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| Paschim | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 05:57 AM
Always a delight to surf Sajha after a hard day's work. Some people are talking of saving our country. Some people are talking of saving marriages. At this point in time, place, and career, I just want to save some fish. What follows is not funny, but join me regardless, and let's smile together. After all, fish is life. The Catfish Complaint The resort to anti-dumping action as part of a trade harassment strategy can frustrate development efforts. The development of aqua-culture has become central to Vietnam's development strategy, to obtain export earnings and provide alternative employment opportunities to poor farmers. One of the key fishery products has been catfish. Vietnam began exporting catfish to the United States in 1996; by 2001 these imports had reached 9 million pounds, attaining 1.7 % of total USA consumption of catfish. Even this small degree of market penetration irritated the domestic industry. The Catfish Farmers of America (CFA) launched an all out attack against Vietnamese catfish imports. Their first initiative was to claim that Vietnamese catfish were not catfish. CFA successfully lobbied Congress to include language in the 2002 Agriculture Appropriations Act that specifically bars Vietnamese exporters from labeling their fish as "catfish." Supported by five southern U.S. states and their very well-placed senators, including John Breaux (Democrat-Louisiana) and Trent Lott (Republican-Mississippi), the CFA convinced Congress that only catfish of the species Ictalurus Punctatus can accurately be labeled as catfish. Vietnamese fish is of the family Pangasius. It is now illegal to label such fish as "catfish." The Farm Security Act of 2002 (H.R.2646; now P.L.107-171) so states: SEC. 934. MARKET NAME FOR PANGASIUS FISH SPECIES: The term 'catfish' may not be considered to be a common or usual name (or part thereof) for the fish Pangasius bocourti, or for any other fish not classified within the family Ictalariidae, for purposes of section 403 of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, including with respect to the importation of such fish pursuant to section 801 of such Act. This is reinforced in the Agriculture Appropriations Act of 2002 (H.R.2330; now P.L.107-76) as follows: SEC. 755. None of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act to the Food and Drug Administration shall be used to allow admission of fish or fish products labeled wholly or in part as 'catfish' unless the products are taxonomically from the family Ictaluridae. Shortly after Congress approved the appropriations legislation, the Food and Drug Administration notified the seafood industry that food labeled as "catfish" that does not comply with the law would be considered misbranded. The agency recommended that the importers come up with new names for their products. The non-catfish fillets have also been assigned different Harmonized Tariff Schedule numbers. The CFA also financed a campaign to convince consumers to buy only domestic catfish, Vietnamese catfish were portrayed as being raised in unhygienic conditions; this latter claim was found to be totally false by a team from the USDA which visited the fishery sites in the Mekong delta. Vietnamese catfish was thus obliged to be described as "basa" or "tra". However, the new name did not affect the taste of the fish and after a small dip, exports continued to rise. This led the Catfish Farmers of America (CFA) and individual catfish producers to file an antidumping complaint against frozen fish fillets from Vietnam on 28 June 2002. The complaint seeks a dumping margin of 191 percent. Subsequently on 15 August 2002, the USITC determined that there was a "reasonable indication" that the US industry was threatened with material injury from the imports of "certain frozen fish fillets" (tariff sub-heading 0304.20.60) from Vietnam, "that are alleged to be sold in the United States at less than fair value". The petition raises two interesting questions: how will the Commerce Department and U.S. International Trade Commission handle the non-market economy (NME); and, is the Vietnamese product a "like" product? The case marks the first antidumping complaint against the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. What is at stake is whether Vietnam is to be treated as a non-market economy for the purposes of this investigation, which would require the agencies to use a special methodology in investigations by using a surrogate country as the basis for price comparisons. The law firm suggested that India be used as the surrogate in this case. This would not only make a positive determination of dumping quite likely, and result in the application of high anti-dumping duties, but would have broader, more serious implications for Vietnam's terms of accession to the WTO which are currently being negotiated. The question of like product also arises. While the laws mentioned above established that Vietnamese catfish was not catfish for the purposes of labeling, the "basa" and "tra" are considered a "like product" i.e. catfish, for the purposes of the anti-dumping determination. The Vietnamese exporters are reportedly paying a Washington D.C. law firm $469 per hour to defend their case, a catfish worker in the Mekong delta earns 500,000 Vietnamese dong (i.e. less that $35 per month)! This demonstrates the need for more stringent multilateral rules and S&D in the form of meaningful thresholds to protect small developing country exporters and new entrants to the market from trade harassment. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 08:09 AM
If this is not the articulate Paschim self. Such a refreshing article. So well put. It summarizes concretely my perhaps deepest desire for the Nepalis/SEBSers in the US. This is the "cure" to "brain drain," to me a racist phrase. Vietnam is a poor country. But much richer than Nepal. Trade talks. Global South. The bulleying by the rich countries. They are not implementing free trade, but trade on their terms. Let those brains drained away dig into this mud and inform us how they feel about it, and what can be done. Nepal is trying to make its entry into the WTO. True? Well, what's happening? What's the struggle? The current trade arrangement comes close to being neo-colonialism. People need to speak up. There is no going "back." Only going forward. There has to be intellectual debate like the one Paschim has initiated. And there has to be activist work, lobbying, non-whites running for Congress. Especially, non-white, non-African-Americans. I hope to come back with more later. Great job, Paschim. |
| suna | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 08:16 AM
Interesting article! Its one of those hmmmmmmm things and $#(&%#( that goes on in your head :). Paramendra, you mean to say no whites nor blacks? "Especially, non-white, non-African-Americans." :) Then how would you like the government to be run by Chinese and Indians? Nepali ta aghi pugney wala chaina, khutta tanna mai byasta chan. penny for your thoughts. |
| NK | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 08:16 AM
Bully USA! Is not this what can be classified as neo-colonism as paramendra pointed out? What are the chances David will prevail? And what cost? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 08:22 AM
The Catfish Complaint http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/world/asia/southeastasia/vietnam/ When Is a Catfish Not a Catfish?: When It Comes From Vietnam and Cuts Into U.S. Sales, Hill Says (Post, Dec. 27, 2001) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28136-2001Dec26.html "....It has whiskers and feeds at the bottom of rivers, but can no longer be sold as a catfish if it comes from Vietnam..........a provision in a farm bill pending in the Senate would require fish, meat and produce to be labeled with the country of origin. U.S. producers are counting on such labels to discourage sales of imported food.........."Not only does it look like a catfish, but it acts like a catfish," Sen. Phil Gramm (R-Tex.), said of the Vietnamese version. "And the people who make a living in fisheries science call it a catfish. Why do we want to call it anything other than a catfish?"..............Southern lawmakers are looking for a more permanent way to block the Vietnamese fish from being sold as catfish..............." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1716296.stm http://www.fva.org/200112/story05.htm I would like to bring in two of my articles into this discussion. I feel they are closely related. Bulleying in trade talks is racism perpetuated. The r-word has to be blurted. The Failure of the Global South in the Recent Global Trade Talks http://www.geocities.com/bhagat266/a/globalsouthglobaltrade.html In the recent global trade talks, the Global South has failed to: (1) counter the bullying tactics of corporate interests exercised either directly or through their respective governments, (2) counter the overt and covert protectionism as practiced by the rich countries and push for "free trade" in agriculture and textiles and have the rich countries stop subsidizing their farmers and sheltered industries where the poor countries might have comparative advantages, (3) forge alliances with the non-corporate interests in the west to place emphasis on investments in human capital - as in investments in lifelong education and health care for all - as a necessary accompaniment to free trade in both the rich and the poor countries without letting the same groups get away with their unrealistic assumptions about the conditions in the South, (4) own up to the elitism in the poor countries whereby the select few prosper at the expense of the vast majority, and define labor rights, abolition of child labor, and environmental protection as goals to be strived for out of self-interest rather than as pandering to the west, and (5) forge alliances within itself to recognize shared interests and better articulate and bargain for the same during the ongoing trade talks. Social Segregation: A Necessary Phrase To Understand Contemporary Race Relations http://www.geocities.com/paramendra/2002/socsegre.html Lunch counters might have been morphed by relentless struggle, but social space still remains segregated, as in social capital is a precondition to making progress, in forging relationships, in making and remaking coalitions. The segregated golf club, or the church, is today segregation in momentum. Romance along racial lines, it just happens to be that your best friend is also white, or black, if you are black. At workplace, the hanging out, after-work get togethers, just so happen not to overmix. Such are the seeming non-threatening outlines that belie a much potent interior of the social space as it exists today, and awaits defining, so as to see racism for what it is today, and to legally confront it. Change of heart is welcome, and of course the struggle will be social, and legal and political, utterly non-violent, but it asks for a greatly sophisticated understanding of political power, and how it plays out through various institutions, formal and informal. There is still rallying to do, but it might no longer be about marching, except if it mean marching in the corridors of power, so naturally as to almost appear casual. . . . . . . . . There is a need to combat internalized racism before racism itself can be thwarted. This thread itself would be a great place to start. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 08:27 AM
Suna: ".....Then how would you like the government to be run by Chinese and Indians? ..." I tried to get some volunteers for this Indian American lady running for Congress from New York 26 here at Sajha, but so far to no avail: http://www.geocities.com/ayeshanariman/ This is important work. Mohi magne dhungro lukaune garna bhayena. |
| Paschim | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 08:45 AM
Don't people sense ingredients of power, money, sex, ethnicity, humor, geography, asymmetry, dreams, injustice, poetry and gastronomy, all rolled into one, in this fish story? Just wanted to celebrate some Gaijatra in my own perverse, dark, satirical way, but I am alone…or are these just pre-vacation blues? Her Highness NK is crossing the Atlantic, I’m off to Nha Trang, and Lalupate*joban writes well, but knows too much unimportant stuff… Jay was asking the other day what he ought to do to behave better at school. The question came three years late, after 6 semesters at a little known place called MIT, but never mind, Jaya sir. My advice to you based on my own transition from a Bihari-style, anything-goes, English university system to a kindergarten-modeled American one: discipline. Ruthless discipline. Plan, time, organize, schedule like a maniac…just ruthlessly discipline yourself. A mild dose of Jack Daniel’s, some Deep Shrestha songs re-played ad nauseum, and a sexually inactive roommate (who just dumped his 5th summer girlfriend) are also necessary, but not sufficient. First free evening in 5 days, and I want some fun. --------- P, the questions you pose are deep, technically deep. I’m very much into the trade/development debates…I have been following closely (from a physical distance) with members negotiating our own accession into the WTO (Nepal just answered a few hundred questions at the last Working Party meeting, and will face some more, i.e., a few hundred, at the next one slated for 12 September in Geneva). Acceding to the WTO is harder than getting a date with Winona Ryder (or NK), but try we must. Trade issues are immensely complex (thus helpful if we restrain ourselves from making sweeping remarks like the anti-globalization fakirs)…but let me repeat what I wrote above in jest: trade is power, money, sex, ethnicity, humor, geography, asymmetry, dreams, injustice, poetry and gastronomy all rolled into one…Paru, pardonez moi, serious talk on all this at a more suitable occasion…The Scots have flooded the Bangkok duty free these days with irresistibly packaged single malt in all shapes and sizes. You also get free hats if you buy three bottles. But you need to show your boarding pass. And I always mis-place them. You know now what I’m drinking. And wearing. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 09:28 AM
Paschim: I can only guess at what you are doing, and what you are wearing (anything?), but I rest assured you are dedicating your evening to actively promoting global trade with your purchases for solitary celebration. Once you are done with the promotion, maybe we will get back to the super discussion you have initiated. Until then, rock on. Rock Hong Kong. |
| Bikas | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 09:38 AM
Bandying about charges of racism like that is troublesome, to say the least. It cheapens the actual instances of such things. The trade talks are racist? Don't paint the WTO with the same brush as the special interests-inspired politics of industrialized countries. There are plenty of people who believe in trade (and the objectives of the WTO) while at the same time decry the unfair advantages industrialized countries have under the current setup; many changes *have* been made, especially in terms of leveling the playing field in the area of dispute settlement (where I believe the catfish issue is currently at, Paschim can probably elaborate). But there is still a long way to go. One does not have to resort to charges of racism to critique the current setup. [I wonder what one would say about the incoming Director General of the WTO, Dr. Supachai Panitchpakdi, who is Thai, and the team he has put together: http://www.wto.org/english/news_e/pres02_e/pr309_e.htm] Simplistic treatments (Stiglitz's book being an example, I would say) does great disservice to the issue. On another topic, asking to support a candidate just because she is non-white is somewhat racist as well (in sort of a reverse manner), isn't it? Checking out her website, I couldn't find anything but bland platitudes. I supported Bill back in 1992 (going to Nashua, NH, to hold placards) and Hillary in 2000, and am what one might call "social liberal / fiscal conservative," but even though Nariman describes herself as the same, I did not find anything compelling. Just my two cents... **** Paschim, BKK airport disappointed me greatly back in July when I scoured the whole place for a bottle of Calvados, but came up empty. Was trying to build up a collection of less common but good liquor (for a decent price), but I guess I will have to wait until I haul myself across the Atlantic... And, oh yes, not finding ibuprofen there didn't add to the experience either (all they had was tiger balm!), given that I was suffering from a splitting headache. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 10:51 AM
Bikas: I hope this thread generates wide participation. I look forward to it. It is rare you will know someone at the site also in person. Paschim knows you, it seems, you know Paschim, Paschim knows me, I know Paschim, but I don't know you, as in offline, not yet. But then that is the norm rather. Racism: Do you think it exists? In what forms? "Trade talks are racist." That would be a simplistic statement. But part of the tenor can only be described as racist. Sometimes explicitly so. I once read this account of a particular episode in trade talks in the 80s. The Americans were arguing the Indians should do away with the tariffs on women's undergarments because "Indian women don't wear anything underneath anyway." How would you describe that? Are you insulted? How would you describe Paschim's example of the catfish episode? Is that not racist? Is racist only when someone uses the n-word? C'mon. Who are we kidding? And I am not an anti-trade person. My leftist friends at college used to call my "capitalist" for my stated positions. It is just that I am against unfair trade, very much for free trade. "Don't paint the WTO with the same brush as the special interests-inspired politics of industrialized countries." How would you, could you see the two separately? Example, the catfish episode. "....many changes *have* been made..." I agree. But not enough. Not remotely enough. "....the incoming Director General of the WTO..." I hope his background will make him more sensitive to charges like mine. But ultimately it is the institution. I come from a school of thought that says the only place for the World Bank, the IMF, and the WTO is under the aegis of the UN General Assembly. The Stiglitz book. It is a step in the right direction, I think. The IMF and the World Bank are fundamentally undemocratic in their dispositions. Would you disagree? I have been a fan of the Clintons. I guess we do have some common ground. :-) "....asking to support a candidate just because she is non-white is somewhat racist as well ...." How many Asian Americans in Congress? Why has the US never had a woman President? EMILY's list. The group. Early Money Is Like Yeast. Funds women candidates from both parties from all over the country. Do you think that is sexist? |
| Paschim | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 11:51 AM
Bikas, good to see you here; Phd sakiyo? You know where to knock if you swing by Indochina for your (Article IV) consultations. And Bangkok airport is stocked this month. Paramendra, the catfish dispute is not racism. It's local politics played out on a global scale. Vietnam got caught. It could have been the Swiss if they had sea. Having said that, was it Tip O'Neill who said, "all politics is local?" International law (and the WTO Dispute Settlement Mechanism after Vietnam finally accedes to the WTO, hopefully by 2005) is the answer for these kinds of anomalies. Your other questions need long answers. I need to go sleep. Perhaps Bikas can answer them -- he just finished 5 years of research on trade. On your earlier reference to "solitary" celebration, that was a major assumption :) Good night. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 01:13 PM
"....Paramendra, the catfish dispute is not racism......" That is interesting. So it is a mere accident that the former colonisers have been dishing out the former colonies in the trade talks! Serving bad hands. Outpowering them. "...Perhaps Bikas can answer them -- he just finished 5 years of research on trade..." That should help. My perspective is primarily political. I would be interested to know what he and his colleagues might have to say. |
| Bikas | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 02:38 PM
Paramendra, Can't remember when I first met Paschim. Perhaps through Nuru? I had already heard about him from my father, who -- not one to dispense compliments lightly -- had spoken very highly of him. When I met Paschim later, I discovered, that father did indeed know best!! Paschim... As for my PhD, except for some minor tweaking, it is more or less done. Haven't been all that productive this summer, having taken many (well-deserved, I would say) vacations. I am heading down to Washington on Saturday; perhaps I will come back up to defend sometime later this semester. Feels good to leave hard-core theory behind and to think about policy issues more substantively. Back to Paramendra's comment: I reiterate what Paschim said, this catfish issue is *not* racism. Look at another recent case: steel tariffs. The imposition of these tariffs has absolutely no economic basis; politics has trumped everything in that case (although, now the Bush administration is backing away from its initial tariff impositions). Countries affected by it range from European countries to Asian ones. There, the decision can be understood by looking at the vagaries of the American electoral system -- West Virginian and Pennsylvanian steel workers matter more than workers abroad. Same thing with the catfish issue. When Trent Lott is backing the measure, who is defend some poor foreign workers? As Paschim says, it might as well have been the Swiss; what is important in this context is not who is affected (with the measure) but who would have been affected (inside the country) without. >Racism: Do you think it exists? In what forms? I do not intend to make light of racism. I certainly agree that it exists. But my point was that, in throwing out terms like that in cases like this, one may devalue cases of real racism. > I once read this account of a >particular episode in trade talks in the 80s. >The Americans were arguing the Indians >should do away with the tariffs on women's >undergarments because "Indian women don't >wear anything underneath anyway." How would >you describe that? Are you insulted? Lacking proper documentation, I would regard this story as apocryphal (I am not saying that *you* made it up, though, to be clear). Can you imagine how the Indian negotiators would have responded had this been said in a negotiation? I mean... come on, they are not idiots, and they speak English as well as the Americans (some would say, even better!). Especially in the eighties, can you imagine how much ruckus this would have caused? I am always amused by many stories regarding globalization/world bank/IMF, painting organizations as evil. Having interned at both the bank and the fund, i can assure you that they are not coordinated enough to maintain conspiracy of that magnitude! as an aside, for public consumption, thought I'd throw out this column by Krugman published in the New York Times in early 2000, regarding one such attack (http://www.pkarchive.org/column/41900.html ). >It is just that I am against unfair trade, >very much for free trade. How would you define these two terms? And I ask this somewhat warily, since they seem to be fraught with misconceptions, and are things that could keep me going for longer than anyone would care! >I hope his [new WTO Dir-Gen's] background will >make him more sensitive to charges like mine. Supachai would say that many of these "concerns" are protectionism disguised as altruism. i am sure, however, that he would agree that developing countries' hands need to be strengthened in the next trade rounds, and being from the region himself, he would work hard to ensure that. But believe me, the actual concerns of developing countries can be quite different from concerns that people here think they should have! >But ultimately it is the institution. I come >from a school of thought that says the only >place for the World Bank, the IMF, and the >WTO is under the aegis of the UN General >Assembly. I strongly disagree with the notion. I would not want to impose the inefficient bureaucracy of the UN on anyone. The UN convened the Bretton Woods meetings in 1944 and assigned different roles to the World Bank and the IMF. There are boards of governors (which generally consist of representatives from the upper echelons of economic policy making from all countries) that provide ultimate oversight at both institutions. While I agree that voting in these institutions may need to be changed to shift some power to the developing countries, transfer of power to the UN would be counterproductive indeed. [There is coordination among these organizations currently; perhaps that needs to be strengthened, but that would be it.] (to be continued... apologies for a LONG message!) |
| Bikas | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 02:39 PM
>The Stiglitz book. It is a step in the right >direction, I think. He teaches at the same institution where I have been for the last few years, but still I think he is completely misinformed about globalization. With half-truths and complete lies (with a few libelious statements thrown in), I think he does great disservice to the issue. He is a brilliant theoretical mind, but this I-am-right-and-everyone-else-is-wrong tack he takes in his book has been dismissed by most economists (of all ideological leanings). One of my mentors has a review coming out in the Times Literary Supplement which eviscerates the book. [I think it also goes some way in arguing that one can be a liberal, care about people in the developing world, and still believe in free trade (and indeed think about free trade as a vehicle for improvement of their welfare), as I do.] >How many Asian Americans in Congress? Why >has the US never had a woman President? >EMILY's list. The group. Early Money Is Like >Yeast. Funds women candidates from both >parties from all over the country. Do you >think that is sexist? Would you vote for Lynn Cheney if she ran for something? Would you vote for Katherine Harriss if you lived in her constituency in Florida? All I am saying is that beliefs matter, too. yes, I do think Emily's List goes a bit overboard sometimes. In the recent primary (for the House) between John Dingell and Lynn Rivers in Michigan, Emily's List supported the latter only because she was a woman, although Dingell had years of well-documented service to his constituency including labor and women. He was instrumental in the establishment of Medicaid, for God's sake! Rivers' qualification did not even remotely match up to Dingell's. Was their decision to back Rivers wrong? Definitely, yes. All I am saying is: if I am backing someone, it would have to be because my beliefs agree with hers/his (if the person is in an underrepresented group, then "soon maa sugandha"). Okay... off to do some work, and then head down to "Half King," a bar owned by Sebastian "The Perfect Storm" Junger, to say goodbye to my New York friends. [Apparently, Mr. Junger tends to hang out there, too, looking dapper as always.] I will probably be able to respond again sometime next week, when I am settled in my new domicile. Bikas |
| paramendra | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 04:17 PM
Ayesha Nariman's message to Sajha: "Thank you for bringing this web site to my attention. I will look at it over the weekend. If you have some specific issues regarding the Nepali community, please feel free to convey them to me." I got this message over e-mail not long back. |
| blocKade | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 04:30 PM
czar, You are trying too hard to be cool. Even, I am noticing now. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 05:18 PM
Bikas: Thanks for taking the time. If you spent the past five years doing arcane work on trade issues, I am sure you must really have to restrain yourself from going on and on, but please do - speaking for myself. I would like to hear. Your background is important, both in terms of your academic training, and your having grown up in Nepal. I am particularly interested in these issues. And I believe they are acutely pertinent to countries like Nepal, no matter which way you look into the future. Besides, if you can not explain yourself to people who visit this site, what are your chances of doing so to people who deserve it be explained to him, people who end up rioting and stuff? You don't give me the impression you have had the time to look around at the site. But I am under fire along other threads here for proposing a South Asian economic union. "Desh bechne" idea! I am for free trade. Because that is the way to economic growth. And that is the way out of poverty for the masses. But I have my criticisms. So it is my privilege/pleasure to bounce them around with guys like Paschim and yourself. (Come to think of it, were you working on some kind of a travel guide for Nepal in 1996? If yes, then I have either met you, or have talked to you on the phone.) I just checked this out: http://www.pkarchive.org/column/41900.html “This case -- in which peasants were forced to sell their crops cheaply in order to protect the jobs of 10,000 processing workers -- fits right into the pattern ….. Its high-minded critics want to keep the prices those farmers receive low, on behalf of 10,000 politically influential workers and a handful of foreign factory owners …… anti-globalists, though they are quite sure that international trade hurts poor countries, have an annoying problem: Most people in those countries want to export more, not less.” I am not even going to argue against free trade. That is not my new position. But you have a point when you are basically telling me, describe “fair trade.” That phrase means many things to many people. Perhaps. Catfish and steel tariffs. Your description is apt. An organized group lobbies its elected representative into a protectionist measure that is unfair to some other country, probably one from the Global South, sometimes from Europe. Simple politics. Not racism. You also bring the good news that the WTO mechanism that looks into these disputes is an attempt at fairness. Great. The point you guys miss: (1) Does not Europe threaten trade wars when the U.S. misbehaves? (2) Can the Global South even dream of such a threat? That power imbalance is what I am talking about. What is your stand on the agricultural subsidies in the US and Europe. That is not free trade. What do you think can/ought to be done? Or is there a feeling of helplessness/fatalism? Ke garne? What I am saying is the Global South needs voice, needs political organization. To counter the sea of protectionist tendencies claiming to be the ocean of free trade. Trade is good. It is great. How else will the Global South benefit from the capital that lies elsewhere, the technology that is elsewhere, and the economic growth that will only come with trade? But unfair trade, like in the catfish example, is not helping. You say: “When Trent Lott is backing the measure, who is defend some poor foreign workers?” That pretty much sums up what I am trying to say. To me what Lott is doing is racist. He is overpowering those who are utterly powerless. To me that is racism. Because Lott is a member of a party that claims free trade is its religion. But he commits a self-described sin because he feels he can get away with it. There will be no retaliation. There will be no threats of trade wars. That "Indian women don't wear anything underneath anyway" story --- I read it in a journal somewhere a few years back at a college library. “Can you imagine how the Indian negotiators would have responded had this been said in a negotiation?” It was said in a negotiation. And the obviously the Indians put up with it. I don’t their ability for spoken English: the British never left entirely. I accuse them of internalized racism. “I am always amused by many stories regarding globalization/world bank/IMF, painting organizations as evil. Having interned at both the bank and the fund, i can assure you that they are not coordinated enough to maintain conspiracy of that magnitude!” The statement is kind of amusing. Made me smile. Excuse my criticism, but the defense is naïve. Reminds me of a story about King Birendra. I heard it in the mid-80s. The story goes that the King loved his country so much that he would gulp one drink after another and lament: “My country!” The guy is not even sitting on the problem: he is the problem, and he is lamenting as to why his country is stuck in all the cardinal sins of being left behind, namely massive poverty, and its many octopus limbs. The Bretton Woods institutions are a step in the right direction. But then need to be modified much more. “Supachai would say that many of these "concerns" are protectionism disguised as altruism.” My concern is not free trade, but lack thereof on the part of the loudest countries espousing it. “But believe me, the actual concerns of developing countries can be quite different from concerns that people here think they should have!” You hit the nail here. A message for the protected, brilliant minds of the IMF and the World Bank! “While I agree that voting in these institutions may need to be changed to shift some power to the developing countries, transfer of power to the UN would be counterproductive indeed.” Your criticism of the UN as a bureaucracy has some merit to it. I guess the UN I have projected is one from the future, one more reformed, more effective, more teeth. A UN that is no longer an object of contemt by the right wingers on Capitol Hill. A UN General Assembly that is like a global parliament. But I don’t see that happening – or the US letting that happen – when half the countries on the planet are not even democracies. At the UN, the US is one out of five powers with a veto, an unfair arrangement to the Global South in the first place. At the IMF and the World Bank, the US has total power. Is that a bother or what? The Stiglitz book: it offends those from the ivory tower think tanks and graduate programs who would like to keep the debate among their own closed circles. People who do not realize that their brilliant ideas/works are welcome, but those have to be subjected to broad, participatory democratic debates/discussions. On large scales. On EMILY’s List. I think it is a great organization doing great work. Women need to see themselves as a group. On the Cheney question, all else equal, I would rather have Lynn Cheney in office than the hubby Dick. :-) |
| paramendra | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 05:45 PM
Some references for the discussion at hand: World Bank / IMF Fact Sheet http://www.globalexchange.org/wbimf/facts.html http://www.globalizethis.org/fightback/ http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,762055,00.html World Bank and IMF reform vital to end poverty, says UN "....Calling for an end to rich countries' dominance of the institutions of global financial governance, the UN Development Programme says that decisions about how to manage globalisation must become more democratic......The countries' control over the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank must be reduced, says the report, suggesting an end to the veto rights of the five permanent members of the UN security council. It says the poorest countries must also have a bigger voice in the World Trade Organisation.............A call for a UN economic security council to act as a watchdog over the financial institutions was repeated............." "Deepening democracy in a Fragmented World", available at www.undp.org/hdr2002 http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/bwi-wto/bankind.htm |
| paramendra | Posted
on 29-Aug-02 09:38 PM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=World&cat=United_Nations The Summit in South Africa. http://www.johannesburgsummit.org/ Anyone following the news on the summit? "....deadlocked on wording such as "good governance" and "globalization" in a U.N. plan to bring the poor prosperity and protect the environment......... ........Mugabe, whose intellectual credentials and guerrilla war against Rhodesia's white rulers made him an hero to many in the Third World, has hit back hard, saying that the "globalization" of corporate power is merely Western colonialism in a new guise.............. ........In all about 100 world leaders from the nearly 200 countries represented at the United Nations ( news - web sites) are due in to sign up to a broad but non-binding plan calling for actions ranging from cleaning up water supplies to saving trees and fighting AIDS ( news - web sites). .............. ........officials are yet to reconcile U.S. and European Union ( news - web sites) demands for aid to be tied more clearly to efforts to improve human rights and democracy and insistence by developing nations that the rich states must do more to cut subsidies to their own farmers that help keep Third World imports out of their markets. ..........." I guess, kind of like the Earth Summit of 1992 which the elder Bush skipped as well. It runs in the family, I guess. |
| Biswo | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 12:20 AM
Paramendra says, "Vietnam is much richer than Nepal." Is that true, Paschim? I really think we are at about the same level. I also heard they recently had some sort of election. Dekhaune daat matrai ta holaa ni? |
| Paschim | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 05:04 AM
Just a quick response to Biswo for now -- recovered fully? Good to see you after a spell. Well, within Indochina, it's Laos and Cambodia that are more like us. Vietnam is better off (relatively speaking) -- its GDP per capita is around 400 dollars, literacy rate over 90%, and life expectancy almost 70. Our corresponding figures are around 200 dollars, literacy 40%, and life expectancy 58. Women fare worse than men in Nepal in all indicators; in Vietnam the disparity is less acute. In PPP terms, their income per capita is around 2000; Nepal's is around 1300. Overall, Vietnam is reforming, growing fast, and largely following the Chinese model of transition into a market economy. We've been stagnant at best. Their population is also 3 times ours. For the latest figures on dozens of socio-economic indicators, pls. refer to the "World Development Report 2003" that just came out last week. I haven't had time to consult it. On elections, yes, they were held recently, and they were as "democratic" as they can be in a one-party communist state with no independent media and civic activism, and no freedom to organize politically; but I'm told there was an increase in independent candidacies (those not belonging to the communist party, but allowed to stand anyway); and the voter's turn out rate was over 98%. If you didn't vote, you were not patriotic, and worse: you offended the long deceased Uncle Ho! More later… |
| Biswo | Posted
on 30-Aug-02 08:47 PM
Paschim, Yes, fully recovered. Thanks for the concern. Thanks for the info on Vietnam. I think they are following China's path : on liberalization, election and basically everything, despite being adverseria to China (well, at least in history). |
| Paschim | Posted
on 03-Sep-02 10:56 PM
For those of us following the ongoing multi-lateral negotiations on trade (after the 4th Ministerial Meeting in Qatar last year, called the Doha Development Round), some good news this 4th day of September! 1. "The new [Thai] head of the World Trade Organization took office yesterday promising to help poor countries enjoy the benefits of global commerce and to defuse disputes before they become trade wars. "Avenues are opening up for us to harness the process of globalization and help those who still lag behind to get on board," Supachai Panitchpakdi told reporters." http://www.washtimes.com/business/20020903-10821825.htm 2. "The European Union (EU) promised yesterday to reform the lavish system of agricultural subsidies and tariff barriers blamed for destroying the livelihood of rural farmers around the developing world. European Commission President Romano Prodi told the first day of the gathering of world leaders at the World Summit on Sustainable Development in Sandton that the EU "recognises the importance of agriculture for developing countries and we agree that tariff reduction is not enough. "Major reductions in trade-distorting support and in all forms of export subsidies are also needed." According to the World Bank, the rich world spends nearly $1bn a day on providing price support and export subsidies for its farmers to help them compete on external markets and protect their markets at home. http://www.bday.co.za/bday/content/direct/1,3523,1168293-6099-0,00.html 3. "The World Trade Organization ruled yesterday that the European Union has the right to impose $4 billion in punitive duties on U.S. exports to Europe -- by far the biggest penalty ever awarded in a WTO case -- because of a tax break for American multinational companies that had been found to violate global trade rules." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17979-2002Aug30.html This story has implications for how we, Nepal, can also "multilateralize" our troubled bilateral trade relations with India that has often bullied, coerced, or out-smarted us in trade talks. But first, Nepal needs to accede to the WTO (In South Asia, only Nepal and Bhutan are non-members). More on the legally binding WTO rulings and its interestingly designed Dispute Settlement Mechanism later (if people show interest). |
| paramendra | Posted
on 04-Sep-02 01:24 AM
P: Keep it coming. |
| tell me this | Posted
on 04-Sep-02 11:31 AM
paschim, scotch v. whiskey champagne v. sparkling wine aren't these the same types of trade issues, minus the bogus charges of racism? who first "perfected" the practice of catfish farming? what has vietnam done for louisianans lately? what has louisiana done for vietnamese lately? when's the last time any of you spent considerable time actually living in louisiana as residents? |
| suna | Posted
on 04-Sep-02 11:44 AM
Should only the Louisanaians get to fish and market "catfish"? Why couldn't they call those fish, fishwithwhiskers, or cafish (as they will!) and let the poor vietnamese call their's catfish. Moreover, should only the Americans be allowed to call every fish by its name and no-one else? BAHHHHHHHHHHH! BULLIES :) |
| oops, you did it again | Posted
on 04-Sep-02 04:02 PM
yo, montgomery county gal, if you've got what it takes, try doing a mere fraction as much good for louisianans as they have for vietnamese fishermen/women; then, get back to us. (sorry, owning the new britney cd doesn't count.) answers to your questions and exclamation, in order: no, and they don't. they could've but didn't, not that it's got anything to do with the price of tea in darj. no, they shouldn't and aren't. BAHHHHHHHHH! INTERLOPERS :( |
| suna | Posted
on 04-Sep-02 04:40 PM
Opps blahblahblah Gal?? thanks for the compliment and for reading my threads. Obviously you've missed the point, it wasn't me who owned the cd that keeps blaring in car: my eight year-old own(ed) it. Again, I'm floored by your knowledge of my whereabouts, hometown and the flaunting interest in the price of tea. BUT you missed the humor in my posting. Calm down mister. |
| top of the opps | Posted
on 04-Sep-02 06:27 PM
r, sorry to deflate that ego, but i don't read your threads. i just had some inside scoops on you and knew you love sticking your nose in where it doesn't belong. it's still summertime, an' the catfish are jumpin'. y'all come back, y'hear? |
| suna | Posted
on 04-Sep-02 06:56 PM
Nothing more to add to this interesting thread I guess so lets just revert to personal scoops. Pity how we keep doing it all the time. Sitara, where art thou? :) Brings back the same old point over and over again. Our educated males lashing out because they deem my posting hopeless, worthless? Wonder what would have happened if the universities in the west all thought our nepalese students to be worthless, hopeless because we are from under-privileged countries or south something as per Paramendra (I actually liked that Paramendra). Then we would have no Paschims, no Ashus and YES, YOU oh top of the ooooops! So read who may and write what you may but I shall keep on posting. And who, may I ask would be the right ones to post to this? hmm, another elitist thought? I love sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong?? Petty grievance towards me? OH WELL!... another one! Alas, I cannot make the whole world my friend. So we shall part - as enemies oh top of the opppppppppps! |
| Paschim | Posted
on 04-Sep-02 08:52 PM
Dear "tell me this", I failed to get your first two questions, but I assume you are referring to what people call Geographical Indications (GIs) -- Basmati rice of the Himalayas, Champagne, Sherry, Porto from EU, Tequila of Mexico, Roquefort cheese, Eger (Hungarian wine), potatoes from Idaho, Napa valley sparkling wine, Pilsen from the Czech Republic, etc. There are no overt conflicts (or racism!) in this arena -- it's all about safeguarding one's national interest on the basis of demonstrable evidence. Section III of the WTO's agreement on Trade-related aspects of Intellectual Property (TRIPs) obliges members to protect GIs that identify a good as originating in a specific territory with the product's quality and reputation being attributable to that specific geographical location. So, you can't grow Basmati in Texas and call it Basmati if you want to play by the trade rules (they tried calling it Texmati and it didn't sell). GIs differ from trademarks -- there are over 6 million trademarks, but only around 800 GIs (70% of which are wines and spirits). Briefly, there are enforceable rules to govern this. On Louisiana and Vietnam, the central issue in rules-based global trade is not about *charity* between two small communities. It's playing by the rules that both parties have committed to internationally for what they hope to be large, mutually beneficial gains at the national level. And such commitments have generally been towards reducing trade barriers and doing away with protectionism. On the Catfish issue, the US is moving away from these very principles that it otherwise champions with zeal (understanable local politics, and the whole beauty of making international commitments is that it shields you from domestic pressures such as this from back-tracking). Sure there will be losers and winners in the short term, but it's the aggregate national interest that motivates negotiations. Loiusiana may suffer in the short term, but it's the US government's job to take care of those structural dislocations resulting from competition from outside (as with steel, or farmers competing on the strength of subsidies). US will similarly be gaining abroad in areas it's good at -- software, aeroplanes, and hollywood movies, to name just three of its famous exports. ------ Suna, please continue to pour your warm and witty thoughts. I, for one, always read and enjoy them. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 04-Sep-02 09:40 PM
Paschim: You bring refreshing September 4th news. And otherwise too, your informed perspectives enlighten. On this very important topic of free trade. And you make the effort to connect the dots to show the relevance to the Nepali context of the same. Thanks. But that also makes me want to ask some questions on a similar topic: a possible South Asian economic union. (1) How ambitious and successful has SAPTA been? (2) Has any South Asian government broached the possibility of something more ambitious like a regional economic union? (3) Do you think that would be a good idea? Why? Why not? (4) If it would, what would you have to say to those who think that might be a "desh bechne" idea? (5) Are the South Asian economies too immature as they stand for such a concept? (6) Is the European Union a model? Or is it more a failed model and some different approach will have to be sought? (7) What is the homework that the South Asian countries will have to do to talk of such an union? (8) What are the advantages? Disadvantages? (9) Or are you from the school of thought that says global free trade is what counts, forget the regional outfits? (10) Please inform. |
| SITARA | Posted
on 07-Sep-02 12:17 PM
Suna; Here is another angle to "ignorance is Bliss!" "Selectively informed is also a state of ignorant bliss!" As for Britney;.....if we can listen to "a horse with no name" (top of the oops!) we can also listen to "oops, I did it again!" but ignore the oops without tripping on the oo'!!! Here, zero means null, void, a state of brief and selective enlightnment!!!! :) Back to CATFISH and the racism against immigrant Cats as well as Fish!!! Paramendra ji...did you hear that? Racism DOES exist against immigrant population of the Fishy Feline people!!!.... Any theories on Sexism applicable on this one????? :P Paschim ji ...sorry!! :) |
| paramendra | Posted
on 07-Sep-02 03:55 PM
Globalization and its Discontents ... The institutions are dominated not just by the wealthiest countries but by commercial and financial interests in those countries... Globalization today is not working for many of the world's poor. It is not working for much of the environment. It is not working for the stability of the global economy. ..........The problem is not with globalization but how it has been managed...... |
| czar | Posted
on 07-Sep-02 04:14 PM
In the late 70’s, post-Vietnam, America experienced an influx of Lao, Cambodian and Vietnamese refugees. That lot included shrimp and cat-fish farmers from the Mekong delta. A particular concentration of them wound up along the Louisiana coast and adjacent areas along the gulf. Initially, the newcomers posed no threat to the locally establishment. Their industrious and frugal ways, however, made a difference and in a few years by the mid 80’s they started looking prosperous. Dropping yields in the gulf due environmental conditions meant fiercer competition for fish stock. That did not sit well with the local population. Poisoned shrimp beds, burnt boats and smashed stores resulted. Curiously, all of the damage occurred to Asian businesses primarily Vietnamese owned, their former comrades in arms against the proxy war of the Evil Empire. A little more than a decade later, the catfish battle resurfaced, this time under the guise of ‘will the real catfish please raise a whisker.’ Same fight, same folks, different day. Mighty fishy goin ons, ah declare. |
| paramendra | Posted
on 07-Sep-02 04:26 PM
"...Poisoned shrimp beds, burnt boats and smashed stores resulted...." The disagreement was that my accusation of racism does not hold water. Well, this amounts to one notch higher: hate crime. "...‘will the real catfish please raise a whisker.’ ..." Well said. |
| Poonte | Posted
on 07-Sep-02 08:59 PM
Paschim bhanya uhi purano paschime dai ho? |
| ArafatKoShuvchintak | Posted
on 07-Sep-02 09:07 PM
PS: Viva Filistin! |
| Paschim | Posted
on 09-Oct-02 05:06 AM
Since this thread has been on "international trade", thought I'd post an interesting speech by the US Trade Representative, Ambassador Robert Zoellick, delivered at the National Press Club in Washington last week. I think people who follow trade and globalization issues will find this of interest -- it was described to me as "the clearest, most comprehensive yet succinct, description of current U.S. trade policy concerns and objectives in over 20 years". http://www.ustr.gov/speech-test/zoellick/zoellick_26-npc.PDF Globalization, Trade, and Economic Security by Robert Zoellick, USTR Remarks at the National Press Club, 1 October. ----- Czar, thanks for that info above. Fascinating, and I had no idea of that old facet of this "new" problem. |
| dirk | Posted
on 09-Oct-02 08:17 AM
Now Czar, tell me how the expression "Holy Catfish" came to be? |
| paramendra | Posted
on 09-Oct-02 05:40 PM
|
| paramendra | Posted
on 09-Oct-02 05:40 PM
http://www.geocities.com/paramendra/cat.jpg |
| czar | Posted
on 13-Oct-02 12:36 PM
Yo, Parmen, think you can provide a Link or two for Dirk to check out "holy catfish?" Jes don't string him up on it will ya, mi capo di regime ? :) Dirk: Al diMeola may have a gig in NY early Nov, jest in case you're interested. Paschim: Cheers ! Happy Dashain to all. |
| SITARA | Posted
on 13-Oct-02 06:55 PM
Dirk ji "Holy Catfish" is a metaphor for "Holy Cow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" :P |