| Username |
Post |
| Trai |
Posted
on 22-May-02 09:22 PM
Paschim jyu,
If you have time, please go back to the thread, war and peace. And if its not asking much, read and re-read your point no. 1, and my replies to it. Just that point. Its very interesting. There I had raised a question what happens if Deuba dissolves the parliament and forms a small cabinet which will have people regardless of thir political idedology(-ies). Deuba is now thinking along the same line. Today's Kantipur reports that the chances of Deuba reducing the cabinet and including people from various "sectors" cannot be ruled out.
Does this mean the leaders read sajha.com these days? :-)
Leaders reading sajha.com= gorkha daxin bahu (dosro) to san.
Trai
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 23-May-02 12:43 AM
Interesting moments. Sadly, I'm very busy at work - crucial meetings and travels - so I don't have time to discuss extensively. It's a pity because what's happening is Grade A discussion material. The news I read just 2 hours ago came as a surprise, and I couldn't resist visiting Sajha. Also saw responses to my last posting on "Politics and Hope" which I'll respond to in the next 2 weeks after my work-load lightens.
But on the latest development, I must say something:
Trai, I wanted Deuba to form a small cabinet to crush terror and spearhead development with a missionary zeal WITH the presence of a parliament. So I said he can only induct people in his cabinet who are MPs. You suggested dissolving parliament and having others also. I said "a parliamentary democracy, by definition, can't do without a parliament...it can be dissolved but fresh elections for a new parliament has to be called immediately". This is what it has come to. Deuba resorted to his ultimate prime ministerial prerogative by dissolving the House and calling for formation of new parliament in November.
Others interested in what I and Trai discussed, here's the link:
http://sajha.com/sajha/html/openthread.cfm?forum=2&ThreadID=4737&show=all#22341
Now, is what Deuba did legal and constitutional?
Yes.
Can it be contested in the Court?
Yes, but on the basis of "najir", it's likely that Deuba's move will be ratified.
Do I like what Deuba did?
No. The parliament should have served its full term. My consistent call has been to form a small cabinet and focus on crushing terror with the parliamentary oversight in place . Although the National Assembly will continue to exist, it's only a poor substitute. Because they processed the discussions on emergency extension too late and without forethought, it ended up becoming an issue of "prestige". When non-substantive issues motivate the debate, the outcome is unpleasant. Deuba should have begun the entire process well before he left for his trips to the US and the UK. But following Deuba's successful trips to the US and the UK, the Koirala faction should also have tempered its stance. I personally think the emergency should not have been extended, but on the basis of existing anti-terror laws, the army operations should have been continued with added vigor.
But is Deuba serious about ridding the country of terror?
Yes, and this is what is important. With the international support, I hope he will be able to bring this mess to a "logical conclusion". The halla of talks didn't convincingly rest on the precondition that arms had to be surrendered. Let's make no mistake: there can be no peace in Nepal until Maoists are stripped of arms either through, i) killing while in combat, ii) capture when not in combat, or iii) voluntary surrender. In a democracy, the state should be the only entity with monopolized violence that is legitimate.
What next?
If Deuba's move is unchallenged, he should advance to restore peace, and create an environment for elections to be held by November. Possible? Yes. Elections can be held in phases with tight monitoring by the police/army. Everyone doubted seriously Girija's ability to hold national elections in 1998. He accomplished that task well.
What if Deuba plays foul?
If he seeks to postpone the polls under one pretext or another, he should and will be ousted (like Estrada in the Philippines), and an interim government, mandated to hold elections soonest, will replace him.
Are there indications that he will play foul - become the next Tulsi Giri?
No. This is a simple man who fought for democracy for 25 years before 1990, with around 10 of those years in prison, when his ability to speak was impaired by electrical torture. He defied high profile temptations from the Panchayat. This time he was cornered and punched hard by Girija. But he lacked foresight too, and ego and bitterness played a big part reflecting his own weakness, and why he can never be the greatest of leaders. But he can still be a good one. Now, he's exercising his democratic prerogative and so far playing by the rules. The army and the palace may have exercised backroom influence, but they have not crossed the line. And, Deuba, albeit weak, is in charge.
Will the Congress split?
Probably not. They've been through worse. But if they split, the UML is likely to form the next government which is fine. I have a perverse desire to live under a nakkali "laal-raaj".
Bottomline?
Deuba's move could have been avoided, but in the larger scheme of politics, it's not a big deal. Given the situation we are in regarding Maoist terror, if he exercises this democratic prerogative well, it may pay off in the long run. But do I wish he had done things differently? Yes. But now that he has done what he has done will I support him? Conditionally yes. The condition is that he will do what he says he will do: i) seeks to bring the Maoist terror to a logical conclusion - a clean operation to break their back conclusively followed by talks to offer them a safe-landing, and ii) starts preparing for the November elections right away or after the court dispute is settled which is certain to be filed. EC should expand its drive of instituting photo IDs in more constituencies to tame proxy voting.
Final words?
Democracy is here to stay. On my part, I'll be harboring no illusion about our system being derailed by Deuba or anyone else extending his stay in power to 2-3 years like Musharraf with the tacit backing of the army and the palace. He is a pretty sincere man with NO courage to play foul. You need guts to be nasty.
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| leviathan. |
Posted
on 23-May-02 10:44 PM
paschim dai, u have become something of an institution here and i always enjoy reading your insightful comments.. i agree that the legaility and the consitutionality of deupas decision is not under question, but making such a monumental decision without consulting his cabinet was pretty irresponsible.
i also agree that serious crackdown on the maoists is necessary and your paraphrasing of weber's (i think it was) words on the legitimate monopoly of voilence is apt. but plunging the country into further uncertainity is hardly the way to go about achieving this goal.
some parts of your assessements that i do not quite share:
Re: Elections "Possible? Yes. Elections can be held in phases with tight monitoring by the police/army. Everyone doubted seriously Girija's ability to hold national elections in 1998. He accomplished that task well."
---> I do not share your optimism for successful elections so soon. Yes they can be done in phases, but the presence of the army amidst ballot boxes does not really inspire notions of a free and fair poll. Furthermore, I fail to see how people in really remote parts of maoist stricken districts are going to get a chance to cast their votes. Given the fact that the army has not been able to penetrate terrorist strongholds, the plan to hold elections in such places is nothing short of being a farce. Additionally, I think that your analogy of this proposed midterm with Koirala's declaration 4 years back is an unfair one. It is painfully clear how different the circumstances were then and now.
Re: Bottomline
Deuba's move could have been avoided, but in the larger scheme of politics, it's not a big deal.
---> The security of the country is in shambles, foreign aid agencies and donor countries are crying for stability, the common man is disillusioned about democracy and against such a bleak backdrop, PM Deupa, without even consulting his cabinet colleagues who backed him to the hilt, declares midterm polls. The annual budget will be passed through ordinance, which basically means that whatever the PM wants can basically pass through as the parliament is no longer there to check it. Whatever little confidence there was in the economy is no doubt weakened, and worse, no one has the foggiest idea what is going to happen next. The country cannot afford what is going on. I do not know about you, but I think that this is a pretty big deal.
Yes, the congress messed up in not allowing the PM to extend the state of emergency but Deupa acted even more immaturely by declaring elections. Had he accepted the CWCs decision for now (which as a good party member he should have) and had the turn of events taken a more violent turn (as they most probably would have) Congress would be on its knees asking Deupa for an extention of the state of emergency. Instead, Deupa in an episode of foolhardy obstinacy further aggrandized the situation and outdid his party in terms of stupidity.
I really do hope that polls take place by 6 months and some stability ensues to rid this madness. But from what I see right now, it is very very hard to be optimistic.
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 24-May-02 02:39 AM
Leviathan, spoke to daddy recently, did you? :)
Okay, quick reactions:
When I wrote the above yesterday, I didn't know that Deuba had not consulted with the full cabinet. I assumed he did. What Ramsharan Mahat et al. revealed later thus came as a surprise. No doubt, it was wrong, stupid, and imprudent on Deuba's part.
On election, I was in Nepal in 1998 following very closely events that led up to it. I was also deeply engaged in briefing foreign election observers. My assessment for a "possibility" of holding elections in the next 6 months is based on certain assumed developments in the next 4 months. They may prove to be unrealistic in which case we are in for a crisis with the king having to resort to "Dhara 182" of our Sambidhan. But I don't want to pre-judge.
What is overwhelmingly influencing my assessment of this episode though is how everyone, especially NC, has shockingly underestimated (by perverse choice) the challenge of eliminating Maoist terror. I wouldn't have extended the emergency, but also would not have done anything to demoralize the army and the police who are out there taking bullets for democracy. It's tragic to see the likes of Girija and Madhav swaying to the phony assurances from utterly unreliable terrorists. But as I said above, while I am not happy with Deuba for having resorted to this last option when more palatable options were open, I hope history will be kind to him if he pulls off this imprudent but legal gamble. If he had ulterior motives, and was influenced by dirty forces, well, he's dead politically. And I'll be the first one to write an unflattering obituary.
But let's wait. Not easy times, I agree, but in the larger scheme, and in the broader sweep of history, I'd still like to think that this would pass as 'not a big deal'. I could be wrong as I so frequently am. But recall that I have my biases in favor of a system of a directly elected PM, where the supremacy of the prime ministerial prerogative exists. Let people and history judge, like we are doing now, how wisely that is exercised, but I do believe in special executive powers for the elected PM.
p.s. That phrase was borrowed from, well, The Leviathan! It was by Hobbes, not Weber, who was writing in 1651 in the context of another civil war, in England, when tensions between the King and the Parliament were equally dramatic.
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| Kid Flex |
Posted
on 24-May-02 02:54 AM
Mr. Paschim: You use too many words. You live in an ivory tower and your assesments are most appropriate for the seminar room. You are critical of many leaders in Nepal without giving them due respect. Real life events do not transpire as they do in history books.
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| HUH |
Posted
on 24-May-02 04:31 AM
KATHMANDU, May 24 – A day after Nepali Congress (NC) president Girjia Prasad Koirala urged ministers to resign from the cabinet within three days, 33 ministers have responded defiantly and accused the party leadership of conspiring the downfall of the government and trying to split the party.
The ministers, which included Minister for Water Resources Chirinjivi Wagle, Home Minister Khum Bahadur Khadka and Minister of Information and Communications Jayaprakash Prasad Gupta among others, in a letter addressed to Koirala said, “the party with the intent of expelling the Prime Minister issued a letter seeking clarification within 24 hours and thus planting the seeds of division of the party.”
“After the suspension of the Prime Minister from the party, the process of splitting the party is being given more impetus. At a time when the country is facing grave crisis, drawing lines of divisions within the ruling party is walking away from the responsibility towards the country,” the letter further adds.
The ministers have also justified their decision to register the motion in parliament seeking extension of emergency for another six months. They said the government had done so in order to protect the people and property as well as improve the security situation in the country.
“Decision of the Central Working Committee to withdraw the motion had serious adverse effects on the workings of the parliament to protect people and the national security. Under the circumstances Prime Minister Deuba had no other alternative but to seek fresh mandate from the people,” the letter argued
The Ministers also urged the party leadership to withdraw all action against the Prime Minister and immediately stop activities that will lead to splitting of the party.
The cabinet response follows a veiled threat by Koirala yesterday against members of the cabinet who do not heed his call for resignation from the cabinet. In a statement issued yesterday, Koirala also accused Deuba of conspiracy against democracy in the country by dissolving the House of Representatives on Wednesday night. (rk)
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 24-May-02 05:39 AM
Kid Flex Sir, new kid on the board? Toying with the usual trick of being provocative with inaccurate observations to get a little attention?
1. Verbose: I cover all my ground. I think before I write every single sentence lest I have to defend them later. You have the choice not to read my postings if they annoy you.
2. Ivory Tower: From a little known primary school in a poor Gorkha village to an established grad school in rich Massachusetts, from travels across 40 of Nepal's 75 districts, and 20 countries abroad, as someone who knows the victims as well as the perpetrators of Maoist brutality by first name, the worst insult you can hurl at me is to say I'm out-of-touch. Please. But I'd have taken the insult with gratitude if you had told me with what authority of realism you speak, and why and which assessmentof mine suited a seminar more? FYI, I live in a communist country - nothing else makes you more realistic about options in life and politics, if you know what I mean, which I doubt.
3. Criticism: I am probably the most "sympathetic" poster on this board to both the existing multi-party system, with deep respect for its history of struggle and some of its leaders. Clearly you've not read or understood my other postings on these themes.
4. History IS collection of real events of the past.
I really value criticisms that are constructive. But ill-intentioned inaccurate flak, please keep it to yourself.
----
Others, I'm sorry. I'm just having a bad day.
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| KG |
Posted
on 24-May-02 08:37 AM
Paschimji:
I have read many of your postings and have appreciated them. I just have one question for you regarding the so-called "democracy" in Nepal. I am from an ethnic group in Nepal, which is non-hindu and have suffered under the policies and attitudes of the Hindu state. I believe that the real name of Nepal should be the "Hindu state of Nepal" instead of Nepal. How can anyone call Nepal a democracy when killing a cow or an ox in order to eat beef is punishable by law! I am neither hindu, nor were my ancestors to my knowledge. Why then do I have to eat water buffalo when there are plenty of oxes around? I do not mean to offend any devout hindus with my question. I am merely trying to understand the justifications for the policies of the so-called "democratic" government. I would really appreciate your explanation to this question.
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| suna |
Posted
on 24-May-02 08:51 AM
Good point KG!
Another twist to cow slaughtering:
A girl who used to work in our house once told me that in her gaun, bhir bata ladera mareko gai khana huncha tara gai marna mildaina rey. Some of her gaun people in times of hunger resorted to pushing cows over hills. I think they did well. Bhok ley marna lageko bela dharma ko kura pani aucha ra?
But to rebute your eating water-buffalos comment, did you know that Trader Joe's in the US sells them because they are apparently low in fat :). Maybe you shouldn't be complaining.
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| Sangam |
Posted
on 24-May-02 09:26 AM
Under the current circumstances in Nepal, I would have preferred a different outcome rather than this to extend emergency. However, I applaud Deuba for doing what he thought is the best for Nepal and fighting jawans of NRA and Nepal police. It is good to see a PM, who is putting his political career on the line to achieve something which he thinks is with in the reach. This move can effectively ruin his political career if he doesn’t produce results with in next six months.
NC has shown again and again short sightedness. If NC had let Deuba fight for extension of emergency in the parliament with a silent treatment the ball would have been in UML’s court. UML had to come up with a different strategy other than wait, see and follow the congress CWC strategy. Now UML has an upper hand for up coming election even if NC splits or not. They are more than willing to try their luck in the election to cash in the opportunity they got.
Assuming that maoists won’t come to the table for talks, what moves are they going to make? If I have to guess, their target will be the next election when most of the security personnel will be deployed for the election in one half of the country. They will attack and destroy the security posts and try to terrorize the citizens in the other half of the country so that citizens will be afraid to exercise their voting rights. Until the next election, they will try to keep low profile with occasional attacks on lower level cadres of NC and UML.
Just my thoughts. What do you think their next move going to be?
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| Kid Flex |
Posted
on 24-May-02 10:14 AM
Chill out Mr. Paschim: No need to get so agitated. Making postings on a public site in such authoratative fashion will definitely/naturally expose you to criticism. I do not wish to engage in a slinging match with you. In fact, I find some of your ideas quite interesting--just that I take issue with certain of your assesments, predictions and priscription. Best of luck and no need to take any of this personally.
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| Got Milk? |
Posted
on 24-May-02 04:11 PM
paschim, u r nothing but a pompous ol' fart. US ma basera dheyrai politics garchhas. and claiming that u are not 'out of touch'. what a big bag of hot air u r. talai nepal jaane ticket kindinchhu.. gayera bhaasan dinchhas? on top of that, u try to belittle whoever dares to argue with u. don't brag about rich MA, idiot.. it doesn't make you any better than what a piece of egotic shit u r.
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| leviathan. |
Posted
on 24-May-02 09:33 PM
paschim dai,
to tell u the truth, havent really been talking to buwa. i was reading some books on international relations but i soon realized their futility and ran downstairs to hear from actual politicians and had a chance to contemplate on it myself.
as from the line from hobbes, well, its a real disgrace that i missed it. i came across the same line while i was reading weber last summer, so i'm going to conveiniently shift half the blame on max for improper citation!
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| Paschim |
Posted
on 24-May-02 09:56 PM
KG-ji, I don’t know for how long you’ve been reading me, but I’ve consistently raised the plight of our ethnic groups, and have said that the constitution needs to be made secular. We can’t have one state-sanctioned religion in a nation where the allegiance of the majority of the people to that religion is not pucca. The majority are real Hindus, of course, but many also feel that they were Hinduized. Thanks to democracy, people are debating openly and re-asserting their ethnic identities and are questioning and reversing the farcical designs of the Panchayat to engineer a homogenous nation in a radically diverse country. If you read Ramyata Limbu’s latest report in the Nepali Times about the 2001 census, because of awareness campaigns, many ethnic groups, especially more Rais and Limbus have said they are Buddhists or Animists, not Hindus, reducing the official figure of Hindus to 80% (my hunch is that in reality it's even less). The process of redressing the skewed, and suppressed interests of the ethnic groups – a result of the past 200 years of non-democratic Hindu nationalistic administrations (Consolidation of unification, Ranas, Panchayat) – has only begun in the last 10 years because of democracy. On diet, I feel that people have the right to eat whatever they want, but this right of people to eat whetever they want should not also interfere with the right of others to not be religiously offended. So we do need legal restrictions such as not having cows slaughtered near Hindu temples or Hindu villages or pigs killed near mosques and Muslim villages, but to make the act of killing and eating cows blanket illegal is wrong. Through open debates that a democracy allows, claims such as “we are not Hindus, and cows are not as sanctimonious to us than you” can be advanced to lobby the changing of this ban. But given the sensitivities, this dietary right of some people should be promoted in a way that doesn’t violate the other group’s right to observe that very dietary restriction. I have no doubt this will change if channels of democracy are used to air the concerns more vocally over time. Democracy is the solution, not the problem.
Kid Flex, I welcome dissent and constructive criticism. It’d be hypocritical of me not to. One reason I post publicly is precisely to test my views and learn from how people respond. But just to imply “you suck, full stop” without saying where, why, and how I err, and what particular part you disagree with, is pretty unhelpful. It’s also not very civil. I want to learn from you too, but I request you to be more specific in your objections.
Sangam, great points. On my part, I will be watching closely how events unfold in the next 4 months. On the basis of information available, I personally assume that the trajectory of events will lead to a more optimistic outcome in the next 6 months, but it would be wise to start considering likely scenarios, as you have done articulately. I think the phasing of elections will have to be done strategically. Definitely not by dividing the country plainly into East and West. For example: voting in Palpa and Syangja, who are neighbors, can be held at differently times, so that security forces who man booths in Syangja can hop over to the other district after they’re done in Syangja. Coordination and managing logistics will be key to deter armed threats from terrorists.
Got Milk, thank you for your nice words. FYI, which I stated above in plain English, I don’t live in rich Massachusetts. I live and work in a poor, communist country.
Leviathan, thanks for that disarming piece of wit :)
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| verite |
Posted
on 25-May-02 08:50 AM
Yo! Paschim :)
guess what
There are people who can argue with you without getting help from an experienced professional!
Noone has to talk to “daddy” just to disagree with some of ur points.
Hobbes was an extreme liberalist. Very smart but too assuming. Just like you are -smart but disgustingly egoistic and annoyingly verbose!
crucial meetings and travels huh? lol (i like the travel bit)
Do not state your opinion as if it were a fact.
Ex: Now, is what Deuba did legal and constitutional?
Yes.
Can it be contested in the Court?
Yes,
Are there indications that he will play foul - become the next Tulsi Giri?
No.
And lastly, didn’t anyone in Harvard or in your “little known” jharpate high school in Nepal, teach you that when you borrow statements from other authors you have to quote?!
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| ashu |
Posted
on 25-May-02 09:47 AM
Hey Paschim,
I see that some anonymous friends (may God bless them!) are now
throwing mud at you, are busy hurling colorful adjectives THAN
arguing with the substance of what you are (rightly or wrongly)
saying.
If it's any consolation, I say: Welcome to the club, buddy!!
Congrats on having earned your badge your honor :-)
As a "battle-hardened" sajha veteran (and that's a title I can surely claim
for myself after all this time :-), my friendly advice to you or anyone else is:
Hey, if you don't get personally and falsely attacked in this forum by
anonymous attackers once in a while for your whatever views and thoughts,
then, you don't really matter as a poster here and that you are basically
an insignificant gnat in this cyber-ecosystem!!
And so, Paschim, these adjective-laden attacks against you have
proven -- to me anyway -- that:
a) you, Paschim, greatly matter here as a poster;
b) what you write is good stuff, regardless of whether one agrees with you
or not, and
c) some people out there simply fear your erudition, your command of the English language and your genuine interest in starting and sustaining discussions related to Nepal, and the way they express their fear is by attacking NOT
the message but the messenger.
Ke garne?
One lives and learns: accepting that some Nepalis are simply like that, and that's life, and thank God that a majority is not like that at all!!
On another note, I'm tempted to discuss some of these political points with you (taking somewhat a different view); but, I don't get as much time as I did
before, when some people actually thought that I was on San Pradhan's
payroll :-)
That is why, I now look forward to beering with you later this year in that communist country of yours (they do have beer, don't they?), where I shall be to attend a regional meeting.
Until then, I'll write what I can here; but you keep your chin up, and keep on writing, and don't let these attacks unnerve you in any way. On a side note, my column on the private sector (broadly defined) is starting very soon.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| villageVoice |
Posted
on 25-May-02 10:08 AM
dear paschim:
Just to let you know that I loved this ...
Also, I do try to read your postings regularly (as much as I can manage), and let me say this: you deserve all the attention you are attracting in the forum. Some people do nothing but complain. But then santan thari tharika, right.
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| NK |
Posted
on 25-May-02 03:17 PM
Paschim, You ain't seen nothing yet (regarding the attacks)! Brace yourself buddy! : )
[goes without saying, like most of the visitors, I enjoy your well thought, well written postings]
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| uks |
Posted
on 25-May-02 03:46 PM
verite, only leviathan and few of us know why Paschim referred to "daddy". It was nothing offensive!!!! Just don't jump to conclusion, my friend.
I definitely enjoy Paschim's writing. I wish San creates an option where we will be notified when a particular person (in my case Paschim) responds to any topic. I try not to miss any of his postings.
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| verite |
Posted
on 25-May-02 06:07 PM
Woohoo..!
Uks - my friend I no jump to conclusion. I see paschim postings all along and finally I tells what I thinks regardless of the posterior osculating counterattacks.
Ashu - you seem to assume that English is the greatest language of all, hence the nepali ‘mob’ can be jealous of anyone with a good command of it. As far as im concerned, I could careless whether its French, Spanish, English or Nepali. Never really did agree with this idea of ‘Englissss the great’ that seems to circulate in the minds of some nepali’s.
As for the message and messenger, P man has good postings. Just the travels and big man Massachusetts are the type of lines I was referring to!
Chill with ur beer. Not everyone sees people/things the way you might. Respect that.
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| ashu |
Posted
on 26-May-02 02:06 AM
Verite wrote:
>>> Ashu - you seem to assume that English is the greatest language of all.
*********
No.
That's not what I think.
I like English, yes; and enjoy reading good English.
But to say that I assume that English is the greatest language of all, well,
that's NOT a correct assumption at all.
As a matter of fact, tell you what, for some months now, I have been spending my early (pre-work) mornings in Kathmandu learning two additional languages at language centers here. So, by late 2004, with Trailokya Aryal as my witness,
I fully expect you to find me competently fluent in both French and Chinese :-)
Kathmandu, I have discovered, is a great, inexpensive place when it comes to mastering foreign languages, assuming, of course, that you have the
motivation.
And so, my advice to all Nepalis out there: Learn another language IN ADDITION TO English while you are still young, when you have tons of energy and are motivated to learn about other cultures. English is not everything.
>>>Just the travels and big man Massachusetts are the type of lines I
>>>was referring to!
Sure, you are irked by that.
I understand.
But let's look at it this way: What's wrong if some people do indeed weave
parts of their resume into their Web postings?
Is doing that a criminal activity?
No.
Is doing that an immoral act?
No.
So?
Why are you bothered?
As it is, look, busy students and professionals do post stuff here for FREE -- without payment.
I, for one, wouldn't mind if some of them take advantage of this FREE forum to signal/to refer to their various achievments either explicitly or implicitly. Makes
the reading more interesting, I'd think. And so, let fellow Nepalis self-promote themselves through this forum: and if they do that, well, more power to them.
As the members of that Nepali rock band "1974 AD" sang yesterday at their concert at the Birendra International Convention Center in Baneswor:
LIVE AND LET LIVE.
A very Happy Buddha Jayanti to you all.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| Kid Flex |
Posted
on 26-May-02 04:31 AM
What I find disturbing about this site and some of the postings is this: some of you try and display/showcase your intellectual and academic sharp-edge but fail to realize that most Nepalis who are out there in the villages, even in Kathmandu, etc.--will not give a shit (sorry for the profanity) about your analyses and sometimes quite provocative insights. We don't need intellectual powerhouses who blow off their steam and flex their muscles but people who will go out there, in the field, and bloody put their necks on the line. You all criticise Madhav Nepal, GP Koirala, and many other politicians but what have you done? Fine, many of you may have studied very hard at venerable institutions (so have I), and even impressed the UNs, IMFs, World Banks, etc. etc. with your fantastic resumes, but have you thought to ponder this: you criticize and abuse leaders in Nepal, and expend substantial time talking about such lofty ideas about whether Nepal should be a republic, have a presidentail system, the incentive structure of the political game, etc. etc., you know what I mean--but at the end of the day you allback to you research at whatever university you are studying at; or you desist with your postitingsbecause of professional commitments or travels to regional conferences. You know what Madhav Nepal, Bharat Mohan Adhakari, GP Koirala, the whole lot of parlimentarians and bureaucract, have to look for ward to? They have to parley with crooks, gangsters, please their consitituents, do chakari, worry about their lives (thanks to Mr. Prachand and company), engage in corruption just to stay politicall afloat, etc. etc. They have no stable job to turn to, no resume/CV to bank their hopesupon just in case this thing in Nepalmesses up and all out civil war breaks out. They don't know French or Chinese, German, or boody Spanish. They speak broken English but so what. The point is that these same folks put their necks on the line so that Ne pl could be a democratic polity. And what I find so disturding about some of you pompous individuals is that your advanced education does not allow you to recognize this simple point. My friends, knowledge can be bought (or if you studied hard enough perhaps you got a scholarship), but wisdom must be cultivated. Upon arrival in India from South Africa Gandhi's mentor Gokhle told him to remain quiet for one year and travel the country, to learn about the spirt of the land and its people. Some of you appear to advertise on this site your abilities and even come across as jockying for leadership. There are already too many leaders in Nepal (or so they think), people who think they know the pulse of the nation. Be a little sensitve. He who thinks he leads is most often led. Respect people, respect our current leaders, only then will others respect you and not try and throw mud in you face and pull you down. I find some people on this site trying to distinguish themseleves but let me warn you flatly: you won't last for a second that way. The only way to move forward, especially in Nepal, is for people to work together and be willing to merge with the crowd, not to become the Next BP or Nehru.
|
| Sadhu |
Posted
on 26-May-02 05:33 AM
Hey Kid,
Don't get worked up! What these guys are doing is the intellectual equivalent of working out in the gym. They are doing it all for their personal benefit, not to benefit the sport or the society. Let them have their fun. Why grudge their shadow boxing? Agreed, they can not make any positive contribution. But for the same reason, they can not do much harm either. We have to bear with these pompous b......s if we want to improve our English by visiting this site.
Sadhu Sanyasi
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 26-May-02 11:41 PM
Hi Kid Flex,
It's all right if you find this all disturbing.
But first, please, please, get your facts right.
You can't make sweeping generalisations based on assumptions that are
simply not correct.
Let me begin:
Here are some of the POSITIVE THINGS that sajha.com and its various known
and unknown contributors have contributed -- in their own small, small way -- to
the overall vibrancy of Nepali democracy (broadly defined).
1) Increased our collective knowledge-base about Nepal -- the country we
all care deeply about despite its many problems.
2) Taken the editors of The Kathmandu Post to task for their apparent
toleration of plagiarism.
3) Exposed some human rights activists as charlatans who apparently do
only the wrong things.
4) Defended the likes of Gopal Chintan Siwakoti against provably false public charges.
5) Created a global platform for all kinds of Nepalis to talk passionately, even heatedly and thoughtfully, about various aspects of Nepal.
6) Created more awareness about issues such as depression, divorces and so on that go in Nepali communities, with ways to cope with them.
7) Fostered a culture of debate that is leaning more and more toward:
"I can disagree with you, even strongly, without being your personal enemy for life." This, you know, is a BIG CHANGE in most people's mindset.
8) Strengthened the emotional resiliency of many posters who have to defend
not only their ideas and thoughts but also themselves at times.
9) Showcased a whole range of Nepalis and their achievements who seem to be doing very well in their chosen professions, careers and areas of interests. You know, there is much we can all learn from the best (broadly defined) among us -- the best of WHATEVER fields.
10) Helped create personal and professional networks of Nepalis from all over.
11) Brought together many people who write, argue very, very well -- thereby, again, increasing our overall knowledge.
I could go on, but the main point here is: To portray this site only through the personalities of a few -- let's say, some intellectually or socially dominant
posters -- would be to MISS the larger picture that this site is slowly but
surely painting for us all.
And that is: Bringing together Nepali communities.
In that, this site deserves a honor grade, and this is why your feeling
disturbed makes little sense to me.
Now, to address you concerns, will some of these sajha posters go on to have an impact on Nepal's public-political life?
I don't see why not.
But if NONE of them go on to have an impact on Nepal's public life, then, will
that be a cause of concern?
Not at all.
The Kingdom of Nepal, thank God, does NOT wait for sajha people to come save her. She does have many other capable people too. And so, we at Sajha can
only HOPE that some of these sajha people and more people like them will take up public leadership roles (broadly defined) in due time, but we CANNOT expect or force them to do any of that.
And if they don't do that, well, why be disappointed and disturbed?
Fortunately, I personally know quite a few of the posters here, and I remain
very impressed with what they are/seem capable of doing for themselves, for
the world of ideas and for Nepal in whatever small, small and big, big ways.
Then again, I am an optimist.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
This is perfectly fine. I am NOT bothered that someone out there does not buy
my arguments. And that's because ideas and thoughts, by nature, take a LOT
of time to germinate, to be tested, to propagate and to be influential. To
expect that Nepal would change just because someone posts some brilliant
ideas on sajha.com would be to overestimate the
We don't need intellectual powerhouses who blow off their steam and flex their muscles but people who will go out there, in the field, and bloody put their necks on the line. You all criticise Madhav Nepal, GP Koirala, and many other politicians but what have you done? Fine, many of you may have studied very hard at venerable institutions (so have I), and even impressed the UNs, IMFs, World Banks, etc. etc. with your fantastic resumes, but have you thought to ponder this: you criticize and abuse leaders in Nepal, and expend substantial time talking about such lofty ideas about whether Nepal should be a republic, have a presidentail system, the incentive structure of the political game, etc. etc., you know what I mean--but at the end of the day you allback to you research at whatever university you are studying at; or you desist with your postitingsbecause of professional commitments or travels to regional conferences. You know what Madhav Nepal, Bharat Mohan Adhakari, GP Koirala, the whole lot of parlimentarians and bureaucract, have to look for ward to? They have to parley with crooks, gangsters, please their consitituents, do chakari, worry about their lives (thanks to Mr. Prachand and company), engage in corruption just to stay politicall afloat, etc. etc. They have no stable job to turn to, no resume/CV to bank their hopesupon just in case this thing in Nepalmesses up and all out civil war breaks out. They don't know French or Chinese, German, or boody Spanish. They speak broken English but so what. The point is that these same folks put their necks on the line so that Ne pl could be a democratic polity. And what I find so disturding about some of you pompous individuals is that your advanced education does not allow you to recognize this simple point. My friends, knowledge can be bought (or if you studied hard enough perhaps you got a scholarship), but wisdom must be cultivated. Upon arrival in India from South Africa Gandhi's mentor Gokhle told him to remain quiet for one year and travel the country, to learn about the spirt of the land and its people. Some of you appear to advertise on this site your abilities and even come across as jockying for leadership. There are already too many leaders in Nepal (or so they think), people who think they know the pulse of the nation. Be a little sensitve. He who thinks he leads is most often led. Respect people, respect our current leaders, only then will others respect you and not try and throw mud in you face and pull you down. I find some people on this site trying to distinguish themseleves but let me warn you flatly: you won't last for a second that way. The only way to move forward, especially in Nepal, is for people to work together and be willing to merge with the crowd, not to become the Next BP or Nehru.
|
| Paschim |
Posted
on 27-May-02 12:24 AM
Thanks Ashu, Village Voice, NK, and UKS for your kind words of support.
Verite, let's brag a bit more. Yes, I'm just back from one of the "travels" :) Yes, I am almost single-handedly hosting a "crucial meeting" this week to launch a program on trade that includes 11 countries. After that, yes, will be "traveling" again. This time to Nepal on the special request of His Majesty's Government to finalize a 20 year strategy that the NPC is finalizing. This is probably the first time the government has requested a young citizen, well under the age of 30, who's working abroad, to fly in like this for about a week to assist his country. Interpret this as "bragging" as well, but the larger point is I don't make things up. Never. I am a busy young man who juggles a lot of technical work, travels and meetings between my musings on Sajha. You can be sarcastic, but truth is truth.
You can also question whether all this is relevant here. But I mention these because, you know what? I actually get several emails when I DO NOT post something here for more than a day asking where have I disappeared? So when I write here, I'm often communicating to a group of my well-wishers, or sometimes directly to younger friends, like that reference to "daddy" which only Leviathan and UKS would have known. After all this flak though, I now realize that some remarks may sound "belittling" and "egoist" to those who don't know the context. A lesson for me perhaps to not assume that all of what I write or joke will be comprehensible to everyone here.
Similarly, on that reference to MA, I wanted to deny a false charge. So I did that by saying I have traversed the extremes, seen diverse lands, and because I have a personal knowledge of most topics I discuss here (e.g., the Maoist issue), I am not "out of touch". People may interpret this as bragging too, I don't care. Funny how the "rich" MA bit was picked up, but the "poor" Gorkha part was conveniently ignored.
On quoting Hobbes, I've used him so often on this forum to support my arguments (most recently in the thread "Politics and Hope") always attributing the source to him. People who follow my postings regularly know that. I agree I should perhaps write 'ibidem' once in a while even though I am not writing for a journal.
-----
On a general note, I just wanted to clarify some of these misconceptions just this one time. Won't waste more time in the future to respond to ill-intentioned allegations. I will never let people's jealousy (?) get in my way of writing what I feel. Friends who know me are probably amused by these charges that I'm "arrogant" and "egoist". If these were inferred from my postings, well, let me just say this: I write and assert my opinions here with a high level of confidence and authority. As Ashu implied, criticisms like these only strengthen one's resolve to keep going. Paul Krugman titled his column recently in response to one of his detractors as follows: "You know you've made it when..."
But let me re-iterate: I value constructive criticisms. And I have, on this forum, argued vehemently, but with respect, with my friends Nepe and Biswo, and conversed with pleasure with the likes of HG, NK, Ashu, among others. I'd like to see this constructive circle of my virtual acquaintances grow. This brings me to the useful points of Kid Flex. You see, if you had written what you wrote above earlier, then you'd have gotten a very friendly response because I'd have taken the remarks as critical but constructive. But the first time round you started with 4 completely inaccurate assertions (which I refuted) in a way that wasn't helpful. But your new points above echo some of my own views. As I said above, I'm probably the "most sympathetic" poster here to this system, because I know first-hand what a tough world it is for politicians, especially the good ones, to maintain their values, stay uncorrupt, etc. in the Nepali context. I look forward to our constructive conversations in the future. The young amongst us need to keep our hopes alive by toying with fresh ideas.
I'm not here to "sell" myself. I'd be doing full time PR under my real name if that was the case. People who know me know me, those who don't don't. Sajha is a good place to test one's views, and that's what I'm doing. But yes, I do care deeply about my country. I quit a plum job in Europe to go back to Nepal after my graduation. I worked for nearly 3 years there before going to "rich MA" for grad school. While in Nepal, I traveled around the whole country, read voraciously, met people, from the PM down to a poor villager in Kailali, and got to know my land through my own eyes and ears. I ask, how many people who visit Sajha, who are under the age of 30, have shown this kind of commitment?
To those who sit in comfortable locations in the West and constantly bitch about the country, let me say I'm NOT one of you. Rain or shine, I hope to live in Nepal, and make a career there (not in politics). To all hypocritical pundits who resent the passion and commitment of confident, self-respecting Nepalis, I'm so very sorry to repeat that I'm NOT one of you, and I wish you well in your own careers. But let me say my commitment to my land is unique, it's not some fake, intellectual work-out on Sajha that some seem to presume because they themselves can't do any better.
Enough said. I will keep writing here *exactly* the way I've been writing here for the past 6 months. Will return soon more forcefully after, YES, taking care of those "crucial meetings" and YES, a few brief "travels" including a very important one to my country for about 5 working days to answer my government's request for help.
Thank you again to Ashu, Village Voice, NK and UKS for your words of support at an unpleasant time. I also thank the rude gentlemen for being adequately concerned about my postings. Perhaps, you can help yourself by changing *your* reading habits. Please don't read me if I annoy you. Because on my part I'll NOT be changing what or how I write anytime soon.
|
| Kid Flex |
Posted
on 27-May-02 02:29 AM
Hello, I am not asking anyone to change his/her style of writing nor content. I will be pleased if some of you take the criticism to heart that its not enough to exhibit your intellectual poweress but actually go out there and put your necks on the line. I will heed your advice my friend and change my reading habits. I do not wish to engage in this type of back and fourth indefinitely--its surely a waste of time. Best of luck to you all and please don't take any of this seriously.
|
| _BP |
Posted
on 27-May-02 03:42 AM
Kid Flex, I agree with your points. I just wish that we as Nepalis had more to discuss than politics, but what can we discuss that will not appear trivial in comparison to what's going on in Nepal? This is a big issue that inhibits me from posting topics that I would like to throw out there, but don't out of respect for my suffering fellow Nepalis.
Another thing, Sajha is truly infotainment at its classic sense. My analogy for a lot of us who discuss politics (maybe not all) is that of watching an NBA game. We berate some players and criticize the refs...but God knows we couldn't do what they are doing.
And Kid, I thought your point of people getting something out of everything they do here was very poignant. There really is no true charity, as long as there is self-gratification. Even Mother Teresa got something for what she did... it made herself feel good. Right?
|
| verite |
Posted
on 27-May-02 09:58 AM
Non constructive criticism -
“This is probably the first time the government has requested a young citizen, well under the age of 30, who's working abroad, to fly in like this for about a week to assist his country.”
No it isn’t. Dr Bhek Bahadur Thapa - called personally by His Late Majesty King Mahendra. He was in the states.
Deepak Thapa - called from england
Surendra Shrestha - called from thailand
These are just three names.
I could qualify as being half ur age maybe and I don’t know HALF as much nepali politics as u do BUT then again I see you claiming the above quote as if it were a fact.
Nobody said you were lying. But the stuff that u say is not totally relevant to the subject.
About the daddy mommy bro sis thing - I wouldnt bet on that. It’s a small world.
Hence you didn’t have to imply that one has talked to an experienced professional before arguing with u.
And lastly, ive realised how futile it is to argue with someone who defends himself saying ppl are only jealous of me! Change urself. don’t read my postings.
I had shut up after reading ashu’s posting bout live and let live.. Which I agree with now. (no pun intended) Paschimji, go ahead and LIVE! Brag as much as u want.
Hey maybe we can do it together once ive reached just “below 30.”
|
| gorkhe |
Posted
on 27-May-02 12:33 PM
Paschim:
From what I have read so far, I have no doubts about your competency, intelligence, and professional integrity. Your unmatched articulation in this forum just stands out from other regular posters. However, I do feel like making a commet on your "bragging," which I think was just outbrust of frustrations you had to deal with lately. Just let it go my friend. Just as saying "NAANGLO THATAERA HAATI TARSADAINA," you have to disregard those personal bashings.
The offer from the NPC might be quite an opportunity for you, but let's see from a different perspective (yes you can take this one as a skeptical view, I guess). Just like we have heard many times in this forum, the NPC is no longer a venerable "planning" entity and one does no't have to have credible academic merits and 10+ years experiences to be the member of NPC. What can you expect from the entity which is run by people like Narayan Khadka, Prakash Mahat, and Munidra Rijal? It is hard to believe that it is the same organization where planners like Harka Gurung, Ram Prakash Yadav and Bekh Bdr Thapa used to be. Nowadays it looks like as long as you have a PhD and you have some political affiliation with Nepali Congress, you are there. These people know very little about policy planning and policy communication other than they they are good at (i.e., running politics and cadres). Just think deep down the heart, do you think they are even capable of what they are supposed to do? I am sure people like yourself who are politically sensitive (do's and do nots of the inside) and academically informed would want to think critically... Just a friendly cautionary note.
Having said that I do not want to discount what you might be able to do there. In other words, if you take this opportunity as a challenge and keep your professional integrity intact, you could make a difference. Speaking from my own experience, you will hardly find anyone who could challenge your professionalism (they would babble a lot behind your back though), after all the NPC has been so rotten that the members who supposed to have indpendent views rely heavily on CONSULTANTS reports and their technical papers. Well good luck, my friend.
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 27-May-02 06:26 PM
Now some of the guys in this forum are looking at finger
and laughing at the finger, when Paschim was trying to
explain things about moon by pointing his finger towards
the "parewa" ko moon. Kaam kura ekatira kumlo boki thimi tira
bhaneko yahi ho.
Nepal bigreko pani yastai mahajan haru le garda ho.
HG
|
| HUH |
Posted
on 27-May-02 07:44 PM
Nepali Ukhan:
KUKUR BHUKTAI GAR CHHA, HATTI LASKADAI GAR CHHA
|
| Paschim |
Posted
on 27-May-02 09:03 PM
Gorkhe-ji, thanks for your informed tips. I'm not joining the NPC bureaucracy - I'll just be there to do a specific time-bound task and fly back after 5 working days. Hopefully, I'll avoid the politics and accomplish my task professionally.
Verite, I used the words "probably" and "fly in for about a week". Dr. Thapa was asked to return for good. So was I in February. Again, The "daddy" thing was not there to imply that someone had to solicit experienced opinion to argue with me. The daddy in question was very much in the thick of events, hence the reference. And my friend, if you don't like what I write, just don't read me. Plain and simple. But if you want to talk, try arguing with me with solid points, not by throwing personal dirt. I respect *substantive* dissent. This forum is the witness.
Gurudev and Huh, thanks for your support.
----
I will try NOT to respond to postings on this thread again. I'd like to see it die. But people who need to pull down others to feel good about themselves, you may continue the game. I'm not playing.
|
| leviathan. |
Posted
on 27-May-02 11:12 PM
hmm.. a lot can happen in a day. (i must remind myself that im in a nepali forum.)
its just amusing that people i do not know are more concerned about paschim dai's remarks about my "daddy" than myself. i guess i should find this comforting on some level but really, friends, u do not need to leap at my defense. i think i am quite capable of doing that myelf, should i feel offended.
paschim dai, hope to hear from u in some other thread soon.
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 28-May-02 02:26 AM
Gorkhe wrote:
"What can you expect from the entity which is run by people like Narayan Khadka, Prakash Mahat, and Munidra Rijal?"
Very interesting!!
In defending Paschim implicitly (and that's fine!), do you really need to imply
that the above-named people are somehow khattam and incompetent? (Disclosure: I know all of them only vaguely -- and have no hidden
agenda to defend or offend them in any way.)
Look, it's easy to make general criticisms about certain Nepali officials in public
or in private in a holier-than-thou tone as some Nepalis are given to doing.
But I, for one, would be interested to read/hear YOUR substantive criticisms against those three named gentlemen. Can you please provide specific
criticisms?
If you can't, then, you should have the intellectual honesty to admit that you
too are simply -- though in a cleverly roundabout way -- indulging in the similar
kind of personal bashing, the kind that you are advising Paschim not to get involved with.
Do you get the irony here?
************
Gorkhe further wrote:
"Nowadays it looks like as long as you have a PhD and you have some political affiliation with Nepali Congress, you are there. These people know very little about policy planning and policy communication other than they they are good at (i.e., running politics and cadres)."
My question: How naive can you be?
Do you really expect, for example, Radio Nepal or Nepal Television to give you independent news?
No.
Likewise, do you really expect NPC members to have independent streaks and
not have "some political affiliation"?
Wake up and smell the coffee!!
Even Bhekh Bdr.Thapa, Harka Gurung et al could only be at NPC in those days because of their proximity to the then powers-that-be. That was the way then; that is the way now: only the players and the playing field have changed. The rules of the game have NOT changed. And to expect otherwise is to be foolish.
Besides, have you taken the simple trouble of looking at the resumes and work-experiences of Rijal, Mahat and Khadka? If you have, then, again,
please provide some substance as to why you have so low opinions of them.
If you haven't, then it's fair to assume that you too are just throwing mud at them, hoping that some of it will stick. If so, why should anyone believe the sincerity of your advice to Paschim, if you are just an articulate
muck raker?
****************
Gorkhey further wrote:
"In other words, if you take this opportunity as a challenge and keep your professional integrity intact, you could make a difference."
I find this to be a condescending remark.
You can't have a high opinion of someone (Paschim, in this case) on one hand
and then turn around and offer this kind of advice to them in public. But
suit yourself.
Besides, what does it mean to "make a difference" in a "rotten" (your word) organisation such as NPC in a span of 5 days?
*************************
Gorkhey wrote:
"Speaking from my own experience, you will hardly find anyone who could challenge your professionalism (they would babble a lot behind your back though)"
This is genuflection at its worst.
Any true friend of Paschim or anyone else would hope that the person in question would be professionally challenged --more and more, in and out of Nepal -- so that he or she would, over time, become even better and jhan ramro.
To imply that Paschim or anyone else is 'beyond challenge' is to do the friendship
a huge disservice.
(And, broadly, I dare say that most friendships among Nepalis easily break down PRECISELY because one or the other partyexpects genuflection from one's friends and well-wishers and can never have the emotional maturity to separate issue-based criticisms from personal criticisms.)
********************
Finally -- and at the risk of tossing out a line out of my own resume -- as someone who did work one full summer at the planning commission as a staff economist (with Dr. Girish Pant, Dr. Nirmal Pandey, Mr. Roshan Darshan et al) at the tender age of 22, some years ago and who still keeps in touch with all his then NPC contacts), my fundamental questions would be:
How relevant is NPC in Nepal anyway?
How relevant are these grandly-designed with much fanfare (gasp, choke!)
5-year or 20-year plans for Nepal ko bikas?
We've had nine of those plans.
Donors such as UNDP, DFID, ADB and World Bank practically dictate the terms at
NPC. Can NPC ever get itself out of the clutches of these donors and think for itself? (Answer: No).
And on and on.
I wish Paschim all the best with his NPC gig; but people like Gorkhey need to
come down from their (what I perceive to be) high horse and start talking substance before making sweeping criticisms of named people.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 28-May-02 02:51 AM
Ashu wrote:
Donors such as UNDP, DFID, ADB and World Bank practically dictate the terms at
NPC. Can NPC ever get itself out of the clutches of these donors and think for itself? (Answer: No).
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 28-May-02 02:52 AM
In this FREEDOM to do things by NPC without any influence from ...
ADB, reminds me the joke Japanese make on local government.
Japanese peoples say that local government is 30% local and free
from central govt.? Why?
Because they have to generate only 30% budget from local
resources and 70% of their budget from central govt. So,
Nepal's NPC can only be independent of WB, to ADB only on the
issues where they have projects or plans run independently from
local resources without involvements of WB/ADB. So,
independence is directly propertional to our own resources.
HG
|
| gorkhe |
Posted
on 28-May-02 08:39 AM
Hey Ashu,
DO NOT TRY TO GIVE ME ADVICE ON PERSONAL BASHING. Even I have to learn from some one it WOULD NOT be you. Give me a break the person who went after Rajesh, VV, Biswo and few others so personally is always a big fan of his own contradiction.
Although it was posted in a public forum, my posting meant to be a friendly note to Paschim. People like Paschim who has followed (or seen or experienced) Nepali politics more closely might know what I am talking about--take my words, I am NOT as naive as you seem to think. Well well, I know both Prakash and Munindra personally, way back from their college days when they were the leaders of NSU. This posting was NOT a "mudding" like the way you are assuming, I am well aware of their merits as political leaders. I was only questioning their competancy as NPC members and the high hope one might have with them as policy planners.
Okay, let's get to the point. Re. "substantive evidence" to backup my "generalisation". Well, I do not want to get into the inside story of the NPC in this public forum, but let me tell you this. I haven't come across any of their literature that I could cite--something that would convince me to accept them as the NPC members. Give me one good reason to think otherwise, could you? They are just fresh out of graduate school. I know personnally how much they rely their consultants writing... Have you got a chace to look at their latest dept. report on poverty monitoring? You could, of course, mention Narayan Khadka's foreign aid book, but do you really think that would be sufficient to have him as the VC of the NPC? Well, I don't think so. How many years have they worked inside the policy planning and policy communication process? I have nothing against the *process* itself of political appointments in the NPC. Every govt. gets to have their own trustworthy people. My only point was they could have someone who are good at planning. This is precisely the reason I haven't challenged credibility of planners like Ram Yadav, Shankar Sharma, Binayak, Nirmal Pandey and others.....
BTW, are you the one who once said so much about the deteoriating status of NPC?
I have to run now... going out of town for few days.
|
| ashu |
Posted
on 28-May-02 09:59 AM
Gorkhey wrote:
"DO NOT TRY TO GIVE ME ADVICE ON PERSONAL BASHING. Even I have to learn from some one it WOULD NOT be you. Give me a break the person who went after Rajesh, VV, Biswo and few others so personally is always a big fan of his own contradiction."
Thank you.
I had a bet with a friend via email this afternoon that you being who I
thought you really were/are would surely bring up this UNNECESSARY and IRRELEVANT "Rajesh" bit -- apropos NOTHING.
(As for VV and Biswo, I failed to get your references, for I am in touch with
both of them through occasional emails, but never mind.)
The bottom line is: Gorkhe, you have allowed me to win that bet, and I thank
you for being so predictable with your this much of a personal response.
Ah, some people just refuse to change, and that's interesting? :-)
Again, Gorkhey, look, it's perfectly fine if you don't want to learn from me.
I am NOT here to teach you anything.
But in this public forum, I do want to want learn from you, especially the bit
about NOT copying your habit of HURLING mud at other people, especially when you don't have any goddamn evidence and can only talk in sweeping, vague generalities and with rhetorical questions that can easily be challenged.
>>Well well, I know both Prakash and Munindra personally, way back from
>>their college days when they were the leaders of NSU.
Well, for your information, "Munindra" ko real name is: Minendra.
When you can't even get one of the names right (after all, how difficult is that PUBLIC name for you to master?), it's hard to take your above claim seriously.
Believable evidence.
Believable evidence.
Your weak point, then and now -- my dear gorkhey.
>>. I was only questioning their competancy as NPC members and the high hope one might have with them as policy planners.>>
No.
You haven't questioned anything.
Go back and re-read your posting.
All you did was just portray them as incompetents from whom we should not
expect much.
Just like that.
And you expected that assertion to fly on its own.
You call that questioning?
Give me a break.
I call it: Pre-judging other people in public without ANY shred of evidence and
then going on to negatively influence other people about them.
If I hadn't questioned you, some people might just have bought your
sweeping bullshit about Khadka, Risal and Mahat, and that would have
been a small triumph for LIES, lies and lies.
Mind you, I am NOT defending those three guys per se or saying that they are great: I am merely asking YOU -- Gorkhe -- the reasons behind your certain assertions in this public forum.
>>>. I haven't come across any of their literature that I could cite--something that would convince me to accept them as the NPC members. Give me one good reason to think otherwise, could you? >>>
No.
Why should I give you any reason?
I have never called them anything (good or bad).
You portrayed them as incompetents.
Now YOU prove your own assertion.
It's that simple.
>>They are just fresh out of graduate school.>>
What's wrong with that?
So is our Paschim -- fresh out of grad school.
But look, you and I agree that Paschim's already doing great things.
Is being fresh out of grad school a DISQUALIFICATION to be an NPC
member?
If so, says who?
FYI, Risal has been out of grad school at least for the last five years. Khadka
has been out for years. Mahat may be the most recent graduate of the trio.
Again, what's wrong with being a fresh PhD graduate, and being an NPC
member?
>>I know personnally how much they rely their consultants writing...>>
So what?
All NPC members rely on consultants' writings anyway.
That's the name of the game in the national planning process.
And you call yourself not naive?
Just ask PR Ligal -- how the game is played.
>>Have you got a chace to look at their latest dept. report on poverty monitoring? >>
Yes, I have.
But what about it?
Could you please discuss some SUBSTANCE, please?
Again, you are simply throwing these fancy references about this report and that report, almost expecting me to roll my eyes with yours as if to say together, "Look, how khattam they are".
Well, I am NOT playing your game, and am instead asking you: What's so
khattam about their that report? Can you please tell us?
>>>You could, of course, mention Narayan Khadka's foreign aid book, but do you really think that would be sufficient to have him as the VC of the NPC? Well, I don't think so. >>>
Well, tell me: What makes someone qualified to be an NPC VC?
PR Ligal never wrote any book, but he was the NPC VC for a long,
long time. Khadka, to his credit, has written other (good or bad) books
too.
More to the point, as I have made clear earlier, I have always believed that you become an NPC member on the strength of your political connections, and I
have no illusions about that.
>>>How many years have they worked inside the policy planning and policy communication process? >>
Well, you tell us.
You are the one who is saying that you know "Prakash and Munindra" personally.
If you know them so well, why not start giving out facts for us to learn from instead of handing out these stupidly loaded questions?
>>My only point was they could have someone who are good at planning. >>
Like who?
Name some people, please.
>>>This is precisely the reason I haven't challenged credibility of planners like Ram Yadav, Shankar Sharma, Binayak, Nirmal Pandey and others.....>>>
Why not?
Because Yadav, Sharma, Bhadra and Pandey have been out of grad school for decades?
>>>BTW, are you the one who once said so much about the deteoriating status of NPC? >>>
Yes, I said that, and am glad to note that for someone who says he doesn't want to learn frome me, you do remember the content of my past newspaper and Web writings. Now, talk about contradiction yourself.
If you go back and read what I had written then (in newspapers and so on),
I gave (right or wrong) EVIDENCE and supportive arguments for my
reasonings.
And on a larger note, that's the difference between you and me.
For better or worse, I give reasons for my conclusions in my own name
and am ready to be challenged with better ideas.
You on the other hand assert conclusions -- that have no reasonings and no evidence and you just expect people to buy your thoughts because you said
so.
Look, you can hate me forever for this (and I know you will, and that's fine), but, yes, I have been relentless about certain things in public in my own name, taking all the risks for things I thought were right.
But unlike you, I have NEVER made nagative sweeping generalizations about others in public, deliberately misleading one group of people about others.
Have a good trip to wherever you are going to.
oohi
"another late night at work"
ashu
ktm,nepal
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