tea around 4 and there he was again in NPR. Kunda was saying since Mao wants not only to be the top dog but the *only dog* this fight will go on. Now, should we throw rotten eggs at him for discouraging us? Or should he be forgiven since it was boradcasted in NPR? Paschim and Ashu, I think I would be a fool If I support the Indian Army coming to our soil and fight for us. That is unthinkable and should not be allowed to. But as we know our force is poorly equipped and as I hear often spread terribly thin. Sher Bahadu Deuba is asking from boots to night vision goggles, maybe even pants and under wears, who knows? But what is the answer for not having enough soldiers to fight? Biswo points out they have nearly decimated the Maoists. This I doubt. To get to the real news I have to read The New York Times. Remember that news about 650 guerillas being killed and later turned out to be untrue? The total number which is still sketchy, of Maoists killed were around 100 and total number of army being butchered? That too around 100! Since no journalist is allowed to go visit the area, everything becomes a hearsay. According to the Times (quotes some army official) these hundred soldiers *stumbled* upon a large permanent Maoist base! They had trekked 8 h ours to get their lugging their own food, gun, ammunition, and sleeping gears! And listen to this. I am quoting word by word, " Later, when an army officer decided he wanted to join his forces for the engagement, there was no helicopter to take him. Instead he rode a bus for two hours, then hiked for another four hours. 'This is your commander,' said a Western official who spent last week in Rolpa distric. 'And that's how he got there. It's pathetic.'" According to the Times they all must been perished. This was the Gam incident. My question is, Is this how we are fighting this war? When and How will this end? |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 16-May-02 08:09 AM
With the news on Indian Army General in Pokhara Pension Camp, I remember the day when Mrs. Indira Gandhi was there at the same camp giving a speech and we were lining to respect her with NAMASTE from our school where majority of the students from Pension Camp Ram Bazar were either son or daughter of Indian army or British Army. Within a few weeks/months, I saw pamphlets and news on Radio Sikkim India le Khayo re, aba Nepal pani khane re . .. .. etc ... After some time, I heard a new country Bangladesh was created and we all forgot the Purbi Pakistan .... India was always playing games especially during elections in India, so, the general rule in India is create problem with neighbours, divert domestic problem and show a crisis and ask for vote. So, we have to be careful with Indian Moves, especially, when election is approaching in India. HG |
| suna | Posted
on 16-May-02 09:33 AM
Guys! AGAIN as in my past postings on this topic: SIKKIM, SIKKIM!!! Does that ring a bell?? Scary thought! (I sound like a maina !) but it seems like most people in Nepal don't even want to hear about Sikkim. Why is that??? Something thats beyond my comprehension. Or maybe just biwastha! |
| Biswo | Posted
on 16-May-02 10:39 AM
Dear NK: When I said 'decimate', I meant it literally. Totally literally. In my estimation, The Maoists have around 6,000-10,000 hardcore fighters. I talked to a guy who was a former friend of Baadal, who was underground leader ,for more than a decade, of the Maoist party and its ancestor parties(they changed their name so often) couple of months ago, and this thing I am pretty much sure. I do believe that the military has killed around 1,000 of them. That is around one tenth, so the word decimate. As for TOI or NPR or NYTimes, I have more respect for NPR and NYTimes. For instance, in NPR, you heard Kunda speaking, so whatever he says there , he can't possibly recant. For TOI, he denied and hey we don't know, and I believe him, probably he was misquoted. But he couldn't do that re NPR thing. We know we heard him speaking those words on NPR. TOI has consistently propounded South Block policy of hegemonism towards Nepal. The quote coming from Kunda the very day army was deployed (?) shocked me and shocked others too. Of course, He is free to make any comments. But he should also be ready to field the questions re his comments. I think democracy means at least that much. You can speak, but you have to be responsible too. For Ashu, I agree that we should be able to question the army. In Sajha.com we have done that.In another thread, there was a guy 'sage' and he was talking about military atrocities towards civilians. My understanding is this: nobody has right to kill/intimidate civilians in the name of quelling rebellion. The mandate for army is not to kill unarmed and innocent civilians. Those who wittingly, willingly, killed innocent people, killed unarmed potentially non-dangerous ex-rebels, should be considered criminal, and be brought to justice whether that is five years from now or ten years from now. See, I have no doubt that the atrocities comitted against innocent citizens during Kilshera-2 harmed our democracy a lot. People of Rolpa etc sided with Maoists, and we don't want army to do the same mistake. But I believe that RNA operates in a better way than Police. One of my friends was in Rukum or Salyan in the past as a medical personal. He told me he himself treated a Maoist ,without asking question, though he knew he was shot by Nepal Police.And another of my classmates was in Rolpa during last genral election as a military officer(lieutinent?). He told me there was no way they would harm civilians. "We are instructed against it!" was his word. I am not sure if that spirit is still in army. I think it is very important for us and for press to monitor military activities closely. The massacre, reported in Kantipur, of seven unarmed people in THULO SIRUBAARI(sindhupalchok?) was a horrible incident, and guilty should be brought to justice! And I support what Paschim says in this regard. You can clearly see that the trend is towards more openness in RNA too. To Suna: Sikkim and Indian intervention in Nepal is 'fantasy comes true' for appartchiks in South Block. My consistent position is this: I would prefer Prachanda's rule rather than seeing Indian military fighting in Nepal.It is OUR problem. |
| suna | Posted
on 16-May-02 01:05 PM
Biswo: I think you misunderstood me: - I meant how India weasled it's way into Sikkim. I don't see Sikkim intervening into Nepal's problem at all. Suna |
| Biswo | Posted
on 16-May-02 03:58 PM
I didn't mean Sikkimi intervention in Nepal, Suna. I mean making Nepal Sikkim is a 'fantasy come true' for dudes in South Block. That's not gonna happen. |
| ashu | Posted
on 16-May-02 10:40 PM
Biswo wrote: "[Kunda Dixit] is free to make any comments. But he should also be ready to field the questions re his comments. I think democracy means at least that much. You can speak, but you have to be responsible too." Well, Biswo. What can I say? I don't mean to come across as Mr. Dixit's hired hand or as a preacher, but when someone like him makes some comments, even 'stupid ones', let's say, that you happen to strongly disagree with (as in that Indian army's being in Nepal' case), then your public and very visible slamming of that person as a traitor (on account of his expressing those 'stupid' opinions) does not exactly convince me of the sincerity of your arguments above. I mean, it's one thing to challenge and argue against Mr. Dixit's statements with counter-arguments, questions and further thoughts. But it's completely another matter to accuse him (or anyone else who expresses opinions you don't agree with) of being a traitor, and then put him on the defensive on a personal level, thereby changing the the nature of debate to something trivial like "he-said-this-and-he-is-a-traitor", and his coming back to say "No, I was misquoted and [I-amd-not-a-traitor]" and so on and on. As you know, the word "traitor" is a loaded term, and I can only imagine the likes of BRB and his comrades using it all the time, along with their another favorite word "gaddhar" :-) Surely, you are wise enough to realize this distinction. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| Biswo | Posted
on 17-May-02 06:57 PM
Ashu: I definitely don't want to go back to this subject again and again, and I think you are putting word on my mouth. I didn't say him 'traitor'. I also understand that you are putting forward your own opinion, so there is no question of thinking you as somebody's hired hand. I standby my comment of that day. oohi Biswo :-) |
| ashu | Posted
on 19-May-02 11:52 PM
Biswo, Sure, I understand that you do not wish "to go back to this subject again and again". That's fine -- in and of itself. If you had just said that much and stopped at that, this kura sakki haal.thiyo. ********* But, no, since you, a busy man, are above reproach, what do you do? You throw the ball back at me, this time now softly accusing me for a) "putting word on (sic) [your] mouth", when b) "[you] did not [call Kunda a] traitor." You know, to show you your own words (the words, you said you stand by), I just searched your THAT posting here, but could not find it. Maybe San knows where it is, and can re-post it here so that others can see and read it and make decisions for themselves re: the TRUTH of your statements. But if you remember clearly, in that posting, you had criticized Dixit's statements (and doing that is fair enough!) but had ended that posting along the inflammatory lines of "down with such a traitor", with the 'traitor' word referring, (as per inductive reasoning) UNMISTAKABLY to Dixit and Dixit alone. If you had later said that you got carried away on that "traitor" point at the time, sure, I would have bought that, and would have been happy to drop this thing. But with this sort of continuing (and what I perceive to be) half-assed denial on your part, you have only helped me understand you even better (after that Safa Tempo and poetry.com discussions), and I thank you for that. Finally, just for your knowledge, these two statements a) "I stand by what I wrote" b) "I do not wish to revisit what I wrote [when others ask questions]" are CONTRADICTORY statements, and taken together, confuse your readers and erode your own credibility and do not inspire confidence about your commitments to enterain ideas. Then again, that's what this site is all about: Peer to Peer learning, even if some of that learning veers off to learning ABOUT peers :-) oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| Biswo | Posted
on 20-May-02 09:33 AM
>But if you remember clearly, in that posting, you had criticized Dixit's statements >(and doing that is fair enough!) but had ended that posting along the >inflammatory lines of "down with such a traitor", with the 'traitor' word referring, >(as per inductive reasoning) UNMISTAKABLY to Dixit and Dixit alone. OK, ashu, I do remember the thread clearly, and I am careful about my words. I can again challenge you to show 'down with such a traitor' in the posting. I also request san to provide you the link. It was a generalized statement without pointing at anyone. >If you had later said that you got carried away on that "traitor" point at the >time, sure, I would have bought that, and would have been happy to drop this >thing. Dream on, friend. I don't get "carried away", and I am just surprised that you want to go over that subject again and again. The fact is this: Mr Dixit himself came here, said 'he didnt' say those words'(the easiest way to undo your mistake in Nepali sajilo world of politics), and it is already months. I always stand by my words, I try to choose my words carefully almost everytime I write, but suppose tomorrow, and this is only suppose not any pun ok, one guy,with plenty of time in his hands and plainly unbalancedc,comes to me and ask me to 'sit down with him,and settle that matter and goes on infinitely about this topic, what can I say? "See, dude, I don't have time to go over that matter again and again, but I stand by my word!". There is no contradiction on my statements. I replied all your questions , and I don't care what the hell you think about this anymore. I am again challenging you to find word like "such a traitor" that you so gleefully writing now.Btw, if Mr Dixit wants to talk about that here, I will be ready, but to others, whether hired hands or not, I have no interest to continue the discussion and answering questions that I answered a lot of times already. This is not peer-to-peer learning. If you remember , more than three thread with cumulative postings exceeding more than 100 were spent already. What you are saying are repeatations and lies("such a traitor" thing!), not learning. |
| san | Posted
on 20-May-02 10:01 AM
The Thread in question had been archived, but I have re-imported it back to the live database; you can find it HERE Thanks, San |
| ashu | Posted
on 20-May-02 11:21 PM
Biswo, I just checked the link provided by San. Your "down with traitors" does seem to refer, as per inductive reasoning, to Mr. Dixit. Now, you can jump and down, quarrel over the semantics, deny the basis of this inductive reasoning and do all that naatak. But who cares? Your only defense, and a weak one at that, seems to be: "Well, I did not actually say that Dixit is a traitor". But who cares about such a weasel defense too? The larger point (which you do not seem to have grasped at all) is this: In a public, open debate, to throw such an incendiary, inflammatory, loaded word to characterize somebody, anybody -- even if one STRONGLY disagrees with that person -- is to POISON the debate and kill it. Only the Maoists, who are so goddamn certain that they know the truth and that they do not need to know any more, KILL debates by calling their intellectual opponents "traitors" and "gaddhar" and so on. Besides, with all due respect, who are you to even dare refer to other Nepalis -- whether Kunda Dixit or Ram Bdr. Tamang or anyone else -- as "traitors"? Does your love for Nepal outweigh that of others? Is your concern for Nepal heavier than that of others? Are prople who express skepticism about our narrowly nationalistic ways which you do not support fit to be "down" for being, well "traitors"? Come on!! Finally, you style yourself, as you have written up above, as someone open to ideas, yet I have seen you behave in ways that would make a Maoist proud. It is this inconsistency of your thought process (the inconsistency which I have encountered before in discussions related to Safa Tempo and psuedo-achievements re: poetry.com ) that I am now hammering at with all my force. OK, agreed: Not a nice, pleasant or even friendly thing to do, to be sure. But a right thing to do, to help us all be honest and consistent. That said, let me assure you that I myself am NOT above any of this, and that one of the reasons I like posting stuff in public is that In have found this to be a useful useful tool to keep oneself honest and consistent -- a STRUGGLE that all of us being humans continue to have. Finally, I would welcome you or anyone else anytime to read my postings critically, and help me expose the inconsistencies that I might be carrying or displaying without being very aware about them. I am open to learning, all the time. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| Biswo | Posted
on 21-May-02 09:33 AM
Ashu: OK, last week was my final exams week. So I was pretty BUSY. I am , as you know, willing to talk to you if you try to be reasonable and consistent. After all, you can be a darned good partner when it comes to debate. First of all, let me ask you one question: with all due respect for your intelligent and honesty(yes, this too), I want you to be clear about this thing: have you ever published anything in Himal, are publishing anything there, expecting any job there, or expecting anything that would make you look as a prejudiced debator in this case? See, in that case, you will be viewed as a person who has incentive to go back, revisit this thread again and again, and your integrity won't be unassailable. If not let's go back. First of all "Down with traitors" is a generic stmt, just like 'Chor ko khuttaa taan'. It is a lot different than "Down with such a traitor". A traitor, Such a traitor refers to a single person, mentioned above, while traitors refer to every body who breaches confidence thereby endangering some stated miission. Did I call for lynching of Kunda? No. It was an intellectual criticism which most of the readers seem to agree . Do I have right to criticise Mr Dixit ? You decide it. Frankly, despite your 'openness' to criticism, you become snappy when I criticise your acquaintees.Your argument ranges from 'you can't criticise this because you don't know..' to 'who the hell are you to do this ( just in this thread)'. Is this what you call an argument? You know who I am, and I don't have to tell you who I am. When the thread was not there, you said I said Kunda traitor, and now when the thread is back, your point is 'you said something like that'. Your statement changed a lot, but in the meantime, your points got unravelled like beads of pearls after snapping its thread. But in your arrogant covering of your arguments, you have no sorry to say. Now, to the Maoist problem and Indian intervention, I value the points from people like Prakash Jwala(MP from Rolpa), Raju Adhikari(My hostel mate in China from Dang), Paschim (from Maoist heartland in Gorkha), Hahooguru(from Kaski where Maoist rose and fell) and a lot others, but not to armchair intellectuals who just sit down in KTM and try to preach. I know some Maoist fighters, and I know innocent civilians who were killed in this senseless rebellion, they were all right from my village. When I said immature kids are killing people, I said that based on my first hand observation, and to tell you frankly, very few people can claim they have more personal knowledge about Maoist than me . Do you know how much relieved people were when RNA was first deployed? Kunda reportedly said "RNA would not be able to contain rebels" that day (which he later denied) and went on to suggest Indian intervention in Nepal. You know how chilling that statement was? You are out of your mind if you think Nepali people will accept Indian military presence in Nepal.I have always said this I would rather be ruled by Prachanda than to accept Indian military in Nepal because there is no dictator who lived more than people's disgruntlement.And that was the point I was trying to suggest when I warned all dimwits not to cross the line and compromise national interest in their statements.Kunda's that statement was vague, it gave no reason why Nepali RNA shouldn't be able to defeat rebels, it was plain speculation, it was tantamount to telling proud parents of nascent baby,"I think this boy will die within a year " , it was devoid of any intellectual reasoning, and Kunda rightly used his judgement, and denied the statement, even in sajha.com. Did I go after him after he issued denial statement? No. This proves I was not against him personally. And what kind of debate are you offering now? You are saying " I make a Maoist proud". What is this? This is sort of name calling that can't be considered intellectual. Didn't I respond to your questions tens of times in more than a couple of threads at that time? Ashu, you make incoherent points, you have no point at all, in fact, and to prove that you actually meant something, You resort to extreme examples. These are cheap shots rather than informed arguements. I hope you will apologize for your rash statement. Since I will be on a week-long vaccation since the night of 24th, I hope to wrap this debate up by then, or we will have to continue our discussion after June 2nd. Have a good day. |
| Kali Prasad | Posted
on 21-May-02 05:42 PM
Ashu: For the fallacy of using an Inductive method in a discussion or in that matter in a scientific process, read a book by a great Philosopher Karl R Popper entitled "The LOGIC OF SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERY". You will know why inductive reasoning is not a good thing to use in argument. |
| ashu | Posted
on 21-May-02 11:05 PM
Biswo, Nice to revisit this thread again. You now additionally ASSUME and hint that I am a prejudiced debater. Brilliant!! You previously thought that I had too much time in my hand :-) At the rate these laughable and extraneous assumptions are progressing on your part, what's next, Biswo? You know, when arguments run out, when logic fails to deliver, it's a standard practice for some Nepalis to try to divert the debate to narrow personal terms. Sorry, Biswo, I won't fall into that trap; I'll stick to the fundamental questions. So, go ahead. You can keep on personalizing this kura-kani at your own expense, by hurling all kinds of assumptions at me. We'll just end up learning more about the nature of your upbringing that way. Back, then, to the drawing board: My point is simple: Yes, by all means, disagree with Kunda or whoever else. Any time you want. Strongly, vehemently, whatever. Does NOT matter whether I know them or not. But do NOT put your opponents on the defensive by hurling loaded adjectives at them. Hurling loaded, highly-charged adjectives at others is the most khattam, jhoor and Maoist-like way of carrying on a debate in public. You can do that, of course, even generically, but then be prepared to face the fact you then inspire very little confidence about your own so-called commitment to open discussions. There's a trade-off here. That time, Kunda Dixit was portrayed as one of your "traitors". My attitude is: If you are not questioned and challenged about that now, who's going to be your next "traitor" in this public forum? And why should the rest of us take your generic statements lying down? At the very least, asking you blunt and straightforward questions NOW is a measure I am taking to make you stop and think through the implications of your statement. Hopefully, another Nepali later will not be portrayed as a traitor :-) Besides, more fundamentally, yes, it's one thing to disagree with others, but who are you to be even to be hinting, signalling or indirectly pointing -- even generically -- to other Nepalis as "traitors"? I hope my points are clear. ************** Kaliprasad, In Nepal and among Nepalis, people rarely use deductive arguments in public. Induction, then, by default, becomes a method of understanding who's saying what, even if that understanding is less precise. This is where matters of judgment, intuition, experience and good sense -- as opposed to pure logic and pure logic alone -- come into play. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 21-May-02 11:42 PM
To, Biswo and Ashu, It is time to switch to new thread. Why? NK asked ma last time that don't write Mountain to justify, and reply in precise words in a few sentence, she further added it: because KURO RA KULO JATA LAGE PANI JANCHA. |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 21-May-02 11:43 PM
(continued...from prev. posting) Same here, the debate between you two. If you continue with mountain of TEXTs, you are not going to end up this topic. Now, we readers are to judge you guys, I guess we have heard enough on this topic. Good peoples should know where to stop, because in real number there is nothing exact number, but, for all practical purposes we use TOLERANCE, make our life easier. Similarly, its time for you both to decide a practical tolerance limit, so that we don't get bored reading your justification, whether 1.00000000001 is what we are talking or 1.00001 is what we are talking. In real world, I consider both of you have justified yourself, and if you continue this topic further, you are going to prove whoever continues further is HYPOCRITE, high PRIDE bhako mancho, and egoist nothing more, because you are not being practical. So, my personal suggestion is to stop here and move on new threads. If you go further ahead in this discussion, I can say that you will finally end in verbal gali galos, nothing more. Its time to stop. Regards. HG |
| Trai | Posted
on 22-May-02 12:12 AM
hahoo guruji, one thing (i'll try to make it short) *disagreements/dounts/misunderstandings need to be cleared. And neither ashu nor biswo are forcing us to read their posts. We read at our own discretion. and this being a open, public forum, they both have their rights to post as many messages as they want on this topic** aani guruji le pani ali choto message lekheko bhaye bhai halcha ni, kasto laamo message lekheko to say: 1. We are bored of you guys' posts on the same topic 2. This discussion won't take you guys anywhere yetti lekhna guruji le: Spent 20 mins (probably) Sheer waste of electricity, time and effort Trailokya |
| bagmati1 | Posted
on 22-May-02 12:19 AM
I agree with Hahoo guru. Both of you are good writers. If you don't stop discussion on this topic now, it will be only tussle between ego of two person. Readers know that there are enough discussions on this topic so that both of you have already justified your reasons. Every person could not be 100% accurate in selection of words in their writings or there could be misinterpretation in meaning of words what the writer is using in another sense. We all may use our common sense while understanding them. I don't think intellectual writers like bishwo/ashu and sajha visotors are lack of thid capability. So it will be better to stop discussion on this topic now. Hahooguru is right. |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 22-May-02 12:43 AM
Let me cite (again) why do we have conflicts (on words): Casagrande a former Harvard to MIT Professor in my profession and pioneer of Liquefaction. He gave 3 reasons why have conflict on words: 1. we use different words to mean same phenomenon. 2. we use same word to mean two different phenomenon. 3. forgot the third reason . . . . . . Well, thanks to Trai ji, for summarizing my looooooong posting into very shrt .s (.s=points). Bagmati also deserve thanks for agreeing with me. Regards. HG |
| Voodoo Nut | Posted
on 22-May-02 01:35 AM
>to justify, and reply in precise words in a >few sentence, Of all people, Hahoo guru is saying the above line!!! Hahooguru, who posts long and rambling messages is now advising others to be precise and reply in few sentences.. This is funny!! |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 22-May-02 06:30 AM
Voodoo Nut, Pleases go back and read those lines again. You will realize that the words were not told by me, but, I was suggested by NK, our Kabetri Mitra here at Sajha.com. She asked me to be short. Are Mitra ma afoo loooooong lekhne bhako le she suggested me to be short and precise to answer her questions. Ma tyati murkha ta chhaina ni ho, so that, you can catch me behaving my double standard in postings. Well, I do have double / tripple lives in many circumstances, but, not so visible and catchable and you failed here. I challenge you to catch my double standards and you will get prize of "My apology and Muri Muri Dhanya Bad". This time its pity for your misjudgements. Read it as follows again: NK asked ma last time that don't write Mountain to justify, and reply in precise words in a few sentence, she further added it: because KURO RA KULO JATA LAGE PANI JANCHA. HG |
| ashu | Posted
on 22-May-02 07:52 AM
Hi Hahoo-guru, Thank you for your sensible advice. Having made my points abundantly clear for all to understand, and with absolutely no interest in indulging in some blame-game, I have NO further interest now to pursue this matter ad infinitum ad nauseum. My only and steadfast hope is that we all strive hard to argue for and against ideas and thoughts, WITHOUT negatively and personally and even generically characterizing other people holding/expressing those ideas with LOADED adjectives and terms. That's all. Easier said than done, to be sure. Still, no harm in trying hard . . . for all of us. oohi ashu ktm,nepal |
| NK | Posted
on 22-May-02 08:40 AM
Phew! Can we now stop this thread right here and right this minute? Let's move on sathi ho! Hahooguri dai, thank you for making this clear. But, I am still curious/wondering how is the RNA fighting this war and What kind of role India is going to play. That was the point of this thread anyway. [back to the salt mine....] |
| suna | Posted
on 22-May-02 09:01 AM
hey NK I was just noticing something that has become a most common trend here on Sajha, and one that makes me joyous. As long as we've known, females have always been the ones who have been portrayed as the ones being repetitive, bickering, and quarrelsome. But here on Sajha, its the contrary and hey...I'm not complaining. Please keep it up guys as I hate gender specific stigmas!! :) But then men call it constructive arguments, peer reviews (bashing), and all those umm whatchamacallit words. I call it BICKERING! cheers! (NK, dun call on me now, I HAD to point it out) |
| Biswo | Posted
on 22-May-02 10:12 AM
Hi all: As you all know, my first point was always this: let's stop this damn thing here. This is not an intellectual debate. Ashu always thinks that the best time to fight an opponent is when the opponent is reluctant. When I said I was no longer interested in pursuing this old thing, he came with a lot of sarcasms and insinuation. And now this same person is saying this: >Having made my points abundantly clear for all to understand, and with >absolutely no interest in indulging in some blame-game, I have NO further >interest now to pursue this matter ad infinitum ad nauseum. When I asked him if he has any affiliation with Himal, When I asked him if it was appropriate to compare me with "Maoists", When he was wantonly assuming I was using "Such a traitor " type of words, this was his answer. Do I consider him a hire hand? No. I don't think Mr Dixit himself has any interest in pursuing this matter any further. But I think Ashu needs to disclose his financial or professional relation, if any, right now, because he pushed this matter too far.And our discussion in light of disclosure of those relationships will be more illuminating to our readership. Here is a guy who compared me with "Maoists" , insinuating me about my upbringing,and accusing me of using "LOADED" words. Mr Tiwari has no remorse to compare his opponents with Maoists when his purpose serves. Now , devoid of arguments, readership firmly opposing his brinkmanship, Mr Ashu thinks I am the one who is telling him this and that. No, Ashu, I personally respect your intelligence. But I have to be cautious when you push something too far. Right in this thread, when my final exam was going on, didn't I request you to stop this thread right here? What was your reaction then? You loved to lecture me. It's not me, man, who loves brinkmanship in discussion.Also, You are the one who thinks people need to disclose their affiliation with someone especially when defending/promoting something, for the sake of transparency. Yet, now,when I ask you for the same, no answer, only tergiversation. |
| Voodoo Nut | Posted
on 22-May-02 10:45 AM
Let's wait for another one from Ashu then another one from Biswo then another one from Ashu then another one from Biswo then another one from Ashu then another one from Biswo then another one from Ashu then another one from Biswo ... ad infinitum since we all know that the last person to put in the last word 'wins' the argument. Alright let's watch how predictable these educated and smart and knowledgeable gentlemen are. On another note, how would this debate continue if it were in the confines of a private discussion instead of a public discussion? That would be an interesting experiment. Are we as posters more likely to argue more fiercely in a public discussion than in a private discussion? If so, does it prove that it's all about showing others how good we are? Just my two shillings |
| NK | Posted
on 22-May-02 11:11 AM
Let's drink to that sistah! Prost! :) |
| bagmati1 | Posted
on 22-May-02 11:42 AM
who will win ? girija or deuba ? Is Congress Party's charge against government logical about emergency extension ? OR there is infighting between deuba and girija's EGO ?? |
| villagevoice | Posted
on 22-May-02 12:01 PM
Democracy has devised lots of checks and balances. For instance, the judiciary holds a rampant MPs in check, and MPs can bring down the government, and there's the fress, provided it's responsible itself, holds both responsible, etc. But the democracy works best when the citizenry is educated; or at least follow certain norms. For eg., an ageing Nelson Mandela decided to step down to make way for a new generation of leaders; Gandhi never got into the political ball game; Gore, who arguably received more popular vote than Bush, could have dragged the whole country into turmoil if he had insisted on lashing out at Bush instead of giving up at a certain point. What do you do about a Girija Prasad Koirala, 80 (?), and still going strong. Food for thought |
| bagmati1 | Posted
on 22-May-02 12:18 PM
...... The battle between girija and ganeshman has not ended yet. (May 22, 1992 10:45 PM - 5:45 GMT Jestha 08 2049 B.S. | Baishakh Sukla Ekadashi Tithi. ) ............ The battle between girija gut(74)and bhattarai group(36) still continue(May 22, 1994 10:45 PM - 5:45 GMT Jestha 08 2051 B.S. | Baishakh Sukla Ekadashi Tithi. ) ........The battle between the government(bhattarai) and the party(girija), it appears, has not ended yet. nepalnews.com br May 22 (Last Updated: Wednesday, May 22, 2000 10:45 PM - 5:45 GMT Jestha 08 2057 B.S. | Baishakh Sukla Ekadashi Tithi. ) LATEST NEWS.... .....The battle between the government and the party, it appears, has not ended yet. nepalnews.com br May 22 (Last Updated: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 10:45 PM - 5:45 GMT Jestha 08 2059 B.S. | Baishakh Sukla Ekadashi Tithi. ) |
| SIWALIK | Posted
on 22-May-02 01:30 PM
Kali prasad jee, do not base your ideas on Popper's book or ideas about scientific progress. You might also want to read Thomas Kuhn and Imre Lakatos. Popper is not the last word on what is a scientific rasoning. As for me, both inductive and deductive reasoning form a base for a scientific endeavor. |
| Biswo | Posted
on 22-May-02 02:19 PM
Hi: I think Deuba made a horrible mistake by dissolving parliament. First of all, his strength was in parliament, not in party. Now, that parliament is dissolved, he is almost certainly not likely to get NC ticket for MP, am I right? Worse, he is likely to be expelled from NC. I am trying to find a word to support Girija and NC now, but it is so difficult. They made everything horrible in Nepal, they messed up everything. But, at least, they represented a functioning party, a system of democracy. A lot of people tried to quell insurgency by suspending parliament and constitution. The Sultan of Brunei, The president of Peru,etc. I think though going to public is a welcome move, it is not good for nation's nascent democracy, at least, it doesn't strengthen our system. I don't blame Girija for this dissolution. He is a bad person, but he is doing everything constitutionally now. Anyway, Girija isn't a person one can simply wish away. Btw, I predict that if a fair election is held, UML is gonna win.I am tired of NC and its rotten politics, and I believe so are a lot of Nepalese people. This latest dissolution of parliament is another contretemp for democracy.Maoists leadership must be happy at this moment. --- Btw, so no longer emergency , haina? If parliament doesn't ratify the emergency, it is gonna be annulled automatically. And hey, don't blame the king. He hasn't overreached his authority yet. |
| Trai | Posted
on 22-May-02 10:02 PM
>Hi: > >I think Deuba made a horrible mistake by >dissolving parliament. First of all, his >strength was in parliament, not in party. >Now, that parliament is dissolved, he >is almost certainly not likely to get NC >ticket for MP, am I right? Worse, he is >likely to be expelled from NC. Biswoji, I am not that good of a diplomat, so let's put words frankly and honestly, you are wrong here. Deuba's strength was in the party, not in the parliament because he and his supporters are all from NC. I don't think the congress is that gaye-gujreko and khattam to not to give ticket to Deuba. If Deuba doesn't get the ticket, then he will form another party, and win election (that is, if we hacve election). And if he is expelled from the party, it will be a graceful exit, and this always works to the politicans' advantage. >I am trying to find a word to support Girija >and NC now, but it is so difficult. They >made everything horrible in Nepal, they >messed up everything. But, at least, >they represented a functioning party, a >system of democracy. I agree with you here but if I were you, i would say "dys-functional party" instead of "functional party". >A lot of people tried to quell insurgency by >suspending parliament and constitution. >The Sultan of Brunei, The president of Peru, >etc. I think though going to public >is a welcome move, it is not good for nation' >s nascent democracy, at least, it >doesn't strengthen our system. I don't blame >Girija for this dissolution. He is a bad >person, but he is doing everything >constitutionally now. Anyway, Girija isn't a > person one can simply wish away. What system? 12 years, and no significant change(s)! You don't blame Girija for the dissolution, I do, and many people in Nepal do, if the congressis had shown "eka-badhyata" (unity) and wholeheartedly supported Deuba, then this day wouldn't have come. They didn't and the whole country is in mess. >Btw, I predict that if a fair election is >held, UML is gonna win.I am tired of NC >and its rotten politics, and I believe so >are a lot of Nepalese people. This latest >dissolution of parliament is another >contretemp for democracy.Maoists >leadership must be happy at this moment. IF UML wins then it will be even worse than the Congressis. UML is boliko-thegan nabhayeko party and nepali janatas are sick and tired of rhetorics such as "alochanatmak samarthan" etc. etc. etc. So, no, the UML won't win the election either. And I think, the dissolution is the best thing to happen to Nepal and "shishu prajatantra", yo shisu prajatantra ki ta aaba marcha ki jhan baliyo huncha. And I don't think the Maoists are happy because they can't send letters to the MPs and the leaders of opposition groups, so they have lost their medium. Would you be happy if you loose your tounge? NO. >Btw, so no longer emergency , haina? If >parliament doesn't ratify the emergency, >it is gonna be annulled automatically. Hoina. Aaba "adhyadeesh" jari huncha ra teen mahina lambincha. Tyaspachi feri arko "adhyadeesh". >And hey, don't blame the king. He hasn't >overreached his authority yet. Why blame the King? Shri Panch bata pradhan mantri ko sallah ra sifaris ma samsad bighatan gai baxeko cha. Trai Too much caffeine this morning. I am overcharged. |
| Biswo | Posted
on 23-May-02 09:53 AM
Hi Trai: >Deuba's strength was in the party, not in the parliament because he and his >supporters are all from NC. Well, Deuba was supported by 63MPs just before his move according to kantipur of today's. He was definitely stronger than Koiralas in parliamentary group. Party? I have no illusion that with around 80% vote that voted for his presidency, Girija is still the most powerful man in NC. NC Central Comittee just expelled Deuba. So, I think Deuba made a mistake of dismantling the structure where he was stonger. >I don't think the congress is that gaye-gujreko and khattam to not to give ticket >to Deuba. I am surprised at your belief in Congress. At times, Congress can be more gaye- gujreko and khattam.Anyway, as you know, Deuba is already expelled from party. >If Deuba doesn't get the ticket, then he will form another party, and win election >(that is, if we hacve election). And if he is expelled from the party, it will be a >graceful exit, and this always works to the politicans' advantage. Graceful exit? I am not sure. If he forms another party, and will run with electoral symbol like 'golbheda' 'charkha' 'bharyang' in stead of 'rukh', he will be in great disadvantage. >What system? 12 years, and no significant change(s)! You don't blame Girija for >the dissolution, I do, and many people in Nepal do, if the congressis had >shown "eka-badhyata" (unity) and wholeheartedly supported Deuba, then this >day wouldn't have come. They didn't and the whole country is in mess. I don't support Girija, but this dissolution is not his deed. Those who run the government need understand that in democracy they will be challenged, and scrutinized by a lot of people.I never heard Girija asking for this dissolution. If Deuba had confidence of his MPs, he could just ask for another vote of confidence and show that, and keep on running the government. House of Representatives is one of those last institutes we had which was voted by people. Now, all we got is almost-expired local bodies.What is there in the name of democracy now? No voted body to single out. >IF UML wins then it will be even worse than the Congressis. UML is boliko-thegan >nabhayeko party and nepali janatas are sick and tired of rhetorics such >as "alochanatmak samarthan" etc. etc. etc. So, no, the UML won't win the >election either. I never supported UML in the past. But in democracy, one needs to understand what opposition means. They are alternative to the ruling party.So, I think it is very likely that UML will win this election , if held fairly and on time. I am not supporting all their dilly dallying, weaknesses by saying this, but even if they work as efficiently as Buddadev Bhattacharya of West Bengal, it is gonna be fine for rightnow. >yo shisu prajatantra ki ta aaba marcha ki jhan baliyo huncha Nobody can kill this 'shishu prajatantra'. Those who try will be condemned to opprobrium in the logs of historians in future. Those who try to gobble up this democracy won't be spared in the next revolution. If Nepali population ever have to fight for another 2007,or 2046, the outcome will be unpredictably harsh for the perpetrators.This system is here to stay.No body, no king, no senapati, no congressi or UML or Maoists, can simply wish away this. Let's see how coming three months will be. |