| Sajha.com Archives | |
| Username | Post |
| paramendra | Posted
on 02-Aug-02 09:37 AM
http://www.geocities.com/paramendra/2002/sadbhavana.html |
| Mitra 2 | Posted
on 02-Aug-02 10:32 AM
"Criticism:Why Hindi? Why not Maithili, Bhojpuri? Response:It is not Hindi at the expense of Maithili, Bhojpuri, Awadhi, Tharu, and Marwadi, but in addition to, the latter as primary languages, and Hindi as the link langauge. " What about using 'Nepali' as the link language? I'm for to preserve the local languages. "Criticism:The Sadbhavana is a regional party. Response:According the constitution of Nepal, any political party that bags at least 5% of the votes cast in a national election is a national party. And the Sadbhavana is a national party by that measure, which is the only relevant measure. " Any political party that bags at least 5% of the votes cast in a national election is recognized (national?) party. We know Sadbhavana party is a nationally recognized party. However, any political party that focuses on a particular region and group of people (terai and teraibasi in this case) is NOT a regional party instead of national party? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 03-Aug-02 10:59 PM
Sorry to point, but I have addressed both issues in my original posting. Anyway: (1) The idea is not to "introduce" Hindi as the link language in the Terai, but to recognize the fact that it already is! (2) By your logic, the Congress, even the UML, were Banarasi parties for half a century, almost! 
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| ? | Posted
on 04-Aug-02 04:25 AM
Criticism:"I am a Madhesi, but I don't agree with the Sadbhavana. I don't vote for it." Response:There is racism, and there is internalized racism. There is sexism and there is internalized sexism: most of the girl-as-the-second-class-child prejudices are perpetrated by mothers (women). How come? In the 1930s in the U.S. there were more blacks who supported segregation than those who opposed it. How come? Yeah, right!!! |
| ? | Posted
on 04-Aug-02 04:40 AM
Criticism:If the Sadbhavana is so right in what it says, how come the Congress, the UML and the RPP do so much better than the Sadbhavana in the Terai itself? Response:If the Congress was so right about democracy, how come it stayed nowhere close to power for almost half a century? If democracy is such a great idea, how come it arrived in the U.S. in 1776 but in Nepal only in 1990 for sure? If slavery was so wrong in the U.S., how come it was still intact all the way to the Civil War? If segregation was so wrong, how come it became illegal only 100 years after slavery was abolished? The civil rights movement in the Terai will be an electoral struggle. True. Let's hope it stays electoral and non-violent. Democracy has been on and off in the pages of history from the beginning of human civilization. How did you get concur that it arrived in the US in 1776? About being it a great idea, who knows what will happen the future? You never know. We might shelve back to communism, totalitarianism or even anarchy. Also, In 16th century absolute monarchy was considered the greatest way of operating a country. Civil war was fought on slavery issue, no doubt, but the parties who fought were more concerned about preserving the union and its economic interests than rationality. So, you comparing the terai problems with slavery is at most misinformed. Civil rights??? I think other nepalis are as much in civil struggle as do the terai-basis. I cannot decide why you are making it a communal thing. The world we live in is not perfect. You might seek perfect equality in utopia but this is *Nepal*, people have their moods and prejudices which is inherent in nature, almost impossible to remove. Finally, People will/can get out of adversity at any cost, if they have the courage. The only difference would be the level and the way of their struggle. Only the incompetent and the whiners lag behind. Mostly these are the people who complain about it the loudest if you know what i mean. |
| ananta | Posted
on 04-Aug-02 04:52 AM
Parmendraji, It is pleasant to see that that you come in sajha.com with your varoius postings on different topics like politics, regional problems in nepal etc.,but at the same time it is sad that I can not open your links. I don't know what you are writing in your postings and not in position to comment any further. It will be better to post your stuffs directly than to give their links and at one time you can focuss on only one topics. I want to inform you that geocities.com websites are banned in china and not easy to make access on them. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 04-Aug-02 09:44 AM
".....people have their moods and prejudices which is inherent in nature, almost impossible to remove....." I don't know what to make of your comment except to say, you are saying, hush, hush, don't make a fuss o'er nothing. This is no nothing. The "dark" side in nature. Well, the appeal is not here to change of heart. But change of law and the political landscape. It is about rights. And your comments about democracy being replaced again by other primitive forms of governance are outlandish at best. 
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| NK | Posted
on 04-Aug-02 09:47 AM
Parmendra, Nice photograph! Who did the photo shoot?? Congratulate her! ;) :)))! |
| paramendra | Posted
on 04-Aug-02 09:47 AM
Criticism:"I am also from the Terai." Response:Often the voice of those Nepali Speaking High Caste Males who live in the Terai, especially in the urban centers, and south of the Churia Hills, where King Mahendra transplanted them to dilute the native populations. Well, I am glad you do. I hope that puts you in a better position to understand the plight of the "other" Teraiwasis. Criticism:If the Sadbhavana is so right in what it says, how come the Congress, the UML and the RPP do so much better than the Sadbhavana in the Terai itself? Response:If the Congress was so right about democracy, how come it stayed nowhere close to power for almost half a century? If democracy is such a great idea, how come it arrived in the U.S. in 1776 but in Nepal only in 1990 for sure? If slavery was so wrong in the U.S., how come it was still intact all the way to the Civil War? If segregation was so wrong, how come it became illegal only 100 years after slavery was abolished? The civil rights movement in the Terai will be an electoral struggle. True. Let's hope it stays electoral and non-violent. Criticism:"I am a Madhesi, but I don't agree with the Sadbhavana. I don't vote for it." Response:There is racism, and there is internalized racism. There is sexism and there is internalized sexism: most of the girl-as-the-second-class-child prejudices are perpetrated by mothers (women). How come? In the 1930s in the U.S. there were more blacks who supported segregation than those who opposed it. How come? Criticism:Why do we have to be Madhesis and Sherpas and Newars? Why can't we all just be Nepalis? Response:Why do we have to be Nepalis and Indians? Why can't we just unite and become a Bharat or Aryavart? Or have a South Asian political union? I am all for that. It is just that group identities matter. Being a Nepali is a citizenship issue. It is a legal designation. Being a Madhesi and a Sherpa is a cultural designation. Cultural identity is a positive thing. Not negative. It is interesting that those who perpetrate prejudices do so along those same lines that they then want to not recognize when those aggrieved raise their voice in concern. If the people and groups in power recognized that, as in all Nepalis are alike and are to be treated equally, then those grievances would disappear. Maybe we should start at the top. Criticism:There are 90 parliamentary constituencies in the Terai. Let the voice of the Terai be heard through them. Response:Why not 103? Terai has half the national population, why not half its parliamentary constituencies? Likewise, the Teraiwasis make up less than 10% of the civil service, less than 5% of the police force, and are non-existent in the army. Of the 90, more than half tend not to be madhesis, but Nepali Speaking High Caste Males, thanks to their domination of the three largest parties. Maybe the hillsfolks should become similarly "open-minded" and elect madhesis from Baneshwar, Pyuthan, Pokhara, Humla, Dhankuta. Why not? Plus, electoral politics is the Sadbhavana's stated route: win hearts and votes, win seats in the parliament, form alliances in the parliament, make legislative and constitutional changes to implement the agenda. 
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| paramendra | Posted
on 04-Aug-02 09:47 AM
ananta, are you in China? Well, here goes: Defending The Sadbhavana Paramendra Bhagat July 1, 2002 Criticism:The Sadbhavana is a communal party. Response:The Sadbhavana justly claims the Teraiwasis, who compose 50% of the national population, and the Janajatis, who compose 30% of the national population, have been denied their rights for centuries. But that just voice is labelled communal. It is prejudice and discrimination that are communal, not the voice raised against those tendencies. Criticism:The Sadbhavana is a regional party. Response:According the constitution of Nepal, any political party that bags at least 5% of the votes cast in a national election is a national party. And the Sadbhavana is a national party by that measure, which is the only relevant measure. Criticism:The Sadbhavana tilts towards India. Response:The Sadbhavana is a Nepalese party that recognizes the geo-political importance of India to a country like Nepal. Anything else would be suicidal. Nepal's land-lockedness means any ambitions toward Nepal's future prosperity will have to take India into account. Not to mention the special relationships between the common peoples in both countries, most of which have nothing to do with politics. Criticism:The Sadbhavana will never come to power, so why bother? Response:The Sadbhavana has already come to power about three times, as part of coalition governments, even when at one point two of its four MPs had split to form the Nepal Samajwadi Janata Dal - both factions participated in rival governments. In the future, imagine a scenario where the Congress is vertically split, and each of those factions garner about 30 seats each, the UML bags about 90 seats, and the RPP bags about 25 seats, and the Sadbhavana comes up with a sweep of about 20 seats. Then one can see the Sadbhavana actually making gains on its now rather unpopular political demands. On the language issue, the citizenship issue, the federal government issue, the national dress issue. Don't count it out. The Congress and the UML both have over 50 years of history behind them. The Sadbhavana is only a decade old. Give it some time, a few election cycles. Criticism:Why does the Sadbhavana adopt an Indian language, Hindi? Response:Hindi is as much an Indian language as Nepali. Hindi is spoken in India, but then so is Nepali. It is just so that Hindi happens to be the de facto link language among the Maithili, Bhojpuri, Awadhi, Tharu, and Nepali speakers of the Terai region. And Hindi is also spoken as a first language by many Teraiwasis, just like Maithili and Bhojpuri. Criticism:Why Hindi? Why not Maithili, Bhojpuri? Response:It is not Hindi at the expense of Maithili, Bhojpuri, Awadhi, Tharu, and Marwadi, but in addition to, the latter as primary languages, and Hindi as the link langauge. Criticism:With high caste folks like Gajendra Narayan Singh and Hridayesh Tripathy in leadership positions, does not the Sadbhavana perpetuate the caste politics in the Terai? Response:Gajendra Narayan Singh is deceased. And his contributions to Nepal, the Terai and the Sadbhavana have to be lauded. Tripathy is a talented politico, whatever his background might be. And the party is now presided over by Badri Mandal, who hails from one of the "backward" castes. Criticism:The Teraiwasis are no under dogs. Look at the poor folks in the remote hill and mountain districts. Response:The wealth in the Terai is over-stated. Don't just look at the urban areas. Go to the hinterland. Go to the remote villages. But then also look at the wealth in the hill urban centers, especially that of the Kathmandu elite. The poor in the remote hill and mountain districts need attention, so do the Teraiwasis. Both those groups have genuine grievances. Criticism:There are other more important issues than what Sadbhavana is known for. Response:I agree. My personal priority list is listed here: A Vision For Nepal. It is not like the Sadbhavana does not talk about the economy, it does. It is more like the Congress, the UML, and the RPP don't talk the issues Sadbhavana raises. Plus, it is a young party. It will transform itself as it expands. On the other hand, I think the Congress, the UML and the RPP are all bankrupt when it comes to fresh ideas. Or we would not have had a sham democracy for a decade now. (..cntd) 
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| paramendra | Posted
on 04-Aug-02 09:54 AM
Thanks. I wish more contributors/participants posted photographs. Or even real names! Will make the discussions more real. 
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| ??! | Posted
on 04-Aug-02 10:21 AM
Not necessary to post photo attached to each response though.... I think one photograph in the thread is sufficient to identify... |
| NK | Posted
on 04-Aug-02 10:28 AM
An ode to Me I am on a trip If you don't like just skip I just talked to Narcisuss and do you know what he says? "You posess a mirror don't need a pond to drown!" [as for myself, too much tea too early in the morning] |
| The Grocer's Wife | Posted
on 04-Aug-02 10:54 AM
NK rocks :-) Hope the message will be received by the intended recipient. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 04-Aug-02 11:22 AM
A few participants are trying to suggest I am being an exhibitionist: NK actually made the effort to compose a poem. No, I am not. I am just trying to use the web as a medium for a conversation, and am trying to make it as "real" as possible. My real name, with a face. You have the option to visit my personal website and get to know me better, if you want to. A chiya pasal environment. I wish more people did what I am doing, that way we will get to know the participants better, and we would miss less our geographical distances. If you were to meet me in person, would it bother you that you are actually looking at my person! It is of interest to me that your posting is here, the Sadbhavana thread. An attempt to sideline the "real" issue!? |
| NK | Posted
on 04-Aug-02 05:30 PM
>An attempt to sideline the "real" issue!? < Are we being paranoid? Is everybody after me? Anyway Paremendra with a really neat photo, come again? what is the "real" issue here? Ok just kidding. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 04-Aug-02 06:28 PM
Nepe, my comments to your comments were made in jest. I was just joining your light conversation. No offense. I hope we continue with the substance. I am particularly eager to talk about a possible reorganization of the administrative structures, for a possible federal form of government. |
| nepe | Posted
on 04-Aug-02 07:21 PM
Paramendraji, you must be addressing NK, not Nepe. Anyway, again, I did not come to talk about the *real issues*, but just to warn you that there is going to be a lot and lot of *light conversation* in sajha. You just got a first taste of it from NK. So be equipped with appropriate arms and ammunitions if you are planning to stay here for long. :-) On the same note, NK, you don’t stop amaze us with your poetic talent. Paramendraji, keep up the good discussion. Will comment when I am able to take up serious issues. And No, you do not know me personally. But I am glad I have read you in the past too. A warm welcome to Sajha on my own behalf and on other fellow Sajhaites too. |
| surya | Posted
on 05-Aug-02 10:52 PM
Why do we have to have Nepalis and Indians? Because Nepal and India are two different countries! Thank goodness! It is interstting to hear you say "Why can't we just unite and become a Bharat or Aryavart? Or have a South Asian political union? " Bharat? Aryavart? Tell me there is no inherent cultural, political and linguistic baggage/bias attached to those two terms! These are the very type of statements that make me queasy whenever I hear someone "defend" the Sadvawana party. I am all for cultural identities and excercising regional political power to facilitate positioning teraivasis positively in the Nepali national policital arena. I am even for letting Hindi remain the lingua franca of the teraivasis, but "Aryavarta"! Forget it. Talking about the need to recognize cultural, political and socio economic realities of marginalized groups and negotiating those issues within the democratic milieu of the country is not only fine, but essential. However, talking about a larger "South Asian Union" in that same breath makes me wonder whether you understand the rather complex history between Nepal and India and the issues of hegemony and cultural dominance the Hindu/hindustani centric politics of Indian mainstream national identity and agenda. |
| Paramendra Bhagat | Posted
on 06-Aug-02 10:51 AM
Nepe, you are right. I did confuse the two names NK and nepe. My bad. As for the lighter side of conversation, I am all for it, so keep coming! And I look forward to your comments on the not so light side! |
| paramendra | Posted
on 06-Aug-02 10:55 AM
surya, you misunderstand the irony behind my use of terms "Bharat" and "Aryavarta." Actually your comment supports the point I am trying to make. My response is to those who come up saying "Why can't we all be just Nepalis? Why all the regional outfits, and ethnic demarcations?" "Talking about the need to recognize cultural, political and socio economic realities of marginalized groups and negotiating those issues within the democratic milieu of the country is not only fine, but essential." Thank you. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 07-Aug-02 06:59 PM
Thanks NK. For liking that photo. Some did not! And, yeah, the photo was taken by somene from your gender (I just learned your first name), and perhaps hence! |
| paramendra | Posted
on 25-Aug-02 12:46 PM
A hung parliament: The Sadbhavana's best bet Deuba aims to bag 85 seats http://www.yomari.com/p-review/2002/08/22082002/deu.html |
| czar | Posted
on 25-Aug-02 02:10 PM
Surya, Erudite commentary. Bravo! Parmendra, Whats with the 'arya...' crap ? Proponent of elitism? This, while seemingly arguing for the recognition of politically marginalized groups and integration into the mainstream. All in the same breath ? Considered regional dynamics, as pointed out by Surya ? Ever focused beyond the village/sadarmukaam level? Lamentable naivette, at best. I am certain you are going to mount the flimsy defense that I misunderstood you. BS. You're a prime candidate for 'Critical Analysis 101.' If you can't afford it, I am certain the weary victims of your ceaseless blather will be delighted to set up a fund for you. Server hard drive space is a finite quantity, give that thought to it before you start hammering away on your keyboard. Save your oration for the 'chyaa pasal' crowd you pine for. NK's poem sailed right over your head, but I'll spell it out for you : If someone calls you a fool, don't open your mouth and remove all the doubt. I rest my case. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 25-Aug-02 03:27 PM
Czar: Yours is a negative personal comment that does not respect your volunteered "opinion" that server space is a limited quantity. As for the topic at hand, what are you saying, besides expressing hostility towards the Sadbhavana? Are there parts of its platform you disagree with? If so, spell it out. And lets talk issues. |
| Jay | Posted
on 25-Aug-02 03:54 PM
Bhaiya Paramendra, Kati politics ko matrai kura gareko???? Eso hasi majak thata pani garnu paryo!!! Btw, I like idea of economic integration with India just like EU. We are geographically, economically and militarily or any way no match to India. India is big country. I dont like it but we have to live at the mercy of India. This is the truth a very grim truth. I know, by expressing this view, people make no haste calling me 'dalaal of India'. But so be it. Mero real nau Jay haina kyra.... :-) I don't think India wants Nepal to be a part of it's territory. Making Nepal her own territory means making Nepal her own part her own brother! Why India wants to accord Nepal a status of brotherhood when now India could treat Nepal as her NOKAR. India is getting whatever India wants from Nepal. Why it has any need to annex it? Nokar banauna pauda paudai kasle bhai banaucha ra adha angsa dincha? |
| sameer | Posted
on 25-Aug-02 09:48 PM
One way to give more voice to minorities is to break the domination of a single-party mentality. A proportioonal representation system (aan article was published in Kathmandu Post about this method) may work for Nepal too. That way, the share of the seats will also be based on the party votes as well. Currently, with 35% or so popular votes the NC enjoys more than 50 % of the seats. This type of constitutional approach will benefit many other views.... |
| orion | Posted
on 26-Aug-02 01:28 PM
Hey Paramendra jee, I agree with many of the things you say. I think we need to re-define what being a Nepali is because Nepali nationalism today is really out of tune with the times. I believe that it is important for all Nepalese born or living in Nepal to feel a sense of belonging to the country and it is tragic that our society and successive governments have pusposefully isolated several ethnic communities including Madesis, Janajatis, Tharus etc by introducing national policies that barley conceal a sense of deep-rooted and outdated prejudice. About the main topic itself, what I think went wrong with the Sadhvawana,is that it failed to appeal to those very people that it claimed to stand up for. The appeal base was limited and the party failed to expand inspite of having some very good issues in its chest. The Nepali Congress got more Madesi votes than the Sadhvawana in most parts of the Terai, for several reasons, one of which being it was simply better placed organizationally in more places than the Sadhvawana was. Based on my conversations with many people in Nepal about caste and development, it seems a lot of people, both in the hills or the terai see their problems as economic problems and not really political or social. There is seems to be increased awareness after the restoration about social and ethnic issues, but voting intent to me seems to be driven largely by economics ( in some cases caste economics , but economics none the less). Also, the two mainsteram national parties - NC and UML - seem to have pretty much convinced Madesi voters that their future lies in joining the mainstream rather than moving towards the margins. Feel free to disagree with me on this one, and I know you probably will, but the NC and UML (especially the former) have succeded, at the cost of the Sadhvawana and like minded parties, to turn the the main issues of the terai into an economic and political one with less and less of an ethnic flavor. The other problem with the Sadhvawana was its somewhat elitist composition and choice of issues - its apparent domination by Madesi Bramhins many say provided a cakewalk for Yadav and other "backward" caste candidates belonging to other parties in some constituencies the Terai. Plus, to go back to the previous point, the average Madesi in Janakpur or Siraha really cared more about getting better food to eat than about reservation in the civil service. The issues of reservations that the Sadhvawana leaders raised, while well founded and necessary to some extent for Nepal, failed to click with the average Madesi voter who cared more about the price of atta than about joining the Royal Nepali Army as part of a quota. I almost get the sense that most Madesi voters felt that getting the price of flour to go down by a rupee was a task that the NC or UML were better suited to do than the Sadhvawana. I am a well wisher of the social justice movement and yearn to see the day when all communities in Nepal will live with the dignity they want and deserve. Legislation, education and awareness are the key to success in any movement for social justice. I think we need increased social spending on education, health and small farming at the local and national levels accompanied by legislation ( and it's enforcement) that guarantees eqaul access to those recources. I think having reservations or affirmative action in a controlled manner in the civil service with time limits will also help empower and better integrate Madesis and other minoroties into the national mainstream. Alas, I do not think a regional outfit ( which I think the Sadhvawa was in spite of the semantic and legal arguments in some previous postings) will be able to achieve this. It is only a party with national appeal that I think can bring about meaningful change in Nepal as it pertains to ethnic issues. I hope the next genaration of social justice champions will grow within the more broad-based parties and bring about effective and meaningful social change in Nepal. Phew ... that was a long posting .... thanks for reading and do reply with your comments, questions or thoghts. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 26-Aug-02 06:44 PM
Sameer: I feel you have thrown in a most interesting idea. An idea I have not before thought of in the Nepalese context. I think it is a great idea, especially for the upper house. If not for both. Thanks for your postive comment. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 26-Aug-02 07:18 PM
Orion: You largely disagree with the specifics of the position I take at the launch of this thread, but I must say your comment is among the most enlightened I have read here. Your criticism is informed. And gives plenty of room for issue-based dialogue. I look forward to such. Some people have resorted to name-calling in response. Some have used more "decent" words but only to express and stand by their ethnic prejudices. Your posting is different. The term "Nepali" has to be more inclusive than it is now. True. Thanks. Maybe it is dialogue like this that will help us move towards that new definition. "..it failed to appeal to those very people that it claimed to stand up for..." Part of it is organizational strength, as you point out. Part of it is an early leadership hogging by the high casters. Part of it is its manifesto so far has failed to make a serious attempt to try to become a national party with a presence in more than 16 districts. But then where was Congress in 1950? Or in 1970? Poverty is Nepal's number one, number two, number three issue. That has been my position all along. But social justice has to happen at the same time. For economic reasons. A balance has to be struck. You can't ask the Madhesis and the Janajatis to wait until the country becomes rich. That is just a sophisticated version of prejudice. |
| sameer | Posted
on 26-Aug-02 07:42 PM
Paramendra: Read the articles written by Bohara in Nepali Times (June 13? Devolution, not revolution) that talks about the elected regional governments. His article in the Kathmandu Post offers the mechanism of a (mixed) porportional representation system and its benefit for a larger section of our minority population: Making a Case for a Referendum (Kathmandu Post, on Friday about 2/3 weeks ago). The NC had adopted his idea of the regional governments (federalism-type system). |
| paramendra | Posted
on 26-Aug-02 07:46 PM
Sameer: Will you please post web addresses of the articles you mention? Thanks. |
| Surya G | Posted
on 26-Aug-02 09:04 PM
You guys have enough discussion on the subject. I haven't read most of those. I disagree with a number of Sadbhavana (Is is really 'sadbhavana' ?) views. Right now, my two cent opinion is regarding 'HINDI' ? Why Hindi ? Less than 1% of Nepalese people speak Hindi as their mother tongue. Cannot Nepali be a lingua franca for people speaking Maithili and Bhojpuri ? Is Maithili a language farther (more dissimilar) from Nepali than from Hindi ? If Nepali can be a lingua franca for people speaking Tibeto Burmese languages such as Newari, Tamang, Rai, Limbu, why it cannot be for people speaking its own Indo-European brother languages Maithili, Bhojpuri, Awadhi. And what do you think about sizable number of people speaking Rajbanshi (which is very close to Bengali), Tharu (Morangiya, a very different language) in Terai ? Terai is much bigger of a land than the land between Koshi and Bagmati ? What about people of and west of Nepalgunj who speak a very different dialect of Nepali which even we cannot understand. Moreover, if Hindi becomes lingua franca for people in terai, they will have to learn four languages - their mother tongue, Hindi, Nepali, and of course English. Can any of Sadbhavana leader dream of being a national leader without knowing Nepali ? Do you think some section officer from Terai should speak in Hindi and everybody is expected to follow him in Kathmandu ? Why these Sadbhavana leaders speak in Hindi even though they know Nepali and their mother tongue is Hindi. We know that language difference was the only issue which caused Pakistan-Bangladesh partition. Do we want the same thing to happen 25 years from now in Nepal ? Even for little betterment of our economy we should try to minimise Hindi (& Indian)influence in our country. For example, Hindi movies ... Even if a little more of our people start watching more Nepali movies, it is good for our film industry. There may be a lot of other factors affecting that. But making lingua franca hindi can only do worse in that effect. I am not against HINDI language. How can a language itself be bad ? As a matter of fact, I think it is a sweet language. But, making it lingua franca in Nepal, I will have to think twice. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 26-Aug-02 09:58 PM
Surya G: You have touched upon what is perhaps the Sadbhavana's most controversial stand, that Hindi be granted the same status as Nepali in Nepal, as a lingua franca for the Terai peoples. This is one hot stone to be holding. If I were a Sadbhavana leader - I say this as a supporter of the party and as a proud Madhesi - I would put the issue on a back burner for a little while for several reasons. (1) The Sadbhavana ought to work to make inroads organizationally into the hills and mountains districts. Get the votes, win the seats, if you are serious. And Hindi gets in the way for the short term. (2) The issue is largely cultural. Hindi already is the lingua franca in the Terai. That is the social reality. The Congress, UML and RPP leaders speak Hindi when addressing mass meetings in the Terai. Why? Because they know that fact about Hindi. (3) Prioritize. Prioritize. Prioritize. There are other issues the Sadbhavana raises that it ought to work on first. For example, this election cycle, it is well-positioned to make inroads with the federal form of governance issue. Well, it ought to focus on that for now. Success on that front will bring electoral benefits for the party which it can cash for further progress on other issues. (4) I am more into the Tri-Lingual Education Policy outlined at http://www.geocities.com/paramendra/2002/nepal.html |
| sameer | Posted
on 26-Aug-02 09:58 PM
Paramendra: Proportional representation argument: http://www.kantipuronline.com/archive/kpost/2002-8-7/kp_editorial.htm#Making%20a%20case%20for%20a%20referendum Regional government argument (federal type devolutionary set-up)http://www.kantipuronline.com/archive/kpost/2002-6-4/kp_editorial.htm |
| sameer | Posted
on 26-Aug-02 10:01 PM
Paramendra (here it is again) Proportional representation: http://www.kantipuronline.com/archive/kpost/2002-8-7/kp_editorial.htm#Making%20a%20case%20for%20a%20referendum regional gvt: http://www.kantipuronline.com/archive/kpost/2002-6-4/kp_editorial.htm |
| Surya G | Posted
on 26-Aug-02 10:52 PM
Parmendra, (1) Good luck to Sadbhavana for winning more seats. (2) Hindi is a lingua franca in the entire Terai (No, not in Jhapa, Morang, Sunsari, and lots of other districts)!!! Whereever it is if it is, I think most of it is due to Bihari and UPite immigrants in Nepal. Even in Kathmandu, locals speak broken hindi with Indian workers. Anyway, if it is lingua franca even among Nepali Madhesees, let it be. If somebody as a great visionary as King Mahendra will come to power in Nepal, we may be able to influence Nepali in Terai in years to come. Why to influence Nepali without giving any pressure to non-Nepali speakers ? I have already outlined few points in my last post. My only concern is it should not get an official language status as sadbhavana party demands. Let Nepali be a symbol of unity of our country. You are talking about these 'great' leaders !!! More than few times, I have heard (in Biratnagar) tharu, and maithil leaders speaking in their language and it being translated into Nepali by a person standing besides. We could easily increase such practice till we can educate most of Terai making them study Nepali as their second language. (3) Good luck with Federal Governance issue as well. I am not discussing about that issue anyway. (4) I am also for Trilingual education policy. Only thing is Nepali as a second language should be compulsory if it is not the first language. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Aug-02 09:27 AM
Thanks Sameer. I read the two articles. This is what I have to say: Leave the VDCs as they are, the districts as they are, but do away with the "development regions," one of King Birendra's ludicrously failed ideas. Instead, five states: Eastern Hills, Western Hills, Eastern Terai, Western Terai, Kathmandu Valley. Within the states, parliamentary constituencies based on equal population disregarding the district boundaries. For the upper house, a national political party gets seats proportional to the votes it garnered. No royal appointees. Call the army the National Army, not the Royal Army. Retain Defense and Foreign Policy with the center, give most of the rest to the states. So you end up with the central government, the five state legilslatures, the district and local (village/town) governments. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Aug-02 09:32 AM
Surya G: Your two issues: (1) Hindi, and (2) Tri-Lingial Policy Hindi I have always maintained that the Sadbhavana's stand on Hindi is rather vague. Hindi is already the link language in the Terai. You can't make or unmake that. What would "recognition" do to that reality? Tri-Lingual Policy http://www.geocities.com/paramendra/2002/nepal.html (5) Participate in and lead the struggle waged by the madhesi and the janajati communities to attain equality and dignity. A tri-lingual education policy, so that the first language of a child is one of their subjects at school all the way through 12 years of high school, Nepali as the second language, for those who have it as their first language, any other language spoken in Nepal as their second language, and English as the third language. Other than that, the private schools may teach other subjects in English if they might so wish, and the public schools may do the same in Nepali. For higher education, each instition makes its own decision for the language of instruction. This will result in some local governments operating on a bi-lingual basis. For example, Kathmandu, Newari and Nepali. Janakpur, Maithili and Nepali. Birgunj, Bhojpuri and Nepali. This above basically takes care of the Hindi issue, I think. What do you have to say about this? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Aug-02 09:38 AM
Sameer: I would be interested to know how you feel about the specifics of Bohara's articles. Thanks. |
| sameer | Posted
on 27-Aug-02 04:58 PM
Bohara's angle is not just political and ethnical but also economic. Decentralized regional governments and a proportional rep will be a good start. Many monorities whould like these proposals. The district level stuff may be a overkill. The important thing about the dev region based elected gvt argument is that it is based on the resources: mining, water resources, herbs, and spices, coffee, forest, and low land agric. The regional assemblies can be based on the population density. No problem. A north AND south division will ensue a fight over the same water resourses. In Nepal, the water will paly an important and you don't want the hill and terai people fighting over the same water resources. After all, it is flowing from north to the south. It is happening in the US and India too. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Aug-02 06:09 PM
Sameer: For that you will have Inter-State Commerce. The development regions have to go. |
| sameer | Posted
on 27-Aug-02 08:50 PM
paramendra: A country with 54 or 100 languages and dozen and dozen of numerous ethnic groups scattered all over the country, and lumping along the line of 2 mountain people and 2 terai people? Then what the 5th one Newar people? Good luck! Bohara's thinking is along the line of rich resource mobilization approach...The Terai will get immense benefit from the mining, forest, tourism, and the mountain people benefit from the agr. land. And the both can benefit from the hydro power...it is a win-win situation...at least that's what Bohara argues. Personally, I don't care. Anything is better than the current one, but not to the point of creating little Sikkims. Don't get me wrong, but the politics is dirty. Even if the terai block is created, I hope we don't end up with a lot of cumminial violence with pahari/madhesi fightings as in India: Hindu-Muslim. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 27-Aug-02 09:12 PM
Sameer: I have appreciated your positive contributions to this thread. Thanks. On this particular issue, it appears, we will just have to agree to disagree. Why do away with the five development regions and come up with the five states? (1) Makes economic sense. Imagine someone from Solukhumbu coming down to Birtanagar because that is the state capital. Does not make sense. (2) The cultural groups. Some sort of common ground. (3) Inter-State Commerce will make sure the economic benefits do not go away. The states benefit from each other. (4) The federal government is not about to go away. |
| sameer | Posted
on 27-Aug-02 11:45 PM
Paramendra: I appreciate your comments too. Fisrt, about coming down to Biratnagar from Solukhumbu, well we just have to do a better job in delegating power in various districts and bulid roads. And, it is better than coming to Kathmandu. In America too, it took months to cross the frontiers. I myself trekked for three days (east-west) and I still was in Manang. Yes, my friends trekked for 12 days in the hils and they were still in the interior of Lumbini zone. Things are changing however. it will take weeks to cross four mountous districts. East -west movement is much harder than the north-south. The idea of opening a pandora's box is not what Bohara suggests. He argues for a compromise amidst numerous competing forces and troubles: Maoists, royalist, ethnicists, and there are who argue for 35 zones but still with the central authority and there are those who don't want any devolution, and afraid that the country will be disintegrated, and there are those who like to revive 14 zones. A best way is to conduct a referendum, as he suggests in his article. Federal stuff may not go away, but ethnically based federal stuff is a long-way from reality. We cannot afford 54 states. And, lumping of all mountain people as one will not work. Everyone would want their own, and we have at least 16 such claims. Further, there is a strong force that does not want any federal talk, They are too worried about little Sikkims (I personally don't think so). Compromise: the proportional representation and regional gvts a good package. |
| orion | Posted
on 28-Aug-02 08:23 AM
Paramendra - Yes, the one specific premise where I disagree with you is that the Sadhvawana party is capable of bringing about the changes that you talk about. I am with you on the issues, at least most of them, but I do think that for a belief or message to be translated into policy, the vehicle often makes a big difference and for all of the reasons mentioned in my previous posting ( and some more below) I find it very difficult to see the Sadbhawana party as that vehicle for change. I say this for a couple of reasons - firstly the party has had a very polarizing affect on polity - the vast majority of Bhojpuri, Maithali, Hindi speakers in the Terai are either Congress, UML or RPP voters ( in that order). The party has totally alienated Nepali speaking populations ( including Janajatis) in the Terai by irresponsible statements of its leaders like threatening to "redraw" the map of Nepal . This is just one example that come to my mind right off but the Sadbhawana has, it seems almost deliberately , antagonized various non-madesi sections of Nepali society for short-term political gain and now is paying the long term price for it. Secondly, history in Nepal is testimony to the fact that ideologies and beliefs with a narrow focus rarely get translated into government policy. I am sure you will agree that it is probably with this realization that the Sadhbhawana has tried to include Janajatis under its umbrella and I say failed at the attempt. Also, with all due respect, I think it is a little far fetched to compare the NC in the 70s with the Sadbawana of today. The biggest difference is the NC was a much more broad-based party throughout its history than what the Sadhbhawana has ever been. The policies of that party were targeted towards a much wider section of society than most of the policies that people associate with the Sadvawana. Further, the NC has by and large been a very inclusive party through most of its history– so much so that many people think the main reason it is still in power in spite of mediocre governance is its ability to include and include. ( Of course there are those who argue that inclusion is the precise reason for NC inability to provide good governance) “Poverty is Nepal's number one, number two, number three issue. That has been my position all along. But social justice has to happen at the same time. For economic reasons. A balance has to be struck. You can't ask the Madhesis and the Janajatis to wait until the country becomes rich. That is just a sophisticated version of prejudice” Agree. I hope you are not insinuating that I am prejudiced – because I am not and quite frankly don’t really care if you think I am I am with you on the issue of social justice which includes support for ethnic aspirations, among other things. Based on your write-ups, it seems our heads are in the same place as to the end state – we differ on the means of getting there. We even agree on the balance – social justice and economic change are meaningless without each other and need to go hand in hand. But, as I said in the beginning, I think it is unrealistic to think that the Sadbhawana will be the instrument for these changes. Realistically, I think what will happen is over a period of several years, one or more of the mainstream parties will incorporate social justice issues into their agenda ( the NC already tried to pass a citizenship bill, the UML has opened up much more, although not as much I would like to see, to ethnic issues). In a nutshell, social justice and economic development can be brought about in Nepal only by a more broad based political movement. The Sadhvawana has tried to be more broad based and failed so this agenda will have to be picked up by the mainstream parties, internalized, modified, appropriated and implemented. I am will willing to bet you dinner at a restaurant of your choice in 10 years that this is the trend that Nepali politics will follow with respect to social justice and ethnic aspirations (unless the King or Maoists take over in which case the dynamics and politics of social justice will change but the offer of dinner will still stand :) ) |
| paramendra | Posted
on 28-Aug-02 08:57 AM
Sameer: I think we have come to a point where we agree to disagree. For both of us seem to be pretty convinced with our respective positions. But that does not mean this dialogue has to end. What about having more than 5 states/divisions? What about having seven instead? Three in the Terai, three in the hills/mountains, and Kathmandu Valley. Or maybe even reorganizing the district boundaries? The zones/development regions are King Birendra's defunct ideas. They have to go. Those are unnatural boundaries. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 28-Aug-02 09:04 AM
Orion: You are for social justice. It is just that the Sadbhavana, you think, is too loud. That makes me doubt your commitment to social justice. I mean, can you imagine a Congress, a UML, or a RPP that has a Teraiwasi for party president, whose central committee is 50% Madhesi? Can you imagine a Madhesi prime minister? Can you imagine a republican Nepal with a Madhesi president? Probably not. Hence your feelings about the Sadbhavana, perhaps. If you can imagine political parties run by Pahadis spreading organizationally in the Terai, why can't you imagine a party started by a few Madhesis spreading out in the hills and mountains? I would be happy if the Congress were to make the entire Sadbhavana platform their own. But that is not about to happen. They throw a little loot the Terai way here and now just to make sure people don't get too impatient. They fear the Sadbhavana might grow too big. The key issue are the specific legal/legislative details that the Terai needs. Which party(ies) come up with those does not really matter. But I doubt seriously the Congress, the UML and the RPP even "get it." Let alone rally for it. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 28-Aug-02 09:09 AM
Orion: And, oh, by the way, that dinner offer. I will take it with or without the debate! I am sure we can find smaller excuses to do such a thing. The invitation is accepted, and we will go dutch, never mind. We could go out for a cup of coffee anytime. It is just that chances are we are not in the same state/continent. At the other online community I am part of - http://www.epinions.com - people do that. They will meet online. And some of them go meet offline. They go out. A group in New York did it. And they came back online and wrote about it. It would be nice to be able to meet you. |
| orion | Posted
on 28-Aug-02 10:05 AM
I am only being realistic here and my commitment to social justice is as strong if not stronger than yours. And you, my friend, are being a little too presumptuous. Of course, I would love to see a Madesi PM (or better still a President!). I have said on this and other forums, that it is high time we had a Madesi or Janajati PM. While a Janajati or Madesi PM will not necessarily mean instant social justice for all, it will definitely be a landmark in the fight for social justice. Lets face it, the Sadhvawana party is dead. Even when Gajju babu was alive, the whole movement suffered a setback when Hridesh Tripathi and friends went astray and the party has never really recovered since then. I doubt anyone can unify the Sadhvawana crowd anytime soon. Plus with the NC stealing its platform in the terai, the future of the Sadhbhawana party is bleak. The Sadhbhawana may grab a few seats here and there if the NC goes to the polls divided. That is about the only hope for the party. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If you can imagine political parties run by Pahadis spreading organizationally in the Terai, why can't you imagine a party started by a few Madhesis spreading out in the hills and mountains? " ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because of the ground realities of Nepalese politics. The Pahadi/Madesi dichotomy does not exist in Nepalese politics to the extent you profess in spite of several attempts by the Sadhbhawana to inject it. There have been some Madesi leaders in the main parties, although not enough, but I do see this trend changing. As the demographics of Nepal keep changing with population continuing to concentrate in the Terai, it will become imperative for all national parties to reach out to the Bhojpuri, Maithali, Hindi speaking Nepalese living in the Terai by raising issues that are near and dear to people of this community. I also see the number of Madesi candidates increasing, and eventually rising up the leadership chain. As more and more Madesis attain higher education and become aware of their ethnic aspirations, I see them having a greater impact on the composition of bodies like the central committees of parties that you talk about. But no I do not see the central committees of all parties being 50% Madesi overnight - there is an element of time to this process and ignoring this element is choosing to bury your head in the sand when reality is not acceptable. I think you are aware of this reality as much as I am or any other student of politics is. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I would be happy if the Congress were to make the entire Sadbhavana platform their own. But that is not about to happen. They throw a little loot the Terai way here and now just to make sure people don't get too impatient. " "But I doubt seriously the Congress, the UML and the RPP even "get it." Let alone rally for it." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ As I said in previously, the NC, UML and RPP will not espouse the Sadhbhawana platform exactly the way it is. Of course they will adjust it, to make it more palatable to the rest of the population. The NC has already incorporated many Sadhvawana issues into its platform and the UML will be forced to do so, if it want to compete with the NC in the Terai. No they wont do it Sadhbhawana style - with rallies and posters - it will be mainly through legislation and public policy. Bottom line, the Sadbhawana party is over. Get over it. A person of your caliber will be able to make and influence social justice policy to a great extent if you are able to convince the mainstream parties to espouse your cause. The Sadhvawana party has failed the social justice movement in Nepal and realistically the best interests of this movement lie in changing the mindset and policies of the mainstream parties. |
| orion | Posted
on 28-Aug-02 10:06 AM
Same here ... inspite of our differences, I think we have a lot of similarities. I take my cofee with cream and no sugar. You? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 28-Aug-02 10:10 AM
".... I take my cofee with cream and no sugar. You? ..." Don't all South Asians? :-) |
| paramendra | Posted
on 28-Aug-02 10:26 AM
Orion: With all due respect, just like with Sameer, I think we might have reached a point where we will just have to agree to disagree. Although my father ran for parliament on the Sadbhavana ticket in Mahottari 3 in 1991, and I was a Vice General Secreatary of the Nepal Samajwadi Janata Dal during the 1994-1996 period ("when Hridesh Tripathi and friends went astray"), currently I am not a Sadbhavana person for reasons of geography: I am in North America. It is just that I think the Sadbhavana's best days are ahead. You think they are behind it. Hridayesh Tripathy is my favorite Nepali politician. The guy became a parliamentarian at at the "ripe" age of 31, and got himself elected Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committe of the Pratinidhi Sabha, the largest committe with 31 MPs on it, when Sadbhavana had only 4 MPs in the Pratinidhi Sabha (Vajpayee held the same chair in India at the time). He is talented, and he has not even begun. I was witness to the split. And I sided with Tripathy. Why? Because Tripathy's anti-corruption work was a chance for the Sadbhavana's to expand its platform, to try and become truly national. (1) Anti-Terai-Prejudice, Anti-Janajati-Prejudice. (2) Anti-Corruption. It was a major mistake on Gajendra Narayan Singh's part to expel Tripathy. But they came back together in late 1996, early 1997. The whole CIAA raids in news .... Tripathy was a major contributor to the legislation that gave the CIAA its teeth. "...convince the mainstream parties to espouse your cause..." You are proposing a Raja-Raiti relationship between the Madhesis and the major parties. |
| orion | Posted
on 28-Aug-02 10:49 AM
"You are proposing a Raja-Raiti relationship between the Madhesis and the major parties." Pardon my ignorance about the meaning of that characterization - I am assuming it to be some kind of King - subject comparison. If that is true, then that is not how I think of what I believe. I believe that all people of Nepal, with a special focus on Janajatis and Madesis because of historical wrongs, need to live in dignity in a society that practices freedom and equality. The Madesis community is economcially and socially disadvantaged in many ways but the disadvantages of the Tharus and Chepangs are as worse if not worst than those of the Madesi community. Public policy in Nepal needs to be based on this reality. Unfortunately, policy makers in Nepal have chosen to stay away from this issue and I believe meaningful change can only come about when people who believe in social justice are able to make / influence public policy. I believe the best way to do this is to join the mainstream and it seems you believe the way to do this is to bring about change from outside the mainstream. Maybe I am the insider and you are the outsider. Or maybe I am the realist and you are the idealist ? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 28-Aug-02 10:59 AM
Orion: Why do the leaders from the so-called mainstream political parties need convincing? If they care about all Nepalese, why don't they "get it?" What I hear you say is, they retain the power, and the Madhesis and the Janajatis please them to get what is supposed to be their right. I dislike that approach. I think the Madhesis and the Janajatis themselves should come to power. On the other hand, you seem to be making the point that protest is not enough. Ultimately the goal has to be to change policy. And I feel you offer some valid tactics to that effect. And, no, I don't think the Madhesis are at the bottom of the ladder. I agree with you on that. |
| orion | Posted
on 28-Aug-02 05:33 PM
"Why do the leaders from the so-called mainstream political parties need convincing? If they care about all Nepalese, why don't they "get it?" I think many of them do get it. I think the Congress leadership already understands this and Surya Bahadur Thapa of the RPP has also understood this for a long time. The UML leadership has by and large chosen not to confront this issue but the realities of politics are forcing them to open their minds too. The problem is not always with the leaders but often with their parties who don’t "get it" . All the advocates of social justice are not in these mainstream parties to counter balance and make the case. So the leaders cannot make the case, because chances are such cases will get shot down within the party before they even make it to the party manifestoes or policies. Among the mainstream parties, the NC probably has a wee bit more people who see the social justice issue as you or I see it, which is why you have been able to see some effort made by the NC, including the citizenship bill and slightly more Madesi appointments by that party. The UML by and large tries to distance itself from the social justice issue, but local units of the party have been much more responsive to social justice issues in the recent past than anytime in the history of that party. As for the RPP, take nearby Dhanusa for example. If you hear Hem Bahadur Malla or Surya Bahadur Thapa speak publicly, it would be hard to call them pahade chauvinist pigs. I think change is happening in the NC, RPP and UML ( in that order). It is not the fast paced and dramatic change you want to see but a more slow paced evolutionary change. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "What I hear you say is, they retain the power, and the Madhesis and the Janajatis please them to get what is supposed to be their right. I dislike that approach. I think the Madhesis and the Janajatis themselves should come to power" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tsk tsk ... its seems it is very easy for you to come to cynical conclusions. I am not talking about appeasement. I too would like to see Janajatis and Madesis come to power. I am a realist though and know that a Madesi or a Janajati can only come to power as a Nepali just like Bahuns or Chettris or Newars come to power as Nepalese. Exclusionary politics is the single largest barrier to attaining power. Politics 101. You have to be inclusive. I think it is a matter of plain common sense that the social justice agenda can be implemented only if it includes all Nepalese including deprived Bahuns, Chetrris , Newars, SETAMAGURALIs, Madesis, Tharus, Chepangs, Bhotias, Tibetans etc. Yes you may want to focus more on the most deprived segment, but given the kind and magnitude of change that is required in Nepal w.r.t social justice, I simply dont see such a change happening without the issue being "mainstreamed". B.t.w I went through some of the write-ups on your website. You write very well and I feel we are on the same wave length on many issues. We probably can and will go on and on arguing about the nuances of our approaches .... but I am very happy to know that you think the way you do. ( Hey, if you joined one of the mainstream parties, I bet you will be able to change more hearts and minds and bring about meaningful change than if you went with the Sadhbawana .... no no I am not a recruiter for anyone ... but think this over seriously). I rest my case. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 28-Aug-02 06:58 PM
Orion: I do not doubt your commitment to social justice. And we seem to have disagreements on tactics. Which is okay. It is great that we are swapping those disagreements in largely good faith. "Surya Bahadur Thapa of the RPP has also understood this for a long time." Nothing could be further from the truth. Nothing from his Panchayat days, nothing on his party platform while he has been party president shows that. Even the Congress' approach is piecemeal. Their recent talk of a federal form of government is a move in the positive direction, but short on specifics, and perhaps too little too late. If they are trying to resurrect the "development regions," then that will be an attempt to institutionalize the cards stacked against the Madhesis in the political framework of the country. The UML has a long history of defining nationalism as anti-Indianism which ends up seeing the Teraiwasis as scapegoats. That is vile. Your comment that the leaders get it, the parties don't get it --- what's that supposed to mean! That comes across as wordplay. "...the citizenship bill and slightly more Madesi appointments by that party..." They introduced the bill, and then let it die. Smart politics, dishonest intentions. Why slightly more, why not equal? Why not proportional to their population? "...Hem Bahadur Malla or Surya Bahadur Thapa ..." This is laughable. Malla. Thapa. Can you imagine a Mahato coming into parliament from Baneshwar? Or a Yadav from Pokhara? But the Teraiwasis have been magnanimous to send a Malla from Dhanusha. Two Mallas at one point. Why does the Madhesi community have to make its case through the Mallas and the Thapas. Why can't it have Mahatos, and Yadavs and Singhs as their political leaders all the way to the top to make the change happen? "...Politics 101. You have to be inclusive. I think it is a matter of plain common sense that the social justice agenda can be implemented only if it includes all Nepalese including deprived Bahuns, Chetrris , Newars, SETAMAGURALIs, Madesis, Tharus, Chepangs, Bhotias, Tibetans etc...." I agree. That is why I feel the Sadbhavana needs to expand ideologically and organizationally into all 75 districts. "...if you joined one of the mainstream parties, I bet you will be able to change more hearts and minds and bring about meaningful change than if you went with the Sadhbawana ...." I don't think you propose this tacitc with any malafide intentions. But it is the Sadbhavana's gravitational pull that is making the other parties at least pay lip service to the issues of the Madhesis. The BJP had two MPs in 1984. In less than a decade it had tasted power. I would not count the Sadbhavana out. |
| Orion | Posted
on 28-Aug-02 10:47 PM
I was right - this discussion will go on for a while before one of us gets sick of the other person. Well, since you still sound interesting, and I hope I am not begining to sound like a bore to you, I am going to take up the case I rested in my last post. "Your comment that the leaders get it, the parties don't get it --- what's that supposed to mean! That comes across as wordplay" With all due respect, I am only stating my understanding of reality and I am suprised as a former practicing politician you are not aware of this aspect of Nepalese politics. In my personal conversations with people close to many of our leaders ( ok ok I am boasting a little bit ... I couldn't hold this back anymore) about social justice issues I have gotten the impression that the leaders basically agreed that there are many economically,politically and socialy deprived communities including Madesis but the issue was so sensitive and so much on the fringe, that unless it got more mainstreamed, there really wasn't much these leaders wanted to do. NC people have been much more open to the idea of granting citizenship and more fedaralism and the UML has been the least receptive largely becasue of how the issue affects their constituents. That is the real world of Nepali politics -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "This is laughable. Malla. Thapa. Can you imagine a Mahato coming into parliament from Baneshwar? Or a Yadav from Pokhara? But the Teraiwasis have been magnanimous to send a Malla from Dhanusha. Two Mallas at one point. Why does the Madhesi community have to make its case through the Mallas and the Thapas. Why can't it have Mahatos, and Yadavs and Singhs as their political leaders all the way to the top to make the change happen? " ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because your perception of the Madesi Pahade divide appears to be exaggerated. Whether you like it or not, the divisions between the communities, at least as it pertains to voting patters, are nowhere near the magnitude you repeatedly keep harping on. It also seems most Madesis, simply see themselves as Nepalese before they see themselves as Madesis. As stated previously, look at the voting patterns and electoral results of the past few years to see that the Madesi identity is more a dream of the Sadhvawana party than a ground really in voting booths. Its seems the average Bhojpuri/Maithali/Hindi speakign teraibasi is much less connected to the Madesi identitiy than the Sadhvawana would like to see. Which begs the question has the party, while acting with good intentions, actually ended up deepening the Madesi / Pahade divide ? Instead of healing wounds and propogating goodwill (as its name would suggest) has the party caused bad blood between fellow Nepalese? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Even the Congress' approach is piecemeal. Their recent talk of a federal form of government is a move in the positive direction, but short on specifics, and perhaps too little too late. If they are trying to resurrect the "development regions," then that will be an attempt to institutionalize the cards stacked against the Madhesis in the political framework of the country" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Congress is talking baby steps while the Sadhbhawana is screaming for giant steps. The Congress approach may work because it seeks to mainstream an issue before transalting it into policy while the Sadhbhawana approach seems impractical at best and reckless at worst. Hopefully, the Congress will not stop on the little issues and address more issues of social justice. I give them the benefit of the doubt and believe they are acting in good faith. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The BJP had two MPs in 1984. In less than a decade it had tasted power. I would not count the Sadbhavana out. " ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Well expect that the BJP leaders were realists. They were forced to reach out beyond the Hindi-speaking cow belt and include the once separatist DMK and AGP in their coalition.They had to adopt a more broad based plan and actually DROP their narrow minded Hindutva platform. The BJP fought on the NDA platform and their agenda foved very far away from Hindutva. The Sadhbhawana has neither demonstrated the capability to reach out to different sections of society nor does it seem to have the ability any more to capitalize on public issues like the BJP did in India. I say, as convinced now as ever, the party is over. Get over it. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 28-Aug-02 11:10 PM
Orion: Your social justice for the Madhesis seems to keep going back to the Raja-Raiti model. The Girija Koiralas and Surya Bahadur Thapas of the world are the powers that be. And if the Madhesis want something, they might as well be nice to the masters. That expression itself is prejudice. The Madhesis want to become masters themselves. They want to unseat the Girija Koiralas and Surya Bahadur Thapas. That is what. If we are Nepalis first and Madhesi/Pahadi second, then the patriotic Nepalis of Baneshwar should be able to elect a Nepali Mahato/Yadav/Singh to parliament, true? But both you and I know that is not about to happen. Who is neglecting the ground reality? "....The Congress is talking baby steps while the Sadhbhawana is screaming for giant steps...." That is why the Sadbhavana will expand, the Congress will contract. "....the party is over. Get over it...." The party has not even begun. The BJP-like maneuvers, the BJP-like alliance-formations. The Sadbhavana has done these in the past, and will keep doing it. It has been into power twice already. Or is it thrice? The Sadbhavana is best-positioned of all the major parties for a hung parliament. |
| Orion | Posted
on 28-Aug-02 11:26 PM
You make a better social scientist than a politician. You seem very distanced from the working of Nepali politics. Every successive posting of yours, reinforces my belief that the Sadhbhwana will never come to power in Nepal ( by power I mean real power not as an ineffective coalition partner) if your tactics represent those of the Sadhvawana leaders. |
| sameer | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 12:32 AM
Paramendra: Some more diagreement points. In a diverse country like Nepal, extremism will not work. There is no way, I (Gurung father and newar mother) would like to be lumped with the Magars and be called mountain people. I have nothing in common with a Magar, if that's how we are going to divide the country or for that matter with the Sherpas. We need to go beyond geography and ethnicity and move towards an approach that takes a public policy angle. And, don't get me wrong, I am all for breaking the chokehold of the Bahun and Chettris in our politics. That is why I like the idea of proportional representation. If I were a Tharu adibasi, I would be pitting UML versus the NC to get the most benefit out of them, by saying heck to the extremism. The Hispanic voters have begun to do the same in the US by tilting tiwards the Republican Party making many democrats very nervous. The proportional representation system would be very suitable for such a strategic voting behavior, especially the mixed method. (read the article) I know , I know, you will come back with the Master/servant argument. But, be realistic; nepal cannot accomodate all of its ethnic aspirations by just doing four ethnically divided regions (2 mountains, 2 Terais). There is nothing wrong dreaming a dream of having a Madeshi state. The Gurkhaland is a dream too. But the reality on the ground is quite different. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 07:17 PM
Orion: With all due respect, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. The Sadbhavana is not going to do well if people with it start deserting it. On the other hand, it needs to expand ideologically as well as organizationally to be able to see a day when it comes to power on its own or as a senior partner in some coalition government. I feel we have some common ground in our thoughts. Thanks for your participation. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 07:25 PM
Sameer: "....In a diverse country like Nepal, extremism will not work. There is no way, I (Gurung father and newar mother) would like to be lumped with the Magars and be called mountain people. I have nothing in common with a Magar, if that's how we are going to divide the country or for that matter with the Sherpas....." Define extremism. Gurung father, Newar mother. I don't know which district you hail from, but I don't think there is a district or even a village full of people only with Gurung fathers and Newar mothers, nor a "zone," not a development region, not even a country. But you have had a sense of belonging so far. How is the Eastern-Terai, Western-Terai, Eastern-Hills, Western-Hills, Kathmandu-Valley demarcation any less hospitable? I think both of us are for the (1) proportional representation, and (2) the federal government idea. Where we disagree is to the shape and sizes of the states. There we need to keep talking. Both of us understand each other's stated positions. So, if this dialogue is to be fruitful, both of us need to make new proposals, and try to make compromises. I await your input on that front. "If I were a Tharu adibasi, I would be pitting UML versus the NC to get the most benefit out of them, by saying heck to the extremism. The Hispanic voters have begun to do the same in the US by tilting tiwards the Republican Party making many democrats very nervous." I don't discredit your tactic. I think it is wonderful. But I just don't sense that competition between those two parties. They are not really trying to outbid each other in terms of how much they will do for the Madhesis and the Janajatis. "There is nothing wrong dreaming a dream of having a Madeshi state. The Gurkhaland is a dream too. But the reality on the ground is quite different." There is no comparison between the Gurkhaland idea and the federal form of government proposal of the Sadbhavana. Please take a second look. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 07:42 PM
This is to be condemned in the strongest terms by individuals of all political backgrounds. The law enforcement authorities have to bring the culprits to justice. And appropriate security measures taken in the hereafter to safeguard Tripathy's residence. This is an attack on the democratic polity. On public discourse. On civility. Assailants manhandle NSP general secretary’s wife A group of unidentified assailants stormed into the residence of Hridesh Tripathi, General Sectary of Nepal Sadbhawana party Thursday afternoon and hurt his wife Shova Tripathi before looting some goods, party sources said. The motive behind the attack is still not clear. The police have been hunting for the assailants while the party in a press release issued late evening has vehemently condemned the attack. nepalnews.com am Aug 30 http://www.nepalnews.com.np/archive/2002/august/arc463.htm#9 |
| Hmmm... | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 08:46 PM
this is a failure of government to provide a nomal secure life to people. if this happens to a visible persons's house, what is the fate for rest of us. the culprits have to be brought to justice NOW. justice delayed is justice denied. |
| Orion | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 09:02 PM
That's terrible and I hope they arrest and lock up the bastards who did this. |
| sameer | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 09:19 PM
Orion and Paramendra: I concur with you all in condeming such a cowardly act. What a pity. A country that used to be the safest in the world is turning into a most dangerous one. A prestinine one into a most polluted one....from a most gentle serene one into a most barbaric one (remember all the cutting of the heads...and that a WWII veteran gave a statement, after witnessing the Salleri incident, that he had never seen anything like it even during the massive warfare that he was presonally involved in. I still remember walking at midnight with friends from the shows in Kathmandu without any fear singing through the streets. Nepali people have been totally desensatized, but too much complacancy on the part of the public, for whatever reason, could back fire in the long-run. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 09:20 PM
Thank you Orion and Hmmm.. for taking a stand. This is an incident that begs the silent majority to abandon its silence. |
| BAM | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 09:26 PM
Jatho Ghusya lai hanyo, thikai garyo. Aba Girija, Khume, Badri Mandal, Radha Krishna sablai thoknu parcha. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 09:41 PM
Hridayesh Tripathy: http://www.5tigers.org/NewsLetters/CatNews/no.28/cn28p15.htm http://www.nepalnews.com.np/contents/englishweekly/spotlight/2001/jul/jul13/bottomline.htm http://www.nepalnews.com.np/contents/englishweekly/sundaydespatch/1999/Sep/Sep26/national.htm http://www.yomari.com/p-review/1999/07/290799/mai.html http://www.yomari.com/p-review/1999/11/181199/a.html http://www.greencom.org/greencom/pdf/updates/498updt.pdf http://www.geocities.com/paramendra/2002/sadbhavana.html http://www.geocities.com/paramendra/2002/nepal.html http://www.nepalresearch.com/publications/gescheiterte_reform.htm http://library.wustl.edu/~listmgr/tnd/0285.html http://www.btinternet.com/~sagarmatha.time/dec/news.htm http://library.wustl.edu/~listmgr/tnd/0293.html http://www.fesnepal.org/newsclippings_archive2001.htm http://gbnc.org/sajha/html/openThread.cfm?forum=2&ThreadID=6170 http://www.panasia.org.sg/nepalnet/news/may2000/23.htm Searching for Hridayesh Tripathy at Google.com -------------- |
| sameer | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 10:01 PM
Paramenrda: Extremism is a relative term. In a country with an unitary system of government, monarchy and 54 different languages, a strong two party parliamentary system, do you really think they will grant you two Terai federal states (two mini Bihar and mini UP in many people's eyes)? That is why we are trying to throw a middle ground. There are many people like Orion who don't think very highly of the Sadhabhawana party and actually favor making the big party more inclusive through various public policy agendas. And many will never go for the proportional representation system either. Two Terais and two Hills will have a population imbalances. But this aside, I would like to know what your arguments are for two terais and two hills. Remember, not all hill people (paharias) are alike. I gave you my reasonings for a regional argument but you never gave me yours. =================================================== But I have an alternative suggestion: say we go gung ho and make 9 states: 4 in the hills and 4 in the Terais and one in Kathmandu. We can work on some sort of ethnic mix. Then, (remember, the hills will have lower population densities), we create a upper house just like in the US, and allow 2 or 4 representatives from each State. (The Terai will not get more representatives just because they have more population. The populationa business has already been taken care of in the lower house. ) This is the check and balance act. But no proportional representation, because big parties will not go fo it. Would you favor this? Remember, it is all about compromise. The reality will not let you have everything you want. If you were to choose between this and the one with the regional federal states, and proportional representation, which one would you pick? |
| sameer | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 10:06 PM
Paramendra: Oh I forgot to add one more requirement in the 9 state proposal: a closed border. |
| Orion | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 10:53 PM
I agree that we need to agree to disagree. I look forward to discussing ideas with you on other topics. My parting words: Having great ideas alone is not enough - one needs to have great ideas that work. From where I see things, that's what differentiates our approaches. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 11:57 PM
Orion: I too look forward to discussing other topics with you. But this topic does not have to end on such a note. I guess our disagreement is that you are suggesting the social justice movement has to make use one of the three largest parties, namely the Congress - well, that is two - the UML, and the RPP. And I am betting my horse on the Sadbhavana. I feel the social justice movement can be best served with this party as its vehicle. So we agree to disagree. But I would like to ask you, how exactly can the big four - 2 Congresses - be brought to make the social justice movement its own? Should we trust their top leaders will do the homework? Should we hope they are lobbied into it? A grass-roots movement? I think it would be wonderful if the large parties could come around to it, but I just don't see how. Specifically how? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 11:58 PM
Sameer: A closed border? Now you have really lost me. Hare Ram, Shiva, Shiva, Shiva. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 12:11 AM
Sameer: ".....do you really think they will grant you two Terai federal states...." You miss the point. It is not about THEY and THEM. It is about electoral politics. It is about building a coalition. It is about getting the votes. It is about legislative initiatives. It is about political work. About organization. About debates and discussions. It is about sufficient people acting as architects with their votes. I agree that not everyone is for proportional representation and for a federal form of government. But you and I are. Where we disagree is as to the shape and size of the states. You want the five development regions turned into states. I think not. I think this paragraph is a fair summary of our disagreement. "....do you really think they will grant you two Terai federal states..." This is a more constructive approach to the disagreement. And I have not fully thought about it, looked at it from different angles. But please give me some time. I will. And come up with some comments. Only, this proposal can not be a way to suddenly get rid of the agreement on proportional representation. Other than that, I don't want this dialogue to sound like we are two people who have been bestowed with the responsibility to carve out the nation. This is a cyber discussion. At an online community. Far detached from the ground. Worth the effort, but not the real thing. My question: how would you demarcate the 9 states geographically? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 12:14 AM
Sorry. Major typo. Sameer's second quote was to be this: "..make 9 states: 4 in the hills and 4 in the Terais and one in Kathmandu..." |
| sameer | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 02:10 AM
Paramendra: The life about compromises. I just want to know how flexible you, a guy who started defending the Sadbhawana party, in accomodating other views. Please don't resort to the electorate, coalition, and so on arguments: Pardon my rudeness... but the reality is different. I am still waiting for: You rationality for 5 states: 2 Terais and 2 Hills, and 1 Kathmandu. A: 9 states, anyway you want. 4 from each State to the Upper House, Sadhvawana's commitment to a closed border, no proportional representation. (I am guessing that a real Nepali like yourself will not hesitate to a closed border; that way you will make the Maoists happy too by giving them one of their demands: monitoring of foreign workers-- if it means resting to peace many fears that many nepalis have about an open border and a Terai State. It should not be news to you that such feelings exist.) B: Federal states: 5 dev. regions, proportional representation. no messing around with the current constitution. |
| BAM | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 08:47 AM
Make two states - TERAI and PAHAD. PARAMENDRA - KING of TERAI; GYANENDRA - KING of PAHAD ;-). |
| paramendra | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 09:33 AM
Bam: Very funny. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 09:46 AM
Sameer: You offer a false choice. And a closed border is never going to happen. And I have no desires whatsoever to make any Maoist happy. The only way we can go from here is to say, (1) We agree on proportional representation, and (2) we agree on a federal form of government. The impending question: what shape ought that federal government take? If that is where we are at, we can talk. But let's not go to a false talk of choices. "I am still waiting for: You rationality for 5 states: 2 Terais and 2 Hills, and 1 Kathmandu." Once you agree on a federal form of government, the next question is, well, you need states. Each citizen will also belong to some state just like each belongs to a district/VDC. Someone in a north-eastern district would rather go to Dhankuta for their state capital than to Biratnagar, and hence a state for the Eastern Hills. And so on. The states are attempts at geographical circles so as to facilitate transportation/communication within. Each state will have the number of parliamentary constituencies proportional to its population that will be drawn without regard to the district boundaries. And the upper house would be composed out of the percentage of votes each of the national parties might gather. |
| sameer | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 02:30 PM
Paramendra: False choices to you and the Sadhavawana are false positions to many. Because, the choice set consists of: Closed border, open border, work permit, unitary system versus federal system, proportional representation vs first-past-the-post election (the current system), giving voices to minorities and assigning quotas, Hindu State versus secular state, a republic versus constitutional monarchy; And the federal system with several options: 16 ethnically defined regions, five development regions, 2-Terai, 2Hill, 1Kathmandu state system, keeping the status-quo of 75 districs, reduced 35 districs, not. The Sadhavawana party's choice set: A federal state with 2 Terais, 2Hills, 1 Kathmandu; open border, proportional representation. With many players in the Nepali political games, including smaller parties like Sadhvawana and RPP, now we are into a non-cooperative game theoretic scenario, which reminds me of the following scene from the movie: A Beautiful Mind: "Do we want to cooperate that would enable all friends around the table to get laid with the friends of the girl they have a chance to date, whereas none of them would if they fought over one woman they can't have?" Is Sadhavawana ready to cooperate and move forward with something less than perfect? With due respect, I am still not convinced with your 2-Hill, 2-Terai, 1 Kathmandu ratonality. You have to do better than the distance to Dhankuta argument. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 03:09 PM
Sameer: You keep shifting ground. I grant you this: "With due respect, I am still not convinced with your 2-Hill, 2-Terai, 1 Kathmandu ratonality. You have to do better than the distance to Dhankuta argument." I perhaps need to work harder here. Or maybe you are as firmly entrenched in your belief as I am in mine, but then, at this point, you can not go back and abandon your two agreements: (1) proportional representation, and (2) a federal form of government. I also grant you the fact that your agreement on those two might not be where the majority of Nepalis might be at this point, but then YOU, in this thread, can not both agree and disagree with those two stands. Can't have it both ways. On work permit, I think it is Nepal which does not want that. Because many more Nepalis work in India than Indians (as opposed to Madhesis - two different groups) in Nepal. You have presented an impressive summary: "Closed border, open border, work permit, unitary system versus federal system, proportional representation vs first-past-the-post election (the current system), giving voices to minorities and assigning quotas, Hindu State versus secular state, a republic versus constitutional monarchy..." That is a neat list. "....16 ethnically defined regions .........reduced 35 districts ........." The closed border option is not an option. That is never going to happen. The Indians gave Nepal a closed border option in was it 1989: the Nepalis didn't like it. I feel like if we were to take the two for granted: (1) proportional representation, and (2) a federal form of government Then, for the purposes of this thread, we could have a fruitful discussion as to what shape the federal form would then subsequently take. I am not the Sadbhavana, and you are not the rest of Nepal. We are two individuals cyber-talking. Our exercise is hypothetical, with possible real repercussions. |
| sameer | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 04:20 PM
Paramendra: If I were the rest of Nepal, I would not be talking about the fedeferal state and the proportional representation. As for you and the Sadhavawana, your numerous thread postings do support and defend the Sadhavawana and its position. Pardon me for my presumptiousness, but that is why I see it. You did have a long exchanges with Orion and several others, and it is quite clear that you are a strong supporter. Nothing wrong with it, if I might add. Actually, that is why I got attracted to have this exchange with you. I am willing to drop that labeling with an apology. No problem, if that bothers you. Still, it does not change the reality of your stated preferences: 2-Terai states with open border, and proportional representation. We may be very rational and gentlemanly about our discussion and have all the great ideas in the world, but the reality must be introduced. Thet is why I expanded the set to introduce some political realities, to the best of my ability. So I must ask you to give me this: there are many who are scared of creating 1 mini-Bihar and 1 mini-UP with an open border. (I hate to use this language, but I am playing a devil's advocate here, and I hope you will understand it.) We may stop our conversation at federalism and proportional representation. Fine, but the devil is in the details. On top of it, you are depriving the Hill people of the benefits of the fertile Terai lands and industrial activities. Locking them in the rugged hills with all sorts of hardships (your proposal of two Hill states) you are guaranteeing a mass migration in the Terai States. It has a host of other problems I can site, including numerous interstate and inter-country fights over water resources. But that is not the focus here. I am not shifting my position. I am just trying to introduce a litle dose of reality by opening the set of options. There are people other than Sameer and Paramendra. Don't forget UML, NC, RPP, and many others.... Now, I am still not sure what then the Sadhavawana stands for. I see their position as being: open border, 2 Terai States and 2 hill states and also perhaps proportional representation (I had not heard of it, but they would take it, I gather, and remember we started out with Bohara's articles where he proposes these two things: federalism and proportional resentation.) Are you willing to accomodate? If so, what is your accomodating positions? I have stated mine several times, but you have stuck to your original one. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 04:52 PM
Sameer: It is not my intention to distance myself from the Sadbhavana. My statement was entirely technical: I am not a card carrying member of the Sadbhavana, primarily due to geography. I am not there. But I am proud of my Sadbhavana past and association. My father contested the parliamentary elections of 1991 on a Sadbhavana ticket from Mahottari constituency 3. And I was an office holder with the Nepal Samajwadi Janata Dal, the breakaway group that merged back into the Sadbhavana a few years down the line. My statement was about this online forum. Here I do not speak as an official representative of the Sadbhavana, but as my person sympathetic to the Sadbhavana cause. Defending th Sadbhavana "...your stated preferences: 2-Terai states with open border, and proportional representation..." That's an apt summary of where I stand. "...: there are many who are scared of creating 1 mini-Bihar and 1 mini-UP with an open border..." That is an expression of prejudice. It is the same mentality that says Madhesis are not Nepalis. That is what the struggle is against. The Terai is not Bihar or UP any more than Kathmandu is Darjeeling. "..We may stop our conversation at federalism and proportional representation. Fine, but the devil is in the details. .." I want to talk details. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 04:55 PM
Drawing your attention to another article I wrote a few years back: Mainstreaming Sadbhavana |
| sameer | Posted
on 31-Aug-02 06:16 PM
Paramendra I read your writings. There is nothing wrong in defending a certain position including that of the Sadbhavana. A closed border to Sadhvawana may be a prejudice issue, but to many it is a sovereignty issue. I brought this point only to open up the diagolue and to try to get some accomodating posture out of you. I did not mean to sound as a racist person. I apologize, if I did. Remember we are discussing federalism and proportional representation (PR) after reading Bohara's articles. But, you keep getting stuck to your original points: federalism and PR, with 2-Terai State singular option. Fine. Thus I began to suspect that you are a hardcore Sadhvawana person. I apologize for my rudeness, but that is how I see. Because you fail to deviate from their positions: open border and 2 Terai States. Many Americans are against opening the southern border too, and that too can be characterized as being prejudice or a national interest perhaps. As for the details, I have given you many details about the North/South demarcation as in the regional argument: water resource argument, sharing of other resources argument, game theory argument, migration argument, pahari/madhesi assembly joining resources and working together for the common good argument, avoiding water rights fight argument. Your argument in favor of the Terai State is confined to the distance to Dhankuta versus to Biratnagar. You need to think about 100 years from now too. Just remember the American frontiers, they also had vast distances. Your writing has a title: The Economy, The Economy, and The Economy and yet your Terai State argument does not have any economic element. By confining all the Hill people to rugged hills and triggering a mass migration is very dangerous, especially with the open border in the south. This, by some, can be construded as being motivated by prejudice too. Maybe we are at a point where we just have to say good bye. I don't see any way we can come to a diagnol position. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 01-Sep-02 07:19 PM
Sameer: This discussion is far from over. But that does not mean one of us can not call it quits. That is not a loss. We are not competing. But I feel like you have raised many important questions. The Closed Border Option That can not be tied to the federalism debate. If it is a worthwhile endeavor, it ought to be worthwhile even if Nepal retains its unitary form of government. And we should discuss the issue on its own merits or lack thereof. I reiterate, India gave Nepal closed borders in 1989, and Nepal did not like it. Federalism and Proportional Representation After that, the question remains, what shape ought those two take? I am not stuck on the 2 states in the Terai idea. Maybe we ought to have three: Eastern, Middle, Western. And four in the hills. Maybe 5 in the hills. The north-south demarcation. The development region idea. That is hollow. The answer to your questions on the economy, two words: inter-state commerce. Also, there are several forms of federalism. The one in India is of a version where the central government is all powerful. Less so in the US. We might opt for a federalism that retains a strong central government, in which case your concerns will be addressed. Work Permit It is akin to the closed border topic. It is not India. It is Nepal that does not want to introduce work permits, and for good reasons. Quotas Some form of quotas will have to be part of the social justice solution, no doubt. Hindu State versus Secular State Secular. This is a no-brainer. Though politically very hard. But, c'mon, not all Nepalis are Hindus, so Nepal can not be labelled a Hindu nation. Republic versus Constitutional Monarchy I don't consider this a closed topic. But definitely closed for now. We can not capitulate to the Maoist demand. If the monarchy is to be done away with, it will have to done by a parliamentary amendment to the constitution, not through violence. "....16 ethnically defined regions .........reduced 35 districts ........." The phraseology is a creative approach to the federalism question. We should look at many options. |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 01-Sep-02 07:30 PM
Dear Pramendra, Your following two topics are conflicting. Because All Nepalis are not Hindus, so Nepal can not be labelled a Hindu nation, but, you propose to have 16ethnically defined regions? Do you want to screen and let only a particular ethinic be based on that particular region? Are not you conflicting? I observe, you tell first statement, because you claim in Berea ... College that you are buddhists, so Hindu state is not entertaining to you, so you reject Nepal being Hindu state, but, you advocate ethinically defined regions "making pure?" because that is favourable to your need. So, are not you trying to use two separate yard sticks? Pramendra writes: Hindu State versus Secular State Secular. This is a no-brainer. Though politically very hard. But, c'mon, not all Nepalis are Hindus, so Nepal can not be labelled a Hindu nation. "....16 ethnically defined regions .........reduced 35 districts ........." The phraseology is a creative approach to the federalism question. We should look at many options. |
| sameer | Posted
on 01-Sep-02 09:37 PM
Paramendra: I am still waiting to hear from you some logical explanation: open border and Terai States. |
| samer | Posted
on 02-Sep-02 10:00 AM
test |
| sameer | Posted
on 02-Sep-02 11:34 AM
Paramendra: Let's drop the border issue for now. It is a touchy issue especially in the context of a Terai State. It is not just about federalism. Let's move on however: I was about to call it quits, but I am going to give it a one more shot: Both of us like federalism. OK. We have 3 to 4 options: 1. 2 Terais States and 2 Hill States (capturing ethnic sentiment, e.g., Madhesi's primarily ) 2. 16 ethnically carved out provinces (capturing broader ethnic sentiment, e.g., Tharu, Magar, Rai, Newar, Sherpa, Bhojpuri,Gurngs, Chettris, Bahuns, Limbu, Tamang, Muslims, and so on....) 3. 5 development region states (North-South resource consolidation argument plus Madhesi/Pahari integration argument) You seem to be open to the idea of number 2. Explain some more! How and why? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 02-Sep-02 10:21 PM
Guru: "16 ethnically defined regions" -- that is Sameer's phrase, not mine. I don't think someone of your intellectual calibre ought to even think twice before agreeing that yes, Nepal ought be declared a secular state. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 02-Sep-02 10:27 PM
Sameer: After we agree on the two basics of proportional representation and federalism, the slate is clean. I have taken a position in the past, so have you. But now let's start from scratch to give shape to that federalism: (1) How many states? 2? 3? 5? 9? 16? (2) What would those be? If I were talking homogeneity, I'd suggest three: Himal, Pahad, Terai. I am not. I think, after we agree on the number, those states ought to be approximate geographic circles. India: Maharashtra, Tamilnadu, Kerala .... Marathas, Tamils ... UK: Wales, Scotland .......... I don't think we want states that are culturally homogenous. There is no such thing. But we can not have those development regions just to deprive the Teraiwasis of states where they might be in perpetual majorities. |
| sameer | Posted
on 02-Sep-02 11:09 PM
Paramendra: You got me wrong Paramendra. No intelligent person will just think about Terai as a focus of our (decenralized and/of federal) problem. Nepal is more than just abput Madhesis: it is about Magars, Rai, Bahusn, Limbus, Sherpas, Gurungs, Bhojpuris, Newars, Tamangs and so on. The Sadhavawana cannot simply focus on one narrow interest: 2 Terai State with open border. You must accomodate numerous ethnic groups as well, Paramendra. The 16 or 14 or 25 -ethnically motivated province talk has been raised, and so it is not my word. It is as valid as the 2-Terai concept. Paramendra and Sameer cannot simply revolve around their chatline world and not consider some other options. As for the UK's and Indian examples: they were independent countries (more or less) who joined the union, so became a federal state. In our case, we are trying to divide them by finding some ethnical allignment. My request to you: give me some rationality of the 2-Terai argument. You still have not given me any. Maybe, we have to just wait to see if the Sadhavawana can be mainstream in Nepal (you seem to think so) and convince the whole country to go that rounte: 2-Terai and a permanent open border. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 02-Sep-02 11:51 PM
Sameer: You are going round in circles. This sub-topic feels stuck. And often we sound like we are merely repeating our previous postings. Again. After an agreement on the two principles, let's brainstorm on the shape of that federalism. What shape do you suggest and why? What shape do I suggest and why? To me the federalism is important. To me it is important King Birendra's defunct "development regions" are done away with for good. Beyond that I think it is important we hear many people suggest what shape the federalism ought to take and why. So I would rather collect opinions on the topic than try and marshall a few arguments, none of which seem to go through, as far as you are concerned. About ANF | Assessing the New Federalism - The Urban Institute Federalism in the United States of America The Federalism Project Center for the Study of Federalism Institute of Federalism Close Up Foundation: Federalism P.S. King Janak is about 100 times more famous than King Prithvi Narayan Shah. Don't discount Mithila's independent past. Talk about Wales, Scotland. |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 03-Sep-02 12:08 AM
Paramendra's appreciation on the phrase was itself in indication of support to the idea, well, he suggested to look at other facets too, but, when an idea is wrong, it should be first wrong. "The phraseology is a CREATIVE APPRAOCH to the federalism question." In fact, before reading this "CREATIVE APPROACH" phrase, I read your article on Berea... College, I liked your writing very much and I mean the issue you raised, let eductional institutions remain away from religion. But, when I found that particular phrase "CREATIVE approach", I was partly disappointed. .... Well, I am don't want go beyond this clarification. HG |
| paramendra | Posted
on 03-Sep-02 12:23 AM
Guru: Perhaps I should have used the word "alternate" to "creative." We ought to look at many possible forms of federalism other than the three listed above by Sameer. This is a time to be collecting ideas/opinions. That is the phase of discussion we are at, I feel. |
| HahooGuru | Posted
on 03-Sep-02 12:39 AM
Yes, I agree with you. "alternate" is very neutral word, and "creative" was mistaken. I think its very important, specially for you, who is in sociology, and when you are an activist against discreminations, and social injustice. You single word if misused because of lack your time, or effort, then, we are going to take it otherwise. So, lets remember a quote: "when you lack your resources, your veneers go to market unglued, and .......... it might turn out to be a spiraling event". My personal suggestion to even in extreme condition, don't let your veneer go to market unglued. HG |
| Desh_Bhakta | Posted
on 03-Sep-02 12:43 AM
are u guys smoking. |
| sameer | Posted
on 03-Sep-02 01:04 AM
Paramendra: "P.S. King Janak is about 100 times more famous than King Prithvi Narayan Shah. Don't discount Mithila's independent past..... " No comment! "So I would rather collect opinions on the topic than try and marsh all a few arguments, none of which seem to go through, as far as you are concerned." Please do so. But you still have to give me argument on behalf of 2-Terai States,without forgetting about the other ethnic groups in Nepal: Gurungs, Rai, Magars, Bahun,. Chettris, Newars, Tamangs, Thakali, Sherpas, Tharus,..and about 54 languages.... |
| desh_bhakta | Posted
on 03-Sep-02 02:06 AM
I all, I am really concerned about all those who want to segregate themselves from the pack. But then again I respect you all for that coz u all had the rights to do so. (Thank god we are not in once Taliban ruled Afghanistan.) I mean the Augusta national golf club is not letting women to be the member of the their club. What the hell right, they, {Hottie Johnson, president or chairman of Augusta National, (lol, what a name, Hootie) severed all ties with the sponsors of Masters, coz he thought that the women group will pressure all those company that are sponsors of The Masters to boycott The Masters in 2003 and so on, If not then the women group will urge the most imp. group that make decision in shopping in the great old USA, damn women (I love this country) not to use their product. But then again all the sponsors that advertise in Masters are like Cadillac I mean give me a break and so on I have not seen any chick that drives a Cadillac since my grand mother died 5 years ago but I could be wrong and my apologies to all women who drive Cadillac. I still prefer Hyundai’s they are cheap and good on gas mileage and I still watch Masters and golf as a whole as long as they are majors but not all four days. Ok, so where do we go from here, segregation? Not. I personally don’t believe in segregation but then again what do I know about that, right? I was born in the good old feudal Nepal. I should be writing columns in Sajha or WSJ about it, but it’s hard to write any thing between Corona and Guinness stout. I mean we have people here in Sajha that are kool and old school and then we have the new kids on the block. Of course we are not gonna have the best of conversation since some of us want to change the world in 80 days and some of us want to party for 80 days in a row and all I want is beer refill for free. Finally, To all my Sajha peers, I understand you, feel you, share with you, frustrated with you, angry with you and don’t give a rat a$$ about it. So help me god. P.S. Hey will you contribute to my fund to help Nepal I am just $ 5 billion short and if you are interested u can email me deshbkt@yahoo.com Thanks God bless you all. |
| GS | Posted
on 03-Sep-02 01:40 PM
Guys: You really have a lot of time on your hand to do all this bullshit talk. Stop dividing Nepal on the chatline. It is not very productive, especially when there are a lot of people in Nepal who do not share your views, and they have other priorities. It is one Nepal and it is for all Nepalis. Be sensible. Raja Janak? Give me a break. Janak, Sita, Ram all are mythical personalities and what do they have to do with PN Shah. Virgin Mary and Jesus Christ have always been more popular than George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Chruchill. So what? Be practical guys. Terai, no Terai, who cares! Live in harmony as one Nepali, and just be careful that our southern neighbor does not swallow up Nepal. Now the new Bush doctrine allows countries to do a preemptive invasion. Make sure that those ISI (Paks) do not operate from Nepal. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 03-Sep-02 04:18 PM
Sadbavana to field 107 candidates Sadbavana to field 107 candidates Nepal Sadbavana Party will field 107 candidates in the November 13 snap national polls. Acting president Badri Prasad Mandal made the announcement Monday while addressing Morang district committee. The party will not field candidates in Maoist affected areas, he said. Elections are being held for 205 seats of the House of Representatives. nepalnews.com br Sept.3 Yahoo Clubs: Nepal Sadbhavana Party |
| Surya G | Posted
on 03-Sep-02 10:09 PM
Parmendra, I do not think Sadbhavana backs this up but when you said : "This is a no-brainer. Though politically very hard. But, c'mon, not all Nepalis are Hindus, so Nepal can not be labelled a Hindu nation. " Do you really know what you are talking about ? Don't you know these missionaries are converting lots of poor people in Nepal into Christianity by giving them financial and other benefits ? Thus, they are creating unnecessary differences between Nepalese. Our otherwise homogeneous and harmonious society is gradually changing into a society of religious chaos. I will give an example. Babar came to India with only 500 soldiers in 16th century. The whole India was a homogeneous society. Everybody adopted 'Sanatana Dharma'. Now, see the crop of the poisionous seed that Babar sowed then - Pakistan and Bangladesh, separated only in the name of religion. Moreover, Indians and Pakistanies, who have common ancestors, are arch enemies now only in the name of religion. If we make this poor Nepal secular, all the Arab and European dollars will pour in this country just to convert people into a different religion. This is already happening to certain extent here. I think Nepal should not only remain a Hindu society but it should also ban conversion until we become prosperous, people can really enjoy their freedom, and they are free to think what religion is good and what is bad. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 04-Sep-02 01:27 AM
Surya G: My statement on secularism is my own, not the Sadbhavana's. I disagree with what you say. Violates that basic human right: freedom of religion. Personally I think it would be great if all the so-called low-caste Hindus, the Dalits, converted to non-Hinduism, and thus voted with their feet on the intractable casteism in the Nepali society. Babar or no Babar. The Indian Muslims are one discriminated group. They fare worse than the African Americans in the US. It is patronizing to think of the Indian Muslims as some once-upon-a-time-Hindus as it is to see Buddhism as a mere subset of Hinduism. |
| orion | Posted
on 04-Sep-02 10:38 AM
Yawn, while its good to see this spirited discussion going on, the thread is getting awfully long. Paramendra, now that the party has announced some election plans, have you put any thought into campaigning for the party? Also, how many seats do you think the party will bag this time? You know what, you should be a candidate for the party - I am sure there is a lot you have to offer the party and country. Sameer, I think you display a very mature and cautious approach to issues and politics that displays a very good understanding of the realities of politics in Nepal. Maybe we should catch up over coffee/beer since Paramendra seems very busy battling what appears to be his axis of evil . I live in Boston - what about you? (And, Paramendra the coffee offer still stands for you ... so don't think I am singling you out because I disagree with you.) |
| sameer | Posted
on 04-Sep-02 01:10 PM
Friends: We can talk all we want about Raja Janak's popularity over Prithiwi N. Shah, Babar's barbarism, Mithila's independence, closed border, open border, 2 Terais states, 5 regional states, 16 ethinic states, Dalits, Gurungs, Magars, Muslims, secularism, conversion into non-Hinduism... but don't forget "Even roads paved with good intentions can still lead to hell." |
| sameer | Posted
on 04-Sep-02 01:13 PM
Orion: I am flattered, but I have to take a raincheck. I am not in the Boston area. But, I would love to give you a call, if I am around that area. Thanks. sameer |
| sameer | Posted
on 04-Sep-02 04:14 PM
Paramendra and Orion: (Orion, I promise this is the last one on this topic.) Paramendra wrote: "I don't think we want states that are culturally homogenous. There is no such thing." So, why get hung up on the 2-Terai argument. To many, the Terai is a culturally homogenous place. So, why not make it a melting pot and force them (Terai/Hill) to work together to exploit a few massive river basins, region by region. Don't discount and dismiss the regional set-up with those invaluable river basins (FWest: Mahakali/Seti; West: Bheri/Rapti; MWest: Karnali/Gandaki; East: Kosi/Arun etc...) Our ticket to success is these river basins and the industrial development around them, and so instead of wasting our time in looking for our differences, we may want to pull our resources for the sake of common economic interest. For example, by involving the Indian private sector into these hydro activities together with the Nepali public/private sectors, the regions can embark on a healthy competition. The Indian parters will be our lobbysts in getting us good energy market in India. There are many in Nepal, who would be more than willing to think along this line. Because, the minute one raises the Terai sentiment, it ends being perceived as a communal sentiment, and the host of other emotions --gurungs, magars, rai, newa, bahun, chettrir-- begin to prop up, and they must be addressed too. You saw that in this thread too. Look, California, a melting pot, is the 7th largest economy in the world. Melting pot does not mean abandoning your cultural identity. Don't get me wrong. Paramendra wrote: "But we can not have those development regions just to deprive the Teraiwasis of states where they might be in perpetual majorities." This is why I was suggesting a give and take: proportional representation. In a multi-player game, there are multiple Nash equilibria. The key is to converge to one that is acceptable to many. The public policy approach with a larger voice and potential coalition power can bring about changes that you desire. It may not happen over night, but it will go there eventually. Otherwise, we all will go home without getting laid. (Mr. Nash: A Beautiful Mind) Many like us will be wasting our time talking about Babar, Mithila, closed border, and conversion into non-Hindu religions. The opportunity cost is too high for one of the poorest countries in the world. We must start to think differently. Paramendra, you are a perceptive person. Think about it. Many of the things we are discussing and advocating here are not 100% palatable to me either. But, the life is about compromises and we all must be aware of the realities on the ground, we call Nepal. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 16-Sep-02 03:54 PM
Sameer: Just to let you know I have been giving your proposal some serious thoughts. (1) A lower house that has 205 parliamentary constituencies based on equal population. (2) The percentage of votes earned by each national party determines the percentage of their seats in the upper house. (3) And you suggest the five "development regions" evolve into five states. I am open to the possibility of (3) but I also feel there has to be broad discussion as to the shape of the possible states. And hence other options have to be kept open. |