| Username |
Post |
| Democrats |
Posted
on 10-Aug-02 10:34 AM
The question, though many hesitate to pose it today, is the following: does Nepal really need the institution of monarchy? This is not meant to be a discussion motivated by a sinister and abject hatred for the current royal family and its apparatus. This is meant to be a rational and substantive inquiry for those interested.
Unfortunately as most of you know the news media in Nepal is currently shrowded in darkness. What I find most interesting is that although the media has been placed under such severe restrictions as to what it can publish and what it cannot, newspapers are not barred from being critical of popularly elected political parties and personalities. Why is that all entitities and political organizations OTHER than Narayanhiti can come under scrutiny and even flagrant criticims while this cannot happen with respect to King Gynendra or Prince Paras? Are they really above the fray and do they deserve to be so? What is the "character" of the King and Prince, in the past and in the present? Have they committed any offenses, legally speaking? Have they broken the law, and have they made forays into the political life of the country beyond what is strictly defined for them in the constitution?
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| Soleil |
Posted
on 10-Aug-02 02:04 PM
I am totally lost here. The way I see it, "Media Needed in Nepal?" would have been the appropriate title for your thread. Do I see any other rational and substantial inquiries (in author's own terms)? Ma ta confoose hai, thaha chhaina aru le kehi relevancy dekhlaan ki?
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| paramendra |
Posted
on 10-Aug-02 06:36 PM
Democrats
ID: 29247011:
I think you have posed an important question.
There are various reasons why the monarchy exists:
(1) It has historically been the most powerful institution in the country.
(2) To many it is one symbol of stability in the country.
(3) There are many Nepalis who actually do believe the King is a Vishnu Avatar! I mean, I don't. But many do. It is hard to challenge a power that is considered divine. ;-)
(4) An office - like that of the President in India - to safeguard the constitution.
(5) Many Hindu fanatics inside the country and out are all gungho about the idea the Shaha is the only Hindu king in the world.
(6) The Shahas are Pahadiyas. That helps perpetuate the image that Nepal is primarily a country of the Pahadiyas.
(7) The Shahas are the center piece of the Kathmandu elite. The Shahas, the Ranas, and the well-connected Bahun, Chhetris. And some Newars, and Marwadis.
(8) The army is still called the Royal Nepalese Army. There is some loyalty issue there.
Strictly speaking (4) is the only relevant political reason. And for that having a President would be at least 100 times cheaper, and a Madhesi, a woman, a SeTaMaGuRaLi could become President, which, I think, would be great.. But I don't think such a possibility can be broached now: that would be like giving in to the Maoists. On the other hand, later, if and when there is peace and prosperity, the question might not even arise.
So, I guess, what I am saying is you have posed a rather difficult question.
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| socio political issue |
Posted
on 10-Aug-02 07:26 PM
Just wanted to add my 2 cents in support of Parmendra.
The institution is there to protect not just the constitution but also the morals of the people (not the new generation) in the country. I personally am not affected by the impact of monarchy but it is needed for the stability of the country.
Once the people are educated and Nepal gets ahead with the economical development this might not even be an issue
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| jackofall |
Posted
on 10-Aug-02 08:56 PM
In today's context the institution of monarchy is not only relevant but essential for Nepal's survival as a nation. It is the symbol of unity for people of many creeds and ethnic groups that make up Nepal.
The so called "democrats" have only pillaged and looted the people forcing a whole lot of them to join the Maoist. They were only interested in lining their deep pockets while the common man suffered endlessly. Leaders like Girija pledge their allegiance to India.....more than King Wangchuck of Bhutan. It's a damn shame.
Jack
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| Desh_Bhakta_Bhattarai |
Posted
on 10-Aug-02 09:51 PM
Mr./Mrs./Ms. Democrats, I guess Monarchy is a symbol for Nepal. We all know that since ancient times, Nepal has been known as a kingdom. Does'nt "Kingdom of Nepal" sound much better than "The Republic of Nepal"? So, I guess, I would hate to see people like Mr. Girija P. Koirala or Mr. Madhav Kumar Nepal running for presidency!
No matter whoever rules Nepal, whether a king or a president, may he/her rule benevolently, justly and wisely!
God Bless Nepal!
~Desh Bhakta Bhattarai
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| Satya |
Posted
on 10-Aug-02 10:39 PM
Long ago when I was still young I supported monarchy as a symbol of unity, which is necessary for us to survive as a nation. Now I am matured and I know what is happening now. Are we better than countries without a monarch? Of course, NO!
We blame the corrupt politicians for all ills of our country. I think we should blame the kings who have absolute power despite the so-called democracy. Corruption, which breeds Maobadis, starts from the Narayanhiti. If we continue like this we will be wiped out from the world map. Monarchy is not the solution - we know what happened to Sikkim.
As the king and royals are above the law there is not any legal issues regarding their misdeeds. Dipendra was blamed for wiping out his dynasty but he was still declared king! Monarchy is farce!
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| ooohi |
Posted
on 10-Aug-02 10:42 PM
what does SeTaMaGuRaLi mean, paramendra?
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| reply |
Posted
on 10-Aug-02 11:21 PM
>>what does SeTaMaGuRaLi mean?
sherpa, tamang, magar, gurung, rai, limbu
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| Soleil |
Posted
on 11-Aug-02 09:36 AM
For the lummox in me, I just didn't get what democrats wanted to know at first. He did pose the question if the monarchy is needed in Nepal, then later on kept on talking about the Nepalese media shrouded in darkness, leading to confusion. However, this beast of burden came to it's senses at last after reading other postings that indeed democrats had asked "Is monarchy needed in Nepal?", and not the reasons why it exists. Why bother giving reasons if the question is hard to answer? As we all know, we all have different ideas and view points on the subject matter, some conflicting and some contradicting.
Now, let's get to the point. Is it the symbol of the stability in the country? It might have been in the past, but is it now? Did Nepalese always revere the king as the incarnation of God Vishnu? Doubtful I say, it is only after the Shah dynasty took over, the so called historians lionizing the Shahs, in anticipation of fame and fortune, tagged the king's name with "DEV". We all know the "Naya Nepal ko Itihaas" isn't the true account of Nepalese History but the glorified versions of the Shah Dynansty. And, by the way, Shahs aren't "pahadiya". Tracing the roots will link them to the Shahs and Ranas of Rajasthan, in India. Where they are still known as "Thakur" akin to "Thakuri" in Nepali. Or how about the fact that the Shahs, migrated from ancient Persia to India. Some might have relocated in the mountainous Nepal. Shah means ruler (the one who rules) in Farsi.
To Paramendraji, I don't see a reason for vexation towards the ethnic backgrounds of the people whether they be Bahuns, Chettris, Newar and so on. Aren't we all Nepalese? (It is poignant that those people have been ruling the country. Sad, but true.)
I do agree when there is peace and prosperity, the question might not rise. When the Nepalese people are educated and Nepal gets ahead with economical development, it might not be an issue like Mr Socio Issue says. Now, will these things come pouring from the sky? Can we achieve these things without wanting them, without rectifying the problems we had in the past? It is easier to blame upon them corrupt politicians; Girija and the gangs, reproach India. And how on earth we not see what the Shahs had been doing after all these years? At least after the so called democracy of "Falgun 7". It's been 30 some years and what have we got? They had been in absolute power, above the law. Should the corruptions of ministers like Surya Bahadur Thapa, Bhesh Bahadur Thapa, Kirti Nidhi Bista and so on be reminded? Or have we forgotten the transgessions of people like Sharad Chandra Shah and D B Gurung? Do the names Namita-Sumita sound so faint now? Was the recent death of that singer Gurung(?) an accident? I am posing these questions because these are the reminiscents of Shah Dynasty. There might be many more we do not know. Now, let me pose the question back. Do we still need the monarchy?
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| reply |
Posted
on 11-Aug-02 10:07 AM
Our present ruling dynasty SHAHs' were in fact 'KHAN' from rajsthan and they migrated to Lumjung around 16 century.
Kul Mandan Khan --> Kul Mandan Shah ----> Yaso Bramha Shah -----> Drabya Shah -----> Rudra Shah ---> ? ---->Ram Shah ----> Prithvi Pati Shah -----> Nara Bhupal Shah -----> Prithvi Narayan Shah ------> ....... ------> Tribhuwan -------> ......... -----> Paras
--------------------------------------------
Bal Narasingh Kunwar ----> Vir Narasingh Kunwar -----> Janga bahadur Rana -----> ............ ----> Chandra Shamsher ----> Mohan Shamsher -----> Vijaya Shamsher ---> Pashupati Shamsher Rana(present RPP Mhamantri)
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| People grow with age?? |
Posted
on 11-Aug-02 01:49 PM
Satya,
Some people grow with age but some don't...
:-)
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| mangal |
Posted
on 11-Aug-02 10:14 PM
Before, you wonder about whether we need monarchy or not, take a hard look at the picture of killer Paras. Then ask yourslef, do you want that killer as your king? Forget for the moment all other sentiments, about being a symbol of unity, gloriuos history (or not so glorious) and everything else. Just ask yourself, do you want that killer to be your king? If not, then we don't need monarchy in Nepal. They have already created lots of anarchy in the past and now!!
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| Untouchable Criminals |
Posted
on 12-Aug-02 01:06 AM
The monarchy of Nepal would be the great if they didn't act bad deed to Nepal and Nepalese. They are the most responsible person for today main problems. They ware Royal mask and medals, and destroyed Law, Justice, Security, Constitution of Nepal.
Dhirendra Shaha –
(1) Heavy smuggling of historical and ancient idols from nation wide temples.
(2) Rapist of Nepalese girls (both sisters) and woman and killed them throw in lake. (event of pokhara in 1979 )
(3) Smuggling hasis, gold and brown sugar (smack) from different countries.
(4) Blackmail in borders.
(5) Control over polices force and made it his own slave to police force, so he made police force as a criminal tool.
Gyanendra and Paras.
(1) Gyanendra – he is politically corrupted. He killed as much as students, teachers, politician, activist and his own Royal families.
(2) Paras – He is killer. All Nepalese knows that he kill to people and walk with pride of royal prince. He is a killer who killed to Royal families.
Today, We (Nepalese) are in this miserable, poor, untrustworthy, dignity less condition because of them.
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| hare |
Posted
on 12-Aug-02 01:26 AM
Ram... ram... maobadi haru pheri raja lai gali garna thale... kaile tine haru ko biddhu palaune hola...
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| jackofall |
Posted
on 12-Aug-02 07:38 AM
People like Soleil and Criminal.... are nothing but apologists for Girija and alike. They, too, probably come from some well-connected family who probably have Girija to thank for some cushy job that their dads have in some lucrative gov't post.
These people don't care whether or not Nepal remains as a sovereign, independent nation....they just want Nepal to remain a "democratic" state.....regardless of the cost. India is going to make another Sikkim out of Nepal if this dangerous trend of appeasing India at any cost by the "flunkie" leaders who make mockery of democracy.
Beware of what you wish for....you moght just get it.
Who'll be sorry then.
Jack
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| Horizon |
Posted
on 12-Aug-02 10:54 AM
Monarchy as a symbol of unity only sounds good in words. In fact, this institution has been working just the other way around. It is in the interest of this institution that we have political, economical and social instability, which will undermine our present political infrastructure. The recent dissolution of Parliament in the name of emergency is one of several actions on this motive. It’s very ironic that we still view monarchy as the symbol of unity even in lights of present developments.
Shifting focus on leadership, I can’t argue the lack of it but why blame the system just because of some failed individuals? We still get chances every few years to get rid of these people if we all ( voters) go and cast our ballets. These leaders, though corrupt, still represent and have mandate of the people until replaced. Do we have an alternative to Paras?
Since monarchy in Nepal is active much more than just the ceremonial Head Of The State and does everything but unify Nepal, I am starting to believe that we are better off without them.
We are talking Monarchy and Nepe is quiet, very odd J))))))).
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| pooja |
Posted
on 12-Aug-02 11:28 AM
i think one of the very effictive ways the monarcy has sustained so far in Nepal is by brainwashing people to think that the stabilty and unity of the country depends on it. I dont htink any other republic int he world has been less stronger or less unified because there was no king..we are not better off in this world because of the kings..infact the amount of money we spend on feeding and taking care of and making the lives full of luxury of these people we could be spending on feeding poor farmers and putting it into education and health in Nepal...a lot of older people also think that the king and his family is Vishnu and his avatar..but we as a new gewneration of non susperstitious people need to educate not just give in to their superstition.
Its about time the monarchy no longer existed in Nepal specially not murderous liltle punks like Paras...drunk driving murderer!!!
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| bideshi |
Posted
on 12-Aug-02 11:50 AM
ok ok guys,
I also don't want king like paras,don't like girije or deuba or not even madhav nepal or bam dev gautam to be the president! Oops- forgot to say,how can I accept those damn people like babu ram bhattarai and prachanda.So,who do we want to lead our country????????????WHO??????????????????
It's a big question.We neplease r always confused because we have never seen anyone who is patriotic and working like -FOR THE PEOPLE,BY THE PEOPLE AND TO THE PEOPLE)but they r like for their family,by their chamcha haru and to themselves.
So like everyone else I am also confused.Do I want king to rule the country who think of himeself and his family?Do I want Congress,Communist or other leaders to rule the country who fights for the power,money and for their families but not for people?Or do I want maobadis who r destructive and among their works ,i have one eg.they send their kids to foreign countries to study but don't allow neplease kids to go to boarding school?
So who do I want to rule over the country?I don't know.MAybe u guys don't know too unless u guys have connections to one of the parties or to the king .As in Nepal tyahi chalchha tyahi chha.
OR MAYBE NEW NAVAYUBRAJ TO SUCCEED GYANENDRA!MAY BE ! BUT KHAI K HO K HO!
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| Key of Problems of Nepal |
Posted
on 12-Aug-02 12:38 PM
Some Main Key of the problems of Nepalese.
(1) Not able to understand fully and deeply.
(2) Ethically corrupted and selfish mind.
(3) Living in punk socio-life and Hollywood and Bollywood culture.
(4) Eat "Gundrunk and Chiura" and wear Levis, Nike shoe.
(5) Talks about Democracy, Dignity, Human Right and country development, but family root deeply involved in the top corrupted activities in past and current time.
I was at Govt service in Pokhara for 6 years.
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| Nams |
Posted
on 12-Aug-02 12:56 PM
Untouchable Criminals.
I am with u in this issue. If the people start abusing their power then they should be punished no matter what title they hold. There seems to be no rules and regulations for the people with money and title. When Paras killed the singer some kind of action was needed but NO...nothing was done. Even after the massacre, if Paras and Gyanandra were not guilty why didn't they hire someone to find out more about the killing. I mean the person who killed Dipendra is still unknown and the kind of drugs he used that day is still a mystery. I know the other guys..madav nepal and girija are no better..all they want is power! So basically, the two options we have (royalities and politicians) both are corrupted ..god help the people!
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| janta |
Posted
on 12-Aug-02 01:34 PM
This is a very important question brought by Democrats. Especially when whole country is burning and we are trying to find out peaceful resolution and at same time root of the causes of this big mess. Where it started from and who and which elements are the causes? Let me clear myself first before I put forward my points here, whatever could the reasons or justify Maoist are trying to come up with about killing innocent peoples and destroying country infrastructure is not peoples movement neither it will establish people’s government.
The question here is do we need Monarchy in Nepal or not? And my short answer is NO we don’t. Lets first talk about importance of having Monarchy and its benefits to people of Nepal. NONE ZERO. Besides telling people it’s the symbol of Unity and Nationality and our country can’t afford to get rid of this the only oldest institution survive so long since birth of our country is BIG BULLSHIT. Point is what we have got from the oldest institution so far? After 250 years we are the poorest people in the world. Look at the history of Shah Dynasty, day after Prithvi Narayan Shah died Shah family has started conspiracy against each other’s. This has been adopted as a culture and transfer in to Nepali people and society in order to keep their own absolute power and rob the country. We have got nothing other than instability, illiteracy, starve and conspiracy theory from this so-called King and its CHAMCHE. Lets think my friends how come any pr-minister in our country has not completed its term in Office? From Panchayat to until now. DARBAR never want to establish stable political system and power, which will represent people of Nepal. And top of that they got freaking ROYAL NEPAL ARMY loyalty which is always threat to anybody who will try to do good for the country or speak against its cruel intention.
I can’t believe that we are keeping this Monarchy with this huge salary without tax. We do not have money to build schools and Hospitals but still begging else where to feed this white elephant. As everybody knows the current First family history so I do not want to go there. I am so disguise with shameful history of this Monarchy and still we are saying this is the only institution represents the unity of People and symbol of Nationality. Tribhuvan had left the country with his whole family. He didn’t left the country in order to overthrow Ranas but wanted to save his ass and leave country but somehow Gyanendra left out as Home alone kid.
At last, I would like to say we have to open our eyes and try to see clearly. We do not want to be RAITI anymore. There is not anybody so far who can come forward and lead The Republic of Nepal or credibility to become President but never say never. As long as Monarchy will exit in Nepal, political turmoil will stay as it is because they will never let it be stable other wise they will not be able to rob the country on name of national symbol.
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| HT |
Posted
on 12-Aug-02 01:46 PM
I agree with all those who think Moanrchy is an archaic institution that needs to go. I find it funny when people say the Monarchy is a sybol of "peace and stability". Most political movements and agitations in Nepal in the last 50 years have either directly or indirectly been against the King. So how can such a King be a symbol of stability?
I also think it is ludicrous that the Monarchy is looked as an icon of Nepalese nationalism and elected officials are called traitors or "loyal to India" as one poster alleged. I think we need to look objectively at history here - who signed the 1965 Arms accord with India that requires - my goodness its hard to believe - India's permision for Nepal to import arms? Was it the unpatriotic Congress? No. The corrupt UML. No. It was none other than the great "patriot" King Mahendra and the Panchayat system that did that. Those Monarchists who question the patriotism of others need to look in the mirror first.
And the politicians are all "mafias and goondas"? I would agree if you added Paras and Gyanendra to the list. Gyanendra has the dubious distinction of having pioneered commison-tantra in Nepal with the purchase of RNAC boeing 757s in the mid-80s. How can we expect such a person to deliver us from the "evils of democracy"?
Whats more if the King really loved his country and its people why does he treat them like his servants? The King does not shake the hands of Nepalese - would doing so make him little? While the King is very happy to shake the hands of Indians and other foreigners, alas, poor Nepalese get meneal treatment from their own King. While shaking hands is just a small example of Royal whims, the bigger point here is the Monarchy is living a hundred years behind the times and is the source of conservative, fuedal and anti-progressive thinking.
I think Monarchy in Nepal is on it's way out and it is only a matter of time before the country sees the end of this institution. I think such cahnge will be a change for the better. And yes, i would rather see an elected President Koirala or a President Nepal or a President Thapa who I can vote out in an election rather that an unlected, unaccountable, drunken killer King Paras.
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| paramendra |
Posted
on 12-Aug-02 01:48 PM
I have read all messages on this thread, and I am impressed by how little superstition the participants harbor. Most seem to be taking one hard look at the royal palace and seem to not like what they see. Stability, divinity, unity? Hollow emblems.
If the mood on this board were to spread in the country at-large, how do you think the change could be made? Will there be a parliamentary party/leader who will put it on its/his/her plank, and implement the change through a two-thirds vote in the Pratinidhi Sabha? Or will this possible change require a rewriting of the constitution itself? If so, how would one go about that?
Do you think this mood will spread? Now? Ever? How long before it does?
Will the change be peaceful? As in, heated debates, yes, a momentous election, yes, a tough vote in the parliament, yes, but no violence in the streets?
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| Democrats |
Posted
on 12-Aug-02 04:34 PM
The reason we felt compelled to introduce this topic is that the media has been thoroughly silenced on the matter and people in general seem to have forgotten all the malfacences of the Palace. What is particularly disturbing is that we come across countless scathing remarks and critiques of popularly elected leaders but seldom is our press in Kathmandu willing to highlight even a modicum of Narayanhiti's shotcomings. There is reason to be agitated over this particularly because the Palace plays such a considerable role in our poliical system. This is not a question of hatred over the Shah dynasty or the like; this is a question of parity. Parity with respect to how individuals are evaluated and judged. No one should be above the law, not even an avata of Vishnu. Vishnu is of course the Preserver in the Hindu trinity but that does not give him immunity with respect to wrongdoing. Our basic point is this: the Royal Palace MUST come under scrutiny. The main issue is that a parlimentary democracy cannot coexist adjacent to an insitution that it essentially its antithesis. It does not make logial sense. Do people agree with that?
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| nuts |
Posted
on 12-Aug-02 08:15 PM
I agree with paramendra's last post. What is the fraction of the number of people who no longer want the monarchs in nepal? 100, 2580, 10,799 out of 3 karod? if we (randomly) choose the last figure, the percentage comes out to be *sunya dashmalav sunya sunya sunya tin chha* (0.00036%). Alrite, now with this number of *mandate(?)* we strive to kick the king out of nepal. Good luck.
Clearly, I repeat, Clearly, The king and paras should come on out and discuss things right here at sajha.com. I wonder if (any of ) our discussions get noticed by any of the characters being discussed by us. Things would have borne (more?) fruit had anyone who needs to read these thread ever read it. Do the king, paras, Deuba etc( ........and the list of course goes on) even know that there exists a place called sajha.com (which if they (even) selfishly( self-ishness is a good word when it comes to reading and presenting ideas at sajha.com) used to realize their cons and their enemy's pro's would have benefitted alot in their strategies of governances, future plans etc). I wonder how many of those who ( i think) need to know about this site actually are aware of it. Since we are good at making assumptions, here's my piece of (silliest?) assumption:
Half the problems that exist in nepal would have eliminated if the concerned authorities (in Nepal) participated in the kurakani here at sajha.com. *eliminated* is exaggeration, *rightly identified and different alternatives put forth?*
Now, before i am called another sicko in sajha.com, let me get my not- any- sense- making- brain nerves outta here.
......I can be a translator for any of the above mentioned character if they have a problem replying back in english...!!! :) :) :)
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| HT |
Posted
on 12-Aug-02 10:22 PM
I think it is a combination of conservatism,favoritsm,ignorance and yes a lack of awareness for what appears on the surface to be support for the Monarchy. I disagree that the vast majority of Nepalese want the Monarchy at any cost. If the atrocities of the Monarchy continue to be exposed, I bet many more voices will be raised against it. I think today there are many more people than 10 years ago who want to see the end of the Monarchy and I only see that number increasing and not decreasing. While anti-Monarchic sentimenst used to be confined largely to urban elites , the Maoists movemnt has shown that many people in the rural areas have also turned their backs against the Monarchy and everything it represents namely fuedalism, casteism,conservatism, sycophancy, favoritism.
A close look at history shows that the power of the Monarchy has continued to weaken and the country has been moving further and further away from the Monarchy over the years. People rejected a pro-Monarchy panchayat because of the the atrocities of the Royal family and the Panchas. We then had an elected communist opposition and government. And now an armed communist insurgency. One would have to be deaf and blind to think that these are signs of increasing support for the Monarchy.
I am pretty confident as more and more people become educated,aware and conscious of their rightful place in society, they will question the raison d'etre of monarchy in Nepal. After all, when thousands of Nepalese donot have enough to eat, our King is paid a salary of approx Rs 500,000 a month. How fair is that? And we complain of Maoism being the by-product of democracy! The seeds of Moaism were sowed long before multi-party plurality came to Nepal. Almost every major dissident movement in Nepal has been directly or indirectly against the Palace. None of these are signs of widespread support for the Monarchy.
All political and social patterns that one can observe in contemproary Nepal point to the weakening of the Monarchy. Gyanendra is a symbol of a decaying institution that is dying because it cannot adapt to the realities of Nepal. With the Royal Palace massacre the institution has lost a lot of credibility and even left many of its conservatives supporters confused. I am very confident that we will see the end of this institution in the next couple of years.
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 13-Aug-02 12:15 AM
>We are talking Monarchy and Nepe is quiet, very odd J))))))).
I was about to sell my troubled republican soul to the devil of monarchy and forget all troubling questions for good..and then it all happens- a shreeganesh of a fresh debate on my jhandai jhandai bhaisakeko saviour itself. Am I not supposed to get my shanti, bhaneko ?
Thank you horizon for waking me up. Well, I am of course reading this thread with utmost interest. I am glad to see new enthusiastic people are starting this debate and slowly turning it into a brainstorming. Thank God, one liner gaaligaluj.wala.haru have not stormed here and make it go down the drain.
As you and other oldies of Sajha are aware there have been some interesting discussion on this subject in the past. I hope newcomer friends find chance to browse old threads too. I particularly recommend following two threads, for monarchist as well as republican friends,
http://light.sajha.com/sajha/html/light/OpenThread.cfm?forum=2&ThreadID=2722
http://light.sajha.com/sajha/html/light/OpenThread.cfm?forum=2&ThreadID=4654
(Since these are very long threads, it will be a test for your patience to download and a reason to complain to San !)
I am refraining from joining in yet, because most of the things I will say are going to be repetition of the older postings. Several new developments have happened in the country since these last discussions. However, I do not see any REALLY new thing happening. Oohi bakhra, oohi chahur, oohi pagaahaa, oohi gothalo. Halla matrai farak farak.
Just not to disappoint those who would like to hear something from me, I want to make this short note. I think the question of monarchy is not a 100% right or wrong thing. There are logic against it and there are logic for it. It should not be difficult to deduce from it that the future of monarchy depends simply on the balance of power. Everything else is just guff. Ahile.lai yeti nai.
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| Just a thought! |
Posted
on 13-Aug-02 12:35 AM
I agree that there was some anti monarchy feeling existed before the maobadi movement. As far as I know anti "shah" feeling has always existed after their rule. For an example I had a chance to speak to many kirtipuris about how strongly they feel about the loss that kirtipur had faced when prithivi nayrayan took over. The point I am trying to make is that there has always been anti monarchy feeling. Having said that I do not agree that monarchy needs to be blamed for all the ills of the society.
If you want to understand my point of view please look at it this way. How many countries are there in the world that is poor and depressed? What is the cause of their poverty? How is history responsible for their poverty?
In case of Nepal, Nepal was under "dark ages" for over a century. People were not allowed to travel let alone get educated. How did this affect Nepal? Tremendously. We still see the effect today.
The golden era in Nepal was during the Nepal/Tibet trade. During the lichivi period. After that there has not been enough of the trade development for the country to prosper. We all know that country can survive on agriculture but cannot prosper (in the context of Nepal where we have a limited farming land).
There is no way that Nepal would have survived without the monarchy. Nepal would have been a victim of India, China or god knows whom?
In the present context of global socio-political climate, the existence of global market and the presence of global communication makes the independent identity less appealing, and the economic supremacy is more appealing. In this context the monarchy may not be a big deal but remember that it will take many years for a normal Nepali to accept the country without the existence of an institution that will be there to protect them when the corrupted leaders go away on the next election.
Even though there is less attraction for the current king and his son to be the popular figures, there is still a lot of respect and empathy towards the institution, and people still see it as a unifying institution. Weather you agree it or not. It will not make any difference.
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| Horizon |
Posted
on 13-Aug-02 11:39 AM
Well Nepe, you are our Sajha GENERAL against the Monarchs :)))).
Anyway, here is an inside scope on Royal corruption. P. Gyanendra had borrowed $200, 000 from Himalayan Bank which he was reluctant to pay. The bank after repeated attempts, was drafting an assertive letter for collection. Then happened The June Massacre. P. Gyanendra became K. Gyanendra and Prithevi Pandey hastily wrote it off as bad debts and passed it through the Board.
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| Within us |
Posted
on 13-Aug-02 12:12 PM
If current Royal family were good position in the past and current, it might be good to have monarchy in Nepal. It would be one good example at internationally forum.
But the matter is here 100% opposite and 100% worst.
This Royal family is not only bad. They are “Number one criminals. “
This Royal family is a “God father of Mafia. “
Take a deep breath, Believe in God, Respect positive. Ask yourself.
You will find the Answer of the problems.
Our (Nepalese) problems are not far away, and solution also is not far away. We just don’t understand. We just want to run away from hard work and look for easy life that is the first problem within us.
“The problems and solution are within us, it is just a matter that how we behave and that makes us Big difference.”
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 13-Aug-02 11:29 PM
Oho Horizonji, malai ganatantrabadi.haru.ko Jar’saap banaidinu bhayeko bhanya ? Ma ta Jar’sap Kar’sap bhaneko rajtantra.badi.haru maatra hunchhan bhani sochdathe.
Anyway, thank you for sharing the story of the royal corruption. I was a little bit surprised with the story because I used to think that the royal family has amassed untold amount of money already. But what do I know ?
I would like to defend ganatantrabad going as far as pakhura syaharera maidaan.ma utradai. However, I do not see chintai garnu parne strong attack from our respectable rajtantrabadi shatru.haru yet. Jackofallji and Bideshiji are themselves confused about their vision for Nepal. Nutsji has a healthy skepticism and a really worthy suggestion. What a great idea to suggest our hon’ble prime-minister to read sajha threads for his education. It will be his real western education as opposed to the claim that he has already got it during his exile-vacation in Great Britain. However, their majesties’ education in Sajha or anywhere for that matter is of no use. Constitutional monarchy means their job is to do nothing. They do not need education for doing nothing. On the other hand, for their para-constitutional function they get education from their own gurukul (anybody listening ?).
Just a thoughtji seems to have some goligaththa to defend the monarchy. But one of them looks like a boomrang to me. In essence, he is saying that the purkhas of our raja have saved Nepal in the history, so he should be rewarded now. The other is a agnyastra named ‘the unifying force’.
I have a special comment to make on this widely used royalist astra. Dear republican and monarchist friends, please give a special attention to me this time. Because I have got a brahmastra capable of destroying the royalist agnyastra of ‘monarchy: the unifying force’.
Here it goes. I have heard many many monarchist friends saying this- I think/believe the monarchy is good/necessary/ irremovable because PEOPLE think/view/take it as bla bla bla. Did you notice something here ? They think so because other people think so. My dear monarchist friends, what about YOU yourself ? Is the monarchy an unifying force for YOU personally ? Of course not. Because YOU are a well educated independent thinking person na ? You are ta talking for those uneducated, backward and ganwar people called Nepali. It’s just for them. It’s not for you ?!?!?
I rest my astra.
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| Raghu |
Posted
on 14-Aug-02 12:23 AM
My few questions to the enthusiastes...
People vote and make national leader for the term of five years. Their success in the next vote depends on the achievements made in five years amidst struggles against the odds/hurdles presented by the opposition. What have the Royals done in Nepal for last 50 times longer period without having to spend the energy against the often fabricated lies and defamation by the opposition?
Is Nepal a habitable place for all the Nepalis?
If the Royals are really the icon of unification, why then about the same number of real Nepalis are outside of Nepal while there are more non-Nepalis constituting the population of Nepal at the moment (especially in the Terai)?
The institution of monarchy is divine. The millenial reign of Chirst on earth will also be monarchical in type. But the question here is whether the monarch himself is divine (called the avtar of visnu in Nepal) or a glutton swine (political power monger with traces of heinous crimes defying the constant wittness of the conscience)...
God Save Nepal.
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| HT |
Posted
on 14-Aug-02 12:34 AM
That was a good ICBM Nepe ji! The Ranas told us we would be slaves of the British if Ranarchy ended. And when Ranarchy ended, we some how did not become British slaves. The Panchayat told us we would become India's 26th state if the Panchayat ended.The Panchayat ended but inspite of accusations and counter accusations between the Congress and the UML, we are still not a state of India. What next - will we sink under the Bay of Bengal if the Monarchy ends? Our leaders have for long played the southern boogyman card to trap us into believing that a pluralistic and progressive society is detrimental to Nepalese independence. I firmly believe there is no other way but a pluralistic, democratic, progressive ,accountable system for Nepal to survive as an independent country. The threat from India is minimal compared to what could happen if we continue failing to clean the garbage in our backyard namely rampant poverty, the lack of institutionalized democracy, the supression of women and minority aspirations and the absurd wealth inequalities that exist in our society. Nepal will be an independent country for as long as the sun and the moon shine ( w.d.a. to Mr Rimal) with or without the Monarchy.
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| Just a thought! |
Posted
on 14-Aug-02 07:03 AM
Nepe,
I am not defending monarchy for myself. It is indeed a perverse way of defending your argument. The idea here is not personal benefit on my part that makes me wonder what do you have in your mind!
I do not agree that an institution should be judged based on an individual; I am referring to the unpopularity of Paras. I personally do not like him but this does not give me the reasons to defy monarchy. As far as Gyanendra not paying the debt I am finding it hard to believe and have launched an inquiry with the Himalayan Bank, with the insiders. I will let all of you know once I have the results.
Gyanendra is a far better leader than the maobadis, the corrupted netas and the netas that do not have an education or a vision for Nepal. The leaders that do not have a vision, education and leadership is what scares me the most and this is where monarchy comes in play. Monarchy is there is protect the constitution and the geographic boundaries. We all know that the congresi will probably sell Nepal to India and the maobadis will probably sell nepal to their "brother" nation.
The front line maobadis are there because of threat and lack of education. I know some of the maobadi leaders and their vision for Nepal which is very tainted. They do not have a vision for themselves how can they have vision for Nepal? They are driven by the idea of a revolution but lack the understanding of a revolution. Most of them are following the path because this is the oppertunity for them to make some dough, free sex, free alcohol, free hunting license. Isn't this a Nepali dream of sucess? Maobadis have accumulated so much money, that they can live happilily for generations and send their families aboard.. Do you want these people to rule? Not me no way...
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 14-Aug-02 10:30 AM
Just a thoughtji, I am sorry if I sounded like framing you. When I wrote in that sentence '..he should be rewarded now', that HE was supposed to be the monarchy, not you. And I totally agree with you that an institution should not be judged by the individuals representing it. We do not want to demolish Griha Mantralaya, even when our griha mantri is the most corrupt person. But when you defend the monarchy by saying Gyanendra is better than 'Maobadis' and 'corrupted netas', are you not contradicting what you just said ?
Monarchy has to go, not because of Paras and Gyanendra, but because it is incompatible with the process of overhauling our country needs to become, as HTji has nicely described, a pluralistic, democratic, progressive and accountable system.
I am scared of Maobadis as much as you are. But we are not talking about Maobadis here. The relevance of Maobadis is not more than the fact that they are also fighting for a republican state in Nepal. Are they also fighting for a pluralistic, democratic, progressive and accountable society in Nepal ? You ask them. And be sure, I am not befriending them unless the answer is unconditionally YES.
HTji, thank you for the compliment. I am myself impressed by your frankness and clarity in thoughts and vigor in arguments. I do hope you will continue posting your thoughts here in sajha and I and other fellow Sajhaites will be able to greatly benefit from it.
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| Soleil |
Posted
on 14-Aug-02 10:48 AM
Dear jackofall.....As your name suggests, you're indeed a jack of all, and master of none. Your inept and ludicrous remark just made me laugh. Not only you showed your vernacular ignorance, you also failed to see the point otI was making. I do not say everyone has to concur each and every words I orate, one can be equally pertinent and argumentative. However, it is not virtuous to denounce others personally just because you have differing ideas, with nonsensical and groundless accusations. I would have appreciated a polemic rather than your bigoted criticism.
I urge you to reread my previous posting. Neither was I being sympathetic to Girija and the gangs, nor was I taking a crack at nepotism towards India. I saw it relevant to mention them (Girija, and India) as many people were straying from the author's (thread originator) query. The issue was whether or not the monarchy is needed in Nepal. You missed the whole point, and you consequently went on to say...."People like Soleil and Criminal.... are nothing but apologists for Girija and alike. They, too, probably come from some well-connected family who probably have Girija to thank for some cushy job that their dads have in some lucrative gov't post."
My friend, what testimony do you have to account me as a criminal? What is my crime? For your information, I do not come from your so called "well-connected family" nor my dad works for the government.
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| Jack |
Posted
on 14-Aug-02 11:15 AM
Soleil= Gham prasad,
The criminal I mentioned was the other guy ....who came as "criminals like them" or something to that effect. You fricking try to sound profound and intelligent...you are neither. So, stop dicking around with moi....you are one of those holier than thou..more catholic than the pope..mr. know it all fcukface. You must be Ashu's alter-ego.
Jack
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| Just a thought! |
Posted
on 14-Aug-02 11:45 PM
Nepeji,
~The cost to maintain monarchy is not much when compared with the cost of preserving the constitution.
~Monarchy is the unification symbol (it is for me, and I am not related or have any connection with monarchy or government)
I believe and trust in monarchy than any other institution or leaders in Nepal.
Monarchy is here to stay. May the monarchy live long and protect nepal for centuries to come.
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 14-Aug-02 11:54 PM
Just a thoughtji,
May Lord grant you your peace of mind !
And for myself,
God grant me
Courage to change the things I can,
the Serenity to accept the things I cannot,
and Wisdom to know the difference.
Om Shanti...
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| Just a thought! |
Posted
on 14-Aug-02 11:57 PM
Nepeji,
There is no reason why Monarchy cannot co-exist with democracy and promote the development of the nation. The development and the social change in the country will bring change to the politics as well.
I am not against change but against drastic change. When the course of politics changes there is no time to go back.
Maoabdis cannot be forgotten during this discussion because they are fighting against monarchy. They do not have any one else to fight against, as all the corrupted leaders have bought the maobadis favor by giving them the money they ask. The maobadis are fighting to abolish monarchy. At least that's what they say. In this context should I consider you a liberal, a democrat, a free thinker or a maobadi trying to abolish monarchy?
I will be on a trip until next week. Until then have a nice week.
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| Just a thought! |
Posted
on 14-Aug-02 11:59 PM
Nepeji,
I like the prayer.
Thank you.
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| Democrats |
Posted
on 15-Aug-02 03:19 PM
It would be great to hear some more substantive reasons why we should or should not retain monarchy. We are not haters of the Shah dynasty nor of King Gynendra or Prince Paras per se. We are analyzing the institution of monachy in objective terms. Therefore we should try to identify those issues which people will give serious thought to. This should not be a springboard for those who want to get abusive with Paras etc., even though I would proceed to do that myself if not for some restraint, which perhaps is intelligent because we should apply our frustrations in a more manner. Please, more crticial comments are sought on this topic. We must not let this end here as this kind of open discusion on the Palace is prohibited in any public forum in Nepal but alas, not in cyberspace!
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| janata |
Posted
on 15-Aug-02 03:39 PM
Future of Nepalese Monarchy depends upon how it can cope with changing time. With a passage of time, It should learn to be more transparent, accountable, democratic and have respect for people's right.
If we analyze role of monarchy in Nepal, It has deep impact in Nepali Society till present and also for several years to come. There has been open discussion about 'Abolition of Monarchy' in British Society, we will have, of courrse, also more discussion about role of Monarchial system in our country in the future.
Time and World history has taught us that There is no secure future for Dictatorship like Monarchy in the world. Hope our Monarchy system will learn more from its past and other events happening in the world and make necessary change to be fittted in modern society itself with the passage of time.
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 15-Aug-02 05:12 PM
NEPE ji....
Strong arguments there! I agree with you totally. But what scares me most is the "hing nabhaye pani hing bandheko talo haru". The institution of monarchy has forged an institution of "royal" wanna-bes: the relatives, cousins, friends and chakribajs. They are the ones who mingle with the Nepalese populace with an elitist attitude and mentality.....this, I consider (in my humble opinion) more dangerous than the actual monarchy. The Nepali Janata are more susceptible to the exploitations of this other insitituion just because "it" not only exists but thrives at the expense of the common people, among the common people. I have seen them, been to school with, bumped into them at every other NGO or INGO or offices......and what- have- yous- and- what- nots. Yes, they own the world just because they happen to be related to or affiliated with so and so's third cousin-three-times-removed!!!!!!!!!!! It chills me to the bone to notice their general apathy toward the poverty stricken!!! One could crucify me for generalizing but, I posit that that this "institution" is the the offspring of the institution of monarchy!
...and my point is???????............the country could do well without Both the institutions!
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| Nepe |
Posted
on 16-Aug-02 12:04 AM
While Just a thoughtji is away for a trip, it will probably be disrespectful to reply to him. But I do not have anything substantial to say, anyway. I just wish he does not repeat the same discredited (of course unilaterally by republicans !) arguments over and over again. But I am delighted to see at least he liked my prayer ! It is a wonderful prayer, isn’t it ? It has everything. Courage for the republicans, Serenity for the monarchists and Wisdom for, hmmmm, bystanders.
Democratsji, I agree with your concern, caution and suggestion. When our democracy is in the emergency ward of a badly managed hospital, cyberspace can and should supply it’s life supporting oxygen of unrestricted free discussions.
Janataji has an almost compelling point. However, at this point, I would like to differ on the same basis on which I would say we did not do ‘binti’ to Ranarchy (what an apt word, thank you HTji) asking them to “be more transparent, accountable, democratic and have respect for people's right” in 2007 saal. We chose to kick them out instead and we did it for a reason. Let’s not forget that reason.
Sitara (didn’t somebody call you a new STAR of Sajha ?), you have brought up a very important subject. The less visible institutions and forces that constitute integral parts of the gravitational field of the monarchy is not less noxious than the nucleus itself. I was myself paraphrasing it as ‘para-constitutional function’ of the monarchy. I am glad you are trying to elaborate on it.
Let’s keep on marching. Let’s not deter by the silence of the lambs (I mean bystanders) or by the *serenity* of the give-uppers.
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 16-Aug-02 07:17 AM
NEPEJI,
Thank you for your comments. I appreciate that.
As for being a star........I choose to ignore the malice from the other thread. For a newcomer into Sajha, I am appalled at the poisoned tongue/s and reactionary disposition of people (esp, girls!!!!) out here!!
Anyways live and learn, I suppose! Nice postings here though.
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