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| paramendra | Posted
on 02-Aug-02 09:34 AM
http://www.geocities.com/paramendra/2002/socsegre.html |
| paramendra | Posted
on 04-Aug-02 11:32 AM
Social Segregation: A Necessary Phrase To Understand Contemporary Race Relations Paramendra Bhagat July 17, 2002 The United States, more than anything else, is a concept, it is an idea. It is not primarily geography, expansive as it stands, or, historically, an European offshoot, though the majority of Americans today might claim European descent. It is not a land of the "whites" that non-whites should feel grateful to be able to participate in, to whatever degree, mostly limited, more so further back in time you go. For all the criticism that can be levelled upon its reality in the geopolitic, of its racist tendencies, in the actions of individuals and institutions, of the historic sexism, patriarchy, similar deficiencies in its social psyche that marginalize groups unfairly and levy unearned advantage upon others, for its recorded excesses in the past on world stage, and possible excesses in the future, for its arrogance as a state, a tendency to go against tendencies toward rule of law at the international level, there is something vibrant about this oldest democracy that gives one hope that the wrongs that remain can be righted with the rights enshrined within and perhaps not always elaborated. You can not blame Newton for not having come up with the Theory of Relativity. His genius lay in what he did come up with. Not that there is any one person who unfolded the United States, but the original idea was no divine revelation, but was meant, from the outset, a work in progress, as it continues to be. As at times in the past, opportunities are around to keep expounding upon the original idea, to propose the most enlightened interpretation of what an individual is politically, and where the state stands in relation, not only for this country, but all countries in an attempt to suggest, though cultural diversity there is, and always will be, the basic tenets of democracy have universal appeal. There might be dictators and domestic concentrations of power in countries not yet democracies, entrenched and suggesting democracy is a western concept as opposed to a universally human one, as there might be powerful groups within the United States itself, bent on keeping the workings of government away from the common folks at home, and presenting it as a modern day Roman Empire abroad, a might that is right, and, damn it, mistakes will be made. Issues in race relations are very much alive today, for there have been too many suggestions too often in the history of this country that the individual as defined in the constitution is not the universal human being, but members of a particular cultural background, or a particular gender. A hundred years after slaves were emancipated, the civil rights movement rattled this nation. It just so happens to be that the period also saw a decisive end to colonization as nation after nation all over the Global South gained independence from the uncouth European powers, uncivilized since the days they landed on unsuspecting shores. The national movement had internatioal repercussions, just as positive developments like Indian independence kept afloat the spirit of the likes of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. There are people today, as there were 50 and 150 years back, who think those who see racism still existing today are too eager to blame others for their personal shortcomings that keeps them away from articulating and reaching out to aspirations. Well-meaning people tried to suggest in the 1990s that now was the time to economically uplift the minorities, and that is all there is left to do. That voice makes sense but is profoundly inadequate, if at all an attempt to articulate the new contours of challenges in race relations. Lunch counters might have been morphed by relentless struggle, but social space still remains segregated, as in social capital is a precondition to making progress, in forging relationships, in making and remaking coalitions. The segregated golf club, or the church, is today segregation in momentum. Romance along racial lines, it just happens to be that your best friend is also white, or black, if you are black. At workplace, the hanging out, after-work get togethers, just so happen not to overmix. Such are the seeming non-threatening outlines that belie a much potent interior of the social space as it exists today, and awaits defining, so as to see racism for what it is today, and to legally confront it. Change of heart is welcome, and of course the struggle will be social, and legal and political, utterly non-violent, but it asks for a greatly sophisticated understanding of political power, and how it plays out through various institutions, formal and informal. There is still rallying to do, but it might no longer be about marching, except if it mean marching in the corridors of power, so naturally as to almost appear casual. And the complexity of a legal confrontation of social segregation that enacts laws - imagine awaiting a change of heart among would be murderers with an accompanying naivete that has no legal weapons to confront acts of muder, you can't - and disinfects social space in a proactive way will have repercussions. A greater or, rather, total, cultural inclusion in the American democracy, not as a gift but as a birthright, will necessarily make "exporting" democracy morally easier, and might unloosen the resources to do so, will help confront the social ills in predemocratic societies, and also will unleash forces that will confront domestically tendencies like sexism and homophobia, among others, with a much greater enthusiasm than in the hitherto hush-hush approaches. 50 years after that new inadequacies will surely be uncovered, but at least this generation will have tried, and will have passed on the torch. 
|
| Nepe | Posted
on 06-Aug-02 10:21 PM
Beautiful essay. But too condensed and heavy- like Bhagavat Gita. Anyway, praise to Paremendraji ! |
| NK | Posted
on 07-Aug-02 08:40 AM
Phew! One down, 50 more to go. |
| Brook | Posted
on 07-Aug-02 09:39 AM
Fellows, even as a casual reader at Sajha, it hasn't been hard to dechiper the pattern in which Ms. Namita Kiran operates: when you have nothing wise to say on a topic resort to poetry and/or sarcasm. Of course, the more subservient among her fans might be quick to defend her ill-timed quirks as "light-heartedness" necessary to lubricate the flow of a serious discussion. But could it be that deafened by the applause generated by her own recent poetic success, our dear Ms. NK ( without whom Sajha would be devoid of humor) has lost her ability to listen to anyone but herself? Anyway, Paramendra dai, thanks for this yet another thought provoking piece. Although there are some areas in which we differ fundamentally in our opinions, someday, I hope to join in with you, intelectually of course, in pursuit of our common goal. |
| nattu2 | Posted
on 07-Aug-02 10:38 AM
If I believe my source Brook is an ugly obese nut case. She is jealous of NK. What the F*** is that when you say Namita Kiran? Who is she? If you are talking about NK and if NK wants to be NK then who the F*** are you to call her by that name???? HUH you asshole???? WHAT IS YOUR CONTRIBUTION TO THIS BOARD HUH A***LE? YOU WANT TO TALK intellectual with Paramendra dai? Wow! Give me a F****** break. Calling yourself Intellecutal. Do you watch Cops? I think you think that is an actual intellecual show. Gimmmme a break. Hey do you watch Baywatch? Let's watch it together. |
| Soleil | Posted
on 07-Aug-02 11:28 AM
Funny!!!......it's aptly titled...Social Segregation...yep..there it is.....and guess what?...just remined me of our age ole proverb....."aafno jiu ma bhainsi hindya dekhdaina ..arka ko jiu ma jumro dekhchha"....I am not using the proverb here as a lampoon to Mr Bhagat's work......but refererring to the social segregation bestowed by so called supporters of Mr Bhagat and Ms NK....and Holy Guacamole....what appropriate use of obscenity....Gorkhays have yet again proved they have mastered the English language, rhetorically...even Shakespeare would have gawked at if still alive......and Hail to Gorkhays.....I felt like using another adage...this time in Hindi, if you guys permit me...."sau chuhe khake billi hajj ko chali".... peace.... |
| su.............gar | Posted
on 07-Aug-02 11:29 AM
Dear Nattu2ji, I was taken aback by your outburst. NK or (Namita...xyz) didn't express anything about her/his/it dislike. Well you definitely demonstrated your intellect by all those "F***" and "As." word. Congrats. I don't think show (baywatch or cops or xyz) determines the intellect of the human being. However you can enjoy your perception. Regards, sangh |
| Soleil | Posted
on 07-Aug-02 11:31 AM
Correction....a typo....pls read remined as reminded.... |
| joie de vivre | Posted
on 07-Aug-02 01:58 PM
I agree with Nepe. While Paramendra's essay probably helped him get a good grade (if applicable), its too heavy reading. I personally believe in simple but effective writing (thank you, Warren Buffet!!). |
| makuro | Posted
on 07-Aug-02 04:05 PM
Paramendraji, Is this article of yours published in some other publication? Don't know where now, but I think I read some thing similar to what you wrote "The United States, more than anything else, is a concept, it is an idea" |
| paramendra | Posted
on 07-Aug-02 06:14 PM
Looks like you have started to read my epinions! http://www.geocities.com/paramendra/2002/epinions.html |
| paramendra | Posted
on 07-Aug-02 06:16 PM
Thanks Nepe. Kind words. Especially in light of some later postings! I hope to be able to expand this into a book down the line. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 07-Aug-02 06:17 PM
Brook, I think NK's "light-heartedness" is a welcome contribution. And I look forward to your further comments. To do with the specifics. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 07-Aug-02 06:19 PM
You have a point. But that is on style. What do you have to say on the substance? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 07-Aug-02 06:21 PM
Makuro: I am not sure what you mean. If you are hinting at the p-word, I will have to say, the idea that America is an idea, is not that novel of an assertion. Almost like saying Greenland is an island --- I am sure every geography book says that. |
| Junkie | Posted
on 11-Aug-02 10:51 PM
I agree with NK paramendra dai ..... used to love your point form style 1. TOPIC explanation 2. TOPIC explanation granted that it is an essay but it would be great if you posted a summary of sorts and paste the rest for other enthusiasts to further read. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 07:30 PM
Summary: Lunch counters might have been morphed by relentless struggle, but social space still remains segregated, as in social capital is a precondition to making progress, in forging relationships, in making and remaking coalitions. The segregated golf club, or the church, is today segregation in momentum. Romance along racial lines, it just happens to be that your best friend is also white, or black, if you are black. At workplace, the hanging out, after-work get togethers, just so happen not to overmix. Such are the seeming non-threatening outlines that belie a much potent interior of the social space as it exists today, and awaits defining, so as to see racism for what it is today, and to legally confront it. Change of heart is welcome, and of course the struggle will be social, and legal and political, utterly non-violent, but it asks for a greatly sophisticated understanding of political power, and how it plays out through various institutions, formal and informal. There is still rallying to do, but it might no longer be about marching, except if it mean marching in the corridors of power, so naturally as to almost appear casual. |
| SITARA | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 10:36 AM
Paramendra ji...interesting essay....about awareness of social segregation... Here is a different angle on the lunch room sitins. The youth who were in the sitins and those which spread like wild fire, initially started by the advent of commercial awareness not social. In the days of Jim Crowe laws and discrimination, the invention of TV made a huge impact. The TV sold, dreams, dreamlands, fantasies, commodities...regardless of race, ethnicity or nationality. The TV communicated "We only see the color of your money and not the hand that transfers it". The message was "you are entitled to...................". TV was the dream merchants that did not discriminate. Commerical media planted the seed of commercial purchases. The black youth were seduced....the sitins started and spread like wildfire!! Simultaneously social activists started campaigning for equality, thinkers like DuBois, Martin Luther King...came to the front. In the mean time overworked people like Rosa Parks were too tired and exhausted to adhere to "social norms" of those times..... The Harlem Renaissance attacked mainstream culture and art. All these factors (not all political or intellectual) came to playa major in the movement. In the larger "civilized", society it is not "civil" to openly discriminate....and yet "you" will notice the ivory tower in higher educations.... You will notice the "inner city" culture as an off shoot of the commerical awareness. Attraction to branded names, in clothes and culture. Kids come to school hungry but are wearing NIKEs and Air Jordons.... Sure equality...here but not necessarily social. they can't afford books but own play stations. There is a bigger social segregation among the blacks than among/between blacks and white.The educated blacks are called "white nig**rs" and those of lighter skinned are considered more "beautiful". So, social segregation in seems to have alleviated, society has afforded it other avenues to exist in inner city cultures. My point is, there is a larger population that seems to activate itself for "social" causes but it is not necessarily true. Many a times, critical thinking may not reach a mental conditioning through intellectual or political channels.....The timing has to be right to trigger off other factors thus creating a favorable climate for social change. |
| rato bhale | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 11:28 AM
OT, but here goes This "white is beautiful" mentality is also present among South Asians, and not just among Africans. Just go to Indian or Nepali matrimonial web sites if you do not believe me. An ideal wife would be fair skinned, educated and beautiful. Darker women are shunned. Furthermore, brown South Asians feel so inferior to whites that they opt using skin-whitening lotions and beauty creams to look lighter. I guess it has a bit to do with commercials propogating the "White is beautiful" myth. Even among whites, blondes are taken to be the ideal , hence the reason for seeing larger number of blonde actresses, newscasters, models, etc . Japanese anime characters look white. These seem to have this fetish with caucasian features. They even paint their hair blonde! Indian bollywood actors mostly are white skinned --something very rare in India -- and could easily pass out as Sicilians or Greeks. In South America, when a mestizo marries a more European looking person, he has climbed one step up on the social ladder, and will have more prestige. And in Africa, lighter skinned folks are perceived as better-looking. On a sidenote, V.S. Naipaul, who supposedly is one of the greatest writers of all time, seems to be infatuated with skin color. I have read some of his books, and all of them describe physical characteristics of black skinned Indians as ugly. Not only that, he seems to believe that low-caste Hindus are darker than high-castes, which is very false. I personally think blacks in the US are a tight-knit group. Segregation is usually between different races. Sure, light-skinned blacks (who are mulattos or quadroons or octoroons) are perceived as better looking, but most of them sure do identify themselves as blacks, and not as mixed or white. Halle Berry is mixed, but she calls herself black. Maya is also mixed, but she seems to ally with black singers. However, Vin Diesel hides his ethnic background. He did play a role as a sicilian in some movie. Also, please remember that African Americans are generally mixed. According to a genetic study I read a while ago, an African American has up to 30% caucasian blood on average. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 11:33 AM
Sitara: Yours is an informed response. I guess you keep a keen interest. Although I was not able to follow each thread of logic presented. "...Commerical media planted the seed of commercial purchases. The black youth were seduced...." That is interesting. What do you think will be the impact of the Internet as a new media? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 11:37 AM
Rato Bhale: Your observations about skin color are apt. What do you have to say about the English language? Say, as a social status symbol in Kathmandu, for example? |
| SITARA | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 01:19 PM
Rato Bhale... I am with you absolutely...in what you are saying. I was more refering to the general notion that even if an African American has one single drop of black blood, he is considered black however light his skin color is during the earlier days, it was more of a derogatory way of looking at a person..(black therefore saleable) and now it is a matter of being "African American" "Afro American" or "Black". As far as semantics.... During Du Bois' days, the word "nigro" was respectable but now the term is out of style. As far as celebrities, it is a matter of celebrating one's identity hence the statement "I'm black" which does not change the general desire for lighter skinned off springs. I was refering to the color discrimination more on a general Afro American population. An example: Calling a black child/youth "Herseys", "chocolate"," ebony" can start a riot even within the black community. And very valid observations on the "white syndrome"...exists everywhere; A legacy of European colonization. As for Naipaul,...I read that somewhere too. Paramendra ji, I suppose my line of reasoning does not run parallel to yours....different school of thoughts!!!! :) |
| SITARA | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 01:35 PM
Please overlook my typos.......typing is not one of my strengths. :( |
| rato bhale | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 03:03 PM
In Jamaica and the caribbean, a light-skinned "black" is not a black . He is either a Mulatto or a Quadroon or an Octoroon, or any other word out there to describe a mixed person. This IMHO, is a more accurate classification. "Black" is reserved solely for "pure" blacks. These days, a mixed American, who has a black mom and a black dad, or vice versa, may not be taken as black, if he so desires. The PC term to describe him would be multiracial. In any event, "One drop" rule to classify race is fallacious because historically, there has always been population movements. There is no race out there that has not been in contact with people of different race. The aborigines of Scandinavia, who are called lapps, look oriental. The Ainus, aborigines of Japan, look caucasoid. Indian aborigines are called Veddoids, who are Australoids. Surely, people have always been intermixing. "One drop" race classification is invalid, if you ask me. Now, having said that, and taking into account the fact that since ancient times, phenotype has dictated a person's race, why should a mixed person who looks 100% white be classified as black??? That doesn't make sense to me. Where did this absurd idea come from? |
| SITARA | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 03:59 PM
Rato Bhaley...Again, I absolutely agree with your reasoning. But the one "drop rule" however fallacious, was applied in a social and commercial context and not scientific one. It was easier to sell the African slaves as black regardless of their skin color. So, this "absurd " idea actually came from the days of slavery. Many slaves were raped and molested by their white masters and the off springs were of many shades of black/brown or white. However, since slavery was started for commercial purposes, it did not do much good for the lighter skinned blacks to be given the status of whites. Had they been given a whiteman's status, they would not have been allowed to be sold, by law. Same thing with the use of christianity in enslaving and domesticating the slaves. Although, the slaves were converted into Christians, they were not allowed to be married and live as man and wife. The church did not condone separation of married couples...so to simplify this complexity, the male and female slaves were encouraged to cohabit, mulitiply and increase the "human wealth" of slave owners, without marriage. One form of African marriage was jumping over the broom by both the bride and the groom but which was never accepted by the church. So, they were made to "live in sin", procreate and multiply. The christain church in turn did not see it "evil" to sell the "products" of sin, although they had all been converted to Christianity. There is a vicious line of reasoning in both thoughts which systematically broke down the family systems of the black slaves. You do have a scientific reasoning which did not apply in the commercial motive of slavery. This mental conditioning of "one drop" as well as "cohabiting and having as many children as possible", has been handed down till today. If you notice the "inner city" culture you will see the same mind set now. The colonization and slavery in the Carribeans took a different form of slavery than the one in the US. Haitians and most carribean Island population openly acknowledge benefitting from colonization by France, England....etc. US blacks do not. Again, the instruments of social control have nothing to do with scientific evidence. Along the same lines, if you look up, Emancipation Proclamation, you will notice that Lincoln "freed" the slaves in the South, first!....Here, I am reasoning that likewise Political motives may have nothing to do with social welfare and desegregation..... going back to the original thread title. Religion, Education and politics... were/are institutions of social control.... relative to the time and environment of a society....has nothing to do with scientific facts, figures and evidence. I f such facts mattered, history books in public schools would have to be re written... ...starting from the systematic disintegration of Native Americans!!!! The reference to slavery and rights of Native Americans, is still vague in school books ....This type of simplistic (not critical) approach is called the "mis- education of the nigro" and the American population as a whole. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 04:36 PM
Sitara: Thanks to you and some others, this discussion is really taking off. It is important we discuss race relations in the global and western contexts. The Anatomy of Racism http://www.geocities.com/bhagat266/a/anatomyofracism.html To define racism as a pathological state of the mind only plays into the hands of the racists who then propose gradualist approaches to dealing with the phenomenon The strongest evidence that racism is a tool in the competition for political and economic power is that racism is more prevalent where the concentration of power and wealth are greater: the more prominet institutions in the business, government, education and the media sectors tend to exhibit greater instances of racism in their internal operations than their less influential counterparts. African-Americans in Hollywood Films http://www.geocities.com/bhagat266/c/blacksinfilms070298.html The silver screen feeds on the society it is a part of and that must also be true of the portrayal of race, "one of the most emotionally and politically charged subjects in the American social psyche and media imagination." (Guerrero 42) The black-white divide in the United States persists, on the movie screen as in the society at large. The African-American population has been kept "in place" to maintain the "white-dominated symbolic order and racial hierarchy of American society." (Guerrero 2) The film industry preaches the dictum of white superiority on the silver screen and the devaluation of the blacks in one-dimensional images as "criminals, servants, comics, athletes, and sidekicks." (Guerrero back cover) For most of its history the American cinema been a world exclusively of the whites. (Jones 20) Interracial Dating http://www.geocities.com/bhagat266/a/interracialdating.html The trend towards interracial relationships is growing though only minimally. Interracial relationships continue to be discouraged and are widely considered out of the norm. The Intersection of Race and Gender Relations: A Contemporary Perspective http://www.geocities.com/bhagat266/c/racismsexism050500.html The stubborn persistence of both racism and sexism as dominant worldviews that affect the minorities and women in all walks of their lives might be good reason to explore the unexplored common ground between these two groups. Since there is considerable intersection between race and gender relations almost to the point of overlap, it is in seeking common ground that these two groups can hope to effectively counter the debilitating effects of the ideologies of racism and sexim (Sidanius 1993). These two groups share several attributes like "stereotypes, discrimination and prejudice, and accommodating behaviors" (Kowalewski et al. 1995). Put the two together with the rest of the ism family - classism, ageism, adultism, elitism, heterosexism, and physicalism - and you have a rainbow coalition and a blueprint for the liberation of the various oppressed groups that each of these terms represent. For the purposes of this paper I hope to focus primarily on the twin sisters of the ism family, racism and sexism, and explore the commonalties between the two and derive rays of hope for women and minorities, as political power, in the ultimate, is the game of numbers and alliances and political power can beget economic power. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 04:41 PM
The Epinions.com Online Community has discussed these issues at length. Thought these might be relevant references. The "ISMs" Problem Debate: What After Honesty? http://www.epinions.com/kifm-review-41AB-3063E864-39A6D170-prod5 The ISMs Problem Debate: Does Language Matter http://www.epinions.com/kifm-review-5643-DE73D8E-39887454-prod4 Family Values And The Ongoing Discussion On The ISMs Problem http://www.epinions.com/kifm-review-2474-86A05A3-397CF9C3-prod1 Only online do I no longer get that minority feeling? http://www.epinions.com/kifm-review-3724-3B3098D-3970E75B-prod1 |
| anepalikt | Posted
on 02-Sep-02 03:01 PM
Paramendra: I really enjoyed it, both the content and your style. It was really interesting to read Sitara's posts too. She said at one point that you guys are from different schools of thought. I don't think that is necessarily true. I do agree that economics is a prime motivator in race relations/power etc. However, that does not preclude the argument that social segregation is still used as a tool to perpetuate oppression and access to power, self-determination and full participation in democracy, which is what you are saying right?! I agree SS is kind of like the "final frontier" in breaking down barriers. However, I don't think the solution can be legislated. It will just have to be a slow process of alternative socialization, one that is done both at home (what you teach your kids) as well as in the public (articulating the existence of ss and making people think about choices that are made and how power is maintained through a seemingly informal arrangement, which in fact is not quite that informal or inconsequential). One thing I have found is that all sides, regardless of race/ethnicity/political persuasion - resist the "other" in their own ways (not discounting Rato Bhales argument that since ancient times and in every culture, there seems to be a partiality to "white" as superior. This think such racist aesthetics have been in existence since our Neanderthal days. Who know where it got started? But the issue comes to a head, when we are talking about one "race" or group claims supremacy and uses color or whatever other "marking" to signify or justify that supremacy and resulting oppression - sexism, anti-Semitism and whatever other ism there is.) Race relations like gender and nationality) are ongoing and dynamic. I think it would be a real fallacy to think of "power" other way. Europeans might have colonized, but without natives who aligned them to the colonizers, how could that "power over" have been maintained and perpetuated? Looking at the historical - socio-cultural, political and economic interplays of race is interesting and necessary. That is the only way to deconstruct the myth of racism to its various parts and to be able to respond to it in its entirety. However, personally, in terms of enabling and facilitating social change and being an agent of change, the only way to go about that is to take responsibility for OUR part in perpetuating racism or even sexism - thus social segregation is a hard pill to swallow for many. It is not only by the "whites" or whatever status quo elite (Brahmin or Hindu, say in India and Nepal) we are talking about who use social segregation and maintaining inequalities and inequities are convenient and essential strategies to maintain power used. Those are important tools used by the minority leaders as well. Kind of like the Lallu Prashad Yadav phenomenon in Bihar. One of the fundamental problems I have with a lot to minority leaders in this country is their rhetoric of blame. Which seems to serve those leaders well. That way they maintain a nice voter bank that ensures their next seat in office. Look at Marion Berry for example... he might be a criminal, but DC residents kept voting for him. What about the popularity of the likes of Louise Farah Khan or whatever that chap's name is from the Nation of Islam. The guy is frightening. But he speaks to the fear and anger that blacks as a people feel about their history in this country regardless of whether or not they are Muslim. It is not just people like Pat Buchanan and Jesse Helms, but people like him, and yes Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, who play a major role in keeping the races socially segregated. People like that breed antagonism for the "other", while letting the community get away with their own faults and shortcomings, their culpability in their own situation. A while back, I saw a show on PBS, an interview with a Black academic who talked about this very thing. He spoke of how he was ridiculed for being a "white N*****" because of his arguments about the culpability of the black community in the continued "backwardness" of the black people. It was indeed an interesting point. Terms like "uncle tom" continues to be used with great alacrity whenever a minority seems to be politically or economically conservative. And don't even get me started on the "white liberals" washing out their white privilege guilt and PC rhetoric, which I think is more damaging that the KKK. Anyhooo…………… |
| paramendra | Posted
on 02-Sep-02 10:08 PM
Anepalikt: Your intelligent observations inform, enlighten. Thanks for taking the time. The topic being highly subjective. Your paraphrase of my the basic thrust of what I am saying is to the point. "I agree SS is kind of like the "final frontier" in breaking down barriers. However, I don't think the solution can be legislated." I don't disagree with what you say about alternate socialization. But that "change of heart" would be inadequate. Compare it to sexual harassment. There is legislation to deal with that. And that is about social space. There still are for whites only golf clubs. That ought be illegal, don't you think? Social segregation - just like physical segregation used to - goes both ways. There is this "happy equilibrium" maintained by the oppressor and oppressed groups to keep it in place. This point you have raised is very important, because it suggests if you want to make progress, be prepared to have to counter not only racism, but internalized racism. "...or whatever status quo elite (Brahmin or Hindu, say in India and Nepal) ..." Thanks for bringing this up. Afno ang to bhainsi na dekhne, aru ko ang ko jumra dekhne. We have to criticise the social ills in South Asia at the same time that we might denounce western racism. I mean, can you imagine living in an America that had called itself a Christian country in the constitution? But how many Hindu NRNs believe Nepal ought to be declared a secular state? Your comment on the minority leaders is controversial. But the issue has to be raised. What wold Martin Luther King do today? What kind of speeches would he make? Would he run for office? Which are the effective civil rights leaders of the day? Do please comment on the "white liberals." We might disagree. |
| anepalikt | Posted
on 02-Sep-02 11:10 PM
Paramendra: But how much can be legislated? I think there are far fewer "whites only" establishments now than even a couple of decaded ago. Economic mobility of minorities have had a lot to do with it. I totally agree with you about the role of law in facilitating positive social change and racial equality. Of course "whites only" clubs should be illegal (but I have always been troubled with "black" only beauty pageants too! what if they had white beauty pageants? hmmmmmmm. What's you take on the whole "reverse racism" argument?) But even when the last of those types of racially segregated clubs are made illegal, who people asscoiate with and socialize with, who people trust and marry, will remain. So really, a change of heart, a change in the larger culture is necessary. This will be possible only by achieving some sort of critical mass brought upon, not only by legislation and economic prosperity, but by people's attitudes and relationships with each other. I guess the whole "seperate but equal" works for some, but it seems a real cop out. So does the reliance on too much legislation and government, personally that is. Yes, the miority leader arguement is controversial. :) Martin Luther King was a product of a particular time and socio-cultural and political milieu. Who knows what he would have done?! The age is such that it would have probably villified him and he would have had to whimper into some sort of disgraced retirement because of his extramarital affairs and all the accusations of plagarism. Things have changed a great deal since the 60s at least in terms of race relations and the legal status of black and minoroties in America. The fight for equity and justice can not longer just be faught in the courts and in public spaces. That is not to say, we are livin in a post-race struggle (whatever the equvalent term is like post-feminism). Now I find racism is even more insidious. I think minority leaders conviniently put it aside and capitalize on a rhetoric of us vs them. I guess the relationship of cross race/nation racism and oppression within a particular race/nation or community is kind of like the whole chicken and egg argument. Personally, all that matters is that both exist, are real, and both aid to perpetuate the other. Anyhow, are you familiar with La Raza? I find their strategies to improve the lot of the ever growing latino population to be lot more proactive and far less "politiicized" as African american organizations and leaders seem to get. White liberals.......................... that will have to be another post. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 03-Sep-02 12:06 AM
anepalikt: Reverse racism: If racism is primarily about political and economic power, reverse racism is minuscule compared to anti-non-white racism. But racial prejudice is multi-sided, in terms of people's attitudes. Or among the minorities. Say, the Chinese, and the Mexicans. The Hispanics, the Blacks. "...who people asscoiate with and socialize with, who people trust and marry, will remain. So really, a change of heart, a change in the larger culture is necessary..." True. You can't legislate people into cross-cultural marriages. :-) "..Now I find racism is even more insidious...." True. Glass ceilings, glass walls. Please educate me on La Razza. I just did a quick search. You seem to suggest they have been more productive in terms of covering ground on race relations. Why is that? How is their strategy different? National Council of La Raza LaRaza Newspapers |
| paramendra | Posted
on 03-Sep-02 12:13 AM
On racism: Crosspoint Anti Racism World Conference against Racism: Durban, South Africa Campaign Against Racism and Fascism World Conference Against Racism, Racial Discrimination, ... European Commission against Racism and Intolerance Artists Against Racism World Conference on Racism Racial Profiling in America - Arrest the Racism |