| Username |
Post |
| Biswo |
Posted
on 14-Jul-02 09:48 PM
In a slippery floor, freshly waxed with pasty mixture of cowdung and
mud, there were some materials of Puja, most conspicuous of which
was red akshetaa and fresh precociously developed marigold.A small
crowd, I was among whom, was lounging around idly, and talking in
a small desk inside the house, while a strapping adult was honing
a Khukri in a whetstone outside. It was Dashain, Mahastami, in a
village of Chitwan.
Outside the house, I saw a small child affectionately caressing
a not so big Khasi(castrated male goat). Whenever he was pulling the
slouching ears of the khasi, it used to get irritated, and lower its
head and sniff loudly. When I came out to talk with the kid, the lady
of the house brought some grasses and put in front of the khasi, while
the mottled cow nearby looked jealously.
"They are not gonna kill this Khasi, are they?" the boy asked me.
" I suppose they are." I replied inconsiderately. The boy looked
shocked, and said, "But they said they are not killing it." He
ran away to his mom, and I didn't listen much, but the boy started
crying loudly and loudly.
I came back to the place where people were still talking. Some
had started playing card, and the boy's cries slowly receded to
distance.I guessed someone shouted him down.
Then a few minutes later, they leashed the khasi to that sacred place.
A man holded a plate full of rice, and the lady of the house put
tikaa on the forehead of the khasi. The khasi was again irritated at
having to take tika, but it looked like it was relatively pliant
to the old lady. Then it started eating green grasses placed in front
of it. Then suddenly, a boy held its rear two legs tightly, and the
man who was honing his khukri lunged with ferocity to the goat
and its head was dissevered within a second. Its head was thrown
to the distance, while a stream of blood gushed out of its turso.
Its eyes were still gazing at all of us in disbelief, its tongue
was protruding, and I felt like I was watching a nightmare. From
somewhere, the boy reappeared, and started crying loudly and loudly.
As for me, I just had one one of the most horrible memories of my
life, which would be engraved for long time to come.
Now, I figure out that this damn 'bali prathaa' is one of the most
heinous things we still have in our country. It has made us insensitive
to animals, and we no longer love animals. There are very few people
who love animals of jungle. Those who kill the khasi, which are often
raised in the homes, they lose their love towards the animals. If our
conscience is so much debased that we can kill the goat we so loved
and we so carefully raised, with whom our kids befriended, then , no
wonder, we hardly have any feelings for ferocious rhinos and roaring
tigers of the jungle. It has done great disservice to our drive to
animal protection, and not to mention the psychological effects on
our kids.Our kids horrifiedly look at the killings and take it easy.
It slowly make them accustomed to such killings. It is shame to wallow
in the blood of innocent small helpless animals and it is more shame
to kill them in house in front of the world. Why don't we make some
abettoir for commerical killings, and why not we ban public slaughtering
of animals, I wonder. May be I am just too idealist in this issue,
and I apologize to those who are offended my comments here.
The last year alone, almost 50 rhinos were killed in Chitwan, 40 of
which were killed by poachers.
|
| Mr_P |
Posted
on 14-Jul-02 09:52 PM
are you writing another part?
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 14-Jul-02 10:05 PM
Isn't this long enough bhaneko?
|
| animal right |
Posted
on 14-Jul-02 10:15 PM
Complaint against Nepal king for animal sacrifice
GUWAHATI: An animal rights group has registered a "prior intimation report" against Nepal King Gyanendra, tipping off the city police about a "possible attempt" by him to sacrifice animals at the hilltop Kamakhya shrine here
For more go to thread:
http://sajha.com/sajha/html/OpenThread.cfm?forum=2&ThreadID=5439
|
| someone |
Posted
on 14-Jul-02 10:28 PM
Good issue ! your posting reminded me one essay 'Baliko Boko' written by Harihar Shastri. It could be also one step to discourage violent culture being developed in present Nepal. I am wondering that why peoples(I mean not all; especially maoist) becoming so cruel and heartless in nepal? Even very sensitiviteness of very kind people are also being minimized listening news of everyday killing.
|
| nepali times |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 01:07 AM
http://www.nepalnews.com.np/ntimes/issue102/headline_2.htm
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 03:32 PM
Hi someone,
I haven't read "Baliko Boka" but I have one famous essay to remember whenever
I talk about poaching, "Shikaar" by Bhim Nidhi Tiwari, in which the writer so
tellingly expresses his repugance against the killing of innocent animals It used
to be in old curriculum of Nepali in highschools.
|
| Bhenda |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 03:55 PM
I remember crying when my folks killed the boka too, they would bring the boka and I would take care of it, feed it and evey year they would lie to me and tell me that they are not going to kill it, but they always did.
I have realised that Nepalese people were always kind of cruel.
|
| sparsha |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 04:01 PM
Biswoji,
I also harbor a strong dislike to this sacrifice ritual. The ritual is very barbaric. I am not voicing against meat eating practice (I am not a vegeterian myself-not defending meat eating practice either but I do eat meat) but I am against the "bali pratha". People sacrifice animals for thier own benefit not for the deity (ies) as they claim.
Three years ago I , with my other family members, was enjoying the ride on newly built cable car to Manakamana. At the temple there was this Baby Rango waiting, little did he know, to be sacrificed. He, the baby rango, was not feeling good, I guess. He was having hard time standing up. The people who brought him there were so sad and worried that now they may not be able sacrifice him for the devi. "Mar hanne" guy was all set for the baby rango but rango was not ready at all. I was feeling highly uncomfortable with that situation. For a moment that poor baby rango stood up and ......
Few people were circling the temple by dragging that dead baby rango. The scene was so disturbing to all of us that we wanted to get away from the scene as soon as possible. That scene bothered me for quite some time.
Bali pratha is cruel. Should be outlawed.
|
| ? |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 04:07 PM
Isn't there something called 'freedom of religion' in the constitution(of Nepal)? Just curious.
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 04:16 PM
Bheda,
Hey, you so aptly named your sajha nickname, no wonder you loved bheda,
and your story looked so similar to the story of the kid above.
Sparshaji,
I am, too, not advocating vegetarianism here. Though I practiced vegeterian life
for a significant time, I have been unable to give up my love of Kentucky Fried
Chicken, which was so ubiquitous in People's Republic Of China, and Taash which
my dear friend and fellow sajhaite Gandhi Bhattarai is so expert of making.
My issue is against 'public and cruel slaughter' of innocent, unarmed animals.And
I have concluded that it has such an immense effect on our collective psyche
that we are having difficulty persuading people why they should preserve
wild animals of jungle at the same time they are killing the 'friends of their kids'
at home. It is going to be more and more difficult to preserve our elephant
and rhinos unless we make people 'feel' that killing of those animals is inherently
wrong.
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| NK |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 04:28 PM
My friend Sparsha wrote: Biswoji,
I also harbor a strong dislike to this sacrifice ritual. The ritual is very barbaric. I am not voicing against meat eating practice (I am not a vegeterian myself-not defending meat eating practice either but I do eat meat) but I am against the "bali pratha". People sacrifice animals for thier own benefit not for the deity (ies) as they claim. <
***
We want our meat packaged neatly in styrofoams and plastics and smartly labled. We abhor the sacrifice ritual becuase we see it and we don't like what we see. The animals who get slaughtered in a slaughter house is so far away we don't feel any moral obligation to those helpless animals. Do morality and ethics acknowledge the problem of geographical distance?
The cows are injected with hormones and fed ships to cows and dead cows to cows and cows to chicken. Beaks of chicken are cut off so that they won't attack each other in a pakced henhouse( i don't know what these torture house are called). Do you know beaks of chickens are what eyes and nose are for us? The entire lives of these animals are tortorous one.
It is a common practice of farmers in the US to starve chickens for 2 weeks or so and then feed them a lot. During this time chicken start to shed their feathers and are barely alive. Do you know why they do this? So that they can lay more eggs!
Of course we are happy to pay less for more and glad that the blood and gore are out of our sigfht and these things are available whenever the heart desires. Aren't we lucky?
(note: Fast Food Nation is a great book if you want to really know what is behind the so called cheap meal you are eating)
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 04:29 PM
?ji,
I think freedom of religion is just too big an issue here. The posting is related
to the merits and demerits of public slaughtering of innocent animals, which
are often raised in the house and most likely to be friends of the kids of the
house.
And if one previous issue of Sadhana (years ago) was to be believed, Naradevi
and other religious sites were offered "Nara Dhupa" (incense of human body).
We did away with that tradition now, because we found it inherently cruel to
continue with such tradition. Hindu religion is undergoing evolution since years,
and is arguably one the most tolerant religions, so it is not considered
blasphemy in Hinduism to talk about one of its practices. Remember that not
a single finger was raised against the declaration banning Sati Prathaa, though
Sati Prathaa had been a glorified tradition of Hinduism since time immemorial.
And , as a son of a devout Hindu mom, I have a right to discuss the merits of my
own tradition with friends, don't I?
|
| NK |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 04:30 PM
oops, i see biswo posted before i did. biswo, please take my posting as an answer to your last posting too.
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 04:47 PM
Hi NK,
A reason to go to Barnes and Noble and pick up that much touted book, "Fast
Food Nation". (In another note, tired of conservatives running show in prime
time TV? tune into MSNBC for Donahue, our Ralph Nader supporter liberal,
and father of today's talk show tradition, he is back from today!)
OK, NK I am not taking this big issue of 'anti-meat eating practice' here
because it is just too big an issue for me. And I am not sure about the
de-beaking of chicken etc, because I lived in the district very famous for
paultry farming, and I never witnessed such cruelty. The way paultry
farming is done is totally professional, there is lack of interaction between
chicken and men, there is not much love between mother chicken and
children chicken(!) because they are 'bikaase' and believe me, since
I would sound so big time hypocrat here, I haven't felt much regret at
eating Kentucky Fried Chicken.
But those killings , like the one I mentioned above, are just too brutal to
witness. Worse, it may be detracting our conscience, and like I said
before, making us inimical to and inconsiderate of other animals who share
the world with us. If the mankind becomes vegetarian tomorrow, I would
be definitely ecstatic,but rightnow,I would be happy if we stopped brutally
killing khasi/bokaa at home and inflicting psychological trauma at our
kids.
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 04:56 PM
hypocrat = hypocrite , sorry for mistake.
|
| ? |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 05:15 PM
Calm down, easy, cool.....I was asking whether such clause exists in the constitution of Nepal or not. I was wondering if the ritual sacrifices were legal under the framework of the 'law'.
About the society doing away with the human sacrifices and sati tradition, I was wondering of your validity of analogy between them and the animal sacrifices. Now, dont get me wrong or misquote me, Idealistically and in the essence of the true natural philosophy, you're absolutely right but practically, I doubt it. Even if people start killing each other name of freedom of religion, there would be some other laws which would prevent that. Animals dont have the same(constitutional) rights as we do, do they?
Traumatic as they may be to the kid, its no less traumatic when he or she grows up and learns about the world. We have learnt that, haven't we?
Animal rituals maybe barbaric but what could be the civilized way of killing a life, anyway?
In the spirit of this discussion though, discontinuing such practice is very commendable better yet, the butchery and the public consumption of meat products be banned.
The right to kill each other (for consumption, absolutely no ritual or other hobos) be strictly reserved to the animals in the name of ecological balance. :)
chow!!!
|
| Mr_P |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 06:43 PM
ha ha, Biswoji, yes pali ko dashain ma khasi nakhuilayune?
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 06:54 PM
No Way, Hajur. Wasn't that experience of llast year in a village of Louisiana horrible
enough? That was 'the second nightmare', believe me.
|
| sparsha |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 07:05 PM
My friend NK,
I know what I wrote was conflicting. I am saying I am a meat eater and animal killing should be stopped at the same time. I knew what was I writing. Hypocracy? May be. However, I really dislike the bali pratha. That's why I wrote what I wrote. I did not conceal the fact that I am a meat eater.
"Ghoda ghas se dosti karega to khayega kya?" bhanya jasto kasaile kehi khana ta paryo. I am against cruelty to animals. I have seen people killing pigs in Dharan. That's worse than "mar hanne". I also have seen people sacrificing animals "alikati matrai ghati katera ragat ko fohora le murtiharulai nuhaune". Is this not cruel? This is what I am talking about.
Again,I admit I am contradicting myself but one does not have to quit smoking to talk about the benefits of non-smoking. If I don't quit smoking then I wont be able to reap the benefits of non-smoking but still can believe that what am I doing (smoking) is not cool.
|
| chandrasurya |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 07:15 PM
Dear Friends,
The western concept of civilized society seems to have seeped into some of our Nepali americanized friends.
If You will not stop eating and devoring a kentucky fried checken or such like then it is hypocratical criticizing those who kill animals in Nepal. Not only masu but Sanatan Dharma encourages us to offer all our food to our devi-deuta before consuming.
Since
As has already been discussed in the sajha forum, Hinduism incorporates our daily way of life. So it provides paths for us to live. Thus while Hinduism has conceptualized the "vegetarianism"-sakahari and soyampakya concepts we laugh at those concepts. Only to laugh at ourselves.
You eat meat then be ready to accept the consequences. It is your choice what kind of life you want to live. Hinduism has espoused "sakahariness" so don't blame hinduism for the animal sacrifice ritual.
Since I was small, my parents started offering naribal inplace of Goat. This is Hinduism in its full potential. Sanatan Dharma incorporates all. Just open your eyes to this way of living life and don't try to credit Hinduism for all the wrongs you do!
|
| chandrasurya |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 07:17 PM
Sajha left out the following part from my above posting. This is exactly in the middle after "Since" before the blue text begins.
Since
| chandrasurya |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 07:18 PM
Sajha left out the following part from my above posting. This is exactly in the middle after "Since" before the blue text begins. Hope this time it works!
Since Nepalis rarely get chance to enjoy a good masu-bhat. It is a special occasion for them. That is why they are greately delighted and therefore offer the goat to almighty as a show of gratitude.
|
| chandrasurya |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 07:19 PM
Sajha left out the following part from my above posting. This is exactly in the middle after "Since" before the blue text begins. Hope this time it works!
Since Nepalis rarely get chance to enjoy a good masu-bhat. It is a special occasion for them. That is why they are greately delighted and therefore offer the goat to almighty as a show of gratitude.
|
| oof |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 08:30 PM
Chandrasurya,
Who has criticized Hinduism here? Isn't this a talk about sympathy and pity?
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| all for bali ko noka |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 09:11 PM
Biswo ji:
I am wondering what is so "barbaric"about ritual sacrifice of animals. Actuially I think it is heinous that the western world has sanitized meat consumptions to the degree that most people never connecteven think animal... when they pick up that roast or steaks at the grociery store or pick it off the menu in some resturant. Not to mention the horrific treatment most farmed animals suffer (veal - calfs that never see the light of day so that they are tender, juicy and light in color and goose pate -from the liver of geese that are starved then over fed for over grown livers. also notice that it is pork, beef, mutton and not pig meat, cow meat, lamb meat).
Ritual sacrifice as we practce it in Nepal has always facinated me. The process of doing puja and sprinkling water on the sacrifical animal are all symbolic. These rituals, I understand, are about recognizing life and asking their permission to be killed for food. The blood tika that you smear on your forehead is the ultimate recognition that a life has been taken... this might make some squeamish, but otherwise, think about it. How much more respect can you show an animal?( Besides not killing it at all and being vegetarian.) Native Americans have a similar ritual too supposedly... where they paint their face in blood after a successful hunt. I guess some would call that barbaric too.
I am not saying I have enjoyed the balis I have seen over the years. It is not fun to watch a botched sacrifice where someone doesn't sever the neck in one go. Neither is the blood and gore fun... especially in places like dakshinkali or taleju during dashain where the stench of blood is so over powering that one could throw up. But I think to condem balis as barbaric and psychologically damaging to kids is being a little too hasty. Rather than sparing the kids the "trauma" of witnessing sacrifices, maybe what elders need to do is explain the significant of the ritual and educate the child what those rituals mean. I think ritual safcrifice is about showing respect to life and to recognizing life.
Unlike those unfortuantes chikens who make the menus of KFC, most chikens and other animals who come under the swift blows of khukuris during dashain and other festivals are loved, respected and teated with great dignity. Whenever we got a khasis or chyangra for dashain the animal woulf be fed and cared for and treated with respect and dignity. We were not allowed to tease those animals and poke at them as kids are prone to do.
And please tell me what does the poaching of rhinos have to do with khasi sacrifices? Apples and oranges really. someone in also said somethign about killing unarmed animals... well, won't it be the day when animals start bearign arms (planet of the apes, is it?).
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 11:14 PM
Chandrasuryaji,
I would like to reiterate that this thread is not about religion, not about religion
bashing or supporting. It is all about compassion, and how we are supposed to
justify a killing of small khasi that grew up in our house, with whom small kids
of our house played, and whether that was the reason we gradually lost
sympathy for all animals, and whether that is the reason that inhibits us
from stopping, or subjecting to public opprobrium, the poachers who
only last year killed more than 40 rhinos in Royal Chitwan National Park.
All For Baliko Bokaji,
Thanks for your insightful reply.
>Actuially I think it is heinous that the western world has sanitized meat
>consumptions to the degree that most people never connecteven think
>animal
Again, my posting was not about praising Western World or its practice.
I am against any kind of cruelty against animals. I don't know about
the practices of Western World, because I have not seen any
public slaughtering here until now. I have seen people waiting for
minutes in road so that the dazzled armadillo crosses the street and
they can go, in stead.
>Ritual sacrifice as we practce it in Nepal has always facinated me. The process
> of doing puja and sprinkling water on the sacrifical animal are all symbolic. These
>rituals, I understand, are about recognizing life and asking their permission to be
>killed for food. The blood tika that you smear on your forehead is the ultimate
>recognition that a life has been taken... this might make some squeamish, but
>otherwise, think about it. How much more respect can you show an animal?
>( Besides not killing it at all and being vegetarian.) Native Americans have a
>similar ritual too supposedly... where they paint their face in blood after a
> successful hunt. I guess some would call that barbaric too.
Interesting perspective and is difficult to argue. But my argument is focussed on
something more than just killing and acknowledging the killing. I , in fact, have
said that I have no problem with abattoir killing. It is pubilc killing, it is the killing
of animals that our kids befriended, that I am disgusted with.I understand that
the issue of eating meat or practicing religion are broader fields.It is about
how to eat or kill those animals that I wanted others to focus on. Somewhat
analogous is the example of why two adults don't mate in public. It is because
despite its truth, it is appropriate for viewers, and it will represent insanity.
>And please tell me what does the poaching of rhinos have to do with khasi
>sacrifices? Apples and oranges really. someone in also said somethign about
>killing unarmed animals... well, won't it be the day when animals start bearign
>arms (planet of the apes, is it?).
My point was:Since we practice public slaughtering, we are slowly making our
kids accustomed to such killings of animals. It gradually became a factor which
inculcated somewhat vague notion of predator-prey relation of human and
animals in the minds of a lot of our kids. This may be one of the reasons why
we are not shocked at these rhinos killing. And coming from Chitwan, I have
heard some local villagers proudly telling me how they killed
a tiger (see a story in www.suskera.com for one such real incident incorporated
into a story,the story is not so good but it is about jungle and hunting so is relevant
here), and I think that those who killed those tigers definitely lacked a compassion
for those animals. My question in the posting was this: did our culture fomented in
us the pride of killing animals? Are our kids being unduly exposed to gore and
slowly made accustomed to animal slaughtering? And are these the factors that
somehow contributed in producing those death number(48) of rhinos last year?
And I thought yes as an answer to all these questions.
|
| tiramisu |
Posted
on 15-Jul-02 11:17 PM
condemning a non-veg, i am not.
but then, as ? pointed out, either in full view or out of sight, killing animals for food will be just that, gory, at the end of the day. but i do denounce the practice of 'killing them while young' for the taste of it, like a calf to be brought to the table as 'veal', piglets as 'baby roasted pig'. but then, what life, if they have any, under those filthy conditions in which they live only to be slaughtered one day..life is like that, theirs that is, full of buts...no ifs.
|
| NK |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 10:03 AM
Dear Biswo,
It seems to me you want to dictate where this thread should go and how. My friend, if you don’t have an answer for some of the questions raised here, then please say so or just ingore. If one looks at only one day’s posting, one immediately sees that subsequent postings do not follow any pattern. Some posting may reinforce what the originator meant and some may add some new issues, some maybe completely off the track and some may add a different level to the original posting. You as an originator may want have a control who posts what but that would be a pure folly. I am surprised that I have to come here and say this to as seasoned and as responsible poster as you, Biswo.
Sparsha, Let me say this first: I am not a vegetarian. To appreciate milk you don’t have to be a cow. I was not lecturing because I don’t eat meat somewhat I am sitting on a higher moral ground. My sole purpose was to examine ourselves. Where does this repulsion of seeing an animal being killed come from? If you don’t see something as bloody and as inhumane as this (slaughtering of animals in a public space), then you don’t bear any responsibility? What is our ground that we stand on? How shaky is our ground that we stand on? I wanted to give this issue of slaughtering a moral dimension, you may even say somewhat deeper meaning. (now don’t go on accusing me of being oh-what-a-depth-ms.old-NK). A slaughter is a slaughter is a slaughter. Are we compassionate towards these animals because we think they are closer to us than we like to think? It definitely appears so. Dear old Socrates said a long long time ago that an unexamined life is not worth leaving’ and I just want to make my life worth living, that is all.
And Biswo, linking directly rhinos killing and slaughtering goats over and over only tells a partial (if any) truth. There is a socio economic, greed, and many other factors. Until very recently (before the Maoist insurgency) we used to hear our culture is peaceful because we take out our aggression in a ritualized (even somewhat “civil”) manner. We don’t let the innate aggressiveness fester and make it unruly! And tell me if seeing these public slaughtering of goats demonize us, then how come you, my friend Biswo, are talking against this ritual? Why does bhenda in his moving posting come out speak against it? Why is Sparsha revolted by this?
How come all three of you are not in some sort of poaching expedition???
|
| Sainla |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 10:39 AM
Interesting discussion,
But I sense that some of our Nepali bros have become ameriknized with a heavy dose of bourgeois, liberal sensibilites and pretensions. As a Nepali, I think the Gorkhali way of killing or sacrificing an animal for meat is the most humane in the world, just a 'jhatka' with a khukuri that taks less than a second.
Compare that with the Muslim butcher who slits the throat and lets the animal witness its own death for a long drawn out agony. In fact there were protests in England against the Muslim halal practice of animal slaughter...it was defeated on religious grounds.
The way meat animals are killed here in the civilized, liberalized, humane, or professional slaughter houses is probably the worst! Animals are not killed instantly, they die 'piece by piece' as they go through the various electric shock, hot water tub, the huge hooks, and the chopping board along the assembly line. Many of the workers on the assembly line say that some of the animals are still alive even when parts are being chopped off! Imagine! Just because it is sanitized from public view does not meant there is no cruelty there!
So let us learn to appreciate that is good in our own customs!
Jai Nepal
|
| NK |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 10:50 AM
In my haste, I did not read 'all for bali ko boka' which I think is a very good posting/explanation on this ritual and also about west's "practice" of killing and consuming animals.
|
| mannerman |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 11:11 AM
Taking a life is gross. "all for bali ko noka" has aptly stated that "The blood tika that you smear on your forehead is the ultimate recognition that a life has been taken... "
Since there r those people like Biswo who "have been unable to give up my love of Kentucky Fried Chicken" Sanatan Dharma asks them to recognize the life that they have just taken. You cannot go on consuming KFC or beef burger thinking that you are clear of your conscience. My God, you are eating a life * and you don't even think about it *
|
| silent scream |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 11:17 AM
talk about anthropocentrism! just because one chooses not to look at trees or veggies in the *eyes* ('cept fo' them 'tatoes?!) and hear their silent *screams*, doesn't mean that one is not killing them and that they don't suffer in the process.
what about yarsa gumba? isn't that the *walking stick* in nepal that's part insect, part vegetable which is harvested unsustainably and touted and used as an aphrodesiac? is it humane to *murder* them critters just to buy an erection?
save the critters, eat a PETA! ;)
|
| . |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 12:13 PM
..
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| all for bali ko boka |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 12:18 PM
Right on NK ji!
It does seem like Biswo ji is trying too hard to control the thread.
Biswo ji:
The question is the age old one... if noone heard the tree fall in the forest, does that mean the tree did not fall?
We are humans... we are omnivors. We eat animals. We might want to think we are not predators, but the reality is that our relationship with animals is unequal. We kill animals to eat them.
Just because a killing takes place in a dark, rancid slaugther house (in the case of Nepal) or a sterile room here in the states, just because "no one" (meaning other than the person with the khukuri or the gun or whatever it is that they use to KILL animals in slautherhouses here use) saw it, does it mean it is not grotesque.
Publics killings serve a larger purpose. It is not about revelling in death or inculcating the young to a culture of killing. It is about recognizing that we are dependent on another life for sustenance
The same person who stops her car in some highway for an opossum (never seen an armadillo) is also the same person who get a rare juicy 12oz steak or adopts a vietnamese pig as a pet only to abandon it when it gets fat and big.... or for that matter, she is that idiot who stops her car to save an opossum only to endager the family in the car behind hers.
Mating in public? What does that have to do with killing an animal? What are you saying? I just don't get the paralell you are trying to draw! I think because there is none.
Maybe you are saying what is "socially acceptable"? I would say that too depends on who you are talkign to. The level of public display of affection here in the states say versus Nepal, for example.
In addition to teaching teh value of life, I say parents need to take the opportunity to teach anatomy, biology and the likes when they kill an animal. Hey I would have never known what nose and brain worms look like were it not for the bali ko boka one dashain! What about how lungs work? You ever filled a lung with pitho and masala? And stomachs and kidneys? Let us not act like being human is a clean dignified business. We are still in the primodial swamps in many ways!! And if we want to get beyond by carting off the unpleasantness into some dark corner...well that won't do.
Anyone ever read Ursula Leguin's story about this utopian community with the kid in the basement??
Biswo ji, check it out!!
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 01:09 PM
Hi NK and others,
I appreciate your views, but I think you are unjustifiably berating me of
controlling the contents of threads. I wanted to talk of 'yo religion yesto
tyo religion yesto' out of this discussion, because talk about religion
gets bekaarmaa nasty and take us nowhere. There is one religion that
believes in idolatry and improbable explanation of the birth of this planet,
another religion believes a guy to be the son of god, and another
religion believes their god went to heaven alive riding in a horse from
a city in the desert of middle east. And they accuse others of
being silly.I don't get it, and so I prefer not to entangle myself in that
mudslinging.
And about murders. I have acknowledged apparent contradiction in my
preference for KFC and my opposition of public slaughtering. No where
did I say all western killing practice are right. It is public killing of a khasi
in front of teenagers and infants that bothers me. It is the disregarded
bond between the kids and those pets that I find revolting. I too have
sufferred this in my childhood, and I feel that more strongly now as I
have grown up.
NK asked why the same culture which 'supposedly' benumbed hundred
others let the compassion be developed in some of us.I don't pretend to
have all the answers, and I don't know the answer of this question. But
in my opinion, I think it is because of our exposure that transcended the
locality of influence of those tradition. And in my case, these two things
surprisingly are disparate, one represents our eating habit, which most
of us learn from our childhood, and kinda get addicted. Like rice, like
coffee, it is inveterately present in our diet,and despite our trials,
we can't get away with it at once.While opinion about murdering
represents our revulsion against snapping a life in public. To me
they are different.
There are some who say human are herbivorous because they don't
have sabre-like incisors like those of other herbivorous. Some claim
we are omnivorous, by birth. Irrespective of whichever might be
true, I know I can't dispute the fact that most people in today's
world eat meat. And so I am not going to challenge that habit here.
Man, if it is in survival struggle with animals, can eat meat.[To recall
a famous decision by Pope : Pope even exculpated the survived few
of a plane crash in South America(Bolivia), they survived by
eating the remains of men in the frosty land!]
But killing shouldn't be done indescriminately. If we have civilized mating,
killing deserved the same. Just because we have to take life doesn't mean
we have to take life of an animal which was reared in our own house,
and which befriended our kids. Our kids will grow accustomed to gores
and cruelty then. Animals, as well as men, will be the one who will suffer
because of this. That was all I was trying to express.
|
| sparsha |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 01:13 PM
Dear NK and others,
"...Again,I admit I am contradicting myself but one does not have to quit smoking to talk about the benefits of non-smoking. If I don't quit smoking then I wont be able to reap the benefits of non-smoking but still can believe that what am I doing (smoking) is not cool. "
This is what I wrote earlier. I don't know how animals are killed in salughter houses. Don't know where these death houses are. Have no interest in visiting one. I am expressing how I feel about something. What's wrong with that? I am not asking anyone to change their views on bali pratha or animal killing or meat eating. What's there to feel Proud "Garba garne tyasto ke chha?" in killing a defenseless animal? This is what I have not understood.
I careless whether someone agrees with me or not but I just don't like cruel killings of animals. This is what I am saying. Bigya hajoor-haru, am I not entitled to my thought on something?
|
| mannerman |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 01:57 PM
Mr Biswo,
You are a personality of contradiction.
In this very thread you said that "I would like to reiterate that this thread is not about religion". Then after a few other postings amply answered your frivolous queries you started saying
"There is one religion that believes in idolatry and improbable explanation of the birth of this planet". So who is talking about religion NOW?
Also let me inform you of a few more things. The english have defined "idolatry" as 1Worship of idols.
2Blind or excessive devotion to something.
This takes on a negative connotation of its own thus dragging a particular religion into your discussion chain. Though you might have made your every attempt to sound neutral ( as opposed to remain neutral), you were not able to hide under your veil any longer.
Animal sacrifice has long been touted by the conversion specialists as one of the evils of Hinduism while they themselves are responsible for endangering millions of species through their hidden cruelty. Dropping a bomb on a wedding party is every bit and more so as evil as butchering a couple in Kathmandu. The only difference is that we do not get to hear from the dead person's relative because there are non(All are killed).
Again let me reiterate that "You cannot go on consuming KFC ... thinking that you are clear of your conscience... and that you are somehow superior to those who have to cut the animal in the first place to eat it. They do not have supermarts to go buy a pound of flesh!
Or, are you thinking of supplying flesh to them once they stop their Animal sacrifice ?
As for not showing a killing of animals you are too late now. By the time a kind is 18 s/he has seen Hundreds if not thousands of murders either direct or through tv. How long do you want to keep the children in the dark?
Its a cruel world out there and hiding the truth from them will not make it any less so. The child in your story might have cried for some time but once the elders showed him the workings of lungs and hearts and he got to eat the tasty meat then he must have enjoyed the meat didn't he?, Biswo ji. Now don't tell me that the child didn't eat his pyaro khasi because I won't believe you. Believe me, Biswo ji, I have seen such children.
|
| mannerman |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 02:03 PM
And I must add that there is nothing wrong with that! I mean eating the khasi which you have raised. Yehi ho gaunle jivan.Yehi ho Nepali jivan.
|
| NK |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 03:36 PM
My dear sparsha, I did understand what you were saying. Am I allowed say what I am thinking? And Biswo, I was just trying to make you you aware that that's how you come off as - dictating this thread. If you go back and read it one more time I am sure you will see what I and that funny named poster meant.
|
| silent scream |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 03:51 PM
where's the outrage???
i can't HHHHHHEEEEEAAAAARRRR you!
|
| sparsha |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 03:54 PM
"Am I allowed say what I am thinking?"
Absolutely, NK.
"My dear sparsha, I did understand what you were saying."
Thank you.
Cruelty shouldn't be our tradition. No?
|
| mannerman |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 04:09 PM
Sparsa,
What is cruelty?
|
| all for bali fo boka |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 05:29 PM
"But killing shouldn't be done indescriminately."
Who is killing "indiscriminately"? Nepalis who can barely afford their yearly khasis? Nepalis who make a big pomp and ceremony to celebrate their one or two big splurges of the year by getting a bali ko boko for the whole family?
I daresay, NOT.
I for one an not trying to "berate" you, Biswo ji (And I love it that now it is "NK and *Others*"....................). Just want to point out some problems with your assertions. Maybe you didn't mean to "condemn" hinduism or Nepali culture, but it sure sounded judgemental and derogatory. And your defensiveness makes me think that you just want a forum to air your own opinions, but not have a dialogue. So much so that I have to echo silent screem here (with a slight modification):
What's the outrage?
i can't HHHHHHEEEEEAAAAARRRR you!
If it's just a soap box you are looking for, well, put a disclaimer, a guideline for what it is you are expecting of people who read your peice. Even then know that as soon as you post things in a public forum people with react and respond according to their own opinions.
Sparsa said Bali pratha is cruel. I think maybe we needs to make a distinction between the practice of Bali versus what is done to the body, be it dragged around a temple or blood sprinkled ona doorstep might seem cruel, even barbaric. But again look at the meaning behind the rituals, understand it and educate yourself and othes about it. One does not have to like it or condone it, let alone do it. Just don't make blanket judgements about an entire culture!!
|
| rumble |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 05:46 PM
Is killing one or two boka per year cruel or is eating hundred pigs, and countless chickens cruel?
As someone has asked here:" What is cruelty?".
If you got to eat then somebody has to kill right?. But don't say that eating hundred pigs makes you civilized and sacrificing 1 boka per year makes you barbaric.
Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, cruelty is also ....beholder! Got it! May be its you who needs to adjust and make changes.
|
| Biswo |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 06:29 PM
Mannerismji,
>Mr Biswo, You are a personality of contradiction.
I was candid enough to admit it first, wasn't I? But I am not a contradictin
on religious issue.
I was neither reviling the religion you talked about, nor do I have any
intention to do so in future. I was only giving the reason why I am
averse to engage in 'religion' related, but mudslinging, discussions that
we have seen in other threads recently.
>Also let me inform you of a few more things. The english have defined
>"idolatry" as
>1Worship of idols.
>2Blind or excessive devotion to something.
Thanks for the info.
>This takes on a negative connotation of its own thus dragging a particular
> religion into your discussion chain.
No. I was fair enough to comment on all religions. There is no negative
connotation. I just said I don't get what those religions were asserting
when they say what I mentioned above.
>Though you might have made your every attempt to sound neutral ( as
>opposed to remain neutral), you were not able to hide under your veil
>any longer.
Will you please kindly say which (religion or non-religion) you think I was
supporting?
>Animal sacrifice has long been touted by the conversion specialists as one
> of the evils of Hinduism while they themselves are responsible for
> endangering millions of species through their hidden cruelty. Dropping
>a bomb on a wedding party is every bit and more so as evil as butchering
>a couple in Kathmandu.
This is another irrelevant anology. First those who 'dropped bomb in wedding
party' were not proselytizers. second, what is it to do with the discussion here?
>The only difference is that we do not get to hear from the dead person's
>relative because there are non(All are killed).
If you have seen the news, there were protest marches 'there' too against
bomb drops. I don't know how you figured out "All are killed".
>Again let me reiterate that "You cannot go on consuming KFC ... thinking
>that you are clear of your conscience... and that you are somehow
>superior to those who have to cut the animal in the first place to eat it.
You are entitled to your views. I never said I am somehow superior to those,
neither did I say I am clear of conscience. My first posting clearly says that I know
I have what Ishwar Ballav once famously wrote "aagokaa phool haru hun aagokaa
phul haru hainan" type contradiction.
>Or, are you thinking of supplying flesh to them once they stop their Animal
>sacrifice ?
This is another of your imagination. I mean ,come on, what kind of
response is this? I am a student here. I never said I am supplying flesh.
Don't put words on my mouth.
>As for not showing a killing of animals you are too late now. By the time a
>kind is 18 s/he has seen Hundreds if not thousands of murders either direct
>or through tv. How long do you want to keep the children in the dark?
What do you mean by "too late"? It is never too late to stop cruelty, my friend.
>Its a cruel world out there and hiding the truth from them will not make it any
>less so.
Yes, of course , it is cruel world out there, but we don't take our kids to surgery
rooms of hospitals, leprosy camps, hunting etc too.Nobody is saying we
should hide the truth. All I am saying is don't kill in front of them something
they have befriended.
>then he must have enjoyed the meat didn't he?, Biswo ji.
Well, I don't know , mannerismji. I can't guess that.
------------------
To all for baliko bokaji,
>Who is killing "indiscriminately"?
We. A lot of people in Nepal. I can show you people killing small paadaa paadi
in the bank of holy rivers, men dragging wild boar after shooting them to the
street of a local bazaar, and sit down to partition the game.
>Maybe you didn't mean to "condemn" hinduism or Nepali culture, but it sure
> sounded judgemental and derogatory.
Oh, come on. I didn't even use the word "Hinduism" or "Nepali Culture" and I
am surprised that people feel so comfortable to label my words against
cruelty 'derogatory to Hinduism' and 'Nepali culture'?
Why compassion to innocent animals can't be Nepali culture? How can you
say that killing represents our Hinduism? No , Hinduism is about compassion
and love too. Hinduism is about tolerance too. Hinduism is ,more than
everything, an evolutionary and adopting process too.
Furthermore, most of the Hindu saints were against killing of any animals.
An ideal Ashram always constituted the idyllic milieu where goats and
tigers frolicked together.
>And your defensiveness makes me think that you just want a forum to air
> your own opinions, but not have a dialogue.
That's funny. So, should I defend my position? Yet again, you are putting words
on my mouth. Where did I say I need a forum of my own. I am for dialogue,
if I were not for dialogue, I wouldn't be replying any postings, would I?
>What's the outrage?
>i can't HHHHHHEEEEEAAAAARRRR you!
Your reply says you are hearing me! Thank you very much.
>If it's just a soap box you are looking for, well, put a disclaimer, a guideline
> for what it is you are expecting of people who read your peice. Even then
>know that as soon as you post things in a public forum people with react
>and respond according to their own opinions.
Isn't it funny? Where did I say all these things? Oh come on, you are just
making this up, putting words on my mouth and launching your own soliloquy.
---
And yes, what's outrage among you guys? What's your position? Among the
spate of turbid fusillades, I am yet to find what is your position? People from
left say , I should be condemning everything, and people from right say, I
am fussy.
While all I am asking for is a DIALOGUE on compassion, termination of public
slaughtering of innocent animals because it serves no purpose rather than
bruising the psyche of our own kids, and not to mention, debilitating our
other animal protection drives.
|
| all for bali ko boka |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 08:17 PM
Biswo ji:
I am hardlesy surprised that you are still asking "what's the outrange among you guys?"
Can't speak for others, but I am not outraged by your argument per se (flawed as they are and being as they may full of the same types of mismatched analogies and paralells you accuse of others). Rather am amused that you want to dismiss those who don't agree with you by being defensive (which dare I say is very different from "defending " your position) and patronizing (c'mon, don't tell me all your "c'mons" in the last posting aren't dismissive. Sounded like you thougth you were speaking some poor dink moron who is intimidated or impressed by your fancy words.)
Now if you took the time to consider what others wrote, you might understand their position (I thought message boards are about dialogues, about exploring issues and not all about POSITIONS). But since you asked (as you obviously did not bother to read and understand the two other posts), let me spell it out for you....
I think the practice of Bali is NOT necessarily all cruel or barbaric. As far as killing of animals for food goes, the Nepali sacrifical rituals are ratherhumane and noble and are grounded in a deep respect for life. What is needed then is NOT a blanket condemnation on Bali pratha (a particular and distinct aspect of Nepali culture and Nepali Hinduism), but rather an understanding of those rituals and an effort effrort to educate people about what they signify.
what's outrage among you guys? What's your position? Among the
spate of turbid fusillades, I am yet to find what is your position? People from
left say , I should be condemning everything, and people from right say, I
am fussy.
You said ":While all I am asking for is a DIALOGUE on compassion, termination of public
slaughtering of innocent animals because it serves no purpose rather than
bruising the psyche of our own kids, and not to mention, debilitating our
other animal protection drives." Well, I am saying a DIALOGUE on compassion towards animal does mean that your arguement, getting rid of public slaughtering of animals (innoccent?), is the only one that hold water. I urge you to read my previous posts of all the differnt people who have spoken up again. Public balis DO serve a purpose. THey are about recognizing life and loss of life. Your not agreeing to it does not mean it is not so.
|
| manashalu |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 09:17 PM
I think main purpose of this thread was to raise voice against slaughtering of animals in public places which at the same time could be the demonstration of one kind of cruel religious practice for many people. Bali Pratha is ,of course, a one of the old tradition of Hindu religion and it could have it's own religious importance. I am a devoted Hindu and also think that there can be carried out 'some reforms' in our religious traditions/rituals if they have bad impact on our society. after Dashain, I have seen that many kids perform killing practice using 'kerako bot', ghiraunla, farsi etc. I have also seen that many women
,children and other kind heareted people close their eyes while animals are being slaughterd.
With a passage of time, many reforms were carried out in Hindu religion. We can also think twice about public performance of killing animals. We all know that so called lower caste Hindu were not allowed to enter temple in the past and now also, but many people have realized that it is wrong tradition and people have begun to change their mind, it also goes same to this issue if most of people think it's wrong kind of traition. In fact, religions are created for the welfare of poeple and society, not people live for religion(because there are also atheists in this world; I am not saying here we have to be atheist ). I support any reforms in Hindu religion which are carried out for the betterment of people and our society.
|
| manashalu |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 09:30 PM
In Mahashtami, Animals are slaughtered in every Hindu family, but my family decided not to continue this tradition in our home anymore because all of my family memebers are not not mentally prepared to see killing of animals.
|
| sparsha |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 09:35 PM
Mannerman,
what is cruelty?
Here is what a dictionary says, "cru·el·ty [krltee ] (plural cru·el·ties) noun
1. deliberately cruel act: an act that deliberately causes pain and distress
2. state of being cruel: the quality or condition of being cruel
3. LAW psychological or physical pain: the infliction of pain, distress, or anguish, especially when it is long-term and considered extreme enough to be grounds for divorce
Now, do I need to write any more for you?
You ask yourself, are we being cruel to animals when giving bali? Do hamra devi devata haru really need ragat ko fohora?
all for bali fo boka,
"Sparsa said Bali pratha is cruel. I think maybe we needs to make a distinction between the practice of Bali versus what is done to the body, be it dragged around a temple or blood sprinkled ona doorstep might seem cruel, even barbaric. But again look at the meaning behind the rituals, understand it and educate yourself and othes about it. One does not have to like it or condone it, let alone do it. Just don't make blanket judgements about an entire culture!! "
What do you mean by "we need to make distinction between the practice of Bali versus what is done to the body? When you say "bali" are you talking about the bali of kubindo or kakro -as well? or you mean just "offering" by bali? if you mean offering by bali then I agree with you, we need to make distinction and I am not against offering in that sense. However, what I don't like is the cruel way of killing animals. Have you been to dakshinkali, shova bhagawati (swabhagawati?) or some other tantrik and shakti peeths? have you seen how do they sacrifice animals there? have you ever been to Kot after kal ratri in Hanuman dhoka at the foot chowk of Tale ju bhawani to witness 108 dead bodies of bali "lying" alapatra? if "Yes" then you know what am I talking about.
Now you tell me the meaning behind the ritual. Can the same meaning not be served in any other way (that involves no cruelty?). What meaning were those people trying to establish by sacrificing a sick baby rango and dragging his body all over the temple? I don't think we need to carry on everything our ancestors did. we are not living in their age and also I seriously doubt Manakamana keeps waiting at that hill top for blood of animals. She is the mothers and we all (animals) are her children, if we believe.
If you are a taga dhari, do you do gayatrai mantra every morning and evening? do you wrap janai around your ear while emptying your bowels? If you are not taga dhari then ask yourself are you following all the rituals done by your ancestors? I doubt. Time has changed, rituals can be changed. We can still show respect to our gods and goddesses without being cruel to others (ghati reti reti bali nadiyi pani sayad culture ra tradition rakhna sakinchha- iswor prati bhakti rakhna sakinchha jasto lagchha).
I am willing to be educated, please be kind and show me the way. Don't be offended. I mean it.
"Just don't make blanket judgements about an entire culture!! "
Who is making a blanket judgements about an entire culture? I am voicing my opinion. All I am saying is I don't like cruelty to animals...(ghati ali kati retera ragat ko fohora le pooja garne is disgusting to me, I will never appreciate this). I do not agree with everything you are saying but I respect your opinion and I am not trying to discredit you. Let this be clear. I would like to apologize to you and others if any of my words proved to be insolent (to any of you).
|
| spider |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 10:27 PM
We as sensible and sensitive human beings know that hurting/killing others is bad. Yes when animals are killed, it hurts them. But can we step back and look at the bigger picture?
Aren't human beings animals? We're just a little more evolved. We have a complex system of language and we have developed technology and we live in luxury and we have the tools and brains to kill animals for our consumption. BUT, that doesn't make us less of animals.
In nature, animals survive by eating other animals. So what's the big deal about us eating animals.
|
| Kati lamo thread |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 10:37 PM
kati lamo thread... interesting pani chha... tara kunai pani reply thesis ko chapter bhanda kam chhaina.. kati khera padne.... Lau ba... ramro chha.. sabai ko jaye jaye hos....
|
| all for bali ko boka |
Posted
on 16-Jul-02 11:21 PM
Sparsha ji:
Please don't apologize. I have not taken any offence. I am fascinated by this entire converstaion we are having.
But khai ba, tapai kun Nepal ma hurkanu bho. Where I grew up in Nepal the dashain (actually during any slaughter) sacrifices were quick and merciful. It was considered shameful when people did not sever the head in one blow. Animals wre NEVER supposed to be sacrificed if they were sick. And this ghati reti reti bali dine was not common, except during shamanistic and tantric ceremonies. In those cases, I have been mesmerized by the entire ceremony.
I have been to dakshinkali and the various peeths. I HAVE waded through pools of blood on temple floors. It is gross, but oh well. If you are squeamish about blood, I figure that is just not the right place for you. I fo rone would never want to be the one to hold a khukuri. But I have respect and reverence for those who do. My understanding and experince of ritual sacrifice has obviously not been the same as your or some other folks here.
I don't wear a janai. I am a buffalo eating, proud newar with a strong tantric heritage with traditions that are grounded in respect for life and blood.
I will end my participation on this thread by referring back to what the original poster's arguement that public sacrifice of animals is somehow uncivil and damaging. It is up to parents to make sure their young children are not subject to sacrifices and slaughters at ages when they do not understand them and are traumatized by them. Yes, our practices could be even more humane. But making the killing of animals paletable by removing them from the public eye seems merely hypocritical and not necessarily more humane or compassionate.
|
| NoRacism |
Posted
on 17-Jul-02 12:54 AM
>poor dink moron who is intimidated
Mr BalikoBoka,
WIll you please not use words like 'dink' because that is a racist word. Thank you.
|
| mg |
Posted
on 17-Jul-02 06:40 AM
I agree 1000% percent with mr. bali ko boka. Animals sacrificed in temples live more dignified life and die more humanely possible (killed in one shot of a khukhuri) than the animals in slaughter houses and those who are brought in to make momos in Gallis of Kathmandu.
|
| all for bali ko boka |
Posted
on 17-Jul-02 08:08 AM
Okay, I said the last post was my last on this thread. But couldn't help respond to No Racism ji.
"Mr".... hmm why "mister"? did I "sound like a man"? Now yours was a VERY sexist assumption!! And it was NOT "BaliKoBoka", but "all for bali ko boka". so get it right!
"Dink" has multiple meanings if you did not check it out by clicking on the word already! And I WILL use the work as much as I want! Thank you very much!
|
| sparsha |
Posted
on 17-Jul-02 08:31 AM
all for bali ko boka,
"But khai ba, tapai kun Nepal ma hurkanu bho."
Ma pani tapaikai ra merai-ajha sachhai milayera bhanne ho bhane hamrai Nepal ma hurkeko hun. I am not aware of any other Nepal, I swear. :)
"Where I grew up in Nepal the dashain (actually during any slaughter) sacrifices were quick and merciful."
Merciful?
I think it was Iraqi President Saddam Hussein who once said he was doing favors to those who're being killed in Gulf war. How? well all those dead ones were on thier express way to the heaven. And it's him who arranged that glorious trip for them.
Anyway, I hope you are also against cruel killing of animals.
I am also taking me off from this thread with all due respect to fellow posters' thoughts.
Good day!
|
| noRacism |
Posted
on 17-Jul-02 08:31 AM
>"Dink" has multiple meanings if you did not check it out by clicking on the
>word already!
Your poor English. Check it with any American, Mrs.
|
| kfc in louisiana? heresy! |
Posted
on 17-Jul-02 08:43 AM
someone told me that biswo is down in louisiana these days. IF (as in, IF) that's true, and IF (what i really mean is IF) biswo honest his kfc habit, then he oughtta seek help immediately...or just grab a shrimp po' boy and some boudin (white, of course) sausage. then again, i guess there are kuires in k-du who prefer nakkali parsiko catsup on their nanglo momos. as spinoza said, there's no disputing taste.
"eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we may die!" ~popular louisiana expression
|
| NK |
Posted
on 17-Jul-02 09:06 AM
Just some thoughts came to my mind while going over this thread:
When there is a posting, does the originator "own" that thread?
Does he have to have all the answers poised by other posters after the original posting?
Does she/e have to prove himself right even if it is in the most limited category?
Do we say Nothing by saying a lot? Paragraphs after paragraphs?
When somebody says I am having a dialogoue does it automotically become a dialogue even when the evidence shows otherwise?
and last,
How hard is it for a person to say "I think my vision is limited so just git me a peripheral vision gogglesl will ya???" I am sure somebody like all for bali ko boka would be very happy to provide that much needed 3-D PV goggles.
|
| mannerman |
Posted
on 17-Jul-02 09:30 AM
Hey there has been a lot of activity while I was logged off. Somebody rightly said "kati lamo!".
Time for my rebuttal to Mr. Biswo's rebuttal of my rebuttal to his...
You said this thread is not about despising Nepali culture etc. But your choice of the title
"NIGHTMARES OF MAHASTAMI" speaks otherwise. I too am against cruel treatment of animals. But why choose "Maha astami" as your special target?
You might have said "oppose all cruelt mistreatment of animals (even while they are alive)" But no, you chose to specially target the greatest of all Nepali festivals -Dasain.
That is why you got all the answers that you did. It takes a lot of effort to write. If people are writing then it means they truely disagree with your way of thinking.
When I asked "are you thinking of supplying flesh to them", I was making a logical conclusion. If they are to stop sacrificing goats then somebody must supply them readymade meat. So it seems to make sense.
As for not allowing children see the bali. Grown ups should explain the significance of bali to children.
Now a days grown ups don't teach the morals to their children. And children too don't listen to their parents, being inflicted with the western ideology. The eastern culture is blemishless. But mix that with the impurities and you get a pot·boil·er.
Disclaimer: I am not a newar. I am a nepali. Dashain is celebrated in my house. I enjoy Dashain. My parents explained significance of bali. I am not a violent person. I show compassion to animals including goats. I try to abstain eating meat and prefer bali over some frozenmeat in a mart.
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 17-Jul-02 02:13 PM
balikoboka wrote,
>Rather am amused that you want to dismiss those who don't agree with you by being
>defensive
Isn't dialogue all about defending our position? Am I not entitled to defend myself?
> (which dare I say is very different from "defending " your position)
Well, we differ in this.
>and patronizing (c'mon, don't tell me all your "c'mons" in the last posting aren't
>dismissive.
Yes, it was dismissive. I was trying to dismiss the argument that I was somehow
insulting "Hindu Religion" and "Nepali culture".
> Sounded like you thougth you were speaking some poor dink moron who is intimidated
>or impressed by your fancy words.
I am sorry if that was your impression. I don't think peole here get impressed by
fancy words alone. And I have regard for you.
>Now if you took the time to consider what others wrote, you might understand
>their position
No, I've been reading other's postings regularly. And as a proof, I have started to
respond word by word so that no one gets confused.
In fact, others have failed to understand my position. I am talking about compassion,
kindness and the impact of killing 'friends of kids' on kids. But, the response I got
was something like I was insulting religion, I was trying to sell flesh to Nepal once
killing is stopped, and what about bomb dropping in Afganistan. Now that is not
something I shouldn't be responding to.
> (I thought message boards are about dialogues, about exploring issues and not all about POSITIONS).
Your thought is correct..
> But since you asked (as you obviously did not bother to read and understand the
>two other posts), let me spell it out for you....
That's funny. Which two other posts I didn't read and understand?
>I think the practice of Bali is NOT necessarily all cruel or barbaric. As far as killing
>of animals for food goes, the Nepali sacrifical rituals are rather humane and noble
>and are grounded in a deep respect for life.
humane, noble and grounded in a deep respect of which life? Which respect is this
when you drag a paado to the altar and dissevere it?
For your info, those who do 'halal' reply the same way, the say the 'halal' is the most
humane way of killing. Believe me, I have talked to those 'pro-Halaal' guys too.
>What is needed then is NOT a blanket condemnation on Bali pratha (a particular and
>distinct aspect of Nepali culture and Nepali Hinduism), but rather an understanding of
>those rituals and an effort effrort to educate people about what they signify.
Is Bali distinct aspect of Nepali culture and Nepali Hinduism? Aren't there others
who practice this Bali pratha? I think Bali is pretty common among Hindus except
for some sects.
Any way, you have your point which I respect rather than dismiss. But any dialogue
process needs opposing views too, and that was what I was offering.
>I will end my participation on this thread by referring back to what the original poster's
>arguement that public sacrifice of animals is somehow uncivil and damaging. It is up to
>parents to make sure their young children are not subject to sacrifices and slaughters
>at ages when they do not understand them and are traumatized by them. Yes, our
>practices could be even more humane.
I thank you very much for understanding my position.
>But making the killing of animals paletable by removing them from the public eye
>seems merely hypocritical and not necessarily more humane or compassionate.
It does. and You have a valid point. But my posting was about public slaughtering
AND its possible effect on kids. I was expressing my resentment towards that.
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kfc in louisiana? heresy!
ID: 67495994 Posted on 07-17-02 8:43 AM Reply | Notify Me
>someone told me that biswo is down in louisiana these days. IF (as in, IF) that's true,
>and IF (what i really mean is IF) biswo honest his kfc habit, then he oughtta seek help
>immediately...or just grab a shrimp po' boy and some boudin (white, of course)
>sausage.
Thanks for suggestion.I wish I could eat them. I have reduced meat intake very much
in recent months.
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NK Posted on 07-17-02 9:06 AM Reply | Notify Me
>ust some thoughts came to my mind while going over this thread:
>When there is a posting, does the originator "own" that thread?
Of course, not.
>Does he have to have all the answers poised by other posters after the original
>posting?
of course, not.
>Does she/e have to prove himself right even if it is in the most limited category?
Of course, not.
>Do we say Nothing by saying a lot? Paragraphs after paragraphs?
You are right.
>When somebody says I am having a dialogoue does it automotically become a
>dialogue even when the evidence shows otherwise?
No, not.
>and last,
>How hard is it for a person to say "I think my vision is limited so just git me a peripheral
>vision gogglesl will ya???" I am sure somebody like all for bali ko boka would be very
>happy to provide that much needed 3-D PV goggles.
It depends on the person. But why balikoboka and 3-D goggles? Some people don't
see anything even with charma chakshu, so what can 3-D PV goggles do?
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mannerman
ID: 71095299 Posted on 07-17-02 9:30 AM Reply | Notify Me
>Hey there has been a lot of activity while I was logged off. Somebody rightly said "kati
>lamo!".
Welcome, back.
>Time for my rebuttal to Mr. Biswo's rebuttal of my rebuttal to his...
That's right.
>You said this thread is not about despising Nepali culture etc. But your choice of the
>title "NIGHTMARES OF MAHASTAMI" speaks otherwise. I too am against cruel
>treatment of animals. But why choose "Maha astami" as your special target?
It is because I don't fake my experience, and my nightmare was about the
incident that happened on Mahastami.
>You might have said "oppose all cruelt mistreatment of animals (even while they are
>alive)" But no, you chose to specially target the greatest of all Nepali festivals -Dasain.
Well, I thank you for teaching me 'what to write' and 'how to write', and it is fun to
know your opinion that I was 'specially targetting Nepali festivals-Dasain". No I was
not especially targetting Dashain. I was reading a book somedays ago, in which
it is said that one can sacrifice 'kubhindo, nariwal, bel" etc in stead of khasi_bokaa
too. The so called Brahman castes are , especially, instructed for such sacrifice.
>That is why you got all the answers that you did. It takes a lot of effort to write. If
>people are writing then it means they truely disagree with your way of thinking.
Of course, I know, it takes a lot of efforts to write, it takes a lot of efforts to keep
on changing our responses, and I am also doing the same thing.
>When I asked "are you thinking of supplying flesh to them", I was making a logical
>conclusion.
What kind of "logical conclusion" ? What logic did you follow, my friend?
> If they are to stop sacrificing goats then somebody must supply them readymade
>meat. So it seems to make sense.
No. I was only against public slaughtering. I didnt' say I was against commercial
slaughtering in abattoir. My purpose was never so high.
>As for not allowing children see the bali. Grown ups should explain the significance of
>bali to children. Now a days grown ups don't teach the morals to their children. And
>children too don't listen to their parents, being inflicted with the western ideology.
I don't think western ideology is all we can blame for their inattentiveness. A lot of
parents in west too want their kids to listen to them. Western ideology is not all
about producing aberrant capricious kids.
>The eastern culture is blemishless.
Ok. That's your opinion. I think all cultures have a lot of good points and some
rectifiable points. Blemishless? I am not sure.
>Disclaimer: I am not a newar. I am a nepali.
huh. That's funny answer. Why should you say "I am not newar?" We are all same.
>Dashain is celebrated in my house. I enjoy Dashain. My parents explained significance
>of bali.
Your defense definitely shows that.
> I am not a violent person. I show compassion to animals including goats. I try to
>abstain eating meat and prefer bali over some frozenmeat in a mart.
I commend you for this.
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| tastes like chicken |
Posted
on 17-Jul-02 04:07 PM
i was just joking about the shrimp po' boy and boudin (more for me when i come down there soon). i just find it really sad that you'd eat kfc in louisiana, given the plethora of cheap, kick-ass culinary alternatives available in the fried chicken department down there. try it...you like it. enjoy! btw, which town/city do you live in? br? nola?
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| dashain |
Posted
on 08-Aug-02 03:46 PM
nightmare of mahastami
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 08-Aug-02 05:16 PM
Dasain,
Thanks for posting this picture. I hope this picture can help us visualize what happens
in Ashtami.
:-)
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| all for bali ko boka |
Posted
on 08-Aug-02 07:14 PM
What happens? They are holding the animal down so that the killing can be easy as possible, both for the one to chop the head and for the one whose head is being chopped. Who likes to kill? Maybe some who are either sadists or some psycho or maybe a hunter? huh? What do you say?
No one is saying that killing is fun, pretty or clean. Or without pain. Being killed hurts. It can be traumatic if you have to like sit there for some minutes with your head half lopped off. You know what I mean!
Or again, are we saying we should just let the machines do it, and thus not have to deal with the fact that when you enjoy that goat - or is it chicken that we are talking about the one served in KFC specifically - you are eating was actually KILLED. Meaning regardless of whether a machine does it or human with a khukuri, I'd say the animal suffers a bit. It is good for us humans to remember that eating meat means killing animal and killing animals means hurting something.
We don't want to forget that, do we?
If you just let the machines do it, you forget meat is animal. And forget that killing animals is not fun.
It teaches that to eat meat you KILL. Teaches a recognition of life.
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| ? |
Posted
on 08-Aug-02 07:15 PM
Maybe we could have images of animals being slaughtered in slaughter houses posted as well. Just to make sure that one day of ritual killing doesn't supercede the violence of those animals being killed in meat houses year around.
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 08-Aug-02 07:30 PM
All For Baliko Bokaji,
You are right, my point has been this: Don't kill in public, and let's not glorify
killing in front of kids.
Harvesting some animals for food has been human practice, and I didn't intend
to go that 'great' issue. Never.
What happens in Mahastami is most of us kill the goats that are raised, almost like
pet, in our house. With whom our kids befriended. That makes our killing unique,
more painful, and more barbaric. Killings are not equal, killing friends is more
horrific than killing enemies/predators. That is exactly my point.
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| Logical Sense |
Posted
on 08-Aug-02 08:15 PM
I agree with Bali Ko Bokaji and Biswoji and want to make an extened logic that there may be a relation in the way Maoist behead their victims in front of a crowd has lot to do with how we glorify the animal sacrifices.
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| NK |
Posted
on 09-Aug-02 05:28 AM
Biswo Posted on 08-08-02 7:30 PM Reply
ll For Baliko Bokaji,
You are right, my point has been this: Don't kill in public, and let's not glorify
killing in front of kids.
Harvesting some animals for food has been human practice, and I didn't intend
to go that 'great' issue. Never.
What happens in Mahastami is most of us kill the goats that are raised, almost like
pet, in our house. With whom our kids befriended. That makes our killing unique,
more painful, and more barbaric. Killings are not equal, killing friends is more
horrific than killing enemies/predators. That is exactly my point.
****
Biswo, I am also against glorifying killings, especially infront of kids. But you also have to understand what all for baliko boka and I was saying. If killing happens in some dark dank slaughter house with electric shock and their bodies gets hacked off infront of full view of public, and then the those neat looking meat package comes to your supermarket then let's be aware of that too. One cannot glorify KFC and at villify animal sacrifices in a same breath.
Also, YOu may have heard , in Germany that the govt. requires farmers (or any family member of the farmer) spend 10 minutes of their daily life with their pigs. [I know these Germans!] You know why? What is the underlying reason for this law? So that the animals can enjoy their life as long as they live. So that they won't go to slaughter house felling all lonely and depressed! If a life of an animal is going to be spent for our consumption then why be stingy in giving love as long as they live? As I said before, do you want them to grow up in a warehouse where they are raised in their own feces and fed their own and given shots of hormones as a bonus (so that they would reach optimum weight in 17 months instead of 4 years??). Think about it.
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| all for bali ko boka |
Posted
on 09-Aug-02 08:34 AM
Well, I better give up. I think it was established a while back in the thread that Biswo is really not keep to aknowledge let alone want to understand that there are any other way of thinking and viewing this issue.
Harvesting some animals for food has been human practice, and I didn't intend
to go that 'great' issue. Never.
When KILLING animals for food becomes "harvesting".... well, what can I say.
I think NK, you got your answer right there is that above sentence witten by Biswo. Slaughter house jinda bad, KFC jinda bad!
Soon "harvesting" organs too will be fine.
Sorry, but no thanks. I think it is important to remember meat is dead animal. I think it is importatn to remember killing hurts. How else will people learn?
On TV death is not final. Someone dies in this movie and is resurrected in another! From a Bali you see an animal's head being severed... and well, you eat it! You also drain the blood, clean the skin and wash the guts. It is lot more real. Then maybe you will not be a masu bhoot? ki kaso.
Whatever though. I am amazed that Biswo for being a smart man you are equally tenacious in not wanting to see things any other way. I guess putting your head down like a ram will mean everyone will eventually move from your path?! Hmm, I certainly will.
It is not fun to "dialogue" with someone who is not interested in changin his or her mind.
Kudos to you and your nightmares! certainly interesting...
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 09-Aug-02 11:05 AM
NK and All For Baliko Bokaji,
Dherai jhaparnu bhayena. Ali cool head bhayera mero kuraa pani sunidina paryo.
I have acknowledged your issues. But when I felt beleagured, I tried to clarify my
points, that I was not trying to address a whole issue of maanchhe vs maasu.
I haven't condoned any kind of cruelty, whoever commits that.
Just because some others 'too' commit cruelty doesn't give us license to kill
animals publicly and cruelly.I am sticking to this point.I never blamed you guys
of being 'ram' though you are also sticking to your points and are not going
to yield. So this 'ram' accusation is really not helpful. aba aru ke bhanne? Tyo
photo herda pheri naramaailo lageko chha, hajur.
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| ? |
Posted
on 09-Aug-02 11:18 AM
Can you pledge that you will stop eating (any) meat because of the cruelty that lies in it?
Idealism and Hypocrisy don't mix together, never.
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| dasain |
Posted
on 09-Aug-02 12:11 PM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>I think main purpose of this thread was to raise voice against slaughtering of animals in public places which at the same time could be the demonstration of one kind of cruel religious practice for many people. Bali Pratha is ,of course, a one of the old tradition of Hindu religion and it could have it's own religious importance. I am a devoted Hindu and also think that there can be carried out 'some reforms' in our religious traditions/rituals if they have bad impact on our society. after Dashain, I have seen that many kids perform killing practice using 'kerako bot', ghiraunla, farsi etc. I have also seen that many women
,children and other kind heareted people close their eyes while animals are being slaughterd.
With a passage of time, many reforms were carried out in Hindu religion. We can also think twice about public performance of killing animals. We all know that so called lower caste Hindu were not allowed to enter temple in the past and now also, but many people have realized that it is wrong tradition and people have begun to change their mind, it also goes same to this issue if most of people think it's wrong kind of traition. In fact, religions are created for the welfare of poeple and society, not people live for religion(because there are also atheists in this world; I am not saying here we have to be atheist ). I support any reforms in Hindu religion which are carried out for the betterment of people and our society.
In Mahashtami, Animals are slaughtered in every Hindu family, but my family decided not to continue this tradition in our home anymore because all of my family memebers are not not mentally prepared to see killing of animals.
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In fact, this thread almost came to some conclusion some time ago. I found a mahashtami photo of sacrificing animal when surfing some website and posted here. Now I am very sorry that same previous discussion resurfaced here.
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 09-Aug-02 12:13 PM
?,
I don't accuse anyone of being cruel because they eat meat. Let's be clear.
Personally, I was vegetarian until 20. While travelling in inland China in 1995, I went
to the inner region of Moslem majority, where restaurants served only meats, chicken
or beef. That's when I started eating chicken.
Like I said, I normally don't eat meat.Almost like vegetarian. No Mac also. Only KFC
but that is also so rare.(I don't remember going to KFC after writing this!!) I
concede to your 'hypocrisy' blame, but I also want to inform that I am not a meat
lover.
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| NK |
Posted
on 09-Aug-02 12:59 PM
Biswo, jhaparya kaha ho ra? I thought you were being just stubborn.
But after reading your postings I understood everything what you were trying to say all along. I think some thread just takes a lot of posting to come to conclusion, no? :)
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