| Username |
Post |
| ashu |
Posted
on 06-Jul-02 02:17 AM
Kabi wrote:
Ashuji,
I wouldn't worry about cynicism. I think we need a healthy dose of cynicism to save ourselves from absurdity and hypocrisy.
*********
I have no idea what "a healthy dose of cynicism" is.
How much of cynicism would be "healthy" and how much more would be
unhealthy, I don't know.
All I know from what I have read about the ancient Greeks (who gave us that word and more) is that skepticism (a different word) is one thing: a hallmark of a fine, questioning mind.
But cynicism is NEVER healthy.
Cynicism has a corrosive and infectious effect, and eats into one's emotional fibers
the way concentrated hydrochloric acid burns one's cotton pants.
Still, if you want to be a cynic, fine.
Go ahead.
Any time you want.
Unlike Paschim, I do not think that there is such a thing as ill-timed cynicism.
Cynicism is cynicism -- whether it's ill-timed or well-timed
But I'd rather have you as a skeptic than as a cynic.
***************
Kabi wrote:
What is dangerous is the cynicism over any dose of cynicism. It's not that I do not appreciate what you (generic you) are trying to do. I salute all of you. But there is something serious dangerously lacking in Nepali civil society. My poem speaks of them.
**********
OK, so, what IS this "something [that's] serious dangerously lacking in Nepali civil society"?
Can you elaborate?
If you insist on talking in terms of vague generalities, fine.
Go ahead.
Similar vague generalities can also be hurled at the civil societies of all other
countries too.
But you are smart enough to know that using vague generalities to argue a specific
point is neither insightful nor informative. Then again, you have a right to your
speech.
**************
Kabi wrote:
On the same note, I have heard people often saying that there is no functional civil society in Nepal. 12 barsha prajatantra ko dhungro.ma rakhe pani Nepali.ko puchchhar banga.ko bangai. I wonder if we really have a straight dhungro !
***********
I disagree with you.
A civil society, by definition, is an amorphous one: it's a LOOSE collection/coalition
of various public and private institutions, pressure points, networks, written and unspoken codes of conduct and so on WORKING in some way together to push for desired consistent-with-democracy outcomes.
Killing a journalist, even a traitorous journalist, in police custody is NOT a desired
consistent-with-democracy outcome in Nepal.
And one can say this even while strongly denouncing KS for his brand of journalism, even while being his ideological OPPONENT.
The larger question is: If you and I keep silent about the government's alleged treatment of KS now, your or my or our friends' turn to die in police custody may
well come tomorrow.
What then?
Would we keep silent or want our friends to keep silent?
Would we make fun of people doing protests then?
How then to curb the excesses of the state?
And so, if we let the state (which has a mandate from us) to cross certain lines now,
how and where would we draw a line between what's acceptable and
unacceptable?
As recent history of Uganda, Germany, Chile, Argentina and other countries have taught us, the state's excesses, once tolerated, will be very hard to stop when
they inevitably threaten ALL OF US.
Better to put our foot down now, and say enough is enough than not challenge the government when it seems to stray from democratic principles.
That is why, whatever its faults and weaknesses, Nepal's civil society is there PRECISELY to ask those questions -- loudly and clearly.
And so, the protest is there:
a) to pressure the government to share verifiably true information about KS.
b) to lessen the chances of OTHER KSes dying in police custody in te future.
c) to signal to the govenment that we are NOT going to be idle by-standers
but we do give a damn about how it conducts its business in our name.
That said, is the protest THE cure-all medicine for all of Nepal's ills?
NO.
Unlike BRB and Prachanda who say that they know ALL the answers and do not need know any more and who believe in one violent revolution that will set everything right,
various representatives of Nepali civil society do NOT know much. And that's a very good thing.
That's because these representatives are willing to find out -- through small, small efforts and through trials and errors -- what they can do in Nepal in their own small, small ways to make their societies a little more democratic, a little more accountable.
That's all.
On another note, I thought your poem was lousy in its STRUCTURE and CONTENT.
-- full of mangled metaphors (since when, tell me, "piss-soaked beddings?" have been "comfortable", even when used in an ironic sense?)
-- full of colorful but useless adjectives ("Pakandi? Straw-legged?")
That is why, to compare your poem to Bhupi's creations, even in jest, is to insult
Bhupi.
Bhupi remains Bhupi because of his
endearing angst ("galat cha mero desh ko itihaas")
his use of ironies ("haamee bir chau ra ta haami buddhu chau")
his use of metaphors (ghanta-ghar as a stand-in for a retired army person)
Bhupi's poems are still read because they tell us profund truths about ourselves in simple language, they give us hope to strive for something better and they shed a light on our absurdities and our pomposities.
You, kabi, a certified cynic, is NO Bhupi Sherchan.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| PASCHIM |
Posted
on 06-Jul-02 10:37 AM
I’ll let Ashu and Kabi-ji continue their conversation, but since I saw my name being dragged into this exchange over a remark that I have never made, I thought I’d correct a little carelessness.
Ashu, *nowhere* do I talk about ill-timed and well-timed cynicism. And nowhere do I assert my belief in “such a thing existing”. I said the *content* of Kabi-ji’s poem was,
i) ill-timed (coming as it did when the fate of KS is still being contested by many genuine rights activists), and
ii) his “blanket cynicism” was in bad taste.
But I commended Kabi-ji’s *style* which, I found, was “jhandai jhandai Bhupi Sherchan jasto”. Poetry recital (and practice of oratory) is one of my fondest hobbies, and when I shut my office doors that afternoon and recited Kabi-ji’s poem to myself, I heard and saw brilliance in it. While stating my reservation over the content once, and re-asserting it again, I had to accept this Kabi-ji, whoever s/he is, is one heck of a gifted talent.
I stand by my remarks; and have zero interest in joining this exchange between Kabi-ji and Ashu any further.
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| Shocked |
Posted
on 06-Jul-02 11:58 AM
Is this same ashu ..or some other one!!!!!
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| Kabi |
Posted
on 06-Jul-02 05:49 PM
Ashuji,
First of all, let me thank you for that little tutorial on cynicism. I concede my defeat and gracefully withdraw my statement about cynicism. As you appropriately suggested I should have said skepticism instead of cynicism. However, it was not solely my fault. As a matter of fact, you (mis)led me to use that word by describing my poem as a cynicism. In love, war and poetry, there is not much difference between skepticism and cynicism. Wouldn't you agree ?
And while I agree with the definition of civil society and appreciate the little civil activities seem to be happening, I still standby my view that what can be said civil society in Nepal has been a complete disappointment. Let us agree to disagree on this.
You found the poem lousy. But I am not offended, just sad. Though I would agree with you and disagree with Paschimji with gratitude that it was nowhere close to those of the great Bhoopi.
We should probably close this thread. Does not look very tasteful.
Bye
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| chirag |
Posted
on 06-Jul-02 07:05 PM
Kabi jee,
My appreciation,
A graceful withdrawal weighes more than an insulting egotistical spat for defence.
But please do keep on writing poems.
Hope to read them in the near future.
Regards!
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| ashu |
Posted
on 07-Jul-02 09:24 AM
Kabi-ji,
I adopted that strong tone earlier, in part to jolt you and others out of your
relaxed sensibilities. You know, to play around with Thatcher's words about
Gorbachev: It's nice to have a great smile, but it's also fun to show the teeth
of iron once in a while :-)
OK, that was a joke.
More seriously, though, come on, what's the point of loggin on to sajha if you are not goingto see a few kick-in-the-butt type of debates and discussions that get your
juices stirring, right?
Anyway, that said, coming to the topic at hand: I do NOT represent Nepal's civil society. But I do know a thing or two about it -- first hand.
That is why, if you have something substantive, something specific to discuss about Nepal's civil society (you say you have been disappointed by it, let's hear more about
it), sure, let us discuss that and look for -- in our own small, small ways -- POSITIVE ways to do our bit to help make our civil society better.
Such positive ways would go BEYOND the usual, general, vague criticisms and would
start addressing some deeper issues. You and I need NOT be experts about any of
this, but the least we could do is adopt a positive, if questioning, skeptical outlook --
and NOT make negative "blanket" judgments about fellow-Nepalis a priori.
Is that really a hard thing to do, kabi-ji?
After all, we can all sit back and criticise things that are happening in Nepal or make
fun of things that others in Nepal are doing. That's the easy part.
The hard part is when we start asking ourselves: When and how are we going to
take -- in our own ways -- small, small parts of responsibilities from where
we are now?
That is why, if you are just going to sit there, and offer nothing but blanket condemnation, that too, in a poem full of mangled metaphors and negative
adjectives, and start seeing yourself, even in jest, as Bhupi's heir, well, you've
got to be prepared to face some counter-arguments in this forum, kabi-jee. :-)
*********
Changing the topic: Though I am NOT a poet, I love poetry, and have organized
quite a few bohemian "kabita parties" (i.e.kabita recitations accompanied by a liberal flow of red and white fermented grape-juices!) in Kathmandu and in America.
That said, on a general level, I remain quite troubled by the EASY and LOOSE PRAISE that kabita and kabi seem to garner in Nepal and among Nepalis. I once took a course
in poetry-analysis, thinking that it would be an easy one. Instead, I was blown away
by the level of rigor that serious poetry critics routinely use to trash (often) and praise (a lot less) poems in America.
Since then, I have learnt that writing a poem is very easy.
But that writing a "good" poem, the one that "holds together" is very, very difficult, and better left to committed folks such as our own NK. [Still, my course apparently did not prepare me enough, for I fell for some poetry.com scam right here on sajha last year :-)]
In Nepal, my limited reading so far shows that the practice of offering good, solid poetry-criticism is khattam and jhoor, and as a poetry-lover sitting on the sidelines, I worry that when average/mediocre poets get the same kind of praise as good ones -- how are we to discriminate between good Nepali poetry and bad Nepali poetry?
This is one topic I discuss often with my friends who are kabis in Kathmandu: as you can imagine, I have a lot of fun calling their poems khattam and jhoor, and then giving reasons as to WHY their poems are khattam and jhoor, and then offering, as an engaged reader who wants them to do better, suggestions and advice.
All of these kabis are still my very good friends, and I hope, my criticisms here notwithstanding, you will remain a cyber-friend, kabi.
Have a good week ahead.
oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
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| Kabi |
Posted
on 07-Jul-02 07:58 PM
Ashuji,
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your diligent and trademark smart postings eventhough you admit you were kicking my ass. I don't know why but I liked it.
Re civil society in Nepal, I do agree with you that our small, small positive contribution goes a long way to build the kind of society we are talking about and that a blanket negative judgement does not contribute anything. There is no question about that. However, I was questioning the functioning of the civil society in Nepal so far. If you are satisfied with it, then I am going to change my mind trusting the credibility of Ashutosh Tiwari working intimately with the society in Kathmandu. This much I can say.
Re poetry I share your view that it is very easy to write poem but it is near impossible to write a good poem. To write a poem all you need to do is compile incomplete sentences with the parts of speech misplaced and place a few chaaloo metaphors here and there. You even don't need to know what you are talking about. A second category of easy poetry is sloganeering with no regard to the beauty of poetry. I guess my poem belongs to this class. That's fine. All I had wanted to do is to say something. And I am very clear in my socalled poem. It addresses three kinds of sick members of the civil society, talks about why and how do they react to an opportunity and presents an anecdote to back the assertion. If readers can recognize them, it served the purpose.
On a similar note, the news about a shanti-yatra of intellectuals led by an elephant in Kathmandu was encouraging one.
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| Gokul |
Posted
on 07-Jul-02 09:13 PM
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Who is a poet? Does he necessarily have to be an activist? What if he just sits and shows the ugliness, just laments at the hapless and despicable situation? Is he still not the poet?
MBBS once said,"Hamra sahityakaarharule brahmale dekheko kura kalam le lekhidiye pugchha." Isn't this true? The primary duty of a poet is to write what he believes is true. Once something is born out of that deep conviction, then with it is a timeless beauty and joy and that is what matters most.
Let us talk about Bhupi. When he was an active communist ("Sarvahara"), his poems sounded like party manifesto. Although he was offering to take "big", "big" parts of responsibilities, why nobody cares about those poems thesedays? Why we still like to recite "Yo hallai hallai ko desh ho" eventhough he has offered nothing but "blanket condemnation" in this poem?
For me, the bottom line (if you excuse the expression) for a good poem is the indomitable sense of truth and beauty. Everything else is secondary.
Why is "Sirish ko Phool" superior to "Anido Pahadsangai"?
So Kabijee's poem should be evaluated from the point of view of its Sahityik quality only and not by his social involvement and activism. As long as he is not claiming to be a social reformer, he can just write and still be a poet. Isn't A. Ginsburg's "Howl" a poem?
Kabijee - just be true to yourself and never ever say, "Prabhuju, malai bhedo banau."
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