| Username |
Post |
| Hahoo Guru |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 09:58 AM
Why this guruji use theory of Mathematics and physics in his posting? Sometime he use Einstein's theory....sometime very difficult second law of thermodynamics ..sometime mathematics dy/dx= .... I dont know how many people understand these thing. What does Hahoo guru wants to prove here? Do you guys have any idea? Just curious....
Is he Prof. of Mathematics or physics?
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 10:09 AM
My Profession: Civil Engineering
My Long time interest: cyber space tour.
My ultimate goal: to be webmaster of Kantipur.org and run one KantiZine
. deliver it to every Kantipur Bashi's home free of charge (monthly), with content
... exclusively on Kantipur City
--events and WWW.kantipur:: who where when @ Amarabati Kantipuri nagari .
My Motto: Lagera gare pachi je pani sakincha. Ghus nakahanu, nabiraunu, nadaraunu.
My Guru's suggestion to me: Work hard, enjoy a lot.
............................Make simple picture of complicated problem.
My current interests: a. French language b. Statistics 3. Intricate detail of mechanics.
4. Perl 5. Java 6. Psychology 7. Economics 8. Engineering Management 9. Photography
10. Partying with peoples.
Who is HahooGuru? Keep on tuning.
HG
|
| hahoo guru |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 10:13 AM
But how do you manage your time? Lots of posting ...all these your interests....
|
| Wow |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 10:20 AM
Guru pranam:)
Wow, guru, you are everywhere - from JAVA to PERL …Photography to Psychology…. And profession is Civil Eng and ultimate goal is to be web master. Wow…Wow… jack of all and master of all:) …LOL…
Your motto “lagera garepachi je pani sakincha” really enthused me.
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 10:22 AM
Dear My Clone,
If you want to know how do I mange my time. I suggest you to read
Bayesian theorem and 2nd law of thermo dynamics "entropy -- time's arrow".
Recommended sites:
http://www.secondlaw.com/
http://www.bayesian.org/
If you can understand these two theorems in maths, you can increase your
efficiency to maximum entropy. Maximum entropy equal to uniform distribution
of probabilities.
HG
|
| NK |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 10:37 AM
Gee!
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 10:37 AM
Sorry I forgot to write.
I don't read things to appear in exam and get scores. I can spend time
to one chaptor or word or even phrase for months and become master.
I read things to understand them in depth. Real meaning, and not like
that Prof. in our undergrad said, "entropy is measure of disorder".
I spend months to understand what is meant by the DISORDER.
Bayesian Likelyhood... All these terms, I heard in my undergraduate.
My professor asked me to raise my hand when I scored highest in the
class, where 50% student had to reappear the exam, on the thermo
dynamics where all questions were either on enthalpy or entropy.
Now, I realized that I did not know what is entropy, but, scored almost
100/100. Hahahahah....hooooooooooooooooo. padhai garer pani
score 100% audo rahecha, yasaile ma Nepal ka school ma Exam hoina
age anusar grade up hunu paryo bhanne profanity run garchu, ke
private party time. Akhira time paye pachi, tyo word matra jange pugdo
rahecha school ko padhai ma. Mukhya school kun ramro naramro bhanne
kura ke padhyo bhanda pani how to REFER Book bhanne jannu paryo k?
Get Finite information out of infinite ocean of information. I had spent
more time on finding the appropriate websites than on reading the
found best material. So, lagnu paryo, khojnu paryo, pauda ke paye
chahine ki nachahine jannu paryo, ani screening bhe pachi ta ...
Coloumbos ko Egg ho ni ta. Read few pages, you get the whole picture.
HG
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 10:39 AM
NK,
kina Gee! I wish I learn poetry? Tara geet gaune, nachne, poetry bhane ma
afu ta zero ni. I am not genius by birth. No Gee, pleeeeeeease.
|
| Hahoo guru |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 10:49 AM
Entropy...Damn!!
I hear this word in information and coding theory. Where entropy plays significant role to determine information and channel capicity. Well in my field
Entropy = average infromation content
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 11:00 AM
It is Shannon who named entropy in information and coding theory. Derived from
2nd law of thermo dynamics. Something is called "information" only when its disorderly
item. ... bhitra ... gayo bhane balla thaha huncha kina "DISORDER" bhane ko
bhanera ra "DISORDER = Information".... When everyone pass you same statement
e.g. news clip, that is not information anymore, but, new news clip "DISORDER"
is an information to you. When everyone get it, then, the news clip does not
have lateral flow. Entropy is equal to /////////////?
HG
|
| DWI |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 12:53 PM
Thanks for bringing up the point about ENTROPY.
I treat this subject as the most sacred one and hope no body misuses or mis-interprets it.
Why sacred? I believe it has every thing to do with the creation of universe, creation of living being and my theory: end of the universe.
I will post more on this subject. By the way I meant the entropy in Thermodynamics term.. you know state of chaos in layman term. Time arrow (like 2nd law) as Hahoo pointed out or q/t in equation.
|
| Naresh Karki |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 01:25 PM
Here comes something from my profession. Being an electrical engineering what entropy means for me is an information content in a message or sequence. It is releated to the probability. High probability means zero entropy.e.g . if somebody says earth rotates sun here entropy is zero coz it is message of probability 1.
Thanks Hahoo Guruji for letting us know relationship between second law of thermodynamics and Shannon information theory. Today I came to know that this great coding theory is derived from second law of thermodynamics...very interesting.... I think it is very interesting subject to discuss more. Analogy of DISODRER in thermodynamics and INFORMATION CONTENT in communication is interesting as well.
Entropy for binary sequence
H (x) = -(Sigma p(x) log2 p(x)) bits per second
Where H(x) = Entropy
P(x) = probability of sequence
Naresh Karki
Baltimore
|
| DWI |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 01:32 PM
We both are from same profession, Naresh, But I look it more in thermodynamical manner. I like your analogy and the widely accepted definition of Entropy as connected to Probability. But I take entropy as the measure of chaos in Energy, taking in account both System and surrounding.
As I said earlier, how it governs the fundamental laws of Physics..I will write more as soon as I have enough time on my hand. But keep the discussion moving, I want to learn more about this subject from different perspectives.
|
| Hahoo guru |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 05:09 PM
Naresh, DWI and Hahoo Guru Nepal ko scientist haru ho ke kya ho??? Is this same Naresh Karki who used to advocate porn releated materials???????????
|
| Logical Sense |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 05:42 PM
HahooGuruji, thanks for enlighting with your entropy logics!
Here is a challenge for you and others. This is more like a general knowledge rather than big science.... Here it goes.
How do you think a 'Riksaw' makes a turn?
Easy answer: The riksaw puller uses the handle to go right or left? Wrong? There has to be some thing happening in the real wheels before the rear wheels follow the front single wheel. There is not much mechanics in there, very simple. Think Think Think.
If you know the answer, don't give away fast, give hints to others to enjoy!!!!!
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 06:54 PM
In understanding ENTROPY / Information and its real meaning, we need to
understand
1.System and surrounding.
2. spontanous and non-spontanous events
3. Source and sink
4. Times Arrow (= entropy ) physical meaning of Time or an event.
5. Uniform and non-uniform (order and disorder)
6. ...
If you are dealing with Laplace equation, the Entropy can explained
very roughly ( to start to have a first feeling on Entropy) equal to
the energy gradient:
1. Heat flows from High temperature to low: dq/dT
Hot pan losses heat by lowers its temperature as time passes.
While room gains the temperature and has more energy, and if
you open the freeze, the room losses the temerature and freeze
(refrigator) gains the temeprature .... thus heat keep on flowing
to bodies that have lower temerature and one day when the temerture
of universe approaches to -273 deg C (0 deg. K), the universe
ceases to offer events, and no events equal to NO Information,
no news.
So, most important thing here is System and Surrounding,
whether you include HOT PAN and ROOM, you include
HOT PAN, ROOM, and later opened Refrigator, and ....
(Source and Sink .... stuffs).
(opposite is not spontanous event, thus, we have to have stove or
gas burner to bring back the cool pan to make it hot pan)
2. In civil eng. in Ground water flow : water flows from higher
head (spontanous even) to lower head. Well, opposite is also possible, by applying
the pump (an non-spontanous event)
.....
Entropy is such a great word: its like Agni Astra, you can explain universe
and you can explain the division of Nepali Congress and you can even
explain whether Sajha.com can go further or will stop one day.
We discuss here because everyone out here has special characteristics
and we want to "dessiminate information" we own.
..
Our undergraduate professor explained us Entropy just in a mathematical
form, so that I was able to score almost 100, but, today I feel its so vast,
that I really don't understand its intricate details.
For common people what is Entropy (no heat, no information channel, but, just
in simple word: very rough idea):
So, learning process goes on as long as Entropy is high (i.e. until you know everything).. Thats why kids have high entropy and high pace of reading it.
When they complete exams, will a kid read the same book, NO, because
s/he knows what is in that particular grade, and you have to ask him/her to
move to upper grade, buy books and offer it to read. Its new system and
surrounding, thus, new Entropy. Offering a new book to kid is equal to
heating a cold pan, and letting it distribute heat to room. I think this much
is enough. Entropy is always positive, and its example is
1. New book offers interest to read book by kids.
2. A 3rd grade student, will not read 2nd grade book (he will not have any
new information. Because the kid has all information that book had, thus,
entropy was 0 on the day exam was over).
3. A 2nd grade student can not write a book of 3rd grade, because he does not
know the information required to write 3rd grade book. Thus -ve entropy
is not possible. Well, if you give special lesson to the kid and ask a book to
write for third, that special lesson is called non-spontanous even. Again
it offer positive entropy. So, Janne byakti lai matra najanne lai sikauna sakcha,
opposite is not true. Aghi najjane byakti lai secretly sikaidiyo bhane, tyo pahillo
janne bhanne le pani tyo najanne bhaneka ko kura suncha. Example, we
probably know Sc. better than our primary school teacher, who taught us.
......
If you know entropy already, you will criticize me that "Stop it, I got it.
You have now nothing new". So, I am going to get new ideas that you
don't know ::: hahahah... I will be going through non-spontanous
event very soon, to make listen to me. ....
HG
|
| Confused |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 08:52 PM
Can somebody explain or provide a link describing Power Law.
|
| DWI |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 09:26 PM
Good insigt Hahoo.
However, I want to stress the point that although, Entropy can not be a negative, change in Entropy (delta S) can be negative..if only SYSTEM (not surrounding) is considered. With unspontaneous event, delta S can attain negative value..however when you consider the Entropy present in the Sorrounding to the equation..Entropy, as Hahoo said, becomes positive again.
To define Entropy, I would rather associate a key term: Energy with it. Entropy, S, gives the idea of possibilities of distributing the Energy among the motions of a system's microparticles.
Now the key point:
***********************
Our universe tends to go towards positive Entropy all the time. That means it tries to diffuse its energy hence creating chaos. That can be attributed to how the whole thing started, the sun, the earth and rest of us. There was a good article on Science Journal, published few months back, about how the universe started. It didn't talk about Entropy, but did say it just was a part of millions of possibility that just 'popped'. Why? Why if a system always tends to goto thermal equillibrium, then these things started in the first place? Simple answer: the nature's obedience towards Entropy, tendency to diffuse energy hence creating chaos, as I said earlier.
There should be some value for Entropy, corresponding to 0 Kelvin of universe, the end as Hahoo put it. My case in point, if calculated scientifically(might take decades..I don't know..), we could come up with that value and thus predict the future of the universe, not just our earth or the sun.
|
| DWI |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 09:42 PM
Logical Sense! Can I answer your question?
Hint:
All the wheels of the rickshaw shouldn't turn at the same time as one will drag the others. During turns, the vector of the force acting on the center of gravity of the rickshaw points outward, thus the rickshaw could flip alltogether.
Hey Logical, does it involve 'Differential'? Answer Yes or No. If Yes, then there is your answer and I can elaborate on it, if No, I will put more thoughts into it.
|
| Logical Sense |
Posted
on 27-Aug-02 11:19 PM
DWI,
You are on the right track, but not quite. Differential costs a lot and it is two complecated to be put in a CHEAP rickshaw. ' But you snatched my pebbles' that was going to be my next question. Later!
But, keep trying and just give me hint so that others also can participate.
Other guys/gals, on this I encourage everybody to think about it. The solution is so simple that at the end you will go 'Dah why did not I think of that?'.
Good luck!
|
| DWI |
Posted
on 28-Aug-02 12:34 PM
Okay nobody else replied.
Now that we agree that all three wheels shouldn't be on same speed, I can say there are three ways to do that:
1. Mechanically slow down the intended wheel while making turn.
2. Mechanically speed up the ...........
3. Use differential to change the speed of rotation of the rear wheels.
The second one is out of question as Rickshaw are strictly human driven, no engines.
You ruled Differential out, but remember that cheap differential can be made also and used in Rickshaws(I don't know if they use 'em). It justs is a simple gear mechanism and shouldn't be two large if you are controlling smaller axles as in rickshaws(opposed to bigger axles in Trucks).
The first option is the one I can think of right now. How would you slow down the wheels? Lets take left wheel for example, You can make a braking action on the left wheel which will be activated only when the steering wheel is turned. So, say you are turning in one direction and left rear wheel is to be slowed, then steering the handles in that direction will just trigger the braking action for the left wheel (the cable will be pulled and break applied).
Am I correct? If not the only thing I can think of is making axles of different radii for both wheels, which I don't think is done in the rickshaws.
Good question, keep challenging the fellow Sajhaite's mind.
|
| Logical Sense |
Posted
on 28-Aug-02 03:10 PM
Wow, DWI - you are very logical :-)
Just keep trying. All of your solutions are too complecated in a rikshaw e.g. having breaks etc. or will be extra work for the rikshaw puller (differential needs power my friend)
If you are in Nepal or India just go and look at the Rikshaw with a 'curious eye'. If not then try to imagine, 'how these two wheels are put together so that when needed they turn at different speed and in the mean time supply the 'torque' from the peddling by the rikshaw puller evenly when going straight?'.
Need more heads here? Paramendra ( Just a Gafadi or you have something concrete to show?)?
|
| DWI |
Posted
on 28-Aug-02 03:29 PM
U're right when you said Differential needs power..Actually I just meant the assembly of variety of gears that serve the purpose of a simple differential. I have seen such an arrangement used somewhere else to serve the purpose.
Problem is, Logical, I don't get to see the regular rickshaw here in US. They have tricycles, pedal bikes but I am sure their functionality is little different (one of the pedal ike I saw had two wheels in the front). If I could see the rickshaw again, I could suggest some answer.
If you have a pic of the behind of the rickshaw, that would be great. Otherwise, c'mon, let the answer out. Hey by the way, having break in the wheels wasn't that complicated solution was it? Its just utilizing the regular breaking function used in bicycles.
Do post more questions man!
|
| Nepe |
Posted
on 28-Aug-02 04:02 PM
Interesting thread. aafno xetra naparekole kehi nabujhe pani ramailai lagyo padhda.
I heard somewhere that the laws of thermodynamics can explain some biological puzzles too. For example, why are there two sexes only ? But I haven't have chance to hear the explanation. Any entropy Pundit ?
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 28-Aug-02 04:41 PM
When I studied the mechanism of wheel making a turn, when a vehicle
makes right or left turn in a circular curve, it is said that front wheel makes
turn using steering. But, real wheels are fixed with axels, not like the
front has driving shaft ... blah blah... to make a left and right turns.
The rear wheel has dy/dx very badly oriented (i.e. straight line), thus,
d2y/dx2 =0, that means it keeps on moving on straight line can not
change in dy/dx i.e. move along a curved line. To counter missing,
d2/dx2 (=0), the front wheel makes turn and rear wheel make a small
skid (i guess you understand difference between skid and slip) i.e.
equal to d2/dx2 of front wheels. Both d2/dx2 are now equal to that of
circular curve. Some bad drivers can not syncronize dy/dx and thus
make accident and ..............you know after that ....
Well, the energy all comes from rikshaw puller or engine via gasoline.
(Well, when engine piston moves, then, the bodies are elastic and transfer
stresses to metal parts, finally, wheels move because of the finite friction
on the road surface. If the road surface has zero friction, then, wheel keep
on revolving, without make forward move, and we call it SLIP, not the skid).
If the pistons are not synchonized what will happen? then, apply bayesian
function, get worst combination. That is called engine failure. ...
HG.
|
| Logical Sense |
Posted
on 28-Aug-02 05:56 PM
Guruji,
You are so funny :-) I remember one of my friends always used to put "Sinusoidal Curve" no matter what was the question. For casual reader that made perfect sense, seems your dy/dx like that to me ....
If there was skid or slip between the wheels and the ground then what is going to happen to the tires? How long a side show tire or race car tire lasts? They skid for fun (not turn) but not your regular car or rikshaw.
Again, there is much simple answer HG jyu.
Simple approach is from the fact that both of the wheels have to be turn at different speed and skid is not the answer simply because it wears the tire and lots of stress on the machine part and poor rikshaw puller. (d2/dx2 is fine for keeping the equilibrium between front and back wheels...)
DWI is so eager I am ready to give the answer since GuruJi also took a stab at it. Guruji what do you say?
Guruji, If you permit I will give the answer next.
|
| Gokul |
Posted
on 28-Aug-02 06:51 PM
Rickshaw problem:
I think the solution is to convert the linear velocity into angular (circular) velocity and that is obtained by bending the body of the rickshaw puller towards the required direction (right or left). This in essence shifts the center of gravity. Previously, the center of gravity and the line of motion were in the same straight line. Now, the new center of gravity is displaced from the locus of the motion. Let us call the angle of deflection as theta. Then, the resultant force is: F Sin(theta).
If the puller bends so much that his head touches the ground (i.e. theta = 90 degrees), then resultant force is maximum. But how about the result of doing this? :-)
Entropy:
The result of discussion between David Bohm and J. Krishnamurti is the book "wholeness and Implicate order". The concept of implicate order is very interesting, particularly to those who are attracted towards oriental philosophy. Here is an analogy to understand this: Suppose we drop a drop of black ink in a very viscous solution such as glycerine. As the time passes, the ink diffuses and after some time, it may not be possible to see the ink separate from the glycerine. He argues that "truth" is like that drop of ink. Of courses, implicate order is much more than this. What is interesting is that he has sophisticated mathematical models to justify this argument. David Bohm was one of the few physicists who sought the place of "consciousness" in modern physics.
P.S. LogicalSense, you sound like Arthur's friend -Brain.
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 28-Aug-02 10:59 PM
Hey Gokul,
that INK and Glycyrine separate form. In well order. (minimum entropy)
Mixed: Maximum disorder : (maximum entropy)
any monkey can mix the INK and Gly.. , vice versa is not true.
...
similarly, "distribution of truth" is also part of 2nd law of thermodynamics.
BTW, do you know 1st law of thermo dynamics?
If you know maths, and mechanics, you can make interpretation of all
complicated problems in very simple picture. Learn mechanis,
differential and integral calculus, and Taylor expansion to Fourier
series. Forget Laplace transform.
BTW, do you think every banana is same? Then, you can use Taylors
expansion, and explain f(kera + error)
error: sano-thulo Kera away from thikka ko kera.. all variations. You will get mad.
HG
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 29-Aug-02 09:03 AM
Lets move topic to some other area.
Air Plane has front wheel that its can revolve in z-axis freely.
The "steering" of the plane has nothing to do with its front wheels,
then, how does it make turnings when on ground?
If its connected to rear wheel (I am not sure about it), what happens
if car to riksaw have steering connected to rear wheel not front
wheel, what could happen? Of course, disaster, right. IF so why does not
it happen in Air Plane.
Mechanical eng. or aeronotic eng. can explain it? I want to know its answer.
HG
|
| Logical Sense |
Posted
on 29-Aug-02 11:38 AM
HGji,
I agree with you and created a 'Brain Lite' thread for this purpose.
First Riksaw: This is answer for the Riksaw problem. If you want to try on your own don't read next paragraph. After the next paragraph is thoughts for the airplane.
One wheel is attached with the axel and another is not (freely moves on ball bearing). So, the torque really transfer to one wheel, hence when you peddle a riksaw you feel a pull in one direction, unlike bicycle ....
About airplane (Great Though HGji): I don't know the concrete answer, but one of these has to be true (same idea - left and right rear wheels have to move at different speeds):
1) Non of the wheels are motorized they are all free and the force comes from Jet engine. Hence you have noticed planes have to be pulled back from terminals before they can go forward.
2) Few of newer planes can reverse on their own but that could be with the jet engine also or they have motorized rear wheels but all of them are independent.
You don't see a big axel between rear wheels in the plane do you. So, bascially it is not a big problem.
|
| DWI |
Posted
on 29-Aug-02 12:18 PM
Thanks Logical! Good one
I fear sometimes that there is such a thin line between knowing something and sharing it And Showing off. I try not to do the latter. I am sure nobody in this thread has done that either. I thus won't participate in this series of similar questions.
May be if you have any different Scientific/Mathematics/logical questions puzzles, I along with other Sajhaites would like to try.
Nice discussion, overall.
|
| Ekalabya |
Posted
on 29-Aug-02 12:43 PM
Of course NEPE, Thermodynamics does explain about the sexes in organisms.
Framed within the realm of molecular biophysics and biochemistry, the determination of sexes in an organism is still a very controversial topic, but there have been attempts by scientists in UK and USA and most recently in Japan, to explain the evolution of sexes and the Thermodynamical equilibria that sustains the delicate balance between the physical and biological world.
Most of the researches that are being conducted in the world these days have a norm of genomics as the Knowledge base whenever it comes to biology at molecualr levels. So,
You will need to have an understanding of the gamet formation and cell division first before we talk about just the role of entropy in the question. The genetic basis of inheritance is at the central role of explaining about anything from why Gays and lesbians adopt that sort of life to why a snake bites you. Talking about genetics and making a thorough understanding about it within this posting is not a possible task, but still I am trying to shed some lights upon your curiosity so that you will find it easier to focus on what to look for if you want to research or learn more about it. Explaining Genomics in relation to the Thermodynamical perspectives within this messege board is not a plausible effort for me, and it is a grave insult to the very field that I have pursued for years.( Since I have spent a considerable time to understand it)
The codons that code for the information to be transcribed in the newly being formed strand of DNA helix need the energy to move about the metabolic pathways. ATP molecules i mean.
Gamet formation involves the transfer of energy......the biochemical change that takes place inside the differentiating gametes does involve mechanical form of energy. For a complete understanding of how sexes are determined, we will need to explain it in the percpectives of the Genome. The sex chromosomes that we have inherited from billions of years have the information encoded in them that which resulting cell or organism is to be specified as male or female. The mechanics of cell division, Meosis, involves the change in entropy. There is this tendency in the newly formed DNA molecules which, in absence of no external sensors( Force in General term),will stop replicating.
I am not sure if anyone is going to understand what I am talking about. I will write more in this subject when we discuss the functions of Stop or Nonsense Codon and sense codons.
If I get some beedback from you guys, then I will continue my writing in this magnificently interesting and thrilling subject.
Adios
|
| Gokul |
Posted
on 29-Aug-02 02:30 PM
HahooGuru!
Kata bata garaun suru?
Chhoto kudai maa hamaro kunai sambandha chhain - tyasaile correletaion ko ke kura garaun?
Laamo kudai maa hamro gantabya eutai hola - tyasaile cointegration ko baru kura garaun.
Kahilai napugine, nachhoyine "Brahma" jasto tyo Asymptote
Sadhain harayine, nadekhine "Shunya" jasto yo singularity.
Tailor ko dhago jasto kahilai nasakine Taylor Series.
Ani sabailayi Ashok chakra dekhne Fourier Series.
Guru!
Jindagi bitaunai pardo rahechha khurukhuru.
Kahile ta lagchha "Steepest Descent" ko bato samatera swatta jharidiun ki.
Athawa probability limit zero banayera lwatta maridiun ki
First derivative zero banayera chupchap basi diyun ki:
(Na utaar, na chadhaab, JadBharat Jasto, Heri rahun ki ti maxima ra minima harulai)
Guru
Kahile ta lagchha, basera ro.un dhurudhuru.
Ani Jindagi ko Maxwell equation lekhidiyun khurukhuru.
Jindagi ko kunai grade(artha) chhain - gradient zero
Kunai diversity(change) chhain -divergence zero
Kapaal ghumayera kasailai khusi paarnu chhain- Curl zero.
Guru!
Yahoo online business ko satya ho bhane
Hahoo online busyness ko satya ho.
Tasmai shree gurave nama:
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 29-Aug-02 07:13 PM
Dear Eklabya,
As wrote in the very beginning that I got highest in the class of thermodynamics
but, I did not know what Entropy really means: intricate details. My professor
told Entropy probably in just 2 or 3 lectures. What is important here is that
you should deliver information on the topic that NEPE ji requested so that he
understands it. Entropy to a college student is probably one paragraph,
for bachelor its one chaptor, for Masters its volumes of book and for Ph.D.
or researchers its all books and research journal or conference papers to
reports. So, when someone needs information, and if you can not deliver
it to his level and need, and if you make following sentence as a reply,
then, that is probably a biggest insult to your own profession who can not
explain the knowledge in simple and compact form to the leve of the person
who seek information on topic that you know in detail.
Eklabya wrote:
"
Explaining Genomics in relation to the Thermodynamical perspectives within this messege board is not a plausible effort for me, and it is a grave insult to the very field that I have pursued for years.( Since I have spent a considerable time to understand it) ".
In todays world, if you are in biz., you should be able to explain things in just a
few words and let us identify whether your product is worth considering at all,
forget about purchasing. If you are poor in PR, then, you will fired out of the
PR section. Here, your reply to NEPE's simple question, (you don't have to make
it complicated that you studied several years), should also be explainable just
in a few words would suffice. I am not sastisfied with your too elitist reply,
"timle ke bujhchou ra explain garou, yo ta ekdam vast topic ho..." type of mentality.
If all universal events can be compacted and put in dictionary form, why its
not possible for you to put answer in few lines.
My Professor once told to me that "Make simple picture of complicated concepts
but not the vice versa".
HG
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| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 29-Aug-02 07:17 PM
Gokul,
your last posting is really interesting. I enjoyed very much.
HG
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| goonda |
Posted
on 29-Aug-02 10:03 PM
Just wondering if I can define entropy in my thermodynamics exam as Guru did ?
|
| Nepe |
Posted
on 29-Aug-02 10:30 PM
Aho, kasto apoorva ra sukhad jamghat mera tin Guruharu.ko- Hahoo Guru, Guru Gokul and the new appearance Ekalabyaji (Jaslaai guru Dronacharya banaauna ma aatoor chhu).
I just hope Ekalabyaji is familiar with HG’s unique style of putting things and so does not find his commentary uneasy, if at all. In essence HGdev is just begging more gyan from you just like I would like to do here.
Ekalabyaji, what you said makes all the sense, a little background of genetics, cell biology and development (of course molecular) should make it easy to understand what you are going to tell. I am myself not that unfamiliar with these disciplines, that’s why I dared to put my curiosity on that subject. I am glad to hear that you have worked with the very subject of my curiosity. Please do share your familiarity with the subject with us. Evolution of the sex had puzzled the great Guru of the evolution, Darwin, himself. And it does continue to do so to contemporary biologists and an Ekalabya of biology like myself, to give you a hint about my interests.
Guru Gokul, I thank for your poetic reply to me in the other thread. And this one, a mathematical poetry, is awesome, to say the least. I wish I were a mathematician to fully comprehend the beauty of it. Although I am not familiar with the rest, I certainly know about ZERO, except for the singularity part. May I make a foolish comment about that particular segment ?
Sadhain harayine, nadekhine "Shunya" jasto yo singularity.
I am not sure if Shunya is something we can not see or find. I think when it is everything except Shunya that we don’t see, then we “see” Shunya. Hoina ra ?
I am now enjoying this thread very much. I can not wait for more from HG, LS, DWI, Gokul and of course Ekalabya.
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| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 29-Aug-02 10:37 PM
Yes, you can, depending on the quality of your Guru's brain. If his brain is
dead, like the guy in 2034 SLC, set a question on English subject. The
question was:
" Write three lines exactly as it appears in Ghambir Man's letter". Whe we
were preparing the SLC exam for next year's SLC exam, that question,
forced us, to memorize 3 lines from each chapter. We (me any my cousin)
memorized whole Letter from Chapter 1, and at least 3 lines from remaining
9 chapters. Well, I passed the exam very well. But, that did not work for
my real world use. If you are preparing for exams, then, you should know
who is your teacher. What you know is inversly propertional to what you
score? (terrible Murphy's law). Hey, I am not telling you that our "Paschim" who
was in SLC top X, does not know anything. I am just kidding.
Do you know there used to be very good teacher in our Univ. He used to
give scores by deducting -ve scores for every mistake you made in the
exam paper. Thus, I got less than a friend. Why? Because he solved only
3 out of 5 questions, thus, he got -85 and I solved all questions, I got
only 75. Maximum score for each question was 20. But, the friend made
mistake only at three places out of 3 questions he solved, and I made
5 mistakes out of 5 questions solved. So, he got 100-15 and I got
100-25. So, you should stratatigic, based on the teacher. Well, we had
another teacher, in his subjects we used to write only Q 1: Ans . (dot)
and some space to write answer. And our seniors told us that this teacher
gives you score (50%score), even if you don't write answer for it, but,
if you write Q1: Ans.... His interpretation is that you must have thought
and might be very confused what to write, so, you should be given score
for the time you might have spent before you abandoned this space.
(this very true story).
I had a teacher in Nepal, he told me that you can not score 20/20 in Maths 1
and Maths II, eventhoug, I did not have any mistakes. My roompartner
who used to go to Russian Culture center instead of classes, told challenged
me that "hera, me lyauchu 20 ma 20 even without appearing the exam",
and he did. He paid 2 months private tution fees, Rs. 125 each subject,
and appealed to the teacher that he was very busy and could not appear
the exam, .... thus, scored bish ma bish, me only 19.5, and the reason the
teacher gave me was "you are not Bidwan in Maths, you don't everything
in maths, full marks is not possible for Intermediate student". Interesting
is not it? Same teacher, double standard, Money works. How is your
stratagy.
One more example: There was 2nd mid term test. The teacher used to hardly
teach us, but, we used to enjoy Chalk war, I guess you know chalk war.
He used to check answer sheets very slowly. Thus, we were desperately
looking for the score on the Maths subject. When I approached that day,
he was writing something in Black board and enquired about the day for
scores. He replied "maine copy abhi check to kiya nahi, lekin kahe do
kohi fail nahi he. Thik he na"
We had another teacher in same college..., he wrote a few questions in
black board and left to his own office room. Our friends got answers
exactly in the book. It was finally a open book exam, because teacher
returned to exam room 1 hr later. We copied everything from the book.
(one by one .. opened the book).
The teacher gave everyone highscore, me too. The teacher joked that there was
a dumb student (Ma chai haina hai) he also copied including: as shown in Fig. 10
(page 123). The teacher laughed at him and said, do you know what does
that "as shown in Fig. 10 (page 123)" means? He did not victimize, but,
just simple humiliation.
....
In 21 years of formal education, plus more experiences and affiliations with
teachers from primary to Univ. Prof to Univ. Presidents, I have realized that
being a very high scoring student needs to very stratagic and should read who is
your teacher, what he wants, .... .
More experiences in future as time and situation comes.
HG
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| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 29-Aug-02 10:44 PM
What you know is inversly propertional to what you score?
I think it shoudl be changed to
What knowledge you know is inversly propertional to the knowledge that you use to score high in the exam? Bidwan student get less and some even repeat the grade
multiple years. I had a classmate from Budha, he was brilliant, very knowledgable
but, he could not pass the exams. ....
HG
|
| DWI |
Posted
on 30-Aug-02 09:31 AM
Just to continue the Teacher's Bloopers:
We had this Probability teacher and he had handed solutions to all book problems. Then in the exam day, his T.A. who was supposed to monitor the exam, didn't show up with the exam questions. So the teacher came to the class, told us to do Question 1 &2 from each chapters 1,2 and 3. He knew that he had given us the solutions to them already and the exam was open book.
One of our Semiconductor teacher recited this story to us. He used to give same sets of homeworks every year(not anymore, after the incident). Then one semester, he gave a dude 0/20. The dude went to the Professor and asked why he got 0, when he had everything right. The professor said,"You have nerves to come upto me and ask? Well the solutions that you gave me is a Photocopy. And the original of the photocopy is what I hand out to students each year after they turn in their homeworks. You copied my own solution (he didn't even write it) and gave it back to me!"
|
| Math fanatic |
Posted
on 30-Aug-02 09:56 AM
One move very informative and interesting topics in Sajha. Great discussion so far by HahooGuru, DWI , Gokul, Eklabya, Naresh Karki and Logical sense. These people sound much into mathematics stuffs.
I studied Fourier Transform in some Electrical Engineering courses to solve complex problem of electrical networks. I know how to use it to solve differential equations as well. Mathematically I do know a lot about it. My Prof. told me it can be used everywhere. From sloving differential equation to Signal Processing, Image Processing, Medical Engineering, control Engineering, Mechnical Engineering. I tried to learn it and I try to understand it deeply. I know formulas, how to use it. But I feel I know just mathematics formulas but I dont know its physical significance.
Could somebody explain it as Hahoo Guru, Naresh Karki , DWI explained for Entropy?
Thanks!!!!!!
|
| DWI |
Posted
on 30-Aug-02 11:10 AM
Good question Math Fanatic. Fourier Transform is such an integral part for an expert Engineer, Scientists(especially in Physics) and Mathematicians.
I will surely post a reply if u don't get bombarded with answers.
|
| ke garnu |
Posted
on 30-Aug-02 11:23 AM
Fourier's series etc. are used in signal porcessing, in filters. You must have realized in your electrical network problems that Fourier series allows you to break down an electrical wave form into components of sinusoidals. Sinusoidals of different frequencies multplied with instantaneous values of the waveform practically act as weighting methods.
If you know a particular harmonic of signal in your waveform, say y = a*sin(wt), and you want to get rid of this signal from your waveform, you have to add the opposite of this signal to the waveform.
f(wt) = y + f1(wt)
Filtered signal F(wt) = f(wt) -y = f1(wt)
FT is used extensively in creating filters of different degree in processing voice. This allows an engineer to switch from frequency sectrum to aplitude spectrum and vice versa. What you do is convert the voice into frequency zone using DFT to the digital format of the voice, apply filters using correct frequencies (masks) to the spectrum and use Inverse DFT. You get the original signal with attenuation of noises.
|
| Ekalabya |
Posted
on 30-Aug-02 11:47 AM
Thanks for the participation in this purely academic activity to pursue some knowledge in order to enrich our thoughts and perceptions around our physical world. I am grateful to all of you for the invaluable and rare feedback on how we can keep going on with this subject.
Before I do some research on putting together the cascade of interrelationship between the Thermodynamics and biological saga in a more laymen term, I would like to remind you guys, not demand, to post the extent of expertise you have garnered in those topics.
If we really want to go deep into this matter, first of all we will need to ask the central question of the the creation and destruction itself, or in other words the central problem in defining our own existence and the physical world around us. "WHY IS THERE ALWAYS SOMETHING INSTEAD OF NOTHING?" Let's see if we can come up with some philosophical yet logical explaination of matter- anti matter duality of existence.why is there a universe at all? How could everything we see around us have been created out of nothing? when you begin to think about how the universe began, you naturally wonder what was here before it began. The obvious answer is ' nothing'. But what , exactly, is "nothing"? The best way to characterise the current thinking on this question is to say that nothing just is not what it used to be. For most of the recorded history, people have had a problem thinking about nothingness or vacuum- indeed, recognition of the very existence of such state is fairly recent. The reason for the difficulty isn't hard to find. Have you ever tried to picture nothing? I can't do it. I can see empty space surrounding something, but I can't picture the absence of everything. And this shortcoming of human imagination has influenced our thoughts about nature- scientists accepted the existence of vacuum only when the results of repeated experiments drove them to do so. But the acceptance didn't last long. With the advent of quantum mechanics, our picture of nothing changed again. Instead of a passive, inert absence of matter, quantum theory tells us that a vacuum is both active and dynamic. A bit of matter can appear out of nothing, provided that a corresponding bit of anti matter appears at the same time, and the matter anti matter come together and annihilate each other disappearing back into the vacuum in a time so short that their presence can't be directly measured. This process is called the creation of a " Virtual" pair of particles, one of matter and one of anti matter i.e. one of something and the other of nothing.
The reason I had to put forth this quantum stuffs is that, thermodynamical or entropy and biological process also couple each other and they play the same role in a micromolecular setting as they work in the universe. Therefore what I am emphasizing here is that any discipline of science is not an independent entity, some how down the line they get coupled, Physics, Chemistry, Astronomy etc, all eventually synthesize the world where we live and our evolution and existence in this Planet, or Universe you may call it .
Hope you all like it
|
| Gokul |
Posted
on 30-Aug-02 01:32 PM
Something on Fourier Transform:
Ke Garnu,
You are absolutely right. There are many types of transforms: Fourier, Laplace, Hadamard, and so on. But the general purpose of all is the same: to assist in analyzing and solving some difficult problems. Some problems in their original forms are extremely difficult to solve(if not impossible). The trick here is to convert (transform) that problem into something which can be analyzed easily. Let me give you an analogy.
Suppose you are given a mass of iron and you are asked to make a wheel out of it. How can you do it? One approach is to cut it into small pieces, strike each one with a big hammer, make round and round, and join together ang ultimately get the wheel.
Another approach, which is more practical, is to melt the iron into a furnace and by using a cast, get the required shape. This is the approach of all transforms.
Some Observations:
(1) The first approach is a brute force approach, extremely difficult, sometimes impossible. However, there is no change in the state of iron. It was solid all the time. Hence, no transformation.
(2)In the second approach, the state of the iron was changed from solid to liquid. All manipulation was done in this transformed state. Ultimately, the original state was obtained by cooling it.
This is all there is in all transforms. So some requirements of a transform are:
(1) The transformed state must be easier than the original state. Otherwise what is the use?
(2)We must be able to do some manipulation in the transformed state.
(3)There must be a way to convert the transformed state in to the original state.
(4)Finally, the effect of manipulation must not vanish once the system is brought back into the original state.
How Fourier Transform works?
It uses the fact that all curves can be approximated by the linear combination of sine and cosine curves having different frequencies. Just like we can have any colors with the combination of a few primary colors.
After this representation, the curve becomes simpler just like the molten iron.
Then we do different manipulations - differentiation, integration, etc. which are like hammering, bending etc.
Once the objective is met, we apply inverse transform (similar to cooling) to restore the original state.
All filters and processings use transforms. what transforms they use depend upon what they want to make: wheels, lock, nail, needle...
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 30-Aug-02 06:50 PM
Gokul,
you are write that we have different approaches to reach to our destination,
just the way we can reach to Nepal From USAvia Australia, Singapore and Nepal,
and the other route is Goto England, Germany .... Nepal.
What is most important criteria in selecting an approach that suits your need?
(a) Magnitude of Error ( b) Tolerance that you allow.
So, fourier, to laplace to ... finite difference approach ... all have their own
benefits and drawbacks. They are all measured interms of Error vs Tolerance.
Well, if we discuss the Error again, we reach to Distribution and probabilities and
Shannon's theorem ... and Entropy. Its like Sudarshan Chakra ... But, we have
our best friend i.e. Tolerance when all errors are soaked by Tolerance limit,
but, when its intolerable then, TOLERANCE is our ENEMY.
Simple example, "A" joins Sajha.com, and starts posting articles in various
topics. Some good and some very flamed. Then, he one day finds
himself flamed, why? Because either his unavoidable errors (e.g. my
mistakes in english language: beyond my capacity) distribution is extending
beyond the tolerable limit, or "A" sets tolerable limit (knows mistake: error)
that is bigger than the tolerable limit in Sajha.com, thus, get flamed. So,
he gradually learns and skips the methods/issues and try to adopt methods
that makes his postings within accetable error (i.e. within allowable tolerance).
So, Eorrr (depends on tool), tolerable (depends on the event/goal), and we usually
need several tools and select the tools that have intersection with Tolerance.
All numerical or analytical methods to Sajha.com posters are accetable only
when the error committed by them lie inside the Tolerance limit. Well, Pramendra,
Ashu, Suna, ANepaliKT prefer Freedom, high tolerance, but, HG says Tolerance
should be minimized so that it protects minorites. Thus, when you go to marketing
any instrument or any method or any univ. what you should check first is your
PURSE "TOLERANCE LIMIT", then, buy a method "TOOL" that suits your need.
Thus, for a Nepali a Car that needs push in Dilli Bazar ko ukalo is still a Car, but,
for a Nepali earning 80K in USA, "A car is not car when it has scratch". For HG
a write up is posting when it contains some words, but, for ANepaliKT a write up
is not a posting if its not correct grammatically, if its not understandable and if
its not relevant. .... . . . . .. .
(PS: Error and Tolerance were very difficult for me to identify when I was
Iron Workshop, filing a metal place of 1cm thick when it has to be turned to
a washer of 5mm thick with central hole dia 12mm. The old teacher was
angry, and scolded you still don't know the difference between Error
and Tolerance. Now I know that a perfect machine has Error = Tolerance).
Who is perfect "POSTING MAchine" in Sajha.com? My Answer is "NEPE",
that has no objection.
Who is most imperfect "POSTING MACHINE" in Sajha.com ? Those who
get fires and are forced to quit.
HG
|
| HahooGuru |
Posted
on 30-Aug-02 07:27 PM
I am "sorry" that I am writing again.
Hey, some peoples will ask me " if your purse "TOLERANCE LIMIT" is thin,
but, I need high precision, then, what shall I do?"
You read the first sentence in this posting, i.e. "apology", in mechanical
parts, we have "washer", in maths you define several functions
e.g.
y= f(x) 0 < x < 2
y= g(x) 2 < x < 10 . . . ..
so on . ..
example: you ask to you kid to make a circle. he will draw random loop.
you ask a middle school student (clever). he will probably draw a square
first and inscribe a loop inside it.
you ask a college student: he will draw hexagon (made of equilateral trangles)
you ask Computer science student: He will ask you what is DPI? or resolution.
(needs more information), and if you allow him to think himself, probably, he
will consider you ask him a draw circle in Screen with 96dpi. Thus, for him
ONE PIXEL will be the finest dot, tolerance limit. But, if he writes a software
that looks like aforementioned kids drawing, that computr science or software
engineer will be dumped into grabage, and will be turning to a truck driver
(provided he does not fail there too) with BA dgree in Software Engineering.
You ask a common human who knows what is circle, and how should it look
like as free hand drawn circle. He will first assume center of circle, and
guess a radius, and then keeps on moving his pen in such a way that the
distance between his pen and center is within tolerable limit. What method
he used i.e. Observational Method. He knows the tolerance limit, but,
keeps observing and modifying the locus, thus finally reaches his destination.
If you ask me: I will make first two lines crossing each other perpendicular.
Then, I will divide each angle to 45 degree, then, to 22.5 degrees (approx)
then, 11.25. Then set a radius, mark on the line s approximately equal to
radius. Then, join those points marked by straight line or approximately a convex
curve. Its probably a best method to draw circle and achieved : you can
call it a circle drawn by an adult with high school education in coordinate
geometry.
So, we can use "washer" when we have thin PURSE. "Washer" in
Sajha.com is "Apology" "endorsement of error pointed by others"
"not to make same mistake (intolerable) repeatedly". Those who
are equipped with these instruments, will be successful posters in this
forum or anywhere else in the world.
Don't use same Function everywhere, break it into pieces when your
purse "tolerance" is thin. Well, some others who don't use washers
but, have thin purse "thin tolerance limit", I call them HIGH PRIDE
PEOPLE "LAKHNOW KA NABAB" , will says "you should not have
multiple life ---dahi chiure manche-- --yastale ta sitti payo bhane
3 pathi chuk pani khanchan--- Pride, Dignity ta hunu paryo ni....".
So, don'T carry too many washers, and you will be called an unreliable
person, because, we are not sure when will you use APOLOGY and
withdraw you said before. ..... Optimize it. Use Shannon's entropy
equation employing Bayesian's likely hood method.
HG
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