| Username |
Post |
| Nhuchche |
Posted
on 11-Jun-02 08:43 AM
I sometimes wonder why there are so many festivals in Nepal. Are Nepali people to forever be swamped by the cultural practices that they never have time to do more productive stuff to develop the nation?
I was looking at the picture of Traffic Week in Kathmandu. Of all things, Nepalese people were busy celebrating Traffic Week!
Centuries ago when Nepal was not officially open for tourists, one Chinese traveller is said to have remarked something to the extent of "Nepal has more temples than houses; more gods than people; and more festivals than days."
Could the very tradition what separates us from the rest of the world - a curse for our development? Our culture is so intertwined in it's cultural practices that barely anyone has time to focus on the growth of the country.
On a conspiracy theory note, maybe the then rulers of Nepal, intentionally imposed these 'religious' practices in order to keep the citizens occupied in frivolous activities, and not having enough time to question the rulers. Well this is a common question in all religion i.e. the so called 'religious' gurus preach things to stay in a more powerful position than the common people. For example, look at the current news regarding priests found molesting. To prove the point even more, they are only to be charged for more than ONE case of molesting. Now what does that tell you about religion even in a present day and age.
If you can't trust these preachers in today's modern day and age, why do we so blindly follow our religious traditional practices?
Just think about all the financial wastage that occurs in one year in Nepal. All the unnecessary 'bhoj'. All the unnecessary expenses in Bihe, bartabandha, birth, death, and any other holidays.
I'm not saying these are bad practices. But I'm questioning why they are necessary. The Nepalese as a whole need to stop wasting money and more so their TIME in these frugalities and concentrate more on what is happening to their country.
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| Bhenda |
Posted
on 11-Jun-02 10:53 AM
I know, people spend too much money on bhoj. Sometimes they even sell their land and house to have a big party on their son or daugheter's wedding, isn't that a waste. Sometimes I feel that we neplese are very superficial people, we have to have a big Bartamanda, big wedding, big bhojs nomatter how poor we are, just to prove to the society that we are not that poor.
Bhenda
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| Mitra 2 |
Posted
on 11-Jun-02 11:28 AM
This is one of the reasons why people (politicians, govt. workers) are openly engaged in corruption, bribary, etc. They openly complain that the salary they get is not enough to maintain the social status, which includes everything you mentioned. To keep up with the bad traditions, we have developed many other bad habits. These traditions are pushing us backwards.
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| darshee |
Posted
on 11-Jun-02 12:06 PM
this is one issue that had been buggin me for quite sometime....and it was very heartening to come to know that there are pple who do think in the right way...we are so caught up in the rituals and traditions that we scarecely even stop to think why and for wht purpose we are doing it......we do it because out parents did it or our "poorkhas" did it and they did it because their "poorkhas" did it....
here i am reminded of a story about how a pujari gets constantly disturbed by his pet cat when he sits down for his pooja to such an extent that after sometime he starts tying up the cat before starting off with his pooja...later on it became part of the ritual for his disciples to look for a cat. tie it up and then only start their poojas..i think this is wht has been happening in most of the cases...
it was a very good point raised here that maybe these are the things that are responsible for holding us back. bahira manchhey bhaney kahaa kahaa pugi sakey ani haami bhaney chai kuni k ko devi ra kata ko mandir ko devtaa ma nai arki raheko chhau...we are so stuck in time.
rahyo abo biyaa ko koora...why pple want to put in all their earnings ..put themselves in debt for it is somthing i totally fail to understand...i dont know whether i am the odd one out here..but i really do think its just a simple case of two pple deciding to be together..so yasma tyasto paisa bagauney ta kaamai chhaina...the band bajaa, the jhililili bijuli batti, the food ( which of course goes to waste) and so many other insignificant things. i think it would be so much better if instead of wasting money on these things, even half of the laagani is given to the newly weds to start off their new life together...
but it makes us glad to know that pple are at least starting to think in these lines now. so one day we just might get there...
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| koko |
Posted
on 11-Jun-02 01:17 PM
I do not look at those traditions as un-necessary means. Those are the very elements that define our culture. Especially the Newar culture. Way beack when they were actually created they had a purpose. Like Guthi was sort-a-like a social service. And those Bhoj's were created to get these people togather to discuss matters. And it perfectly served our society for a very very long time. Every event(festival) that takes place in KTM serves a purpose. And if you are a native you would know, and as time by people added stories to the tradition etc etc. I don't know of any other culture like Newar culture. Most of it is tied to religion too... There is a religious story behind every holiday. Now you tell me if there is any other culture like that. Most of them came from Newar culture like IndraJatra, paanchare`, yoomari puni, Naakhatya, Budhajayanti, etc etc.. I am glad we have that. That is probably one of the reason why Newars are socially united(familywise) cause they do spend a lot of time togather feasting and interacting during these festivals(probably one of the reason why they are more sociable than others). I would rather have that than Shivratri, or Gaijatra, or Ghodejatra. I don't see no Bhoj on those holidays.
Now compare it to western culture, they don't stand a chance. Who on earth on the western hemisphere would shut down the govt. for religious and spiritual purposes. In a place where religion and state is seperate, you would never get that. US is different because culturally everything is still very new here. Traditions don't go beyond a couple of centuries. Whereas ours dates back to thousands of years.
People do not have to spend their entire earnings on these events. You can still celebrate these events with minimal financial contribution. Now if you are trying to show off in front of your neighbour or your family members then it is a totally different story. Its only those people who are trying to showoff that makes the whole tradition look ridiculous.
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| Lauka |
Posted
on 11-Jun-02 02:14 PM
All traditions are not unnecessary.
But definitely there are many traditions that are unnecessary. Specially for an underdeveloped country like ours with a per capita income of about 200 dollars per year, these society imposed practices are burdens if nothing else.
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| Koko |
Posted
on 11-Jun-02 03:15 PM
If we didn't compare and tally with others then only we can see the difference. Now that you are in a different society living a completey different life, but we as a society did not know up untill just a couple decades ago. Education, telecomunication, television has slowly been changing everything in Nepal. Idon't know if it is good or bad. Along with it we are also losing our culture.I feel that the very characterestics that define us should always be aparent. Otherwise we will all look the same and be very boring.
Capitalism and westernization is not always the best for a country like Nepal. We might lose our Human touch along the way. Would you rather do the 9-5 corporate slave thing or be independent and do what you want ? I think that's where the difference lies.
Ans $$$ is not everything in the world. As they say what goes up must come down. History is witness.....
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| Nhuchche |
Posted
on 11-Jun-02 04:01 PM
Just because some traditions happen to define our culture does not mean that these traditions cannot change with time. Change is needed in every aspect of human life. We cannot life our life as we did when we were 5 years old. We have to grow up with the world.
In ancient time, the sun and the moon were considered as Gods, but they were proven otherwise. So people had to change their traditions and beliefs to the new age and move forward. A society can't hope to progress when it's guided by ancient traditions that don't have any practical values.
Again, don't misunderstand my main point. There are some valid traditional practices which strenghten family values and that is good. I am not saying capitalization and westernization is the best thing for any country. I am saying that we need to re-evaluate and re-think our traditional practices and break away from traditions which are frugal and frivolous, and which do not in anyway help us grow - neither personally nor nationally.
Maybe the readers can come up with some more examples of unnecessary traditions that is being practiced in Nepal.
Koko, regarding your question on being a 9 to 5 Corporate slave or be independent and do what you want, here's my 2 cents.
It's very hard to compare those two things. What criteria would you put to compare which one is better? Are you saying capitalism/westernization leads to a 9 - 5 slave thing, and that what exist in Nepal is being independent and being able to do what you want?
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| Bhenda |
Posted
on 11-Jun-02 04:33 PM
Nhuchche Ji is very right.
Bhenda
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| Koko |
Posted
on 12-Jun-02 07:51 AM
My point is that if you look at all of the industrialized nations, they all got there enslaving the common man. Look at Japan, US, EU, and China is getting there. They all got there sans humanity. During the industrial revolution they used laborers as slaves. And if you look at today, its gotten a lot better now. But a common man is still a slave to the corporation along with credit cards, mortgage, car payments, bills etc etc. These folks own you. If you don't do what they tell you, your house, your car, your property is all gone in a whiff.
I think I will take the old ways anyday over that. Things will not be as dandy as in industrialized nations. Like running water, electricity etc etc But I will still have my dignity.
On the same note I am not saying that things should not change along time. Our traditions are more than thousand years old. Our society has definately changed during that timeframe. We should continually update these traditions to fit our needs accordingly. But we should not lose our culture(who we are).
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| Capitalism |
Posted
on 12-Jun-02 01:10 PM
Koko ,what is your current status?
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| Koko |
Posted
on 12-Jun-02 01:24 PM
Unsure !!
Don't know which is better. would like to benefit from both.
As they say you've got to balance the ying and the yang.
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| Bhenda |
Posted
on 12-Jun-02 02:57 PM
I love my culture too, I love all the festivals but I think we are overdoing things in the name of sanskriti, dharma, ijjat, and samaj. Why spend too much money on puja and dharma when more than half the population is starving. It is just a sukulgunda praviti of nepali people.
Bhenda
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| Yohan |
Posted
on 13-Jun-02 03:53 AM
This forum has cast in some light about the reason for Nepali backwardness in general. Extravagant expenses on fancy bartamanda, momentary Bhojs, Biheys and Kiriyas etc. on top of many routine festivals in the year. Really people have little time to build up themselves and their Nation.
In spite of the hard work, the annual income is barely enough to sustain because of such expenses on TRADITION. It is something like earning money and putting them in bag having holes. That made me hate the tradition founded on Hindu system long ago and quit out of this system although socially belonging to high cast and benefiting from its weakness and exploitation. This system does not come as a DIVINE WARRANT. Nor has it promises of returns now or in the next life for performing all these shows.
As a young boy I took interest to know more about it and asked my parents what it was all about. “Yo sab lokay kirti matra ho” was the fitting reply that emboldened me to look for solace outside Hinduism and traditions founded on Hinduism. Hinduism has also divided the people in castes and sub-castes leaving the cracks for disintegration. It is so surprising that people still hold on to it as if that is the only way of justification for the Nepalese people. Although I am saved, whose answer guided me out of the system are still the slaves to this vain tradition.
One blunt assertion straightway without further reasoning for the good of all the Nepalese people; for deliverance from bondage of the expensive tradition now and for being transferred to another meaningful tradition with assurance of life after death: turn to Jesus Christ and the Gospel (not to be misunderstood with Westernisation or turning to Capitalism). Change with progress can be seen in less than a decade, both for the people and the Nation. But who can accept that? If they do not desire to be out of this vain system with expensive tradition even after this knowledge and information, they have to bear the loss with no one sympathising. I am already out and have feast continually in my heart without any meaningless expenses involved.
A testimony from one that is saved from the bondage of vain tradition and unkind, hungry gods.
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| RumZhum |
Posted
on 13-Jun-02 06:18 AM
Why do we give so much importance to the material development? Are Americans in those tall buildings happier than our brothers pulling Machhendra Nath ko rath? It's time we stop searching outside and look within.
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| Koko |
Posted
on 13-Jun-02 09:56 AM
The type of wastage that you guys are talking about is everywhere in the world. So what we have Bhoj and Bartabhanda or kriya's or festivals. The so called developed and western nations have them as well. If you go to the rural areas you will see all these religious fanatics spending enormous amounts of money for the same purposes. Those anti-abortionists, Jehova's witness, Hashedic folks, Sunni's, the druids, to the greek mythic gods, the sufi's, .... Peoplel spend money the same way in different forms(barmitzvah, easter, thanksgiving, christening, solstice's, matadors, indy500, nba etcetc).
The main weakness is not with the poeple. Its the govt. and the leadership. Social-welfare has nothing to do with the country being in such a turmoil. You don't go around telling Jehovah's witness to stop what they are doing because our country is not doing well. Its the president's job. Its the same way in Nepal, only if our leaders stopped pocketing the money meant for THE PEOPLE we would not even be having this conversation.
As far as the caste system is concerned.... We definately have come a VERY long long way. Things are still progressing for the better. If you look at the MTV generation you will see the difference. They are far more informative and any generation before us. Thanks to information technologies out there. As they say this type of change can never happen overnight. In due time things are bound to change.
AND To Mr Yohan:
Are you tellingl people to turn to Jesus ? And you think he will save you? I am a little confused here....enlighten me.
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| KanchaChora |
Posted
on 13-Jun-02 11:02 AM
Festivities are cultural events. Cultural events are related to religion. Religion is derived from philosophy.
This is how every society works. The older the culture the more the traditions. This is the law of culture.
Look at America, it is the newest culture in the world yet has cultural/social holidays.
There is nothing wrong in following eastern or western religion. Religion has always been a matter of choice in the east. If you study the history people were more open to new ideas, philosophy and forms of worship in the old days then they are today.
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| ddud |
Posted
on 13-Jun-02 12:03 PM
I hope my generation is strong and will avoid some of the social/cultural/religious activities each individual thinks that is a waste of time and money.
Other than that we have some great Nepali(mostly Newari)tradition and I hope some day some of them(indra jatra, machandra nath. .) will be an international festival that attracts people from all over the world. It would be good for the economy of the country.
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| RumZhum |
Posted
on 13-Jun-02 09:12 PM
A culture or tradition survives as long as people want it to survive. What should continue is a decision taken by the mases.
I live in Jawalakhel and bhoto jatra is round the corner and I'm not complaining, I'm rather looking forward to it. I can not put any rationale to my feeling, I just do.
Well, the question is, is it necessary to rationalize everything? Is 'I feel good!!!' not a good enough reason to do something?
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| Yohan |
Posted
on 13-Jun-02 11:55 PM
Koko asks, Are you telling people to turn to Jesus? And you think he will save you? I am a little confused here.... enlighten me
The answer- A definite YES for both the questions. About the confusion I do not know what has caused it. If that has come as a surprise striking at the root of confidence, confusion is natural. I do not believe that it was something sudden. I was not talking something new that has not been practised and proven. I would not like to go in depth of theology or philosophy to give the explanation. Although previously called a descendant of “Bachha Rishi” I am adopted in the household of God as a child now. I would abide by this new privilege and witness to the rest that the calling is open for ALL to the same privilege.
Unless we become new persons, we can not just pretend to reform externally and change the society and practice, with the old self raging for vengeance on others. Hinduism can not be reformed to make it useful. Widespread Social iniquities and injustices have taken place under the umbrella of Hinduism and they are going to remain, as this is the ancient order. It is for this reason that I wished all Nepalis (even all mankind) to turn to Jesus Christ and His Gospel above which there is no wisdom on this earth…. We can become new persons under Christ’s direction.
And may I tell you one thing, that as long as Nepal is a Hindu State, it morally remains part of India for which it is being bullied now in many fronts!
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| To Yohan |
Posted
on 14-Jun-02 12:08 AM
You call yourself "baccha rishi"?? do you know what is the meaning of rishi before calling yourself that. Rishi does not choose a particular faith, rishi is above faith; rishi is someone that is enlightned obiviously you are not. If you are enlightned and at least have an idea you should see the richness of "rishitwa" in Hindusm rather than critize it.
On the other hand I do not think that there is anything wrong with Christianity. It is the people that follow christianity give it a bad name. Same thing goes with hindusm, people give it a bad name. If you want to study relegion and/or philoshopy you need to have a openmind to understand rather than closed mind.
Baccha Rishi?? what a joke...
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| Baccha Rishi?? |
Posted
on 14-Jun-02 12:21 AM
I was called a real rishi when I was in Nepal.. you are only a baccha, if you want to learn on how to have some one call you a grownup rishi call me at 555-1212 and I will show you how...
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| Yohan |
Posted
on 14-Jun-02 12:34 AM
>Baccha Rishi?? what a joke...
If you have a mood to joke, it appears to you only as a joke. If you are after the message in the posting, I meant to say that there is an order much higher than that founded by our famous Rishis whereby the light shed by the Rishis appear as a faint burning candle before the bright noonday sunlight.
It is not for joke, please.
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| Yohan |
Posted
on 14-Jun-02 12:39 AM
...And you are trying to ecclipse that bright light of the Sun (as chamarey) to make condtions for use of that faint candle light....
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| Koko |
Posted
on 14-Jun-02 08:40 AM
Mr Yohan,
Jesus a savior ? There is no proof of that. Bible is a ficticious book. Just like tom Clancy in our modern times. All the religious books from all religions are ficticious. There is some(very little) truth to it. For example: In Old Testament When Moses came back from Mt Sainai with the tablet, he was shocked to see his people going back to idol worshiping. In fit of anger threw that tablet on the ground and the earth opened and all the non believers perished in the process. In modern times he would be a mass murder(like genocide). But instead your god took him to heaven. Now is that Justice ? I can go on and on and on .....
Religion is for people without self confidence. If you know what you are doing and you do not need guidance..like someone to telling you how to live your life ? Give me a break.
Bible was handed down orally for at least a century..Now if you've played the wispering game when you were a child you would know what I am talking about. Contents get lost and added when you hand a story orally. I would quesion all those so called miracles mentioned in the bible.
You can live your life the way you want. But these are just my observations.
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| KG |
Posted
on 14-Jun-02 09:36 AM
Yohan:
It was not enought that you try to portray all Muslim as bad guys, now you are trying to convert Nepalis to Christians too. It's a free forum and you can do whatever you want. But the idea "my religion is better than yours", is what makes ironic religiour conflicts.
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| Bhenda |
Posted
on 14-Jun-02 11:34 AM
Yohan ji,
I was complaining about people spending too much money on festivals but its their choice, they are not copelled to do it, our dharma does not say that we are going to hell if we did not do it.
I think weak people need religion to have peace in their life, I am in peace, I am happy, I dont lie, and cheat and I try not to hurt anybody, I think this is what is important in life. All the religion in this world are man made, and only fools fall for it and only fools fight in the name of religion.
bhenda
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| |
Posted
on 14-Jun-02 02:27 PM
Bhenda,
You are so right.. People have to watch out for self-proclaimed converter. He is trying to deceive others by words like rishi, light etc..
Yohan, if you are happy, be contained and leave everyone else in peace. Do not judge people by the color of their skin or their faith. All faith are good, yours is good for you mine is good for me. Learn to live and let live this is the first principle of your new religion. Love your neighbor (even if he belongs to different religion).
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| Baccha Rishi?? |
Posted
on 14-Jun-02 02:37 PM
Candlelight is enough for reading or doing other chores. It is certainly cannot compensate for the sun. For some candlelight is enough for them, for others even Sun is not enough.
There is a big philosophical difference in Christianity and eastern religion. Even though some of the concepts are documented to be borrowed from the teachings of Buddha. My friend learn the philosophy before you call another religion a candle light not realizing that you are the one that is getting away from the sun, closing the doors and hoping that a candle light is the only light in the world.
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| Koko |
Posted
on 14-Jun-02 03:17 PM
By the way Yahan I just wanted to clarify that I am not confused about my identity. I know who I am, and I know what I am capable of. I was rather confused on what you were stating.
Jesus was just a normal human being just like Sidhartha Gautam was. Its only his apostles who created this image of larger than life character. Besides Jesus who else in the world has performed such miracles ? None.... What proof is there ? None...Now you probably going to argue with me that its all about faith. But for me NO EVIDENCE ....NO FAITH.
Philosophy is a science. There cause and there is reasoning(evidence, proof). Faith has no place there. If there is no logic then there is no solution. Everything has to go in a chronological order.
I am not saying Hiduism is any better. If you take alook at the world today all conflicts between nations are due to religions. If possible those religious people would like to take us back to the Dark ages when they had full controll over anything and everything. Bhramins would probably would like the same too(turn back the clock), just like the priests(christian) would. But in todays day and age it is not going to happen. You know why ? Cause we are educated and we know better. Back then only the men of cloth were given that oppertunity.
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| NepaliChora |
Posted
on 14-Jun-02 05:18 PM
What is a definition of a good religion? To define a religion we need to keep the culture and traditions aside. Why? Because combination of religion, culture and traditions will make a big spaghetti and be more confusing. For argument of religion let us segregate philosophy from religion. Philosophy is the core of all religions and this is want I want to discuss. Foundation of religion is philosophy. I will only focus on Hinduism.
Hinduism has different philosophical explanations; these can be defined in two main sections.
1. Dwaita
2. Awdaita
1. In dwaita, the God has a physical form. Like Shiva, Vishnu, Durga etc. The God is the creator and the destroyer. God can be attained by love, compassion and service to others. Bhakti is considered the only way to experience God. There are many spiritual leaders that have endorsed this method. The most prominent one is Chaitna Mahaprabhu. Follower of this principle pays more attention to tradition and tries to perfect the form of worship by giving to the poor or by living with as little material possession as possible.
2. In awdaita, the God does not have a physical form. He is form less. This concept became very popular after Shankaracharya. In this philosophy God can be achieved by rigorous discipline, knowledge and meditation. He is the source of knowledge. A devotee with the right self discipline and the guidance of the "sata" guru the devotee can experience the God and the supreme bliss. The follower of this principle pays less attention or no attention to tradition or rituals. There is no segregation between God and his creation. All men (or women) are created equal, in this philosophy.
Both of these philosophies preach giving to the poor, helping the needy and seeing God in every human being. After all God created each and every one of us so both of these philosophies preach unity and acceptance. In both of these philosophies people are allowed to have their own opinion and to challenge different beliefs. Both of these philosophies encourage individuality, but there is a discipline that needs to be followed. It is like having a map and a compass before starting a journey. You can always go to any direction but as long as you have a map and a compass you are not going to be lost at the end.
Having defined Hindu philosophy most of us do not see Hinduism in this manner. When we think of Hinduism we think of an angry hindu protestant, a thug jogi or a brahmin telling that you need to donate some money to get rid of the ills that you are currently facing, etc. These examples are not religion, even though it sounds like it, as the people are deeply involved in religion. This is where an educated mind should judge and say this is not religion, and it is uneducated understanding of a religion.
Before understanding Hinduism, or any religion for that matter one must study the philosophy then only one can get an understanding of the religion. That is why I always say, "religion is a good thing only if understood" but unfortunately there are many that do not understand the fundamentals of a religion (any) and pick a fight with a person from another belief.
It is also a fact that there are more wars fought in the name of religion than any other subject. This is simply because people make a spaghetti of religion, tradition, culture, philosophy, politics and refuse to understand the fundamentals. Then it gets real ugly.
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